Thursday, March 2.
The bill for the relief of American seamen was read the third time and passed.
Military Appropriations.
On the motion of Mr. W. Smith, the House went into a committee of the Whole on the bill making appropriation for the Military Establishment, when the following items were agreed to without debate:
| For the payment of the army, | $256,450 |
| For the subsistence of the officers, | 47,395 |
| For the subsistence of the non-commissioned officers and privates, | 245,283 |
| For forage, | 14,904 |
| For clothing, | 83,050 |
Mr. W. Smith then proposed to insert a new item, in consequence of the bill just passed, "For the purchase of horses and the equipment of the cavalry, $16,085."
Mr. Gallatin said, the items which had been agreed to were upon the ground of an increase of 126 dragoons which was not in the former bill. The item now under consideration went to provide horses and equipments for an additional company of cavalry. It appeared that this company was heretofore without either, so that they must have been employed as dismounted dragoons; and if they now appropriated the sum before them, they would, in fact, add a company of horse to the establishment. He believed it to be the general opinion that they had cavalry sufficient at present; indeed, it was the opinion of a large majority of that House that none were necessary; but if they did appropriate for any, he thought they ought not to go beyond the present establishment.
Mr. W. Smith said, if they refused to make the appropriation under consideration, they declared that one of the two companies of cavalry should act as infantry. By the bill passed yesterday, it was left altogether to the option of the President to employ them either as cavalry or infantry: but if this appropriation was withheld, he would be under the necessity of employing them as infantry only, and this House would now exercise a discretion which only yesterday they had vested in the Executive.
It would be observed, that, in the message of the President, he had fully stated the reasons why dragoons would be requisite. The business upon which one of the companies was at present employed was to escort the Commissioners employed in running the boundary lines betwixt the territory of the United States and the Indians; the other was indispensable for the protection of the frontiers.
What, Mr. S. asked, would be the consequence of refusing this appropriation? One of the companies of dragoons would be obliged to act as infantry, and Government would be compelled to employ militia-horse at a great expense. If this was economy, he was mistaken in his ideas of economy. The sum was conformable to the estimate which he had received from the War Office.
Mr. Hartley was in favor of the appropriation, that the President might be at full liberty to employ the troops on foot or on horse-back, according as the service might require.
Mr. Nicholas thought, while they were making appropriations, this subject might as well be included. If these men were to be kept, they ought to be properly equipped. He said it was the opinion of the President and the Secretary of War that cavalry was necessary, and therefore he had concluded it would be proper, and wished them to be kept up, so as to be called into service whenever necessary.
Mr. Milledge thought there was great need of cavalry; it would be an object of policy, as, by information he had received from the Governor of Georgia, (which he had in his hand, and which was corroborated by a late Governor,) horse were absolutely necessary—he thought three companies—on the frontier. He therefore was in favor of the appropriation.
Mr. Varnum had no doubt but the gentleman from Georgia, and every gentleman in the House, would be glad to have horse and infantry too kept up in their State: every part would be glad to have the public money expended upon it. He could not see why a body of cavalry should be kept up in a time of peace. He thought the Legislature had as good a right to judge as any person, notwithstanding the authorities produced to sanction the appropriation. Mr. V. had no doubt, if this was granted, that application would soon be made again for a similar purpose. He hoped this appropriation would not take place; it would be a small saving, and might as well be made, as there was so much want of it. He could have wished the troops reduced to two regiments, which he thought quite sufficient for a Peace Establishment. He hoped the President's ideas on the subject would not obtain to govern the decisions of the House, as we have the power, said he, to withhold appropriations; and what gentlemen who were locally concerned should say, he could not be guided by; as soldiers would consume their produce and spend money amongst them, consequently they were interested.
Mr. Craik really lamented that the gentleman had not been in the House yesterday, at the time the subject was more under consideration: he might then have inveighed against the President. The observations might have come with more propriety, if they had been made before the bill passed, and when under discussion; but, after a law has passed the proper authorities—after it has been resolved to have these troops of horse—to say, we will not appropriate money to carry it into effect, is strange conduct. If the determination of the gentleman was to oppose the bill, he should have used every means to that purpose, and if not effectual, at least to suffer others to enjoy their will—especially a majority. For the sake of consistency, he hoped the gentleman would withdraw his opposition, and not in this side-way try to defeat the operation of a bill which has passed. The cavalry were voted because they were supposed to be necessary, and now a gentleman comes forward, endeavoring to excite the jealousy of the House on the Executive's meddling with the Military Establishment. Mr. C. said he was pleased that the President had refused it, if it was only to convince some gentlemen that he had power to refuse that or any other bill. [Here Mr. Dent asked the gentleman if he was in order.] Mr. Craik said he only wished to prove the inconsistency of the member's conduct. He thought the House should not betray a want of consistency. He believed, from the statement of the member from Georgia, and the reasons of the President, that horse were necessary, and he therefore should wish the appropriation to be passed.
