Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 2 (of 16)

by United States. Congress

Monday, January 25.

Import Duties.

Mr. Nicholson called up the resolution he laid on the table on Friday, for instructing the Committee of Ways and Means to report generally on the subject of impost duties.

Mr. Lowndes wished to amend it so as to direct the attention of that committee particularly to the articles of salt, brown sugar, coffee, and Bohea tea.

This the Speaker considered out of order, as resolutions on those subjects were then before the House.

Mr. Rutledge and Mr. Bayard wished to withdraw the resolutions they had offered on the articles of salt, brown sugar, &c.

Mr. Speaker considered the resolutions in possession of the House, as they had been debated, and the previous question taken on them, and no motion could be made while another motion was pending.

Mr. Bayard asked for information whether it was in order for him to state that he withdrew his resolution?

Some conversation took place as to points of order.

The question on the resolution was called for.

Mr. Dana said there was no instruction given to the committee by the resolution of December 13, to make a report on the subject of imposts and tonnage. He was pleased to see this resolution moved by the gentleman from Maryland, as it showed his belief to be that the subject was not referred to the committee.

Mr. Dana expressed his wish that two things should be referred to the Committee of Ways and Means: First, a general view of the duties of imposts and excise that they might be contrasted; and, secondly, that certain articles should be specifically referred to them.

Mr. Nicholson said the gentleman from Connecticut was very much mistaken as to the object of his resolution. It was not that he did not think the subject before the committee, but as so much had been said about the former general reference, he wished to prevent the gentleman from Connecticut from quibbling respecting the reference.

[Here Mr. N. was called to order by Mr. Griswold. The Speaker declared it as his opinion that the gentleman was in order. Mr. Bayard appealed to the House, and called the yeas and nays, which were agreed to be taken.]

Internal Revenues—Expenses of collection compared with Custom House Duties.

Mr. Bayard called up the following resolution, which he had some days previously laid upon the table, viz:

"Resolved, That the Secretary of the Treasury be required to lay before this House an account, in detail, of the expenses incurred in the collection of the internal revenues of the United States; distinguishing, where the same may be practicable, the expenses attending the collection in each branch of the said revenue, and, also, an estimate of reduction of said expenses which may conveniently be made."

The resolution having been read, Mr. B. said: As it is extremely possible, Mr. Speaker, that it is designed that this resolution shall share the same fate with that which the resolution of the gentleman from New York experienced this morning, I shall be allowed at least by publicly stating, to justify to the world, the motive which induced me to bring it forward. [Mr. B. alluded to a resolution offered by Mr. T. Morris, the object of which was, to direct the Secretary of the Treasury to state to the House the amount of stamp duties collected in each State, distinguishing what part was paid by the commercial cities. When the resolution was taken up there was a call for the question. Nothing was said against the propriety of it. It being merely a call for information, and considered so much a matter of course to agree to such resolutions when no opposition was made to them, it was not supposed necessary to say any thing on the propriety and reasonableness of the resolution. Yet, to the astonishment of its friends, when the question was put, there were for it 34, against it 54.]

Gentlemen are infinitely deceived, said Mr. B., if they think our object is, by any particular mode of proceeding, to gain an unfair advantage of public opinion. If such a suspicion be entertained, our conduct has been viewed with a jaundiced eye. It is a motive which never has, and I hope never will direct our measures. If popularity is to be gained only by a prostitution of principle to ignorant and unthinking prejudice, we are content to forego it. I am far from being indifferent to public opinion; the approbation of our fellow-citizens is the only reward we can expect for our services; but it is a reward no honest man will seek, if it is to be acquired only by artifice and deception.

I have avowed and avowed sincerely, that I am disposed to go hand and hand with gentlemen in the reduction of public burdens. When it was necessary I assisted in imposing them—now that circumstances permit I more cheerfully co-operate in taking them off. My true object is to make the most of our situation; not to be deluded by empty theories, or speculative systems, but, by an enlarged view of the various interests of the country, to discover by the reduction of what taxes the society would be the most substantially benefited.

