Friday, February 12.
State Balances.
Mr. Thomas called up his motion respecting State Balances, which is as follows:
"Resolved, That a committee be appointed to inquire into the expediency of extinguishing the claims of the United States for certain balances, which, by the Commissioners appointed to settle the accounts between the United States and the individual States, were reported to be due from several of the States to the United States, and that the said committee have leave to report by bill or otherwise."
Mr. Bayard hoped the resolution would prevail. The debtor States, not satisfied with the settlement made by the Board of Commissioners, had asked for information respecting the grounds on which it had been made. The information had been imperiously refused. In his opinion it was but right, if the debtor States did not dispute the validity of the debts due to the creditor States, that they should agree to expunge the claims against the debtor States. Indeed, he had been assured that the commission was not instituted with a view of sustaining any charges against the debtor States, but for ascertaining the amount due to the creditor States, and funding them; and he believed it had been so understood at the time. This was an affair not determinable by the ordinary rules applied to individual cases. Many of the States, not expecting a settlement, had kept no accounts or vouchers; and however great the supplies they contributed under such circumstances, they received no credits for them; while those States which had been most careful in the preservation of vouchers, shared a different and a better fate.
Mr. B. believed it was the true policy of the creditor States to agree to the extinguishment of these balances. He believed they never could be paid, because no State allowed them to be due. They would not, therefore, be paid voluntarily; and he knew of no force in the United States to compel payment. Why, then, keep up a source of irritation, which could do no possible good, and which could only tend to repel some States from that constitution, which we all ought to endeavor to make the object of general affection?
Mr. Southard said, he had yet heard no reason that convinced him that the resolution offered was just or proper. It would be recollected that this contract was made under the confederation. In the establishment of our independence, great and various exertions had been made. In the contributions made, great inequalities took place, which were unavoidable. Generally, where the war existed, the States became creditor States. It was just that those States which had contributed more than their share should be repaid, and that those who had paid less should make up the deficiency. If the debtor States were not to pay their balances, why settle the accounts? To relinquish the payment would be, in his opinion, not only unjust but unconstitutional. The constitution says, "All debts contracted, and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this constitution, shall be as valid against the United States, under this constitution as under the Confederation;" and the present Government had recognized those debts as just. The gentleman from Delaware says, the settlement is not just. But this was barely the suggestion of his own mind. To sustain it, he ought to have shown its defects; but this he had not done.
Mr. Mitchill was in favor of the resolution, as he believed a refusal to adopt it would be attended with unpleasant sensations. He judged so from an historical review of the business. The several States had associated together for their common defence, and, in the eye of equity, whatever that defence required, should constitute a common charge. The accounts of expenses thus incurred were not settled till the new Government was established. That Government fixed the mode of settlement; it appointed a board of referees, to report the debts and credits of the respective States. In this report, it was the fortune of certain States, notwithstanding the greatness of their contributions, to be reported debtor States. These States became debtors from the independent spirit with which they asserted their sovereign rights. Not relying on the general contributions, they furnished great supplies without making any charge to the Union; by exerting all their strength, they paid as they went, and preserved no vouchers of what they paid. This, he averred, was the case as to the State which he had the honor in part to represent; a State as willing as able to contribute, and which did contribute to a great extent; but which had neglected to preserve her vouchers, the preservation of which would have made her a creditor State. He believed, therefore, that in equity, the States were not bound to pay these balances. But to this it is replied, the award is final. He would not agree to that; he denied it. Besides, there was a want of coercive power in the United States to enforce those demands. From this consideration alone, we ought to proceed with lenity, and endeavor to make the settlement a peaceable one. As in other circumstances, we ought to make a virtue of necessity.
Mr. S. Smith said, he did not rise to take any part in the debate, but in order to bring the subject directly before the committee. To do which, he moved so to amend the resolution as to make it read, "Resolved, That it is expedient to extinguish the claims," &c.
Mr. Lowndes hoped the amendment would not be agreed to. He did not see the expediency of volunteering a relinquishment of the claims established against several of the States. The amendment was calculated to take the committee by surprise. The original resolution went merely to consider the expediency of a relinquishment; the amendment involved the principle itself.
