Investigation of Communist activities in Seattle, Wash., area. Hearings, Part 3

by United States. Congress. House. Committee on Un-American Activities

TESTIMONY OF JEREMIAH JOSEPH O’CONNELL

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir?

Mr. O’Connell. Jeremiah Joseph O’Connell.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you also known by the name of Jeremiah J. O’Connell?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, I would presume that my baptismal name in the Catholic Church was probably Jeremiah J. O’Connell, but during grade school, high school, college, and law school, and in my political career I have always been known as Jerry J. O’Connell.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. O’Connell, you are acquainted with the practice of the committee to permit witnesses to be accompanied by counsel and to confer with counsel if a witness desires?

Mr. O’Connell. Yes, I understand that, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that you are not accompanied by counsel.

Mr. O’Connell. I had expected Senator Langer of North Dakota to appear with me, but his office notified me today he was out of town and wasn’t going to be able to get back until this afternoon, but I have worried about this thing, and I have been under tension about it, and I am anxious to get it over with.

Mr. Tavenner. You are satisfied, then, to proceed without having counsel with you?

Mr. O’Connell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Tavenner. Of course, should it develop at any point in your testimony you desire to consult counsel, you may address your request to the committee.

When and where were you born, Mr. O’Connell?

Mr. O’Connell. I was born in Butte, Mont., on October 4, 1908.

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside?

Mr. O’Connell. I now reside at Great Falls, Mont.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what your educational training has been?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, I received my grammar school education at St. Patrick’s School in Butte, Mont., my high school education at Butte Central Catholic High School in Butte, Mont., my liberal arts education at Mount St. Charles College, now known as Carroll College, where I graduated with an A. B. degree.

Mr. Tavenner. In what year did you graduate from that college?

Mr. O’Connell. 1931.

Mr. Tavenner. Where did you receive your A. B. degree?

Mr. O’Connell. Mount St. Charles College, now known as Carroll College, in Helena, Mont., in 1931.

Through the late Senator Thomas J. Walsh, of Montana, I obtained employment here in the District with the Democratic National Committee, later in 1931, and attended law school at Columbus Law School here in the District.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive a degree?

Mr. O’Connell. No; I did not. I was elected to the Legislature of the State of Montana in 1931, when I was only 21 years of age and while a senior at Mount St. Charles College. I came back here and went to law school and then in 1932 during the summer vacation I went back and sought renomination and reelection to the State legislature and was successful.

I served in the 1933 session of the State legislature. Also in a special session of the legislature in the latter part of 1933 and the early part of 1934.

In between I came back and continued taking law courses in between the legislative sessions and so on, and later studied law privately at home and in a law office at Butte, Mont., and then in 1934 I was elected to the State Railroad and Public Service Commission of Montana, which is a statewide elective office in the State, and then in 1936 I was elected to the 75th Congress of the United States from the First Western District of the State of Montana.

I served one term, from 1937 to 1939, and was defeated in the 1938 general elections. I won the Democratic nomination.

In 1940 I again won the Democratic nomination and was defeated in the 1940 election by Jeannette Rankin.

After my defeat I edited a statewide weekly newspaper called Jerry O’Connell’s Montana Liberal. I also was active politically and particularly in the organization of an old-age pension group in which I had the principal activity or principal organizational activity in the State.

Mr. Tavenner. Is that in the State of Montana?

Mr. O’Connell. That is right.

Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of the organization of the old-age pension group by you?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, I actually think that I—it is quite a long while ago now—it was 1939, if I remember correctly. I began holding meetings in various parts of the State and we were advancing a State, it was a State initiative for improvement of the pension situation as far as senior citizens were concerned in the State. I think that came out in 1938 campaign, I had originally been endorsed by the Townsend organization for reelection to Congress and then during the 1938 general elections Dr. Townsend flew from Hawaii into my district and made 3 speeches against me, 2 or 3 speeches. I am not sure which. And the result was a considerable division in the Townsend organization as it existed in the State then, and out of that I am pretty sure at that time there was a gentleman by the name of Arthur L. Johnson, who was promoting I think what he called the general welfare acts or general welfare plan, and on a State pattern, using that general welfare act we promoted a pension plan in the State of Montana on an initiative, we have an initiative law there.

Mr. Velde. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman.

You mentioned you studied law here at Columbus Law School and in a law office, I believe, in Butte, Mont.

Mr. O’Connell. Yes.

Mr. Velde. Did you pass the bar of the State of Montana?

Mr. O’Connell. Yes, I passed the bar of the State of Montana.

Mr. Velde. I do not think you mentioned that. When did that happen?

Mr. O’Connell. I actually didn’t pass the bar in Montana. I had been active politically and I didn’t pass the State bar examination until June 23, 1950.

Mr. Velde. Since that time you have been a practicing lawyer?

Mr. O’Connell. Since then I have been practicing law at Great Falls, Mont.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been admitted to practice in any State other than Montana?

Mr. O’Connell. No, I have not.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you held any other organizational positions of any character in the State of Montana or elsewhere?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, in I think about February 1944 I was appointed by Sidney Hillman as CIO political action director for the State of Montana, and in about August of 1944—in that year I was elected delegate to the Democratic National Convention from the State of Montana and attended the Chicago convention in that year.

In August of 1944 after the convention I was appointed assistant regional director for the CIO Political Action Committee with offices or headquarters at Seattle, Wash., under the director who was Roy W. Atkinson, and that region included Washington, Idaho, Oregon, and Montana.

After I went to the State of Washington, I became active particularly with—one of the principal activities of the CIO political action committee was to advance and encourage registration for voting in the 1944 elections and in the State of Washington, particularly along the West coast there was a considerable influx of war workers during that period who, of course, were unregistered and my principal activity preceding the actual beginning of that 1944 general campaign was bringing about registration by getting the city councils in the various larger cities, particularly in the State of Washington, to hold a registration week and opening up the schools and then after the campaign, as I was explaining, the city councils called a registration week where there was the extended registration campaign or program carried on, and after that I then became assistant regional director for the CIO political action committee active with the Democratic organization, particularly in the State of Washington and of course also to some extent in Idaho and I don’t think during that campaign at all that I appeared in the State of Oregon.

I was back in Montana a few times in that connection but I spent the principal part of that time working with the Democratic Party organization in the State of Washington.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any position in the Democratic organization in the State of Washington?

Mr. O’Connell. At that time I didn’t hold any. After the election—the Democratic Party was considerably successful in the State of Washington—and I think the Democratic Party leaders had a feeling that I had made a considerable contribution to the success which they had.

Within a few weeks after the election the Democratic Party leaders in that State discussed with me taking a full-time position with the Democratic Party in the State of Washington as executive secretary of the Democratic Party.

