REFERENCE OF THE ANSWER TO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE.
March 31.—Mr. Blount moved that the Message be referred to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union.
Mr. Giles was of opinion it had better be referred to a Committee of the Whole simply.
Mr. Sedgwick saw no reason for such a reference. He wished gentlemen would point out the object of the motion.
Mr. Thatcher saw no good to be obtained by referring it. The House had requested the President to lay certain papers before them; the President answers, that he has none for them. Why a reference? The House asked a question; the President answered in the negative—for what purpose refer the answer? what would be gained by it?
Mr. Blount observed, that the President's Message stands upon the journals of the House; he wished, also, that the House should state upon their journals the reasons which influenced them to make the request. Perhaps, also, he said, a consideration of the Message might lead to some further measure proper to be adopted. He was indifferent whether it was referred to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, or a Committee of the Whole, simply.
Mr. Nicholas remarked that it was prejudging the question to say that nothing could arise out of a consideration of the Message. The present is a crisis important in the affairs of the country, independently of the Treaty. If the Message was a proper subject of discussion, it was proper to refer it to a Committee of the Whole. He did not think a reference to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union proper; because the Message points to a subject differing from that referred to that committee. The investigation at any rate could produce nothing wrong.
Mr. Giles said, that the member from North Carolina (Mr. Blount) had explained the object he had in view by a reference. He preferred a reference to a Committee of the Whole, independently; because the Message itself would furnish matter enough for consideration by itself. He should object to its being referred to the Committee of the Whole, who are to take into consideration the British Treaty; because he never would consent to act upon that subject till the papers deemed material to the investigation were laid upon the table. He hoped the reference to a Committee of the Whole, generally, would be agreed to. It certainly would be proper for the House to state their reasons for the call. This call had given rise to a great constitutional question; the President had stated the reasons of his opinion; if the House were not convinced by them, (and he owned that, for one, he was not,) then it would be proper that they should present to the public their reasons for differing with him.
Mr. Thatcher argued, that the reasons of the House were contained in the speeches of members in favor of the motion; the papers had been filled with them, and a pamphlet was going to be published containing them all. If this was not sufficient, the gentlemen had better direct the pamphlet to be copied on the journals.
Mr. Williams considered this a new question, and wished for time to consider. The President's Message is only an answer to a request of the House. It does not call for any thing to be done, then why a reference? Such a reference would be unprecedented. Entering the reasons of the House on the journals could produce no good. The House could not call for the papers more than they had done. He reminded the House that three weeks had already been spent in agreeing to the call; if they agreed to the present motion, they would spend as much more in agreeing to the reasons. The President, in his Message, had mentioned the proceedings of the grand Convention; this was a new topic to him not started in debate; when the Treaty is before the House, perhaps they might wish to have the Message before them on that ground. He should vote for the reference if gentlemen could assign (what they had not yet done) a proper motive for it.
Mr. Sedgwick urged that the reasons of the majority would make a large book. Were the Committee of the Whole to turn authors and write a dissertation on part of the constitution? The people did not send their Representatives here for any such purpose, and he hoped it would not be persisted in. If the reasons of the House were to be drafted, he ventured to predict, that they would reach the end of their political career before the discussion that must necessarily arise upon them would be brought to a close. Such a measure would be unprecedented, and lead to a great waste of time, and continually defeat the real objects of their mission. The session had been long enough already, and it must be lengthened to accomplish the necessary business of it. If the gentlemen would write books, he was confident every body would buy them; but he could not see the propriety of the present motion.
Mr. Blount observed, that the President refers, in his Message, to the debate in the House, and insinuates that the House contend for a right not given them by the constitution. This was the first instance of any importance of a difference between the House of Representatives and the Executive respecting a great constitutional point; it was then proper to make such a disposal of the Message as to enable the House to state their reasons in support of their opinion, that the people may be rightly informed, that they may see the House is attempting no encroachment.
Mr. Heath hoped the Message would not be passed over in silence. The President surely is not infallible. A very important constitutional question is involved; he hoped the reference would be agreed to.
Mr. Sitgreaves was against the motion. The House have made a demand on the President; the President refused it; this must naturally put an end to the correspondence on this subject. The difference of sentiment between the two branches is not sufficient reason for converting the journals of the House into a volume of debates. If the majority are to place their reasons, the minority cannot be denied the same indulgence; then for a rejoinder, rebutters, surrebutters, without end. From the practice of the House, in a case analogous, a rule of conduct for the present case may be drawn. When a bill is sent to the President, if he dislikes it, he negatives and sends it to the House with his reasons. Those reasons are put on the journals, as directed by the constitution; but it contains nothing to direct or authorize the majority to register their reasons, and thus to enter into a controversy. The return bill is put to vote, and if two-thirds of each House agree to it, it passes; if not, it falls to the ground, but no reasons are entered on the part of the House.
Mr. Gallatin said he did not expect the motion for a reference would have met with any opposition. Some members are of opinion, that the Message should be passed over in silence; others had resolved to ground some act upon it. There exists a difference, then, on this first point. The natural course is, then, a reference to a Committee of the Whole, to determine whether the House would act further on the business.
