Thursday, May 28.
Western Lands.
The House, on motion of Mr. Scott, went into a Committee of the Whole on the State of the Union, for the purpose of considering certain resolutions he had prepared respecting the disposal of the land in the Western Territory. Mr. Trumbull in the chair.
Mr. Scott presumed there was little need of argument to prove to the Committee the necessity of taking speedy measures with respect to the unsettled lands in the Western Territory. The dissolution of the Board of Treasury, and the death of the late Geographer of the United States, are adventitious circumstances, which tend to increase the necessity. Gentlemen are acquainted with the number of sales which have been made to some of the citizens of the United States; they consequently know that the United States are under an obligation to complete the surveys of those lands which they have made sale of. They know, also, that until this is done, they cannot receive a farthing of the millions of dollars due on those contracts; they will not only be unable to receive the principal, but will be paying interest for the same. Besides this, there are other considerations for putting the business on a new footing. The mode hitherto pursued of selling lands has been very expensive to the United States. Perhaps, on inquiry, we shall find, that the specie it has cost us in getting the land surveyed and sales completed, would have purchased as many certificates as we get for the sale of the land. The lands are also proposed to be sold in too great quantities. It is very difficult to form a company for the purchase of a million acres. It ought to be sold in small quantities, to make the sales more certain and numerous; and, consequently, increase the public income. On this principle, it will be well to open a land office, and grant the soil in such quantities as may suit the applications. By this means more may be expected for the purchase, than when it is struck off, at a wholesale price, by the million acres; and in this way the land office will be conducted without expense, which will be fixed on the purchaser, so that the whole money the lands may bring will come into the treasury without deduction.
There are other considerations why a land office should be opened for the sale of that territory in the way just mentioned. There are, at this moment, a great number of people on the ground, who are willing to acquire by purchase a right to the soil they are seated upon. Allured by its fertility, the agreeableness of the climate, and the prospect of future ease to themselves and families, they would not seek a change. Kentucky, already full, at least there are no more valuable lands to be got there with a clear title, can receive no more emigrants. They, therefore, turn their wishful eyes upon the lands of the Union. They hope to get them of Congress upon as good terms as they can procure them of the speculators. What will these men think, who have placed themselves on a vacant spot, anxiously waiting its disposition by the Government, to find their pre-emption right engrossed by the purchaser of a million of acres? Will they expose themselves to be preyed upon by these men? They might submit to this, but they have other offers.
There are seven thousand souls waiting for lands; they will have them here or elsewhere; but there is some danger, if they cannot be accommodated within the boundaries of the United States, they will do one of two things: either move into the Spanish territory, where they are not altogether uninvited, and become an accession of power to a foreign nation, forming to us a dangerous frontier; or they will take this course, move on the United States territory, and take possession without your leave. What then will be the case? They will not pay you money. Will you then raise a force to drive them off? That has been tried: troops were raised, and sent under General Harmer, to effect that purpose. They burnt the cabins, broke down the fences, and tore up the potato patches; but three hours after the troops were gone, these people returned again, repaired the damage, and are now settled upon the lands in open defiance of the authority of the Union. But, nevertheless, they are willing to pay an equitable price for those lands; and if they may be indulged with a pre-emption to the purchase, no men will be better friends to the Government. They went on the ground with an intention of purchasing, and are kept there by a hope that the Government will see their interest, and dispose of the land upon reasonable terms. But if you do not listen to their request, if you neglect or despise their offers, and they prove too weak to resist the omnipotent arm of Government, they will have recourse to a neighboring Power for protection. Hopes of that protection are now held out to them; it is my duty to inform you of the fact. They will be led to think their interest is separate from yours on the Atlantic shores. It will take prudent management to prevent the fatal effects of a commotion in that country. One of the most unhappy things we could do, would be to refuse selling those lands in less quantities than by the million of acres: it would certainly be a cause of disgust, if not of separation. If the object was to prevent the settlement of the country, it would be another thing; but that cannot be accomplished, it is not in the power of any force on earth to prevent the increase of the population now begun; it is therefore much better that we should incline them to friendship, than oblige them to become our enemies. The emigrants who reach the Western country will not stop until they find a place where they can securely seat themselves. Your lands first offer: their fertility and agreeableness will tempt them to pitch there; but to secure them, they must have a well-grounded hope that the lands they cultivate may become their own. To encourage this, you must open that territory to them, and let them have lands for pay. You must go further, you must open the land office in that country, because it will be impossible for the indigent persons to travel for an office-right. You can then establish a government among them, and derive advantages from them which are now totally lost. They wish for your government and laws, and will be gratified with the indulgence; but they wish also to acquire property under them; they wish for your lands, and what good reason can be offered to warrant a denial? If they cannot get your land, they must go further, and obtain it of foreigners, who are desirous of having them at any rate, who will give them lands without pay.
