Tuesday, December 9.
Another member, to wit, John Rutledge, Jr., from South Carolina, appeared, and took his seat in the House.
Reporting the Debates.
The House proceeded to consider the report of the committee to whom was referred the memorial of Samuel Harrison Smith and Thomas Carpenter, made yesterday, and which lay on the table; and, the same being again read, in the words following, to wit:
"The committee to whom was referred the memorial of Samuel Harrison Smith and Thomas Carpenter, report the following resolution, which they recommend to the House:
"Resolved, That it is not expedient for this House to make any order upon the subject of the memorial of Samuel Harrison Smith and Thomas Carpenter, presented on the fourth day of December instant."
Mr. Christie moved the reference of the report to a Committee of the Whole.
Mr. Griswold opposed the reference.
The House divided—for the reference 43, against it, 46.
Mr. Jackson made several remarks, and concluded by calling for the yeas and nays, which were ordered.
Mr. Nicholas said, in a Government like ours, the theory of which is republican, and the practice of which he hoped would always continue to be republican, he considered the representatives of the people responsible to the people, by whom they were created. It was necessary, to give efficacy to this responsibility, that the people, who were to judge, should possess the purest information, as to not only the acts, but the motives of the public agents. It was of little consequence to them to know what laws are enacted, compared with a knowledge of projects that were attempted or prevented, and the grounds on which they were supported or opposed. Nor could the merits of the acts themselves be understood, unless the reasons for them were stated. It was, therefore, of the highest consequence that the reasons for our conduct should be clearly understood, that our measures may be comprehended, and our motives also known, that our constituents may judge whether we have faithfully discharged our duty.
Under this view of the subject, he thought it extremely indelicate to resist the admission within the bar of those persons who thought themselves qualified to take the debates and proceedings of the House. But what rendered the attempt still more improper, was, its being an innovation on the practice of the House. For, since he had been a member of the Legislature, individuals of this description had been placed by the House at their ease, in a situation convenient for hearing what passed. Why is this practice, hitherto unopposed, now to be broken in upon? For such an innovation and departure from the established practice of the House, there ought to be the strongest reasons; particularly when the attempted innovation respected, and was made by, those whose conduct was to be scrutinized.
It was not without deliberation that the practice of the House had been instituted and adhered to. Some gentlemen had, some time since, contemplated the employment of a particular individual, whose services were to be paid for by the House. But the idea was abandoned, from the supposed sanction given by such an act to his statements; whereby the House might be made responsible for his accuracy and talents.
The difficulty attending the business he acknowledged to be great. But, for the reasons he had assigned, he thought the House had acted right in forbearing to interfere, further than by merely assigning a convenient place to the stenographers. It was deemed safest to confide the business to persons not known officially to the House, whose own individual interest would constitute the best pledge for their fidelity. Though no precise resolve had been passed to this effect, it was well understood that this was the course the House meant to pursue, after having given the subject a deliberate and solemn consideration.
Shall we now, said Mr. N., after this mature consideration, on the mere suggestion of personal inconvenience, on a subject of such importance as to invite a gentleman from a considerable distance, [referring to some old plan,] shall we, after the sanction of a uniform practice, fortified by the long period for which it has been observed, on the suggestion of a trifling inconvenience, which, he believed, on examination, would not be found to exist at all, adopt the innovation proposed by the report of the committee? For his part, he thought they were all deeply interested in having the debates well taken, as it was not in their power altogether to prohibit their being taken.
He had heard but two objections made to the old plan. The first was, that by passing a resolve admitting stenographers within the bar, the House gave a sanction to the reports published by them. The second was, that as the Speaker had heretofore had the management of the business, it would be wrong to take it out of his hands.
As to the first objection, he thought it altogether incorrect. The resolution, submitted by the gentleman from North Carolina, (Mr. Hill,) which he wished the House to adopt, does not propose the selection of any particular person. It admits, generally, those individuals who wish to take the debates. Can this admission make us responsible for the conduct of men we do not know, and over whom we have no control? Have we heretofore been considered as responsible? And wherein consists the difference between our past situation and the situation we shall be in, if the motion of the gentleman from North Carolina be adopted? We shall then only have done that which before had been done by the Speaker. Governed by a sense of duty, the Speaker had refused admission within the bar. It became, therefore, necessary, in order to admit, for the House to pass a resolution. But it did not follow that the least responsibility would arise from such an act.
