Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 1 (of 16)

by United States. Congress

Thursday, February 11.

Assumption of State Debts.

[Mr. Madison's motion to discriminate between original creditors and present holders, so as to pay claims in full to the former, and the highest market price to the assignee, and the remainder to the original creditor.]

The House then again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole upon the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Baldwin in the chair.

Mr. Burke's amendment being under consideration,

Mr. Burke said, he had brought his motion forward, in consequence of a hasty promise he had given a member of this House; but as he did not mean to support it, or vote for it, he would withdraw it.

Mr. Madison.—No gentleman, Mr. Chairman, has expressed more strongly than I feel, the importance and difficulty of the subject before us. Although I have endeavored to view it under all its aspects, and analyze it in all its principles, yet have I kept my mind open, and been anxious to aid my own reflections by the reflected light to be expected from gentlemen on this floor who enter into the discussion. For this purpose, I have chosen hitherto rather to be a hearer than a speaker on the subject, and should even at this moment have continued in my seat, but that the turn which the business has taken, renders it requisite for me now, if at all, to trouble the committee with my reflections, and the opinion in which they have terminated.

It has been said, by some gentlemen, that the debt itself does not exist in the extent and form which is generally supposed. I confess, sir, I differ altogether from the gentleman who takes that ground. Let us consider, first, by whom the debt was contracted, and then let us consider to whom it is due. The debt was contracted by the United States, who, with respect to that particular transaction, were in a national capacity. The Government was nothing more than the agent or organ, by which the whole body of the people acted. The change in the Government which has taken place has enlarged its national capacity, but it has not varied the national obligation, with respect to the engagements entered into by that transaction. For, in like manner, the present Government is nothing more than the organ, or agent, of the public. The obligation which they are under, is precisely the same with that under which the debt was contracted; although the Government has been changed, the nation remains the same. There is no change in our political duty, nor in the moral or political obligation. The language I now use, sir, is the language of the constitution itself; it declares that all debts shall have the same validity against the United States, under the new, as under the old form of Government. The obligation remains the same, though I hope experience will prove that the ability has been favorably varied.

The next question is, to what amount the public are at present indebted? I conceive the question may be answered in a few words. The United States owe the value they received, which they acknowledge, and which they have promised to pay: what is that value? It is a certain sum in principal, bearing an interest of six per cent. No logic, no magic, in my opinion, can diminish the force of the obligation.

The only point on which we can deliberate is, to whom the payment is really due; for this purpose, it will be proper to take notice of the several descriptions of people who are creditors of the Union, and lay down some principles respecting them, which may lead us to a just and equitable decision. As there is a small part of the debt yet unliquidated, it may be well to pass it by and come to the great mass of the liquidated debt. It may here be proper to notice four classes into which it may be divided:

First, Original creditors, who have never alienated their securities.

Second, Original creditors who have alienated.

Third, Present holders of alienated securities.

Fourth, Intermediate holders, through whose hands securities have circulated.

The only principles that can govern the decision on their respective pretensions, I take to be, 1. Public Justice; 2. Public Faith; 3. Public Credit; 4. Public Opinion.

With respect to the first class, there can be no difficulty. Justice is in their favor, for they have advanced the value which they claim; public faith is in their favor, for the written promise is in their hands; respect for public credit is in their favor, for if claims so sacred are violated, all confidence must be at an end; public opinion is in their favor, for every honest citizen cannot but be their advocate.

With respect to the last class, the intermediate holders, their pretensions, if they have any, will lead us into a labyrinth, for which it is impossible to find a clew. This will be the less complained of, because this class were perfectly free, both in becoming and ceasing to be creditors; and because, in general, they must have gained by their speculations.

The only rival pretensions, then, are those of the original creditors, who have assigned, and of the present holders of the assignments.

The former may appeal to justice, because the value of the money, the service, or the property advanced by them, has never been really paid to them.

They may appeal to good faith, because the value stipulated and expected, is not satisfied by the steps taken by the Government. The certificates put into the hands of the creditors, on closing their settlements with the public, were of less real value than was acknowledged to be due; they may be considered as having been forced, in fact, on the receivers. They cannot, therefore, be fairly adjudged an extinguishment of the debt. They may appeal to the motives for establishing public credit, for which justice and faith form the natural foundation. They may appeal to the precedent furnished by the compensation allowed to the army during the late war, for the depreciation of bills, which nominally discharged the debts. They may appeal to humanity, for the sufferings of the military part of the creditors can never be forgotten, while sympathy is an American virtue. To say nothing of the singular hardship, in so many months, of requiring those who have lost four-fifths, or seven-eighths of their due, to contribute the remainder in favor of those who have gained in the contrary proportion.

On the other hand, the holders by assignment have claims, which I by no means wish to depreciate. They will say, that whatever pretensions others may have against the public, these cannot affect the validity of theirs. That if they gain by the risk taken upon themselves, it is but the just reward of that risk. That as they hold the public promise, they have an undeniable demand on the public faith. That the best foundation of public credit is that adherence to literal engagements on which it has been erected by the most flourishing nations. That if the new Government should swerve from so essential a principle, it will be regarded by all the world as inheriting the infirmities of the old. Such being the interfering claims on the public, one of three things must be done; either pay both, reject wholly one or the other, or make a composition between them on some principle of equity. To pay both is perhaps beyond the public ability; and as it would far exceed the value received by the public, it will not be expected by the world, nor even by the creditors themselves. To reject wholly the claims of either is equally inadmissible; such a sacrifice of those who possess the written engagements would be fatal to the proposed establishment of public credit; it would moreover punish those who had put their trust in the public promises and resources. To make the other class the sole victims is an idea at which human nature recoils.

A composition, then, is the only expedient that remains; let it be a liberal one in favor of the present holders, let them have the highest price which has prevailed in the market; and let the residue belong to the original sufferers. This will not do perfect justice; but it will do more real justice, and perform more of the public faith, than any other expedient proposed. The present holders, where they have purchased at the lowest price of the securities, will have a profit that cannot reasonably be complained of; where they have purchased at a higher price, the profit will be considerable; and even the few who have purchased at the highest price cannot well be losers, with a well funded interest of six per cent. The original sufferers will not be fully indemnified; but they will receive, from their country, a tribute due to their merits, which, if it does not entirely heal their wounds, will assuage the pain of them. I am aware, that many plausible objections will lie against what I have suggested, some of which I foresee and will take some notice of. It will be said, that the plan is impracticable; should this be demonstrated, I am ready to renounce it; but it does not appear to me in that light. I acknowledge that such a scale as has often been a subject of conversation, is impracticable.

The discrimination proposed by me, requires nothing more than a knowledge of the present holders, which will be shown by the certificates; and of the original holders, which the office documents will show. It may be objected, that if the Government is to go beyond the literal, into the equitable claims against the United States, it ought to go back to every case where injustice has been done. To this the answer is obvious: the case in question is not only different from others in point of magnitude and of practicability, but forces itself on the attention of the committee, as necessarily involved in the business before them. It may be objected, that public credit will suffer, especially abroad; I think this danger will be effectually obviated by the honesty and disinterestedness of the Government displayed in the measure, by a continuance of the punctual discharge of foreign interest, by the full provision to be made for the whole foreign debt, and the equal punctuality I hope to see in the future payments on the domestic debts. I trust also, that all future loans will be founded on a previous establishment of adequate funds; and that a situation, like the present, will be thereby rendered impossible.

I cannot but regard the present case as so extraordinary, in many respects, that the ordinary maxims are not strictly applicable to it. The fluctuations of stock in Europe, so often referred to, have no comparison with those in the United States. The former never exceeded 50, 60, or 70 per cent.: can it be said, that because a Government thought this evil insufficient to justify an interference, it would view in the same light a fluctuation amounting to seven or eight hundred per cent.

I am of opinion, that were Great Britain, Holland, or any other country, to fund its debts precisely in the same situation as the American debt, some equitable interference of the Government would take place. The South Sea scheme, in which a change, amounting to one thousand per cent. happened in the value of stock, is well known to have produced an interference, and without any injury whatever to the subsequent credit of the nation. It is true, that in many respects, the case differed from that of the United States; but, in other respects, there is a degree of similitude, which warrants the conjecture. It may be objected, that such a provision as I propose will exceed the public ability; I do not think the public unable to discharge honorably all its engagements, or that it will be unwilling, if the appropriations shall be satisfactory. I regret, as much as any member, the unavoidable weight and duration of the burthens to be imposed; having never been a proselyte to the doctrine, that public debts are public benefits. I consider them, on the contrary, as evils which ought to be removed as fast as honor and justice will permit, and shall heartily join in the means necessary for that purpose. I conclude with declaring, as my opinion, that if any case were to happen among individuals, bearing an analogy to that of the public, a Court of Equity would interpose for its redress; or that if a tribunal existed on earth, by which nations could be compelled to do right, the United States would be compelled to do something not dissimilar in its principles to what I have contended for.

Mr. Livermore wished the amendment he had formerly mentioned might be made to the original proposition; it was, to insert, before the word "interest," the words, "at a certain rate o."

Mr. Sherman apprehended it would strongly imply that Congress meant to reduce the rate of interest, and he did not wish that question involved with the present.

Mr. Livermore's motion being seconded, the question was put thereon, and it being lost,

Mr. Madison moved to amend the original proposition, so as to read as follows:

Resolved, That adequate funds ought to be provided for paying the interest and principal of the domestic debt, as the same shall be liquidated; and that in such liquidation, the present holders of public securities, which have been alienated, shall be settled with according to the highest market rate of such securities; and that the balance of the sums due from the public, be paid in such proportion to the original holder of such securities.

Mr. Boudinot said, he had long been in the habit of paying great respect to the sentiments of the gentleman from Virginia; but he feared, on this occasion, he had not viewed the subject with his usual accuracy. He was not surprised that the gentleman was led away by the dictates of his heart, for he believed he really felt for the misfortunes of his fellow-citizens, who had been the prey of avaricious men. Indeed, it is matter of less surprise, on another account, for heretofore I contemplated the subject in nearly the same point of view. Influenced by a desire to do justice to every person connected with the public, I wished for the means of compensating the original holders, who had sold their certificates at a great loss; but I found the thing, upon long and careful examination, to be both unjust and impracticable.

The honorable gentleman tells us, that the debt was contracted for meritorious services, and inquires whether the creditor received an adequate compensation in full discharge? I say, sir, this debt is still due, and that the person to whom it is due, has received nothing but a certificate as evidence of his claim; but then, if any of our first creditors have put another person in their shoes, the question will arise, are we to disown the act of the party himself? Are we to say, we will not be bound by your transfer, we will not treat with your representative, but insist upon a resettlement with you alone? But the same reasoning will oblige us to go further, and investigate all the claims of those who have received of the Government Continental money, which they afterwards parted with for ten, forty, or one hundred for one.

Friday, February 12.

Abolition of Slavery.

The following memorial of the Pennsylvania Society for promoting the Abolition of Slavery, the relief of free negroes unlawfully held in bondage, and the improvement of the condition of the African race, was presented and read:

The memorial respectfully showeth,

That from a regard for the happiness of mankind, an association was formed several years since in this State, by a number of her citizens, of various religious denominations, for promoting the abolition of slavery, and for the relief of those unlawfully held in bondage. A just and acute conception of the true principles of liberty, as it spread through the land, produced accessions to their numbers, many friends to their cause, and a Legislative co-operation with their views, which, by the blessing of Divine Providence, have been successfully directed to the relieving from bondage a large number of their fellow-creatures of the African race. They have also the satisfaction to observe, that in consequence of that spirit of philanthropy and genuine liberty which is generally diffusing its beneficial influence, similar institutions are forming at home and abroad.

That mankind are all formed by the same Almighty Being, alike objects of his care, and equally designed for the enjoyment of happiness, the Christian religion teaches us to believe, and the political creed of Americans fully coincides with the position. Your memorialists, particularly engaged in attending to the distresses arising from slavery, believe it their indispensable duty to present this subject to your notice. They have observed, with real satisfaction, that many important and salutary powers are vested in you for "promoting the welfare and securing the blessings of liberty to the people of the United States;" and as they conceive that these blessings ought rightfully to be administered, without distinction of color, to all descriptions of people, so they indulge themselves in the pleasing expectation, that nothing which can be done for the relief of the unhappy objects of their care will be either omitted or delayed.

From a persuasion that equal liberty was originally the portion, and is still the birthright of all men; and influenced by the strong ties of humanity, and the principles of their institution, your memorialists conceive themselves bound to use all justifiable endeavors to loosen the bands of slavery, and promote a general enjoyment of the blessings of freedom. Under these impressions, they earnestly entreat your serious attention to the subject of slavery; that you will be pleased to countenance the restoration of liberty to those unhappy men, who alone, in this land of freedom, are degraded into perpetual bondage, and who, amidst the general joy of surrounding freemen, are groaning in servile subjection; that you will devise means for removing this inconsistency from the character of the American people; that you will promote mercy and justice towards this distressed race, and that you will step to the very verge of the power vested in you for discouraging every species of traffic in the persons of our fellow-men.

BENJ. FRANKLIN, President.

Philadelphia, February 3, 1790.

Mr. Hartley then called up the memorial presented yesterday, from the annual meeting of Friends at Philadelphia, for a second reading; whereupon the same was read a second time, and moved to be committed.

Mr. Tucker was sorry the petition had a second reading, as he conceived it contained an unconstitutional request, and from that consideration he wished it thrown aside. He feared the commitment of it would be a very alarming circumstance to the Southern States; for if the object was to engage Congress in an unconstitutional measure, it would be considered as an interference with their rights, the people would become very uneasy under the Government, and lament that they ever put additional powers into their hands. He was surprised to see another memorial on the same subject; and that signed by a man who ought to have known the constitution better. He thought it a mischievous attempt, as it respected the persons in whose favor it was intended. It would buoy them up with hopes, without a foundation, and as they could not reason on the subject, as more enlightened men would, they might be led to do what they would be punished for, and the owners of them, in their own defence, would be compelled to exercise over them a severity they were not accustomed to. Do these men expect a general emancipation of slaves by law? This would never be submitted to by the Southern States without a civil war. Do they mean to purchase their freedom? He believed their money would fall short of the price. But how is it they are more concerned in this business than others? Are they the only persons who possess religion and morality? If the people are not so exemplary, certainly they will admit the clergy are; why, then, do we not find them uniting in a body, praying us to adopt measures for the promotion of religion and piety, or any moral object? They know it would be an improper interference; and to say the best of this memorial, it is an act of imprudence, which he hoped would receive no countenance from the House.

Mr. Seney denied that there was any thing unconstitutional in the memorial; at least, if there was it had escaped his attention, and he should be obliged to the gentleman to point it out. Its only object was, that Congress should exercise their constitutional authority to abate the horrors of slavery, as far as they could; indeed, he considered that all altercation on the subject of commitment was at an end, as the House had impliedly determined yesterday that it should be committed.

Mr. Burke saw the disposition of the House, and he feared it would be referred to a committee, maugre all their opposition; but he must insist, that it prayed for an unconstitutional measure; did it not desire Congress to interfere and abolish the slave trade, while the constitution expressly stipulates that Congress shall exercise no such power? He was certain the commitment would sound an alarm, and blow the trumpet of sedition in the Southern States. He was sorry to see the petitioners paid more attention to than the constitution; however, he would do his duty and oppose the business totally; and if it was referred to a committee, as mentioned yesterday, consisting of a member from each State, and he was appointed, he would decline serving.