These observations are sufficient, no doubt, to evince the necessity of doing something with respect to the Western territory, and something different from what has hitherto been done. In order that the Committee may have a full view of my ideas, I will read the plan I have in my hand, upon which a law may be founded.
He here read a previous resolution, to be followed by the plan, which was to this effect:
Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that an act of Congress ought to pass for establishing and regulating a land-office, for the sale of the vacant and unappropriated land in the Western territory.
[Here, by way of separate resolutions, followed in detail the constituent parts of this office, and the routine in which the business should be conducted, directing the expense of the office to be supported by the fees payable before the warrants and patents were delivered.]
Mr. Clymer did not believe the committee were prepared for a decision at this time. He considered the subject to be as intricate and difficult as it was interesting; and therefore hoped full time would be given for investigation. Many persons had purchased large quantities of lands of the late Congress, with a view to sell them out in small lots, to accommodate the people who are inclined to settle upon them. If Congress now open a land office for the sale of small quantities, it will no doubt overcast the prospect of advantage which induced the former, and may induce future purchasers to apply for large grants. These observations, and others which would readily occur to every gentleman, would satisfy the committee that they ought not to precipitate the business. For this reason, he moved the rising of the committee.
Mr. Madison had no objection to the rising of the committee, as the means of obtaining information; but he thought the business deserving of the earliest attention. The clear and full manner in which the gentleman from Pennsylvania had opened the subject to the view of the committee, left no doubt on his mind of the propriety of taking some early measures to accomplish the business in the manner suggested by that gentleman. The facts and intelligence mentioned were too important to be passed lightly over. He should, for the present, agree to rise, but hoped the subject would be resumed in the House.
The question was taken on the first resolution moved by Mr. Scott, and passed in the affirmative; the others remaining on the table.
The committee then rose and reported progress.
Friday, June 5.
Admission of Rhode Island into the Union.
Mr. Benson presented for consideration, the resolution which he yesterday gave notice of his intention of introducing in relation to the admission of Rhode Island into the Union, and moved that the House immediately go into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, for the purpose of discussing his proposition.
The resolution is in the following words:
The Congress of the United States do resolve and declare it to be their most earnest desire, that the Legislature of the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, do recommend to the people of that State to choose delegates to meet in convention and to whom the constitution of the United States is to be submitted, conformably to the unanimous resolution of the United States in Congress assembled, of the 28th of September, 1787.