Indeed, by admitting the stenographers within the bar, the responsibility of the House would be diminished; for, if the House admitted them, no one could then say that it had done any thing that interfered with a faithful report of the debates; whereas, by excluding the stenographers, the unavoidable inaccuracies committed, might be charged to the House.
The second objection made to the resolution of the gentleman from North Carolina, was that, as the Speaker had heretofore had the management of the business, it would be wrong to take it out of his hands.
Mr. N. in reply to this objection, observed, that the power, heretofore exercised by the Speaker on this subject, had not been expressly delegated to him by the House. It had often been thought of, but no decision had heretofore been made. As the object asked related to the convenience of the members, he thought they were the best judges of the propriety of granting it. The inconvenience alleged to exist was entirely a matter of opinion. He thought it either had no existence or a very limited one. As he had remarked before, the subject was extremely delicate. He would not consent to furnish room for being charged with a wish to suppress the means of making an inquiry into his conduct. He believed that the innovation contended for, would be so viewed; so far, therefore, from considering it as innocent, he viewed it as wrong in itself, and likely to be mischievous in its effects.
Mr. Otis was one of those who was not disposed to make a strong stand against the resolution offered by the gentleman from North Carolina. He did not view the point in so interesting a light as did the gentleman who had preceded him. It appeared to him in the shape of a question of convenience; and as to his own situation, it could not be affected by any permission given to stenographers to come within the bar. Many of the arguments he had heard, implied that the situation at present occupied by the stenographers was exclusive of all others; whereas if that were inconvenient they might take any other, so that they did not come within the bar.
It is true that the stenographers have hitherto been admitted within the bar. They were admitted because there was room. But, in our present chamber, the room was less; nor could they occupy a part of that little, without materially interfering with the convenience of the members.
In his opinion, the proper question for the House to consider was, whether an admission should take place independent of the Speaker, or whether he should decide its propriety. It did not follow, if the Speaker retained the management, that the exclusion would apply to all occasions. It was true, that the places desired by the stenographers were generally assigned to the high Executive officers of the Government, and the foreign Ministers. But if, in consistence with their accommodation, the indulgence could be granted, during any important debate, he had no doubt of the Speaker's readiness to admit them, and they might thus obtain a temporary place within the bar.
Mr. O. thought the remarks of the gentleman from Virginia covered too much ground. They ascribed to the friends of the report an attempt to preclude the people from obtaining all information of what passed in the House. No such design existed. For his part, he wished the people to know every thing that occurred within these walls. There was no doubt of the debates, as heretofore given, being an inadequate organ of the ideas of the members; they had been taken for nearly twelve years, and sometimes they had been accurate, and at other times very inaccurate; and so complete had the distortion of sentiments often been, that had it not been for the name that was attached to a particular speech, the member, to whom it was ascribed, would not have known it to be his. Mr. O. would, notwithstanding, not deny the ability of a person who read the debates, to form a tolerable idea of the arguments used on a particular subject.
The charge of innovation, Mr. O. thought unjust. He proposed to leave the business as it had heretofore been left, free from any resolve of the House, to the control of the Speaker. By this conduct, no sanction would be given to the performances of any reporter; but, on the other hand, if the House passed a resolve, divesting the Speaker of his previous power, they would render themselves responsible, and would virtually give a sanction.
If it were resolved that the House should interfere, he would much rather select and pay an individual competent to the business, and appeal, for the faithful discharge of his trust, to his candor and impartiality.
If the House passed the resolution admitting the stenographers within the bar, Mr. O. asked whether they would not in fact be officers of the House. The only difference between them and the other officers would be that one would be paid and the others would not.
Mr. O. said that, in his opinion, the most inconvenient position in the House had been taken by the stenographers. It was near the Clerk's office, between which and the bar there was a perpetual passage of the members. If an experiment were made of a position on the other side, or in the upper gallery, he was persuaded it would be found very convenient. Are not, said Mr. O., the galleries constructed for the express purpose of hearing? Are they not intended for the good people of the United States? And if they can hear in them, cannot the stenographers also?
Mr. O. concluded by stating the extreme inconvenience that would arise from admitting the stenographers; the interference it would produce with the assignation of seats to the Secretaries of our Government and the foreign Ministers; and with declaring his opinion that it was most expedient to adopt the report of the committee.