Mr. Kitchell said, gentlemen seemed to be mistaken; they were continually alluding to the law passed yesterday. There was not a word about two troops of horse yesterday. All we then said, was, that we would not say there should not be two troops of horse; the Message of the President did not say that two troops should be mounted, nor do I say, said Mr. K., that horse are not necessary; I think some are necessary; but the inquiry seemed to be, now, whether the House were to vote for more.
Mr. W. Smith said, the gentleman's observations were very extraordinary; he surely could not have attended to the subject, to say that the House had not passed the law authorizing two troops of horse. We have a law in force, said he, to ascertain and fix the Military Establishment, in which we authorize the President to employ the two troops of dragoons, to serve either on horse or foot at his discretion. The bill we sent up yesterday does not repeal that law, and yet gentlemen would now come forward to oppose the appropriation, and determine they shall act on foot. He could not think with what propriety the restriction could be made as the gentleman from Massachusetts wishes, nor could he think how the gentleman from Jersey had attended. Should we now say they should be at our direction, and that we would not grant money without? This would be strange conduct—an assumption of power which he hoped the House would never arrogate.
Mr. Kitchell said his meaning was, that the horse were not established yesterday, but before.
Mr. Hartley said it appeared, from good testimony, that the troops were requisite to save the people on the frontiers from the depredations of the Indians; he thought, therefore, that they having been established before, the House were bound to make the appropriation to give effect, or show the great inconsistency.
Mr. Nicholas said it was not his intention to vote for these men at all; but if they must have them, perhaps it would be most economical to equip them. With respect to their power of withholding the appropriation, he had no doubt; and though they had yesterday passed a law establishing two companies of cavalry, it was in the power of that House, of the Senate, or of the President, to refuse an appropriation. This was the sense of the constitution. When the bill came before the House, he should give his negative to the additional horse; for, if they were always to keep up the same number of men, whether in war or peace, except two-thirds of both Houses were found to oppose the will of the President, they might bid adieu to all restraint upon Executive power, and count upon a military Government, if ever an Executive should be found whose will it should be to make it so. If these were to be kept up, he would still say the House had better go to $100,000 expense to mount them on horse-back.
Mr. Varnum said it was observed by gentlemen that those troops were not mounted; if so, there must have been a very lavish waste of money. However that might be, gentlemen who state this matter ought to state it fairly. They ought not to say that two companies of cavalry were yesterday voted. No, they were part of the old War Establishment. It was true, the House had not the power to repeal the law; but one thing was in their power, and that they ought to do, if they see this part of the standing army necessary. The constitution returns the power to act on it once in every two years to each branch of the Legislature. The House, he thought, had good right to exercise their own opinion on the necessity of mounting these men. It was not in the power of one branch to repeal the law which keeps these men, but we ought to consider whether they are to be put in the same situation as in time of war. Mr. V. said he discharged his duty in voting against this appropriation. The House had a right to judge, and it was not in the power of the President to act for them.
Mr. Heath said that the subject had been fully discussed, and therefore he should only observe, that, from the authority which had recommended the mounting of these cavalry, he should vote for the appropriation.
Mr. Milledge repeated his arguments on the local situation of the country, and asserted the absolute necessity of the troops.
The motion was put and carried—there being 56 in favor of it.
Naval Appropriations.
Mr. W. Smith then proposed to add $172,000 for finishing the frigates United States, Constitution, and Constellation.
Mr. Nicholas said he should be against appropriating so large a sum for this purpose. It was the sense of the House, on a former occasion, that it would be proper to appropriate such a sum as should put them in such a situation as to secure them from injury, but to stop short of making them fit for sea, that the expense of manning them might be avoided.
Mr. Swanwick said a new view of the subject seemed to be brought forward at present. Before, they had determined to finish the frigates; but now, they were not to finish them, lest they should be manned, but to finish them in part only. A gentleman yesterday said, when speaking on the subject of the President's Message, that he could not suppose they would have refused to pay the soldiers, though there might be some deficiency in the expression of the act; and might he not suppose, said Mr. S., if the frigates were so nearly finished, he might go on to finish them, and trust to the Legislature to furnish the money? These frigates, he said, were a very extraordinary concern. It seemed as if it was only when it was to be made a present of to Algiers, that a frigate could be finished, and not when it was for the protection of our own commerce. He trusted, however, that there would not be a majority found in that House who would vote against finishing the frigates: as to manning them, that would remain for a future consideration.
