TESTIMONY OF EUGENE FRANK ROBEL, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, JAY G. SYKES

Mr. Wheeler. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. Robel. E-u-g-e-n-e F-r-a-n-k R-o-b-e-l, Eugene Frank Robel.

Mr. Wheeler. When and where were you born, Mr. Robel?

Mr. Robel. I was born in Kit Carson County, Colo., on a homestead.

Mr. Wheeler. In what year?

Mr. Robel. 1911.

Mr. Wheeler. You are represented by counsel. Will he please identify himself for the record?

Mr. Sykes. Jay G. Sykes, Seattle.

Mr. Wheeler. Would you briefly advise the committee as to your education?

Mr. Robel. I have a high-school education and 2 years of university.

Mr. Wheeler. What university is that?

Mr. Robel. Moscow, Idaho—not Russia.

Mr. Wheeler. The University of Idaho?

Mr. Robel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Wheeler. How long have you lived in the city of Seattle?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. I came here the latter part of 1937, I believe. I have been here since.

Mr. Wheeler. Have you ever served in the Armed Forces of the United States?

Mr. Robel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Wheeler. In what branch?

Mr. Robel. United States Navy.

Mr. Wheeler. At what period of time were you in the United States Navy?

Mr. Robel. From 1933 to 1937.

Mr. Wheeler. Were you honorably discharged?

Mr. Robel. Yes, sir. I had a good-conduct discharge. I have the medal at home.

Mr. Wheeler. What is your employment record for the last 10 years?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. I worked for an oil company for my first 4 years in Seattle, General Petroleum Corp.

Mr. Wheeler. That would be 1937 to 1941?

Mr. Robel. I think that is approximately the figures. Then I worked as a machinist at various jobs.

Mr. Wheeler. Specifically, what jobs have you held as a machinist?

Mr. Robel. Mostly outside machinist, but at times maintenance.

Mr. Wheeler. For what companies have you worked?

Mr. Robel. I have worked for Todd’s, Pacific Iron Foundry, Isaacson Iron Works, and Sahlberg Equipment Co.

Mr. Wheeler. Where are you employed now?

Mr. Robel. Todd’s.

Mr. Wheeler. Todd Shipyards?

Mr. Robel. Yes, sir.

Mr. Wheeler. Are they engaged in defense work or defense contracts?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. I think so, indirectly. I don’t know how they get their contracts.

Mr. Wheeler. Do you have a security clearance?

Mr. Robel. No, sir.

Mr. Wheeler. Have you been denied security clearance?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. No, sir.

Mr. Wheeler. Are you a member of any labor union?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. On the advice of counsel, because to answer that might tend to incriminate me, I will have to invoke the fifth amendment and refuse to answer that.

Mr. Velde. May I again say you are not under any compulsion to take refuge under the fifth amendment. It is a privilege.

The question is do you invoke the fifth amendment?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. I do invoke it. I recognize I am not under compulsion, but I do invoke it because of the possibility that I might be incriminated.

Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, again let me say that I cannot possibly see how a membership in a labor union, admission that you are a member of a labor union, could possibly tend to incriminate a person, and I ask the Chair to direct the witness to answer the question.

Mr. Moulder. Certainly your being a member of a labor union could not in any way tend to incriminate you. So you are directed to answer that question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. Well, membership in a particular labor union might incriminate me, and that is the reason I invoke the fifth amendment. One question leads to another.

Mr. Moulder. It might lead to another question, but certainly if the other question would tend to incriminate you that is an entirely different matter. But the simple question as to whether or not you are a member of a legitimate labor union could in no way whatsoever tend to incriminate you.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. I wouldn’t like to waive my rights under the fifth amendment by answering a previous question and then be forced to answer another one. That is the reason I took the position that I do.

Mr. Moulder. Proceed.

Mr. Velde. Do you belong to any labor union? That was the original question of counsel.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. Because that question might lead to the particular labor organization that I belong to, I will decline to answer that question.

Mr. Velde. If it does lead to that question, you can then invoke your privilege under the fifth amendment of the Constitution.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. It is my understanding legally that I may waive my rights by answering one of these questions, and I don’t wish to waive my right to invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. Moulder. You certainly were not waiving your rights when you stated a moment ago you were employed and where you were employed.

