Friday, February 16.
Case of Griswold and Lyon.
Immediately upon the journals having been read,
Mr. Davis, of Kentucky, rose and proposed the following resolution for the adoption of the House:
"Resolved, That Roger Griswold and Matthew Lyon, members of this House, for violent and disorderly behavior committed in the House, be expelled therefrom."
Mr. Nicholas hoped the resolution would be permitted to lie on the table.
Mr. Davis saw no reason for delaying a decision upon this resolution. He thought the conduct of these gentlemen had been so grossly violent, and so notorious to most of the members of the House, that there need be no hesitation in deciding upon it. If gentlemen wished, however, to take the same course which had been adopted on a former occasion, he should not object to it, though he thought it unnecessary. It was needless, now to say any thing as to the necessity of preserving the dignity and honor of that House; enough had already been said, and he thought pertinently said, on a former occasion on this subject. And as he believed neither the dignity, the honor, or peace of that House could be preserved whilst these members remained in it, he hoped the House would be unanimous in voting their expulsion.
Mr. Thatcher did not see why the innocent should be punished with the guilty. The gentleman who brought forward this proposition, he supposed, did not wish this. From what he saw of the affray, he did not think Mr. Lyon deserved to be punished for the part he acted. He certainly received a severe beating, but he appeared to be passive from the beginning to the end; and he did not think Mr. Lyon ought to be expelled because he was beaten. As to any investigation of what happened yesterday, he did not think it necessary, as most of the members of that House were eye-witnesses to the fact. But the gentleman said there would be no peace until these members were expelled. He did not know from what he drew his conclusions. What was done yesterday was done before the House was in session; and it had already been determined that acts of violence committed without the bar, during a session of the House, are not causes of expulsion. He did not know, therefore, how gentlemen would support the doctrine that a member ought to be expelled for an act of violence done before the House was in session. It might be necessary, however, to investigate other facts connected with these.
Mr. J. Parker seconded the motion for the expulsion of these members, because he believed there would be no peace in the House until they were expelled. He was sorry the gentleman from Massachusetts should have said he saw nothing but what was passive on the part of Mr. Lyon. He himself saw more, and that gentleman must have seen it if he had his eyes about him. He said, that after the offending members had been separated Mr. Lyon met Mr. Griswold without the bar of the House and began to belabor him with his cane, when they were again separated. The attack of yesterday, Mr. P. said, at a time when the House ought to have been in session though it had not come to order, would fix an indelible stain upon it; and if these members were not expelled, no member could consider himself as safe in his seat. Such a transaction would certainly lower that House in the estimation of their constituents. He had even heard this morning, as he came to the Hall, persons in the street call out, "There is nothing to do in Congress to-day—there's no fighting going on!" In order to get rid of these reproaches, he hoped all parties would unite in expelling these members. If their constituents chose to send them back, he hoped no member would associate with or take notice of them. And if a vote of expulsion should be agreed upon, he would afterwards move to expunge from the journals all the entries relative to these disgraceful proceedings.
Mr. Nicholas wished the motion to lie upon the table for the present, because he was not himself prepared to decide upon the subject; he wished, also, that whenever the motion was taken up, gentlemen might come with their minds determined upon it, so that a long debate might not be necessary. He therefore moved to postpone the consideration of this resolution to Monday.
Mr. Gordon wished to know what part of the resolution the gentleman from Virginia was not ready to act upon?
Mr. Nicholas did not understand the drift of the gentleman's question. If he meant to ask whether he (Mr. N.) disapproved of the vote which he had already given, he would answer him he did not.
Mr. J. Williams said he should approve of the motion for postponement, if it were made for to-morrow, instead of Monday; and he hoped the business would not only be taken up to-morrow, but be concluded before they rose. He had sat with great patience during the late debate, but he should be opposed to going into any further lengthy proceedings on so disagreeable a subject, which would prevent them from doing the business of the nation, for which they were sent.
Mr. Nicholas had no objection to make the question the order for to-morrow, if the House met.
Mr. Thatcher observed, that he had before said that he had seen nothing on the part of Mr. Lyon, in the affray of yesterday, which ought to subject him to expulsion; but the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Parker) said, that if he (Mr. T.) had had his eyes about him, he might have seen something for which he ought to be expelled. If, indeed, he had eyes behind he might have seen what he alluded to; but this not being the case, he did not see it. As far as the business respects Mr. Lyon, some inquiry might be necessary, as all he saw was, that Mr. Lyon suffered much, without any offence on his part. He thought, therefore, the business should be gone into, as on a former occasion, and that they ought to examine the subject with candor, and then they should doubtless decide upon it with propriety.