Mr. Parker said, it would require all the money which had been named for finishing the frigates, without rigging, though there would be a considerable quantity of materials left on hand. There need be no apprehension of their being manned, whilst seamen's wages remained at the price they were, because men could not be got on the terms stipulated in the law for this purpose. If a smaller sum than was mentioned were to be granted, they might as well give nothing.
Mr. Sitgreaves supposed the blank was now proposed to be filled with the same sum which had been agreed upon on a former occasion. If this were the case, it ought to dissipate the fears of the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. Nicholas,) as it was well known that the sum was predicated upon a supposition that the frigates were not to be manned. If they were to be manned, a further appropriation would certainly be necessary.
Mr. Nicholas said, it appeared to him that if all gentlemen were agreed that this business should go no further than the building of the frigates, they could have no hesitation to leave undone some of the internal finishing work of the vessels; if they did not wish to put them into such a situation as that they might force them into service upon the spur of an alarm, they could have no objection to their being left in such a situation as to be perfectly secure, but not finished fit for sea.
Mr. Sitgreaves said this subject had heretofore undergone a very full discussion. A motion was then made merely to finish the hulls, which was negatived. It was then said that contracts were made for all the materials, and that except the frigates were finished, the engagements which had been entered into could not be fulfilled. But there was another security against the danger apprehended. They had lately come to a determination to make all appropriations specific and particular. What was the language of the present appropriation? It was for finishing the frigates, not for manning them. If it had been said to be for carrying into effect the law for the Naval Establishment, there might have been some little ground for apprehension; but, as it now stood, the Executive could not proceed to man the vessels.
Mr. Nicholas said, when they voted the sum now asked for finishing the frigates, the expenditure was accompanied by a law to repeal the manning clause of the former act. He had made inquiries respecting contracts, and found the money in hand was equal to the fulfilment of them; if there had been any others, he supposed they should have heard of them. He again said there were many ornamental parts of the vessels which might be as well thrown upon the expense of next year as of this.
Mr. Swanwick said, if Government could have had foresight sufficient to have known that there would have been any objections made to the finishing of the frigates, they would certainly not have entered into any contracts to that extent, but they could not possibly do this. He wished, if gentlemen were determined the frigates should not be made use of, that they would say at once they should be sold on the stocks. With respect to manning of them from the money proposed to be appropriated, that was impossible, and he saw no reason for making the business doubly sure by any other precaution.
Mr. Holland said it was, with great propriety, intended by many members in the House to keep the frigates in such a state as to prevent their being manned. If we appropriate to finish them, said he, we shall be exposed to all the difficulties depicted by the gentleman from Pennsylvania; for some way would be devised to procure and pay men, if the House put it in the power of the Executive to do it: therefore he hoped, to avoid all that trouble and expense, they would not vote to finish them. For what purpose, said he, should they be finished, unless it were intended to man them? To avoid every danger of that kind, he should vote against the sum proposed.
Mr. Hartley said, that last year the six frigates which had been before voted for were reduced to three, with intent to complete them. Was it not probable then, he would ask, that the President would proceed to complete those frigates, according to the power given him? Was it not to be supposed that contracts were entered into for that purpose? No person could suppose but contracts were made. Then certainly the House ought not to expose the Executive to the ridiculous situation of receding from his contracts! They would not be finished before next session, and therefore no danger of equipping could be apprehended. It may be necessary to use them, but at any rate it would be running no risk to have them finished, as they could not be manned by this appropriation.
Mr. Gallatin said, there seemed to be involved in the present consideration the question whether or not we should have a Navy. As to himself, he should vote against the present appropriation, because if the frigates were completely finished, he should fear they would get to sea. When they had on a former occasion consented to finish them, it was under the condition of the law for manning being repealed; but they now stood upon new ground. Mr. G. said he had been charged with inconsistency of opinion, from having before said that he thought the President would not be authorized to proceed in the manning of the vessels under the present law, whilst he was now apprehensive that he might do so. He wished to be on sure ground. He did not know but the President might put a different construction upon the law from him. Indeed, from the experience they had had of Presidential discretion, they need not be surprised if the vessels were sent to sea, though no appropriation was made for the purpose, should the President suppose there was any plea for doing so. As a proof of this power having been exercised heretofore, Mr. G. referred to the Western insurrection. In that case, he said, no appropriation was made for the expense; but the law authorizes the President to call out the militia when he shall see occasion to do so; he called them out, and got money from the Treasury. Indeed, the building of a frigate for Algiers, without any authority, and the pledging of the faith of the nation to pay the expense of the law-suits of our citizens in London, were strong proofs of what the Executive could do.