Mr. Nicholson said, that if he understood the objections made by the gentleman from Massachusetts to granting an admission of the stenographers within the bar, they might be classed under three heads: 1. It will be against precedent; 2. It would prevent the members from having elbow room; 3. There is a possibility that the Speaker may indulge the stenographers.
As to the first objection, he would ask whether the House had not a right to exercise any power themselves that was exercised by the Speaker. Hitherto the Speaker has exercised the power, and admitted the stenographers within the bar; he now refuses to do it, and we are called upon to perform what he refuses. If we think it proper to admit them, we have a right to do it. The power heretofore exercised by the Speaker was derived from us, according to the well-known maxim, Qui facit per alium, facit per se.
But we are told that the admission would interfere with the accommodation of the four Secretaries and the foreign Ministers. Suppose it should, said Mr. N.; I ask whether the convenience and the interest of the people of the United States are to be prostrated by our complaisance to the Secretaries and foreign agents? It is our duty to enable the people to obtain the best information of what is doing here, that we can supply. Shall we abandon our duty? Shall we sacrifice the interests of our constituents to a sense of politeness to these gentlemen? It would be much better to submit to the inconvenience experienced by the Secretaries and the foreign Ministers, if there is not room for them within the bar, than to conceal from the people the knowledge they have a right to possess. Let, then, the foreign Ministers, if there be such a competition, retire into the galleries.
He considered the subject as of high importance both to the country and the members themselves. They all ought to desire their conduct to be rigidly inspected.
Gentlemen say that the debates have been heretofore imperfectly taken. Will they remedy the evil by excluding the stenographers from places within the bar? If, heretofore, notwithstanding the favorableness of their position, when stillness and silence reigned, they have been unable to take the debates with precision, can it be expected that, driven to a distance from most of the members, surrounded by a crowd in perpetual motion, they will be able more successfully to accomplish their object? Sir, said Mr. N., the expectation is absurd. It cannot be done. I have placed myself without the bar, and I declare it impossible to hear correctly. If, then, you are determined to exclude them from their usual places, you had infinitely better turn them out of the House altogether.
As to the convenience of the galleries for hearing, Mr. N. was not able, from a trial made by himself, to decide upon it. But he had heard but one uniform opinion, which was, that owing to the constant passage of persons, and the frequent crowd it would contain, it was impossible to hear there with any distinctness. With respect to the remarks made by the gentleman from Massachusetts on this point, he thought them altogether inapposite. The gallery was not constructed by us, and if it were a bad place for hearing, it arose not from any fault to be ascribed to us. All that we did was to open our doors to all citizens who conducted themselves with decorum.
The personal inconvenience to members alleged, did not, in the opinion of Mr. N., exist. He thought there was ample room. The chamber they occupied was similar to that in Philadelphia, and the positions desired by the stenographers were relatively the same as those in Philadelphia. By advancing the Clerk's table three feet, every difficulty would be removed.
Mr. Rutledge said, that the members who had preceded him had talked much about the necessity of giving the people correct information of the transactions of that House. He believed there was not a single member who did not wish to impart to the people all the knowledge they could receive, and who did not highly prize the means of information furnished by the proceedings of that House. On this point there was no division. No one was desirous of excluding the stenographers, or prohibiting the publication of debates. The only question really before the House was, whether they should persevere in the old plan; whether they should confide in the integrity and the talents of the Speaker, who had hitherto merited their confidence, or whether, divesting him of his power, they should exercise a right themselves hitherto attached to his office.
Such a mode of procedure as had been pursued on this occasion was not conformable to that heretofore practised. An application somewhat similar had been, some time since, made to the Speaker. The Speaker decided, and the House, without debate, acquiesced in his decision. A stenographer had grossly misrepresented a member, and when required to correct his false statement, had insolently refused to do it, and added to the previous injury of misstatement insult of the most contumelious kind. The Speaker dismissed him from his place for this barefaced misconduct. Some of his friends made an appeal to the House. The House acted wisely, and, with becoming dignity, refused to interpose.
Now, said Mr. R., if any other stenographer, like the one I have alluded to, shall make it his systematic practice to misrepresent, and he continue as heretofore to hold his place at the tenure of the Speaker's permission, he may be dismissed by the Speaker without troubling the House. But should the motion made by the gentleman from North Carolina prevail, we shall be perpetually appealed to, and occupied in debate. For these reasons he trusted the report would be agreed to.
