Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 2 (of 16)

by United States. Congress

Thursday, December 29.

George Hancock, from Virginia, appeared, and took his seat.

Canadian Refugees.

Mr. Williams moved for the order of the day, that the House resolve itself into a committee on the reports of committees to whom were referred the petitions of sundry refugees from Canada and Nova Scotia.

The first resolution read from the last report of the select committee on this subject, was in these words:

"Resolved, That the prayer of the Petitioners, Joseph Green and others, from Canada, praying a bounty in lands and other pay, for services rendered in the late war with Great Britain, ought not to be granted."

This resolution was agreed to. The second was thus:

"Resolved, That a tract of land, not exceeding —— acres, be laid off north-west of the Ohio River, beginning at the mouth of the Great Miami, and extending down the Ohio, not exceeding three times the breadth in length, be immediately appropriated to compensate the refugees from the British provinces of Canada and Nova Scotia, pursuant to the resolves of Congress of the 23d of April, 1783, and the 13th April, 1785."

Mr. Williams hoped the situation of the land would not be mentioned in the resolution; there were many circumstances that would render it unnecessary and improper.

Mr. Hartley wished to know where the land was to be, because the value of the land in different places was various; he thought they ought to have land: he would not be thought to object to the resolution.

Mr. Venable did not think it necessary to mention at this time what land should be appropriated for this purpose. A bill would be introduced in a few days, it could then be determined. If there were objections to appropriate the land mentioned, he hoped gentlemen would then propose a spot that would suit every conveniency better. These people, he said, ought to be satisfied: it was time they were.

Mr. Dayton said, that the Chairman of the committee said there was no land near Lake Erie of that description belonging to the United States; he wished to know what foundation the assertion had?

Mr. Greenup said, the committee had made what inquiry they could on the subject, of persons well informed, who told them there was no land belonging to the United States of that description.

Mr. Sitgreaves would vote for striking out the clause as it stood, not from any knowledge he had on the justice of the claims, but, if just, satisfaction should be given. The committee had not reported as to the value of land necessary to be given; the value of land was proportioned to its different qualities and location; he thought it would be as well for these people, to give them military land warrants, and let them locate by lot: this had heretofore been the method, and he thought it would be as advantageous to them as any, and avoid many difficulties with respect to the grant.

Mr. Macon hoped the question would be divided; he liked the proposition of the gentleman last up, to strike out, and insert the words proposed; he therefore would wish the committee to rise, and report progress; or, if the House do not adopt the substitute, he hoped it would be recommitted.

Mr. Dayton moved to strike out the words relative to location, and substitute the following resolution:

"Resolved, That provision ought to be made by law for granting donations of land to Canadian and Nova Scotia refugees, in conformity to the resolves of Congress of the 23d of April, 1783, and the 13th of April, 1785."

This resolution was adopted.

The third was—

"Resolved, That five hundred acres of land be granted to each refugee from Canada and Nova Scotia."

This resolution was attended with three explanatory restrictions. It passed, and the Chairman read the first of these rules, which was, "that the applicant shall make proof, before some Court of record, of his actual residence in one of the provinces aforesaid, previous to the —— day of ——."

Mr. Greenup supposed this was meant merely as the outlines of a plan to be completed when the bill was brought in; at this time it was necessary that instruction should be given to the committee that they may bring in a bill consistent with the will of the House.

Mr. Dayton objected to this, and the two following clauses. He objected also to the resolution for an indiscriminate grant of five hundred acres of land to each refugee. Some of these people would be found to deserve more and some less, in proportion to their exertion and sufferings. Some might have lost large property, or have had large families. If Mr. Dayton had observed what the committee were doing, he would have objected to the passing of that clause. He likewise opposed the present one. This clause and the remaining two were negatived.

The Committee of the Whole then rose. The Chairman reported progress. The House took up the report. The first resolution and the second, as altered in the committee, were agreed to.

The question on the third resolution was then put.

Mr. Macon thought that it would be exceedingly improper to grant an equal quantity to each; it ought to be entirely circumstantial.

Mr. Greenup was of the same opinion; he said some of these people had suffered more than others. The circumstances of some were such that they were in irons, in close confinement twelve or fourteen months, many of them had the warrant signed for their execution, and a variety of cruelties were exercised: these distresses required consideration.

Mr. Baldwin hoped it would be struck out; the House should not go into particulars of the quantity to be given, or the circumstances of the persons; he had seen great difficulty attending these specifications. He did not like this loose way of doing business; they need not open land offices for that purpose; some way would be found out to give the people satisfaction.

Mr. Williams hoped the committee would not be restricted.

The question on the third resolution was then put, and lost.

A committee was then appointed of Messrs. Gilman, Williams, and Greenup, with instructions to bring in a bill pursuant to the resolutions as amended.

