Tuesday, June 27.
Stamp duties.
BANK NOTES.
The House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill laying duties on stamped vellum, parchment, and paper, when
Mr. Nicholas moved to strike out the clause exempting bank notes from duty, as he could see no reason why notes upon which a profit was made, should be exempted from duty more than others. He trusted all notes would be placed on the same footing.
Mr. W. Smith hoped gentlemen did not mean, by moving to strike out this exemption, to destroy the bill. He thought the observation of the gentleman from Connecticut yesterday, against embarrassing the bill by doubtful objects, had weight. On this ground, though he was before of opinion deeds ought to have been inserted, he did not vote for inserting them. He trusted the gentleman had not fully considered the subject, and that when he did so, he would not persist in his motion.
Mr. Nicholas believed if the favorite object of every gentleman were to be exempted, there would be nothing left upon which to lay a tax. If to oppose this, were to defeat the bill, he meant to defeat it; as he wished the tax to go to all objects of the same kind. He had no idea of favoring one interest at the expense of another; he hoped, therefore, his amendment would be agreed to.
Mr. Lyon expected the gentleman from South Carolina was about to have given some reasons why bank notes ought not to be taxed as well as others; but he was disappointed. He believed those who issued these notes got a good profit from them, and that it was, therefore, reasonable they should pay their proportion towards the support of Government.
Mr. W. Smith thought the tax an improper one. Banks were taxed in another part of the bill, on the transfer of their shares. A tax on bank notes, he said, would introduce a vast deal of confusion throughout the country. As for himself he did not care any thing about it; but he believed, if it were agreed to, it would produce so many objections against the bill as to prevent its passing.
Mr. Brooks was against stamping bank notes, as they were not stamped in any country whatever.[19] Indeed they were different from other notes, as they were the representatives of specie; they might, therefore, as well stamp dollars or guineas. In short, the subject was too important and intricate to be gone into at this late period of the session.
Mr. Venable said, in proportion as the tax was general, it would be just. What was the object of the bill? It was to tax that right which an individual possesses in society, of transferring his property, and the evidences of it; it was also to tax him for the right he had of using his credit. Though the argument of the gentleman last up might appear specious, that a bank note was the representative of specie, it was not very solid; it was the representative of the credit of the bank, and circulated for its interest. An individual, if he had sufficient credit, might issue notes as well as a corporation; and, in that case, his notes would be charged with the duty, whilst those of a corporation would not. From whence, said Mr. V., is this reasoning drawn? It was drawn from the doctrine of favoritism—it was meant to favor the moneyed interest, which was already sufficiently encouraged by their incorporation. There seemed to be no objection to the principle; but merely to the convenience of the thing. If it could be shown that the tax would materially operate upon the circulation of bank notes, so as to injure the operation of money transactions, it might have some weight with him; but it was none, to say this bill must pass, and therefore let us avoid any thing in which there may be any difficulty. Such assertions went only to this, where you can tax the property of an individual, do it; but do not meddle with corporations, as this would be attended with some difficulty. He wished, if the bill passed, that it should operate equally.
Mr. Coit wished the gentleman from Virginia would withdraw his motion, until he took the sense of the committee upon one which he proposed to make, and which was calculated, if agreed to, to supersede the one he had made. He would state what it was. It was his opinion that small notes should be exempted from duty. He should propose, therefore, that there should be charged on all notes exceeding fifty dollars and not exceeding one hundred dollars, ten cents, and that all of less value should go free.
After a few remarks upon this motion, in which it was observed that it would defeat the bill entirely, as it would only be to make so many more notes at fifty dollars, if the sum were larger, Mr. Coit consented that the fifty should be struck out and left blank; when the question was taken and negatived, there being only twenty-five votes for it.
Mr. Nicholas renewed his motion.
Mr. Sitgreaves hoped it would not prevail. It had been admitted that if it could be proved that the stamping of bank notes would embarrass their circulation, it would be a good objection to the tax. He believed he could easily show that it would not only impede their circulation, but depreciate their value. The tax would not certainly be made to operate upon notes already issued, but upon those issued after the act took place; so that it would be necessary that every citizen throughout the United States should be acquainted with the date of their law, which would do away all confidence in bank paper. The result of this uncertainty would be that the banks would have to call in all their outstanding notes, which would cause an immediate depreciation of their value. He trusted, therefore, that so objectionable a measure would not be entered upon.
Mr. Gallatin said, he had had his doubts with respect to the propriety of stamping bank notes; he was not sure whether it might not have a dangerous effect on their circulation. On a further consideration of the subject, however, all his doubts had vanished. He now thought this amendment essential, just, and right. Indeed, when they proposed to lay a stamp duty upon all bills and notes, there appeared to be no good reason why the notes of any incorporation whatever should be excepted. He had heard only one objection; which was, that these notes differed essentially from others, because they were the real representatives of specie kept in the bank from whence they were issued. He could not see the distinction endeavored to be drawn. Private notes were always given for some consideration, whether for cash or other property, was of no consequence to them. Indeed, if they turned their attention to the nature of bank notes, they would be found to be a very fair object of taxation.
