December 29, 1795.
[Mr. William Smith, of S. Carolina, Mr. William B. Giles, of Virginia, Mr. Buck, of Vermont, and afterwards, Mr. Sedgwick, of Massachusetts, severally gave in statements corroborating that of Mr. Vans Murray.]
It was then moved that Robert Randall should be brought to the bar of the House. He was brought in accordingly. Seats were placed for the Judge of the District of Pennsylvania, and the two counsellors for Randall, Mr. Lewis and Mr. Tilghman, jr. The informations given in by Mr. W. Smith, Mr. Murray, and Mr. Giles, were read over, and the Speaker asked the prisoner, what he had to say in his defence? I am not guilty. You declare yourself not guilty? Yes. Have you any proof to cite that you are not guilty? No. Are you ready to answer?
Mr. Lewis[63] then rose. He observed, that these declarations had been made in the absence of the prisoner, who, as he conceived, was entitled to have been present. His request was, that the informants might now be placed in a situation to be examined by the prisoner and his counsel, and that the information may now be given in the prisoner's hearing. The prisoner and his counsel were ordered to withdraw.
Mr. Jeremiah Smith made the following motion:
"That the prisoner be informed, that if he has any questions to propose to the informants, or other members of the House, he is at liberty to put them, (in the mode already prescribed,) and that they be sworn to answer such questions as shall be asked, and that the informants be sworn to the declarations just read."
The words in parenthesis were an amendment suggested by Mr. Giles. The resolution and amendment were adopted by the House, and the prisoner with his counsel were again brought to the bar. The resolution above stated was read to Randall.
Mr. W. Smith, Mr. Murray, and Mr. Giles, were then sworn, standing up in their places: the oath being administered by the Judge.
Mr. Tilghman[63] then observed on the delicate situation in which the counsel stood, with which they were strongly impressed. The high character of the gentlemen who stood forth in support of the accusation, gentlemen whom Mr. T. had known personally for many years, with the odious nature of the crime charged on the prisoner, embarrassed them considerably; as they had, however, been permitted by the House to appear in this business, they were bound in duty to do every thing consistent with a fair and honorable defence. If Mr. T. were to declare his own opinion of the conduct of the prisoner, it would be thus, that his behavior was highly improper and indelicate; but Mr. Randall denied having made any offer either of lands or money, as in fact he had none to give. The disposal of the lands depended entirely on the subsequent vote of Congress.
Mr. Lewis spoke a few words. The prisoner's defence was, that he denied any proposal of a corrupt nature. The members who favored the sale of the lands, were only to have their shares on the same terms, and on paying an equal share of the expenses, as the other partners.
Mr. W. Smith was then examined upon that part of his information where he says, that those members who should be concerned with Randall, were to have shares of the lands. Mr. Smith was asked whether the offer was that they were to be granted at an inferior rate? In reply, he understood it was to be on the same terms as other partners were to have them. Mr. Goodhue proposed a query, whether the offer made by Mr. Randall was in order that Mr. Smith might use his influence to forward the scheme in Congress? Mr. Smith replied, that he certainly understood it so. The prisoner had all along referred to members of Congress, though he did not expressly name them. His phrase was, "for persons who would favor the scheme."
Mr. Tilghman then, through the Speaker, asked Mr. Murray whether he understood he was to pay for his share of land as the other associates or not?
Mr. Murray.—I understood him as is explained in the declaration. At first I understood, that the members who should assist in getting the thing through, might then retire to their homes, and when the scheme was in activity they might come in on the same terms as the original associates. But afterwards, I understood from Randall that I might have a share if I would accept of it, and this I understood from the whole tenor of the latter part of his conversation. The shares set apart were to be for acceptance as donations. I so understood him.
Mr. Tilghman.—Did he expressly say, that they were intended as donations, or did Mr. Murray collect this to be the man's meaning from a variety of circumstances?
Mr. Murray.—He did not say, if you will do so and so, I will give you so and so; his proposal, though more delicate, was as unequivocal as a direct offer. I so understood him.
Mr. Harper asked Mr. Murray, whether Randall did not tell him, that if he did not like land, he should have money, and whether the money was not to be more than the value of the share of land?
Mr. Murray said, that from this part, and indeed the general tenor of the conversation, he did infer, that a donation was intended, and when he objected to land, the prisoner then said, if he did not choose to accept of a share in land, he might have cash in hand.
Mr. Lewis, counsel for the prisoner, asked Mr. Murray, whether he did not state to Randall his aversion to dealing in land, and whether Randall did not say that this need not be an objection, since the share might be sold, and then that he would have cash instead of land?
Mr. Murray.—I did not so understand it.
Mr. Harper wished Mr. Murray to relate, as nearly as possible, the words of the prisoner in this important part of the conversation.
