Saturday, February 18.
Naval Appropriation.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill granting an appropriation for finishing the three frigates, and also upon the bill repealing that part of the act which provided for the officering and manning the frigates, both having been committed to the same Committee of the Whole. That for repealing a part of the former law came first under consideration.
Mr. W. Smith said he could not abandon the idea of our some time becoming a naval power; he very much disliked the repealing this act; in order, however, to make the bill more palatable, and to remove some of the embarrassments which the Senate would otherwise have to encounter, he would move to substitute, instead of the word "repeal," the words "suspend for —— years."
Mr. Coit thought the very beginning of the frigates a wild notion, and hoped the most distant idea of manning them would not enter gentlemen's minds; he should therefore oppose the motion.
Mr. Venable said, it seemed the gentleman who moved the amendment did not think it necessary the ships should now be manned. The operation of the amendment appeared to put it in the power of one branch of the Legislature, at a future day, to man the ships, and send them to sea. He was surprised at the changeableness of the gentleman who moved and favored the equipment. When a naval armament was first proposed, it was objected to, as looking like forming a Naval Establishment. They then told us it was expressly to repel the encroachments of the Algerines; and that, as soon as peace was obtained with that power, the building of them was to stop. Now they come forward, and avow a desire to have a Navy Establishment. Thus originate evils which if not stopped early, would spread and become dangerous. The only fair argument they have on the subject is, that a Navy is now become necessary. Certain it is, that, if they intend to have a Naval Establishment, to protect our commerce and repel our injuries, three frigates will be very incompetent to the object. He should not object to finishing them, and only because so much had been expended on them already, but should ever oppose fitting them for sea.
Mr. Swanwick asked the gentleman what security there was in a peace with Algiers? Could he say we were at peace with them now? Certainly we are in a worse situation with that power now than then; we are parting with our cash, (which makes it such a scarce article,) and yet we have no benefit. Now it is said it is altogether a vision—a fancy or a dream. Then gentlemen get up and ask what we are to do with three frigates? He would answer, that so far as they went, they gave stability and protection to our commerce. True, they were not thirty frigates, but he believed, few as they were, they would save more than five times what they cost in only one year. The richest ships we have are now taken and robbed by every picaroon and pirate infesting the seas, because we have no security; and he was surprised it was not worse. He had no doubt but it would be an emolument; it would be a protection to the great revenue we enjoy. That very trade, he said, which was subject to spoliation from such petty robbers, paid into the revenue five or six millions of duty annually. If this was still permitted to be encroached on, it was an error, and it would soon be seen; and this was by a people called "free and enlightened." He had no doubt they would soon be enlightened enough to see they had done wrong. If gentlemen are against finishing these frigates, why do they not come forward and declare it? Let us sell them, said he, at public auction. What will be the effect if we have it told at our wharves that we object to man them, because we have peace with Algiers? He hoped they would be manned, or else have tacked to the bill, that, when finished, they were to be sold for East Indiamen or something. If that were gentlemen's wish, this was the time to come forward and say so, and let it be put in the bill. He would ask, Was there any thing in the name of Government, if it operated in this manner? It was extraordinary conduct, indeed.
Gentlemen say they will not vote to finish these frigates, except the repeal for manning is included. When it goes up to the Senate, may they not say they will not vote to finish, except it be to man them? But, Mr. S. said, he supposed gentlemen depended upon negotiation, if any thing was wrong. What were the consequences of our late negotiation? We have two things before us—treaty or ships. As for treaty, we have seen our money sent across the Atlantic, and scattered a thousand ways: this was throwing it into the ocean. He had heard of a Doge of Venice throwing a ring into the sea to marry it: it seemed this money was gone for the same purpose, and its use would be no better than the Doge's ring. He thought the most complete treaty was, power to resist aggression. This business of negotiation is very unprofitable. You may obtain fair promises from foreign ministers, but very poor redress, if any.
The question on the amendment was put and lost—ayes 30, noes 51.
Mr. Harrison moved for the committee to rise and report the bill without amendments.
