REPORT.

THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to take into consideration the Petition of Mr. MᶜAdam, and to report to the House, whether any and what further pecuniary Grant shall be made to him, either by way of payment of his Expenses or as a remuneration for his Services, for having introduced into practice an improved System of constructing and repairing the Public Roads of the Kingdom, or for the management of the Funds applicable to the same;—Have, pursuant to the Order of the House, examined the matters to them referred, and have agreed upon the following REPORT:

In presenting to the House the result of their inquiry into the claim preferred by Mr. MᶜAdam for a compensation for his services, in consequence of his having devised and introduced into practice an improved and economical system of repairing, making and managing the Turnpike Roads of the Kingdom; your Committee will notice, in the first place, the proceedings which have taken place upon this subject previous to the institution of the inquiry in which they have been engaged.

It appears from the correspondence and documents obtained from the Treasury, as well as from the Reports of former Committees of the House, appointed to inquire into the state of the Highways of the Kingdom, that the first application made by Mr. MᶜAdam for payment of his expenses, and remuneration for his services, was in November 1819. This application was referred by the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty’s Treasury, by letter, to the Postmasters General, for explanation and information; who, in reply, transmitted a Report from Mr. Johnson, the Superintendent of Mailcoaches, stating as follows:—

“As I travel rapidly over great distances, and my attention is usually much occupied with the immediate business of the office, I cannot speak with accuracy about particular and local alterations; but I feel myself well warranted in stating, that whenever I have found any thing done under Mr. MᶜAdam’s immediate direction, or by his pupils, or even in imitation of his plan and principles, the improvement has been most decisive, and the superiority over the common method of repairing roads most evident; and, as Superintendent of Mailcoaches, I have abundant reason to wish that Mr. MᶜAdam’s principles were acted upon very generally: if they were, a pace which in winter, or any bad weather, cannot be accomplished without difficulty, would become perfectly easy; to say nothing of the comfort and safety of the traveller, and the credit to humanity in lessening the labour of the animals. I may add, although so much has been accomplished, the Postmasters General could still expedite the conveyance of the Mails, and bring the arrangement of the Posts nearer to perfection, if the Roads were universally as much improved as the practice of Mr. MᶜAdam’s plan would effect.

(Signed) Cha. Johnson.”

General Post Office, }

Dec. 8, 1819.” }

“As one instance of the benefit of Mr. MᶜAdam’s improvement, I beg to mention that the Mail last winter lost ten, fifteen, and twenty minutes, in passing from Staines to Bagshot; but now the time is exactly kept.

(Signed) C. J.”

And the Post Masters General also concluded their Report to the Treasury by observing, “That with respect to the road near Staines, to which he alludes, we had found it necessary to give notice of indictment, which has been prevented by the Commissioners resorting to Mr. MᶜAdam’s assistance and advice, which has produced the excellent road mentioned by the Superintendent.

“The Road from Newbury, through Reading, to Twyford, has been so much improved, that the Mailcoach has been better enabled to keep its time than heretofore, and we are convinced that if the roads near London were improved in a similar manner, considerable advantages would be obtained to the correspondence in general, but particularly in places from ninety to one hundred miles distant.”

In February, the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty’s Treasury received a representation from several noblemen and gentlemen, urging in very strong terms the claim of Mr. MᶜAdam to remuneration for the services he had rendered to the Public. This document, as well on account of the grounds upon which the remuneration is stated to have been merited, as also from its having been so numerously and respectively signed, well deserves the attention of the House. Mr. Harrison, by desire of their Lordships, transmitted this certificate with a letter to the Postmasters General; in which, amongst other observations, and alluding to the recommendation in favour of Mr. MᶜAdam before mentioned, he writes as follows:—“These testimonials are of so highly respectable a nature from the station and character of the individuals who have signed them, and are so decisive as to the merit, not only of the system itself, but also of Mr. MᶜAdam’s personal labours and exertions in reducing it into practice; and as to the great advantages which the Public have already derived therefrom on several important lines of road in different parts of the Kingdom, that my Lords could not hesitate a moment in affording to any application, which Mr. MᶜAdam may be advised to make to Parliament for remuneration for these services, their perfect and entire concurrence.”

