Thursday, December 31.
Richard Winn, from South Carolina, appeared, was qualified, and took his seat.
Case of Randall and Whitney.
Mr. Baldwin, the chairman of the Committee of Privileges, reported, in part, on the subject of the further proceedings to be had in the case of R. Randall and C. Whitney, in substance as follows:
1. That a further hearing of R. Randall should be held at the bar; that the information given by members against the said Randall be reduced to writing, signed by the informants respectively, and entered at large on the journals; that the said information should be read to the prisoner, and he be asked by the Speaker what he had to say in his defence. If the prisoner should desire to produce any parole evidence to exculpate himself, the same shall be heard at the bar, and the Judge of the District of Pennsylvania be requested to attend to administer an oath or affirmation to the witnesses on the part of the prisoner; that the Speaker shall put all questions to the witnesses. When any debate should arise, that the prisoner and his counsel be directed to withdraw; and, when he has concluded his defence and withdrawn, that the sense of the House be taken on the guilt or innocence of the prisoners, respectively.
Mr. Madison was of opinion that no citizen can be punished without the solemnity of an oath to the fact. Of consequence, it is needful to the information of members, if the punishment of a fellow-citizen is implicated. Perhaps it may be urged that members, having taken an oath to support the constitution, this supersedes the necessity of an oath in the present case.
Mr. Gallatin thought it reasonable that members should be liable to be questioned upon oath. That there was no precedent for it, had little weight. There are many absurdities in the law of nations which gentlemen would not wish to introduce here.
Mr. Swift was against the members being subject to this regulation. The case was quite novel to him. But this was, at first view, his way of thinking. Suppose that some person in the gallery were to commit an insult on the House, before the whole members, would it be necessary that they should all swear to the offence before proceeding to punish it? This Mr. S. regarded as a parallel case.
Mr. Thatcher made a distinction when an offence had been committed in presence of the whole House, and when committed out of their view. In the former case, there could not be any use for evidence being sworn, because the whole House had the testimony of their senses. It was different when the circumstances occurred in another place; and Mr. T. was convinced that the charge ought to be sworn to. The passage under amendment was in these words: "That it should be reduced to writing;" and the dispute was about adding the words, "and sworn to." Mr. T., though for examining the members on oath as to the charge against Randall, was opposed to the amendment as useless, because the members must, in his opinion, be sworn when Randall is brought to the bar. The mere declaration of a prosecutor, not under oath, and of a defendant in the same situation, is equally exceptionable. A phrase had been repeatedly used which Mr. T. did not understand. It was said that a member was entitled "to stand up in his place" and give information so and so. With the meaning of this expression Mr. T. was unacquainted, nor did he know any law which authorized the imprisonment of a fellow-citizen on a mere charge unsupported by oath. He did not see the use of the amendment, but he was clearly satisfied that members ought to be examined and sworn touching their accusations, as well as any other persons.
Mr. Nicholas was not, in this instance, for departing from the principles of common law. Instead of supporting the dignity of the House, about which so much has been spoken, he was afraid that, by arrogating too much on the side of privilege, they might lessen their dignity. He declared, upon his honor, that he thought the gentlemen concerned should, for their own sakes, insist on being cross-examined by the prisoner and his counsel. To be cross-examined implies no reflection on a witness. The imperfection of human nature requires such a precaution, and were Mr. N. a party, he would insist on being cross-examined. The proposed amendment would narrow the business too much. It would be better to lay it aside, and let the members be, as above proposed, subject to cross-examination from the prisoner.
Mr. Madison said, that when Randall came to the bar he would possibly save all this trouble, by confessing his guilt, and casting himself on the mercy of the House. He mentioned an anecdote of a judge who had been publicly insulted. He informed his brethren of the bench, and, on his complaint, the offender was apprehended. When he was brought before the court the oath was administered to the judge. Mr. M. related this story to show the propriety of every accusation being sworn to, whatever may be the rank or situation of the accuser.