Mr. Hill said he considered the subject as simply involving an address to the sentiments of the members on the ground of personal convenience, and that on that ground he was ready to sacrifice any little inconvenience to the accommodation of the stenographers; stating at the same time his entire reliance upon the integrity and talents of the Speaker.
Mr. Griswold said, this is nothing less than an appeal from the Chair. To the Speaker has heretofore been committed the regulation of the admission of all persons whatever within the bar. This is the only correct mode in which such an object can be accomplished. The Speaker must exercise the discretion hitherto vested in him, otherwise the order of the House cannot be preserved. The object now is to take this power from the Speaker, and to open the area of the House to the stenographers, without the Speaker's approbation. It is said that only two persons at present apply. But if the door be once opened to admission in this way, there may be no end to intrusion. The Speaker being divested of power to act, and the necessity of acting being evident, the House will be perpetually troubled with appeals.
In his opinion, the power confided to the Speaker had been exercised in this case with great propriety. It must be apparent to every body that the area was too small to justify the admission of the stenographers. He believed it to be an idle pretence that the stenographers could not hear. He believed it to be a mere matter of pride, which would be gratified by an appeal from the Chair, and a reversal of the decision of the Speaker by the House.
Mr. Thatcher, persuaded that all the information derived from the debates of this House was of little comparative importance when viewed in relation to the general mass of information possessed by the people, cared but little for the event of the resolution before the House. Upon this ground he felt no anxiety whatever. As a matter of order, it might perhaps be of some importance. As to the convenience of position, he doubted whether a more correct account of the debates could not be given from a situation without the bar than within it. His reasons were these: It was well known that for four or five sessions after the organization of the Federal Government stenographers never came within the bar, and their positions during that period were as remote from the members as at present. Yet if any man would appeal to the debates then taken, he would find them as correctly taken as they have been at any time since. It is true, there were complaints of inaccuracy, but the debate takers never assigned, as a justification of their errors, the inconvenience of their situations; on the contrary, they declared that they did as well as they could, and contended that their reports were as correct as the nature of the case permitted.
When the seat of Government was transferred to Philadelphia, and the stenographers occupied places within the bar, complaints increased, the debates were taken more incorrectly, and two or three of the stenographers were actually turned out of the area within the bar; one of whom, he believed, was sent into the upper gallery.
The incorrectness of the published debates did not arise so much from an inability to hear as from an inability to take down a rapid speech.
Mr. T. said he believed the debates as taken down by Mr. Lloyd, were as accurately taken as any taken before or since. The conclusion he drew from these facts was, that if the stenographers were admitted by the House within the bar, the public would gain nothing by it. He had, however, no objection to their admission, if the Speaker approved it. They might, as far as he cared, take any place in the House; even seats alongside of the Speaker.
Mr. Davis had expected to hear substantial reasons in support of the report of the committee. None such had been offered. It was said that the stenographers could hear very well from their present positions. He denied it. The reporter could not possibly hear. Though himself nearer the gentleman, he had not heard a word that fell from the gentleman from North Carolina.
He trusted the House would admit the stenographers within the bar. If not admitted, the conversation and passage of the members around them will at once prevent the debates from being well taken, and be a perpetual excuse for their errors. But if admitted, they will have no such apology, and they will be within the power of the House.
The great mass of our citizens are too remote to attend your debates. They rely on those who report them. Not more than forty or fifty persons transiently appear in the galleries, who are not equal to diffusing a knowledge of your proceedings. Exclude the stenographers, and you may as well shut your doors. It may be said that you print your journals; but who reads them? They are scarcely read by the members themselves. On great national questions the people ought to know, not only what you do, but also the principles that guide you.
The gentleman from South Carolina was willing to place the stenographers under the coercion of the Speaker, but was unwilling to place them under the coercion of the House. For his part, he thought differently. He did not wish to see them at the mercy of the Speaker.
Several allusions had been made to the treatment of a reporter at Philadelphia, who had been driven from the House by the Speaker. He recollected the affair, and, in his opinion, the Speaker had in this case been actuated more by personal enmity, than by any other motive.