And the Postmasters General in the same letter are directed, after taking into their consideration these testimonials, together with any subsequent information they may have acquired, to report whether the sum of 2,000l. or any other sum might, in their opinion, be advanced to Mr. MᶜAdam, to relieve him from the difficulties under which he then laboured, and until the pleasure of Parliament shall be obtained; to which the Postmasters General reply by letter of 23d February 1820, in still stronger terms of commendation of the services of Mr. MᶜAdam, stating that “they consider Mr. MᶜAdam’s system of making and repairing roads as deserving of every encouragement, that its beneficial results are acknowledged in every part of the various districts of the country where the trustees of roads have availed themselves of his assistance and suggestions, that he has in the most disinterested manner given every facility to other persons with the same general object; and that the observations of their Surveyor of Mailcoaches, enclosed in their Report of the 20th December, have acquired additional force from the experience of the last two months, in which the mail coaches have had to contend with unusual difficulties; for it has been evident on such parts of roads where Mr. MᶜAdam’s system has been pursued, the public mails have experienced less interruption than where the old system was persisted in; and their Lordships conclude their letter by recommending the advance of 2000l.”

In the session of 1819, a Select Committee was appointed to take into consideration the Acts in force regarding the Turnpike Roads and Highways of the Kingdom, and the expediency of additional regulations for their better repair and preservation. This Committee reported, in the most decided terms, as to the success of Mr. MᶜAdam’s system. The following is a short extract from that Report: “The admirable state of repair into which the roads under Mr. MᶜAdam’s system were brought attracted very general attention, and induced the commissioners of various districts to apply for his assistance or advice. The general testimony borne to his complete success wherever he has been employed, and the proof that his improvements have been attended with an actual reduction of expense, while they have afforded the most useful employment to the poor, induce your Committee to attach a high degree of importance to that which he has already accomplished. The imitations of his plans are rendered easy by their simplicity, and by the candour with which he has explained them, although ability in the surveyor to judge of their application must be understood as an essential requisite.”

In session 1820, Mr. MᶜAdam presented a petition to Parliament, praying for the payment of his expenses, and such reward for his services as the House in its justice and wisdom should think fit to grant. This petition was referred for consideration to the Select Committee then sitting upon the state of the Highways, who had the account of Mr. MᶜAdam’s expenses up to 1814 submitted to them; and from which account it appears, that the distance travelled by Mr. MᶜAdam was 30,000 miles, and that there were 1,920 days employed in this service; that reckoning by the rules of allowance made by the Post Office to their surveyors, the expense of the above travelling amounted to the sum of 5,019l. 6s. which sum Mr. MᶜAdam states to have been expended by him on this service up to August 1814.

Mr. MᶜAdam further states, in his Evidence before the Committee; “This account is made from memoranda in my possession, and I have made the same with such care and attention, that I am ready to make oath that it is to the best of my knowledge and belief correct, whenever I may be required so to do.” Which he afterwards did in the following terms:

“I, John Loudon MᶜAdam, do hereby voluntarily make oath that the above-mentioned account delivered by me to the Committee on Turnpike Roads and Highways, is to the best of my knowledge and belief correct.”

“Witness my hand this 8th day of March 1821.

(Signed) Jno. Loudon MᶜAdam.”

“Sworn before me at Pontefract, }

8th March 1821. }

(Signed) G. Alderson, Alderman.”

Your Committee, in their Report of the 18th of July 1820, state as follows:

“The attention of your Committee has been directed to the claim of Mr. John Loudon MᶜAdam for public remuneration, contained in his petition referred to them by the House.

“Your Committee apprehend, that the ability, industry and zeal of Mr. MᶜAdam in his successful pursuit of the best means for constructing roads are become matters of general notoriety. It appears that Mr. MᶜAdam first directed the public attention to this important fact, that angular fragments of hard materials, sufficiently reduced in size, will coalesce or bind, without other mixture, into a compacted mass of stone nearly impenetrable to water, which being laid almost flat, so as to allow of carriages passing freely upon all parts of the road, will wear evenly throughout, not exhibiting the appearance of ruts or of any other inequalities. This principle, once brought under notice, may appear sufficiently obvious; but Mr. MᶜAdam has had the honour at much expense of labour, of time, and of his private fortune, to bring it into practice on an extensive scale.

