Friday, May 15.
Mr. White, one of the Representatives from Virginia, presented to the House a resolve of the Legislature of that State, of the 27th of December, 1788, offering to the acceptance of the Federal Government, ten miles square of territory, or any lesser quantity, in any part of that State, which Congress may choose, to be occupied and possessed by the United States, as the seat of the Federal Government; which was read, and ordered to lie on the table.
An engrossed bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises, imported into the United States, was read a third time, and, on a motion made, ordered to be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House immediately.
The House, accordingly, resolved itself into the said committee; and, after some time, the committee rose, and reported the bill with amendments, which were agreed to by the House.
Mr. Madison made a motion further to amend the said bill, by adding to the end thereof a clause for limiting the time of its continuance.
Mr. Ames expressed a doubt of the propriety of the motion. He thought the bill ought to be commensurate with the wants of Government.
Mr. Fitzsimons.—For want of a proper knowledge of the true situation of our affairs, we are unable to determine how far the present provision is equal to the necessities of the Union, and this circumstance will tend to add considerably to our embarrassment in limiting the duration. If we make the time too short to supply the public wants, we shall not hold out to the public creditors a sufficient security for the punctual payment of their debts. If we should want to raise money by a loan, we could only expect it according to the duration of the fund: this makes the present motion a subject of serious consideration. Not that I object to what the gentleman has in contemplation, but I wish such language to be used, that shall designate the continuation of the law to be till the wants are supplied and thereafter cease. I am not of opinion that it should be for half a century, because I hope our national debt will be extinguished in much less time; but really I must confess, at this moment, I feel considerable embarrassment in determining in my mind the period for which it should exist, whether an enumerated term of years, or a general declaration during the continuance of the public wants.
Mr. Lee thought the operation of the law could not be well understood; that it was a system of experiment, and ought to be temporary, in order that a future Congress might make such amendments as time should discover to be necessary. How perfect soever the theory might appear, practice might prove it otherwise; he therefore wished its operation limited for three or five years. He thought it would be wise in the House to adopt the motion, in order to prevent any injustice which a permanent and imperfect regulation might have on posterity. He expected this would beget confidence in the Government, which was to him a very desirable object.
Mr. White.—The constitution having authorized the House of Representatives alone to originate money bills, places an important trust in our hands, which, as their protectors, we ought not to part with. I do not mean to imply that the Senate are less to be trusted than this House; but the constitution, no doubt for wise purposes, has given the immediate Representatives of the People a control over the whole Government in this particular, which for their interest they ought not to let out of their hands. Besides, the constitution says further, that no appropriation shall be for a longer term than two years, which of consequence limits the duration of the revenue law to that period; when, if it is found conducive to the public welfare, it may be continued by the legislators appointed by the people, and who alone are authorized to declare upon this question in the first instance.
Mr. Livermore hoped but little time would be taken up in the discussion of this subject; the people were anxiously waiting the result of their deliberations; beside the impost was daily slipping away. He had no doubt of the propriety of the motion, because from the acknowledged imperfections of the bill, it would never do for a permanent system. If the people, who consider themselves subjected to very high and very unequal duties, find no termination of the grievance, they will immediately adopt measures in their defence, to thwart the views of Government; but if they understand the law as temporary, and only passed in order to gain experience for forming a better system, they will be induced to give it fair play, and bear the burthen without complaint, trusting to the wisdom and justice of Congress for such alterations as practice may show to be necessary.
Besides, the objects for which the revenue is now wanting, will decrease annually; this will be an additional reason for limiting its duration. He was not for a very short term; he thought five, seven, or ten years, would be more eligible than two or three, but he was decidedly against making it perpetual.
Mr. Sinnickson had understood, that one of the objects of the bill was the re-establishment of public credit; but it never could be imagined that a law, limited to three or four years, could do this in any great degree; nor could any advantage arise from loans negotiated and terminated within such a short period. Under these impressions, he conceived the motion struck at the credit of the new Government, which the people had just established.
Mr. Madison.—When he offered this amendment to the bill, he thought its propriety was so obvious and striking, that it would meet no opposition. To pass a bill, not limited in duration, which was to draw revenue from the pockets of the people, appeared to be dangerous in the administration of any Government; he hoped, therefore, the House would not be less cautious in this particular than other nations are, who profess to act upon sound principles. He imagined it might be considered by their constituents as incompatible with the spirit of the constitution, and dangerous to republican principles, to pass such a law unlimited in its duration.