The reduction of the Military Establishment creates considerable savings; other retrenchments are contemplated in the Navy and civil administration. These savings enable us to dispense with certain taxes; but is it not wise to examine diligently the operation of the several taxes which exist, and, after being informed by the various views which belong to the subject, to exonerate the community from those which, with the least benefit, are the most burdensome?

One great objection to the internal taxes is the expense of collection. I wish to know the particulars of this expense in order to see whether it may not be curtailed. I wish also to be informed of the expenses attending each branch of the revenue, for the purpose of judging whether it may not be expedient to retain some branches, while it may be wise to part with others. These are my objects; do they not entitle us to the information asked?

We know in one instance, that the expense in collecting the stamp duty is less than five per cent. This appears by the report of the Secretary of the Treasury; but we are not informed of the particular expenses belonging to the other branches of the revenue.

Sir, said Mr. B., I must rely that the resolution will be agreed to; there is not a precedent in our annals or opposition to such a resolution; if, however, one is now to be introduced, I think it proper that the names of those gentlemen should hereafter appear by whom it was resisted, and by whom it was established. He therefore hoped the question would be taken by yeas and nays.

The Clerk, at the request of Mr. Randolph, read an extract from the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, as follows:

"It will appear by the same statement, [M,] that while the expenses of collection on merchandise and tonnage, which are defrayed out of the revenue, do not exceed four per cent., those on permanent internal duties amount to almost twenty per cent. This, however, is an inconvenience which, on account of the great number of the individuals on whom the duties are raised, and of their dispersed situation throughout the whole extent of the United States, must, more or less, attach to the system of internal taxation so long as the wants of Government shall not require any considerable extension, and the total amount of revenue shall remain inconsiderable."

Mr. T. Morris.—If the honorable gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Randolph) thinks that the extract of the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, the reading of which he has called for, furnishes the information demanded by my honorable friend from Delaware, he is mistaken. The Secretary's report gives you a general estimate of the expense of collecting the aggregate of the internal taxes, but does not specify the charge falling on each separate tax. From the statement exhibited by the Secretary, it appears that it costs twenty per cent. to collect the whole of the internal taxes; but if the detailed statement asked for by the gentleman from Delaware is furnished, it will appear that the collection of some of those taxes does not cost more than five or six per cent. To show how unfair it is to connect together the expense attending the collection of all the internal taxes, I need only refer gentlemen to an authority which I believe they will not dispute. If my memory, sir, is not very incorrect, it will appear by a publication of the present Secretary of the Treasury, written in the year 1796, that the tax on country distilleries cost in its collection near thirty per cent.; that on city distilleries about nineteen. These, sir, and other reasons, may evince the propriety of repealing the tax on country distilleries; but because this tax is expensive in its collection, because it may be liable to objections, does it follow that other taxes, such as the tax on carriages, on refined sugars, &c., which fall on the rich, and which are not expensive in the collection, does it follow, I say, that because it may be proper to repeal the first, that these are to fall too? It is, sir, in order to be enabled to make proper discrimination, to be enabled to know which of these taxes ought to be repealed, and which retained, that the gentleman from Delaware has moved his resolution. And here, sir, let me be permitted to express a hope, that the resolution now before you may not meet with the silent negative which was the fate of one intended also to procure information, and which I had the honor of laying on your table. I did and do still believe, sir, that the majority of this House could not have been actuated by proper motives in refusing that information. [Here Mr. Randolph called Mr. Morris to order, saying that he had no right to impeach the motives of members. Mr. M. observed that for his part he was at a loss to know what was considered disorderly in that House, but that he would submit to the correction of the Chair. The Speaker determined him to be in order, and Mr. M. proceeded.] With regard, sir, to the course of proceeding which gentlemen have lately adopted, persevering in an inflexible silence, rejecting every proposition made by a member in the minority, without deigning to show its fallacy, refusing public documents for our information and that of our fellow-citizens, without showing, or even pretending to show, that they are unnecessary, I can only say that it militates against all my ideas of propriety. I have always hitherto supposed that every Representative on this floor had a right to be heard; that he had a right to call on the majority for their reasons both when they supported and opposed public measures. Gentlemen may, if they please, meet in what they have denominated caucuses when power was in other hands; they may then confer together about the measures in which they may think proper to unite; but, sir, if their debates are to take place there, and there alone, if we are not to be furnished here by them with the reasons which induce them to adopt public measures, they ought at least to open their doors to the minority, in order that, if they cannot hear their arguments in the proper place, they may not close them altogether. I trust, sir, that gentlemen themselves will see the impropriety of persevering in this line of conduct, and that they will consent to pay, if not to gentlemen in the minority, at least to their propositions, the attention and respect which they may deserve.