Kidnapping Negroes.

Mr. Swanwick called the order of the day on a report of the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures, made the last session, on a memorial from the State of Delaware, respecting the kidnapping of negroes and mulattoes. The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the subject.

Mr. Swanwick said, that there was a mischievous practice in use of carrying these people away from the place of their residence, by masters of vessels, and selling them in other parts. The plan of the committee was to get instructions from the House to bring in a bill making it necessary for every master of a vessel to have a certificate of the number and situation of any negroes or mulattoes he may have on board. He hoped the measure would not at all be opposed, as it only prevented thefts in this case.

Mr. Coit wished to know whether it was necessary for the United States to intermeddle with this? He wished the report had been more satisfactory, and stated the principles upon which it was formed with more precision. The evil, he doubted not, existed, but the law might create a greater evil than that it was intended to cure. It appeared to him that the laws in the several States were fully adequate to the subject without further provision; he was not ready to give a vote on it either way at present.

Mr. Swanwick said, the report was grounded on an application from the Legislature of Delaware. [Mr. S. here read the memorial from that State to Congress.] The practice, he said, was very injurious and dangerous to that State, and he hoped a remedy would be attempted, as it was in the power of Congress to provide one by this method; some of the States had made an attempt to remedy this evil, but their laws were broken with impunity. If the resolution of the committee passed, he should move that the committee bring in a bill in pursuance thereto.

Mr. Swanwick said, the laws of the different States forbade the stealing of negroes; but they had no remedy that would take effect out of their own State: and although each had effect in their own State, yet they had no power on the water. The intention of the present measure was to oblige masters of vessels, when they cleared out of any ports in the Delaware, when they took any negro or mulatto on board, to have a certificate of their being free. The situation of the State of Delaware, communicating with both the Delaware and Chesapeake, was, in this respect, particularly exposed to insult and injury; but this remedy, he thought, would be effectual. The gentleman last up wished the committee to rise, in order to recommit it: he should vote for it if the gentleman was willing to add, "to bring in a bill." The gentleman was in the committee, if he had stated his objections there, it might have saved time.

Mr. Murray wished to know what was fully meant by the idea of preventing kidnapping. He confessed he did not rightly understand the meaning of the word. Was the intention of the committee to have reference to the taking of free negroes and selling them as slaves, or the taking slaves to make them free?

Mr. Swanwick said it was intended to prevent both evils. It was intended to prevent their being stolen from their masters; and, also, to prevent the power of the master taking them to the other States to sell them. This measure, he thought, would prevent both. The State of Maryland had taken measures to prevent it themselves; they had made it a heavy penalty to take a negro out of the State; but that is not effectual to prevent the evil now complained of. This was meant to prevent the practice of examining ships before they sailed and when they arrived.

Mr. W. Smith wished the committee to rise; not with a view of recommitting the report, but to get rid of the business altogether. The subject, he said, involved many serious questions; it required very serious consideration, and he wished it had never come up. It was a question with him how far Congress had a right to meddle with it at all. He felt alarmed on the subject as brought from that State. He considered it as a kind of entering-wedge, as a gentleman had lately said, on another occasion. It was altogether a municipal regulation, and not at all connected with trade or commerce, and therefore ought to be left to the State Legislatures to settle. He did not think the constitution allowed that House to act in it.

Gentlemen had said, that the laws of the States took no effect on the waters. This, he thought, was founded on a mistake. The laws of the States could prevent robbery on water as well as on land, if within the jurisdiction of the United States. He hoped the committee would rise, and dismiss the subject.

Mr. Isaac Smith thought the gentleman knew not the proper meaning of the report. It was not to make a law against stealing merely, but against its being done successfully; many instances, he said, had occurred, where they had been hid many days on board the ships and taken away in the night to the West Indies, and other parts of the world to sell them. It was impossible that the existing laws of the States should prevent this fraudulent practice: the intent of this law was to prevent this practice; by being examined, and forced to take certificates along with them, it could not be easily done. The particulars of the remedy would be more readily seen when the bill was brought in; it would explain itself; it then might be modified, altered, or rejected altogether. He thought it could give no offence or cause of alarm to any gentleman; and he was sure it was no way contrary to the constitution.

Mr. Macon wished the committee to rise, and not have leave to sit again. He began to see more of the impropriety of the measure than before, and for the same reasons as the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. Smith.)

Mr. Swanwick said, this House had ascertained a certain proof, by which our seamen are known, by giving them a certificate of their citizenship, specifying their person and freedom, which had operated against impressment: and was it not equally necessary, and would it not be equally competent, to protect a man from injuries to which his color has exposed him? Our unfortunate negroes and mulattoes are exposed by their color to much insult. In some places, he said, they were so exposed, that color alone was evidence of slavery. He would not enter into the question, whether all ought to be free, because it was not immediately before the House; but if these people were black or white, if free, they ought to be protected in the enjoyment of their freedom, not only by State Legislatures but by the General Government.