Besides the restoration of public credit, he thought the act had in view the encouragement of a particular description of people, which might lead them into enterprises of a peculiar nature, for the protection of which the public faith seemed to be pledged. But would gentlemen infer from hence, that no alteration ought to take place if the manufactures were well established? The subject appeared to him in a twofold point of view; first, to provide for the exigencies of Government, and second, for the establishment of public credit; but he thought both these objects could be obtained without making the bill perpetual. If the Government showed a proper attention to the punctual performance of its engagements, it would obtain the latter; the other would be secured by making provision as the occasion demanded. If the bill was to be made perpetual, it would be continued after the purpose for which it was adopted had ceased; the error would in this case be irremediable; whereas, if its limitation was determined, it would always be in the power of the Government to make it commensurate with what the public debts and contingencies required.
The constitution, as had already been observed, places the power in the House of originating money bills. The principal reason why the constitution had made this distinction was, because they were chosen by the people, and supposed to be best acquainted with their interests and ability. In order to make them more particularly acquainted with these objects, the democratic branch of the Legislature consisted of a greater number, and were chosen for a shorter period, so that they might revert more frequently to the mass of the people. Now, if a revenue law was made perpetual, however unequal its operation might be, it would be out of the power of this House to effect an alteration; for if the President chose to object to the measure, it would require two-thirds of both Houses to carry it. Even if the House of Representatives were unanimous in their opinion that the law ought to be repealed, they would not be able to carry it, unless a great majority appeared in the Senate also.
Mr. Boudinot said, the time mentioned by the former Congress, and to which they requested the concurrence of the several States, was, that the impost duties might be continued for twenty-five years. This request was made on full consideration, and they did not think it was more than sufficient to discharge the principal and interest of the national debt. He concluded, therefore, that it was better to let the law remain without limitation; because when they found the purposes for which it was intended were accomplished, it would be in the power of Congress to repeal the law.
Mr. Lawrence thought the present was a subject of great importance, and he lamented it was not brought forward at an earlier period, because he feared the time would not allow that full discussion or deliberation which ought to take place. He wished also that the House was acquainted with the necessities of the United States, that so they might make provision accordingly; but these two points were mere matter of speculation as to their precise amount; yet he believed it was agreed on all hands, that the ways and means provided in this bill for the support of Government, the payment of interest and instalments of the foreign and domestic debt, were, so far as agreed to, inadequate to the object. If this be the case, the public debt must accumulate; and as we do not know when the time may come for its extinguishment, the provision cannot be limited; for every gentleman will agree, that if the demand for revenue be increased, the fund ought to be commensurate to the object. Is there any time when the civil list will cease its demand? If there is not, there will be a perpetual call for revenue. He thought it absolutely impossible to provide for the payment of the debts, if the bill was limited to two, three, or four years; such a precarious provision would never tend to the re-establishment of public credit. If the bill was not limited, it would always be in the power of the Legislature to lower the duties, or make such other alteration as might, upon experience, be thought beneficial to the community; whereas if the bill were limited, it would be thought improper to make any amendments during the term for which it is enacted, although those amendments appeared indispensably necessary. But why is this degree of caution necessary? Will not the administration of public affairs be conducted in future by representatives as good as ourselves? Will they have less wisdom or virtue, to discover and pursue the good of their fellow-citizens than we have?
Mr. Bland.—Our public credit consists of two branches: first, as it respects the evidences of our debt, in the hands of those from whom we have had money or services; and secondly, as it respects our ability to borrow in future. Now, the first branch of public credit depends upon the punctuality with which the interest is paid; but this in foreign nations, does not depend upon the limitation of the act. Do gentlemen suppose our laws, like those of the Medes and Persians, unchangeable? Can any person, who has read our constitution, believe that it is in our power to pass a law without limitation? No, it is impossible. Every person knows that a future Congress may repeal this and every other law we pass, whenever they think proper. The constitution had particularly intrusted the House of Representatives with the power of raising money; great care was necessary to preserve this privilege inviolate; it was one of the greatest securities the people had for their liberties under this Government. Moreover, the importance of the House itself depended upon holding the purse-strings; if they once part with this power, they would become insignificant, and the other branch of the Legislature might become altogether independent of them. For these reasons, he was in favor of the motion of his honorable colleague, and hoped it would obtain.