Mr. Scott.—I cannot entertain a doubt but the memorial is strictly agreeable to the constitution; it respects a part of the duty particularly assigned to us by that instrument, and I hope we may be inclined to take it into consideration. We can at present lay our hands upon a small duty of ten dollars; I would take this, and if it is all that we can do, we must be content: but I am sorry that the framers of the constitution did not go further, and enable us to interdict the traffic entirely; for I look upon the slave trade to be one of the most abominable things on earth; and if there was neither God nor devil, I should oppose it upon the principles of humanity, and the law of nature. I cannot, for my part, conceive how any person can be said to acquire a property in another; is it by virtue of conquest? What are the rights of conquest? Some have dared to advance this monstrous principle, that the conqueror is absolute master of his conquest; that he may dispose of it as his property, and treat it as he pleases; but, enough of those who reduce men to the state of transferable goods, or use them like beasts of burthen, who deliver them up as property or patrimony to others. Let us argue on principles countenanced by reason and becoming humanity; the petitioners view the subject in a religious light, but I do not stand in need of religious motives to induce me to reprobate the traffic in human flesh; other considerations weigh with me to support the commitment of the memorial, and to support every constitutional measure likely to bring about its total abolition. Perhaps, in our Legislative capacity, we can go no further than to impose a duty of ten dollars; but I do not know how far I might go, if I was one of the Judges of the United States, and those people were to come before me and claim their emancipation; but I am sure I would go as far as I could.

Mr. Jackson differed with the gentleman last up, and supposed the master had a qualified property in his slave. He said the contrary doctrine would go to the destruction of every species of personal service. The gentleman said, he did not stand in need of religion to induce him to reprobate slavery, but if he is guided by that evidence upon which the Christian system is founded, he will find that religion is not against it. He will see, from Genesis to Revelations, the current setting strong that way. There never was a Government on the face of the earth, but what permitted slavery. The purest sons of freedom in the Grecian Republics, the citizens of Athens and Lacedæmon, all held slaves. On this principle the nations of Europe are associated; it is the basis of the feudal system. But suppose all this to have been wrong, let me ask the gentleman if it is good policy to bring forward a business at this moment, likely to light up the flame of civil discord; for the people of the Southern States will resist one tyranny as soon as another? The other parts of the continent may bear them down by force of arms, but they will never suffer themselves to be divested of their property without a struggle. The gentleman says, if he was a Federal Judge, he does not know to what length he would go in emancipating these people; but I believe his judgment would be of short duration in Georgia, perhaps even the existence of such a judge might be in danger.

Mr. Sherman could see no difficulty in committing the memorial; because it was probable the committee would understand their business, and perhaps they might bring in such a report as would be satisfactory to gentlemen on both sides of the House.

Mr. Baldwin was sorry the subject had ever been brought before Congress, because it was of a delicate nature as it respected some of the States. Gentlemen who had been present at the formation of this constitution could not avoid the recollection of the pain and difficulty which the subject caused in that body. The members from the Southern States were so tender upon this point, that they had well-nigh broken up without coming to any determination; however, from the extreme desire of preserving the Union, and obtaining an efficient Government, they were induced mutually to concede, and the constitution jealously guarded what they agreed to. If gentlemen look over the footsteps of that body, they will find the greatest degree of caution used to imprint them, so as not to be easily eradicated; but the moment we go to jostle on that ground, I fear we shall feel it tremble under our feet. Congress have no power to interfere with the importation of slaves beyond what is given in the ninth section of the first article of the constitution; every thing else is interdicted to them in the strongest terms. If we examine the constitution, we shall find the expressions relative to this subject cautiously expressed, and more punctiliously guarded than any other part, "The migration or importation of such persons shall not be prohibited by Congress." But lest this should not have secured the object sufficiently, it is declared, in the same section, "That no capitation or direct tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census;" this was intended to prevent Congress from laying any special tax upon negro slaves, as they might, in this way, so burthen the possessors of them as to induce a general emancipation. If we go on to the fifth article, we shall find the first and fifth clauses of the ninth section of the first article restrained from being altered before the year 1808.

Gentlemen have said that this petition does not pray for an abolition of the slave trade. I think, sir, it prays for nothing else; and therefore we have no more to do with it than if it prayed us to establish an order of nobility, or a national religion.

Mr. Sylvester said, that he had always been in the habit of respecting the Society called Quakers; he respected them for their exertions in the cause of humanity; but he thought the present was not a time to enter into a consideration of the subject, especially as he conceived it to be a business within the province of the State Legislatures.

Mr. Lawrence observed, that the subject would undoubtedly come under the consideration of the House; and he thought, as it was now before them, that the present time was as proper as any; he was therefore for committing the memorial, and when the prayer of it had been properly examined, they could see how far Congress may, constitutionally, interfere: as they knew the limits of their power on this, as well as every other occasion, there was no just apprehension to be entertained that they would go beyond it.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) insisted that it was not in the power of the House to grant the prayer of the petition, which went to the total abolishment of the slave trade, and it was therefore unnecessary to commit it. He observed, that in the Southern States difficulties had arisen on adopting the constitution, inasmuch as it was apprehended that Congress might take measures under it for abolishing the slave trade.

Perhaps the petitioners, when they applied to this House, did not think their object unconstitutional, but now they are told that it is, they will be satisfied with the answer, and press it no further. If their object had been for Congress to lay a duty of ten dollars per head on the importation of slaves, they would have said so, but that does not appear to have been the case. The commitment of the petition, on that ground, cannot be contended. If they will not be content with that, shall it be committed to investigate facts? The petition speaks of none. For what purpose, then, shall it be committed? If gentlemen can assign no good reason for the measure, they will not support it when they are told that it will create jealousies and alarm in the Southern States; for I can assure them that there is no point on which they are more jealous and suspicious, than on a business with which they think the Government has nothing to do.

When we entered into this confederacy, we did it from political, not from moral motives, and I do not think my constituents want to learn morals from the petitioners; I do not believe they want improvements in their moral system; if they do, they can get it at home.

The gentleman from Georgia has justly stated the jealousy of the Southern States. On entering into this Government, they apprehend that the other States, not knowing the necessity the citizens of the Southern States were under to hold this species of property, would, from motives of humanity and benevolence, be led to vote for a general emancipation; and had they not seen that the constitution provided against the effect of such a disposition, I may be bold to say they never would have adopted it. And, notwithstanding all the calmness with which some gentlemen have viewed the subject, they will find that this discussion alone will create great alarm. We have been told, that if this would be the case, we ought to have avoided it, by saying nothing; but it was not for that purpose that we were sent here. We look upon this measure as an attack upon the palladium of the property of our country; it is therefore our duty to oppose it by every means in our power. Gentlemen should consider, that when we entered into a political connection with the other States, that this property was there; it was acquired under a former Government, conformably to the laws and constitution, therefore any thing that will tend to deprive them of that property, must be an ex post facto law, and, as such, is forbidden by our political compact.

I said the States would never have entered into the Confederation, unless their property had been guarantied to them, for such is the state of agriculture in that country, that without slaves it must be abandoned. Why will these people, then, make use of arguments to induce the slave to turn his hand against his master? We labor under difficulties enough from the ravages of the late war. A gentleman can hardly come from that country with a servant or two, either to this place or Philadelphia, but there are persons trying to seduce his servants to leave him; and, when they have done this, the poor wretches are obliged to rob their master, in order to obtain a subsistence; all those, therefore, who are concerned in this seduction, are accessories to the robbery.

The reproaches which they cast upon the owners of negro property, is charging them with the want of humanity. I believe the proprietors have as much humanity as persons in any part of the continent, and are as conspicuous for their good morals as their neighbors. It was said yesterday that the Quakers are a society known to the laws and the constitution, but they are no more so than other religious societies; they stand exactly in the same situation; their memorial, therefore, relates to a matter in which they are no more interested than any other sect, and can only be considered as a piece of advice, which it is not customary to refer to a committee; but if it is supposed to pray for what they think a moral purpose, is that sufficient to induce us to commit it? What may appear a moral virtue in their eyes, may not be so in reality. I have heard of a sect of Shaking Quakers, who, I presume, suppose their tenets of a moral tendency. I am informed one of them forbids to intermarry, yet you may see them with a numerous offspring about them. Now, if these people were to petition Congress to pass a law prohibiting matrimony, would gentlemen agree to refer such a petition? I think if they would reject one of that nature, as improper, they ought also to reject this.

Mr. Page was in favor of the commitment. He hoped that the designs of the respectable memoralists would not be stopped at the threshold, in order to preclude a fair discussion of the prayer of the memorial. He observed, that gentlemen had founded their arguments upon a misrepresentation; for the object of the memorial is not declared to be the total abolition of the slave trade, but that Congress will consider whether it be not in reality within their power to exercise justice and mercy, which, if adhered to, they cannot doubt must produce the abolition of the slave trade. If, then, the prayer contained nothing unconstitutional, he trusted the meritorious effort of the petitioners would not be frustrated.

With respect to the alarm that was apprehended, he conjectured there was none; but there might be just cause if the memorial was not taken into consideration. He placed himself in the case of a slave, and said, that, on hearing that Congress had refused to listen to the decent suggestions of a respectable part of the community, he should infer that the General Government (from which was expected great good would result to every class of citizens) had shut their ears against the voice of humanity, and he should despair of any alleviation of the miseries he and his posterity had in prospect; if any thing could induce him to rebel, it must be a stroke like this, impressing on his mind all the horrors of despair. But if he was told that application was made in his behalf, and that Congress was willing to hear what could be urged in favor of discouraging the practice of importing his fellow-wretches, he would trust in their justice and humanity, and wait the decision patiently. He presumed that these unfortunate people would reason in the same way, and he, therefore, conceived the most likely way to prevent danger was to commit the petition. He lived in a State which had the misfortune of having in her bosom a great number of slaves; he held many of them himself, and was as much interested in the business, as any gentleman in South Carolina or Georgia, yet if he was determined to hold them in eternal bondage, he should feel no uneasiness or alarm on account of the present measure, because he should rely upon the virtue of Congress that they would not exercise any unconstitutional authority.

Mr. Madison.—The debate has taken a serious turn, and it will be owing to this alone if an alarm is created; for, had the memorial been treated in the usual way, it would have been considered as a matter of course, and a report might have been made so as to have given general satisfaction. If there was the slightest tendency by the commitment to break in upon the constitution, he would object to it; but he did not see upon what ground such an event was to be apprehended. The petition prayed, in general terms, for the interference of Congress, so far as they were constitutionally authorized: but even if its prayer was, in some degree, unconstitutional, it might be committed, as was the case on Mr. Churchman's petition, one part of which was supposed to apply for an unconstitutional interference by the General Government. He admitted, that Congress is restricted by the constitution from taking measures to abolish the slave trade; yet there are a variety of ways by which it could countenance the abolition, and regulations might be made in relation to the introduction of them into the new States to be formed out of the Western Territory. He thought the object well worthy of consideration.

Mr. Gerry thought the interference of Congress fully compatible with the constitution, and could not help lamenting the miseries to which the natives of Africa were exposed by this inhuman commerce. He never contemplated the subject, without reflecting what his own feelings would be, in case himself, his children, or friends were placed in the same deplorable circumstances. He then adverted to the flagrant acts of cruelty which are committed in carrying on that traffic; and asked, whether it can be supposed that Congress has no power to prevent such abuses? He then referred to the constitution, and pointed out the restrictions laid on the General Government respecting the importation of slaves. It was not, he presumed, in the contemplation of any gentleman in this House to violate that part of the constitution; but that we have a right to regulate this business, is as clear as that we have any rights whatever; nor has the contrary been shown by any person who has spoken on the occasion. Congress can, agreeably to the constitution, lay a duty of ten dollars on imported slaves; they may do this immediately. He made a calculation of the value of the slaves in the Southern States, and supposed they may be worth ten millions of dollars. Congress have a right, if they see proper, to make a proposal to the Southern States to purchase the whole of them, and their resources in the Western Territory might furnish them with the means. He did not intend to suggest a measure of this kind; he only instanced these particulars to show that Congress certainly has a right to intermeddle in the business. He thought that no objection had been offered of any force to prevent the commitment of the memorial.

Mr. Boudinot had carefully examined the petition and found nothing like what was complained of by gentlemen contained in it; he, therefore, hoped they would withdraw their opposition and suffer it to be committed.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) said, that as the petitioners had particularly prayed Congress to take measures for the annihilation of the slave trade; and as that was admitted, on all hands, to be beyond their power, and as the petitioners would not be gratified by a tax of ten dollars per head, which was all that was within their power, there was, of consequence, no occasion for committing it.

The question on the commitment being about to be put, the yeas and nays were called for, and were as follows:

Yeas.—Messrs. Ames, Benson, Boudinot, Brown, Cadwalader, Clymer, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Foster, Gale, Gerry, Gilman, Goodhue, Griffin, Grout, Hartley, Hathorn, Heister, Huntington, Lawrence, Lee, Leonard, Livermore, Madison, Moore, Muhlenberg, Page, Parker, Partridge, Rensselaer, Schureman, Scott, Sedgwick, Seney, Sherman, Sinnickson, Smith, (of Maryland,) Sturges, Thatcher, Trumbull, Wadsworth, White, and Wynkoop—43.

Nays.—Messrs. Baldwin, Bland, Burke, Coles, Huger, Jackson, Matthews, Sylvester, Smith, (of South Carolina,) Stone, and Tucker—14.

The memorials were referred accordingly.

Monday, February 15.

Public Credit.

The House went again into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Baldwin in the chair.

Mr. Madison's motion for a discrimination being under consideration,

Mr. Sedgwick.—The proposition, Mr. Chairman, contains a question of the utmost importance. And the committee must be obliged to the gentleman who brought it forward for his very ingenious discussion of the subject of the domestic debt. With respect to the question now before the committee, so much has been said, that I think it will not be necessary to consume much of their time in the investigation. On the subject of contracts I have to observe, that whenever a voluntary engagement is made for a valuable consideration for property advanced or services rendered, and the terms of the contract are understood, if no fraud or imposition is practised, the party engaging is bound to the performance, according to the literal meaning of the words in which it is expressed. Such contract, whether of a Government or an individual, may be either transferable or not transferable. The latter species of contract receives an additional value from its capacity of being transferred, if the circumstances of the possessor should render a sale of it necessary or convenient to him. To render the transferable quality of such evidences of contract in any degree advantageous to the possessor, it is necessary to consider, in case of sale, the alienee possessed of all the property of the original holder; and indeed it is highly absurd, and even contradictory, to say, that such evidences of debt are transferable, and at the same time to say that there is in them a kind of property that the holder could not convey by bona fide contract.

This is the construction which has invariably been given to these contracts, whether formed by Government or by individuals. To deprive the citizen of the power of binding himself by his own voluntary contract, or to prevent a disposition of property in its nature alienable, would be a violent and unjustifiable invasion of one of those rights of which man, as a citizen, is the most tenacious, and would indeed break one of the strongest bonds by which society is holden together.

In the transfers which have been made, the contracts were fairly made; the whole rights have been transferred. It is not pretended any fraud or imposition has been practised. The risk was calculated by the parties, and it was observed, that the risk contemplated a revolution in the Government.

From the foregoing deduction of particulars, it is presumed to be proved that a property is vested in the transferees. That if this property is divested by the Government, the law for that purpose would have a retrospective operation, and that no ex post facto law could be more alarming than that by which the right of private property is violently invaded.

Having considered the nature of the contract, and of the obligations which result from it, I beg leave to call the attention of the committee to those circumstances by which that obligation may be destroyed, impaired, or suspended. They are stated to be, 1. Performance. 2. Voluntary discharge. 3. Composition. 4. Inability.

And gentlemen are called upon to give information of any other causes which can produce either of those effects.

With regard, more particularly, to the proposition before the committee, I have, to observe, that with regard to these contracts, there has existed a depreciation in consequence of the failure of Government regularly to pay the interest. That in this depreciated state, the securities have been alienated; that of course the original holders have sustained a loss; that if the loss resulted from the fault, and not the misfortune of Government, the creditors have, undeniably, a demand against the Government for compensation; that this demand, however well founded, can never authorize the Government to invade the honestly acquired property of the present possessors, a property warranted by the terms of the contract itself, and sanctioned by the act of Congress, of April, 1783, and the validity of it recognized by the constitution we have sworn to support.