Mr. Nicholas said, it seemed that gentlemen were making a new business of this. At the time it was brought forward, gentlemen voted in favor of it, because the law was to be repealed. He voted to separate the bills, because he conceived it would not be right to say to the Senate, You shall do two things together, or neither. He hoped the committee would rise, that the House may not have such power over the business as to keep it back. If the other bill pass the Senate, said he, we can take up this, and pass it in a short time.
Mr. Parker thought this a most extraordinary procedure, to say we will not pass the appropriation bill till we know the Senate have agreed to that for repealing. He thought the Senate had as great a right to exercise their discretion as that House. He never expected to have heard such expressions. This was holding out a dictum for their conduct: this he thought neither fair nor proper.
Mr. Venable thought the bills were connected. He wished to vote merely for finishing the frigates. He hoped the committee would not rise, but that it might be so amended as to add the other bill to it. When he voted for the appropriation, he said, he voted for it only in such a manner as should be reconcilable with his judgment. If the gentleman would waive his motion, and the House would so connect it, he should be gratified.
Mr. Harrison said, as the last gentleman's ideas were fully to his purpose, he should withdraw his motion.
On motion being made for connecting the bills—
Mr. Buck hoped it would not prevail. The only reason he saw to object, (and he thought that very forcible,) was, that it discovered a jealousy in that House of another branch of the Government, which he thought very unjustifiable. He had voted for the repeal, but should not vote for the appropriation. He thought they ought to act for themselves, without reference to the other branch. Any member may vote which way he pleased, but to say he would not vote for one without they go to the other, was unfair. He could see no justice in such a mistrust from this branch of the Legislature. Suppose, he said, the bills go to the Senate separately, they may concur in the appropriation, and reject the appeal. Even in that situation, were it to be left, the Executive could not man the frigates, unless they could obtain further appropriations—to obstruct which would be preferable, and would put it out of the power of the Senate to embarrass the House.
Mr. Venable said his vote was given without any relation whatever to the Senate. He thought any act passed by this House could not, when sent up to the Senate, be termed disrespectful, for each branch had a right to act for themselves. He was surprised to hear the gentleman last up say he should not vote this appropriation; for he had heard him say, on a former occasion, that he would vote an appropriation for any treaty, law, or whatever should exist to call for it. Mr. V. confessed himself to be of a very different opinion; for he always thought the House had a discretionary power to grant it or not, but that gentleman had long said it had none.
Mr. Buck said, as his doctrines had been called in question, he must beg indulgence to explain. He never said that the House had not a right to judge on the propriety of appropriation in an existing law. He conceived a treaty quite another thing. The President and Senate have a constitutional power to make a treaty; in that, he said, he did advocate that that House had no right to withhold appropriations; but in laws, where the power of making appropriations rests partly in that House, they had a right to grant or withhold. This, he said, he had always held.
Mr. Nicholas said, this appeared to him a very unreasonable clamor in behalf of the Senate. The gentleman last up seemed very careful not to awaken the jealousy of the Senate. How could he know what part would awaken that idea of disrespect? He had formed his mind to vote on the subject, and surely every member might do so, without a fear of showing disrespect to another branch. The gentleman had said that this House may refuse to appropriate for a law. Now, suppose the Senate refuse to repeal without we appropriate, we are then forced to choose one of two evils. Very often, Mr. N. said, the House were obliged to appropriate for a law, it may be, so far executed that they could not refuse. Suppose the President should, after this, appoint officers to enlist men for the frigates, how could the House refuse to pay them? While a law existed to man these ships, it would be difficult to prevent it: it would enable those who were friendly to the measure to carry it into effect. He hoped, therefore, the House would not run the risk by leaving it open to such possible intrusion.
Mr. S. Smith thought this was a very unfair way of doing business, but he had been used to such things. He thought this form of tacking was very improper and unfair. It had been observed that we were the most free and enlightened people, but he thought those who advocated these measures proved the very contrary.