Mr. Tavenner. That began in 1944?

Mr. O’Connell. I was elected by the State central committee at Ellensburg, Wash., I think somewhere about in the middle of December 1944.

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you continue in that position?

Mr. O’Connell. I continued in that position then until December, actually I ended my term as executive secretary some time in the beginning of the year, January 1947.

In December 1946 a new Democratic State chairman was elected and he abolished the position of executive secretary and took the job and worked on the job on a full-time basis himself.

Mr. Tavenner. After that time did you hold an executive position with the Progressive Party?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, let me, in order to keep it in chronological order, I would like to say that after that election there was of course a considerable division in the Democratic Party over the results of the election which were quite disastrous for the Democratic Party in 1946, and there was a considerable cleavage among what was considered to be the conservative forces in the party and the liberal forces in the party and at the convention at Ellensburg in December of 1946 the conservative element or conservative forces in the Democratic Party were in control by a very slight margin.

The liberal forces in the Democratic Party then organized within the Democratic Party a group known as Roosevelt Democrats, and I was I think also called the executive secretary, or given the title, elected as executive secretary of the Roosevelt Democrats and I served in that position until April of 1948 when I resigned from the Democratic Party and actually began to work for the organization of the Progressive Party in the State of Washington. We had set up what we called a provisional committee for a new party. I had supported Henry Wallace for Vice President in the 1944 Democratic convention. I was a considerable admirer of his, and I joined with the people who were forming the Progressive Party, and I think then—I would say in probably May or June of 1948—the Progressive Party of the State of Washington was organized at a State convention in Seattle, Wash., and I was elected executive secretary of the Progressive Party at that convention, and I served in that capacity until October 1949, when I left the State of Washington and went back to the State of Montana and began studying law and preparing for the taking of the bar examinations which I eventually took.

Mr. Tavenner. After your return to the State of Montana in 1949 did you hold any other organizational positions?

Mr. O’Connell. No; I did not. On many occasions—in October of 1949 I had made up my mind that I had given the best years of my life to political activity. In July of 1949 Mrs. O’Connell and I had a young son after having been married about 13 years. Mrs. O’Connell had a very, very difficult time in giving birth to our son, and for 5 days her life was in danger. Her folks live at Great Falls, Mont. She is a native of Great Falls. She wanted to go back there to be with her folks. Up to that time I had always studied law with the idea of being an attorney and I wanted to be one and so we went back to the State of Montana and I have not been engaged in any partisan political organization or affairs of any kind since my return to the State of Montana.

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has information that after that time you became chairman of the National Committee to Defeat the Mundt Bill.

Mr. O’Connell. No. In 1948, I would say probably in June of 1948, while I was executive secretary of the Progressive Party of the State of Washington, I came down to the city of Washington here to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee, which was then considering the Mundt bill, which had already passed the House. We were to testify at a hearing before which I think Senator Ferguson was presiding and Senator Langer was sitting with him and apparently the hearings had gone on for several days and Senator Ferguson adjourned the hearings or at least announced there would be no further hearings at that time before many of us there had yet been heard.

Senator Langer then suggested that we go to his office, I think at that time he was chairman of the Committee on Post Office and Post Roads in the Senate, and we retired to his committee room. At that time we discussed particularly with him the situation as far as the Mundt bill was concerned and at his suggestion this committee to oppose the Mundt Bill was set up and at that particular meeting I was elected chairman of the group. Senator Langer, of course, had known me while I was in Congress and suggested——

Mr. Tavenner. What was the approximate date when you were selected as chairman of the committee?

Mr. O’Connell. My best recollection, my best guess would be some time in June of ’48.

Mr. Tavenner. You continued to serve as chairman of the National Committee to Defeat the Mundt Bill for how long a period?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, in 1948, if I remember correctly, the bill was not voted out of the Senate Judiciary Committee before the adjournment of Congress at that particular time. The bills as I remember were proposed again at the beginning of the next session of Congress and we continued to oppose the legislation at that time and then finally I think—if I remember correctly, in about, I would say, about March of 1950—I came down here again to the city of Washington. If I remember correctly, the bill had again passed the House of Representatives at that time although I am not too sure. I think it had.

I stayed here from I would say March—I remember I defended somebody at home in court at Great Falls and I came down here I would say in the latter part of March 1950 and I stayed until about the 9th or 10th day of June 1950 when I returned to Montana to bone up for the bar examination which I was taking on the 23d of June 1950.

I passed the bar examination at that time and I came back here again. My offhand guess would be that I came back again some time maybe in the latter part of July or first part of August of 1950 and stayed here until Congress adjourned sine die, I think somewhere around September, probably September 13.

Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time were you actively engaged in the work of the National Committee to Defeat the Mundt Bill?

Mr. O’Connell. Yes, sir.

Mr. Velde. Do I understand, Mr. O’Connell, that you continued in the 82d Congress the same type of work you were doing as far as the Mundt bill was concerned in the 81st Congress?

Mr. O’Connell. If those are the correct—

Mr. Velde. You were chairman of the committee.

Mr. O’Connell. I was chairman of the committee from the time I was selected in June of 1948 until the committee dissolved after the passage of the legislation over the President’s veto in September of 1950.

Mr. Velde. Of course, that would be the committee, I suppose, which was set up to defeat the McCarran-Wood bill.

Mr. O’Connell. The Mundt-Nixon bill was combined, I think it was combined by a proposal made by several of the Senators over there and also the McCarran Act, I can’t remember all the things that went on in connection with it now, but I think it became popularly called the McCarran Act, if I remember correctly.

Mr. Tavenner. The McCarran-Wood bill.

Mr. O’Connell. Yes. I think the language became the Internal Security Act.

Mr. Velde. Who composed the committee?

Mr. O’Connell. Actually the executive officers were myself as chairman, Robert Silverstein of the National Lawyers Guild as secretary, and Bruce Waybur, who was an official or an organizational employee of the United Electrical Workers[1] who was treasurer of the organization, and then the group was sponsored by various outstanding prominent individuals throughout the country. I can’t remember all of them now and all who from time to time——

Mr. Velde. If I remember correctly, after the bill was passed and became law there was a committee to repeal the McCarran-Wood Act, was there not?

Mr. O’Connell. I think there was, but I had nothing to do with it.

Mr. Tavenner. You had no part in it?