Mr. G. said he did not mean to bring into view any arguments relative to the propriety of establishing a Navy in this country. He should vote against the present motion, because he did not wish to see the frigates at sea, and because he conceived a Navy to be prejudicial to the true interests of this country. Something had been said about contracts, but he did not believe any existed. They had last year been told the same thing. Any person reading the statements which had been furnished to them, would perceive that the business was not done by any contract, but that men were employed by Government, and regular wages paid to them. The frigate which had been built for Algiers had been built by contract, they had an estimate of it at so much a ton, but this was not the case with respect to any other of the frigates.
Mr. W. Smith did not wish to go into a long debate on the subject, when they had so much business before them, in order to show whether it was proper for this country to have a Navy or not; the only question now was, whether they ought to appropriate money for finishing the three frigates. If they did not do it, all the money which had been already expended would probably be lost. The only objection to the doing of this seemed to arise from a fear that the vessels would be manned, though when this subject was before them, the other day, the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Gallatin) moved to postpone the bill relative to the repealing or suspending the law for manning the vessels till next session, from an opinion that, by the present law, the President was not authorized to man them. That gentleman seemed now, however, in contradiction to himself, to fear the President would put a different construction upon the law: if he did not believe the President would violate the law, he could not account for his refusing now to vote the money which was merely necessary to finish the vessels. Mr. S. read an extract from the report of the Secretary of War, to show the forward state in which the vessels were, and added, that they were bound in duty to finish them, were it only to prevent the loss of the money already expended upon them.
Mr. Dearborn observed, that if he was convinced, from the documents which had been laid before them, that the sum now asked for was necessary merely to finish the frigates, he should not hesitate to vote for it; but it was not a little extraordinary that the gentlemen on that committee (not even the Chairman, who seemed to have the business so much at heart) could not say whether this sum was necessary for finishing and rigging, or finishing without rigging, or for finishing, rigging, and manning. The frigate building in this city, the captain had told him, was calculated in point of size to carry 62 guns, instead of 44; which was one of the reasons they had cost so much more than they had been estimated at. Mr. D. said, he suspected that the sum proposed would not only be sufficient to finish the hulls, but to rig and fit the vessels for sea, and until he had more satisfaction on the subject he could not consent to give his vote for it.
Mr. Kittera observed, that gentlemen first said, that under the present law, the President could not proceed to man and send the vessels to sea, but now they were apprehensive this might be done, though no appropriation was made for the purpose. This, he thought, somewhat inconsistent; but he believed whilst thirty dollars a month was given to seamen by merchants, and their law only authorized eleven to be given, there was not much to be feared on this head.
Mr. Ames said, that gentlemen opposed to the finishing of the frigates, seemed to be also opposed to all ideas of this country ever becoming a naval power; the necessity of this, he was persuaded, would ere long appear. It was not to be supposed that a nation whose commerce was greater than that of any other, except Great Britain, should go on long without a naval protection; and he believed the more strenuous the opposition shown against this measure, the sooner it would be accomplished; he was not therefore displeased to see the present violent opposition to every thing which looked towards this object.
It was not enough, Mr. A. said, for gentlemen to discourage the building of ships, they would also discredit the administration of Government; and nothing was more natural than that those who thought so ill of it themselves should endeavor to spread those opinions. This was done continually. With respect to the building of the frigates, he thought it was a wise step; and as to the extra expense and delay which had attended the business, he believed, gentlemen might take a share of the blame upon themselves, on account of the versatility which had been shown upon the occasion in this day agreeing upon one thing, and that upon another. It was true, that another cause of extra expense was owing to a resolution which had been taken to make the ships much larger than was contemplated by the House; the vessel building here, he believed, was nearly 1,600 tons. He was glad that this alteration of plan had been adopted; not because more money would be expended on this account; not because contrary to the direction of the Legislature, but because true wisdom required it; they would now be an overmatch for any frigate, or any vessel which the Algerines could send out against them. These, he believed, were the views of the Executive in having them built of the size they were. The number of the frigates agreed to be finished had been reduced to three; and these they last session passed a law to finish. But what was now to be done? It was said they should not be finished. Who said this? Did the people? did the Government say it? No; that House alone said it: so that that House were about to usurp the supreme authority. We are the Government, we are the people, we are every thing.
