Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 2 (of 16)

by United States. Congress

Saturday, February 25.

Suability of States.

On motion of Mr. Harper, the House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, on the report of the select committee on the resolution sent from the Senate, authorizing the President to make inquiry of certain States whether they had adopted the proposed amendment to the constitution with respect to the suability of States.

The select committee did not confine themselves to this single amendment, as reported from the Senate, but went back to the year 1789, when twelve amendments were proposed by Congress; for though they state eleven States out of fourteen had ratified ten of these amendments in the year 1791, yet they were of opinion that a doubt might arise whether eleven States ought to be considered as the three-fourths of fourteen; they therefore wished the President to be requested to make inquiry also from the non-ratifying States on the subject of these ten amendments.

Mr. Nicholas said, the resolution of itself was only exceptionable as it had connection with the statement which went before it, in which it was made a question whether the ten last amendments of the twelve proposed by Congress to the States in March, 1789, were ever made part of the constitution. He did not wish a doubt to be expressed on this subject. This doubt, in the opinion of the committee, it seemed, rested on a supposition that eleven were not three-fourths of fourteen. He could not conceive how any doubt could arise on this subject, since it must be acknowledged by every one that eleven was more than three-fourths of fourteen. If the objection arose from fourteen not being divisible in equal fourth parts, it was an objection to the constitution as originally made. It was formed by thirteen States, which was no more divisible into fourths than fourteen. On this ground, an amendment could never have been made to the constitution. He hoped the Chairman of the committee would give them some information on the subject.

Mr. Harper said, it was not of much importance whether the committee had doubts, or whether those doubts were well founded. The committee stated they had these doubts. He had them; not whether eleven was three-fourths of fourteen, according to arithmetical calculation—every school boy knew, that, in that view, eleven was more than three-fourths of fourteen; but it was, whether you could make a division of States. He believed it could not be done; he believed there must be twelve ratifying States to be three-fourths, as intended by the constitution, because that number would be three-fourths of sixteen, which was the nearest number to fourteen capable of four equal divisions. Whether this doubt was well founded or not, there could be no harm in directing the inquiry to be made; it would be made as soon for thirteen amendments as for one, and if any other State should have ratified the ten amendments in question, all doubt would be removed. Mr. H. noticed an error or two which had escaped the committee in their report.

Mr. Gallatin said, the resolution under consideration went to direct the President to apply to all those States, by whom, as far as can be known from the official documents heretofore transmitted, all or any of the amendments at any time proposed by Congress still remained to be ratified. There could be no occasion to make the inquiry with respect to all these amendments, unless it were taken for granted that none of them had yet been ratified. He was, therefore, of opinion, with the gentleman from Virginia, that such an application would be very improper, as bringing the ten last amendments into doubt, which he believed to be as much a part of the constitution as any other article in it; he also thought them a very valuable part, and not to be trifled with.

But, upon what ground, said Mr. G., do the advocates of this report prove that 11 is not three-fourths of 14? The idea was so novel that he could scarcely understand what principle they adopted in order to create a doubt on their minds on this subject. To him the position that 11 was more than three-fourths of fourteen appeared to be one of those self-evident axioms which hardly admit of a proof. The principle on which the doubt arose must be so very nice, so abstract, that he did not know whether he was capable of comprehending it. Anxious as he was to avoid saying any thing which might be construed as misstatement, he would, however, attempt to analyze what he conceived to be the ground of the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. Harper.)

It appeared to him that that gentleman thought three-fourths in itself was not a fraction of the unit, was not a number conveying to the mind the simple idea of a fraction; but that it was a compound of fractions, and that the only way by which the idea of three-fourths could be conceived was by a decomposition. Because the idea of three-fourths was by our numerical arithmetic expressed by the two figures 3/4, that gentleman was unable to conceive what it meant except by decomposition, by dividing the unit into four equal parts and multiplying the result by 3. And if that idea of three-fourths had happened to be expressed by the fraction nine-twelfths, (which was the same thing as three-fourths,) that gentleman could not have conceived it except by dividing in the first place the unit into twelve parts and then multiplying the result by nine. In fact he denied the existence of any number, part of a unit, except as it consisted of an aggregate of such parts as the unit could exactly be divided into.

