TESTIMONY OF JACK LAWRIE, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, C. T. HATTEN
Mr. Wheeler. Will the witness state his name, please.
Mr. Lawrie. My name is Jack Lawrie, Jr.
Mr. Wheeler. Will you spell the last name.
Mr. Lawrie. L-a-w-r-i-e.
Mr. Wheeler. When and where were you born, Mr. Lawrie?
Mr. Lawrie. I was born in 1921 in the city of Casper, Wyo., July 12.
Mr. Wheeler. And what is your educational background?
Mr. Lawrie. My education background is one of having graduated from grade school in the city of Seattle, and also Franklin High School in the city of Seattle.
And at this point I would like to raise a point of order.
Mr. Moulder. I would like to ask you a question.
Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lawrie. I would still have a point of order here that is in the rules of procedure, and I think the committee would certainly be interested in their own rules of procedure. And I would like to read article No. 10, which deals——
Mr. Moulder. Will you answer my question first?
Mr. Lawrie. Deals with rights of a person affected by a hearing. I am certainly affected by the hearing.
Mr. Moulder. I asked you a question if you are now or have ever been a member of the Communist Party. You may answer. Then you may have a point of order to raise when you answer to that question.
Mr. Velde. If he answers the question instead of refusing to answer.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lawrie. I am going to have to decline to answer that question. And the reason I am declining to answer that question is that, due to the many oppressive and repressive laws, both on the Federal and State level, I am going to invoke the first amendment and also the fifth amendment.
I would like to be able to read the first and fifth amendments from the Constitution of the United States. I believe we have a good Constitution, and I am sure—or at least this committee claims they are interested in the Constitution, and upholding the rights.
So I would like to read from the Constitution of the United States at this time.
Mr. Moulder. That won’t be necessary. We are familiar with the provisions of the Constitution. You have declined to answer on the first and fifth amendment.
Do you have any questions, Mr. Wheeler?
Mr. Wheeler. Would you relate briefly to the committee your employment record?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lawrie. You stated previously that you would give me a point of order if I answered the question.
Mr. Moulder. You didn’t answer the question.
Mr. Lawrie. I responded; I certainly responded to the question.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Wheeler, repeat your last question.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you relate briefly to the committee your employment record?
Mr. Lawrie. That was not the question that was put to me.
Mr. Wheeler. It is the last question I asked.
Mr. Moulder. This question is now being propounded to you.
Mr. Lawrie. That was not the question that he asked me to answer, and that I would get my point of order.
Mr. Velde. I think I can clear up the matter. The question he is referring to is the chairman’s question as to membership in the Communist Party at the present time or at any time in the past. And I think the Chair very well stated that if you answered the question instead of refusing to answer, invoking the first and fifth amendments, then you would be given an opportunity, as you put it, to make a point of order, which is not within your rights at all.
But now will you answer the question as to whether you were a member of the Communist Party or are now a member of the Communist Party? Let’s put it a different way. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lawrie. I still would like to raise my point of order, and I think that I have that right, because, after all, this is your rules of procedure, and I think you would be interested in it, interested in that question. I didn’t write the rules of procedure. You gentlemen were the ones that helped to draw that up.
Mr. Velde. The chairman gave you a great privilege by allowing you to answer the question “Yes” or “No,” and then by giving you the right to spout off about our rules and regulations, which we know very well. And we know about the Constitution.
Now it seems to me that any person who is interested in preserving the Constitution against encroachment from our prospective enemies would be willing to answer the question as to whether or not he was a member of the Communist Party or ever had been a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Lawrie. As I stated before, I still think that, as you pointed out, you are interested in the Constitution. And I certainly think you should grant a witness here, after all, that is here at your own invitation—not at his own request—he certainly should be granted the right to raise a point of order, and if the committee feels that—in my opinion they should feel that a witness should be granted that right.
Mr. Moulder. Let me say you are a witness who has been duly subpenaed here. You are under oath to answer certain questions. You have the privilege under the Constitution to decline to answer.
We are not going to be engaged with you in an argument concerning the Constitution or the rules of the committee.
Now certain questions will be propounded to you by Mr. Wheeler. You have the right as an American citizen to claim privilege under the Constitution, which I assume you are about to do. You are certainly not going to be permitted to enter into a soapbox argument with this committee.
Proceed, Mr. Wheeler.
Mr. Wheeler. Would you briefly relate your employment record for the last 10 years?
Mr. Lawrie. I don’t see any basis for the honorable gentleman’s statement. I still think that I have the right to raise my point of order.
Mr. Moulder. You are directed to answer the question propounded to you.
Mr. Lawrie. I still think I have——
Mr. Moulder. Ask the next question.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lawrie. What was the question?
Mr. Moulder. You haven’t answered it.
Mr. Lawrie. I am asking the question.
Mr. Moulder. You made a statement you were refusing to answer without giving the legal reason for refusing to answer. I am directing the examiner to proceed with the next question because you have refused to answer it without cause.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lawrie. I will have to state that I didn’t understand the previous question.
Mr. Moulder. Do you understand the present question?
Mr. Wheeler. I think the record will show that my question was asked three times.
The question now is: Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle?