Mr. Sitgreaves was against the postponement, in order that a different course might be taken. He knew nothing in this case which distinguished it from a late case, and therefore could not see why the same course ought not to be pursued as was then pursued. He should therefore vote against a postponement, in order that the resolution might be referred to the Committee of Privileges.
Mr. Harper inquired whether such a motion would not supersede a motion for postponement.
The Speaker said, it would.
Mr. Harper then made the motion.
Mr. Gallatin asked whether he understood the Speaker rightly, that a motion for a reference to a committee superseded a motion for postponement?
The Speaker said, it did.
Mr. Nicholas asked whether it would not then be in order to postpone the consideration of the subject?
The Speaker answered, it would.
Mr. Nicholas renewed the motion for a postponement till to-morrow.
Mr. Harper, believing that it would be proper to refer this resolution to a committee, as before, especially as some of the facts did not pass within the view of the House, he should vote against the postponement—not because he wished to avoid a vote on the question; for, if it should be the opinion of the House that it ought not to go to a committee, he was perfectly ready to give a vote upon the question; but he thought it better that the business should have this course. With respect to any discussion being necessary upon this subject, he perhaps might think it necessary to make some observations upon it, when the question came before the House for decision; for, though some gentlemen might be endued with the happy faculty of doing every thing in an instant, he could not boast of possessing that faculty. But, even if he were not desirous of discussion for his own information, he wished it for the information of the public; and, notwithstanding all that the House had heard about a waste of public money and public time, he believed they should best serve the public by suffering the business to take the usual course.
The motion for a postponement was put and negatived.
Mr. Sitgreaves then moved that the resolution be referred to the Committee of Privileges.
Mr. Harper moved that the committee have leave to sit during the session of the House.
Mr. Thatcher thought, as it was probable a number of members might be wanted to give evidence, the House had better adjourn, as on a former occasion, as it would not be proper to go on with business when so many members were absent.
Mr. T. Claiborne hoped leave would not be granted for the committee to sit immediately. He wished them coolly to deliberate upon the business, which they could scarcely be expected to do, when their passions were so strongly affected as they must be at present.
The question for leave to sit during the session was put and carried—46 to 36.
Mr. Harper moved that the committee be instructed to report to the House the evidence in writing, upon which they shall found their report.
Mr. Kittera thought the facts were so notorious that there was no necessity for this instruction.
Mr. Harper said if his friend from Pennsylvania could say that every body would be satisfied with the report of the committee without the evidence, he would not insist upon this motion. But if the evidence was not reported, how could he say that all the witnesses might not again be called before the House? It was his wish to prevent this.
Mr. J. Williams said there was a considerable difference between this transaction and the one lately under consideration. He thought in this case it would probably save much trouble to report the evidence.
Mr. Brooks said it must be recollected that the gentleman from Virginia was not satisfied with the former report. He wished to hear the witnesses themselves; and if the evidence was to be reported, he did not suppose it would be satisfactory.
Mr. Nicholas seconded the motion, because it would be likely to shorten the business; but if, when the testimony came to be reported, there was any obscurity in it, he should feel it necessary to ask the witnesses questions by way of elucidation, as every man who was called upon as a judge, should be in full possession of every fact relative to the subject.
Mr. Brooks said the gentleman who had just sat down, would have no difficulty in pointing out some obscurity, in order to furnish an apology for rehearing of the witnesses.
Mr. Kittera said if to report the evidence would prevent the necessity of hearing the witnesses in the House, he should not object to it; but he believed this would not be the case.
Mr. Venable was before of opinion that it would have been best for witnesses to have delivered their evidence in writing. He hoped that course would now be taken, and then there would be no difficulty in reporting it to the House; and if it should be found necessary, in order to elucidate any part of it, to put any questions to the witnesses in the House, the business would be greatly facilitated and shortened by the evidence being reported.
The question was put and carried.
