Monday, May 11.
On Titles.
The House took into consideration the message from the Senate, communicated on Saturday last, respecting the disagreement of the Senate to the report of a joint committee, on the subject of annexing titles to the offices of President and Vice President.
Mr. Parker moved a resolution to the following effect:
Resolved, That this House having, on Tuesday last, adopted the report of their committee appointed to confer with a committee of the Senate, stating, "That it is not proper to annex any style or title to the respective styles or titles of office expressed in the constitution;" and having, in their address to the President of the United States on Friday last, proceeded to act pursuant thereto, deem it improper to accede to the proposition made by the Senate, as communicated by their order of the 9th instant, for appointing a committee to confer with a committee of this House, in considering and reporting under what title it will be proper for the President of the United States in future to be addressed.
Mr. Page seconded the motion, observing, that in his opinion, the House had no right to interfere in the business: the constitution expressly prescribed the power of Congress as to bestowing titles. He did not conceive the real honor or dignity of either of those situations to consist in high sounding titles. The House had, on a former occasion, expressed their disapprobation of any title being annexed to their own members, and very justly too. After having so fully and explicitly declared their sentiments against such measures, he thought it behooved them to be explicit with the Senate. Indeed, he felt himself a good deal hurt, that gentlemen on this floor, after having refused their permission to the Clerk to enter any more than their plain names on the journal, should be standing up and addressing one another by the title of "the honorable gentlemen." He wished the practice could be got over, because it added neither to the honor nor dignity of the House.
Mr. Lee approved of the appointment of a committee to confer with a committee of the Senate, as to the mode due to the occasion; but he was against adding any title.
Mr. Tucker.—When this business was first brought before the House, I objected to the appointment of a committee to confer with a committee of the Senate, because I thought it a subject which this House had no right to take into consideration. I then stood single and unsupported in my opinion, but have had the pleasure to find since, that some gentlemen on this floor agree that I was right. If I was then right, I shall, from stronger reasoning, be right now in opposing the appointment of another committee on the same subject. The joint committee reported that no titles ought to be given; we agreed to the report, and I was in hopes we should have heard no more of the matter. The Senate rejected the report, and have now sent us a resolution, expressive of a determination to give a title, to which they desire our concurrence. I am still of the opinion that we were wrong in appointing the first committee, and think that we shall be guilty of greater impropriety if we now appoint another. What, sir, is the intention of this business? Will it not alarm our fellow-citizens? Will it not give them just cause of alarm? Will they not say, that they have been deceived by the convention that framed the constitution? That it has been contrived with a view to lead them on by degrees to that kind of government which they have thrown off with abhorrence? Shall we not justify the fears of those who were opposed to the constitution, because they considered it as insidious and hostile to the liberties of the people? One of its warmest advocates, one of the framers of it, (Mr. Wilson, of Pennsylvania,) has recommended it by calling it a pure democracy. Does this look like a democracy, when one of the first acts of the two branches of the Legislature is to confer titles? Surely not. To give dignity to our government, we must give a lofty title to our chief magistrate. Does the dignity of a nation consist in the distance between the first magistrate and his citizens? Does it consist in the exaltation of one man, and the humiliation of the rest? If so, the most despotic government is the most dignified; and to make our dignity complete, we must give a high title, an embroidered robe, a princely equipage, and, finally, a crown and hereditary succession. Let us, sir, establish tranquillity and good order at home, and wealth, strength, and national dignity will be the infallible result. The aggregate of dignity will be the same whether it be divided among all, or centred in one. And whom, sir, do we mean to gratify? Is it our present President? Certainly, if we expect to please him, we shall be greatly disappointed. He has a real dignity of character, and is above such little vanities. We shall give him infinite pain; we shall do him an essential injury. We shall place him in a most delicate and disagreeable situation; we shall reduce him to the necessity of evincing to the world his disapprobation of our measures, or of risking some diminution of that high reputation for disinterested patriotism which he has so justly acquired. It is not for his gratification; for whose, then, are we to do this? Where is the man among us who has the presumption and vanity to expect it? Who is it that shall say—for my aggrandizement three millions of people have entered into a calamitous war; they have persevered in it for eight long years; they have sacrificed their property, they have spilt their blood, they have rendered thousands of families wretched by the loss of their only protectors and means of support? This spirit of imitation, sir, this spirit of mimicry and apery will be the ruin of our country. Instead of giving us dignity in the eye of foreigners, it will expose us to be laughed at as apes. They gave us credit for our exertions in effecting the revolution, but they will say that we want independence of spirit to render it a blessing to us.