Mr. O’Connell. I had no part in it. I went back. I think Professor Chafee [Zechariah Chafee, Jr.] at Harvard and some others organized a committee to repeal the act after that, but I went back to Montana and I had nothing to do with it.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not you became regional director for the International Workers Order during the period of time——

Mr. O’Connell. No. I think that language that you use comes from an old report of the Dies committee. I was never regional director for the IWO. The only connection that I had with the IWO is that in the city of Butte the IWO had an affiliated local or lodge there composed of Serbs and Croats and there was considerable division particularly during the war period, World War II period, because if I remember correctly there was a religious difference. I think the Serbs in the organization were Protestants and the Croats were Catholics. There was a division then over the politics of the situation. I think there were some of them who were supporting Milhailovich at that time and some who were supporting Pavlich, if I remember the names correctly.

I was asked by—I am pretty sure the man’s name was Peter Shipka, who was the officer of the International Workers Order, who asked me if I would advise with the lodge and if I would help them try to straighten out the difficulties so that the lodge could go ahead.

After that I was sent down to the State of Colorado or asked by them to go down to the State of Colorado where I think about 11 members of the IWO had applied for their citizenship papers in a little town I think called Steamboat Springs, Colo., and the Federal judge who was hearing the citizenship matter at that time was in my opinion confusing the IWO with the IWW, and I was asked and again I wouldn’t be sure who the national officer of the IWO was, but my best recollection at the time—and I think that was in 1940 or 1941 or 1942, it was a long time ago—asked me to go down there and I talked with the judge and with the examiner and also brought a Mr. Cunningham who I think was either the State auditor or the secretary of state, but was ex officio commissioner of insurance of the State of Colorado, to show the judge the IWO was actually a fraternal benefit society and had no connection with the IWW.

Then later, I can’t remember what year, the IWO was promoting what they called a Plan for Plenty, which was in essence an improvement on the present social security, or I mean on the social security system as it existed at that time.

I made speeches at various IWO lodges in different parts of the country speaking on the Plan for Plenty, explaining the legislative detail in connection with it.

Mr. Tavenner. Who made arrangements with you to conduct this nationwide speaking tour that you mentioned?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, it is so long ago, it is hard for me—there are just two names that stick out in my memory as far as the IWO is concerned and the only two I can remember are Peter Shipka, the treasurer, and if I remember correctly they had an attorney named Joseph Brodsky. Those are the two names that stick out in my mind.

Mr. Tavenner. Was Joseph Brodsky from New York?

Mr. O’Connell. Yes; he was from New York.

Mr. Tavenner. What compensation did you receive while engaged in that work for the IWO?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, at the time it was very minimal, I can remember that. I would say that as far as—it would amount, in my opinion, for the small period of time I was involved, which I would say was a period of a few months, I would say on the average of about $200 a month. It was not very long.

Mr. Tavenner. And your expenses?

Mr. O’Connell. And my expenses; yes. As I remember, they were quite restrictive on the expenses; if I remember correctly.

Mr. Tavenner. Do I understand that your connection with the IWO was one of employment rather than one of an official character? Is that correct?

Mr. O’Connell. That is correct. I think that would be the best way to describe it.

Mr. Tavenner. For how long a period were you employed by the IWO?

Mr. O’Connell. My best recollection is that that employment was over a period of maybe 5 or 6 months. It might have been 7 or 8. It was not very long, and I don’t think I could put it in the precise year or years that were involved.

Mr. Tavenner. Was it resumed at a later date?

Mr. O’Connell. No; it was not resumed at any later date.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive any compensation or money from the IWO for anything other than the services you have mentioned?

Mr. O’Connell. No; I certainly don’t recollect any.

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether you had any employment since 1930 other than the positions you have already described and other than those matters related to the practice of law?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, going back in 1930, I was still a student in St. Charles College.

Mr. Tavenner. We can pass that up.

Mr. O’Connell. At Helena. Of course, during the summer months I was employed in the Anaconda Copper Mining Co.’s mines at Butte while I went to school. I think the summer of 1932 I was employed by the Industrial Accident Board of the State of Montana settling compensation cases during that period. I think I told about my employment with the Democratic National Committee while I was back here.

I also had some employment as legal adviser to the State income-tax division of the State board of equalization of the State of Montana while I was running for State railroad and public service commissioner in Montana and before my election to that post. Then I think I have detailed all of the rest of it.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. O’Connell, you spoke of being instrumental in organizing an old-age pension initiative, I believe you call it, in the State of Montana in 1939.

Mr. O’Connell. As I remember, we were trying to put it on the 1940 ballot in Montana.

Mr. Tavenner. You are familiar, I suppose, with the Washington State Pension Union?

Mr. O’Connell. Yes; I am. I would like to say that at the time I was organizing the clubs in Montana I knew nothing whatever of the existence of the Washington Pension Union of the State of Washington, or any of its officers, or anybody connected with it. My first connection with the organization and the group was when I went to the State of Washington in 1944. Those contacts were made in my position as executive secretary of the Democratic Party.

Mr. Tavenner. You were also familiar, of course, with the Washington Commonwealth Federation, were you not?

Mr. O’Connell. I really couldn’t say that I was, Mr. Tavenner. I think the Washington Commonwealth Federation was still in existence when I went to the State of Washington in 1944, but if I remember correctly, shortly after the elections in November of 1944 the Washington Commonwealth Federation was dissolved but I had no connection with the Washington Commonwealth Federation at all.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with Barbara Hartle after you became a resident of the State of Washington?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, I naturally read some of the news stories in both the Seattle Post Intelligencier and the Seattle Times. And I heard about her. Now, I don’t recall her too well but I am pretty sure that in the early days of the WPA in the State of Montana she, I think she was working in the Great Falls area; if I remember her correctly, she is rather short and squat, rather pasty complexion? I don’t remember her too well. I can remember she—I think I saw her once or twice at that time while I was on the Public Service Commission and later when I was in Congress, a group of people had gone down and raided a commodity warehouse in Great Falls and had taken food and various things out of the commodity warehouse. If I remember her correctly, at that time she was on a committee that came to see me to use my influence to see that they weren’t prosecuted for what they had done.

Then I later saw her in the State of Washington, my feeling would be maybe 3 or 4 times. I am pretty sure; I don’t remember her too well.

Mr. Velde. Could you place those times you did see her more definitely as to the year?

Mr. O’Connell. I really couldn’t. I was in the State of Washington from August of 1944 until October of 1949, and it is over that period of time that I actually saw her.

Mr. Tavenner. During the 1954 hearings of this committee in Seattle, Barbara Hartle was asked to tell the committee from her own personal knowledge what connection the Washington Pension Union had, if any, with Communist activity in that area. I should state to you that Barbara Hartle was one of the Smith Act defendants in the State of Washington and was convicted. She testified before this committee after her conviction and sentence. She testified very fully regarding her knowledge of Communist Party activities in the Northwest. She described the circumstances under which she became a member of the Communist Party and how she rose to the No. 2 position in the Communist Party in the State of Washington.