With regard to the claims of the original holders, it is, however, observable, that the domestic creditor, at the time the contract was formed, well knew the nature of the constitution of the Government administered by Congress, the other contracting party; that its power of performance depended on the ability and good-will of the States; that Congress had always performed its duty, had made the necessary requisitions; that this was its utmost power; and that the failure had arisen wholly from the neglect of the States. I therefore submit it to the committee, whether, if the original holder has a just or equitable demand, he should not resort to the State of which he is a member?

I admit, that the case of an original holder is indeed a hard one; that I have a respect for his misfortunes and for his pretensions; that if satisfaction is discovered to be just and practicable, I would not hesitate to go to the utmost ability of the Government for that purpose. But let me ask, what merit will the Government possess, if it strip one class of citizens, who have acquired property by the known and established rules of law, under the specious pretence of doing justice to another class of citizens?

It was implicitly agreed, that eighty per cent. depreciation would not authorize the interference proposed by the motion. I ask, then, for some point of depreciation to be pointed out, which will authorize such interference.

The question for which I contend has received the universal approbation of mankind; there are no instances of the interference contended for, and this general sense of mankind affords me some evidence of truth.

This contract was founded on a valuable consideration. It was the price of our liberty and independence. The possessor claimed, according to the very terms of the contract, though it is not pretended that the engagements of Government have been performed. No composition with the creditors is proposed; nor is the proposition founded on any pretended inability of the Government; for to comply with the intention of it, 1,600,000 dollars, annually, more than is proposed by the report of the Secretary, would be required.

By reason of the circumstances which have taken place, the honorable gentleman (Mr. Madison) supposes, that, if the whole amount of a security shall be paid to the present possessor, he will have a sum of money to which the original holder is equitably entitled. If this is true, then, no interposition is necessary, it being a well-known rule of law, that an action will always lie to recover money out of the hands of another, to which the plaintiff, from the principles of equity and good conscience, is entitled.

With regard to the effects, which will probably result from this measure, I have to observe, that they will be destructive to our national character. That the world is now willing, charitably, to impute our former miscarriages to events we could not control; but should our first measures, in regard to public faith, be a violent infraction of our contracts, it will sanction all our bitterest enemies have said, to our disadvantage. With regard to its effects on credit, little dependence will be placed on the plighted faith of a Government which, under the pretence of doing equity, has exercised a power of dispensing with its contracts, and has thereby formed for itself a precedent of future violations, both with respect to its funds and contracts. With regard to discovering who was the original holder, except so far as respects the army debt, I am certain there are no documents by which the necessary facts can be discovered.

I presume it is a fact, with regard to much the greater part of the debt, that any fictitious name was inserted. And with regard to the army debt, the soldiers, generally, who were in the service at the conclusion of the war, had received ample satisfaction for their services, at the time of their enlistment, having been paid more, on an average, than two hundred and fifty dollars per man.

I have only to add, that the proposed system will lay a foundation for infinite frauds and perjuries, and that it will, beyond all powers of calculation, multiply the evils of speculation.

Mr. Lawrence observed, that the proposition of the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Madison) derived force from the talents and knowledge of that gentleman in public transactions; but that, on examination, it would be found to contain doctrines very repugnant to the interest and prosperity of the Union.

He then stated, that the debts contracted by the United States were for loans of money, supplies of articles necessary for the public wants, and for actual services rendered in different employments. That these debts were ultimately adjusted and reduced to their present transferable form. That every part of the contract was essential to it. The negotiability was a material part. That the nature of the contract was frequently recognized by the late Government. That, in 1783, Congress recommended certain funds to be established to pay the interest, and put the principal in a course of discharge. That this recommendation was unequivocal, as to the nature of it, and made no discrimination between the possessor and original holder. That the subsequent conduct of that body was conformable to this recommendation. That they had annually called on the States to furnish money to pay the interest, without discriminating between the original holder and present possessor. That they had paid interest on the securities, without making any discrimination. That provision had been made for holders of loan-office certificates that were subject to liquidation, to have them cancelled, and others issued for the specie value. That the holders of certificates were enabled to have them registered, to guard against accidents; and that no distinction was made between the original holder and the alienee. That the transferable nature of the claim was for the benefit of the creditor, because it gave it an active value. That he consented to take it, and consulted his own advantage. That the conduct of the late Congress, since the war, had been uniform in the support of this contract, and they had done no act to impair its obligation, according to the terms of it. That this contract was valid against the Government; for, notwithstanding the truth of the gentleman's observations, that the nation is the same, though the bodies that administered the Government were different, there was yet far greater security; and to remove all doubt, a clause that made all debts and engagements valid against the United States, under the late General Government, valid against the present, was inserted in the constitution.

He further observed, that this contract having descended upon the Government, there was no right in the Legislature to impair the force of it. That the particular Governments are restrained from passing laws impairing the obligations of contracts. That this interference would be a violation of the contract, between the individuals, when the certificate was transferred; and it would not be presumed, the States being prohibited, that the General Government had the power to do it.

He then adverted to the principles of the gentleman, to wrest the obligation of the public to the original holder; and observed, that the same principles were in favor of the present possessor. That public justice required a performance of contracts, when there was no fraud on the part of the holder. That the possessor had been guilty of no fraud, no deception. That the contract between him and the original holder was fair, and that a hazard and risk attended the purchase adequate to the advantage. That nothing short of a revolution in Government could have produced payment. That if there was an imposition, the public occasioned it; and between the original holder and the public, there might be a claim for retribution. That public faith was as sacredly pledged to the bearer, or present possessor, as to the original creditor. That public credit results from fair and upright conduct; that the Government, to support it, must perform its contract. That this was a contract recognized by them, and as such should be discharged. That the condition we have been in made it proper for us to be cautious on this subject; and even at present, people doubted our disposition to establish our credit. That this would give a fatal blow to it, and when we should recover, if ever, was doubtful. That the public opinion was difficult to be ascertained; gentlemen had different modes to determine it. He supposed it was better ascertained by the acts of public bodies than by squibs in the newspapers, or by pamphlets written by individuals. That the uniform conduct of men, deputed by the particular States to represent them, in the late General Government, was the best standard; and their opinion, from the year 1783, was in favor of the present possessor. That the conduct of the particular States was another circumstance; that he did not know of any discrimination made by them, though it had been attempted. That the general opinion of men of property was in favor of it; and that these sources of public opinion were more certain than those he had before mentioned.

He further observed, that although he believed gentlemen supposed no advantage would be derived to the United States from this discrimination, yet much would arise. That part of the army was composed of foreigners, many had left the country, others were dead; all their part would be unclaimed. That certificates were issued to public officers to a great amount, and were paid by them to persons from whom they purchased. The difficulty of making proof of the original creditor would be great; and, from this circumstance, great sums would be gained to the public. That there were persons enough who would have sagacity to discern this; and they would doubt the purity of the public motive, should the gentleman's plan be adopted.

He then adverted to the circumstance of the new creditor receiving paper. That this paper might be subject to another liquidation on the same principle as the present. That it would introduce doubt and distrust of public engagements; and there would be no greater security, although a fund was pledged, than there is at present, for whenever the public pleased, they might destroy the obligation. Arguments were improperly addressed to their feelings; but that however hard it may be for the original creditor, who had parted with his certificates, to contribute to pay the debt, yet it would be equally hard on him who had been injured by Continental money, who had been plundered by the enemy, who had had his property burned by them in the course of the war; and that instances of these kinds were numerous.

He then adverted to the doctrine of the Court of Equity; and urged that this court must be governed by principle. That were the committee this high court, and the United States the original creditor, and the present possessor before them; and if there appeared no fraud on the part of the possessor, the original creditor would have no just claim on him. That between the United States and original creditors, the United States were in fault, and the claim, if good, would be against them.

Mr. Smith (of S. C.) remarked, that it was necessary and proper the House should give the subject the most ample discussion. The question had long agitated the public mind, and the people should know that it had occupied the serious attention of their Representatives, and be made acquainted with the principles of their decision. For his part, having bestowed on it the most attentive consideration, he could assert, that the more he contemplated it, the more he was impressed with a conviction, that the proposition was unjust, impolitic, and impracticable. It consisted of two parts: The one was to take away the property of one person; the other was to give that property to another; and this by a voluntary interposition of the House, by a mere act of power, without the assent of the former, or without even the application of the latter. For it was remarkable, that the original holders, who had alienated their certificates, had not come forward with this demand; and it is presumable, that, had they applied for redress, they would reject any indemnification which was the result of such manifest injustice. To prove that this was taking away the property of a citizen by force, he observed, that the purchaser had, by a fair purchase, acquired a right to the full amount of the sum expressed in the certificate, which it was not within the power of the House to divest him of. No tribunal on earth could lawfully deprive a man of his property fairly obtained. The purchaser bought under the act of Congress, making the securities transferable; and having given the market price, without fraud or imposition, he was, by virtue of such purchase, vested with the complete and absolute ownership of the certificate, as fully as the original holder; and had as much right to demand full payment as the original holder would have had, had the security been still in his hands. Even should the House refuse, by an act of power, to pay him more than half his demand, the other half would still remain against the public; it could not be extinguished. The debt would continue to haunt them; the creditors would loudly clamor for justice, and sooner or later the balance would be paid. Then would they incur all the odium of a violation of private rights, without deriving to the public any advantage whatever. He considered the measure as doing a certain evil, that a possible good might result from it. This was not, in his opinion, the proper mode of doing good. Justice cannot be founded on injustice; and to take money out of the pocket of one man, to put it into that of another, is a precedent which may justify future interferences. This step would lead the House to others: for, if the principle be a just one, then the Government should look into all the transactions and speculations of individuals, in order to correct them, and make retribution to every individual according to his losses. He was persuaded, that the true policy of a Legislative body was, to pursue the broad road of justice, clearly marked out before them; for it was an undeniable truth, that whenever they deviated into by-roads and trackless paths, without any other guide than their own imagination, they would get bewildered in a labyrinth of difficulties, and rejoice to trace back their steps, and regain the plain road. Now, the plain line of conduct is, to do strict justice, such as is enforced in judicial tribunals, between man and man, in a similar case. The debtor is bound to pay the debt to the holder of the security; the contract, between the giver of the bond and the person to whom it was given, is done away the moment the latter assigns it to another person. If A gives a bond to B, who parts with it to C, there is no longer any obligation on the part of A to pay B, but he must pay it to C. A has nothing to do with the private negotiations between B and C, nor to inquire what consideration was given for the security. All that he has to inquire is, whether he really signed it and had value received for it, and the amount of it. He cannot say to the holder, you gave but fifty dollars for this security of one hundred dollars, and I will pay you only fifty; for the law will compel him to pay the hundred. This is a point of justice between man and man. Is there another point of law and justice for the Government? By what rule is the Government to square its conduct, if not by those sacred rules which form the basis of civil society, and are the safeguard of private property?

The gentleman from Virginia has said, that giving the present holders, by alienation, the highest market price, would be doing them ample justice; but did the public mean to refund them the money they had actually advanced? No; they were to receive this ample justice by a bit of paper, nominally for ten shillings; but which this very measure would instantly depreciate to eight, or six shillings. They would have this consolation, that, according to the gentleman's reasoning, they would still have a claim against the Government for the balance. For, if the original holder, by selling his certificate for four shillings, has now a just claim against the Government for the balance of sixteen shillings, which it is asserted he has, of course the alienee, to whom the public should now acknowledge a debt of ten shillings, which he would sell for only six, would hereafter have a just demand against the public for four shillings. The reasoning might be carried further, for it would follow, that whenever the public shall pay in paper which shall depreciate, the seller will have a demand against the Government for the difference.

The constitution itself, he said, was opposed to the measure, for it was an ex post facto law, which was prohibited in express terms. The transfer of public securities was lawful at the time these alienations were made; an attempt, therefore, to punish the transferees is an attempt to make an ex post facto law, by making that now unlawful which was lawful at the time it was done. It alters the nature of the transaction, and annexes the idea of guilt to that which at the moment of commission, was not only perfectly innocent, but was explicitly authorized and encouraged by a public act of Congress. By that act those who had money were invited to purchase of those who held securities, and now we are called upon to punish the purchasers who bought under that invitation. The constitution restrains the States from passing any laws impairing the force of contracts; a fortiori is the Legislature of the Union restrained. What an example to hold up to the Judiciary of the United States! How could they annul a State law, when the State would be able to plead a precedent on the part of Congress? The right of property is a sacred right; no tribunal on earth can deprive a citizen of his property, unless for a fair equivalent, for the public welfare. The purchaser is vested, by the sale, with an absolute right, to the full amount of the security, and it is beyond their authority to divest him of it. They might, indeed, by an act of power, declare that he should be paid only half; but his right to the other moiety would not be extinguished. It had been said, that the original holder still had a claim against the public, because he had received only two shillings and sixpence for services worth twenty shillings. On the same principle, and with more justice, the present holder would still have a claim for ten shillings, because he has the public bond for twenty shillings. No ingenuity can overcome these stubborn principles of law and justice; they are immutable, and must ultimately prevail. The House had been told that if the Government had defrauded the original holders out of their dues, it was fit the public should rectify the fraud. The former Government was not deficient in inclination to do them ample justice; but, from the imbecility of the Confederation, had not the means. In those days of democratic enthusiasm, the people were afraid of an energetic Government: having so recently experienced the severity of the former one, the citizens of these States were cautious in trusting any Government with power; and it is not improbable that some of the original holders, who suffered their embarrassments, from the want of a Government competent to the payment of its debts, would themselves have opposed vesting Congress with powers adequate to this object. Even the present constitution, which is a mild one, met with considerable opposition: had it been rejected, the public securities would have never been paid.

Mr. Ames agreed with the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Madison) in regard to the validity of the debt. There was propriety in saying the nation is the same, though the Government be changed. The debt is the price of our liberties, and cannot be diminished a farthing, the gentleman from Virginia says; and why? Because the Government, as one of the contracting parties, cannot annul, or vary the bargain without the consent of the other. If the measure proposed by that gentleman corresponds with that sound principle, he should have the pleasure of agreeing with him on the ultimate decision; but if the measure should be found, on a fair discussion, to be subversive of that principle, it would not merit the countenance of the committee.

A claim upon our justice is made, on behalf of the original holders of securities, who have transferred them. Does the plighted faith of the country stand charged to pay the difference between the price their securities sold for in the market and their nominal sum? In order to make the affirmative appear, the worthy gentleman has said, that the paper is the only evidence of a prior contract; and while the paper was sold, the residuary right to the debt still remained in the seller. Supposing this novel doctrine to be true, which cannot be conceded, it will not warrant any conclusion in prejudice of any purchaser of the Loan-office debt; for the paper was given when the loan was made; as no prior debt existed, the paper is the very debt. The gentleman ought, therefore, to confine his motion to the army debt, as his principle seems inapplicable to any other. And even on liquidating the army debt, the certificate extinguished the prior debt; otherwise the public would be twice charged. As, when one man owes another an account, and gives his bond for the balance, the account is no longer of force. By the terms of the certificate, the person transferring has lost his claim against the public. He has freely transferred; for if violence or fraud were practised, the law will afford him redress. In society, as well as in a state of nature, property is changed by the consent of the last occupant. He may dispose of it by gift or at half price, and give a complete title. Nor will the pretence that this transfer was free only in appearance, avail; for the motives which disposed the owner to sell cannot affect the right of the purchaser. Every such creditor risked something; either that the Government would not pay him at all, or not in due season. The risk, computed in free and open market, will be nearly right. It is a kind of insurance against these risks, and the insurers and insured will calculate the rate of insurance better than Government can do it. If there is a new risk of Government interposing, it seems that the purchaser, who may be called the insurer, did not rate his risk high enough. It seems pretty clear, therefore, that there is no claim on the stipulated justice of the country.

The committee rose, reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again.

Tuesday, February 16.

Public Credit.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Baldwin in the chair.

Mr. Madison's proposition still under consideration.

Mr. Jackson observed, that although as young a politician as any on the floor, and convinced that the weight of experience was against him, on so important a national subject, he could not be silent; particularly as he had the honor of seconding the gentleman's motion (Mr. Madison) now before the House, that it would be therefore expected that he should bring forward his reasons, and the principle which actuated him to it. He confessed, that had he not before leaned to the side of a discrimination, the arguments of that able gentleman would have induced him to support the plan he had brought forward. He was induced on another motive to rise, to show that the numerous arguments of the gentlemen in opposition, yesterday, had not convinced him of the impracticability or injustice of the composition.