Mr. Griswold said, that he presumed the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Randolph) had requested that the extract from the report of the Secretary of the Treasury might be read, and which the House had just heard, for the purpose of proving that the resolution under consideration ought to pass. Indeed that report, and the statement to which it referred, evinced in the most satisfactory manner that the information required by the resolution was absolutely necessary for the purpose of enabling the House to decide understandingly on the proposition, which it was expected would soon be brought forward, for abolishing the internal taxes. The Secretary in his report had declared that the expense of collecting the internal taxes amounted nearly to twenty per cent. on the amount collected. It appeared, however, from the statements to which the Secretary had alluded, that the tax on stills, the carriage tax, the tax on licenses, on sales at auction, and the tax on refined sugar, had been included in one class, and the expense of collecting all those taxes, without distinguishing the charges on each branch, had been stated to be nearly twenty per cent., whilst the expense of collecting the stamp duty, another branch of the internal taxes, was short of five per cent., varying only a fraction from the charges on the revenue from impost and tonnage. These statements might be satisfactory as far as they went, but it was obvious that in examining the branches of a revenue, with a view to the expense of collection, it became necessary to ascertain the precise charge which had fallen on each branch, and to obtain this necessary information, and which the report and statements had left defective, the resolution had been principally brought forward. And what had rendered this information peculiarly necessary at this time was the ground which had been taken in opposition to the internal taxes. The only argument which he had heard against those taxes, and which did not equally apply to the impost, was drawn from the great expense which had arisen in the collection. To enable the House, therefore, to decide whether the fact existed on which that argument had been founded, it became necessary to inquire in the manner proposed by the resolution whether the extraordinary expense with which those taxes had been charged might not be diminished, and whether the expense really existed in relation to each description of them.

Mr. G. said that he presumed no gentleman was prepared to say that the general expense of collection might not be diminished, and so far was he from believing that every branch of the internal taxes was subjected to the charge of nineteen or twenty per cent., he was perfectly confident that if gentlemen would agree to the resolution, the detailed statements, which the Secretary would furnish in obedience to it, would prove that the expense of collecting certain branches of those taxes would fall much short of the sum at which the same has been estimated.

The consent of the House, said Mr. G., to every call for information, had formerly been so much a matter of course, that he should not have troubled the House with any remarks upon so plain a question as the present, had not the experience of this day proved, that gentlemen were not always to be indulged by the House with the information which they required; and the profound silence which had at this time been observed by those gentlemen who could either admit or reject the resolution, appeared to indicate a determination on their part to refuse the important and necessary information required by the resolution. He did presume, however, that upon this occasion the House would consent to the resolution, and more particularly, as the report of the Secretary of the Treasury, which had been read at the request of the gentleman from Virginia, proved so clearly the necessity of passing it.