“Your Committee are therefore clearly of opinion, that Mr. MᶜAdam is entitled to reward, and they approve of the advance made to him by the Postmaster General, under sanction of the Treasury. Your Committee have called for the correspondence which passed upon that occasion. They have examined Mr. Freeling, Chief Secretary to the Post Office; Mr. Johnson, Surveyor or Superintendent of Mailcoaches; and they have received statements from Mr. MᶜAdam, in support of his further claim, all of which they insert in the Appendix; and after a full investigation of the matters submitted to them, your Committee are of opinion, that Mr. MᶜAdam is entitled to further reward for his services, but they think it much better in all respects to leave the amount to the Post Office, than to mention any specific sum themselves.

“While every individual throughout the nation, and almost every concern is benefited by good roads, the Post Office derives peculiar and more direct advantage from them, combined with constant and accurate intelligence respecting their state; your Committee, therefore, consider the Post Office best able to form a correct opinion upon the subject, and they moreover feel that a debt is due from the revenue of the Post Office, to be paid on any extraordinary occasion to the Roads of Great Britain, a debt contracted by the exemption, however properly given, of their carriages from toll.

“On all these grounds your Committee think it right to refer the Petition of Mr. MᶜAdam to the Postmasters General, under the sanction of the Treasury, with their favourable recommendation.”

And in the Appendix to that Report it will be found from the Evidence of Mr. Freeling, “That the Post Office did not take Mr. MᶜAdam’s services into consideration, or suppose that 2,000l. would be a sufficient remuneration for those services; they merely stated, in answer to papers from the Treasury, that they considered it would be right to advance to Mr. MᶜAdam the sum of 2,000l. and consider Mr. MᶜAdam’s claims as establishing a ground for further remuneration.”

In consequence of that Report the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty’s Treasury again, on the 23d of September, refer the subject to the Postmasters General, who, considering the first sum of 5,019l. 6s. to be admitted as proved before the Committee, recommended the payment of his expenses from 1814, to be calculated upon the same principle as the travelling allowance is made to the Superintendent of the Mailcoaches, amounting to 1,837l. 17s. 6d. and they further propose the sum of 2,000l. or 2,500l. to be granted to Mr. MᶜAdam, as a moderate compensation for his services; upon this the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury issued a second sum of 2,000l. stating that their Lordships, adverting to the large amount of Mr. MᶜAdam’s claims, cannot feel themselves justified in issuing any further sum to him on account thereof, without the express authority of Parliament for that purpose. On the 5th December 1820, Mr. MᶜAdam again addressed a letter to the Lords of the Treasury, which was transmitted to the Post Office; and the Postmasters General, referring to their former letter, observe that they have no difficulty in bearing their testimony to the services of Mr. MᶜAdam, and to the benefits which the Public were likely to derive from them, and also stated that in their opinions the charges were reasonable.

The last Memorial presented by Mr. MᶜAdam was to the Postmasters General, who, in transmitting it to the Treasury, observe, “The favourable opinions which we entertained and expressed in our former Reports upon this subject have been confirmed by experience; and that by employing Mr. MᶜAdam to survey the roads in Lancashire the most beneficial results are likely to follow.”

Having thus given a succinct and connected account of these different proceedings, and having taken into their consideration the whole of the correspondence which has passed previous to this inquiry between the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty’s Treasury and the Postmasters General, together with the several Memorials presented at different periods to these departments by the Petitioner, with the documents accompanying them, and having considered Mr. MᶜAdam’s statement of his case, and the proof adduced in support of it, which accompany this Report, your Committee are of opinion that Mr. MᶜAdam has, by means of great assiduity, skill, and many years personal labour, and at a considerable expense, out of his private property, introduced into very extensive practice a system of repairing, making and managing the turnpike roads and highways of the kingdom, from which the Public have derived most important and valuable advantages.

That in addition to the notoriety of the fact, that the improved condition of the public roads is in a great degree to be ascribed to the ability, zeal, and indefatigable exertions of Mr. MᶜAdam, it now for the first time appears, that Mr. MᶜAdam has gratuitously given his personal attention upon, and advice and assistance to, no less a number than seventy turnpike trusts in twenty-eight counties of the kingdom, from many of which he has not received the payment even of his expenses; that he has, for a considerable length of time, been engaged in an extensive correspondence with persons connected with the management and improvement of roads, affording, in the most unreserved manner, information and instruction wherever required; and that he has attended, during several sessions of Parliament, the Committee of this House, for the same purpose of communicating information: all which services, together with the assistance he has been called upon to give to the Post Office, he has rendered without reward or pecuniary compensation of any kind, beyond the sum of 4,000l. advanced to him by the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, in part payment of his expenses.