Mr. Trumbull moved for the appointment of a Committee of Conference, to consider on the difference which appeared in the votes of the two Houses upon the report of the joint committee.
Mr. Burke hoped the House would express their decided disapprobation of bestowing titles in any shape whatever; it would be an indignity in the House to countenance any measures of this nature. Perhaps some gentlemen might think the subject was a matter of indifference; but it did not appear to him in that light. The introduction of two words which he could mention into the titles of these officers, would alter the constitution itself; but he would forbear to say any thing further, as he had a well-grounded expectation that the House would take no further notice of the business.
Mr. Goodhue thought the conference unnecessary, because the House had not only adopted the report of their committee, but proceeded to act in pursuance thereof.
Mr. Seney joined the last gentleman in sentiment, and thought it an unnecessary waste of time to give the subject any longer discussion.
Mr. Madison.—I may be well disposed to concur in opinion with gentlemen that we ought not to recede from our former vote on this subject, yet at the same time I may wish to proceed with due respect to the Senate, and give dignity and weight to our own opinion, so far as it contradicts theirs, by the deliberate and decent manner in which we decide. For my part, Mr. Speaker, I do not conceive titles to be so pregnant with danger as some gentlemen apprehend. I believe a President of the United States, clothed with all the powers given in the constitution, would not be a dangerous person to the liberties of America, if you were to load him with all the titles of Europe or Asia. We have seen superb and august titles given, without conferring power and influence, or without even obtaining respect. One of the most impotent sovereigns in Europe has assumed a title as high as human invention can devise; for example, what words can imply a greater magnitude of power and strength than that of High Mightiness? This title seems to border almost upon impiety; it is assuming the pre-eminence and omnipotence of the Deity; yet this title, and many others cast in the same mould, have obtained a long time in Europe, but have they conferred power? Does experience sanction such an opinion? Look at the republic I have alluded to, and say if their present state warrants the idea.
I am not afraid of titles, because I fear the danger of any power they could confer, but I am against them because they are not very reconcilable with the nature of our Government or the genius of the people. Even if they were proper in themselves, they are not so at this juncture of time. But my strongest objection is founded in principle; instead of increasing, they diminish the true dignity and importance of a republic, and would in particular, on this occasion, diminish the true dignity of the first magistrate himself. If we give titles, we must either borrow or invent them. If we have recourse to the fertile fields of luxuriant fancy, and deck out an airy being of our own creation, it is a great chance but its fantastic properties would render the empty phantom ridiculous and absurd. If we borrow, the servile imitation will be odious, not to say ridiculous also; we must copy from the pompous sovereigns of the East, or follow the inferior potentates of Europe; in either case, the splendid tinsel or gorgeous robe would disgrace the manly shoulders of our chief. The more truly honorable shall we be, by showing a total neglect and disregard to things of this nature; the more simple, the more republican we are in our manners, the more rational dignity we shall acquire; therefore, I am better pleased with the report adopted by the House, than I should have been with any other whatsoever.
The Senate, no doubt, entertain different sentiments on this subject. I would wish, therefore, to treat their opinion with respect and attention. I would desire to justify the reasonable and republican decision of this House to the other branch of Congress in order to prevent a misunderstanding. But that the motion of my worthy colleague (Mr. Parker) has possession of the House, I would move a more temperate proposition, and I think it deserves some pains to bring about that good will and urbanity, which for the despatch of public business ought to be kept up between the two Houses. I do not think it would be a sacrifice of dignity to appoint a Committee of Conference, but imagine it would tend to cement that harmony which has hitherto been preserved between the Senate and this House; therefore, while I concur with the gentlemen who express, in such decided terms, their disapprobation of bestowing titles, I concur also with those who are for the appointment of a Committee of Conference, not apprehending they will depart from the principles adopted and acted upon by the House.