Mr. Huger could not reconcile it with his sense of duty, to give a silent vote on the present occasion, nor could he but lament the strange and novel course of proceeding which gentlemen had thought proper to adopt. The intention, it would seem, was to repeal the internal taxes, right or wrong, and at all events; and so determined were gentlemen on carrying this favorite project into execution, that every thing like previous investigation, or even a wish to gain information on the subject, was hooted at and treated with the most sovereign contempt. Every, the smallest, reduction on taxes of any other description, was avowedly to be excluded, nor was any proposition to this effect deemed worthy of even a moment's consideration. The measure proposed, however, interested in a very particular manner that part of the community he had the honor to represent. They paid, it was true, a small portion of the internal taxes, but the various other taxes upon salt, brown sugar, coffee, &c., and the duties on imposts generally, fell more immediately and far more heavily on them. Was it not natural, therefore, that he should have some hesitation on the subject; that he should feel anxious to see this project thoroughly and completely investigated; that he should wish to receive every possible information which might either tend to satisfy his mind as to the expediency of repealing the internal taxes only, to the total exclusion of all others, or enable him to propose some other project, equally beneficial perhaps to the public at large, and which might at the same time accord better with the immediate interests of his constituents?

His constituents, he was proud to say it, had ever contributed with alacrity and cheerfulness to the wants and exigencies of the Union. They were prepared and willing, he was confident, to do so still; and he made not the least doubt but that they would readily subscribe to the exclusive repeal of the internal taxes, and submit, without a murmur, to the continuation of all the other taxes, however burdensome to themselves, provided they are convinced and well satisfied that this measure was fairly and impartially adopted for the welfare of the whole, and not for the benefit of the one at the expense of the other division of the country. It was for this purpose, therefore, that he wished the present motion to be adopted, and that he had desired the attention of the Committee of Ways and Means to be directed, particularly, to those articles of importation and of general use and necessity, such as salt, sugar, coffee, common teas, &c. He was desirous that these and similar items should be compared with the carriage tax, the tax on licenses to retail spirituous liquors, and various other similar items of the internal taxes, and that the House might be furnished with such information with respect to both, as might enable him to judge, whether there might not be a partial repeal as well of some of the external as internal taxes, and not a total and exclusive reduction of the latter, as was contemplated; whilst all the former, however grievous and inconvenient, were to be retained. Did he then ask any thing which was unreasonable or improper? Could any possible inconvenience accrue from allowing him to obtain the information he desired? If not, why refuse to indulge him in what he deemed useful, and what (at the worst) could only be regarded by gentlemen themselves as superfluous information? Was it fair; was it becoming; did it comport with that civility and politeness which was due from the one to the other, by citizens of a common country, assembled together for the express purpose of consulting upon their common interests, to treat thus cavalierly what must at least be allowed to be a respectable minority?

With respect to the two only reasons which had ever been offered in favor of the exclusive repeal of the internal tax, viz: the expense and number of officers required to collect it, was it not the immediate and precise object of the resolution under debate to inquire whether it was not possible to devise some means by which these inconveniences might be obviated, or at least greatly lessened? And what objection could there be to the inquiry? Were gentlemen perfectly and entirely convinced that nothing of the kind could be done, or were they apprehensive that the thing was in itself so feasible, that an inquiry of this kind would throw a stumbling-block in the way of the project already determined on, which although he would freely acknowledge, that as an abstract proposition it was expedient as much as possible, and to collect your taxes at as small an expense, and by means of as few agents as conveniently could be done, yet there was another still more important maxim which ought never to be lost sight of: this was, that the burdens of the Government, as well as the advantages which flowed from it, should be fairly, equally, impartially, and equitably distributed among every description of the citizens, in whatever part of the country they resided. If, therefore, it did happen, that a few more officers and a somewhat greater percentage were required to collect the taxes in one than in another part of the country, this alone would most certainly and indubitably not be a sufficient reason to do away all the taxes in the one, and throw the whole burden of the Government on the inhabitants of the other.