The House were told much of the moral obligations we were under of paying our debts, and the impolicy and injustice of interfering with private contracts. The obligation, he believed, was nowhere denied; the debt was of the highest nature; it was the price of our independence: the only difficulty is, how that debt shall be discharged. He would here observe, that the justice of the plan before the House, had not been so fully objected to, as the impracticability, although it had been asserted to be unjust, by some of the gentlemen who had spoken.

He would consider the justice of the proposition. The House had been told the nature of those contracts, and the valuable considerations of them. The contract, as it struck him, fell under the legal terms of do, ut des; I give that thou mayest give—or, I give that I may receive. In all contracts there are three requisites: 1st. The agreement. 2d. The consideration. 3d. The thing to be done or omitted. This consideration is to be an equivalent, or full recompense for the thing to be performed. Let us examine what is the thing to be done, and what the consideration is. The creditor, who was to perform the third article of the contract, held twenty shillings, which was to be given for a valuable consideration. What was this consideration? Two shillings and sixpence. He argued, that if this twenty shillings was worth no more than two shillings and sixpence, the contract was fair and substantial; but, if gentlemen carried the idea further, and declared this twenty shillings was money of equal value with the two shillings and sixpence given, he contended that the contract was destroyed. Equity would relieve, would declare it an unrighteous bargain, that there was not an adequate compensation, and would set aside the contract.

This public opinion is in favor of the original creditor; it is impossible to be otherwise. The people of America are a grateful people, and they cannot, with indifference, view the earnings of those who established their independence, converted into the coffers of the wealthy and ambitious. The speculator, he contended, was already more than satisfied, if it was only on the principle of interest which had accrued for six, seven, and eight years past, and which they had speculated on since.

Mr. Benson.—The gentlemen in favor of this motion come forward as the advocates of the late army. I wish, therefore, to be ascertained of one fact, do the army wish a measure of this kind to take place? I apprehend they do not; and I am led to this opinion from a knowledge of the habits of military men; they prefer their honor to every pecuniary consideration, and they generally are actuated by that principle alone. I will state a case. Suppose I purchased an officer's certificate for one hundred dollars, and I was to fund it; the Treasurer would say, you are to receive but fifty dollars, the other fifty are reserved for the original holder. Now, if I was to go and tell the officer, that, notwithstanding my purchase of all his right, title, and claim to the one hundred dollars, the Government would give me but fifty, retaining the other fifty for him, he would answer, I will never receive a farthing of it, because it is your money, fairly and honorably purchased of me. Now, in this case, what would you do? Should these fifty dollars fall to the Government, or to me? I reason in this manner, because I suppose this would be a general case. The Society of Cincinnati, of the State of New York, have, by a resolution, which they have published in the papers, disavowed the principle; and, in Rhode Island, a member of the Society was expelled for taking advantage of the tender-law of that State, and paying off a bona fide debt with depreciated paper. I apprehend the principle of action still remains the same throughout the whole of the army. When the soldier conveyed his certificate, there was a contract between the parties, that whatever sum the Government could pay, the whole of it should go to the assignee. Now, by an act of violence, you take the half of it away, and enable the assignor to discharge the contract by paying fifty dollars, when he had engaged that the purchaser should receive one hundred. This is, in effect, the same as the payment of depreciated paper under a tender-law, and would be equally rejected by those whom it is intended to favor.

I would state the case, as if it had happened between the gentleman and myself, could he hesitate to say the whole sum was fairly mine, and surrender it up, notwithstanding the legal interference of the Government? This is a question I would not suffer myself to reason upon; I would not trust my mind with it, lest it should preponderate in favor of self-interest, though against the common principles of truth and justice. I cannot think the army would accept the interposition; we ought, therefore, to be cautious how we trifle with the honor of other people.

I do not pretend to say, that the persons intended to be relieved by the proposed scheme have not a claim against the United States; but I deny that it is a claim upon our equity or justice; it may be a claim upon our humanity; and, whether we will satisfy this claim, depends on circumstances which have no connection with the present question.

Mr. Jackson.—God forbid, Mr. Chairman, that I should trifle with the honor of men I value, and esteem so highly; it would be the last thing I could think of. But, sir, as a Legislator, I cannot consent that the pittance which was the reward of distinguished services, shall be torn from them by the arts of insidious speculators; but there are others, who have a claim in equity upon our justice, who ought not to be sacrificed to the soldier's honor.

Mr. White said he agreed with the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Sedgwick) in the principle, that if a contract is made for a valuable consideration, and with the understanding of both parties, the Legislature ought not to interfere in it; and should it appear that the transaction between the original holders of certificates and the purchasers was a fair one, the dispute, in his mind, was at an end. But no gentleman had attempted to show that this was the case, though all the arguments against a discrimination were founded on that supposition. Perhaps it might be said, that every argument ought to be considered as fair; unless the contrary be proved. But where one man has obtained the property of another to the amount of £100 for £10, or £12 10s. the transaction must be explained to him, before he would believe it to be honest. What is the present case? The original holders, who have parted with the evidences of their debts, were principally common soldiers, militiamen, and farmers in indigent circumstances. Who were the purchasers? The Secretary of the Treasury tells us, that the most enlightened among our citizens are the creditors of the United States; common soldiers cannot be comprehended in this description. What must have passed, he asked, between the soldier, the militiaman, or farmer, and the purchaser? What reason could the purchaser assign for offering £10 for a paper which specified an obligation to pay £100? It must be something like this—the States will never pay you; if they do, it will be at a very remote period, so long as to be useless to you; but to relieve your present necessities, I will take the risk on myself, and give you £10. Now, could any enlightened man, he asked, in 1783, or at any subsequent period, in which time the transfers took place, believe that the independence of America was in danger, or that the debts could not be provided for?

He knew so many instances of transactions like that which he had stated, that he doubted not the greater part of the certificates had been obtained by similar means. Indeed he could not conceive any other by which they could be obtained.

He said we were, perhaps, without a precedent in any other nation which would be strictly applicable; but he desired gentlemen to determine for themselves, whether, under such circumstances, the man who had rendered services to his country should be deprived of his reward, or whether the purchaser ought to receive it. He said it was very different in the common transactions of life. If a man purchased a tract of land for £1,000, paid the money, and took a bond for the conveyance, a third person, by informing the purchaser that the seller could not make a title, or by other false suggestions should obtain a transfer of the bond in consideration of £100, and get a conveyance and possession of the land, yet, on repaying the £100, the conveyance would be set aside, and he would be restored to his land.

He gave some other instances of a similar nature, and said, he believed, if a bond, whether due, or to become due, was assigned under such circumstances, that the obligee would be justifiable in contesting it in a court of law, and that the injured person would, on application, obtain redress. He said, that in cases of extreme hardship, Courts of Equity would give relief without express proof of fraud; that this was the law of Great Britain, and was agreeable to the principles of the civil law; that the Roman jurists, he believed, had fixed the point of extreme hardship to one half of the value of the property transferred; in England the court was to judge.

He said he did not think the present holders were strictly entitled to any thing more than the original purchasers; that here the maxim, quoted on the other side of the question, that the assignee stands in the shoes of the assignor, properly applied. You cannot place another on more advantageous ground than that on which you stand yourself. The plea of an innocent purchaser could not take place; the nature of the transaction must appear evident to every man concerned in the transfer.

He said the reverse of this did not hold. An assignee was not always in as advantageous a situation as the assignor; and instanced the case of an executor who should obtain the assignment of his testator's bond at an undervalue; and who, he said, could not retain in his hands the amount of the sum specified in the bond, which the creditor might have recovered, but only the sum which he actually paid for the bond.

He said, that, though in his opinion the present holders of certificates were strictly entitled to no more than what had been paid to the original holders, yet, as an investigation of that circumstance would be involved in inextricable difficulties, and since we were (as had been very properly observed and well expressed by a gentleman from South Carolina) settling the business of a family, he was willing to acquiesce in the motion of his colleague. He said, that arbitrators often gave the injured party less than his due, for peace sake; and he was willing to act on the same principle. He doubted not but courts of justice would give relief in particular cases; but in a matter of that magnitude, he thought the interference of the Legislature very proper. The South Sea business, he thought, in that respect, a good precedent. Two gentlemen had mentioned the business; he would not say they had misstated the transaction, but he thought their accounts imperfect. They said they had the documents under their hands; he wished they had been read; he had them not, but would state from memory what he thought applicable to the case in question. The directors of the South Sea Company, by various arts, induced the people to give as high as £1,000 for £100 stock; in many instances the money was paid, in others it was contracted to be paid. A gentleman has said, that Parliament interfered, not to violate, but to perfect the contract: but what did Parliament do? They confiscated the estates of the directors, and applied the amount to the relief of those who had actually paid their money, and suspended suits against those who had not paid; and authorized the debtors to discharge their debts by the payment of ten per cent. on the real value of the stock subscribed for. But if he was wrong in supposing the present holders ought to stand in the place of the first purchasers, they could be considered only as having purchased, in market, a paper of indefinite value; if, then, they get the highest market price, they are not injured.

He would now endeavor to obviate some of the objections to the measure, on account of its impracticability; and in general terms observed, that much greater pains had been taken to show the impracticability than the injustice of it. He said, if it was just, we ought to adopt it; and he did not doubt but the wisdom of the Legislature would be able to carry it into effect. Purchasers, he said, had been represented as the supporters of public credit; but he could not consider them in that light. The offering a tenth or an eighth part of the value of the bond of an individual would tend rather to blast his credit than to support it; it would have the same effect with respect to the public.

He said he had lived long enough to be convinced that wise and great men, having the same object in view, often differ in opinion with respect to the means of accomplishing it; therefore, every proposition ought to be treated with candor and respect. He made that observation in consequence of what passed yesterday. A gentleman from Massachusetts had introduced his speech in a manner somewhat new—with an apology for an impropriety which he intended to commit. He pursued the arguments of those who went before him, in opposition to the amendment; but his speech consisted principally in an effusion of opprobrious epithets, some of which he repeated, and said, to detail the whole would perhaps fill half a column of a newspaper. He said he felt, on the occasion, not for himself, for he had not expressed his sentiments on the subject under debate, but for the honor of the House, in which, he thought, no such language ought to be used.

It had been said we came forward as volunteers; that the original holders did not put in their claim. That might be easily accounted for; they were generally obscure and indigent; had too much modesty, or perhaps not the capacity, to come forward. That he believed the crowd in the gallery did not consist of original holders.

Mr. Hartley.—I do not wish to trespass upon the time of the committee, but I cannot consent to give a silent vote on this occasion. I mean, however, to confine myself to a few observations, as many of my ideas have been communicated by other gentlemen. The honorable gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Smith) has anticipated much of what I had to urge; I shall therefore reduce my view of the subject to two points; first, as to the justice or legality of the measure, in obliging a creditor, or assignee, to take less than a certificate expresses, and pay the difference to another: second, as to the practicability or policy of the motion and its consequences.

As to making further satisfaction to the officers and soldiers of the late army, who have sold their certificates for an inconsiderable sum, and who have in consequence reaped a less reward than the Government contracted for, and intended them, I conceive it has nothing to do with the present question. However, if there is a disposition in Congress to make a further compensation to those brave and meritorious men, I would be among the first to support the measure; but I think this a subject too momentous to be involved collaterally in the question now under consideration.

With respect to the first point that offers itself, I have to remark, that a man who enters into a contract should know the consideration, and understand the principles upon which it is made, and these should be expressed on the face of the evidence of the contract. Now, if this contract be of a negotiable nature, the person to whom the same is offered, looks on its face, from which it discovers the agrementum, and is naturally led to consider the circumstances of the debtor, his ability and integrity. Suppose even the evidence of the contract to be obtained by fraud, unless it be against the express provision of a statute, and is transferred to a third person for a valuable consideration, without notice of fraud, it, must be paid. A fraud in any link of the chain is corrected by a bona fide transfer for a valuable consideration, without a knowledge of that circumstance by the purchaser.

Now, let us apply these principles to the present case. Here is an instrument of writing, specifying a debt to be due from the United States to the original holder, or bearer; this being brought into market, is offered to a third person, he, before his purchase, sees that the contract was executed in consequence of a consideration, and not against any positive statute; he then inquires the ability of the Union, and its disposition to comply with the contract; and, from a consideration of these circumstances, he concludes, with respect to his own interest and safety in the purchase, and pays what is conceived to be the value. What is there to discharge the Government from the payment? Is it pretended that the services and supplies were an inadequate compensation? If it even was so supposed, it would not authorize us to refuse a compliance with our engagements; any interference would set afloat the great principle upon which the public tranquillity and happiness depend. This leads me to consider the subject in my second point of view, with respect to its policy and practicability, and the consequences that would result from the attempt.

There are but few original holders who have transferred, that can be found; of consequence, you would throw the major part of the debt into an intricate labyrinth. The present possessor would be shifting back the certificate to the original holder, as far as a latitude is given. Many persons who were bare trustees, would be reaping advantages, and drawing money from the Public Treasury, to which they are not entitled; oaths would be multiplied on oaths; perjuries on perjuries; fraud upon fraud; and every species of speculation would ensue; deception would be a strong trait in the character of the times, and the whole of the United States would be in motion, each endeavoring to prey upon the other. The consequences of a second inundation of this nature are to be dreaded, and ought to be carefully avoided.

Mr. Moore observed, that it was agreed on all hands, and proposed in the report of the Secretary, that some discrimination ought to take place. It was, therefore, incumbent on the House to inquire how this might be effected with the greatest degree of equity. He supposed the result would be, that we are at liberty to pay the most meritorious first. Who constituted this class of citizens? He trusted the late army had an incontrovertible title to it. He could never believe that the men who stripped the soldiers of their hard earnings, by allowing them a tenth of their claim, would have the temerity to pretend that they had acquired the title of merit with their money, and that the soldier relinquished, with his certificate, the honor of his corps.

Had the present question been agitated in the hour of distress, when an army was essential to our defence, the arguments of justice and equity would have had their weight. Perhaps it is the soldier's misfortune, that the question arises at a time when the object for which he was employed is secured. But notwithstanding all that has been said, I am fully convinced that his claim is insuperable in equity. The soldier did not engage to fight your battles to be compensated with a certificate, acknowledging you were indebted to him; it was specie you promised, and specie he had a right to expect, or something equal to it in reality. The public faith was actually pledged to him for a compensation for his services; but will any one say the public faith was inviolably kept with him, when a certificate, worth but two shillings in the pound was forced upon him as specie? The poor soldier, thus situated, was followed by gangs of speculators, who endeavored to impose on his judgment by the relation of artful and insidious opinions of the public capacity and integrity in the discharge of these acknowledgments. The soldier, incapable of detecting the specious falsehood, swallows the bait, and becomes the easy prey of designing men. The people felt and resented the injuries thus perpetrated on those they esteemed; and I am much mistaken if the citizens of America do not still retain favorable impressions of the soldiers' services.

A great deal has been said, with respect to public opinion on this question. It is impossible, perhaps, to ascertain the public mind with precision; but there is but one way in our power, that is, to suffer the subject to be suspended for the present session, and on our return, or the election of our successors, the public sentiment in this respect will be evinced; but if we are to determine the public mind from our own observation, I should not hesitate to say that nine out of ten would be in favor of a discrimination. The people would, on this principle, I conceive, submit cheerfully to the payment of those taxes which are requisite to discharge the public engagements; but if they are to flow into the large cities, or into the hands of foreigners, who have speculated upon the misfortunes of the most meritorious class of our citizens, they will bear the burthen with murmurs and complaints.

Can any principle of justice demand the payment of the present possessor of a certificate, that does not apply more forcibly as it respects original holders? Will gentlemen, then, comply with the one, and neglect the other? Or rather, as my colleague has proposed, if they are incapable to pay both, will they not prefer a composition?