Mr. Gerry.—There seems to be a great variety of opinions entertained by gentlemen on this question. But he thought they would all agree on these two points: first, that there were very great demands upon the federal treasury; and, secondly, that they had no kind of documents to show what they were, or what the revenue bill would produce. Under these circumstances, gentlemen must agree, that there is danger of passing a law that would operate oppressively, and without reason. There was also danger of erring in the mode of collecting, for want of experience to guide them. From these considerations, there was no doubt but the act would require the reconsideration of the Legislature in a short time; there may be applications from the people of all quarters to repeal a part of it. But what are their immediate representatives to do, in case the bill be made perpetual? They may be convinced that a repeal would be just and necessary; but it may not be in their power to remedy the grievances of their constituents, however desirous they may be of doing so; for, although this House may originate and carry a bill unanimously through for the repeal, yet it will be in the power of the President, and the minority of the other branch of Congress, to prevent a repeal.
Mr. Huntingdon thought it easy to see the danger of making this bill perpetual: besides parting with the power which the constitution gave to the House of Representatives, in authorizing them solely to originate money bills, there would be another inconvenience, which was, extending the revenue beyond what the nature of the public debt required. The foreign debt was payable by instalments; it was saying nothing to allege that the debt would accumulate, because the United States must make provision for the annual extinguishment of a part. If the revenue, arising from the impost, be insufficient for this purpose, recourse must be had to some other fund, which will enable us to perform the engagements of the late Congress. It is true the debt is large, and will take time to pay it off, but he had no doubt but it would be done according to contract, and with honor to the Union. How, then, can gentlemen suppose the revenue ought to be perpetual, in order to be commensurate with the object? If they contemplated the contraction of more debts in future, the supposition might be true; but he saw no reason why gentlemen should extend their views so far. He thought if a future war, or some other untoward circumstance, should increase the national debt, it ought to be provided for by the Government who were acquainted with the necessity. He thought the House ought to consider seriously before they parted with their powers; it was easy for them to pass a bill to give power, but it was difficult to recall it. He had seen many instances of this kind; one in particular in the State from which he came, where the Legislature had given the appointment of sheriffs, and some other little matters, out of their hands, and had been a long time endeavoring to get it back; but they had not been able to obtain it. He had no suspicions of any character in the Senate, but the constitution had made that body in some degree perpetual, to obtain a permanency in the laws; if, therefore, this revenue bill had once their approbation, they might be inclined to continue it, even against the sentiments of the people and of the House. Though he was not against trusting the gentlemen who now composed the Senate, he was against trusting their successors.
Mr. Smith, of South Carolina, was also in favor of the clause; he conceived the only reason of weight urged against it, related to the restoration of public credit; but he thought every person possessed of the stock or debt of the United States would have the same feelings and reasoning as the House; they would know that their demands depended upon a higher source than Congress, and might be sure that we would do our duty in making particular provision. If Congress neglected this, one part of the creditors would compel them. If it was found that the United States were not disposed to pay their debts, foreigners would find the means to make them. Taking it therefore for granted, that Congress would always provide for these objects, he would proceed to consider what effect might arise from a permanent or temporary provision. If the latter were made, the creditors would honor us for our exertions, and confide in our continuing to provide for them in the manner we should find upon experience most convenient to the community. If the system was declared to be a perpetual provision for the payment of their interest, it would give no hope, in the first place, for the redemption of the capital; and in the second, if Congress were to alter it, and which, in all probability they shortly must, the security would be impaired, and an essential injury done to the public credit, which we are so desirous to revive.
Mr. Ames considered this as a very important question; and in order that his own mind might be fully enlightened, he had listened with the most unwearied attention to the arguments urged on both sides; but he was far from being satisfied that the motion was necessary or proper for the House to adopt.
Gentlemen tell us they are willing to make the revenue commensurate with the debt. If they do this, all the inconveniences resulting from the imperfection of the system will be entailed upon us for a number of years. Other gentlemen mention a year or two for its limitation. Can the House listen seriously to such a proposition? If we were to tell our creditors that we are making provision for them for one year, would it tend to inspire them with confidence in our wisdom or justice? Would our foreign creditors believe we were scrupulously fulfilling our engagements with them? No: nothing less than a fixed, permanent system, can beget confidence or give security. An illusory system of one or two years' duration would engender distrust; its very visage would make the public suspect deception. If we do not mean to deceive, why not make the provision commensurate to the occasion? His idea of a temporary act was pro hac vice, by way of experiment: but he thought the House could not make the experiment with this bill, because the public credit would not admit of it. If this act be made for one year, will it not be a considerable expense to the public by going over all the ground again, which had taken the House such a length of time to discuss?