But, if there be a law which says that these three frigates should be built and equipped for sea, was it not necessary, before it was concluded that they should not be so built and equipped, that this law should be repealed by all the branches of the Legislature? No, say gentlemen, we can appropriate or not, according to our sovereign will and pleasure. If they possessed the power to nullify what was enacted by all the three branches of Government, it was greatly to be lamented. But if they could appropriate according to their will, they were bound to do it also according to their consciences too. It was not only a weapon, but a shield, which it was their duty to use with great caution, and according to law; for, if they were to use it contrarily, it would be to make that House the supreme power, it would be to usurp the supreme authority.
Mr. Coit believed the only real question before them was, what sum they would appropriate for this object; he wished the mover would consent to leave the item blank.
Mr. W. Smith had no objection to its being left blank.
Mr. Venable said, if this was a mere question of expense, it was very extraordinary that it should have called forth such a philippic from the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. Ames,) who had charged the House with arrogating to itself all the powers of Government; as being omnipotent. Upon what ground could he found such charges? If it were a question of expense merely, there could certainly be no ground for such charges; but if it were to be considered as a question of power, if they were to be told they dared not to withhold the appropriation in question, here he would intrench himself as a Representative of the people; he had a right, as a member of that House, to vote against the expense which he thought improper, and he would exercise that right. Every branch of Government had the same right, and he wished them to exercise it. And he would not be told, when he was about to exercise this right, that he was arrogating to himself all the powers of Government. He was determined to exercise his discretion on every question which came before him for decision, and he would vote against this expense.
Mr. Nicholas said, the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Ames) seldom spoke without casting some denunciation against that House. He had, however, allowed that the President had done, with respect to this fleet, all that any gentleman had charged him with doing; he had even put the case stronger than any other person had put it; for he had said that the Executive had determined to build the vessels of a larger size than had been contemplated by the Legislature, in order to be an overmatch for any other frigate. All this, said Mr. N., may be right, and the approbation he gave this conduct, was a proof the gentleman thought so; all he had to say was, that it was not legal; it might be patriotic, and be done with an intention to serve the country; the President might understand the interests of the country better than they; but it was a conduct which would not meet with the same approbation from him that it met with from the gentleman from Massachusetts. That gentleman had also said that a law imposed a duty upon the House to find the means for carrying it into effect. Were they not, then, to be called upon for money to man the frigates? He asked those gentlemen whether the President had not a right to man the frigates, and if so, whether they should not be obliged to find the money?
The powers of this House to control appropriations, had, however, already been settled. It was, indeed, an absurdity to call a body a Legislature, and at the same time deny them a control over the public purse; if this were not so, where would be the use of going through the forms of that House with a money bill? The Executive might as well draw upon the Treasury at once for whatever sums he might stand in need of. A doctrine like this would be scouted even in despotic countries.
And what was all this power that so much alarmed the gentleman from Massachusetts? It was merely a negative power to refuse to do what they thought it would be mischievous to do. Mr. N. said there was a very fashionable doctrine of throwing all power into the hands of the Executive. If there were to be extremes, however, he believed an excess of power would at least be as safe in their hands as in those of the Executive; and if this were his opinion, and the ground upon which he acted, the gentleman from Massachusetts never failed to take an opposite direction. He never thought any Executive power too great.
Mr. Parker remarked, that it had been said the frigates would carry 62 guns; it might have been possible to have made them so, but they were no more than a large sized 44-gun frigate. They might be a little larger than any other of that number of guns, but not so much. It was true they were not at first contemplated to be so large, but strong reasons were offered for making them of the present size; the expense was not increased by the increase of size, in proportion to their usefulness. He therefore himself approved of what the President had done; and, if he had had the management of the business, he should have done the same. It had been doubted whether the sum proposed to be granted would not only finish, but equip and man the vessels. If the gentleman who had these doubts would refer to the report which had been made on the subject, he would find that $220,000 would be required for that purpose; the $172,000 proposed would barely make them ready for sea in other respects.
The gentleman from Pennsylvania, (Mr. Gallatin,) who was generally very correct in his statements, had supposed that if the frigates were finished, the President might go on to man them without consulting the Legislature upon the occasion; and, to show the possibility of doing this, he had alluded to his having built a frigate for the Algerines without the approbation of Congress. He lamented the situation in which we stood with that country, but he believed the building of the frigate was necessary. The Western insurrection, and the law-suits in London had also been named, which he should not stop to notice.