Mr. Wadsworth.—It appears to me that we have mistaken this business from the beginning, for we are proceeding as if it was taken for granted that all those who had alienated their certificates, have been compelled to it by necessity; there is nothing further from the truth. So far as it respects the army debt it may be just; and at this moment, were a soldiery to be paid in certificates, they would part with them at as great a discount as ever. There is a disposition in soldiers generally to despise pecuniary considerations; if they want money, they will dispose of their property at an inconsiderate value to obtain it. But this remark does not extend to the industrious part of the public creditors, because they have carefully retained the evidences of their debt, and now will receive its value. But even of the army, it is not true that they will suffer the loss of the discount at which their certificates have been sold. Having an opportunity of being well acquainted with the circumstances of the army, I know that many of the officers lived upon their friends, who supported them from time to time, with such sums as they had occasion for, and when they retired from the army, they repaid their friends with the certificates which they had received. The best way for gentlemen to ascertain the amount of the public debt which has been transferred from necessity, is to mix in the world, and try, from the circle of their acquaintance, to learn what the actual transfers have been. I have done this, and am conscious within myself, that seven-eighths of all the alienated debt has not been disposed of by the original holder from necessity.

When the requisitions of Congress were rejected by the State Assemblies, some of the most wealthy persons of the community, and those most violently opposed to Continental measures, seemed to concur in the opinion, that the States would never raise a revenue for the purpose of paying the domestic debt. The people finding this a prevailing opinion, were impressed with a dread of its consequences, and sold this species of negotiable property at a rate dictated by their apprehensions. I should conceive it as a great evil, if the Government were now to restore to such persons what they lost for want of confidence. I think this circumstance will operate considerably against the gentleman's principle of equity; now, as to the practicability of the measure, those gentlemen who are acquainted with the history of the manner in which the public debt was contracted, will readily agree with me, that it is an insuperable objection. In the years 1776 and 1777, very few advances were made to those who procured supplies to the public; they purchased what they got generally upon credit, and they were obliged, before their accounts could be settled, and they could get their money from the Public Treasury, to get receipts for all the articles they had furnished, and then they received orders upon the loan-officers, who, not having money, paid them in certificates, which these people, in return, paid over to those who furnished them with supplies. So that the agent appears a creditor to a very considerable amount, when his personal claim is very trifling, and those who risked their property, without pay of any kind, and who are undoubtedly deserving of some credit, appeared to be no other than speculators in public securities. I cannot see, in this case, any possible mode of discrimination. There are a variety of other official transactions which would demonstrate the impracticability, if it was necessary to oppose the proposition on that ground.

Wednesday, February 17.

Public Credit.

The House again went into a committee on the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Baldwin in the chair.

Mr. Madison's proposition still under consideration.

Mr. Page.—I do not wish to trouble the committee with a formal argument in favor of the motion offered by my colleague; but I wish to inquire of the gentlemen in opposition, whether they conceive the principles upon which it is grounded to be unjust? I observed, that their replies have generally gone against the practicability of the measure; but that does not prove to me that it is inequitable. If there is justice in the case, we must not consider the difficulty of the attempt. I trust, if it shall be found to stand on the foundation of immutable justice, that its practicability will be demonstrated. However, I shall not enter on that ground, but leave it to my colleague, who has so ably supported it on the other.

I would, however, beg gentlemen to answer these questions, and show to my mind the injustice of the United States complying with their engagements made to the first holders of certificates, as far as the case, and their abilities, will permit. Or where is the justice of doing more for the assignee than he, or his assignor, expected could or would be done? Where is the breach of faith in Government, if it pays its whole debt, with a justice, blended with mercy, resembling that of Heaven itself, making impartial retribution among the children of men, on the great day of accounts? Where is the propriety of branding a measure of this nature with epithets of infamy? or using such harsh expressions as have issued like a torrent from a gentleman on the other side of the House? So far am I from viewing the propositions through such a discolored medium, that I am induced to believe, if Congress adopt it, they may submit its rectitude, and stand the decision, of not only a superior order of beings, but of the Great Judge of the Universe, who is immutable truth itself.

What will the assignee lose by the measure? He will lose nothing, but the sanguine expectation lately raised in his mind.

Where is the interference in contracts, when the proposition is to comply sacredly, as far as the case will admit, with the contract between the State and its creditors? Is not the assignment of the certificates confirmed by the nation? Does it not give to the assignee the very thing stipulated between the assignor and assignee, that is, whatever sum the Government shall be pleased to pay for the certificate? And is not the sum now proposed, more than either the first or last assignee ever contemplated, till within a few days past, would ever be paid him?

The time is now arrived when justice ought to be done; it is looked for, with anxious expectation, by all classes of our fellow citizens; it will not avail us to say, it is impracticable, until experience has demonstrated it to be so. But the measure we contend for is termed an ex post facto law, and as such, is declared to be unconstitutional. Gentlemen torture every thing, in order to produce evidence against an act of justice. How can it be such an ex post facto law as is prescribed by the constitution, when that expression is conjunctive with a bill of attainder? It relates to that only, and can have no reference to the subject of the proposition before us. The same idea, which prevents us from an interference on the present occasion, will prevent us, as was observed by the gentleman from Georgia, from making a statute of limitation, or from correcting any frauds, which have been perpetrated on the unsuspicious soldiery. We must not contemplate the restoration of the starving soldier, with his humble wife and numerous and naked offspring, to a more eligible situation; we must not restore confidence to the man of honor who is buried in abject poverty, because it is addressing a language to the heart, which the haughtiness of the head disdains to hear; but, in doubtful cases of justice, the heart is the best director on this subject; happy will it be for us, if, as I think, they both concur to give their approbation to the present measure.

Thursday, February 18.

Public Credit.

The House again went into a committee on the Secretary of the Treasury's report, Mr. Baldwin in the chair.

Mr. Madison's proposition still under consideration.

Mr. Stone.—I shall not attempt to show the importance of the subject before us, as it relates to public credit; or as it will affect our character as a nation, at home and abroad. These have been explained; but it is proper for us to consider how far the amendment may operate to establish a precedent of Continental and State Legislation, the influence it may have on society, and the rules of civil conduct between man and man. Every community must experience that the conduct of the Government will influence the opinions of the individuals; and the spirit of the individual will transfuse itself into the Government. This action and reaction operates more powerfully in a Republican Government, founded on representation, than on any other.

Our situation is made more important, on the present occasion, by a disagreement on principles which ought to be fixed and plain; to me it seems that we differ on the principle of public justice. This may be unfortunate—let us endeavor to be reconciled. If the true distinction between natural and civil justice be accurately drawn, we may annihilate the point in contest. Agreeably to the principle of natural justice, no contract is perfect unless there be an equivalent; and that which we call a valuable consideration, on which to ground a contract, is founded on the idea of an equivalent, and presupposes it. And, I believe the idea of such a consideration being an equivalent, is the foundation of the validity of a contract, even in the English law; and is always carried into effect, wherever the execution is safe and certain; because I think, whenever it appears in any court of justice, that the consideration was not an equivalent, that then the contract is not carried into execution. The execution of the principle of natural justice then is safe; for instance, £99 19s. 11d. is not a consideration for £100, but a small sum may be a consideration for a valuable property; this does not arise from an infraction of the principle; but because the property may not have a determinate value in the society; and it would make judges arbitrary, legal proceedings extremely expensive, and contracts uncertain, if an extensive discretion as to the value was admitted. But whenever the consideration is so small and inadequate, as to appear so plainly and satisfactorily that the judge cannot be mistaken in determining it not to be an equivalent, there the contract is not valid.

Now, if we have received services from the soldier, and have given him paper, the question will be, whether that was an equivalent, and the paper a proper payment; or whether it is only an evidence of the debt? I take it to be a granted point that it was not a payment, but an obligation to pay whenever the United States should be able. It appears to me, then, that it was the duty of the person who received the paper, to wait a reasonable time; and the duty of the nation to make actual payment as speedily as possible. If the person who had received this paper had wantonly parted with it for nothing, I agree we should have been under no more obligation to pay him the expressed sum, than if we had paid him money, and he had flung it away or wasted it; but if, on the contrary, there was a delay in the execution of the contract, on the part of the Government, which compelled him to part with it, a compensation is equitable.

The same rule will apply between the original holder, or person who rendered the service, and present possessor or assignee; for shortness we will distinguish them by the names of soldier and speculator. The speculator, when he dealt with the soldier, must, from the nature of the thing, have induced him to believe that he gave him an equivalent for his purchase; and it might have been an inducement to the soldier to sell, to think he had something more than an equivalent; the speculator thought he had more than an equivalent, throwing necessity on the one side, and fraud on the other, out of the question. Then the confidence was equal, perhaps not a penny between them: I can hardly conceive the exchange took place on any other terms. You never can allow the confidence of the speculator to be estimated very highly, perhaps at not more than one for ten. For if it is admitted, that the speculator had entire confidence, he was guilty of a palpable fraud, and a violation of the first principle of justice; it amounted to this, that he gave £10 in money for £100 bond, which he was certain would be paid. I believe, if the case stood exactly in this form, no man would hesitate in deciding its illegality. If a man takes £100 for £10, it is illegal; but suppose there was a risk, and this risk was considered by the speculator as little less than ten for one, has he not discovered his own mistake when he sees he gets an interest of sixty per cent. on his capital; and that capital tenfold? This contract then ought to be void on the principle of a mistake; and here you place the speculator between Scylla and Charybdis. If he really thought the certificates only worth one for ten, you can give him no credit for his confidence; and you will admit that he ought to be satisfied with a reasonable advance on his purchase. But if you give him entire credit for his confidence in Government, you must give him no credit for his honesty. If both parties had known of this event, the contract would never have taken place. If you pay the whole sum, the speculator ought to take no more than what he gave a fair equivalent for. Gentlemen who seem afraid of giving to the soldier a part of his original claim, lest they affront his nobleness of soul, make no scruple to offer the speculator ten times the sum he is entitled to, on the principle of natural justice, without any apprehension that his honor will receive a wound. If the claim of the soldier was extinguished by receiving two shillings in the pound of the speculator, upon what principle is it contended that the latter should receive more than distributive justice? Arguments, proving that the justice due to the first has been satisfied by what has been done, apply with greater force to the latter.

It has been doubted, and a question has been agitated, whether we shall exercise the power of reconsidering these contracts, and whether a modification is constitutionally in our power? I will not go into this subject, or any other which ought to be taken for granted. I shall take it, that we are authorized, and do mean to interfere; you must act. Do you mean to pay the principal and interest now due? I believe not. Will you shelter yourself under the plea of necessity? That is impossible. I dare say, if the United States were sold, they would at least be worth six hundred millions of dollars; and we have but eighty millions to provide for. Having, then, the means and power, I trust you mean to exercise them; and as you exercise them, you ought to exercise them as justly as possible; then, to do this, you will, it is said, personify the three parties concerned—the United States, the original holder, and the speculator. I do not clearly comprehend the idea of a personified State; perhaps it arises from my dulness of apprehension. Man, in his natural capacity, is sometimes obliged to do what is considered unjust; but a State, when it has power, is not obliged to do what is unjust. The State, then, in this respect, is doing what an honest man would do, if he had the power of conducting this business as he thought proper.

The speculator comes to you with his bond, and tells you it is due. The soldier tells you that he has done services to a considerable amount, for which he never has been paid; and that those evidences of the demand which you gave to him, were obtained from him, for one-tenth part of what they were declared to be worth. The State says to the speculator, you have made a great deal, and out of a man who has risked his life, and borne every burthen which human nature could bear, with the greatest fortitude which the most virtuous heart is capable of exerting, let him have a part back. The speculator answers no; here is your bond. Consider again, replies the State, that the veteran's services, at the expense of his health and property, at the risk of his life, has saved you and yours; and not only that, but he is obliged to pay of your demand, more than he has ever received. What is now his answer? Here is the bond, pay me my bond. Under these circumstances, supposing the State an individual, he might, without much infamy to his character, exercise the power which he has over his own bond, in order to do justice between the parties. He might say to the speculator, you had the soldier in your power; you did him injustice; we have you now in our power, we will do you complete justice, but no more. A private man could never be injured in his reputation by such conduct: indeed, according to the result of these circumstances, the hardships of war, and the breach of contract, have unfortunately inflicted upon the man, the most meritorious in this community, or perhaps in any other community, sufferings and miseries—a punishment sufficient to atone for the guilt of the greatest crimes. This, in the event, appears to be the situation of the saviors of America.

Mr. Madison said that the opponents of his proposition had imposed on its friends not only a heavy task, by the number of their objections, but a delicate one by the nature of some of them. It had been arranged as an embarrassing measure which ought to be facilitated, and producing discussions which might end in disagreeable consequences. However painful it might be to contradict the wishes of gentlemen whom he respected, he could promise nothing more, in the present case, than his endeavors to disappoint their apprehensions. When his judgment could not yield to the propositions of others, the right to make and support his own, was a right which he could never suffer to be contested. In exercising it, he should study to maintain that moderation and liberality which were due to the greatness of the subject before the committee. He felt pleasure in acknowledging, that the like spirit had, in general, directed the arguments on the other side. Free discussions thus conducted are not only favorable to a right decision, but to a cheerful acquiescence of the mistaken opponents of it. They might have the further advantage of recommending the result to the public, by fully explaining the grounds of it. If the pretensions of a numerous and meritorious class of citizens be not well founded, or cannot be complied with, let them see that this is the case, and be soothed, under their disappointment, with the proof that they have not been overlooked by their country.

He would proceed now to review the grounds on which the proposition had been combated; which he should do without either following those who had wandered from the field of fair argument, or avoiding those who had kept within its limits.

It could not have escaped the committee, that the gentlemen to whom he was opposed, had reasoned on this momentous question as on an ordinary case in a court of law; that they had equally strained all the maxims that could favor the purchasing, or be adverse to the original holder; and that they dwelt with equal pleasure on every circumstance which could brighten the pretensions of the former, or discredit those of the latter. He had not himself attempted, nor did he mean to undervalue the pretensions of the actual holders. In stating them, he had even used as strong terms as they themselves could have dictated; but beyond a certain point he could not go. He must renounce every sentiment which he had hitherto cherished, before his complaisance could admit that America ought to erect the monuments of her gratitude, not to those who saved her liberties, but to those who had enriched themselves in her funds.

All that he wished was, that the claims of the original holders, not less than those of the actual holders, should be fairly examined and justly decided. They had been invalidated by nothing yet urged. A debt was fairly contracted; according to justice and good faith, it ought to have been paid in gold or silver; a piece of paper only was substituted. Was this paper equal in value to gold or silver? No. It was worth, in the market, which the argument for the purchasing holders makes the criterion, no more than one-eighth or one-seventh of that value. Was this depreciated paper freely accepted? No. The Government offered that or nothing. The relation of the individual to the Government, and the circumstances of the offer, rendered the acceptance a forced, not a free one. The same degree of constraint would vitiate a transaction between man and man, before any Court of Equity on the face of the earth. There are even cases where consent cannot be pretended; where the property of the planter or farmer had been taken at the point of the bayonet, and a certificate presented in the same manner. But why did the creditors part with their acknowledgment of the debt? In some instances, from necessity; in others, from a well-founded distrust of the public. Whether from the one, or the other, they had been injured; they had suffered loss, through the default of the debtor; and the debtor cannot, in justice or honor, take advantage of the default.

Here, then, was a debt acknowledged to have been once due, and which was never discharged; because the payment was forced and defective. The balance, consequently, is still due, and is of as sacred a nature as the claims of the purchasing holder can be; and if both are not to be paid in the whole, is equally entitled to payment in part.

He begged gentlemen would not yield too readily to the artificial niceties of forensic reasoning; that they would consider not the form, but the substance—not the letter, but the equity—not the bark, but the pith of the business. It was a great and an extraordinary case; it ought to be decided on the great and fundamental principles of justice. He had been animadverted upon, for appealing to the heart as well as the head; he would be bold, nevertheless, to repeat, that, in great and unusual questions of morality, the heart is the best judge.