Now if you belong to some labor organization in connection with your employment there is nothing in that connection certainly that would tend to incriminate you, if you are employed or in legitimate employment.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. We are getting into complicated rights of waiver, and it is my understanding legally that I may refuse to answer.

Mr. Moulder. Do you decline to answer under the fifth amendment?

Mr. Robel. Under the fifth amendment, yes, sir.

Mr. Wheeler. Are you a member of the International Association of Machinists, A. F. of L.?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. I must invoke the fifth amendment, as previously, and refuse to answer that.

Mr. Moulder. I wish to say that for as long as I have served on this committee, a period of approximately 7 years, I have never heard anyone invoke the fifth amendment in response to a question as to whether or not he was a member of an A. F. of L. union.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. Proceed.

Mr. Wheeler. Are you acquainted or have you been acquainted in the past with Mrs. Barbara Hartle.

Mr. Robel. For the same reasons as previously given, that I might tend to incriminate myself, I will have to invoke the fifth amendment and refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Wheeler. Quoting her testimony before this committee, appearing on page 6094 of volume 2 of the hearings held in June 1954:

The Communist Party has always had a number of members in the machinists Union. Some of them that I can remember are Glenn Kinney, Ray Campbell, Frank Kerr, Gene Robel.

Was Mrs. Hartle advising the committee of the truth when she testified to that?

Mr. Robel. I must again invoke the fifth amendment for the previously stated reasons, and not admit or deny anything that any stool pigeon you may bring out says about me.

Mr. Moulder. To whom do you refer as a stool pigeon?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. I apologize for that statement, sir, and withdraw it.

Mr. Moulder. Ordinarily a person referred to as a stool pigeon is one who is an accuser of some fact against someone else, and that person ordinarily retorts that they are a stool pigeon.

You do withdraw that reference.

Mr. Wheeler. Mrs. Hartle also testified—and this reference to her testimony can be found on page 6173 of volume 3 of the hearings:

Gene Robel, whom I have mentioned before, and Glenn Kinney were also members of this industrial section.

Mr. Robel, the committee, in pursuance of its duties, is endeavoring to gain knowledge of the industrial section of the Communist Party in King County, and you, having been identified as a member of that section, is the reason you have been subpenaed here. We would like to get what information we can from you.

Now I would like to ask you:

Were you a member of the industrial section of the Communist Party?

Mr. Robel. I must invoke the fifth amendment for the same reason previously stated, and refuse to answer that question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Wheeler. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?

Mr. Robel. I must invoke the fifth amendment for the same reason and refuse to answer that question on the ground that I might incriminate myself.

Mr. Wheeler. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Moulder. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. Robel. I must, likewise, invoke the fifth amendment on that question, and refuse to answer, sir.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Velde, any questions?

Mr. Velde. No questions.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.

(Whereupon the witness was excused.)

Call the next witness, Mr. Wheeler.

Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Frank Kerr.

Mr. Sykes. Mr. Chairman, may I address the committee in respect to Mr. Kerr? There is a special problem involved with respect to Mr. Kerr.

Mr. Moulder. Yes.

STATEMENT OF JAY G. SYKES

Mr. Sykes. I would like to hand to Mr. Wheeler a statement from Dr. Beattie, and ask that the committee consider Mr. Kerr’s physical condition, and if it sees fit to have him examined by a county doctor.

Mr. Moulder. I notice that this is a letter written by Dr. John F. Beattie wherein he says that:

Mr. Frank Kerr has been under my care since January 12, 1954, because of coronary artery disease.

The letter does not state the patient was hospitalized in connection with his examination. It does not state he is now in the hospital. It is not very specific as to his exact illness, as to whether or not he is capable of appearing here as a witness without endangering his health or life.

Mr. Sykes. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. There was serious doubt in my mind, without knowing anything about the specific details of his illness, to be absolutely sure whether or not he should be examined by a doctor here, and if the doctor here should rule that he can testify I would have no objection. I thought that I should protect Mr. Kerr.

Mr. Moulder. This is very vague.

Mr. Sykes. That is correct.

Mr. Moulder. And very indefinite. We will take this under consideration.

Counsel, will you call another witness?

Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Harold Johnston.

Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Johnston. I do.