Mr. Page.—I think of Rhode Island as the worthy gentleman from New York does; but, as a member of Congress, I doubt the propriety of this body interfering in the business. If I put myself, for a moment, into the situation of a citizen of a State that has refused to accede to the constitution of the United States, I must admit that I should watch your actions with a jealous eye; I should be apprehensive of undue influence, if I were to see you throw your weight into the scale. But what occasion is there for adopting such a resolution? Are gentlemen afraid to leave them to their own unbiased judgment? For my part I am not: it will demonstrate the goodness of the constitution, if it be adopted upon mature consideration, without any aid but its own intrinsic value. As to amendments, when we come to consider of them, I dare say they will be such as to make the constitution more agreeable; but, for the present, I think it improper to have any thing to do with the gentleman's motion; I hope he may be prevailed upon to withdraw it; he has done his duty by bringing it forward; but if it does not meet the approbation of the House, it will be a useless waste of time to give it any further discussion. The gentleman has shown sufficiently his attachment to the Federal Government, by the earnestness he shows to have it adopted throughout the United States. But, in addition to this, let him consider where such measures may lead us. Because the Legislature of Rhode Island have neglected or refused to submit the consideration of the constitution to a convention, we are to recommend it, and express a most earnest desire that they will comply. But suppose they decline doing what you require, what is next to be done? I hope gentlemen will hesitate before they go any further. I think we should be employed more in the line of our duty, by attending to the interests of our constituents, and completing the organization of a Government they ordered, than to spend our time about business which is not within our powers. Why should we interfere with the concerns of our sister States who have not yet joined the new Government? I trust the gentleman will see the impropriety of his motion, and agree to withdraw it.
Mr. Smith, (of South Carolina.)—I think we ought to go into committee, and hear what the gentleman has to say on the subject. Though I must acknowledge I am at present against the adoption of the resolution he has proposed; yet it is possible, when he has stated his reasons, and pointed out the necessity of it, that I may alter my opinion; but I wonder why the gentleman has omitted North Carolina.
Mr. Sherman.—I think Rhode Island stands in a different situation from North Carolina. When this constitution was formed in the convention, North Carolina was represented there; she, as well as the adopting States, submitted that instrument to a convention of the people; but not having adopted it, she has again called a convention, and is proceeding to reconsider it as fast as convenient; so that such a request as is now proposed would be unnecessary with respect to them. As Rhode Island did not send members to the first convention, there was a delicacy in transmitting the proceedings to them, and Congress could not, perhaps, apply to them with the same propriety as to another. But all we are now to consider, I believe, is, that we invite the State of Rhode Island to join our confederacy; what will be the effect of such a measure we cannot tell till we try it.
Mr. Madison.—I believe, Mr. Speaker, there are cases in which it is prudent to avoid coming to a decision at all, and cases where it is desirable to evade debate; if there were not cases of this kind, it would be unnecessary to guard our discussions with the previous question.[28] My idea on the subject now before the House is, that it would be improper in this body to expose themselves to have such a proposition rejected by the Legislature of the State of Rhode Island. It would likewise be improper to express a desire on an occasion where a free agency ought to be employed, which would carry with it all the force of a command. How far this is contemplated on the present occasion, I cannot tell; but I heartily wish that as little may be said about it as possible. I conceive this to be one of the cases to which the previous question is applicable; and, if the gentleman means to call the House to a direct decision on this motion, I shall step between, and interpose the previous question.
Mr. Ames.—I am against the previous question being taken, because I wish the House to consider the motion made by the gentleman from New York; it is admitted to be a question of considerable importance; if it is, it ought to be considered; otherwise, we are shutting the door on information, and putting it out of our power to ascertain the propriety or impropriety of the motion.
I should be glad to know if any gentleman contemplates the State of Rhode Island dissevered from the Union; a maritime State, situated in the most convenient manner for the purpose of smuggling, and defrauding our revenue. Surely, a moment's reflection will induce the House to take measures to secure this object. Do gentlemen imagine that State will join the Union? If they do, what is the injury arising from the adoption of the resolution intended to be submitted to the committee? Is there any impropriety in desiring them to consider a question which they have not yet decided? It has been suggested by an honorable gentleman, that this desire will operate as a demand. If a wish of Congress can bring them into the Union, why should we decline to express such a wish?
The previous question being insisted upon, was put—"Shall the main question be now put?" and it was determined in the negative. Adjourned.