Looking to the result of these services as affecting the community at large; the increase of comfort, convenience and safety to the Public generally; the diminution of expense in the wear and tear of carriages of all descriptions; the reduction of horse-labour, and consequent expense of horses; the relief the oppressive burthen of the poor rates, by the additional means created for employing the surplus labouring population of the encumbered parishes; the abolition in many instances of a great part, and in some, of the whole of the statute duty complained of by the agriculturists, and the very essential benefit to the agricultural, commercial and manufacturing classes, by the more easy and equal diffusion of the produce of the soil over the various parts of the kingdom; the free as well as rapid circulation of commercial capital, thereby adding greatly to the national wealth and prosperity which this system has materially contributed to effect; the Committee cannot hesitate to express their opinion, in concurrence with that already pronounced by the Heads of the Department of the Post Office, that the sum of 2,000l. or 2,500l., in addition to his expenses, to be calculated after the same rate of allowance as is granted by that office to the Surveyor or Superintendent of Mailcoaches, will be but a moderate compensation to Mr. MᶜAdam for his great exertions and very valuable services.

The Committee, with a view to abridge the Appendix, have omitted to include several testimonials forwarded to them from different innkeepers and postmasters, stating the advantages they have derived from the improvement of the roads under Mr. MᶜAdam’s system; but which tend to confirm the general opinion favourable to the system.

It appears that Mr. MᶜAdam has held, from the year 1816 to the present time, and now holds, the situation of general surveyor of the Bristol Turnpike Roads at a salary, the first year, of 400l. and each subsequent year, of 500l.; but taking into consideration, that out of his annual salary 200l. is for expenses incident to his Office, the remaining sum of 300l. is, in the opinion of this Committee, not more than an adequate payment for the constant and laborious duties attached to the situation, and cannot, or ought not, to be considered as constituting any remuneration to Mr. MᶜAdam for his other distinct and important services.

It further appears, that the three sons of Mr. MᶜAdam are employed as general surveyors upon various lines of road in different parts of the Kingdom; that they have been and are competitors with all other road surveyors, over whom they possess no other advantage than such as their superior intelligence, skill and industry entitle them to, having no exclusive or preferable privilege whatever; that they have improved, and at the same time have very considerably reduced the expense upon almost all the roads under their management; and that their incomes, when diminished by the necessary disbursements and payments to the persons acting under them, and their own expenses, cannot be deemed too large a sum for their own individual services; but, on the contrary, that they have returned to the Public for the amount of their gains a fair and full measure of benefit, by the personal activity, skill and labour so conspicuous in the management of the roads, and the funds of the trusts under their superintendence; that two of the three had relinquished situations of profit to afford their aid in giving effect to and carrying the system into execution, and are justly entitled to the fruits of their industry, and hard-earned incomes, without the participation of any other person; and it does not appear that the Petitioner has profited in any manner from the salaries allowed to his sons.

With respect to the petition of Mr. Wingrove, referred to your Committee, it appears, from the Petitioner’s own statement, that his object is a compensation for services which he considers himself individually to have rendered to the public, a claim which your Committee can neither investigate nor entertain, being foreign to the object of their inquiry; and no part of Mr. Wingrove’s statement appearing, in the opinion of your Committee, to affect the system of Mr. MᶜAdam, or impeach his claim to a remuneration for services performed, they feel it necessary only to present his evidence without further remark.

In like manner, and with the same observation, they may dismiss the petition of Mr. Lester, between the comparative merit of whose literary productions with those of Mr. MᶜAdam, and whether Mr. MᶜAdam has “infringed upon his literary property,” your Committee are not called upon to determine; nor is it within their province to pronounce an opinion upon the degree of merit belonging to Mr. Lester for the construction of the various models of machines exhibited to your Committee, and alleged by Mr. Lester to be applicable to, and useful for, the improvement of roads.

In conclusion, your Committee desire to state it as their opinion, that the value of Mr. MᶜAdam’s system, and consequently of his services, by no means appears to its full extent upon the roads under the immediate management of himself, or of his sons; but that the effect produced upon a considerable portion of the roads generally throughout the Kingdom, since the adoption of his system, has been manifest, and, as your Committee conceive, too apparent to escape the most common or indifferent observer; and further, that it must be obvious, from past experience, that a system from which so much good has been already derived, would, if extended over the whole face of the Kingdom, be productive of the most beneficial consequences both to the condition of the roads, and in effecting a reduction of the amount of the present enormous and improvident expenditure.