Mr. Otis believed that something further was necessary to be done in respect to the unfortunate business, which had already engaged the attention of the House. From what had happened in the view of the House, it appears that the parties are in the habit of conflicting with each other; and except they are restrained by some authority which shall be sufficiently imposing upon them, further violence may be expected. In order, therefore, to secure this House from future violations of its dignity and order, he proposed the following resolution for adoption:
"Resolved, That Roger Griswold and Matthew Lyon, members of this House, be respectively required by the Speaker to pledge their words to this House, that they will not commit any act of violence upon each other during this session; and that if either refuse to make such engagements, the party refusing shall be committed to the custody of the Sergeant-at-arms, until he shall comply with this obligation."
Mr. Sewall understood a motion had been agreed to in relation to the affair of yesterday, which might produce an expulsion of the members in question. He thought it would be better, therefore, to alter the wording of the resolution, and instead of "during this session," say "during the continuance of the examination of the business before the House."
Mr. Sitgreaves did not think any alterations were necessary. An expulsion of the members was a possible, but not a necessary result. If an expulsion does not take place, the resolution will remain in operation for the remainder of the session, which would be proper; and, if an expulsion took place, its operation would fall of course.
Mr. J. Williams thought it best to pass the resolution as it stood. If a similar resolution had been entered into on a former occasion, it would probably have prevented what had now taken place.
Mr. R. Williams called for the reading of the resolution which was passed on a former occasion. [It was read. It stated "that any personal contest between the members, before the House had come to a decision upon the business, would be considered as a high breach of privileges.">[ Mr. W. thought this resolution went as far as the House had a right to go. The resolution proposed by the gentleman from Massachusetts, went farther, he thought, than they had power to go. It went to imprison one or both of the parties, if he or they refused to comply with the request of the House. He had his doubts whether that House had the constitutional power to imprison a man for a crime, as the law only would do this. He thought a resolution, similar to that adopted on a former occasion, would be sufficient at present; and if the mover did not think proper so to alter it, he would himself move an amendment for this purpose.
Mr. Otis flattered himself that his object would have met with the concurrence of all sides of the House, believing that all wished to prevent future violations of order and peace. With respect to the doubts of the gentleman from North Carolina, his politics seemed to be altogether a system of doubts. If this system was common, it would be extremely difficult to progress with business at all. He believed, on the present occasion, these doubts were groundless. When an act of violence was done in the view of the members of the House, they had certainly the power to obtain some security against a repetition of such violence. If this was not done, the presumption was, the business of the session might be continually interrupted; and had they not the right of securing the peaceful exercise of their legislative functions for the remainder of the session? He thought this could not be seriously doubted. With respect to the former resolution, if he had been in his place, he should have suggested its impropriety; for, by it, it seemed to be implied that, after the question was decided, though they could not do it before, the members in question would be at liberty to commit any act of violence they pleased upon each other. They had seen the consequence. He hoped, therefore, the House would restrain these gentlemen in such a manner as that it may not be in their power again to interrupt their proceedings.
The question was then taken on the resolution, and carried by a large majority, there being 73 votes in favor of it.
The Speaker asked, whether it was the pleasure of the House that the Sergeant-at-arms should be sent for Mr. Lyon?
Mr. Sitgreaves said it might not be convenient for Mr. Lyon to attend the House; he asked whether the resolution might not be sent to him, and his answer be received in writing?
Mr. Nicholas supposed, that if both gentlemen prepared a declaration in writing, and presented it to-morrow, it would answer the purpose.
Mr. Harper replied, the mischief intended to be guarded against might in the mean time be done.
Mr. Gallatin said, he had just been called out by a member of the House, who had asked him whether he thought it would be proper for Mr. Lyon to attend the House. He supposed, therefore, if the Sergeant-at-arms was sent for him, he would immediately attend.
Mr. Harper hoped the Sergeant-at-arms would be sent.
The Speaker said, as soon as the Clerk had made a copy of the resolution, the Sergeant-at-arms would wait upon Mr. Lyon with it.
Mr. Lyon having entered,
The Speaker said, the members from Vermont and Connecticut being now in their places, he should proceed to read the resolution which had been entered into by the House. [He then read the resolution.]
As soon as it was finished reading,
Mr. Griswold rose and said, he should not hesitate to enter into the proposed engagement.
Mr. Lyon also rose and said, he was ready, as it was the wish of the House, to agree to the proposition.
The Speaker said, then you do accordingly agree to this proposition?
Both answered, "I do agree."