Thus, when speaking of fourteen States, although he (Mr. Gallatin) could at once understand that three-fourths of fourteen was ten-and-a-half, and, therefore, (admitting, as he did together with that gentleman, that the vote of a State was indivisible) that eleven States were more than three-fourths of fourteen, the gentleman from South Carolina proceeded in a different way. The fourth part of fourteen being three-and-a-half, he says that, as a State cannot be divided, you must take four States instead of three-and-a-half for the fourth part of fourteen, and then multiplying these four States by three, in order to get the three-fourths, he concludes that twelve States are three-quarters of fourteen—that the twelve States out of fourteen are necessary to ratify the amendments. He believed the gentleman would allow that he had not misstated his opinion.

Let us now see, said Mr. G., how this doctrine will operate. It would go to prove, in some instances, that three-fourths of a number is greater than the whole. Suppose, for instance, the case of five States. One-fourth of five is 1-1/4; but as the vote of a State cannot be divided, you must call it two; or, as the gentleman expressed it, five not being divisible into four equal parts, you must take the nearest number to five capable of such division, that is to say 8, the fourth part of which is two; two, therefore, must be considered as the fourth part of five States, and as three multiplied by two is six, it follows, according to that gentleman's doctrine, that the three-fourths of five is six! Suppose that, in the constitution, instead of the expression three-fourths, it had been said that nine-twelfths were necessary. The number of States when the constitution was framed was thirteen. In that case one-twelfth of thirteen being one and one-twelfth, you must, the vote of a State being indivisible, call it two; so that in that way of reckoning, nine-twelfths (which is the same thing as three-fourths) of 13 is 18! Consequently, the consent of eighteen States would have been necessary in order to ratify any amendment to the constitution of a nation consisting only of 13 States.

Let us, said he, examine a little farther. The same part of the constitution which provides for amendments of the constitution, says, that an amendment shall be proposed by two-thirds of both Houses of Congress; but he supposed the vote of a man was no more divisible than that of a State. He wished to know, therefore, how the gentleman would, on his principle, calculate what were two-thirds of the members present when their whole number was not divisible by three?

In making treaties he wished to know what was meant by two-thirds of the members of the Senate present? If the number present happened not to be divisible by three, would that gentleman say, that, in that case, the next number above the number present must be taken, which would be divisible by three, and that if two-thirds of that number did not concur in the vote for the treaty, no treaty should be ratified? On that principle, in some instances, a greater proportion of the Senate would be necessary to ratify a treaty than had been usually understood, according to the generally received opinion of the sense of the constitution in this respect.

Upon the whole, he believed it would be best to reject the report, as, besides the objections alluded to, it was confessedly inaccurate in some of its parts, and adopt the resolution sent from the Senate, which applied only to the amendment respecting the suability of States. If the House meant to go any further, they might introduce the first and second amendments proposed at the same time with the other ten, but which had not yet been ratified.

Mr. Harper said, he would add a word or two to what he had already offered on this subject. He did not know whether the House thought with him on this subject, that it was a doubtful point whether the ten amendments in question had been ratified according to the sense of the constitution. If they did, they would of course, vote for the report. The gentleman from Pennsylvania, he acknowledged, had not only shown his knowledge in arithmetic, but also his wit, which had not until now been brought before them. In the enjoyment of the last he had participated in common with the House.

Mr. Dayton (the Speaker) was in favor of rejecting the resolution reported by the select committee, as it embraced too many objects, and held out a kind of invitation for States to come forward and propose amendments to the constitution. He trusted the first of the amendments, proposed in 1789, relative to the proportion of representation, never would be agreed to, as it would have extremely mischievous effects. Indeed, if any thing were done with respect to that amendment, he should think it ought to be to request those States which have not adopted it, not to do it, and those who have agreed to it, to revoke their vote in favor of it.

The question was then taken on the resolution reported, and negatived, without division.

The resolution was as follows:

"Resolved, That the President of the United States be requested to apply, as speedily as may be, to all those States, by which, as far as can be known from the official documents heretofore transmitted, all or any of the amendments, at any time proposed by Congress, still remains to be ratified; and to obtain from them authentic information of the proceedings had by them, respectively, on the subject of those amendments, or any of them."