Where an individual gave his note, it was not likely that he would derive any profit from it; many of such notes were what was called "accommodation notes;" all were acknowledgments of debt, and therefore no proofs of wealth; but bank notes were never issued except to produce a profit to the bank; therefore, to exempt them from duty, would be to exempt those which were best entitled to pay.
The only objection would be, any inconvenience which might take place to counterbalance the benefit to be derived from the tax. It had been supposed that a depreciation would take place in the value of the notes in consequence of this tax. In order to show that this was not probable, he supposed the tax would be laid.
Bank notes were issued and re-issued; but when an individual gave a note, after it was paid, there was an end of it. Bank notes might be issued twenty-times, or oftener; it was necessary, therefore, to tax them in a different way from other notes. He supposed the same provision might be adopted here as was adopted in England. They might be allowed to be issued for a certain number of years—say three. This would remedy every kind of inconvenience arising from reissuing. As to notes now in circulation, the way to prevent inconvenience would be to fix the time after which all notes should be renewed by stamped notes. The consequence would be, that all notes would, by degrees, be returned to the bank, and no difficulty would arise from doing so. Six or nine months might be allowed for this purpose. This was the way in which all the banks in England, except the Bank of England, were subject to the stamp duty; that bank, he believed, had paid a certain sum to be excused from the tax. Perhaps the same privilege might be allowed here.
Mr. Nicholas noticed what had fallen from the gentleman from Pennsylvania on the subject of depreciation, and showed by the regulations under which the tax would be paid, that it could not take place.
Mr. Rutledge thought bank notes a proper object of taxation, and had not heard one good reason why they should be exempted from the proposed duty. The arguments of his colleague (Mr. Smith,) that bank notes now in circulation would be affected, and their currency checked, he would answer, by observing that the duty could not operate upon notes now in circulation; it was not proposed to have them called in, but to have those stamped which shall be issued after a certain day. He did not think the weight and importance which generally attach to the observations of the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Sitgreaves) attach to those now offered by him. With respect to the circulation of bank notes being embarrassed by the necessity there would be for the people at large being acquainted with the date of the law, the objection would apply to private as well as bank notes. The people throughout the country must inform themselves, and the most ignorant will inform themselves of the date of the act; and whenever a bank note or a private note shall be offered to them, they will always inquire if it was issued subsequent or previous to a certain day. The gentleman from New York (Mr. Brooks) was certainly incorrect in saying that "bank paper was not stamped in any country whatever." In Great Britain, Mr. R. said, the paper of all private banks is stamped; that of the Bank of England has been exempted from the stamp duty, by the bank having paid the Government a sum, in gross, by way of commutation. Although the moneyed interest has always been well and largely represented in England, yet bank notes are taxed there, and the circulation of them has not been embarrassed by this duty; on the contrary, the system of banking has been wonderfully extended throughout that kingdom. In every part of it bank notes are current; every town and village has its banks; they are as universal as their churches. Mr. R. asked, where would be the propriety of taxing notes issued by fifty individuals in their individual capacity, and exempting those issued by them when they associated, called themselves a Banking Company, and issued notes to three times the amount of their capital? The measure seemed to him unwise, and he was sure it would be unpopular. He could not conceive why people who had no other property than stock, which, in many instances, yielded an interest of fifteen per cent., should not contribute to the support of Government.
Mr. Swanwick.—The greatest objection which the banks in England seemed to have to the tax, was, that it might ascertain the quantity of notes they had in circulation. In order to prevent this, the Bank of England commuted with Government for a certain sum; but the notes of all the private banks were stamped. He thought it reasonable that this kind of notes should be stamped as well as others, though he would have the tax low; for he saw no reason why merchants should pay, and bankers be excused from the duty, since great emolument was derived from these notes, by the consent of the community, and the community, in return, had a right to expect assistance from the banks.
Mr. W. Smith believed, if an original proposition had been brought forward to tax bank notes, it would have been thought a very serious thing, and they should have paused before they consented to the proposition. Gentlemen who advocated this proposition, allowed it would require many provisions to carry it into effect. What those provisions were he could not pretend to say. He thought bank notes had been too much confounded with notes of individuals, and they were quite different things. Those of individuals were mostly larger, the greatest part of bank notes were for five dollars. Notes of individuals, if not stamped, could not be received in evidence; but he did not know what must be the penalty on bank notes being issued without stamp. Besides, he said, to lay a duty upon the notes issued by the Bank of the United States would be a violation of its charter, for, by that charter, it was said, the notes of that bank should be received at the custom-house in payment of duties. It had been said a commutation might be allowed, but that would be equally contrary to the charter; besides, if such a thing were to be done, he did not know who could do it; it would not be the proper business of the President, and that House would have difficulty in saying what would be a proper sum to be paid for the purpose. He again feared the introduction of this principle would destroy the bill.