Mr. Hill was desirous the amendment should not be made, not from any indisposition himself to agree to it, but from a regard to the sentiments of other gentlemen. Even if it was ascertained that these debts had arisen on a just consideration, yet, in his opinion, they ought to be extinguished, from the principle that, in our Government, whatever hazarded the harmony of the Union, ought to be avoided. Precedents were not wanting in which sacrifices were made to this principle. He alluded to the quieting the claims under Connecticut rights. But, whatever might be the general ideas on this subject elsewhere, he knew not a man in North Carolina, who did not believe the adjustment iniquitous. To show the committee how the citizens of that State felt, he would state a case that had occurred before the Board of Commissioners. Two claims had been made, both for the same amount and the same description of supplies, one on one side and one on the other side, of Pedee River; one in North, and the other in South Carolina; and, in one case, seven shillings had been allowed, and in the other, only sixpence for the bushel of wheat. The business generally was entitled to the attention of Congress. It had, in fact, already been attended to at different times. New York had extinguished eight hundred thousand dollars of her balance under certain provisions applied to her case.
Mr. Bacon said, if the object of the motion was to go into a new liquidation of the old accounts between the United States and the several States, it would not only take up every day of the present session, but the work would be left unfinished for our successors. These debts had been incurred in a common cause, in which each State was equally interested, and towards which each State was bound equally to contribute. When Congress made requisitions on this principle, they were accompanied by a promise that there should be a final liquidation. This liquidation was made; the settlement was complete. But this settlement is now objected to, and what is to be done? Why we must annul the contract. This might satisfy some of the States, but he was sure it would dissatisfy others. He saw, therefore, no end to be answered by the motion. We must either set aside all that had been done, and begin de novo, to which this body is incompetent, or rest satisfied with what is already done.
Mr. R. Williams observed, that since he had held a seat in the House, this subject had been almost every session called up. The more he had heard it discussed, the more he became convinced of the necessity of getting it out of the way. He found that whenever it was brought up, all was imagination. One State contended that it had contributed largely, and another, that its exertions had not been surpassed.
We are asked, why relinquish these balances before we are solicited by the States? He would reply that North Carolina never had recognized the debt, and, in his opinion, never would apply for its extinguishment. He was in favor of the amendment, because the principle ought to be decided here, and not in a select committee. What, indeed, could such committee report? There were no vouchers or books whereon the settlement had been made to be got at. All they could do, then, would be to report the balances alleged to be due, which any member could at any time learn.
It seemed almost useless to go into arguments to show the injustice of the claim, and of consequence, the justice of the resolution. It had been justly said, that those States which had contributed the most, had, by the report of the Commissioners, the most to pay; and this was peculiarly so with the State of North Carolina.
Mr. W. had forborne to dwell on the injustice of these demands. But were he to enter on that branch of the discussion, he should say that the very act of destroying all the vouchers was of itself sufficient to justify any suspicion. He should say, that for what, in some States, there had been an allowance of one hundred pounds, North Carolina had not been allowed twenty shillings. Could, then, gentlemen talk of moral obligation, and say that this was a just debt?
Mr. T. Morris said, it was contended that the accounts should be opened anew and re-examined. The fears, therefore, of the gentleman from Massachusetts, were entirely visionary. The resolution was a simple one. It proposes to inquire into the expediency of doing away these debts. The amendment goes to determine the principle here. He thought it proper the principle should be settled here. But gentlemen say they want information. If so, after the amendment is agreed to, they may move for a postponement. If the amendment were carried, he would himself move a postponement.
It had been said that New York had had eight hundred thousand dollars of her debt remitted by the United States. But how did the case really stand? New York had availed herself of the act of Congress, not because she acknowledged the debt to be just, but because she preferred doing something to remaining in the situation towards the United States in which she stood. It was strange, then, to hear gentlemen say that New York had been favored. What was the fact? North Carolina, according to the gentleman, had not, and would not, pay one cent; and New York had discharged a greater sum than was due by all the other debtor States, with the exception of Delaware. She was, therefore, instead of being favored, placed in a worse situation than any other State. It was from the existence of this state of things that he wished a final decision to be made this session. New York having agreed to make certain payments to the United States, it was important to her to know whether the United States meant to enforce payment by the other States. Her situation would be truly unfortunate, if after agreeing to pay, the United States suffered her claims against the other States to sleep. She would not only have to pay her quota of the debts, but would see no prospect of deriving her share of benefit from the payments of the other debtor States.