Your Committee would therefore strongly recommend to the House the consideration of the subject of making and managing the roads of the Kingdom in the course of the ensuing Session of Parliament, feeling convinced that whatever plausible appearance the plan may assume of appointing a large number of noblemen, gentlemen, farmers, and tradesmen, Commissioners of Roads, that the practice has everywhere been found to be at variance with the supposed efficiency of so large a number of irresponsible managers; and that the inevitable consequences of a continuance of this defective system will be, to involve the different trusts deeper in debt, and leave the roads without funds to preserve them in proper order.

Your Committee cannot close their Report without directing the attention of the House to that part of Mr. James MᶜAdam’s evidence, in which he states the practicability of converting the pavement of the streets of London into smooth and substantial roads; and your Committee have the satisfaction to inform the House that the experiment is about to be tried in two very different and distinct parts of the Metropolis, viz. in St. James’s Square, and over Westminster Bridge and its boundary. This most desirable improvement has, as appears from the evidence of Mr. MᶜAdam, senior, and from that of Mr. William MᶜAdam, already been tried, and completely succeeded (as is well known to many members of the House) both at Bristol and Exeter, and is in progress of execution upon the paved ways in the county of Lancaster.

The benefit to the inhabitants of this large City by such an important improvement, in all its various advantages of comfort, convenience, and economy, can scarcely be appreciated; and your Committee hope that the plan about to be tried in two separate parts of London will be found so far to succeed as to induce its adoption, at least in all the large streets of the Metropolis, observing, that they believe that it is a plan which Mr. MᶜAdam has for many years urged the adoption of, and, as constituting a part of his system, will be found mentioned in all his publications on the improved system of road-making.

20th June, 1823.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Mercurii, 28º die Maij, 1823.
SIR THOMAS BARING, BART.
In the Chair.

John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

You were formerly a magistrate, and commissioner of the roads in Scotland, were you not?—I was.

When did you first turn your attention to road making?—I was a commissioner and trustee of the roads in Scotland from the time of my return from America in the year 1783; and I naturally turned my attention to it there, because they had begun about twelve years before to make the roads turnpike, and they were carrying them on with considerable activity when I returned from America; and it appeared to me at that time, and all the time I was trustee, that there was a great deal of money expended needlessly, and with very little effect, on the roads, and that of course turned my attention to the cause. I began then to travel through different parts of the country to inspect the different managements of different parts of the road, first in Scotland, and then I went into England. In the year 1798, I came to live in England, at Bristol. I have no documents to prove my travelling before I came to reside in England in the year 1798. In 1798 I began to make it a sort of business. Without saying to any one what my object was, I travelled all over the country in different parts. I have a list of such of those places I travelled to that I happened to keep memorandums of, but I cannot possibly say all the places I travelled to.

How long were you occupied in travelling for the purpose of obtaining information for the construction of roads?—It was only occasional travelling of course. I had some other occupations and private affairs to look into. I began in the year 1798 to travel as often as I had leisure and convenience down to the time I took the charge of the Bristol roads, down to the year 1816, the beginning of 1816 or latter end of the year 1815.

What was the result of your observations and inquiry of the state of the roads?—I found the roads were extremely bad in all parts of Great Britain, as far back as the year 1798, and that very little improvement took place in them between that time and the year 1815, which I attributed to the ignorance of the persons who had the charge of them, the ignorance of the surveyors, the total want of science.

What were the objections which you found?—I found the materials so applied that the roads were all loose, and carriages, instead of passing over the roads, ploughed them; that was the general fault of the roads, and the loose state of the materials, I apprehend, was owing to the bad selection, the bad appropriation, and the unskilful laying of them. I came to that conclusion first, from observing that in some parts of the country where things were better managed, there were better roads; and I instanced the roads between Cross and Bridgewater, in Somersetshire; there I saw a better road than in most other parts of the country, and having inquired into their management, I found that they prepared their materials better. The next improvement that I saw in roads, was at Kendal, in Westmoreland, where I think the same result proceeded from the same cause. That led me to the conclusion, that under a better system of management a better road would be produced; and having gone to every part of the country, and inquired into the manner in which they made the roads, I formed a theory in my own mind. This theory I got leave to put in practice by being appointed to the care of the Bristol roads, of which I was a commissioner in January 1816.

Did you make any inquiry into the expenditure of money upon those roads, that you found in so bad a state?—I did.