Mr. Coit did not think it was quite so clear a thing as some gentlemen seemed to think it, that bank notes ought to be stamped. He did not believe the analogy between the bank and private notes was so strong as had been represented. If the facts were as represented, that every bank note was to be considered as producing a profit to the banker, there would be good ground for the tax; but he was of opinion this was not the case. For instance, if the bank gave their note for one hundred dollars, it was equal evidence with the note of an individual, that they had received the value of one hundred dollars. But if they went further, it would be found the analogy did not hold. The note of the individual was at a certain date, but that of the banker was on demand; and they were every day liable to be called upon for the money of which the note was the representative; so that they were obliged to keep the money, or money at least to a great amount, ready to take up their notes whenever presented. Banks could not, therefore, be considered as receiving a profit on all the notes they issued; but only upon the difference between the amount of notes issued, and the cash they are obliged to keep by them to answer their demands. The analogy, therefore, did not hold; and, if bank notes were taxed, it must be upon a different principle from that on which the notes of individuals are taxed.
Mr. Potter was in favor of the amendment, and he trusted that gentlemen who were always ready to go into every species of expense, would not flinch when the object was to raise money. He had this morning voted for a bill laying additional tax on licenses, which he believed would be found in some degree oppressive, but he did it because he knew revenue was wanted. He hoped the gentleman from South Carolina would, on this occasion, concur in the proposed tax. He doubted not unexceptionable means might be devised for collecting it; if not, it might be given up.
Mr. Harper was against the amendment, not because he was satisfied bank notes were not a proper object of taxation, but because he did not wish to embarrass the bill with a subject which they had not time to consider.
Mr. Swanwick again spoke in favor of the tax.
Mr. Otis was against the amendment; not because he thought such a tax would be improper, but from the difficulties which would attend the carrying it into effect. Besides, he said, if the notes were to revert to the bank every two or three years, it would cause a run upon them for cash, instead of renewed notes, which might be very inconvenient.
Mr. Venable did not think the run upon the bank which the gentleman had mentioned could take place, as the notes would have to be renewed three years from the time issued, and all their notes would not be issued on one day. Mr. V. again insisted that this tax should be general; and if they had not time to make it so, it ought to be put off till they had. Not to include bankers would be to lay a tax upon the people whose complaints of its hardships could not be heard. He deprecated this as unjust.
Mr. Harper could not conceive that the great body of merchants and farmers throughout the United States were people who could not make their complaints heard, if they had them to make. The proprietors of banks, Mr. H. said, already paid taxes in a variety of shapes; many of them were merchants, and would, of course, pay the tax imposed on the notes of individuals.
Mr. Brooks was against going into a tax on bank notes at present, but denied that there would be any cause of complaint from the people on account of the taxes imposed by this bill. He wished to make a beginning with a stamp tax at present; it might not be completed these seven years. Gentlemen might as well go on and propose a tax on newspapers, which, whatever might be said against it, he believed might be laid without infringing the liberty of the press; but a thing of this kind would require a great deal of detail.
Mr. Claiborne was in favor of including bank notes; not to do this, he said, would be to catch small fish, and let the large ones pass.
Mr. Gallatin said that the provisions for laying this tax would be by no means difficult. Indeed, three-fourths of the bill was copied from the British statute, and that part respecting bank notes could be as easy copied as any other part. The observations respecting the charter of the Bank of the United States, were not deserving of a reply. There was only one of two things which could be done, either to tax bank notes, or to excuse all other notes from the tax.
Mr. Sitgreaves could not submit to hear that it was the intention of those who opposed this motion, to screen the moneyed interest of this country from paying a tax. He had no such views. He had no objection to tax the banks in proportion to the amount of their business; but he could not agree to its being done in this way. If gentlemen would estimate how much the stamp duty of a bank would produce to the United States, he would vote for a sum of this kind by way of commutation. Charges could rarely be made against the side of the House with whom he generally acted, for not being willing to vote for revenue; a contrary charge was more frequently made. He trusted the amendment would not be agreed to; but that if the tax were laid, it would be by way of commutation.
The question was taken and carried, there being 55 votes in favor of it.
The committee rose and had leave to sit again.
The resolution respecting an adjournment was received from the Senate, and disagreed to. The disagreement being read, Mr. Giles moved the same resolution filled with Monday next; but Mr. Williams opposed it, and moved to adjourn.