The question was then taken on the resolution of the Senate, and agreed to. It was as follows:

"Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the President be requested to adopt some speedy and effectual means of obtaining information from the States of Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, and South Carolina, whether they have ratified the amendment proposed by Congress to the constitution, concerning the suability of States: If they have, to obtain the proper evidences thereof."

Accommodation of the President.

On motion of Mr. Gallatin, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill to accommodate the President of the United States; when

Mr. Henderson said, he wished for information on this subject, as he had not sufficient to convince him of the propriety of granting 14,000 dollars, in addition to the furniture now in possession of the President; he therefore moved to strike out the 14,000, for the purpose of inserting 5,000. The bill informed them that this sum, in addition to what might arise from the sale of such of the present furniture as may be decayed, out of repair, or unfit for use, was to be laid out in furnishing the household for the President. It was very lately that they had received a proposition from the Senate to advance the salary of the President 5,000 dollars; the bill was rejected by that House. It appeared to him that this bill went to effect the same thing in a different way. If the object was merely to furnish the household of the President, he thought a much less sum would be adequate to that purpose. He thought 5,000, with the proceeds of the sale of such of the present furniture as was unfit for service, might be sufficient. He had no doubt that the sum would make the furniture of the President for four years to come equal to what it had been for four years past.

Mr. Nicholas wished the gentleman would leave the sum blank, instead of inserting 5,000.

Mr. Henderson consented.

The question was taken, and negatived—42 to 39.

The committee then rose, and the House having taken up the subject—

Mr. Nicholas said, as a majority of the House was against striking out this sum, he wished to have some information why this sum was fixed upon, and for what purpose it was to be applied. No one wished more than he did to place the President in a situation conformable to his station; but according to his information, this sum was more than was given to the present President on his entering upon the office, though there remained the whole of the furniture, most of which was worth as much at this time as it was when first purchased.

Mr. Sitgreaves said, he would give to the gentleman all the information which he had on the subject. In the year 1778 or 1779, by a resolution, of the old Congress, an household was established for the President of Congress. This remained until the present Government went into operation in the year 1789. It was then resolved, that Mr. Osgood should be requested to fit up the House in a proper manner for the reception of the President of the United States. In that year the law passed for compensating the President of the United States, which enacted that a salary of 25,000 dollars should be allowed him, together with the use of the furniture then in his possession belonging to the United States. This furniture cost the United States 13,657 dollars, 83 cents. During the period from 1779, when the household was first established until 1789, when the President of the United States entered upon his office, the furniture which had been purchased for the President by Congress, was so much decayed, that it required nearly 14,000 dollars to replenish it. It was the opinion of the joint committee, therefore, that in a lapse of eight years, viz: from 1789 to the present time, the furniture then purchased must have experienced equal dilapidation and decay, and that a sum at least as large as was then allowed (particularly when it was considered that the price of goods was very much advanced since that time) should now be allowed for putting the present household upon the same footing of respectability and convenience with that at New York in 1789. Mr. S. did not know that he could give any further information on the subject. It was a matter of notoriety that a great part of the goods then purchased were worn out and destroyed; such as the household linen, crockery ware, &c., and that the President had renewed them at his own expense; insomuch that if he were to take out of the House the furniture which he had supplied, there would little remain in it besides tables, chairs, bedsteads, and a few such articles; since all the carpets and ornamental furniture of the House had been purchased by himself.

Whilst he was up, he would wish to obviate the only objection which had been adduced to this bill. The gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Henderson) had supposed that this allowance was meant to carry into effect what had been rejected in another way, alluding to the proposed advance of salary. That gentleman might see a very obvious distinction between the two things. If $5,000 had been added to the salary of the President, he could have disposed of it as he pleased; but the money now proposed to be granted, was to be employed in the purchase of furniture, &c., which would remain the property of the United States, and would devolve upon the next President. Mr. S. said, he would add, that in the joint committee there was not a dissenting voice to the proposition, and he hoped there would not be one in the House.

The question was put for engrossing the bill for a third reading, and carried, there being fifty votes in favor of it. This day and Monday were mentioned for the third reading; the question was carried for the most distant day, 40 to 35.