It had been said, by a member from Massachusetts, that the proposition was founded on a new principle in Congress. If the present Congress be meant, that is not strange, for Congress itself is new; if the former Congress be meant, it is not true, for the principle is found in an act which had been already cited. After the pay of the army had, during the war, been nominally and legally discharged in depreciated paper, the loss was made up to the sufferers.

It had been said, by a member from New York, that this case was not parallel, there being no third party like the present holders of certificates. This objection could not be valid. The Government paid ten dollars' worth in fact, but only one to the soldier. The soldier was then the original holder. The soldier assigned it to the citizen; the citizen then became the actual holder. What was the event? The loss of the original holder was repaired, after the actual holder had been settled with, according to the highest market value of his paper.

He did not mean, however, to decide on the whole merits of this last transaction; or to contend for a similitude, in all respects, between the two kinds of paper. One material difference was, that the bills of credit, by more frequent transfers, and by dividing the change of value among a greater number of hands, rendered the effect of less consequence to individuals, and less sensible to the public mind. But this difference, whatever force it might give to the claims of the purchasing holder of certificates, could diminish nothing from the claims of the original holders who assigned them.

It had been said, by another member from Massachusetts, that the old Government did every thing in its power. It made requisitions, used exhortations, and in every respect discharged its duty; but it was to be remembered, that the debt was not due from the Government, but the United States. An attorney, with full powers to form, without the means to fulfil engagements, could never, by his ineffectual, though honest efforts, exonerate his principal.

He had been repeatedly reminded of the address of Congress in 1783, which rejected a discrimination between original and purchasing holders. At that period, the certificates to the army, and citizens at large, had not been issued. The transfers were confined to loan-office certificates, were not numerous, and had been, in great part, made with little loss to the original creditor. At present, the transfers extend to a vast proportion of the whole debt, and the loss to the original holders has been immense. The injustice which has taken place has been enormous and flagrant, and makes redress a great national object. This change of circumstances destroys the argument from the act of Congress referred to; but if implicit regard is to be paid to the doctrines of that act, any modification of the interest of the debt will be as inadmissible as a modification of the principal.

It had been said, that if the losses of the original creditors are entitled to reparation, Congress ought to repair those suffered from paper money—from the ravages of the war, and from the act of barring claims not produced within a limited time. As to the paper money, either the case is applicable, or it is not: if not applicable, the argument fails; if applicable, either the depreciated certificates ought to be liquidated by a like scale, as was applied to the depreciated money; or the money, even if the whole mass of it was still in circulation, ought to be literally redeemed, like the certificates. Leaving the gentleman to make his own choice of these dilemmas, he would only add, himself, that if there were no other difference between the cases, the manifest impossibility of redressing the one, and the practicability of redressing the other, was a sufficient answer to the objection. With respect to the towns burnt, and other devastations of war, it was taught, by the writers on the law of nations, that they were to be numbered among the inevitable calamities of mankind. Still, however, a Government owed them every alleviation which it could conveniently afford; but no authority could be found that puts on the same footing with those calamities, such as proceed from a failure to fulfil the direct and express obligations of the public. The just claims barred by the act of limitation, were, in his opinion, clearly entitled to redress. That act was highly objectionable. The public, which was interested in shortening the term, undertook to decide, that no claim, however just, should be admitted, if not presented within nine months. The act made none of the exceptions usual in such acts, not even in favor of the most distant parts of the Union. In many instances, it had been absolutely impossible for the persons injured to know of the regulation. Some of these instances were within his own knowledge. To limit the duration of a law to a period, within which it could not possibly be promulged, and then take advantage of the impossibility, would be imitating the Roman tyrant, who posted up his edicts so high that they could not be read, and then punished the people for not obeying them.

It has been said, that if the purchased certificates were funded at the rate proposed, they would fall in the market, and the holders be injured. It was pretty certain, that the greater part, at least, would be gainers. He believed that the highest market price, especially with the arrears of interest incorporated, well funded at six per cent, would prevent every loss that could justify complaint.

But foreigners had become purchasers, and ought to be particularly respected. Foreigners, he remarked, had themselves made a difference between the value of the foreign and domestic debt; they would, therefore, the less complain of a difference made by Government here. It was his opinion that the term stated in the proposition would yield a greater profit to the foreign purchasers than they could have got for their money if advanced by them in any of the funds of Europe.

The proposition had been charged with robbing one set of men to pay another. If there were robbery in the case, it had been committed on the original creditors. But, to speak more accurately, as well as more moderately, the proposition would do no more than withhold a part from each of two creditors, where both were not to be paid the whole.

A member from New York has asked whether an original creditor, who had assigned his certificate, could, in conscience, accept a reimbursement in the manner proposed? He would not deny that assignments might have been made with such explanations, or under such circumstances, as would have that effect; but, in general, the assignments have been made with reference merely to the market value, and the uncertainty of the steps that might be taken by the Government. The bulk of the creditors had assigned under circumstances from which no scruples could arise. In all cases where a scruple existed, the benefit of the provision might be renounced. He would, in turn, ask the gentleman, whether there was not more room to apprehend that the present holder, who had got his certificate of a distressed and meritorious fellow-citizen for one-eighth or one-tenth its ultimate value, might not feel some remorse in retaining so unconscionable an advantage?

Similar propositions, it was said, had been made and rejected in the State Legislatures. This was not a fact. The propositions made in the State Legislatures were not intended to do justice to the injured, but to seize a profit to the public.

But no petitions for redress had come from the sufferers. Was merit, then, to be the less regarded, because it was modest? Perhaps, however, another explanation ought to be given. Many of the sufferers were poor and uninformed. Those of another description were so dispersed, that their interests and efforts could not be brought forward. The case of the purchasing holders was very different.

The constitutionality of the proposition had been drawn into question. He asked whether words could be devised that would place the new Government more precisely in the same relation to the real creditors with the old? The power was the same; the obligation was the same. The means only were varied.

An objection had been drawn from the article prohibiting ex post facto laws. But as ex post facto laws relate to criminal, not civil cases, the constitution itself requires this definition, by adding to a like restriction on the States an express one against retrospective laws of a civil nature.

It had been said, that foreigners had been led to purchase, by their faith in the article of the constitution relating to the public debts. He would answer this objection by a single fact: Foreigners had shown, by the market price in Europe, that they trusted the nature of foreign debt more under the old Government, than the nature of the domestic debt under the new Government.

Objections to the measure had been drawn from its supposed tendency to impede public credit. He thought it, on the contrary, perfectly consistent with the establishment of public credit. It was in vain to say, that Government ought never to revise measures once decided. Great caution on this head ought, no doubt, to be observed; but there were situations in which, without some legislative interposition, the first principles of justice, and the very ends of civil society, would be frustrated. The gentlemen themselves had been compelled to make exceptions to the general doctrine; they would probably make more before the business was at an end.

It had been urged, that if Government should interpose in the present case, as interposition would be authorized in any case whatever where the stock might fluctuate, the principle would apply as well to a fall of sixty or seventy per cent. as to a fall of six hundred or seven hundred per cent. He could not admit this inference. A distinction was essential between an extreme case, and a case short of it. The line was difficult to be drawn; but it was no more incumbent on him than on his opponents to draw it. They themselves could not deny that a certain extremity of the evil would have justified the interposition. Suppose that the distress of the alienating creditors had been ten times as great as it was; that instead of two, three, and four shillings in the pound, they had received a farthing only in the pound; and that the certificates lay now in the hands of the purchasers in that state, or even at a less value, was there a member who would rise up and say, that the purchasers ought to be paid the entire nominal sum, and the original sufferer be entitled to no indemnification whatever?

Gentlemen had triumphed in the want of a precedent to the measure. No government, it was said, had interposed to redress fluctuations in its public paper. But where was the government that had funded its debts under the circumstances of the American debt? If no government had done so, there could be no precedent either for or against the measure, because the occasion itself was unprecedented. And if no similar occasion had before existed in any country, the precedent to be set would at least be harmless, because no similar occasion would be likely to happen in this.

If gentlemen persisted, however, in demanding precedents, he was happy in being able to gratify them with two, which, though not exactly parallel, were, on that account, of the greater force, since the interposition of Government had taken place where the emergency could less require them.

The first was the case of the Canada bills. During the war which ended in 1763, and which was attended with a revolution of the Government in Canada, the supplies obtained for the French army in that province were paid for in bills of exchange and certificates. This paper depreciated, and was bought up chiefly by British merchants. The sum and the depreciation were so considerable as to become a subject of negotiation between France and Great Britain at the peace. The negotiations produced a particular article, by which it was agreed by France that the paper ought to be redeemed, and admitted by Great Britain that it should be redeemed at a liquidated value. In the year 1766 this article was accordingly carried into effect by ministers from the two courts, which reduced the paper in the hands of the British holders, in some instances, as much as seventy-five per cent. below its nominal value. It was stated, indeed, by the reporter of the case, that the holders of the paper had themselves concurred in the liquidation; but it was not probable that the concurrence was voluntary. If it was voluntary, it shows that they themselves were sensible of the equity of the sacrifice.

The other case was of still greater weight, as it had no relation to war or treaty, and took place in the nation which has been held up as a model with respect to public credit. In the year 1713, the civil list of Great Britain had fallen into arrears to the amount of £500,000. The creditors who had furnished supplies to the Government had, instead of money, received debentures only from the respective officers. These had depreciated. In that state, they were assigned in some instances; in others, covenanted to be assigned. When the Parliament appropriated funds for satisfying these arrears, they inserted an express provision in the act, that the creditors who had been obliged, by the default of Government, to dispose of their paper at a loss, might redeem it from the assignees by repaying the actual price, with an interest of six per cent., and that all agreements and covenants to assign should be absolutely void. Here then was an interposition on the very principle, that a Government ought to redress the wrongs sustained by its default, and on an occasion trivial when compared to that under consideration; yet it does not appear that the public credit of the nation was injured by it.

The best source of confidence in Government was the apparent honesty of its views. The proposition could not possibly be ascribed to any other motive than this, because the public was not to gain a farthing by it. The next source was an experienced punctuality in the payments due from the Government. For this support to public credit, he relied on what had been experienced by a part of the foreign creditors; on the provision to be made for the residue; and on the punctuality which, he flattered himself, would be observed in all future payments of the domestic creditors. He was more apprehensive of injury to public credit from such modifications of the interest of the public debt as some gentlemen seemed to have in view. In these the public would be the gainer, and the plea of inability the more alarming, because it was so easy to set up, so difficult to be disproved, and for which, consequently, the temptations would be so alluring.

Mr. Seney rose and observed, that it was with reluctance he attempted to express to the committee his ideas upon a question which had been so fully and ably discussed. However, as it had been expected that gentlemen would not, in a case of such magnitude, be content with merely a silent vote, he rose to declare the reasons upon which his decision was founded. In doing this, he hoped that he should not use epithets which might be deemed harsh, or language which would be offensive; that although the sentiments of other members should differ from his, he wished so far to respect those sentiments as to treat them with decency.

He considered the proposition of the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Madison) was designed to effect two purposes: the one, a compensation to the original creditors, who, during the late war, in times of distress, had loaned money, furnished supplies, and rendered military services; and who had only received satisfaction therefor in paper of inconsiderable value, forced on them by the public, and depreciated by their acts. This class of citizens, he conceived, had a just and equitable claim for the full difference in value between that paper, when paid, and specie. The other object of the proposition alluded to, was, he said, to compensate those creditors who now hold alienated certificates. Each description of those creditors had, in his opinion, claims on the public. The first was founded on an original contract between them and the Government, part of which only had been complied with, and the residue still remained undischarged. The other was grounded on having possession of the paper which contained the promise to pay.

It has been contended that the United States have not ability to pay both. In this case a question arises: What is, upon the whole, most just and expedient? Some gentlemen contend, that it is incumbent on us to make full provision for those who hold the assigned certificates, without any for the original creditors who have alienated them. Others think, that the misfortune of Government, in this respect, should not be felt by either class solely, but be borne by both. That it is more just to adopt a mode of composition, by which those creditors should mutually share in this misfortune, and be mutually benefited by a provision within our power to make; with those his sentiments accorded. He could not be impressed with the justice or reason of a measure calculated to make a total sacrifice of one class of creditors, and full payment to the other class. Such a step could not, in his opinion, be justified in any distinction or precedence which existed in their claims. When it was considered that the original creditors furnished money and supplies, and rendered services essential to the preservation of their country, and at a time when its liberties were invaded, and every thing which can be dear to freemen was in jeopardy and at stake, he could not apprehend that their claims would be deemed inferior to those of their rivals. In his opinion, these circumstances entitled them to superior notice. Believing, however, that the amendment under consideration would, upon the whole, effect more substantial justice than any other practicable scheme that had been proposed to the committee, or which he had heard of, his assent would, therefore, be given to it.

Tuesday, February 19.

Public Credit.

The House again went into a committee on the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Baldwin in the chair.

Mr. Madison's proposition still under consideration.

Mr. Livermore said he was against any discrimination between the soldier and other public creditor, who held a public security, made payable to bearer, and consequently transferable, with intent that they might be sold, if convenience or necessity should require it. This had been understood by all parties, as well in America as in foreign countries, and they had been sold accordingly. The advocates for discrimination have not denied this; they have only alleged that the low rate at which the poor soldier or other public creditor had sold his securities was a sufficient reason for Congress to interfere and set aside the sale. In opposition to this, he observed, that persons had a right to buy and sell at such prices as they could mutually agree upon, provided there was no fraud.

A diamond, a horse, or a lot of ground, might be sold too cheap, or too dear, and so might any other property; but Government could not interfere without destroying the general system of law and justice. Esau had sold his birthright for a mess of pottage, and heaven and earth had confirmed the sale. The distresses of the army, both officers and soldiers, at the time they received and sold their securities, had been painted in too strong colors. They were not so emaciated by sickness and famine as had been represented. They were crowned with victory, and received with applause by their fellow-citizens; and although they had been paid in paper, their loss had been made up by large bounties, and in other emoluments; so that, in point of property, they were equal to their fellow-citizens who had borne the burden of taxes under which many are laboring to this day. Let them be called brave soldiers, patriotic soldiers, but not poor soldiers. They ought to be governed by the same system of justice that governs others; but their contracts ought not to be set aside out of partiality to them. The case quoted from the statute of Queen Anne is not applicable to this case, inasmuch as Government had not originally made the debentures therein mentioned transferable. Neither did the case of the Canada bills apply; for, as he understood, those bills were paid to British merchants and to others who had purchased them.

Mr. Madison.—If paper, or the honor of statues or medals can discharge the debts of justice, payable in gold or silver, we can not only exonerate ourselves from those due to the original holders, but from those of the assignees. So far as paper goes, the latter have received the compensation. If honor can discharge the debt, they have received civil honors; look around to the officers of every Government in the Union, and you find them sharing equal honors with those bestowed on the original creditors. But, sir, the debt due in gold and silver is not payable either in honor, appointments, or in paper.

Gentlemen say it will work injustice; but are we not as much bound to repair the injustice done by the United States? Yet I do not believe the assertion has been established by any thing that has been urged in its support. The gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Stone) acknowledges that there is a moral obligation to compensate the original holders; how will they get what he admits is their due? He is willing to make an effort, by applying the resources of the country to that purpose; but if we are to judge by the sentiments of other gentlemen who have spoken on this occasion, we have little to expect from that quarter. Suppose the debt had depreciated to a mere trifle, and suppose the sale of the Western Territory had extinguished the certificates, let me ask, whether, if the United States had thus exonerated themselves from the obligation to the assignee, whether the claim of the original holder would not still remain in its full force in a moral view? But believing the point of justice to be exhausted, I will just add one remark upon the practicability. The transferred certificates, generally, will show the names of the original holders, and here there is no difficulty. With respect to those granted to the heads of either of the five great departments, the books of the Treasurer of Loans, as well as the accounts of those departments now in the Treasury, will designate, with a great degree of accuracy, and this may be followed up by the usual mode of obtaining evidence; and I believe every security may be provided against fraud in this case that was provided in the case of the commissioners who were sent into the respective States for ascertaining and liquidating the claims of individuals. That there will be some difficulty I admit, but it is enough for me that it is not insuperable; and I trust, with the assistance which the cause of equity and justice will ever obtain from the members of the National Legislature, they will easily be surmounted.