What was the result of that inquiry?—I generally found that the expense was in proportion to the badness of the roads, not to their good quality, but as the roads were bad and badly managed the expense increased, and I found few roads that were not deeply in debt and in distress for money.

In what did the improvident expenditure consist?—I think principally in carting great quantities of unprepared materials, and putting them into the roads where they were not wanted; that was one source of needless expense; and then the materials being put in so bad a state did not last; the road went soon to pieces. I believe there was a great deal of other kind of prodigality, of a worse character than carelessness.

Did you find a larger quantity of materials put in the road than was necessary?—I did, in most instances; a much larger quantity than was necessary.

Did you discover, in any of the roads, that there were materials sufficient, if raised, to make a good road, without putting on the additional, quantity?—In a very great number, I think the greater number, I found a sufficient quantity of materials for giving them one good making, without any further addition.

Were these the whole of your observations on the state of the roads?—No. It is not very easy to explain to gentlemen, exactly, the particulars that I know to be wrong in roads; I found the water-ways, and things connected with keeping the roads dry, exceedingly neglected in the country.

Be so good as to state what defects you observed in the construction of the roads, besides those you have already mentioned?—I think the water-ways were extremely neglected, and the roads in general were covered with water, and many of them standing in wet. It was a practice formerly to dig a trench when they made the new road. There was a hollow way, and a great deal of the bad quality of roads in general was owing to the circumstance that the road was standing in water. I think that was one very great error formerly; but the roads were made upon no principle; there seemed to be no object; the persons who made them did not seem to understand there was some object to be gained; they had no other idea of mending a road than bringing a great quantity of material, and shooting it on the ground. When a road got into entire disrepair, the next thing was to bring a quantity of the same kind of unprepared material, and to shoot it upon the road.

Did you find that they made use of bad material when a better was to be procured?—I found that to be very universally the case, that the tops of the quarries, and that to be easily procured, was taken in general, and the best stone left behind. I am afraid that is too much the custom in the country still.

Did you find they put these materials on the road in an unprepared and unfit state?—I did; they were not broken, nor in many cases cleaned.

Have you any thing further to state with regard to the construction of the road?—No; I do not recollect any thing further I can state.

What inquiry did you make into the management of the funds of the different trusts?—I made it a business to inquire generally of the surveyors, workmen, and people on the roads, as to the expense of materials, cartage, day-labour, and then I took what pains I could with gentlemen of the country, to inquire into the state of the funds: with surveyors and other officers of trusts, I found a jealousy and an unwillingness every where to give me information. An unauthorized individual finds it extremely difficult to procure information of that sort, and I found it so; a very great unwillingness to inform.

What class of persons did you find in the situation of surveyors on the road?—Always, I think, almost without exception, very low people, many of them old servants, ruined tradesmen, people without that kind of energy and character which I think is absolutely necessary for such a service.

Did you make any inquiry into the mode of the performance of statute labour?—Yes; I inquired very particularly about that, and I found the statute labour, when called for, was sent by the farmer to the roads, but the people seldom did above half a day’s work; and though the farmer lost the service of his servants and team, the public did not get it; it was a heavier oppression on the country than benefit to the roads.

Did you find, in collecting the materials, that there was any deficiency, or any mismanagement, on the part of those who superintended it?—I had very great reason to believe, that in most instances the country was imposed on.

Have you any knowledge of it?—No, I have no knowledge; I had no legal means of taking such measures as should have made me so certain as to be able to give evidence to it.

What extent of turnpike road is there in England and Wales?—On my first examination before a Committee of this House, I stated my opinion to be 25,000 miles; but I see, from a corrected state of the returns made to parliament, which I made out, that the number is 24,599 miles.

Do you know what sum is annually expended upon these roads?—The annual income has been ascertained by the same returns to be 1,282,715l.

Can you state what part of the sum goes to the payment of the interest of the debt, and what is applied to the improvement of the road?—The mortgage debt in the kingdom is 6,036,502l.; but there is a large sum due to treasurers, and balances of interest, which is also bearing interest, amounting to 569,041l. The whole debt that bears interest is 6,605,543l.

What is the amount of tolls?—1,282,715l.

What do you compute the expense of statute labour at?—I never have made any guess at it; for two reasons, statute labour is so difficult to guess at; and the proportion given to the turnpike roads is so different in different parts of the country, under local Acts, and under the general Act; but in the roads under my management it amounts to about five per cent. of the toll-duty.