Mr. White did not approve of a Committee of Conference, because the House had already determined the question by unanimously adopting the report of the joint committee. He did not think that it was worth while having the subject longer contested; he was satisfied both the spirit of the constitution and the spirit of the people disapproved of titles.
Mr. Bland would be careful of giving umbrage to the Senate, because he wished that the unanimity and moderation which subsisted between the two Houses might continue. He considered the present as a very proper opportunity for the appointment of a Committee of Conference. The two Houses had disagreed on the report of their committees; it was proper, therefore, that they should mutually assign their reasons, in order to bring about an agreement to the same resolution. He hoped, therefore, that such a committee would be appointed, though he had no expectation that the House would give up an opinion they so justly and decidedly entertained respecting titles.
Mr. Parker wanted to know what was the object of gentlemen in the appointment of a Committee of Conference? The committee could only say that the House had refused their consent to annexing any titles whatever to the President and Vice President; for certainly the committee would not descend into the merits of a question already established by the House. For his part, he could not see what purpose was to be answered by the appointment of such a committee. He wished to have done with the subject, because while it remained a question in the House, the people's minds would be much agitated; it was impossible that a true republican spirit could remain unconcerned when a principle was under consideration, so repugnant to the principles of equal liberty.
Mr. Sherman thought it was pretty plain that the House could not comply with the proposition of the Senate. The appointment of a committee, on the part of the House, to consider and determine what style or title will be proper to annex to the President and Vice President, would imply that the House meant that some style or title should be given. Now this they never could intend, because they have decided that no style or title ought to be given; it will be sufficient to adduce this reason for not complying with the request of the Senate.
Mr. Jackson wondered what title the Senate had in contemplation to add dignity or lustre to the person that filled the presidential chair. For his part, he could conceive none. Would it add to his fame to be called after the petty and insignificant princes of Europe? Would styling him His Serene Highness, His Grace, or Mightiness, add one tittle to the solid properties he possessed? He thought it would not; and therefore conceived the proposition to be trifling with the dignity of the Government. As a difference had taken place between the two Houses, he had no objection to a conference taking place. He hoped it might be productive of good consequences, and that the Senate might be induced to follow the laudable example of the House.
Mr. Madison was of opinion, that the House might appoint a Committee of Conference without being supposed to countenance the measure. The standing rule of the House declared, that, in case of disagreeing votes, a Committee of Conference should be appointed. Now, as the case provided for in the rule had actually happened, he inferred that it was proper to proceed in the manner directed by the rules of the House. The subject was still open to discussion, but there was little probability that the House would rescind their adoption of the report. I presume gentlemen do not intend to compel the Senate into their measures; they should recollect that the Senate stand upon independent ground, and will do nothing but what they are convinced of the propriety of; it would be better, therefore, to treat them with delicacy, and offer some reasons to induce them to come into our measure. He expected this would be the result of a conference, and therefore was in favor of such a motion.
Mr. Seney intended nothing disrespectful to the Senate, but he conceived, after having adopted the report of the committee, it would derogate from their own dignity to rescind a unanimous resolution; and for what other purpose could a conference be appointed by the House? They must certainly suppose that there might be ground for changing their opinion. Nothing of this kind appeared to him, and therefore he was of opinion, it would be a useless consumption to waste any more time about it.
Mr. Clymer thought that there was little occasion to add any title to either the President or Vice President. He was very well convinced, by experience, that titles did not confer power; on the contrary, they frequently made their possessors ridiculous. The most impotent potentates, the most insignificant powers, generally assumed the highest and most lofty titles. That they do not indicate power and prerogative, is very observable in the English history; for when the chief magistrate of that nation bore the simple style of His Grace or Highness, his prerogatives were much more extensive than since he has become His Most Sacred Majesty.