Monday, February 22.

Public Credit.

The House then resolved itself into a committee on the Report of the Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Baldwin in the chair.

Mr. Madison's proposition still under consideration.

Mr. Page.—As the worthy and eloquent member who replied to me did not answer the questions I put to the committee, I suppose, he either did not hear them, did not understand me, or could not answer them. I hope, before the committee decide, they will attempt at least to resolve them. I asked, where is the injustice of the State's complying with its engagements made to the first holders of certificates as far as the case admits? Where is the justice of doing more for the assignee than he or his assignor expected could or would be done? Where is the breach of faith in Government, if it paid its whole debt with justice, blended with mercy? Where is the interference in contracts, when the proposition is to comply sacredly, as far as the case will admit, with the contracts between a State and its creditors? I asked, is not the assignment of certificates confirmed by the motion? Does it not give to the assignee the very thing stipulated to be given, that is, whatever sum Government shall be pleased to pay for the certificates, for that was the condition of the assignment? And is not the sum now proposed more than either the first or last holder, till within these few days, supposed would be paid him? I asked also, ought not an honest assignee to be pleased that Government intends to do that justice to his assignor which he ought to do himself, were the whole payment made to him? I asked, of what is the assignee deprived but of his late sanguine expectations? I asked, whether the proposition before us does not rather establish confidence in Government than the contrary? For, sir, to make use of the comparison which has been often made here between the State and an obligor on a bond, what could give more credit to any man's bonds than to find that, though they had depreciated to half a crown in the pound, he paid the whole twenty shillings; ten shillings to the assignee, who had given but two shillings and sixpence, and ten to the obligee who had sold at so great a loss?

It is true Congress may, consistently with the rules of common law courts, pay the bearer and take no notice of the creditors; but were a Court of Equity instituted to decide on the case of certain speculators, how would they decide? Government, in the most solemn manner, pledged itself to make compensation to the soldiers, have they done it? Instead of doing this, certain persons, who took advantage of their ignorance and their poverty, bought up the evidence of their debt at one-eighth of the nominal value; and in some States these very men had drawn what constituted the principal of the purchase with six per cent. interest in three years.

In what does the case differ between the depreciated paper and the certificates? Paper money was redeemed at forty for one, as well to the last as the first holder; the same principle would lead to give the last holder of the certificate the depreciated value at which he bought it. But we propose to work no injustice, we give the first holder, if he is the holder still, the full value stipulated. It would not be injustice to consider the assignee, as having paid what he advanced, in consequence of his confidence in Government, on account of that Government; and that the Government ought to repay him what he so advanced; having repaid that sum, the balance ought to go to the credit of the assignee. I am willing, on this consideration, to call the speculator the friend and supporter of the Government, who kindly lent us when in need, two shillings and sixpence in every pound, to advance to the poor soldier. If certificates are the evidence of the debt, it proves, sir, that the balance is due to him in whose name it issued. This is the day of payment, and we must pay accordingly; and here permit me to remark, in reply to the observation of the gentleman from New Hampshire, (Mr. Livermore,) that Jacob was punished for his fraud, but for his faith enjoyed the promise; even so let us regard those who had so much confidence in us as to advance two shillings and sixpence to the distressed soldier.

Mr. Heister was in hopes this question would be postponed for the present, in order to go into a consideration of the ways and means: when, if it appeared that the United States were incapable of making full provision, it might be considered, whether one deviation would not authorize the other? If any gentleman would make a motion to that effect, he would second him.

The question was now taken on Mr. Madison's proposition for a composition, and it passed in the negative; yeas 13, nays 36.[35]

Wednesday, March 17.

On Slavery.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the Report of the committee, to whom was referred the memorial of the people called Quakers, &c., Mr. Benson in the chair.

The question of order was put, when it was determined that Mr. Tucker's last amendment was not in order.

The report was then taken up by paragraphs. The first proposition being read,

Mr. White moved that it be struck out. He did this, he said, because he was against entering into a consideration at this time of the powers of Congress. He thought it would be time enough for this when the powers are called in question. He then read the next, which he said was entirely unnecessary, as it contains nothing more than what is contained in express terms in the constitution. He passed on to the third, which he said was equally unnecessary; and to the fourth, which was provided for by the constitution. He said, that he should agree to the fifth and sixth, with certain modifications. Agreeable to this idea, he offered those two in a different form. He disagreed to the seventh proposition, as unnecessary and improper. He concluded by observing, that his wish was to promote the happiness of mankind—and among the rest those who are the objects of the present consideration—but this he wished to do in conformity to the principles of justice and with a due regard to the peace and happiness of others; he would contribute all in his power to their comfort and well-being while in a state of slavery; but he was fully of opinion that Congress has no right to interfere in the business, any further than he proposed by the two propositions as modified. He did not, however, anticipate the difficulties from a total prohibition which some gentlemen seem to apprehend—and if Congress had it in their power to interdict this business at the present moment, he did not think the essential interests of the Southern States would suffer. Twenty years ago, he supposed the idea he now suggested would have caused universal alarm. Virginia, however, about twelve years since, prohibited the importation of negroes from Africa, and the consequences apprehended never were realized; on the contrary, the agriculture of that State was never in a more flourishing situation.

Mr. Hartley.—I have the honor to be one of the committee on the memorials, and will, with the leave of this committee, mention some particulars which took place in the course of the investigation of the business. He premised that he was sorry that the question of right had been brought forward yesterday—and was not a little surprised to hear the cause of slavery advocated in that House, and language held towards the petitioners which his experience had never shown to be Parliamentary—he read some memorandums taken in committee, and had particular reference to a law passed in Grenada, which he applauded for its humanity, and truly benevolent spirit. He reprobated the illiberal treatment which the memorialists had received, and asserted that they were friends to the constitution, and that on the present occasion they came forward from the most laudable motives, from a wish to promote the happiness of mankind; that their conduct, so far from meriting censure, deserved, and would receive, the applause of the civilized world.

Mr. Brown, in a considerable speech, advocated the motion of Mr. White. He enlarged on the pernicious consequences that may be expected to flow from the interference of Congress; he pointed out the effects which had resulted from the interposition of the Quakers, by which the prospects of the Southern States in slaves had been rendered very precarious—and if Congress should adopt the report as it stands, the consequences would be pernicious in the highest degree. The negro property will be annihilated. The emancipation of slaves will be effected in time, it ought to be a gradual business; but he hoped that Congress would not, to gratify people who never had been friendly to the independence of America, precipitate the business to the great injury of the Southern States.

Mr. Burke entered into a very extensive consideration of the subject. He gave an account of the humane treatment which the slaves of the Southern States received, their habitations, families, children, privileges, &c. He then showed that their emancipation would tend to make them wretched in the highest degree. He animadverted with great freedom on the past and present conduct of the Quakers. He denied that they were the friends of freedom; he said, that during the late war, they were for bringing this country under a foreign yoke; they descended to the character of spies; they supplied the enemy with provisions; they were guides and conductors to their armies; and whenever the American army came into their neighborhood, they found themselves in an enemy's country. Mr. Burke was proceeding in this strain, when he was interrupted by being called to order. A warm altercation ensued, and in the midst of it, a motion was made that the committee rise. This motion was negatived, and Mr. Burke added a few more observations on the injustice of the measure of interference, as it respected the property of the Southern States.

Mr. Smith (of South Carolina) said he lamented much that this subject had been brought before the House; that he had deprecated it from the beginning, because he foresaw that it would produce a very unpleasant discussion; that it was a subject of a nature to excite the alarms of the Southern members, who could not view, without anxiety, any interference in it on the part of Congress. He remarked, that as they were resolved into a Committee of the Whole on the powers of Congress respecting slavery and the slave trade, in consequence of certain memorials from the people called Quakers and the Pennsylvania Society for the abolition of slavery, the whole subject, as well as the contents of these memorials, was under consideration. He should therefore enter into the business at large, and offer some comments on the contents of the memorial.

The memorial from the Quakers contained, in his opinion, a very indecent attack on the character of those States which possess slaves. It reprobates slavery as bringing down reproach on the Southern States, and expatiates on the detestation due to the licentious wickedness of the African trade, and the inhuman tyranny and bloodguiltiness inseparable from it. He could not but consider it as calculated to fix a stigma of the blackest nature on the State he had the honor to represent, and to hold its citizens up to public view as men divested of every principle of honor and humanity. Considering it in that light, he felt it incumbent on him not only to refute those atrocious calumnies, but to resent the improper language made use of by the memorialists. Before he entered into the discussion, he begged to observe, that when any class of men deviated from their own religious principles, and officiously came forward in a business with which they had no concern, and attempted to dictate to Congress, he could not ascribe their conduct to any other cause but to an intolerant spirit of persecution. This application came with the worst grace possible from the Quakers, who professed never to intermeddle in politics, but to submit quietly to the laws of the country.

He had met with a publication which came out in the year 1775, (at a period when the affairs of America were in a very desponding situation,) entitled "The ancient Testimony and Principles of the Quakers." It set forth that their religious principles restrained them from having any hand or connivance in setting up and putting down kings and governments; that this was God's peculiar prerogative for causes best known to himself; that it was not their business to be busybodies above their stations, but only to pray for the King and safety of their nation, that they might live a quiet and peaceable life, under the Government which God was pleased to set over them. If these were really their sentiments, why did they not abide by them? Why did they not leave that, which they call God's work, to be managed by himself? Those principles should instruct them to wait with patience and humility for the event of all public measures, and to receive that event as the Divine will. Their conduct on this occasion proved that they did not believe what they professed, or that they had not virtue enough to practise what they believed. Did they mean to rob the Almighty of what they call his prerogative? And were they not partial ministers of their own acknowledged principles? It was difficult to credit their pretended scruples; because, while they were exclaiming against the Mammon of this world, they are hunting after it with a step steady as time, and an appetite keen as the grave.

The memorial from the Pennsylvania Society applied, in express terms, for an emancipation of slaves, and the report of the committee appeared to hold out the idea that Congress might exercise the power of emancipating after the year 1808; for it is said that Congress could not emancipate slaves prior to that period. He remarked, that either the power of manumission still remained with the several States, or it was exclusively vested in Congress; for no one would contend that such a power would be concurrent in the several States and the United States. He then showed that the State Governments clearly retained all the rights of sovereignty which they had before the establishment of the constitution, unless they were exclusively delegated to the United States; and this could only exist where the Constitution granted, in express terms, an exclusive authority to the Union, or where it granted in one instance an authority to the Union, and in another prohibited the States from exercising the like authority, or where it granted an authority to the Union, to which a similar authority in the States would be repugnant.

He applied these principles to the case in question; and asked, whether the constitution had, in express terms, vested the Congress with the power of manumission? Or whether it restrained the States from exercising that power? Or whether there was any authority given to the Union, with which the exercise of this right by any State would be inconsistent? If these questions were answered in the negative, it followed that Congress had not an exclusive right to the power of manumission. Had it a concurrent right with the States? No gentleman would assert it, because the absurdity was obvious. For a State regulation on the subject might differ from a Federal regulation; in which case one or the other must give way. As the laws of the United States were paramount to those of the individual States, the Federal regulations would abrogate those of the States, consequently the States would thus be divested of a power which it was evident they now had, and might exercise whenever they thought proper. But admitting that Congress had authority to manumit the slaves in America, and were disposed to exercise it, would the Southern States acquiesce in such a measure without a struggle? Would the citizens of that country tamely suffer their property to be torn from them? Would even the citizens of the other States, which did not possess this property, desire to have all the slaves let loose upon them? Would not such a step be injurious even to the slaves themselves? It was well known that they were an indolent people, improvident, averse to labor: when emancipated, they would either starve or plunder. Nothing was a stronger proof of the absurdity of emancipation than the fanciful schemes which the friends to the measure had suggested; one was, to ship them out of the country, and colonize them in some foreign region. This plan admitted that it would be dangerous to retain them within the United States after they were manumitted: but surely it would be inconsistent with humanity to banish these people to a remote country, and to expel them from their native soil, and from places to which they had a local attachment. It would be no less repugnant to the principles of freedom, not to allow them to remain here, if they desired it. How could they be called freemen, if they were, against their consent, to be expelled from the country? Thus did the advocates for emancipation acknowledge that the blacks, when liberated, ought not to remain here to stain the blood of the whites by a mixture of the races.

Another plan was to liberate all those who should be born after a certain limited period. Such a scheme would produce this very extraordinary phenomenon, that the mother would be a slave and her child would be free. These young emancipated negroes, by associating with their enslaved parents, would participate in all the debasements which slavery is said to occasion. But allowing that a practicable scheme of general emancipation could be devised, there can be no doubt that the two races would still remain distinct. It is known, from experience, that the whites had such an idea of their superiority over the blacks, that they never even associated with them; even the warmest friends to the blacks kept them at a distance, and rejected all intercourse with them. Could any instance be quoted of their intermarrying; the Quakers asserted that nature made all men equal, and that the difference of color should not place negroes on a worse footing in society than the whites; but had any of them ever married a negro, or would any of them suffer their children to mix their blood with that of a black? They would view with abhorrence such an alliance.

Mr. S. then read some extracts from Mr. Jefferson's Notes on Virginia, proving that negroes were by nature an inferior race of beings; and that the whites would always feel a repugnance at mixing their blood with that of the blacks. Thus, he proceeded, that respectable author, who was desirous of countenancing emancipation, was, on a consideration of the subject, induced candidly to avow that the difficulties appeared insurmountable. The friends to manumission had said, that by prohibiting the further importation of slaves, and by liberating those born after a certain period, a gradual emancipation might take place, and that in process of time the very color would be extinct, and there would be none but whites. He was at a loss to learn how that consequence would result. If the blacks did not intermarry with the whites, they would remain black to the end of time; for it was not contended that liberating them would whitewash them; if they would intermarry with the whites, then the white race would be extinct, and the American people would be all of the mulatto breed. In whatever light, therefore, the subject was viewed, the folly of emancipation was manifest. He trusted these considerations would prevent any further application to Congress on this point, and would so far have weight with the committee as to reject the clause altogether, or at least to declare, in plain terms, that Congress has no right whatever to manumit the slaves of this country.

Various objections, said he, had at different times been alleged against the abominable practice, as it had been called, of one man exercising dominion over another; but slavery was no new thing in the world. The Romans, the Greeks, and other nations of antiquity, held slaves at the time Christianity first dawned on society, and the professors of its mild doctrines never preached against it. [Here Mr. S. read a quotation from the Roman and Grecian History, and from some accounts of the government and manners of the people of Africa, before they had any knowledge of the African traders, from which it appeared that slavery was not disapproved of by the Apostles when they went about diffusing the principles of Christianity; and that it was not owing to the African trade, as had been alleged, that the people of Africa made war on each other.]