In answer to the gentleman from Pennsylvania, he would say, that if the President could man the vessels and send them to sea independent of Congress, he might also finish them without their aid; but he did not believe he would place himself in the same situation with respect to them as if he had to do with a foreign nation. In relation to foreign nations, he had great power; but, if he went beyond his power with respect to internal regulations, he would be liable to impeachment, and he would be one of the first to promote an impeachment, were such to be his conduct.
Mr. Ames said, he understood the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Nicholas) to say, that the conduct of the Executive was illegal; but certainly if a frigate was estimated to cost $12,000 and it cost $15,000, the expenditure of the additional $3,000 was not illegal.
Mr. Nicholas said, he had made use of the gentleman's own words with respect to the change in the plan of building the frigates, which he had called illegal.
Mr. Ames said, as to the size of the vessels, that was Executive business. The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Venable) seemed to take the observation which he had made with a degree of sensibility perfectly natural, because it went to touch the power which he had claimed as a member of that House. The gentleman said, "Here I intrench myself behind my privileges." Nothing was said about the public good; all was self.
And was it to be considered, he asked, that they enjoyed the powers committed to them in their own right, as barons of empire, as sovereign despots? Or was the power placed in them to be exercised like other duties, according to justice and propriety? He believed no one would deny that the latter was the truth.
How did the matter stand? They had attempted to repeal a law, but another branch of the Legislature had refused to accede to the repeal; of course it could not be effected. Were they then to act as if the law had been repealed? Yes, say gentlemen, we will refuse to appropriate the money since we think the thing unnecessary. He hoped, however, the day would soon come (as melancholy would be the period until it did arrive) when this power of refusing an appropriation to carry an existing law into effect, should no longer be countenanced by a majority of that House.
Mr. Venable was of opinion, that if the gentleman from Massachusetts had only the public good in view, which he had spoken of, he could have had no inducement to have gone into the arguments which he had introduced on this occasion. He could assure that gentleman that he felt himself as strongly bound to consider the public good in all his conduct as he could be. He believed no instance could be named in which he had not consulted that interest. As to what was, or was not, calculated for the public good, he must be left at liberty to judge for himself. But the gentleman had not put the business on this ground, but because gentlemen differed in opinion from others, they were charged with assuming absolute authority, with principles of despotism, overturning the Government, &c.
Mr. V. said, it was his opinion, that in all laws which came before that House, every member had a full right to say yea or nay, for which they were not accountable to that gentleman, or to any other. The other branches of Government had also the same power. Indeed, the other House had exercised this right in negativing the repeal of the law relative to the manning of these vessels. He trusted both Houses would always continue to assert their right thus to use their discretion and privilege.
Mr. Ames said, he had not charged that House with usurping power, or breaking down the other branches of Government; nor did he say they had not a discretion; but that their discretion ought to be regulated by duty.
Mr. Swanwick said, amidst all the foreign objections which had been urged against this appropriation, he wished the act passed last session to be referred to. [Mr. S. read an extract from it.] Here, in April last, said he, it is provided that the frigates shall be finished, and yet now gentlemen wished the House to come to a conclusion only to half finish them. What, he asked, would the world think of such a versatility of conduct?
Mr. Kitchell thought, if they meant to get through the business which lay before them, it was time they disposed of this question. He thought the debate upon it had been sufficiently long.
Mr. Brent said, when this subject first came before the committee, he had determined to give the sum necessary to complete them; nor had he ever wavered on the subject, until he heard the ground which had been taken by the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. Ames.) He did most feelingly participate in the sentiments expressed by his colleague (Mr. Venable) on the occasion. It was really difficult to know what was the amount of his doctrines. In the first instance, he understood the gentleman to rise for two purposes, viz: to justify the Executive from certain charges which had been brought against him, and to show the obligation which the House lay under to grant the money.
In the first place, the gentleman said the Executive had been charged with violating the law; and, when he went into the subject, he understood him to say, as his colleague understood him, that the Executive had changed the plan; he understood him to say, that though Congress had ordered 44-gun frigates, he had ordered 74's, which remark he concluded by expressing his approbation of the President's conduct. If he admitted that the Executive had violated the law, and yet felicitated him upon having done so, he might enjoy his pleasure, he would not participate with him.