Mr. H. Lee next rose. He said he put it upon the candor of his colleague from Virginia to declare whether, in his opinion, any gentleman in that House wished to suppress his sentiments, or was disposed to shrink from an avowal of them. If an individual were to judge from the debate of to-day he would infer that it was the desire of some members on that floor to conceal their sentiments from the people. No such thing was the case. We are as anxious as those who differ with us that the people should know what we think, say, and do.
The only question was, whether the Speaker shall exercise a certain power which he can conveniently, and which he has hitherto honorably exercised, or whether we shall assume it with all its inconveniences. He hoped we should not. He feared no inaccuracy so long as the debates published received no sanction from the House.
Have you, said Mr. L., no greater objects to engage your attention than whether this man or that man shall go out of your bar, or remain within it? He thought the House might be better employed.
Mr. Macon understood the subject before the House very much as his colleague did. The question was simply whether we will take upon ourselves inconveniences alleged to exist, or keep the stenographers without the bar. He was convinced that the situations occupied by the stenographers were badly calculated for hearing, as even within the bar the members could scarcely hear each other.
One reason had great weight with him. It was, that if the House made a rule in relation to the admission of the stenographers, it would be placing law in the room of discretion. He preferred a certain rule to a vague discretion.
The danger apprehended from a crowd of stenographers was farcical. Since he had been in Congress he had never seen more than three or four. And if the number admitted should prove inconvenient, it would be time enough, when the inconvenience was experienced, to remedy it.
Mr. S. Smith said the question was entirely one of inconvenience. He would not ascribe to any member a desire to suppress his sentiments. The speeches never went forth as delivered. Yet it was desirable to assign to the stenographers the most convenient places. He had heard gentlemen on both sides of the chair declare they would experience no inconvenience from the admission of the stenographers. For himself, from his situation, he could experience none. He believed, indeed, that the members could be heard from any part of the House, and nearly as well in one place as in another. But as other gentlemen hold a different opinion, and the stenographers had hitherto been admitted within the bar, he had not the least objection, and would vote for their admission.
In this stage of the debate, the Speaker arose, not, he said, to inquire into the consequences of the House acting in the business, but again to repeat the line of conduct he had pursued, and the motives which had influenced his conduct; he did this for the information of members not in the House at the time he had before addressed the House. The Speaker then repeated what he had before stated, viz: that on being appealed to by Mr. Stewart, he had declared to him his decision before any other application had been made; that he had spoken to many members, all of whom, without a single exception, had approved his ideas, and concluded with again declaring, as he had before declared, that the stenographers could not be admitted within the bar without violating the order of the House and the convenience of the members. It was, he said, for the House to decide—to them only was he responsible.
Mr. Nicholas understood it to be the object of those who supported the admission of the stenographers within the bar to place them upon the same footing they had heretofore held. This was his object. All the remarks, therefore, made respecting their independence of the Chair, were inapplicable. They would still be subject to his control, except as to the single point of situation. In short, the business would be restored to its old form.
His colleague had made an appeal to his candor. He wished to know whether he (Mr. N.) thought that he or any other gentleman in that House wished to suppress his sentiments, or was disposed to shrink from an avowal of them? He would answer the appeal made by his colleague, and would tell him that he did not feel himself at liberty to form conjectures respecting the opinions of others, but decided from facts. If he heard gentlemen make use of arguments so weak as those he had heard that day in defence of their sentiments, he would say that their feelings differed essentially from his. He would say that, judging them by their arguments, they do not wish publicity to be given to the debates of this House.
What do the gentlemen tell us? Does it not amount to this: that their complaisance for the Speaker suffers him to judge for them in a case where they are the best judges; and would not this complaisance go to this length, that if the Speaker should judge wrong, they will not interfere to correct his error?
We are told by a gentleman just up, that the application made proceeds from pride, and that it can proceed from nothing else. But the gentleman has not assigned his reasons for this extraordinary charge.
It is contended that any place without the bar will be convenient for the stenographers. Let the place be pointed out. Let the gentlemen who urge this show us a place without the bar inaccessible to the whispers of the members and the pressure of a crowd. Do they imagine that any particular place can be assigned to which they can ensure a profound silence, and from which every person can be withheld? Do they not know, have they not experienced, that when business presses, when subjects of importance are discussed, a crowd is produced, noise ensues, and interposing obstacles render it impossible either to hear or see the members? In such cases, by far the most interesting that can occur, a recess within the bar can be their only protection.