Another objection against slavery was, that the number of slaves in the Southern States weakened that part of the Union, and in case of invasion would require a greater force to protect it. Negroes, it was said, would not fight; but he would ask whether it was owing to their being black or to their being slaves? if to their being black, then unquestionably emancipating them would not remedy the evil, for they would still remain black; if it was owing to their being slaves, he denied the position: for it was an undeniable truth, that in many countries slaves made excellent soldiers. In Russia, Hungary, Poland, peasants were slaves, and yet were brave troops. In Scotland, not many years ago, the Highland peasants were absolute slaves to their lairds, and they were renowned for their bravery. The Turks were as much enslaved as the negroes—their property and lives were at the absolute disposal of the Sultan, yet they fought with undaunted courage. Many other instances might be quoted, but those would suffice to refute the fact. Had experience proved that the negroes would not make good soldiers? He did not assert that they would, but they had never been tried; discipline was every thing; white militia made but indifferent soldiers before they were disciplined. It was well known that according to the present art of war, a soldier was a mere machine, and he did not see why a black machine was not as good as a white one; in one respect the black troops would have the advantage in appearing more horrible in the eyes of the enemy. But admitting that they would not fight, to what would the argument lead? Undoubtedly to show that the Quakers, Moravians, and all the non-resisting and non-fighting sects, constitute the weakness of the country. Did they contribute to strengthen the country against invasion by staying at home and joining the invader as soon as he was successful? But they furnished money, he should be told, and paid substitutes; and did not the slaves, by increasing the agriculture of the country, add to its wealth, and thereby increase its strength? Did they not moreover perform many laborious services in the camp and in the field, assist in transporting baggage, conveying artillery, throwing up fortifications, and thus increase the numbers in the ranks by supplying their places in these services? Nor was it necessary that every part of the empire should furnish fighting men; one part supplied men, another money; one part was strong in population, another in valuable exports, which added to the opulence of the whole. Great Britain obtained no soldiers from her East and West India settlements, were they therefore useless? She was obliged to send troops to protect them, but their valuable trade furnished her with means of paying those troops.

Another objection was that the public opinion was against slavery. How did that appear? Were there any petitions on the subject excepting that from the Pennsylvania Society and a few Quakers? And were they to judge for the whole Continent? Were the citizens of the Northern and Eastern States to dictate to Congress on a measure in which the Southern States were so deeply interested? There were no petitions against slavery from the Southern States, and they were the only proper judges of what was for their interest. The toleration of slavery in the several States was a matter of internal regulation and policy, in which each State had a right to do as she pleased, and no other State had any right to intermeddle with her policy or laws. If the citizens of the Northern States were displeased with the toleration of slavery in the Southern States, the latter were equally disgusted with some things tolerated in the former.

He had mentioned on a former occasion the dangerous tenets and pernicious practices of the sect of Shaking Quakers, who preached against matrimony, and whose doctrine and example, if they prevailed, would either depopulate the United States, or people it with a spurious race. However the people of South Carolina reprobated the gross and immoral conduct of these Shakers, they had not petitioned Congress to expel them from the Continent, though they thought such a measure would be serviceable to the United States.

The Legislature of South Carolina had prohibited theatrical representations, deeming them improper; but they did not trouble Congress with an application to abolish them in New York and Philadelphia. The Southern citizens might also consider the toleration of Quakers as an injury to the community, because in time of war they would not defend their country from the enemy, and in time of peace they were interfering in the concerns of others, and doing every thing in their power to excite the slaves in the Southern States to insurrection; notwithstanding which, the people of those States had not required the assistance of Congress to exterminate the Quakers.

But he could not help observing, that this squeamishness was very extraordinary at this time. The Northern States knew that the Southern States had slaves before they confederated with them. If they had such an abhorrence for slavery, why, said Mr. S., did they not cast us off and reject our alliance? The truth was, that the best informed part of the citizens of the Northern States knew that slavery was so ingrafted into the policy of the Southern States, that it could not be eradicated without tearing up by the roots their happiness, tranquillity, and prosperity; that if it were an evil, it was one for which there was no remedy, and therefore, like wise men, they acquiesced in it. We, on the other hand, knew that the Quaker doctrines had taken such deep root in some of the States, that all resistance to them must be useless; we therefore made a compromise on both sides—we took each other, with our mutual bad habits and respective evils, for better, for worse; the Northern States adopted us with our slaves, and we adopted them with their Quakers. There was then an implied compact between the Northern and Southern people that no step should be taken to injure the property of the latter, or to disturb their tranquillity. It was therefore with great pain that he viewed the anxiety of some of the members to pay such uncommon respect to the memorialists, as even to set aside the common rules of proceeding, and attempt to commit the memorials the very day they were presented, though the Southern members had solicited one day's delay. Such proceedings had justly raised an alarm in the minds of himself and his Southern colleagues; and feeling that alarm, they would have acted a dishonorable part to their constituents had they not expressed themselves with that warmth and solicitude which some gentlemen had disapproved.

A proper consideration of this business must convince every candid mind that emancipation would be attended with one or other of these consequences: either that a mixture of the races would degenerate the whites, without improving the blacks, or that it would create two separate classes of people in the community, involved in inveterate hostility, which would terminate in the massacre and extirpation of one or the other, as the Moors were expelled from Spain, and the Danes from England. The negroes would not be benefited by it; free negroes never improve in talents, never grow rich, and continue to associate with the people of their own color. This is owing either to the natural aversion the whites entertain towards them, and an opinion of the superiority of their race, or to the natural attachment the blacks have to those of their own color; in either case it proves that they will, after manumission, continue a distinct people, and have separate interests. The author already quoted has proved that they are an inferior race even to the Indians.

After the last war, a number of negroes which had been stolen from the Southern States, and carried to England, either quitted the persons who had carried them there, or were abandoned by them. Unable to provide for themselves, and rejected from the society of the common people of England, they were begging about the streets of London in great numbers; they supplicated captains of vessels to carry them back to their owners in America, preferring slavery there to freedom in England. Many of them were shipped to Africa by the humanity of the English, and were either butchered or made slaves of by their savage countrymen, or reshipped for sale to the plantations.

But some persons have been of opinion, that if the further importation of slaves could be prohibited, there would be a gradual extinction of the species. Having shown the absurdity of liberating the postnati without extending it to all the slaves old and young, and the great absurdity and even impracticability of extending it to all, I shall say a few words with regard to the extinction. That would be impossible, because they increase; to occasion an extinction, Congress must prohibit all intercourse between the sexes; this would be an act of humanity they would not thank us for, nor would they be persuaded that it was for their own good; or Congress must, like Herod, order all the children to be put to death as soon as born. If, then, nothing but evil would result from emancipation, under the existing circumstances of the country, why should Congress stir at all in the business, or give any countenance to such dangerous applications? We have been told that the Government ought to manifest a disposition inimical to this practice which the people reprobate. If some citizens, from misinformation and ignorance, have imbibed prejudices against the Southern States, if ill-intentioned authors have related false facts, and gross misrepresentations tending to traduce the character of a whole State, and to mislead the citizens of other States, is that a sufficient reason why a large territory is to be depopulated, merely to gratify the wish of some misinformed individuals? But what have the citizens of the other States to do with our slaves? Have they any right to interfere with our internal policy?

This is not an object of general concern, for I have already proved that it does not weaken the Union; but admit that it did, will the abolition of slavery strengthen South Carolina? It can only be cultivated by slaves; the climate, the nature of the soil, ancient habits, forbid the whites from performing the labor. Experience convinces us of the truth of this. Great Britain made every attempt to settle Georgia by whites alone, and failed, and was compelled at length to introduce slaves; after which that State increased very rapidly in opulence and importance. If the slaves are emancipated, they will not remain in that country; remove the cultivators of the soil, and the whole of the low country, all the fertile rice and indigo swamps will be deserted, and become a wilderness. What, then, becomes of its strength? Will such a scheme increase it? Instead of increasing the population of the whites, there will be no whites at all. If the low country is deserted, where will be the commerce, the valuable exports of that country, the large revenue raised from its imports and from the consumption of the rich planters? In a short time, the Northern and Eastern States will supply us with their manufactures; if you depopulate the rich low country of South Carolina and Georgia, you will give us a blow which will immediately recoil on yourselves. Suppose there are one hundred and forty thousand slaves in those States, which require annually five yards of cloth each, making seven hundred thousand yards at half a dollar a yard, this makes three hundred and fifty thousand dollars, besides the articles of linen, flannel, Osnaburgh, blankets, molasses, sugar, and rum, for the use of the negroes; now, either the Eastern and Middle States will supply us with all these articles, or they will receive the benefit of the impost on them if they are imported from foreign countries. Without the rice swamps of Carolina, Charleston would decay, so would the commerce of that city; this would injure the back country. If you injure the Southern States, the injury would reach our Northern and Eastern brethren; for the States are links of one chain; if we break one, the whole must fall to pieces. Thus it is manifest, that in proportion to the increase of our agriculture will our wealth be increased; the increase of which will augment that of our sister States, which will either supply us with their commodities, or raise a large revenue upon us, or be the carriers of our produce to foreign markets.

It has been said, that the toleration of slavery brings down reproach on America. It only brings reproach on those who tolerate it, and we are ready to bear our share. We know that none but prejudiced and uncandid persons, who have hastily considered the subject, and are ignorant of the real situation of the Southern States, throw out these insinuations. We found slavery ingrafted in the very policy of the country when we were born, and we are persuaded of the impolicy of removing it; if it be a moral evil, it is like many others which exist in all civilized countries, and which the world quietly submit to. Humanity has been a topic of declamation on this subject: that sentiment has different operations on different individuals, and he had it in his power to show, that humanity first gave origin to the transportation of slaves from Africa into America. Bartholomew de las Casas, Bishop of Chiapa, a Spaniard renowned for his humanity and virtues, in order to save the Indians in South America from slavery, prevailed on his monarch to substitute Africans, which were accordingly purchased on the coast of Africa, and shipped to the Spanish colonies to work in the mines: this appears in Robertson's History of America, which Mr. S. quoted. At this day, the Spaniards give considerable encouragement to the transportation of slaves into their islands. Mr. S. read the edict for that purpose.

Another objection is, that slavery vitiates and debases the mind of the owner of this sort of property. Where, he asked, is the proof of this allegation? Do the citizens of the Southern States exhibit more ferociousness in their manners, more barbarity in their dispositions, than those of the other States? Are crimes more frequently committed there? A proof of the absurdity of this charge may be found in the writings of those who wish to disseminate this mischievous idea, and yet, in their relations of facts, they themselves contradict it. They lay down general principles, which they take upon credit from others, or which they publish with sinister views, and when they enter into a detail of the history of those States, they overset their own doctrines. Thus, one writer tells us, that the Southern citizen, who is educated in principles of superiority to the slaves which surround him, has no idea of government, obedience, and good order, till he mingles with the hardy and free-spirited yeomanry of the North, and that after mixing with them, he will return home with his mind more enlarged, his views more liberalized, and his affections rectified, and he becomes a more generous friend to the rights of human nature. But hear what the Eastern traveller is to learn by visiting the enslaved regions of the South. He will see, says the same writer, immediately after, industry crowned with affluence, independence, hospitality, liberality of manners; and, notwithstanding the prevalence of domestic slavery, he will find the noblest sentiments of freedom and independence to predominate; he will extol their enterprise, art, and ingenuity, and will reflect that nature is wise, and that Providence in the distribution of its favors is not capricious. Take another striking instance of this contradiction from Morse's Geography. He says, that there are more slaves than free persons in South Carolina, and mentions the mischievous influence of slavery on their manners, which, he observes, by exempting them from the necessity of labor, leads to luxury, dissipation, and extravagance, and savors too much of a haughty, supercilious behavior; that the inhabitants want that enterprise and perseverance which are necessary for the attainment of the arts and sciences; that they have few motives to enterprise, and too generally rest contented with barely knowledge enough to transact the common affairs of life. Now, for the author's proofs: they are contained in these words:

"Many of the inhabitants spare no pains nor expense in giving the highest polish of education to their children; literature has begun to flourish since the peace; several flourishing academies and colleges have been established; the ladies have an engaging softness and delicacy in their manners; theatrical exhibitions have been prohibited by law; gaming of all kinds is more discountenanced than in any of the Southern States; all denominations of religion are on an equal footing; commerce is flourishing; economy is becoming more fashionable, and science begins to spread her salutary influence among the citizens."

But was South Carolina, at the commencement of the war, with all her slaves, backward in her resistance to Great Britain? View the conduct of her citizens, their zeal and ardor in the cause of liberty; their labor at Fort Sullivan. Are crimes more frequent in that country than in the other States? Are there more executions? I believe there have been as few as in any part of the Continent, and those which have taken place have been generally of emigrant convicts, or fugitive wheel-barrow men; he would be bold to assert that in no State on the Continent is there more order, sobriety, and obedience to good government; more industry and frugality; nor is there any trace of the influence of slavery on the character of her citizens.

The French, so far from curbing and cramping the African trade with needless regulations, give large premiums upon every negro landed on their islands; in some instances as much as two hundred livres per head. Is that nation more debased than others? Are they not a polished people, sensible of the rights of mankind, and actuated by proper sentiments of humanity? The Spaniards encourage slavery; they are people of the nicest honor, proverbially so. The Romans and Greeks had slaves, and are not their glorious achievements held up as excitements to great and magnanimous actions? Sparta teemed with slaves at the time of her greatest fame as a valiant Republic. The absolute power of the Lacedæmonians over the Helotes is frequently spoken of by the ancient writers; they were not only the slaves of the Commonwealth, but of every individual; they could not be set at liberty, neither could they be sold; hence arose a saying, that a free man at Sparta was most a free man, and a slave most a slave.

The system of the Roman policy with regard to slavery was still more severe. Slaves were not even under the protection of the laws; they were considered as things, inter res. A master, merely from caprice, might torture, dismember, and even murder his slave. If a slave did any damage exceeding his value, he was delivered to the person injured, who did with him what he pleased. Yet these slaves were of the same color as their masters, and equal to them in mental faculties; many of them were men of great learning, philosophers, poets, &c. Much had been said of the cruel treatment of slaves in the West Indies and the Southern States; with respect to the latter, he denied the fact from experience, and accurate information, and believed in his conscience that the slaves in South Carolina were a happier people than the lower order of whites in many countries he had visited. With regard to the West Indies, Lord Rodney and Admiral Barrington had both declared, that they had spent some time in the West Indies, and that they had never heard of a negro being cruelly treated; that they had often spoken of their happiness in high terms, declaring that they should rejoice exceedingly if the English day laborer was half as happy. Some have said that slavery is unnecessary; so far from it, that several essential manufactures depended on it. Indigo, cochineal, and various other dyeing materials, which are the produce of the West Indies, could only be raised by slaves; the great staple commodities of the South would be annihilated without the labor of slaves. It is well known that when the African slaves were brought to the coast for sale, it was customary to put to death all those who were not sold; the abolition of the slave trade would therefore cause the massacre of the people.

The cruel mode of transportation was another motive to this abolition; but was it to be presumed that the merchants would so far attend to their own interests as to preserve the lives and the health of the slaves on the passage. All voyages must be attended with inconveniencies, and those from Africa to America not more than others. As to their confinement on board, it was no more than necessary; as to the smallness of space allotted them, it was more than was allotted to soldiers in a camp; for the measurement of cubical air breathed by the Africans, compared with that of soldiers in a camp, was in favor of the former as thirty to seventeen; it was full as much as was allotted in ships of war to seamen, who, by the laws of England, were frequently on their return to their families, after a long and dangerous voyage, seized by violence, hurried away by a press-gang, and forced on another voyage more tedious and perilous than the first, to a hot and sickly climate, where several hundreds of them were stowed away in the hold of a vessel. In cases of disobedience, the captain had a right, for slight offences, to inflict on them corporal punishment without the intervention of a court-martial, and in other cases they are punishable by very severe laws, executed by martial courts, established for that purpose. The same may be observed of the soldiers, who were frequently flogged severely for trifling offences; instances have been known of their being put under the care of a surgeon, after receiving a small part of the intended flagellation, to refit them for the residue.

Having thus removed the force of the observations which have been advanced against the toleration of slavery, by a misguided and misinformed humanity, I shall only add, that I disapprove of the whole of the report; because it either states some power sufficiently expressed in the constitution, which is unnecessary, or it sets forth some power which I am clear Congress do not possess. The concluding paragraph is an extraordinary one. In what mode are the memorialists to be informed of our humane dispositions? Are we to send a special committee to inform them? Or is the Speaker to write them a letter, or the Sergeant-at-Arms with the mace to wait on them? In short, Mr. Chairman, the whole of this business has been wrong from beginning to end, and as one false step generally leads to others, so has the hasty commitment of these memorials involved us in all this confusion and embarrassment. I hope, therefore, if any kind of report is agreed to, it will be something like that proposed by my colleague.

The committee rose, and reported progress.