Mr. James MᶜAdam, Examined.

Have you in any instance tried the experiment of converting paved streets into roads?—I have in several instances taken up small pieces of pavement that I found upon the several road trusts, and substituted road. In the town of Stamford I took a piece up of considerable extent, which is now road instead of the pavement.

What has been the effect of the conversion of the pavement into road?—The expense has considerably diminished, and facility of travelling very considerably increased.

Has any suggestion been made to you of converting the pavement of any part of the streets of London into road?—I have been ordered, by the Parliamentary commissioners having charge of Westminster Bridge, to prepare an estimate and report, with a view to convert that pavement into a broken stone road, which documents I have furnished; and I have reason to believe that the same will be immediately carried into effect. I have been also directed by the trustees and proprietors of St. James’s square, to prepare (which I have done) the same documents, with a view to substitute a broken stone road in St. James’s square, in lieu of the present pavement.

What is your opinion of the effect that would be found from its being carried into execution in all the streets of London, as to the reduction of expense, and benefit generally to the public?—I consider that the expense would be most materially reduced; the convenience of passing over the surface, there could be no doubt, would be generally facilitated, and made more convenient, particularly in the great leading streets, such as Piccadilly, Pall-mall, Parliament street and Whitehall, and others of that description; the expense of the same weight of stone now put upon those streets as pavement would be obtained at infinitely less expense, in a different form, for the purpose of road-making.

Is it your plan to raise the present pavement, and convert that pavement into materials for making the road, or to bring new materials and dispose of the pavement?—For Westminster Bridge I recommended to the trustees to sell the present pavement, because as long as pavements continue to be generally used, stone in that shape and size will always be valuable, and the same weight of granite I could obtain for the formation of the road over the bridge at 10s. 6d. per ton, the present pavement being worth a guinea per ton; but were the streets of London generally taken up, pavement would of course become of less value, and it might be broken for the formation of the roads.

Is that pavement of a quality calculated to make good roads?—The best material in the kingdom.

What proportion would the pavement now used in the streets of London bear to the materials necessary to the formation of the roads?—There would be sufficient for the formation of a strong durable road in the first instance; and I estimate that a supply of materials for the future care of the road, for a considerable time, would be left.

Would that answer in all the small streets of the metropolis as well as for the large and open streets?—I think not so well in the very narrow streets, which are liable to water, and where, from the width of the street, the thoroughfare must necessarily be upon one given spot. I beg, however, to observe, that the thoroughfare in those streets is extremely small.

Would the dust be increased or diminished by this alteration?—I consider, that upon a well made stone road, with the same care of cleansing and watering that is given to the streets, that the annoyance from dust would be infinitely less; and a road is more susceptible of retaining the water than pavement.

What would be the proportion of the annual expense between the paved street and the road?—Taking seven years, during which time I calculate that the pavement gets worn out, I should think the annual expense of the road would not be one fifth part, because in that seven years the whole value of the pavement is nearly lost.

What would be the effect produced upon the necessity of raising the road for the purpose of alteration of the pipes and other works under the street?—At present, when this operation is necessary, a paviour, whose wages are from five to six shillings a-day, is required. Were the streets converted into stone roads, a labourer at eighteen-pence a-day would perform the same service; and by due care in laying the materials on one side, and the earth on the other, the injury to the road would be extremely small, and the spot would very soon become obliterated; whereas in raising a part of a paved street it is quite impossible ever to unite the piece so raised with the rest of the pavement.

Supposing the pavement to be converted into a road, in that case, would it be necessary, when any pipe was repairing, to stop up the way to prevent carriages and horses passing?—Certainly not more so than at present, as that circumstance must always depend upon the width of the street. In very narrow streets, where the pipe lies in the centre, a large opening is necessary; it would follow as a matter of course that the street must be stopped; but upon large streets one side would be left free.

Would not a repair be more rapidly executed, supposing the way to be a road instead of a street?—Were the streets converted into roads, the repair of the roads would be almost unknown to the public, and no stoppage whatever would take place; the repair of such roads would be limited to a one-inch coat at a time, which would scarcely be known to persons passing in carriages, and the great inconvenience at present constantly felt in every part of this large metropolis by the necessity of repaving the streets would cease.

You assume that the roads for the streets in London must be made with granite?—Most assuredly, I should never recommend any other material to be made use of for the roads in the town.

Mr. William MᶜAdam, further Examined.