Mr. Swanwick said, it appeared to him a kind of Legislative stratagem. The whole intention of the business could be easily discovered. If there was nothing improper, why should they fear to trust the Senate with it? Having the yeas and nays on both bills, gentlemen could not easily excuse them for voting for the repeal, as it would go out into the country that many had voted contrary to their arguments. Thus we are forced to vote against our own opinion, or not have the frigates finished. He could plainly see that gentlemen meant to defeat the object, and, he thought, in a very unfair way.
Mr. W. Lyman spoke much of the impolicy and impropriety of the measures of those gentlemen who supported naval preparations. Some time back, he said, those very gentlemen were advising us to cultivate our land, and not regard commerce—it was a broken reed to depend on; but now, they want to put the nation to an enormous expense to protect that commerce they thought so lightly of! The frigates would cost more than double the money which was at first estimated: this would be a disgrace to any nation. The whole process of the business had been bad, and he had no doubt but the estimate now before the House would be found deficient. Though he thought a small Navy would be useful, yet, until he saw its process conducted more fairly, and with more discretion, he should not vote a shilling to it: for the waste of money which had been discovered in this, had given him a distaste to it.
A remark having fallen from Mr. L., on the constitutionality of this appropriation—
Mr. W. Smith said, that, what the gentleman observed, only respected an Army. The constitution says, an appropriation for the Army shall not be made for more than two years, but it said not a word about restricting a Navy; and it is certain that the framers of the constitution had a view to a Navy, as in three different parts it makes mention of it. [Here Mr. S. read those parts from the constitution.] The question was not whether to repeal the law or not, but whether the appropriation bill was to be tacked to the repeal. When before taken up, a majority voted for two bills, and they are accordingly reported, and now the two are to be united. This, said he, is directing the Senate to vote a certain way, because this House saw it right. This was a kind of coercion which would oblige them (if they support their independence, which they certainly will) to reject the repeal. This, he said, was a spirit which every gentleman in the House felt. He therefore hoped there would be two bills.
Mr. Gallatin did not conceive this a question on the constitution; it was not on the power of the House as to the subject of appropriation, but merely on connecting the two bills. He conceived it perfectly right and proper to connect them, because the subject of them was the same. It was not novel: appropriation and repeal had before been connected. Indeed, he thought it improper to hold the Senate in any consideration at all. He should not be guided by any apprehensions of what they would do. The gentleman last up had said, it was unfair to connect them, as it would oblige members who opposed one to vote for both. Now, a majority will always decide, and those in the minority will always be affected. That gentleman would rather take a question on each; but Mr. G. said he would rather on both together. But both will not be material, more than in a certain degree. He further observed that a decision had been come to to keep the subjects apart. This, Mr. G. said, was only in order to give leave to the committee to report one or two bills. But that could not now affect the decision. The House might now do as they pleased. He looked upon the first act of the law as rather explanatory of the other. A law passed last year for the equipment of the frigates. The first law expired as to the manning them. It is therefore only for fear the word "equipment" should be so construed as to mean "manning," that we wish a connection of these bills.
He thought it more candid and fair to have both the objects before the Senate at one time than to separate them. If they think it an attack upon their privileges they would act consistently therewith.
Mr. Williams could not see where the difference was, whether the bills were apart or not. He was sorry any jealousy should be discovered towards another branch; if the amendment were to go to the Senate they had power to reject any part. The next Congress would take a view of the subject, and do what they thought right, as the frigates would not be fit to be manned till then.
Mr. Buck again repeated his objections to uniting the bills.
Mr. N. Smith thought there could be no good reasons for uniting the bills. There had not yet been any appropriation made, and the money was nearly expended; he thought the appropriation should be passed immediately, as he had no doubt but both Houses would ultimately unite in this object. If, therefore, any money was to be appropriated, let it be done, and then if the House thought proper to agree to the repeal, it could be done, as no delay ought to be made.