The gentleman from Massachusetts had put the business upon a very extraordinary footing—a footing that he did not expect from him. He represented that it would be safe to trust the reporters to the Speaker's indulgence. For his part, he did not think it would be safe in such hands. Shall the Speaker have the discretion of saying what debates shall be taken and what shall not? Shall he, and he only, have the public ear? Could the Speaker desire this? Surely he could not. He ought rather to desire the House to decide generally than thus impose upon him such an invidious task.
Mr. N. said, he considered those who report the debates as appearing in this House on behalf of the people of the United States, to whom they communicated what passed here. The people were entitled to this information; and if, as observed by the gentleman from Massachusetts, either foreign Ministers or Secretaries, or any other gentleman in long robes, interfered with such an object, they ought to give way. He knew not wherein consisted the propriety of assigning them particular seats. What right had they to exclusive seats? He knew no connection that subsisted between them and this House. Be the right as it may, he was not for sacrificing a solid benefit to mere complaisance.
But a gentleman has told us that one stenographer, for his misrepresentation and insolence, had been discharged by the Speaker. In the course of debate, Mr. N. said, he had studiously avoided any allusion to this circumstance. Nor would he now say any thing about it, as he thought it altogether foreign from the present question.
The respect which gentlemen expressed for the Speaker appeared to him to lead them from the object they professed to have in view. For, at present, the stenographers are not under the control of the Speaker. But admit them within the bar, and if they are guilty of misconduct, if they infringe any of the rules of the House, the Speaker has them within his power.
Some gentlemen apprehend the admission of a crowd of stenographers. The thing is morally impossible. When Congress met in a large populous city, where several daily papers were printed, we saw but two reporters. Here, removed from the busy world, where the demand for that description of labor which arose from publishing the debates was not nearly so great, and, of consequence, the profit less, it could not be expected that there could be more.
Mr. N. concluded by declaring that, in his opinion, it was the duty of the House to decide in this case. The Speaker had changed the established practice of the House. It became, therefore, the House to inquire whether he had done what he ought to have done; which, if he had omitted to do, it devolved on them to see effected.
Mr. Waln spoke in favor of the adoption of the report.
The question was then taken by yeas and nays, on agreeing to the report of the select committee, and carried by the casting vote of the Speaker. There being yeas 45, nays 45, as follows:
Yeas.—Theodore Sedgwick, (Speaker,) George Baer, Bailey Bartlett, John Bird, John Brown, Christopher G. Champlin, William Cooper, William Craik, Samuel W. Dana, John Davenport, Franklin Davenport, John Dennis, William Edmond, Thomas Evans, Abiel Foster, Jonathan Freeman, Henry Glenn, Chauncey Goodrich, Elizur Goodrich, Roger Griswold, William Barry Grove, Archibald Henderson, Benjamin Huger, James H. Imlay, John Wilkes Kittera, Henry Lee, Silas Lee, James Linn, Lewis R. Morris, Harrison G. Otis, Robert Page, Josiah Parker, Jonas Platt, Levin Powell, John Read, Nathan Read, John Rutledge, jr., John C. Smith, Samuel Tenney, George Thatcher, John Chew Thomas, Richard Thomas, Peleg Wadsworth, Robert Waln, Lemuel Williams, and Henry Woods.
Nays.—Willis Alston, Theodorus Bailey, Phanuel Bishop, Robert Brown, Gabriel Christie, Matthew Clay, William C. C. Claiborne, John Condit, Thomas T. Davis, John Dawson, George Dent, Joseph Dickson, Joseph Eggleston, Lucas Elmendorph, Samuel Goode, Edwin Gray, Andrew Gregg, John A. Hanna, Joseph Heister, William H. Hill, David Holmes, George Jackson, James Jones, Aaron Kitchell, Michael Leib, Nathaniel Macon, Peter Muhlenberg, Anthony New, John Nicholas, Joseph H. Nicholson, John Randolph, John Smilie, John Smith, Samuel Smith, Richard Dobbs Spaight, Richard Stanford, David Stone, Thomas Sumter, Benjamin Taliaferro, John Thompson, Abram Trigg, John Trigg, Lyttleton W. Tazewell, Philip Van Cortlandt, and Joseph B. Varnum.