Mr. Rutledge confessed himself much puzzled by the new forms of proceeding this day adopted. Ever since he had had the honor of a seat in Congress, it had been invariably the practice, when measures were proposed not agreeable to the majority, for them to offer their objections to them. This had ever been the practice, and the experience of its convenience offered strong reasons for its continuance. When the majority stated their objections to any measure, the minority in sustaining it answered them fully; thus, both sides acted understandingly, and when the proceedings of the National Legislature went out to the people, they were at the same time informed of the reasons under which their Representatives had legislated. This had not only been the usage in Congress, but the form of proceeding in all representative bodies with whose history we are acquainted. Even in the British House of Commons, which gentlemen had often and emphatically styled a mockery of representation, so great is the respect paid to public opinion, that the majority deem it their duty to assign in debate the reasons of their conduct. Although the Minister in England has quite as much confidence in the strength of his majority as gentlemen here can have in theirs, yet, in feeling power, he does not forget right, and his regard for public opinion is so great, that he never secures his measures by a silent vote. In these days of innovation, we, it seems, are to pursue a different course. When the resolution offered this morning by his honorable friend from New York (Mr. Morris) was taken into consideration, not a voice was raised against it. This profound silence made us expect a unanimous vote; but, in consequence, he supposed, of some outdoor arrangements, it was rejected by this silent majority. He had seen many deliberative assemblies, but never before witnessed such a procedure. He would not say whether this was respectful towards the minority, who, we have been told from high authority, have their equal rights—he would not say whether it was dignified as it regarded the majority, but, without pretending to any spirit of prophecy, he would venture to say it could not be deemed politic or wise by the people of this country.

When the doors of Congress were open, and persons admitted to take the debates, the people expected to be fully informed of the views and motives which governed the votes of their Representatives. But it seems our constituents are not to be treated with this heretofore common civility. In proposing measures we are obliged to guess at what gentlemen feel against them, (for they say nothing,) and to defend them, without knowing in what they are objectionable to those who govern in this House. This kind of governing is but ill calculated to produce harmony, to restore social intercourse, and to heal the wounds inflicted on society by the spirit of party.

The question was taken, and it passed in the negative—yeas 37, nays 57.

Duties on Imports.

Mr. Rutledge called up for consideration the resolution which he moved on Friday, on which the previous question was then taken, viz:

"Resolved, That the Committee of Ways and Means be instructed particularly to inquire into the expediency of reducing the duties on brown sugar, coffee, and bohea tea."

Mr. Griswold hoped the resolution would be decided upon.

Mr. Rutledge hoped the reference would obtain. These articles paid the highest rate of duties and were of the first necessity. In looking over the rates of duties on imports, he saw many articles that were taxed enormously high. Those in the resolution were of the first necessity, the duty high, and laid when they were at war prices; while the people received war prices for their produce, they could with convenience pay for these articles, though high. The object of the resolution was merely to inquire, and he did not see how it could interfere with any object gentlemen have in view.

Mr. Dana.—I beg liberty to tender the homage of my profound respects, for the dignified situation in which gentlemen have now placed themselves, and congratulate them on their silence. There is something peculiarly impressive in this mode of opposing every thing that is urged. It is seldom that gentlemen have exhibited such a remarkable appearance of a philosophical assembly.

"That dumb Legislature will immortalize your name"—is said to have been the language of a certain distinguished General to a certain nominal Abbé, who has been represented as having pigeon-holes full of constitutions of his own making. During the memorable night at St. Cloud, when the French Council of Ancients, and Council of Five Hundred, were adjourned—to meet no more—it may be recollected, the powers of executive government were provisionally committed to three persons, styled Consuls, and two of them were the General and the Abbé. From each of the Councils, twenty-five members were selected, to compose a commission, and assist the provisional Consuls in preparing a constitution for France. Of the numerous projects of constitutions presented by the Abbé, it is said no part was finally adopted except the plan of a dumb Legislature. This, the General instantly seized with apparent enthusiasm, exclaiming to the Abbé, "that dumb Legislature will immortalize your name!" And it was determined to have a corps legislatif that should vote, but not debate.