This is the answer that she gave to the question of the connection between the Washington Pension Union and Communist activities:

There was quite a lot of connection with Communist activity in this area between the Communist Party and the Washington Pension Union. The Northwest district of the Communist Party has paid a great deal of attention to the Washington Pension Union for a long period of years. What to do next in the pension union has been the subject of many discussions in district board and district committee meetings in which I have participated between the period of 1932 to 1940 and in large district committee meetings before that in the latter 1930’s.

Important offices and many local offices of the Washington Pension Union have been held by Communist Party members, and the activities and policies of the pension union have always been supported by the Communist Party. Many issues have been brought into the pension union by the Communist Party and gained wide support by so doing. The Communist Party in this district viewed the Washington Pension Union as really its most important single front organization. It is called mass organization by the Communist Party. They don’t use the term “front organization.” They call it a mass organization. It was the largest and most influential and second only to the Washington Commonwealth Federation, which was a federation of organizations, and the Washington Pension Union was an affiliate of the Washington Commonwealth Federation, in which the Communist Party likewise had a dominating influence.

I think I should read a little further. Mrs. Hartle also testified that——

Mr. O’Connell. May I say I had no connection; I was not an officer of the Washington Pension Union.

Mr. Tavenner. I was going to discuss that question, whether or not you were affiliated in any way with the Washington Pension Union.

Mr. O’Connell. I think as executive secretary of the Democratic Party and as executive secretary of the Progressive Party I made speeches to State conventions of the Washington Pension Union, as did practically all the political leaders of the State of Washington, regardless of the party.

I think during a period after my employment as executive secretary of the Democratic Party at the request of a local in Everett I was sent there to make a speech and I think I was—I am pretty sure I was paid expenses and I may have been paid a fee for the speech I made to the group at Everett at that time.

Mr. Tavenner. Was that a convention of the Washington Pension Union?

Mr. O’Connell. No, as I remember it, the Everett meeting was some kind of a large local meeting that they had, some kind of an event or celebration or something of that kind that I spoke at. It is hard to recollect. It is a long time ago and I have made a lot of speeches all over the State of Washington in those years and to a lot of groups.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you work closely with the leadership of the union in the political positions that you held, first, as secretary of the State Democratic Party and later as secretary of the Progressive Party?

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t know if you would say I worked closely. We were naturally anxious in both the Democratic Party and in the Progressive Party to get the votes of the senior citizens of the State of Washington, and the only pension organization, the only senior citizens organization at that particular time anyway I can remember was the Washington Pension Union.

I think later there were some dissensions and shoot-offs and smaller groups organized but I mean I had no official connection with the pension union. Pennock, who was the president of the Pension Union, was also Democratic representative from the 35th Legislative District. He was the chairman of what we called the delegates from that district to the King County Democratic Central Committee. He was, I think, a chairman or member of the rules committee on the Democratic side in the State legislature.

Mr. Tavenner. That is William Pennock?

Mr. O’Connell. That is William Pennock. In his activity as a Democrat or member of the Democratic organization as executive secretary of the Democratic Party, I naturally saw Pennock and naturally he was involved.

Mr. Tavenner. Was he one of the Smith Act defendants in the State of Washington?

Mr. O’Connell. As I am informed, he was.

Mr. Tavenner. And was convicted.

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t think so. He died.

Mr. Tavenner. I believe that is true.

Mr. O’Connell. As I understand it, he either committed suicide or was found dead.

Mr. Tavenner. During the period of the trial.

Mr. O’Connell. While the trial was in progress, yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you know William Pennock to be a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. O’Connell. No, I did not. As I understand, he never divulged his membership in the Communist Party until a few days before the Smith Act trial and I think he made a public statement at that time.

I, by that time, was back in the State of Montana some 4 or 5 years.

Mr. Tavenner. I would like to continue to present the testimony of Mrs. Hartle regarding the Washington Pension Union to make plain a few facts. Mrs. Hartle further testified:

My knowledge of the membership of the pension union is that it was reported by William J. Pennock and others in meetings that it had about 10,000 members.

She further testified:

The membership of the Communist Party in the organization was small, smaller than in most so-called mass organization work. This was considered by the district leadership of the Communist Party and by the national leadership as well as being evidence of very successful mass work, and it was often used as an example of successful Communist mass work where it didn’t take so many Communists in order to influence a large number of people.

Were you aware of the influence that was brought to bear by the Communist Party upon this organization, the Washington Pension Union?

Mr. O’Connell. No, sir; I certainly wasn’t aware of it.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of any issues that were brought to the Washington Pension Union by the Communist Party as testified to by Mrs. Hartle?

Mr. O’Connell. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. Tavenner. You have told us that you spoke on numerous occasions at meetings of the pension union.

Mr. O’Connell. I wouldn’t want to make it numerous. I spoke several times. I spoke at their State conventions, I know that, during the period while I was executive secretary of the Democratic Party and while I was executive secretary of the Progressive Party.

Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with the testimony of Ernest Paul Stith before the Canwell committee?

Mr. O’Connell. If I remember, he was an investigator for the Canwell committee. I don’t know what his testimony was.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Stith analyzed a report contained in the January 30, 1947, issue of the New World relating to a program that was conducted at the Tri-County Snohomish, Whatcom, and Skagit Legislative Conference. The analysis goes on to show that 21 of the 99 delegates at that convention represented the pension union. The speakers included William Pennock, president of the Washington Old Age Pension Union, and Jerry O’Connell, former Democratic Party State executive secretary.

Mr. O’Connell. I think that is the meeting I was talking about.

Mr. Tavenner. That is the one you were referring to. Terry Pettus was editor of the New World. Was that a Communist paper?

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t know whether the New World was a Communist paper. There apparently was some distinction; they later became the Northwest edition of the People’s World, and, of course, the People’s World, as I understand it, is a Communist newspaper.

Mr. Tavenner. And Frank Batterson, chairman of the Snohomish County Communist Party was a speaker. You say that is the occasion to which you refer?

Mr. O’Connell. I am pretty sure that is the occasion—was that held at Everett; does it say?

Mr. Tavenner. It doesn’t state where it was held.

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t even know Batterson. He certainly didn’t speak while I was there and of course I had no knowledge of the fact that he was a speaker and no knowledge of the fact that he was chairman of—what group of the Communist Party?

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall William Pennock speaking?

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t recall him speaking, no, but I am sure that if it were—you see, I may have spoken. Does it say how many days it lasted?

Mr. Tavenner. No.

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t remember Pennock speaking while I was there—at least that. But whether he spoke at the meeting or not I don’t know.

Mr. Tavenner. Did Terry Pettus speak at that meeting?