Mr. Macon said the subject was a very old one, which had occupied much time every session for many years, and he thought it would be as well to try the question now as at any other time. No information of a select committee could throw any new light upon it.
There was a fact which ought to have great weight with the committee. One of the Commissioners who made the settlement, who was a member of this House, had, after the settlement, proposed a resolution to extinguish the balances of the debtor States; and he had stated, as a reason for this measure, that the principle adopted by the board had operated very harshly upon particular States. Mr. M. had it from authority not to be questioned, that in the settlement by the Commissioners, teams, with the usual number of horses, had not produced twenty shillings.
This subject had hung over our heads for eight years, and no scheme was yet devised for collecting the balances. How could they be collected? Congress had, it is true, authorized expenditures by the States in the erection of fortifications; but this very act was a tacit confession of the impracticability of getting the money into the public Treasury. As to a settlement with North Carolina, it was involved in great difficulty. In the act of cession of lands by that State to the United States, it was provided that the territory ceded should be pledged to pay a proportional share of the balance due the United States. How could that share be estimated?
Mr. M. regretted that this subject had been brought up. He should not himself have been for bringing it up, for he thought the claims of the United States not worth a rush. The truth was, the States had all exerted themselves in one great and common cause; they had done their best; they had acted with great glory. As to the State which he represented, he would ask if the first blood that had been spilled after that shed at Boston was not in North Carolina? and that was the blood of brother against brother. He desired not, however, to make comparisons, which were always unpleasant, but to show that North Carolina had no reason to shrink from an inquiry which would demonstrate that she had fully contributed her share in the common cause, without meaning to assert that she had done more than other States. Let, then, Congress decide at once, and abandon the claims altogether, or devise some plan for collecting them, that we may know how we stand.
Mr. Dana said, I hope the amendment will not be agreed to. However gentlemen may be possessed of a wholesale intellect, that enables them to decide on interesting questions without a moment's reflection, I confess I am not blessed with so happy an intuition. I do not know that I have ever been called upon to form an opinion on this subject. As to a reference of it to a committee, I think their investigation may be useful, and after we get that, we may take time to decide. But now the plan is changed, and we are called upon to decide at once the principle. This mode of transacting business may be called an economy of time. You may give it the name, but it is not the substance. For my part, I desire to proceed according to our old plan, and go through the slow process of investigation. This is my way, and gentlemen may rest assured that this mode of hurrying business is not the way to save time, but to lose it.
Mr. Bayard declared himself in favor of the amendment, and he could not think, notwithstanding the remarks of his honorable friend from Connecticut, that any gentleman in the House was unprepared to vote upon it. The subject had been frequently discussed, and he believed that the House was then as well prepared for a decision as they would be for a century to come. It involved but a single principle; and, as to information, he could scarcely tell what information was wanted. He felt much of the indifference of the gentleman from North Carolina, (Mr. Macon.) He was sure the United States had neither the right, nor the power to recover these balances; and he repeated it as his opinion, that it had not been the original intention that the debtor States should pay them. Will gentlemen recollect that the commission was instituted under the old Confederation. Had Congress, then, a right to do any thing to bind the sovereignties of the independent States? All they could do was to pass resolutions making requisitions, which the States might or might not comply with. They could appoint Commissioners to settle the accounts, but could they impose the debts upon the States? No, they could not. It, therefore, never could have been contemplated that they would establish those debts. The only effect that could have been contemplated, was, that the creditor States might rely that, on a settlement, Congress would assume their balances.
On the question being put, the amendment was lost—yeas 41, nays 46.
When the original resolution for referring to a select committee the consideration of the expediency of extinguishing the balances was carried.
Ordered, That Mr. Thomas, Mr. Bayard, Mr. Dana, Mr. Hill, and Mr. Butler, be appointed a committee, pursuant to the said resolution.
And the House adjourned.