In Committee of the Whole a discussion could be had concerning the propriety of acting further on the Message. When the House made the call for papers, they did not give their reasons in the resolution; it was but a bare request. The President decided he could not comply with it. If he had stopped here, perhaps there might be grounds for ending the correspondence here; but he was not satisfied with this, but has entered into his motives for refusing. Indeed, he had gone further; he had adverted to the debates had in the House. He may be mistaken as to the motives he ascribes to the House. In this delicate situation it is certainly right to notice the Message, and to explain the real motives of the House in support of the motion. If it is a novelty to reply to an answer of the President's, it was equally a novelty, also, in making an answer to notice a debate in support of a resolution. It is necessary to refer the Message to a Committee of the Whole, to determine how to act. He declared his mind was not made up upon this point, and therefore he wished it referred to a Committee of the Whole. Not, however, to the Committee on the state of the Union, because there exists no connection with the subject referred to that committee. Referring to a Committee of the Whole is deciding nothing, but only determining to examine; it could not decide on the propriety of acting.
Mr. Cooper said, that the further the gentlemen travelled a wrong road, the further they would get out of a true course, and the more difficult it would be to return.
Mr. Harper observed, that this was not the first attempt to get the House to do something, to commit them to do something further. A motion is now made to refer the Message to a Committee of the Whole, and the House are told, that if the motion be carried, it is nothing, it is deciding nothing, but will only lead to an inquiry whether the House ought to act. He insisted that such a reference would in fact be determining that they would act, and then, in committee, they would determine how, and in that committee, he said they would be asked, why did the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole if not to act? So, when the Indian Treaty was ratified, a motion was made to request the President to lay it before the House. When it was laid before them, it was then contended that the House had a right to interfere in the Treaty, or why ask for it? It could not be supposed that gentlemen of any understanding could be imposed upon by such a flimsy sophistry. It was now the proper time, and the House the proper place, he contended, to settle the principle whether the House would sanction any further proceedings on the Message. What reason could be adduced for acting? It is said that the President has not only refused the papers, but given his reasons for the refusal, and that his reference to the debate, and the statement he made about the motives of the House, might be found incorrect; that the President may have attributed to the majority motives they were not willing to avow. The motives had been avowed by the gentleman who led the business from Pennsylvania.
Mr. Harper was called to order. He concluded by declaring that he would vote against the reference.
Mr. Varnum observed, that a great constitutional question was to be decided; two branches of the Government differed, and they had joined issue. The President had given the reasons of his opinion; it was right, also, that the people should know the sense of the House. Shall the House take no further measures on the subject, and receive the answer of the President as obligatory with regard to the question? He believed every member of the House has, as well as the President, the right to avow his principles, and to judge of the import of the different parts of the constitution. The House he conceived under an obligation to consider the question: if they found, upon consideration, reason to recede from their opinions, he hoped they would. He wished the subject examined with temper and candor.
Mr. Kittera chiefly dwelt on the length of time, which, if the motion was agreed to, would be consumed in the business. He also touched on the impropriety of entering into a disquisition on the merits of this question on the journals.
Mr. Crabb.—Mr. Speaker, I hope the Message received from the President, in answer to the resolution of this House, calling for certain papers relative to the British Treaty, will be referred to a Committee of the whole House. My reasons for this wish are, because the President has refused the papers on constitutional principles, and has thought proper to go into a detail of the reasons which led to a formation of his opinion; therefore I apprehend it proper to make the reference, in order, that if the reasons urged by the President are such as to convince this House that he is right as to the constitutional question, that they may have an opportunity to acknowledge it, that it may be so known and understood abroad, inasmuch as the contrary opinion has been promulgated; and again, I wish the reference, that this House may, with respect and calm deliberation, consider the President's Message, and the reasons on which his refusal to send the papers is grounded, that if those reasons are not such as to convince or change the opinion of this House, they, in that case, may have an opportunity so to express themselves, and to introduce resolutions to that effect, that the opinion of this House, on this great constitutional question, after the receipt and consideration of the President's Message, may be fully known, clearly understood, and stamped on your journals. I think this a necessary measure, inasmuch as sundry Treaties lately negotiated are now before this House, and by a declaratory resolution, as before stated, this House may save the constitutional principle, and feel themselves at perfect liberty to pass the necessary laws to carry these Treaties into complete effect, without conveying the implication, that they think they are bound so to do, and have not a constitutional right to reject and refuse, when even they shall judge the general prosperity of the Union, and the interest of their constituents, may be promoted by that refusal.
Mr. Giles said, he had not expected the subject would have been treated with ridicule, and that members in reply should advise others to go and write pamphlets. The motives of a branch of Government must necessarily differ from the motives of individuals expressed in their speeches. A majority of the House, when their sentiments are collected, speak the sense of the House. He adverted to the practice of the House when the President returns a bill, which had been mentioned by the opposers of the motion, and observed, that in cases of that kind the message of the President was acted upon. He observed on the importance of the subject, and insisted on the propriety of the House expressing their reasons for their vote. They owe it to themselves, to the United States, to the whole world, to exhibit their reasons for what the President has declared to be an unconstitutional call. For this purpose, the Message should be referred to a Committee of the Whole, where a proper motion would be brought forward, and could be freely discussed. If it had been proposed to refer the Message to a select committee, to place the business into a few hands, there might have been an objection, but a reference to a Committee of the Whole he considered quite unexceptionable.
Mr. N. Smith said the present was a most singular motion; and, after noticing the several reasons which had been given for the measure, thought none of them had any weight. He said the referring of the Message could only have one effect; it would engage three weeks more of their time; and yet, gentlemen who had been very economical with respect to time, on the late great constitutional point, by calling for the question from day to day, now proposed to consume it in the way proposed. He should, however, now show that economy on account of time, which had been so much insisted upon on a former occasion.
The yeas and nays were now taken on the question of a reference of the President's Message to a Committee of the Whole; and the motion was agreed to—yeas 55, nays 37.