Mr. Murray did not expect to have raised the sensibility of the gentleman last up. It really arose from his ignorance, he said. He wished to know the origin of the matter; he did not know whether it had originated in a memorial, or whether it came from the humanity of some patriotic member, unsolicited. Great and manifold evils did exist in this point; he meant to make a motion on the subject, as Maryland felt heavily from the practice. He confessed he was not sufficiently acquainted with the English language to know the proper meaning of the word kidnapping; he therefore wished to know if it extended to the object he had in view. He declared he did not wish to encourage the harboring of negroes; far from it; he wished to prevent it. He did not think the law extended far enough on that point; at present, negroes, through the influence of their own minds, or the insinuations of others, or both, frequently leave their masters, and are harbored by other persons. The law takes no notice of this, except it can be proved that the negro is some person's property, and has absconded: this is very difficult to prove; therefore great evils attend its lenity. 'Tis true, if it can be proved that the negro has absconded and was harbored, there was a very heavy penalty inflicted; but, he said, this was difficult to prove. This, he owned, was his insinuation, as the gentleman termed it; and upon this subject he meant to claim the attention of the House. This evil, he said, might arise from the false philosophy and misplaced philanthropy of the advocates of emancipation. He was ever willing to give the question a fair trial, and thought himself bound to thank the gentleman for his extreme benevolence in advocating it.

Mr. Swanwick, to satisfy the gentleman from Maryland, told him, that the subject came before the House from the State of Delaware.

Mr. W. Smith said, he did not know how far the committee should go, he should not vote for the matter to go into the committee. He said, it was that kind of business which, by the constitution, was to be left to the different States, he could not agree to the subject going any further. The observations of the gentleman from Pennsylvania had convinced him that that House ought not to interfere with the individual States on the subject; the interests and policy of the different States were so various, that it would be a dangerous thing to meddle with. He thought it an improper question for discussion; he conceived it would be sound policy not to touch it in that House. The gentleman had gone too far to make use of the word emancipation. He feared lest the use of it should spread an alarm through some of the States. It might imperceptibly lead from step to step till it ends in mischief.

Mr. Nicholas hoped the business would not be dismissed. We, said Mr. N., who reside in the Southern States, are unfortunately possessed of such a kind of property as has a considerable odium attached to it; but, if we unfortunately hold slaves, we ought not to contribute to the making slaves of free men, but I would wish to establish them in their freedom. If we can give relief as the thing exists, let it be; by all means do it, whether it incur the pleasure or displeasure of some of the slaveholders. He hoped the subject would have full investigation.

The question was then put for the committee to rise. Fifty-four members rising in the affirmative, it was carried.

Mr. Sitgreaves then moved for the Committee of the Whole to be discharged from the further consideration of the report; this, he said, was in order to make way for another motion to refer it back to the committee, to report by bill or otherwise.

The question was put, and the committee discharged.

Mr. Swanwick moved that the business be recommitted to the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures, to report by bill or otherwise.

Mr. Coit wished the subject to be postponed for further consideration before it was sent to the committee. He had doubts as to the propriety of sending it at all. He thought it had not had that discussion a subject so important required.

Mr. W. Smith said, he believed this was the first time it was considered in the House. It had been tried in a committee but never taken up by the House, and now gentlemen wished to send it back to the committee, with instructions to bring in a bill. The Committee of Commerce and Manufactures was considerably deranged since last session, when this business came before them; many new members were added, and it required more information before it could come to the conclusion prescribed.

Mr. Sitgreaves said, if any one good purpose could be derived to the House or to the gentlemen, he would not oppose it; but he was at a loss to know what good object could be attained by a delay. With respect to what had been said by the gentleman, (Mr. Smith,) that the committee were forced to bring in a bill, he was surprised that such an idea should be formed. If that committee report a bill, this House is not even pledged to pass it. When the subject is sent to the committee with that instruction, can it be conceived that committee is forced to report a bill? There is no such thing intended nor included in the words, as either this House should be pledged to pass a bill, or that the committee should report one. The object is, that the House, through the medium of the committee, should have a plan prepared for their consideration, and the word "otherwise" leaves the committee to exercise its own discretion as to the report.

The gentleman from Connecticut, with a prudence and consistency highly becoming, wishes time to think on the subject. But how is that gentleman to have foundation for his reflections until a bill is drawn? Mr. S. did not know what were the resources of that gentleman's mind, but for himself, he must own that in all the attitudes in which this subject had presented itself, he could not distinctly see the plan. One gentleman had said there was no remedy the United States could apply but what was incompatible with the laws of the individual States. Mr. S. presumed that until he saw the mode to be adopted, he could not say whether it was easy or difficult. On the whole, he thought to postpone the subject could answer no good end, while it might delay the object, and do injury.