With respect to the second part of his observations, as to the absolute necessity under which every member lay to vote for the sum required for finishing the frigates, because the building of them was directed by law, this was a most important point. He thought this involved one of the most valuable principles which that House possessed, and which should never be lost sight of, viz: the right of every member to exercise his discretion upon every question, appropriations as well as others, which came before him. Did not the gentleman know that the most solemn decision had taken place last session on this subject, by a large majority? Indeed, said he, this sentiment was so ingrafted in the constitution that the House could not divest themselves of it; for the gentleman to say they did not possess it, was to make a dead letter of their privileges. There could be no doubt on the subject; and it was a sacred and essential principle which would go further to preserve our liberties than any other which they possessed. He trusted, therefore, they should guard it with special care.
Mr. Gallatin said, he did not mean to follow the gentleman from Massachusetts in what he had said on this subject, because he had not felt the force of what he had advanced, nor very well understood what he meant. Both his meaning and his motive for bringing this subject before them to-day were to him mysterious. He had brought before them the Treaty question anew, and it would be recollected what were the feelings of the House on that occasion; but he could see no relation which it bore to the present question; and though a number of members in that House had asserted that they were bound to appropriate money to carry a treaty into effect, he did not believe they were ready to say the same with respect to laws.
The gentleman from Massachusetts had said, that if they put a meaning upon the constitution in this respect different from him, that they arrogated the supreme power to themselves. Did not he know that the doctrine applied to the Senate as well as to that House? and did he not see that that would be a check upon the abuse of it in either House, since it was a weapon which both could use?
The gentleman had said they were bound to obey the law. Bound to obey what law? The law for authorizing the building of the three frigates? He did not understand how this law was to bind them. This was a mere administrative law, which did not extend to the citizens of the United States, but gave power to the President to do a certain act; therefore, as citizens, they had nothing to do with that law, except they were to obey it by appropriating the money necessary to carry it into effect. Yet the gentleman allowed there might be cases in which it would be right to use discretion in the appropriation of money. For his part, he did not understand the being bound and not bound at the same time; to have discretion and no discretion. He wished either that the one or the other opinion might be adopted; and that they might be told that they had, or that they had not, a right to exercise discretion in the appropriation of money. If this exercise were to be allowed in any case, why could it not be allowed in the present? He wondered, therefore, that gentlemen in favor of this motion should have touched upon this ground. He agreed with the gentleman that they had this discretion, and that it ought to be used with caution, and not upon trifling occasions. But he conceived this to be one of those occasions in which it was necessary for those opposed to a Naval Establishment, to vote against this appropriation. He meant against the appropriation in its extent. It was because he considered a Naval Establishment as highly injurious to the interests of this country, he should vote against every measure which had a tendency to produce it. That gentleman, and others who thought differently, would vote accordingly.
Mr. G. moved an amendment, viz: that before the word "frigates," to add "the hulls of." On the question, ayes 45, noes 44—the Chairman giving his vote against the amendment, it was not carried. It was then put in the original form, to finish the frigates, the sum of —— dollars, and carried—ayes 54.
The question on the blank being filled with $172,000 was then put, and carried—ayes 47.
Mr. Gallatin moved to add an item to pay the bounty of one hundred dollars which they had agreed should be paid to every officer discharged from the military service in consequence of the regulations which had taken place in the establishment.
This item was filled up with three thousand dollars.
Mr. Gallatin moved to add the following words: "which several sums shall be solely applied to the objects for which they are respectively appropriated."
Mr. W. Smith wished, as much as the gentleman from Pennsylvania, to confine the expenditure to the sums appropriated; but the provision for some objects might fall short, while others might have a surplus, which he thought ought to be made use of to supply deficiencies in cases of emergency. Ever since the establishment of the present Government, the whole appropriation for the Military Establishment had been considered as an aggregate fund out of which any of the objects of that establishment might be paid for; but the expense of each object was now to be confined to the specific appropriation. He was afraid, however well this might look in theory, it would be found very mischievous in practice. He wished the gentleman would amend his proposition by adding, "so far as may be consistent with public exigency;" this would restrict the expenditures, except in unforeseen cases of emergency, to provide for which some latitude of discretion ought to be left to the Executive.
Mr. Sitgreaves did not see the necessity or propriety of the amendment of his colleague, when the House had distributed the appropriations amongst the different objects; as the amendment, he conceived, meant nothing more than the department should not expend any more than the sum appropriated for the different items, which they had no right to do if there were no amendment. Heretofore, when appropriations were made in a mass, the Secretary of War did not feel himself bound to govern himself by the estimate which he had given in, but by particularizing the different items, the former evil was corrected.