Mr. O’Connell. Same way with Terry Pettus. I wouldn’t know.

Mr. Tavenner. The witness stated that the following is the portion of the program adopted at this meeting regarding foreign policy:

Break diplomatic and economic relations with Franco Spain, withdraw United States troops from China, and stop aid to Chiang Kai-shek, dictatorship, United States participation in worldwide disarmament, stop manufacture of atomic bombs and outlaw their use, abolish compulsory military training, remove from private industry development of atomic power to insure its peaceful use for benefit of all, restoration and extension of UNRRA, promote Big Three unity, carry through the denazification and demilitarization programs in Germany and Japan.

Those were the policies being advocated by the Communist Party at that time; were they not?

Mr. O’Connell. I wouldn’t know.

Mr. Tavenner. You would not know?

Mr. O’Connell. No. I presume—if you say so, they are. I don’t know what their particular program was at that time.

Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with Mr. Eugene V. Dennett, who at one time was vice president of the Washington Commonwealth Federation—in fact held that position while you were there?

Mr. O’Connell. He what?

Mr. Tavenner. He held the position of vice president when you moved to Seattle?

Mr. O’Connell. I can’t remember him at all. The only time I remember Dennett was coming to my office as executive secretary of the Democratic Party in the Vance Building, when he was in a military uniform and telling me that he had been vice president of the Washington Commonwealth Federation, but he would have been vice president a very short period of the Commonwealth Federation because I was there only from August of 1944 and if I remember correctly, the Commonwealth Federation was dissolved shortly after the November elections in 1944 and, of course, the only thing I can say about Dennett is I can remember him coming to the office of the executive secretary of the Democratic Party.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware that he was a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. O’Connell. No; I certainly was not.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Dennett was called as a witness by this committee at its June 1954 hearings. Mr. Dennett, when he appeared, relied upon the fifth amendment and refused to answer questions but later on during the hearing he came back and asked the committee to permit him to testify. It was so near the end of the hearings that it was impossible to hear him then. So the committee took his testimony in March of 1955 and Mr. Dennett described his activity in the Communist Party as a Communist Party functionary over a long period of time and described how he got out of the Communist Party, in fact described his expulsion and also the expulsion of his wife. He gave the committee much valuable information.

In the course of his testimony he told the committee how a man by the name of Lowell Wakefield was sent by the Communist Party from New York to Seattle to engage in organizational work for the Communist Party and that one of his chief assignments was to assist in the organization of the Washington Pension Union.

Were you acquainted with Mr. Lowell Wakefield?

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t remember anybody by the name of Lowell Wakefield at all. In my time, I mean my only recollection—was Wakefield later some kind of a representative for a fish company or operated a fish company of his own down on the waterfront?

Mr. Tavenner. I understood he did, but not down on the waterfront in Washington. I think he went to Alaska.

Mr. O’Connell. Well, anyway, I think I heard about him but I don’t think I ever met Wakefield personally, or personally knew him.

Mr. Tavenner. Have you any knowledge of his activities?

Mr. O’Connell. My only recollection, if it is the same Wakefield, is that he was a contributor to the Democratic Party, if it is the same person. What I want to do, I don’t want to get myself in trouble, I certainly didn’t know Wakefield as a Communist or knew that he was a Communist or anything of the kind and I don’t want—my recollection is if it is the same Wakefield he had some kind of a fish company or was a representative for a fish company and did make contributions to the Democratic Party while I was executive secretary.

Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Tom Rabbitt?

Mr. O’Connell. Yes; I was acquainted with Tom Rabbitt.

Mr. Tavenner. He was State Senator and also an office holder in the Washington Pension Union; is that right?

Mr. O’Connell. He was Washington State senator from the 35th legislative district. He was, I think, a delegate to the King County Democratic Central Committee from that district.

Mr. Tavenner. Is it a fact that the State legislature refused to seat him?

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t think so. I think the State legislature, before I came to the State of Washington, refused to seat a party by the name of Lenus Westman, elected as a State senator from up in Snohomish County, but at least in my time nobody challenged Rabbitt’s senator-ship.

Mr. Tavenner. I am probably in error.

Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel, isn’t it true both Mrs. Hartle and Eugene Dennett testified that both Wakefield and Rabbitt were members of the Communist Party?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. I think the record should show that William J. Pennock was identified by Barbara Hartle not only as president of the Washington Pension Union but as a member of the district committee of the Communist Party for the State of Washington and that Tom Rabbitt was likewise an officer of the Washington Pension Union and a member of the district committee of the Communist Party.

Mr. Velde. Isn’t it true, also, that Mr. Rabbitt appeared in executive session in June 1954 and refused to answer questions relating to his membership in the Communist Party and other activities along that line, relying on the fifth amendment?

Mr. Tavenner. That is correct, sir.

Mr. O’Connell, did you confer with William Pennock and Tom Rabbitt or any of the other leaders of the Washington Pension Union regarding its organization, its policies, or any phases of its work?

Mr. O’Connell. In view of the prefatory statements made by you and by Congressman Velde, and particularly with respect to the fact that you state that Rabbitt and Pennock were members of the district board of the Communist Party——

Mr. Velde. Just a minute. I didn’t state that. I said two witnesses had testified that he was a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. O’Connell. I see. I want to protect myself. I don’t know whether I can safely answer that question now.

Mr. Velde. What was the question?

Mr. Tavenner. Read the question, please.

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)

Mr. O’Connell. That is a real difficult one for me to answer. As executive secretary of the Democratic Party, I probably, of course, suggested things they might do to help us in the campaign and so on. I don’t know, but I certainly—what I want to do—what I did was not because they were members of the district board of the Communist Party or because they were Communists, or anything of that kind. If I suggested something they ought to do about the Washington Pension Union either to Pennock or Rabbitt, it was in connection with either Democratic Party activity or Progressive Party activity as far as campaigns were concerned.

It is a very broad general question. You asked me about it, any phases of its work. For instance, I mean we were certainly anxious in the Democratic Party and Progressive Party, too, to get the votes of the senior citizens of the State and——

Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by the “senior citizens”?

Mr. O’Connell. The older people of the State that were in the pension organization, and so on. And outside the organization as well that they had influence on.

Mr. Tavenner. Were your discussions with the leadership of the Washington Pension Union chiefly with Pennock and Rabbitt?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, during my time out there I think the Washington Pension Union, if I remember correctly, had a whole host of vice presidents, I don’t know how many, I think they elected—I think Rabbitt was one of those vice presidents. But the executive officer of the Washington Pension Union of course was Pennock and in my work as executive secretary of the Democratic Party and also the Progressive Party I certainly conferred with Pennock, I certainly asked him to see that things were done by the campaign and see that work was done in connection with it.