What has been the conduct of Great Britain, in relation to her funds? What has carried the credit of that kingdom to a superior eminence, but the attention she has paid to public credit? He considered these advantages as having made that nation rich and powerful. He believed a like conduct on our part would produce the same consequences, because our Government is of such a nature as to give the public creditors the greatest security they could wish. If the revenue is appropriated, and the law for collecting it is without any limitation, the funds cannot be taken away without a positive act of injustice, to which both Houses of the Legislature must assent by a majority of two-thirds, or three independent parties must unite. It was therefore three to one in favor of the public creditor, that the funds appropriated to his use would not be annihilated. Under these circumstances, Government might more safely be trusted. This, he observed, was not the case under despotic princes; their will alone could tear away the security of the subject. Under a pure democracy, the case was almost as bad; no confidence could be placed, because the caprice and whim of one body could dictate a change.
Mr. Page expressed his surprise to find gentlemen opposed to the limitation of the bill, who had complained so much of its imperfections. He thought a measure of the kind now proposed absolutely necessary to reconcile these gentlemen to particular parts of the bill. For his own part, he had objections to some articles, and for that reason, if there was no other, he would be in favor of the limitation. It had been frequently asserted that half the revenue would be lost by smuggling. Can this, then, he would ask, be a bill proper to perpetuate, or fit for the restoration of the credit of the United States? He asked gentlemen whether they would lend a hand to rivet round the necks of their fellow-citizens a regulation which experience had convinced them was unjust, unequal, and oppressive? Yet the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Ames) had declared that experience had convinced him that at least one particular article was subjected to a duty of this kind.
Mr. Gerry asked his colleague if he advocated carrying the taxes to such an extent as to accumulate sums in the treasury for which the United States had no particular use? Yet if this revenue law were made perpetual, it would collect money into the public coffers after the national debt was paid. This would be such a temptation to the Executive to possess itself by force of the treasures of the nation, as he hoped would never be put in its way. If our commerce and population increased, this revenue would increase in the same proportion. He could not, therefore, bear the idea of all this money being collected into one spot, unless there was an absolute demand for it. He thought it incompatible with the liberty and security of the people, and therefore hoped the House would agree to a short limitation.
Mr. Madison, for the sake of accommodation, would make another proposition. He was extremely sorry to differ with gentlemen about modes, when their object appeared to be the same. He thought the spirit of the constitution and the structure of the Government rendered it improper to pass a perpetual revenue law. The arguments had been clear on this point; but as there was an evident propriety in making the means commensurate to the occasion, he was inclined to give the bill such a perpetuity as would answer the purpose of providing for the public debt and restoring the national credit. He thought this might be done by modifying his motion so as to refer to the collection bill; for he hoped, before that passed, the House would be able to ascertain the appropriation, and could limit it accordingly. The words he would propose were, that this act should not continue and be in force longer than the —— day of ——, unless otherwise limited by the act providing for the appropriation. As he had heard it intimated that the yeas and nays would be called on this question, he was desirous of rendering the clause as satisfactory as possible.
Mr. Ames could not bear to lie under the imputation of inconsistency, with which he was charged, inasmuch as he contended against the limitation of a bill he had opposed as oppressive in some of its parts. He believed the amendment now offered was new to almost every gentleman. For his part, he had always supposed it was intended as a permanent system. He remembered many gentlemen made use of this expression, through the various debates which had taken place in the several stages of the bill. He had understood it in this light, and had therefore combated, with some degree of energy, such parts as appeared to him impolitic or unjust. He imagined the gentlemen on both sides had labored to make the bill as perfect as possible, with a view of making an equitable provision for the public exigencies, which should affect all parts of the Union with the greatest degree of impartiality.
Mr. Sherman observed, that when Congress applied to the several States for the five per cent. impost, they judged it would enable them to extinguish the national debt in twenty-five years; but, in addition to this fund, they expected to make annual requisitions on the States, for one and a half million of dollars at least; so that gentlemen could not expect the whole to be paid by this single fund in a short time. He wished a limitation to the law in general terms, such as until the debt, foreign and domestic, is discharged. He thought a short term would made an unfavorable impression upon the minds of the public creditors, and tend in a great measure to cloud the happy prospects that began to brighten the political hemisphere of this country.
Mr. Gerry expressed an intention of calling the yeas and nays if he was supported, because he thought it a question in which the essential interests of the people were deeply involved.
Mr. Lawrence said, he held his present opinion upon the purest principles of patriotism, and an ardent love for his country's happiness. He had no objection to the yeas and nays being taken, as he was not inclined to disguise his sentiments.
Mr. Page was glad the yeas and nays were called, as it would give gentlemen an opportunity of showing to their constituents their approbation of a measure calculated to secure the blessings of liberty to themselves and posterity.
Several members rose to speak on this question, when Mr. Ames moved the adjournment, fearing gentlemen would grow warm upon the question.
Whereupon, the House adjourned.