Mr. Murray said, that immediately after it took place, and he had communicated it to his friends, he took notes of it. It stood in this manner: "I stated objections to land speculations as troublesome: Randall then said, if I did not choose land, I might have cash in hand."
Mr. Tilghman asked, whether Mr. Murray did not, to get the man's whole secret from him, go beyond his views to draw him on?
Mr. Murray said, he affected to think well of the more sound part of the plan.
Mr. Tilghman asked what Mr. Murray expressed to Randall when it was proposed to him to engage in the land scheme?
Mr. Murray.—A strong repugnance to land speculations.
Mr. Lewis.—Then it was, he said, that if it was not convenient for Mr. Murray to be concerned in a share in land, he might have it in money?
Mr. Murray.—Yes.
Mr. S. Smith was next sworn. There was here a motion made for adjourning.
Mr. Lewis stated that Mr. Tilghman and himself had never seen the prisoner until yesterday in the evening. They had been in Court until late on Saturday evening. They went yesterday to prison, and back again this morning. They had received a long written state of the case from Mr. Randall, but, from absolute want of time, they had not been able to read one third part of it. The motion to adjourn was negatived.
Mr. S. Smith was then proceeding with his evidence, when Mr. Sedgwick rose. He considered it as unfair to examine Mr. Smith in order to prove the information given by other gentlemen. It was totally inapplicable. The offences were as distinct as any two things could be.
Mr. Blount moved to put this question, whether any conversation passed between Mr. S. Smith and Randall, which had an appearance of intending to corrupt the integrity of members of this House.
Mr. Sedgwick objected, that this was deviating from the original specific motion. Mr. Giles was of an opposite opinion. Mr. Madison thought the motion proper, in the strictest sense. The charge was general; and the answer to the question might be of a nature to corroborate that general charge. After a few words from some other members, the motion was carried.
Mr. Smith, of Maryland, then on oath stated in substance as follows:
That on the 9th or 10th, Randall, whom he had known in Maryland, called on him and asked half an hour's conversation with him. He said he had a plan in view, that would be to the advantage of the United States, and turn to his own private emolument.
Randall informed Mr. S., that he was last year at New York, that he thence went to Detroit to explore the country on Lakes Erie, &c., that he contracted an acquaintance with certain influential characters with whom he had formed an association to procure the lands in question. He mentioned the outlines of the plan and dwelt on the public advantages that would arise from it. He indirectly insinuated that gentlemen in Congress who chose to be interested in the plan might have a portion of the land in contemplation. He asked Mr. S. to fix a day when he should enter more particularly into a detail of the business. Mr. S. fixed Saturday following, and then retired into the room where his fellow-lodger was, and told him that some great land-business was on foot and that he believed he might make his fortune. On Sunday Randall came with a map on which he explained the position of the land and expatiated on the richness of the soil. He detailed the particulars of the project which Mr. S. related as has been heretofore stated with some little variations. He enlarged upon the public advantages to the United States if the purchase was allowed. He said, he would be glad if Mr. S. would embark in the undertaking, and give the plan his countenance; but, that, if he did not choose to so do, it could be accomplished without his assistance, as a decided majority of both Houses were agreed to support it. Mr. S. asked him, whether in the Senate? he said, yes. He asked him for names; he objected to mentioning any. Randall explained, that members who were most active were to have larger shares, and such as only gave their assent, smaller; Mr. S. understood that he might have one of the larger. No money was offered as a temptation to engage, but he fully understood that every gentleman was to pay his full proportion of the price. He stated to Mr. S., that it would save the United States much in men and money to have the scheme accomplished, and added, that if Congress desired it, he could remove the Miami Indians to the other side of the lakes. Mr. S. asked him what he proposed should be offered for the lands. He said, that would remain in the breasts of the gentlemen in Congress. Mr. S. asked whether one dollar an acre could be afforded, he objected to that as by far too much. Mr. S. mentioned twenty-five cents, that was too much. Mr. S. then suggested that he supposed two and a half cents were contemplated. Randall answered, that if Congress fixed this price it would be well so. He offered no direct bribe to Mr. S., but proposed to take such members into the scheme at first cost as chose to embark in it. Mr. S. asked him who was to offer his memorial. He mentioned a gentleman of great weight in the House.
Mr. Smith, of South Carolina, asked the date of this conversation.
Mr. Smith, of Maryland, answered, on the Sunday following the 10th, which must have been the 13th.
Mr. Lewis, through the Speaker, asked Mr. S., of Maryland, whether Randall had not said, that he had actually a majority in favor of his scheme; or, that he expected to get a majority?
Mr. Smith, of Maryland, understood that he had a majority, and on this ground, he said to Mr. S. that his co-operation was not absolutely necessary.
The prisoner was remanded, and the House adjourned.