Have you, in the course of your practice, converted any paved street into a road?—Yes, I have; Fore-street Hill, in Exeter, forms part of that turnpike trust; it is very steep, and was exceedingly slippery, so much so, that I never rode on horseback down it myself till it was converted into a stone road; it has been so for a year or two; it has answered every purpose, and stood remarkably well, and by being watered a little in very dry weather, I believe there is less inconvenience found from dust than when it was paved. I have heard some gentlemen say, that in coming up that hill with their carriages, it not being above a furlong and a half or two furlongs in length, they have saved from five to ten minutes time since it was made road; and I have heard coachmen say, that when they brought their horses quite cool to the bottom of that hill, they have been quite in a lather by the time they got to the top of it, from the terror of the horses in slipping about.

That was when it was paved?—Yes.

What kind of stone do you use for making that road?—The pebble of the country, picked from the gravel pits.

Have you converted any other part of Exeter from pavement into road?—There is no other part of Exeter under the care of the trust; but in consequence of the effect which the Chamber of Exeter saw in Fore-street, they have broken up a great many of the streets in Exeter, and, I believe, are proceeding gradually to do them all. In the town of Newton-Abbot there is a county bridge; the county have broken up the bridge bands, and converted it in a similar manner.

John Loudon MᶜAdam, Esq. further Examined.

Have you, in any instance, made the alteration stated by your sons?—Yes, I have; I found the suburbs of Bristol were entirely paved when I took charge of the roads of the district; those suburbs are within the jurisdiction of the commissioners for the care of turnpike roads; and I found the expense of paving was very heavy, and the effect very bad, and I at once took the whole pavement up, and broke the stone that I found there into a stone road, up to the jurisdiction of the magistrates.

Was that granite stone?—No, a kind of stone called the blue pennet in that county, and part of a light stone called Brandon Hill stone; both tolerably good stones: the blue pennet is certainly not so good as granite; the Brandon Hill stone, when broken, is pretty nearly as good as granite. But those suburbs having been taken up, and given great satisfaction the year before last, the magistrates took up half of the street, called Stoke’s Croft, which is the great entrance of the town from Gloucestershire. The inhabitants were very much afraid of dust; and therefore they requested the magistrates not to take up the whole of the street, but to make an experiment on one half of it, and after a year’s experiment they consented to the whole being taken up. When I left Bristol, which is now three months ago, they were busy taking up the remainder of that street; and I understood it was the intention of the magistrates to proceed gradually to take up a great number of other streets in the town.

Do you know what difference it has made in the expense?—That part of the suburbs that was lifted, and laid again with the same stone broken, cost 5d. a square yard for doing it. I took up the stone; I had nothing to purchase; the stone that came out of the streets fully made the road, and we had a little remaining for repair afterwards, and that operation cost 5d. a square yard; paving, in the city of Bristol, cost 5s. 6d. a square yard when stone is found by the paviour, and I believe they reckon the laying down to be eighteen-pence of that.

What would be the difference of expense annually between & paved street and a road?—I think that road required no repair for the first three years after it was done.

A paved street would require no repair for seven years after it was done?—I think we repaired it for about a fifth part of the money, when it required repair, that a pavement would have cost. We seldom find our streets in Bristol last above three years; the pavements become rugged, and full of holes, and so on; they are obliged to be taken up, and they relay them generally once in three years. There is another street in Bristol which has been taken up, but I cannot recollect the name of it; it goes from Stoke’s Croft to Kingston; it has been taken up by the magistrates, not under my direction.

Has any objection been taken by any person to the alteration that has been made at Bristol?—No, except the alarm that the inhabitants of Stone Croft had when it was begun to be done, and they got the magistrates to delay doing more than half of it till they were satisfied that it would not inconvenience them; and the circumstance of their sending a request to the magistrates to finish it induces me to believe that they were very much satisfied with the experiment. Park-street, in Bristol, has been done in that way for, I think, seventeen years; I was then a commissioner for watching and paving the streets of Bristol.

Who did it?—It was done at the expense of the commissioners for watching and paving, at my wish, and I certainly did superintend it, though I had nothing to do with it more than any other commissioner had. It is a street many gentlemen know very well; it is a public road from Bristol to the Park, and very steep; I believe it is a rise of three inches in a yard, and when paved was so very dangerous and slippery that many accidents arose from it, and now it is a very good road indeed, and I do not believe that it cost upon an average, since that alteration, more than one fourth of what it used to do.