Mr. Gallatin said, if the fact was exactly as it had been stated by his colleague, his amendment might be unnecessary, but the Treasury Department had not acted upon the principle which he had stated. They had, notwithstanding the distribution of the appropriation, thought themselves at liberty to take the money from an item where there was a surplus, and apply it to another, where it was wanted. And when this was objected to, as taking from the Legislature their appropriating power, they answered that the Legislature had entered so much into detail that they could not attend to their directions. They had, last session, made the appropriations more specific than at present, yet the Secretary of the Treasury, in a letter written to the House during this session, said, "that it was well known to have been a rule since the establishment of the Government, that the appropriations for the Military Establishment were considered as general grants of money, liable to be issued to any of the objects included under that department." Therefore, unless this amendment was introduced, it would leave the power as before. In order to make the business more easy, all the contingent expenses were appropriated in one sum.
The object of this amendment, said Mr. G., was that no part of the pay of the Army should go to the Quartermaster's Department, &c., and that none of them should go to the building or equipping the frigates; but if this were not the case, money might be found to get the frigates to sea from the appropriations for the Military Department, if the President should think it necessary so to apply it. As to the amendment, it would do away the intention of it altogether.
Mr. Harper was against the amendment. He thought the Department ought to be at liberty, in case of an appropriation proving deficient, to have recourse to other funds where there might be a surplus, and as none would be taken, except where there was a surplus, he could see no objection to this being allowed. Indeed, for want of such a privilege very serious inconveniences might arise to the service, in case of accident or unforeseen events.
Mr. Gallatin said, the law did not operate in the manner which the gentleman last up supposed. They had lately voted a sum of forty thousand dollars to make good a deficiency of last year, which had been used for some other purpose; in consequence the deficiency fell upon the pay of the Army, although that could not increase, because the number of men was never increased; it might be less, as the nominal, not the actual number of men was appropriated for.
Mr. Kittera thought the amendment a bad one. Suppose, said he, a boat should be overset with tents in the lake, or a magazine blown up, the losses could not be repaired, because, though there might be surplus sums in the Treasury from other items in the establishment, yet, if this amendment prevailed, they could not be touched. He thought this would be the effect; he was against innovations.
The amendment was put and carried, there being fifty-four votes in favor of it.
The committee then rose, and the House took up the amendments.
And then the main question, "to finish the frigates —— dollars," was taken by yeas and nays, as follows:
Yeas.—Fisher Ames, Abraham Baldwin, Theophilus Bradbury, Richard Brent, Daniel Buck, Dempsey Burges, Joshua Coit, William Cooper, William Craik, Samuel W. Dana, James Davenport, Henry Dearborn, George Dent, George Ege, William Findlay, Abiel Foster, Dwight Foster, Nathaniel Freeman, jr., Ezekiel Gilbert, Nicholas Gilman, Henry Glenn, Chauncey Goodrich, Roger Griswold, William B. Grove, Robert Goodloe Harper, Carter B. Harrison, Thomas Hartley, John Heath, William Hindman, John Wilkes Kittera, Edward Livingston, Samuel Lyman, Francis Malbone, John Milledge, Frederick A. Muhlenberg, William Vans Murray, John Nicholas, Alexander D. Orr, Josiah Parker, Elisha R. Potter, John Read, Samuel Sewall, Samuel Sitgreaves, Jeremiah Smith, Nathaniel Smith, Isaac Smith, William Smith, Thomas Sprigg, John Swanwick, Zephaniah Swift, George Thatcher, Richard Thomas, Mark Thompson, John A. Van Allen, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Peleg Wadsworth, and John Williams.
Nays.—Theodorus Bailey, David Bard, Thomas Blount, Nathan Bryan, Samuel J. Cabell, Gabriel Christie, Thomas Claiborne, John Clopton, Isaac Coles, Jesse Franklin, Albert Gallatin, James Gillespie, Christopher Greenup, Andrew Gregg, Wade Hampton, John Hathorn, Jonathan N. Havens, James Holland, Andrew Jackson, George Jackson, Matthew Locke, William Lyman, Samuel Maclay, Nathaniel Macon, Andrew Moore, Anthony New, John Patton, John Richards, Israel Smith, Richard Sprigg, jr., William Strudwick, and Abraham Venable.
The question to fill the blank with $178,000 was then put and carried—ayes 47, noes 42, and the bill ordered for a third reading to-morrow.