Titular distinctions are said to be unpopular in the United States; yet a person would be led to think otherwise, from the vast number of honorable gentlemen we have in America. As soon as a man is selected for the public service, his fellow-citizens, with liberal hand, shower down titles on him—either excellency or honorable. He would venture to affirm, there were more honorable esquires in the United States than in all the world besides. He wished to check a propensity so notoriously evidenced in favor of distinctions, and hoped the example of the House might prevail to extinguish that predilection which appeared in favor of titles.
Mr. Page.—If I thought the motion made by my colleague in the least degree disrespectful, I should not have seconded it. I would be the last man on this floor to treat that worthy body with disrespect; but I believe it cannot be construed to have such a meaning. If we were to let the resolution lie on the table, it would not be disrespectful. But what is the object of the motion? Simply to inform the Senate that we cannot rescind a resolution adopted in consequence of the report of a joint committee. If the conduct of either House is in the least degree disrespectful, (though I do not conceive it is,) the body who declined adopting the report, after knowing the sense of the other to be in its favor, is the most so.
But on what are a committee to confer? Not upon what title shall be bestowed, because we have no right to enter on the subject; and here I must tell gentlemen I differ from them, when they think titles can do no harm. Titles, sir, I say, may do harm, and have done harm. If we contend now for a right to confer titles, I apprehend the time will come when we shall form a reservoir for honor, and make our President the fountain of it. In such case, may not titles do an injury to the Union? They have been the occasion of an eternal faction in the kingdom we were formerly connected with, and may beget like inquietude in America; for I contend, if you give the title, you must follow it with the robe and the diadem, and then the principles of your government are subverted.
Mr. Lee moved the previous question, as the best mode of getting rid of the motion before the House: he was supported by a sufficient number. And on the question, Shall the main question be now put? it passed in the negative; and so the motion was lost.
On motion, it was
Resolved, That a committee be appointed, to join with such committee as the Senate may appoint, to confer on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses, upon the report of their joint committee, appointed to consider what titles shall be given to the President and Vice President of the United States, if any other than those given in the constitution.
Messrs. Madison, Page, Benson, Trumbull, and Sherman were the committee elected.
Impost Bill.
The House then went into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States. Mr. Page in the chair.
The question on laying a duty on molasses being under consideration:
Mr. Tucker.—Notwithstanding I am anxious for a reduction of the duties on all the articles in the bill, yet my vote on molasses will be regulated by what the committee shall determine in other cases, as I do not conceive it to be out of proportion. If a general reduction takes place on the other articles, I shall be disposed to make a reduction on this article; but as mine is but a single vote, gentlemen may not be inclined to favor my proposition for a general reduction in order to gain my assent to a reduction on this particular article.
Mr. Goodhue was of opinion that the duties were too high for collection; but he did not agree with the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Tucker) that the duty on molasses was rated in proportion to the other articles, and therefore the question, whether molasses shall be reduced or not, did not depend on a general reduction, but on its own bottom; if it was rated too high for collection and proportion, the committee would agree to reduce it.
Mr. Fitzsimons expected the gentleman from South Carolina would vote in the manner he had pledged himself; he had promised to vote for reducing the duty on molasses if the committee reduced the duty on other articles; now, as they had decided against a reduction, he hoped the gentleman would be in favor of the duty on molasses, as it stood in the bill, and not vote in the manner he had promised.