But in my time out there I think, I don’t think Rabbitt was any kind of—was he a full-time paid employee of the Pension Union?

Mr. Tavenner. I am not sure what his official connection was with it.

Mr. O’Connell. My recollection is that he was one of the many vice presidents, I think if I recall there were about 16 vice presidents and I think he was one of them. As far as Rabbitt and Pennock were concerned, all of the time they were both leaders in the Democratic Party. Rabbitt was a Democrat State senator from a legislative district, Pennock was a representative from the same legislative district and likewise within the Democratic organization particularly in King County and because King County was the largest county in the State, the impact it would have on the State organization as well, I was thrown into considerable contact with them in my work as executive secretary of the Democratic Party with both Pennock and Rabbitt.

Mr. Velde. Mr. O’Connell, both Pennock and Rabbitt were generally known to be members of the Communist Party, as members of the district board, were they not?

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t know. I couldn’t say. I don’t think Rabbitt acknowledged he was a member of the Communist Party and Pennock only announced it shortly before he died. Shortly before the beginning of the Smith Act trial in Seattle, he announced he was.

Mr. Tavenner. You were quite aware, were you not, of the effort being made by the Communist Party to take over the Washington Pension Union?

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t know whether I—I was not in Washington Pension Union. I was not engaged in its work or activity.

Mr. Tavenner. Any person who has held the two positions that you have as secretary of two very active organizations would certainly have had his finger on the pulse of general activities in the community. You certainly knew, did you not, that the Communist Party was operating the Washington Pension Union?

Mr. O’Connell. No; I certainly did not know that. I didn’t know that.

Mr. Tavenner. You believed it, didn’t you?

Mr. O’Connell. No; I didn’t believe it. There are a lot of wonderful old people in that organization and Dr. Fisher——

Mr. Tavenner. I am talking about the leadership.

Mr. O’Connell. Who is the president of it——

Mr. Tavenner. I have told you Mrs. Hartle said there were comparatively few.

Mr. O’Connell. Mrs. Hartle, on her own acknowledgment was a functionary of the Communist Party, was she not?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. O’Connell. She certainly would know whether they were working or not, but I was not a functionary of the Communist Party and I wouldn’t know what the Communist Party was doing as far as the Pension Union was concerned.

Mr. Velde. You had no inkling whatsoever that Pennock, Rabbitt, and Mrs. Hartle were members of the Communist Party?

Mr. O’Connell. I had no inkling?

Mr. Velde. Suspicion.

Mr. O’Connell. Yes.

Mr. Velde. You did have a suspicion they were?

Mr. O’Connell. Yes.

Mr. Velde. Upon what did you base that suspicion?

Mr. O’Connell. I couldn’t prove it. Of course it was not my particular job to prove it.

Mr. Velde. Certainly not. No question about that.

Mr. Tavenner. In your judgment what was the purpose of the Communist Party in attempting to capture the leadership of the Washington Pension Union?

Mr. O’Connell. In my judgment what would it have been?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. O’Connell. Well, I presume, as Mrs. Hartle states there, they were engaged in developing what she called mass organizations and so on, and this was a large organization, there isn’t any doubt about that, there was a very, very large group. I think the membership of 10,000 is even underestimated. My feeling is its membership ran closer to 16,000 just from my contact with it. I presume they would like to control it because of its tremendous effect and tremendous influence without any doubt. I know in the Democratic Party I wanted to make sure that the pension union supported the candidates of the Democratic Party. We worked hard to get them to indorse and support Democratic Party candidates and to work for them every way we knew how.

Mr. Tavenner. Did the leadership in the Washington Pension Union endeavor to influence the selection of candidates for office in either the Progressive Party or the Democratic Party while you were secretary?

Mr. O’Connell. Did the Washington Pension Union try——

Mr. Tavenner. Yes; through its leadership, try to influence the selection of individuals for office.

Mr. O’Connell. If you mean they wanted certain people elected——

Mr. Tavenner. I am not talking about supporting certain people but did they endeavor to get certain individuals selected for party nomination.

Mr. O’Connell. By that do you mean did they go out and select certain people?

Mr. Tavenner. Did the leadership in the Washington Pension Union try to influence your party organization in behalf of certain individuals in whom they were interested?

Mr. O’Connell. As far as the party organization was concerned, we had the Democratic primary where the people voted in the Democratic primary and selected the nominees and then after the Democratic nominees were selected and so on, I would say the Washington Pension Union with rare exceptions—and I think those exceptions were some 9 or 10 State senators who were called quisling senators, who didn’t support the Democratic organization in the State senate at the time—I think the Washington Pension Union generally supported the Democratic Party.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Eugene Dennett testified that the purpose of the Communist Party in exerting its infiltration efforts in both the Washington Commonwealth Federation and the Washington Pension Union was to strengthen its own political influence. I shall read a part of his testimony. In referring to the Washington Commonwealth Federation he said:

It was our estimate that it was capable—

by “our” he is referring to the Communist Party—

that it was capable of influencing and obtaining the vote of one-third of the members who voted in the Democratic Party slate or side of the ticket and because of that fact and because we were in a higher state of mobilization than the rest of the Democratic Party when primaries came along we could exercise a more direct influence in the primaries than anybody else because our members in the Washington Commonwealth Federation had a great zeal and a greater devotion to carrying out their objectives than the other Democrats who frequently relied upon making their decisions in the general election.

When asked the question why was it that the Communist Party was so interested in obtaining control of the Washington Commonwealth Federation, he replied:

Because we wanted to ultimately obtain political power for the Communist Party in the United States of America.

Did you observe efforts made by William Pennock and Tom Rabbitt, to get control of either the Democratic machinery, the machinery of the Democratic Party, or the machinery of the Progressive Party through the use of the Washington Pension Union?

Mr. O’Connell. Well, I would say in a certain few districts in King County, probably one district in Snohomish County, legislative district in Grays Harbor County, that the nominees of the Democratic Party were certainly not people that the pension union had selected or had picked out but I think they were people the pension union supported because of their votes in the legislature and so on. The Commonwealth Federation was actually gone in my time. I don’t know what it did. I don’t know what its power was and what its influence was but for instance in the 35th District if Pennock was the Representative and Rabbitt was the Senator and they were both in the pension union they certainly had some influence there.