Mr. Lawrie. Well, with reference to the last two questions, I am——
Mr. Moulder. We are not making reference to the last two questions. He has asked you a simple question now, and you are directed to answer.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lawrie. With reference to that question on Barbara Hartle and the previous question, I am going to invoke both the first and the fifth amendment which states that an individual is not compelled to be a witness against himself and shall not be deprived of liberty or property without due process of law.
Mr. Moulder. The next question, please, Mr. Wheeler.
Mr. Wheeler. Where are you presently employed?
Mr. Lawrie. I am going to answer that question in this way: During the time the committee was here—I believe it was last June—I read in the newspapers where a number of workers, men and women, lost their jobs.
Mr. Moulder. You are not responding to the question. You must be responsive to the question and not take the question as an excuse for making a speech.
Now the question is: Where are you now employed? Do you decline to answer?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Moulder. Give him a reasonable time to decline or answer, and proceed with the next question.
Mr. Lawrie. At this time I am going to request that I be allowed to talk to my attorney.
Mr. Moulder. Very well. You will have an opportunity to confer with your attorney.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Wheeler. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Witness?
Mr. Lawrie. I am ready to proceed.
I would like to know if I can state my reasons for not answering this question.
Mr. Moulder. Certainly, if it is not at great length in the form of a speech. Or, you may decline to answer claiming and invoking the first amendment, as you have.
Mr. Lawrie. I don’t think that it will be long, but that is my opinion.
I state again, as I stated before, because of many workers losing their jobs because they were mentioned by this committee or in some subpena, I believe that I have the right to earn a living, and that this committee may be responsible for my losing my job to make a living. And I would like to decline from answering that question, but if the committee compels me to, I will.
Mr. Velde. In that connection, have you ever made a living by being a member of the Communist Party? Has the Communist Party paid you anything for being a member of it?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lawrie. I am going to refuse to answer any questions that refer to communism—in this committee under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Wheeler. Where are you presently employed?
Mr. Lawrie. I am going to make the same statement as I made before, that, due to the fact that many working people were fired from their jobs at the last hearing, that I am liable to the same thing happening to me, lose my source of income and——
Mr. Wheeler. Were you fired from your job after the hearings here last June?
Mr. Lawrie. No, not I, because I wasn’t here.
Mr. Wheeler. Where were you?
Mr. Lawrie. I was working.
Mr. Wheeler. Where?
Mr. Lawrie. I am going to have to speak to my counsel for a second.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Wheeler. Were you on an underground assignment at that time for the Communist Party?
Mr. Lawrie. I said I would like to speak to my counsel at the present time.
Mr. Moulder. You may confer with your counsel.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lawrie. I am through conferring with counsel.
It seems to me that there are two questions. One is where I am working now. And the other is did I have anything to do with the Communist underground.
Mr. Wheeler. You weren’t responsive to the first question. We are now proceeding along with the interrogation to another question.
Mr. Lawrie. Which question are you asking now?
Mr. Wheeler. I am asking if you were on an underground assignment for the Communist Party last June.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lawrie. Well, if it will help the committee any, as I said in the beginning, that any and all questions that I am going to have to—due to the many oppressive and repressive laws, both on the Federal and State level, I am going to have to invoke the first amendment and the fifth amendment, which have to do with communism or anything of that category.
Mr. Wheeler. Where were you last June? What part of the country? Where were you residing?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Wheeler. Let the record show that he is conferring with counsel.
Mr. Lawrie. I was in the State of Washington.
Mr. Wheeler. What part of Washington?
Mr. Lawrie. I would say it was Everett.
Mr. Wheeler. Now, Mrs. Hartle identified you as organizational secretary of the central region of the Communist Party during some time in the last few years.
Mr. Lawrie. Are you referring to a possible future Harvey Matusow, one that swears one thing one day and then, the next day, swears something else?
Mr. Moulder. But you are refusing to deny or affirm the charges. You have the opportunity to show that Barbara Hartle, referred to by you as a so-called Matusow, was telling a falsehood. But you are refusing to do that. You refuse to say whether she is telling a falsehood or telling the truth.
Mr. Lawrie. If it will help this committee any, as I stated before, that, due to the many oppressive and repressive laws, both on the Federal and State level, I am going to decline to answer that question under the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed with the next question.
Mr. Wheeler. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lawrie. The same answer.
Mr. Wheeler. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. I do want to make this observation. Here again we have a witness who follows the usual line of the Communist Party.
It is my belief that the witness, from his behavior on the witness stand, is presently engaged in Communist Party activities. I feel it is improbable that you will change your mind from the attitude you have taken.
I very much regret to say that I do feel you are engaged at the present time in activities which are harmful to the preservation of our constitutional form of government.
Mr. Moulder. May I ask did you ever answer the question as to where you were now employed?
Was that question ever answered?
Mr. Wheeler. No.
Mr. Moulder. Then I ask you that question. Where are you now employed?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Lawrie. I am employed at the present time by the Weyerhauser Timber Co.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
(Whereupon the witness was excused.)
Mr. Moulder. Call the next witness.
Mr. Wheeler. Edward Brook Carmichael.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr. Carmichael. I do.