Mr. Tucker.—The gentleman last up has certainly misunderstood me. I made no promise. I said my vote would depend upon the reduction of the other articles, but I was indifferent as to rum; I did not consider the State I represented as being either particularly benefited or injured by a duty on rum; and therefore did not urge any arguments in favor of reducing that article, more than I thought it might be proper to preserve the ratio, as fixed by the House, between the several articles. If gentlemen think rum can bear a high duty, and be safely collected, I have no objection to letting it remain. But there are some articles that bear heavily and unequally upon South Carolina; now, I think it my duty to vote in such a manner as to prevent her from bearing an undue proportion of the tax to be collected; I am, consequently, obliged to vote for a high tax on articles used in other States, (if my State is highly taxed,) however unequally it may fall. I shall therefore vote so as to endeavor to oblige other States to bear their true proportion of the aggregate sum. I wish to defer any determination on the article of molasses until we have gone through the other articles, that I may know how to vote on this. If gentlemen think my single vote of no consequence, they may proceed; but I may think the duty too high on molasses, and may be disposed to make it five cents, or less, if a reduction is made in the other articles; but I would not be understood to pledge myself for any particular sum.
Mr. Ames thought the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Fitzsimons) had misunderstood the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Tucker) respecting his pledging himself to vote in favor of molasses. He believed the gentleman from South Carolina incapable of making any improper accommodation either on this or any other occasion; the subject had never been mentioned to him, nor he believed to any body else, much less could the gentleman's intention be the result of bargain or compromise. For his own part, he would never consent to such a degradation of his rights as a member of the House, as to stipulate for the exercise of his opinion.
Mr. Tucker.—If the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Fitzsimons) supposes that I have bargained to vote for or against any measure, he does me wrong; and if he charges me with such actions, I desire he may state his reasons and explain himself. I did not hear perfectly what he said when he was up before, and therefore did not refute any improper construction he might have put on my arguments.
Mr. Fitzsimons had no difficulty in declaring his meaning. He understood when the article of rum was under consideration, that the gentleman held out a promise to vote for the reduction of the duty on molasses, if the committee would agree with him in reducing generally. This promise was not made in a private manner; it was made by the gentleman in his place. He could not recite the particular expression of the gentleman, but he understood from it that the gentleman pledged himself to reduce the duty on molasses, if the gentlemen from the Eastern States would join him in a general reduction.
Mr. Tucker.—I expressed a wish for a general reduction to take place throughout the whole system; but I never made a promise with regard to a reduction of any particular article.
Mr. Seney observed, that the discussion of molasses had been deferred when the subject was last before the House, in order to give time for a full investigation; but he conceived that no such reason now existed, in favor of its lying over, and therefore hoped the House would proceed to decide upon it.
Mr. Ames was willing to proceed to the consideration of that subject; he did not wish it deferred to the end of the list, that it might be held over them in terrorem. There were several articles in the list, which he did not conceive to be taxed too high for collection, or out of proportion with others, therefore it was likely they would not be reduced. If this was the case, the reduction would not be general, and the gentleman from South Carolina might not think it his duty to favor the reduction of molasses. He wished every article to stand upon its own bottom. If molasses was too high, the committee would lower it; if not, they will continue it at the rate it is, and the business would be done with. If the committee were disposed to proceed, he was ready to take up the subject.
Mr. Carroll saw no reason for postponing the business at this time. When the subject was suspended on a former occasion, several gentlemen from Massachusetts were absent on business, but it was surely unnecessary now to have any delay. After the repeated discussions it had undergone, he was satisfied gentlemen were prepared for a decision, and he hoped the question might be taken, and the committee proceed to get through the business. Gentlemen should consider the daily loss which the revenue sustained by the delay of this bill; he cautioned them against considering overmuch, and letting slip the opportunity they now had to supply the public wants.
Mr. Wadsworth would not go over the old ground, and enumerate all the reasons why a reduction of the duty on this article should take place. He satisfied himself with saying it was out of proportion, and too high ever to be collected with certainty; he wished the committee to lower it to three or four cents, and apply to an excise for the deficiency, not conceiving an excise on distilled spirits to be inconvenient or unpopular.
Mr. Ames was sensible that any further discussion of the present subject was unpleasant, nay, it was painful to the committee; but he had such impressions on his mind with regard to its importance, that he must trespass on them again. On all subjects demonstration is desirable, but there is only one science capable of complete demonstration. Many other sciences admit of different degrees of demonstration; but of all the sciences on earth, the science of politics is the least capable of affording satisfactory conclusions, while it is the one that, from its importance, requires the greatest degree of certainty; because when we are to consider those things which relate to the welfare of nations, it is of consequence, and nothing can be more desirable than that we adopt just principles in order to come at proper conclusions. In this science it is dangerous to adopt the visionary projects of speculators instead of principle. We ought to be cautious, therefore, in selecting the information upon which we form our system.