I am trying to think of the district in Snohomish, there are two legislative districts there, I think it was northern Snohomish County where I think there was a pension union member who was actually a member and elected to the legislative assembly and I think that was true in the district down in Grays Harbor County, but you take all of the eastern end of Washington, all the eastern side of Washington they certainly had no influence to speak of over there. They might have had a tiny bit of influence in one district in Spokane County, but in the great part, I would say in the great part of the State outside of those few areas I picked out and where the selections were actually people of their own membership, I don’t, I can’t see any actual picking or selecting of people that were put in. I can’t recall all of the people who were, but for instance the major State offices like Governor and United States Senator, Congressman, and so on, I couldn’t see any influence except in the First Congressional District where of course they could have been instrumental in the nomination and election of Hugh DeLacy in 1944 election, I think it was, but as to the other districts, John Coffee was in Congress a long time I think, even before the pension union was established, Charlie Levy was in the House.

Mr. Tavenner. Was Hugh DeLacy known to you to be a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. O’Connell. NO.

Mr. Tavenner. He has been identified by both Barbara Hartle and Eugene Dennett. He was produced as a witness before the committee in Ohio in September of last year and he refused to answer any material questions relating to Communist Party affiliations, relying upon the fifth amendment as the reason for so doing.

Mr. O’Connell. Senator Neuberger wrote a chapter in a book published by Bob Allen called Our Fair City, and wrote the article in connection with the city of Seattle, and he gives me credit in that book, if I remember correctly, for having forced Hugh DeLacy on the Democratic Party in the State of Washington, but Hugh DeLacy had actually been nominated for Congress on the Democratic Party ticket before I ever went to the State of Washington.

He was actually the Democratic nominee.

Let me say, Mr. Neuberger also gives me credit for—Senator Neuberger—for taking over. He said I took over the Democratic organization and so on. I don’t think I did. I had served in the House with Senator Wallgren who later became Governor and Senator Magnuson, who was in the House, and I knew them well and Senator Mitchell, who was secretary to Senator Wallgren at that time, and who later became Senator and Congressman and all of that, and I think they were appreciative of the kind of job I had done out there, and so on.

Mr. Velde. Did you have any suspicion or inkling that Mr. Hugh DeLacy was a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. O’Connell. I couldn’t say, I wouldn’t want to say.

Mr. Velde. Why would you not want to say?

Mr. O’Connell. You see, I really didn’t get to know him. He was elected to Congress shortly after I came out there and then he came down here to Washington and then after his defeat for Congress he was only back in the State of Washington a short time and went to work, if I recall correctly, in the national office of the Progressive Party and was working outside the State of Washington so that my contact with DeLacy was not very great. I didn’t get to know him like the people that were out in the State day in and day out and were in the Democratic Party meetings.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. O’Connell, we have the situation where the Communist Party went deliberately about seizing the leadership and capturing the leadership in a very powerful political organization in the State of Washington, namely, the Washington Pension Union, and ahead of it the Washington Commonwealth Federation. It succeeded in capturing the leadership of it. It did it for the purpose of advancing the interests of the Communist Party.

Will you tell the committee whether or not the leadership of this group, the Washington Pension Union, was successful in influencing either of the parties of which you were secretary in any of its policy actions?

Mr. O’Connell. I think for instance, in the Democratic Party particularly by its organization and by its work and demands for improved pension legislation, they had tremendous influence on the Democratic Party. As a matter of fact the—I would say even on the Republican Party. In the 1945 session of the State legislature the actual legislation proposed by the pension union placing a $50 floor under old-age-pension grants and setting up a system of budget and what-not, the legislation which they actually introduced passed the State senate by, I think, a vote of 45 or 46 to nothing. Both Democrats and Republicans voted for it.

In the House I think it passed the same way probably 102 to 1 or 105 to 3 or something like that, it was almost unanimous. In that particular effect certainly they not only had influence with the Democratic Party but certainly in putting legislation on the books——

Mr. Tavenner. What influence did it have on the Progressive Party?

Mr. O’Connell. Of course we had no power. We had no officials of any kind.

Mr. Tavenner. Actually, wasn’t the leadership in the Washington Pension Union and the leadership in the Progressive Party practically the same?

Mr. O’Connell. The leadership?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, wasn’t there an overlapping leadership which made the two practically the same?

Mr. O’Connell. No, I wouldn’t say so. Actually, it is hard to put the picture in the pattern of that time, but the 1946 elections had been as we all recall quite disastrous to the Democrats, there was considerable dissension among some Democrats with President Truman, and there was a move from Democrats generally—I would say in the Progressive Party, as it existed particularly in 1948, the Progressive Party was not, did not have an officialdom or even a membership that you could say, “Well, this is identical with the Washington Pension Union.”

For instance, I never held any office in the Washington Pension Union of any kind—I was executive secretary—Russell Fluent, who had just finished a term as Democratic treasurer was the chairman of the Progressive Party—L. C. Hunterer, who was Democratic sheriff in Olympia in Thurston County, was a national committeeman—and the Democratic national committeewoman from eastern Washington, who later became the national committeewoman of the Progressive Party from the State of Washington. Leadership in many counties was a leadership that moved from the county chairman and others and moved over from the Democratic Party into the Progressive Party.

The leadership of the pension union, Pennock and Fisher and Nora McCoy, and others I recall there, if you consider Rabbitt——

Mr. Tavenner. What was Fisher’s first name?

Mr. O’Connell. Dr. C. H. Fisher. He had been president of Northern Washington Normal College, I think, at Bellingham.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. O’Connell, I hand you a photostatic copy of a document and I will ask you to examine it, please, and state whether you know what it is.

Mr. O’Connell. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. What is it?

Mr. O’Connell. As I understand, it purports to be a sort of a schedule or catalog of the Pacific Northwest Labor School for what they call its fall term of October 6 to December 12.

Mr. Tavenner. What year? 1947?

Mr. O’Connell. It apparently—I notice somebody made a notation up here, 1947, but it doesn’t appear.

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence, and ask that it be marked “O’Connell Exhibit No. 1” for identification purposes only, and made a part of the committee files.

Mr. Doyle. It is so ordered.

Mr. Tavenner. By reference to the exhibit it is noted that course No. 148, offered at this school, was entitled “Northwest Labor History” by John Daschbach, extension director, and William J. Pennock, president of the Washington Pension Union. Will you tell the committee, please, whether John Daschbach was known to you to be a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. O’Connell. He was not.

Mr. Tavenner. He was not a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. O’Connell. He was not known to me to be a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show he has been identified by both Eugene Dennett and Barbara Hartle——

Mr. O’Connell. I think he was also a Smith Act defendant.

Mr. Tavenner. As a member of the party and he was a Smith Act defendant. He was a teacher at this school. It is observed here on the second page that a course on trade-union organizational problems was to be taught by a person by the name of J-a-c-k-i-n-s. What was his first name, Harvey?

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t recall Jackins too well. Was he a member of the union, the Boeing union?

Mr. Tavenner. I am not certain which union.