Mr. Coit said, very probably the resources of his mind may not be equal to that gentleman's, he therefore wished the subject to be delayed that he might have time to get into the knowledge of the business.

Mr. Coit's motion for postponement was then put and carried—yeas 46, nays 30.

Hugh Lawson White.

Mr. Blount then called for the order of the day on the report of the Secretary of War on the petition of Hugh Lawson White, a soldier under General Sevier, against the Indians. The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole.

The following report from the Committee of Claims was then read:

That the claim set forth in the said petition, is intended to establish a principle that will apply to the whole of the militia which were called out under Brigadier General Sevier, in 1793, to act offensively against certain Indians south-west of the Ohio.

That the expedition against these Indians, as appears from the muster-rolls, comprehended a period of above five months, or from the 22d July to 31st December, 1793.

That it was undertaken without authority derived from the President, under the laws of the United States, and for the avowed purpose of carrying the war into the Cherokee country.

That the tenor of the instructions from the Department of War to the Governor of the South-western Territory forbade offensive operations.

Having given these facts, it may be proper to add, that it appears, by a recurrence to official papers, that the Indians had greatly perplexed and harassed by thefts and murders, the frontier inhabitants of Tennessee; and previous to the service, for which compensation is demanded, had shown themselves in considerable force, and killed at two stations (one of them within seven miles of Knoxville) fifteen persons, including women and children: that it must rest with Congress to judge how far these aggressions of Indians, and such other circumstances as can be adduced to the parties, constitute a case of imminent danger, or the expedition a just and necessary measure.

Mr. A. Jackson[5] said, by a recurrence to the papers just read, he doubted not it would appear evident, that the measures pursued on the occasion alluded to were both just and necessary. When it was seen that war was waged upon the State, that the knife and the tomahawk were held over the heads of women and children, that peaceable citizens were murdered, it was time to make resistance. Some of the assertions of the Secretary at War, he said, were not founded in fact; particularly with respect to the expedition being undertaken for the avowed purpose of carrying the war into the Cherokee country; indeed they were contradicted by a reference to General Smith's letter to the Secretary of War. He trusted it would not be presuming too much, when he said, from being an inhabitant of the country, he had some knowledge of this business. From June to the end of October, he said, the militia acted entirely on the defensive, when twelve hundred Indians came upon them and carried their station, and threatened to carry the seat of Government. In such a state, said Mr. J., would the Secretary (upon whom the Executive power rested, in the absence of the Governor) have been justified, had he not adopted the measure he did of pursuing the enemy? He believed he would not; that the expedition was just and necessary, and that, therefore, the claim of Mr. White ought to be granted.

He therefore proposed a resolution to the following effect:

"Resolved, That General Sevier's expedition into the Cherokee Nation, in the year 1793, was a just and necessary measure, and that provision ought to be made by law for paying the expenses thereof."

Mr. Harper said, this appeared to be a subject of considerable importance; he hoped the resolution would, for the present, lie on the table. He therefore moved that the committee rise and ask leave to sit again.

Mr. Coit said, the report wanted some more preparation before it should have come before the House; he would therefore move that it be referred to the Committee of Claims; he knew of no reason against this reference, as many reports from Heads of Departments had been so referred.

Mr. Blount hoped the motion would not prevail. The expedient of referring it to the Secretary at War was resorted to, when it first came before the House. He hoped now it would not be deferred, but decided on. He thought the Committee of Claims, from having once had it before the House, knew as much of the case as they could know, and perhaps all was included in this report.

Mr. D. Foster made the same observations in effect as Mr. Blount.

Mr. Coit said, gentlemen had not given a shadow of a reason why it should not be referred to that committee.

Mr. Jackson owned he was not very well acquainted with the rules of the House, but from the best idea he could form, it was a very circuitous way of doing business. Why now refer it to the Committee of Claims, when all the facts are stated in this report, he knew not. If this was the usual mode of doing business, he hoped it would not be referred.

Mr. W. Lyman thought, the time it was under consideration before, when referred to the Secretary at War, was the time to have thought of referring it to that committee; but now it was too late; now the House had a report before it. It appeared to him a mere formality. It looks like throwing the business out. He had not made up his mind which way he should vote, but he thought one report was sufficient; he, therefore, hoped it would come under consideration.

Mr. Blount said, when he first presented the petition, he moved it to be referred to the Committee of Claims; it was then rejected, and sent to the Secretary at War.

The Committee rose, and obtained leave to sit again.