He trusted to make it appear in the course of his arguments, that the propriety of the particular measure under discussion depended upon local knowledge, and yet it would be found of national concern. He believed it could be clearly proved to be as much the interest of one part as of another to have the duty reduced.
It was laid down as a principle that all duties ought to be equal. He believed, if gentlemen gave themselves time for consideration, they would not contend this duty was equal. He said he had made some calculations, which demonstrated the inequality to a very surprising degree. The tax operated in two ways: first, as a tax on a raw material, which increased the price of stock and narrowed the sale; and second, as a tax on an article of consumption. It required the distillation and the consumption to be equal in every part of the Union to render the duty equal in its operation; but no gentleman contended that the consumption or distillation was equal. The gentleman from Virginia said, on a former occasion, that Massachusetts would not contribute her proportion of the national revenue, because her exports were not equal to the Southern States, and of consequence her imports are less; but if this fact is examined, it will be found that she does export in full proportion with the Southern States. Examine her custom-house books, and you will find it; but Massachusetts is greatly concerned in navigation, and the wages of her seamen ought to be added to the amount of the profits of her industry. Then if we consider her consumption, we shall find it in proportion also. Admitting the people of New England to live more moderate than the opulent citizens of Virginia or Carolina, yet they have not such a number of blacks among them, whose living is wretched; consequently, the average consumption per head will be nearly the same. The fact is, that all taxes of this nature will fall generally in proportion to the ability to pay.
Laying a heavy duty on molasses incurs the necessity of allowing a drawback on country rum. By this system, we may lose more revenue than we gain; anyhow, it will render it very uncertain. It is a question of some importance, whether it would not be beneficial to the United States to establish a manufacture which would be very lucrative. But waiving that consideration, he would ask gentlemen, if there was any propriety in taxing molasses in its raw state, with a duty intended to be laid on rum? Certainly this had better be by way of excise. In this mode the revenue would escape fraud by smuggling, which would otherwise be unavoidable. The tax was such a temptation, being thirty per cent. upon its value, that no checks could prevent a clandestine trade being carried on.
Without the molasses trade is continued, the fishery cannot be carried on. They are so intimately connected, that the weapon which wounds the one will stab the other. If by such measures as these we ruin one of the most valuable interests of the United States, will not the people have a right to complain that, instead of protecting, you injure and destroy their pursuits? He did not mean to say that the people would form unwarrantable combinations; but their exertions to support the Government will be damped; they will look with chagrin on the disappointment of their hopes; and it will add to their vexation that they have been deceived under the most flattering appearances; for who could conceive that a Government, constructed and adopted in the manner this has been, could ever be administered to the destruction of that welfare which it was formed to support?
He recommended experience as the best guide, and said, that it was decidedly against high duties, particularly on molasses; and concluded with appealing to the justice and wisdom of the committee for a determination on this subject.
Mr. Carroll would not take up the time of the committee with saying a word on the main subject, but begged them to consider of how much importance it was to the Union to get this bill into operation. If every article was to be again debated in the manner it had already been, he could see no end to the business. Unless gentlemen could advance some new and weighty arguments, he thought the time misspent in recapitulating those that had been unsuccessfully urged twice or three times before.
Mr. Madison thought the arguments against the duty were inconsistent. He believed the gentlemen in opposition had not replied to an observation he had made, and which was of great force on his mind. The gentlemen all say that a heavy duty will ruin the distilleries and fisheries, and the people concerned in them; yet they profess themselves willing to lay the same duty, but in two forms instead of one. Now he would be glad to know if the distilleries and fisheries would not be precisely in the same situation, let which would take place?
On motion, the committee rose, and the House adjourned.