The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) said the other day, that he would not, under any situation, vote the supply until he knew whether there was any intention to fit them for sea or not. This, Mr. S. thought the principal point; but except that gentleman, with others, thought the ships were to remain in the same situation as at present, it certainly was necessary to agree to the appropriations; this was voted on all hands, though some could not agree to go all lengths. He did not believe many could be found in the House who would wish them to remain and rot on the stocks; but for gentlemen to say they would not agree to grant the supply except the other part was repealed, he thought wrong. It was true, they had the power to withhold even appropriations for the President's salary, Senate, &c., but if such opposition was supported, Government could not long exist. That House had power over the Senate, and, vice versa, the Senate over that House—each had a right to think and do as they pleased, but it would be wrong in one to curtail the privilege of the other by an ill-timed opposition; this was merely to show a spleen which could not but be to the detriment and delay of business.
Mr. W. Smith rose to answer some observations made by Mr. Gallatin and Mr. Venable, and proceeded to show the impropriety of tacking the bills; he said it would produce insurmountable difficulties. He never could agree to this tortus discordans being sent up to the Senate.
Mr. Venable answered. The question was then put for tacking the two bills, and carried, ayes 41, noes 36.
The committee then rose, and the House took up the amendments reported by the Committee of the Whole. Whereupon, the first amendment reported by the Committee of the Whole House, for adding a new section, to be the second section of the said bill, being read, in the words following, to wit:
"And be it further enacted, That the sum of —— dollars be, and the same is hereby appropriated for the purpose of finishing the frigates now building, called the United States, Constitution, and Constellation; and that the same be paid out of the surplus of revenue and income, which may accrue to the end of the year one thousand seven hundred and ninety-seven, after satisfying the objects for which appropriations have been heretofore made."
Mr. W. Smith said, as the question would first be taken on the amendment and then upon the resolution as amended, a member who wished to vote for the finishing of the frigates, but not for the repeal, would not have an opportunity of showing his sentiments by the yeas and nays. In order that members who thought with him might have an opportunity of showing their vote, he called for the previous question upon the proposition.
The Speaker declaring that this motion was not in order, Mr. W. Smith called for the yeas and nays upon the amendment.
Mr. Sitgreaves said, rather than not obtain an appropriation for finishing the frigates, he should vote in favor of the amendment, though he was of the same opinion with the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. W. Smith) as to the unfairness of the proceeding.
Mr. Dent was of the same opinion.
Mr. Muhlenberg said as the amendment stood annexed to the other bill, he should vote against it; though, if the subject had continued in a separate bill, he should have voted in favor of it.
The question was then taken on the amendment, and decided in the affirmative, 59 to 25, as follows:
Yeas.—Theodorus Bailey, Abraham Baldwin, David Bard, Thomas Blount, Nathan Bryan, Dempsey Burges, Thomas Claiborne, John Clopton, Joshua Coit, Isaac Coles, William Cooper, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, William Findlay, Jesse Franklin, Nathaniel Freeman, jr., Albert Gallatin, Ezekiel Gilbert, James Gillespie, Henry Glenn, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, Carter B. Harrison, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, John Wilkes Kittera, George Leonard, Edward Livingston, Matthew Locke, Samuel Lyman, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, James Madison, John Milledge, Andrew Moore, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, John Page, John Patton, John Richards, Robert Rutherford, John S. Sherburne, Samuel Sitgreaves, Thompson J. Skinner, Jeremiah Smith, Israel Smith, Isaac Smith, Richard Sprigg, jr., Thomas Sprigg, Zephaniah Swift, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Abraham Venable, John Williams, and Richard Winn.
Nays.—Theophilus Bradbury, Daniel Buck, Samuel W. Dana, James Davenport, George Ege, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, Robert Goodloe Harper, Thomas Hartley, John Heath, William Hindman, Francis Malbone, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, Josiah Parker, John Read, Samuel Sewall, Nathaniel Smith, Samuel Smith, William Smith, John Swanwick, George Thatcher, and Peleg Wadsworth.
The bill was then recommitted to a Committee of the Whole, in order to have the blank for the sum to be appropriated for finishing the vessels inserted, and was filled with $172,000.