Mr. O’Connell. I know there was a party by the name of Jackins and that he was a leader in some one of the unions out there and my best recollection is he was in the Boeing union.

Mr. Tavenner. We have testimony before our committee that Harvey Jackins taught at this school and I think the record should also show Harvey Jackins was identified as a member of the Communist Party by Elizabeth Boggs Cohen and Leonard Basil Wildman. He was cited for contempt of the House of Representatives for refusal to answer questions during the June 1954 hearings in Seattle and has been convicted by a Federal court.

Mr. O’Connell. In that connection I want to—I notice in that schedule that my name is listed as teaching a course in political——

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Labor’s political role, 1948.

Mr. O’Connell. I never taught such a class or roll or schedule. Never appeared or anything else.

Mr. Tavenner. Well, you were enrolled as a teacher, were you not, in the labor school?

Mr. O’Connell. I was not. I never taught a class in the labor school, never appeared in the labor school.

Mr. Tavenner. What is your explanation of the advertising of the curriculum with you as a teacher?

Mr. O’Connell. My explanation is really easy. Mr. Daschbach got that schedule out and later called me and asked me if I would do it and I refused and told him I didn’t want to do it.

Mr. Tavenner. He did call you and you refused?

Mr. O’Connell. Yes.

Mr. Tavenner. Why did you refuse?

Mr. O’Connell. Because I didn’t want to do it.

Mr. Tavenner. What was your reason for not wanting to do it?

Mr. O’Connell. Let me see what it was. If I remember correctly, my objection was to “tackle both ideological and organizational problems which labor must solve to gain its ends in 1948.”

And my particular objection, of course, was that I had never been involved, never was a member of a labor union or trade-union, and I didn’t, I couldn’t speak as a laboring man or as a member of organized labor. There was no particular way that I could particularly expound on what labor’s role was because I wasn’t qualified to do it. I had either been in political office or had been engaged in political organization.

Mr. Velde. Did you know at that time that the Pacific Northwest Labor School was a Communist organization?

Mr. O’Connell. No.

Mr. Velde. What was the date of that?

Mr. Tavenner. 1947.

Mr. O’Connell. I think it was either listed earlier or later but it had been attacked by some of the labor organizations long before it was listed, it had been attacked by some, particularly I think the Central Labor Council in Seattle, and had been attacked by other groups out there.

Mr. Velde. Your suspicion that it was a Communist organization was not the reason you didn’t teach the course?

Mr. O’Connell. I wouldn’t want to say now that is it. I know at the time when he called me about it I objected to the word ideological. I remember that expressly and I objected to the fact that I was qualified in no way to talk about labor’s role in 1948. I was not a member of a trade union, I had not been involved in labor organization or anything of the kind. I know I didn’t teach there and I didn’t——

Mr. Tavenner. What was the meaning of “coordinator” after your name?

Mr. O’Connell. I don’t know. Maybe if you let me look at it—I don’t know what it means.

Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr. Daschbach discuss the title of coordinator with you?

Mr. O’Connell. No; he certainly did not.

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show at this time the Communist affiliation of other teachers in this school—Theodore Raymond Astley.

Mr. O’Connell. While you are doing that I wonder if I could say this. When I spoke up and said I knew Mr. Daschbach was a Smith Act defendant there was some remonstrance from over here where the press is located and I wanted to point out I left the State of Washington in 1949 and Mr. Daschbach did not become a Smith Act defendant, if I remember correctly, until 1954.

Mr. Velde. I think that commotion was because they didn’t know how to spell his name.

Mr. Tavenner. The spelling is D-a-s-c-h-b-a-c-h.

Mr. O’Connell. I thought maybe I had left something unexplained.

Mr. Tavenner. Ted Astley was slated to conduct course No. 245, psychology in the social science. He appeared as a witness before the committee and refused to testify, relying on the fifth amendment as to past and present Communist Party membership. He was identified as a member of the Communist Party by Barbara Hartle.

Ruth Bitterman was slated to conduct a course in children’s workshop. She refused to testify as a witness before the committee but was identified by Barbara Hartle as a member of the Communist Party.

Jean Danielson was shown by testimony in our hearings in Seattle to be the same person as Margaret Jean Schuddakoph, and was advertised to conduct course No. 300, as special workshop in reading and writing. She refused to testify before the committee and was identified as a Communist Party member by Barbara Hartle.

Marjorie Daschbach was advertised to conduct course No. 304 and was identified by Barbara Hartle as a member of the Communist Party.

John Davis was advertised to conduct a course on workshop in the graphic arts and was identified before this committee as having been a member of the Communist Party by Barbara Hartle.

Fair Taylor, editor of Union Guardian, was advertised in the catalog to teach a course on labor writer’s workshop. The testimony before the committee shows that she is the same person as Fair Taylor Egroth, and she was identified by Barbara Hartle as having been a member of the Communist Party.

Dr. Ralph Gundlach was advertised to conduct a course of the analysis of employer propaganda. Were you acquainted with Dr. Gundlach?

Mr. O’Connell. Yes, sir. He was a professor at the University of Washington.

Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Gundlach was identified by Harold Sunoo, before this committee, as having been a member of the Communist Party. There was a course conducted on labor news reporting by a person by the name of Pettus. Do you know his first name?

Mr. O’Connell. Do I know his first name?

Mr. Tavenner. Yes.

Mr. O’Connell. As I understand, there were two Pettuses who were newspapermen, Ken Pettus and Terry Pettus, and I am pretty sure the party involved here is the editor of the New World, or does it say? Ken Pettus, I think, was editor of the Stars and Stripes in the Far Eastern area at one time, and then Terry was editor of the New World in Seattle, Terry Pettus.

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know which one taught this course on labor news reporting?

Mr. O’Connell. No, I don’t.

Mr. Tavenner. You do not?

Mr. O’Connell. My guess would be that it would be Terry because he was in Seattle but I don’t know whether he actually did.

Mr. Tavenner. Terry Pettus was identified before this committee as having been a member of the Communist Party by Elizabeth Boggs Cohen and Barbara Hartle.

Did Mr. Daschbach when he called you indicate his reason for calling you about teaching this course in the Pacific Northwest Labor School?

Mr. O’Connell. He thought because of my political experience and because of the position, I think I had just shortly concluded my term as executive secretary of the Democratic Party, that was when, in December of 1947.

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.

Mr. O’Connell. That was in April of 1947, wasn’t it?

Mr. Tavenner. October to December 1947.

Mr. O’Connell. Anyway, he thought because of my political experience and because of my previous position that I could do a job and that I would be able to do it. When he told me what it was I told him it was in a field that I was not particularly qualified to do.

Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in recess until 2 o’clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:10 p. m., the committee was recessed, to reconvene at 2 p. m. the same day.)