It was scarcely to be expected that any thing like this would soon take place in our own country. But it is the prerogative of great geniuses, when in similar circumstances, to arrive at the same great results, although with some difference in the process. Nor can I forbear offering my tribute of admiration, for the genius who has projected a mode of proceeding among us, that so nearly rivals the plan adopted in France. I know not to whom is due the honor of this luminous discovery. After ascribing to him, however, all merited glory, permit me to examine the force of the argument relied on by gentlemen in opposition to the proposed resolution.

Their argument is silence. I hope to be excused if I do not discuss this subject in the most satisfactory manner; as silence is a new species of logic, about which no directions have been found in any treatise on logic that I have ever seen. It will be my endeavor to reply to gentlemen by examining some points which may be considered as involved in their dumb arguments.

One of these points is—that certain members of this House have pledged themselves to their constituents, for repealing all the internal taxes. They may have declared their opinions to this effect, before the election; and, being chosen under such circumstances, may now deem themselves bound in honor not to vary. The terms assented to between their constituents and themselves may, therefore, be viewed by them as the particular rule of their own conduct. But is this House to be regarded in the same light with the English House of Commons, during the early period of their history, when the knights of shires, and the representatives of cities and boroughs, were instructed on what terms they should bargain with the Crown for special privileges, and were limited to the price agreed on by their constituents? The situation of gentlemen who have thus pledged themselves to vote for repealing the internal taxes, must be irksome, indeed, if on mature consideration they should believe it more proper and more beneficial for the country to have other taxes reduced. Those who have entered into a stipulation of this sort, so as to feel it as a point of honor, are so peculiarly circumstanced that they might think it too assuming in me, were I so much as to express a desire that they would vote for reducing some of the duties on imports, instead of repealing all the internal taxes. It is to be hoped, the number of members who have pledged themselves in this manner, does not exceed twenty-five or thirty.

Another point involved in this argument of silence is, that other gentlemen may have pledged themselves to these, and given them a promise of support on this subject. It must be acknowledged that this was more than was required on account of their seat in this House. If any gentlemen have absolutely so pledged themselves to their constituents, it must indeed be difficult to convince them. On this point, their minds must be so differently constituted from mine, that there does not seem to be any common principle between us that can be assumed as the basis of argumentation.

Another point is, the Executive has recommended a repeal of all the internal taxes, and not any reduction of the impost. And will gentlemen act upon this as a sufficient reason for their conduct? Is it now to become a principle, that the Executive is to deliberate, and the Legislature to act, and that no measure is to be adopted unless proposed by the Executive? Would it not be better for the country to abolish this House, and to avoid useless expense, if it is to be nothing more than one of the ancient Parliaments of France, employed to register the edicts of a master?

The silence of the gentlemen may also be considered as having relation to their great desire for the harmony of social intercourse. To prevent its being disturbed in the House by debating, they may have come to a determination that all the great questions shall be settled by gentlemen of a certain description, when met in nocturnal conclave, and be only voted upon in this place. If such be the fact, it seems but reasonable that any of the members of this House should be admitted in meetings of the conclave, as delegates from the territorial districts are admitted into Congress, with a right to debate, although not to vote. If, however, this is thought too much, gentlemen should at least have galleries provided, so that other members of the Legislature might be admitted as spectators, and have the opportunity of knowing the reasons for public measures.

The question was called for, when Mr. Eustis begged the Speaker would state it, as, in listening to the arguments of the gentleman from Connecticut, he had forgotten it.

Mr. Rutledge said he was much pleased by the question of the honorable gentleman from Massachusetts. When gentlemen ask, What is the question? it is to be hoped that they will respect its merits; but, from the scene this day acted, he had learned that the only inquiry with gentlemen would be, from what side does this come?

The question was then taken by yeas and nays, and lost—yeas 35, nays 58.