Wednesday, January 5, 1803.
Cession of Louisiana to France.
Mr. Griswold called up his resolution respecting Louisiana, laid on the table yesterday, as follows:
Resolved, That the President of the United States be requested to direct the proper officer to lay before this House copies of such official documents as have been received by this Government, announcing the cession of Louisiana to France, together with a report explaining the stipulations, circumstances, and conditions, under which that province is to be delivered up: unless such documents and report will, in the opinion of the President, divulge to the House particular transactions not proper at this time to be communicated.
The question was put on taking it into consideration, and carried—yeas 35, nays 32.
Mr. Randolph observed that the discussion on this motion might embrace points nearly connected with the subject referred to a committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, and which had been discussed with closed doors. He therefore thought it would be expedient to commit this motion also to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, to whom had been committed the Message of the President respecting New Orleans.
Mr. Griswold hoped the motion would not prevail. He did not see what argument could be urged in favor of it. The resolution related to a public transaction stated on their journal. He did not think that any thing which ought to be kept secret could be involved in the discussion of it. What is its purport? It only requests the President to furnish documents respecting "the cession of the Spanish province of Louisiana to France, which took place in the course of the late war," and which the President says "will, if carried into effect, make a change in the aspect of our foreign relations, which will doubtless have just weight in any deliberations of the Legislature connected with this subject."
Are not, said Mr. G., these papers important to the House? Does not the President refer to them as important to enlighten us? He speaks of the cession as a fact. He took it for granted the President would not make the declaration unless he had official information of its truth. Ought not the House to be possessed of all the important information in the power of the Executive to give? It certainly ought. Every gentleman would agree that the House ought to have all the information. If the information is confidential, it will be received with closed doors. But the question, whether the House shall obtain this information is a public question; and there was not a man within those walls, or in the United States, who would not say that the Legislature ought to possess every information on a subject so deeply interesting. Why, then, refer this resolution calling for information to a committee? Why postpone it? They had but a short time to sit. More than half the session was already elapsed. Is it not time to gain information? Mr. G. said, he would venture to declare that no subject so important could be brought before the Legislature this session. Ought we not, therefore, on such a subject, to take immediate means to gain information? He hoped the House would not agree to the reference, which could have no effect but to put the resolution asleep, and deprive the Legislature of information they ought to possess.
Mr. Randolph said, as he had expressed his disinclination to discuss a proposition with open doors which would trench on the decision of the House to discuss a subject to which it intimately related with closed doors, it could scarcely be expected that he should indulge the gentleman in entering into arguments calculated to carry him from his purpose. But he denied that the adoption of his motion would be a refusal to give information. He well knew that there was nothing easier than to declare the subject vastly important, and to make an eloquent harangue upon it, and to infer that those who did not immediately agree to the resolution were averse to giving information, and to going into a discussion of the merits of the main subject. It would, however, not be expected that he should enter upon these on a preliminary resolution. But he would assure the gentleman who had submitted this resolution, that, so far from indulging any disposition to be dilatory in his attention to this important subject, he came yesterday prepared to make a motion that the House should go into a Committee of the Whole on the subject, which motion he should have then made but for that offered by the gentleman from Connecticut.
Mr. Rutledge said that, did he consider that the giving publicity to any information on this subject would in the least interfere with the constitutional functions of the President, he would be the last man to support the resolution of his friend from Connecticut. But he could not conceive that this could be its effect. What were they about to ask? They were about to ask, in respectful terms, the President for information relative to what he states as a fact; so much information as he may think it expedient to give. Surely there would be no impropriety in this. The cession of Louisiana had been stated in all the public prints of Europe and this country, and on the floor of the British Parliament. This cession had been made a year ago, and, notwithstanding the elapse of this time, we have received no official information on this subject. Is it not natural for the people to ask why Congress do not call for this information? Will they not say the President has done his duty in stating the fact? Upon this subject, so very important, are they to be kept in the dark? Mr. R. could not conceive any turn of the debate on this resolution that could produce a discussion of the merits of the Message referred to the Committee of the Whole. If the President shall say the information he gives us ought not to be made public, he would answer for himself, and he believed he could answer for his friends, that they would not seek a public discussion. And if the information is imparted without confidence, the House, if it see fit, can itself control a public discussion. Mr. R. concluded with saying that, in the present case, he was for deciding on the resolution with open doors.
Mr. S. Smith thought this point ought in a great measure to be determined by the custom of the House in similar cases. He did not assert it as a fact, but, from recollection, he believed it was so, that when a call was made for papers in the case of the British Treaty, the question was referred to a Committee of the Whole, and there fully discussed. According to his recollection, one side of the House called for papers on the principle that, after negotiations were terminated, the House had a right to information before they made a grant of money under a treaty, but acknowledging that a call for such information might be improper during a pending negotiation. He was one of those who thought it proper, on that occasion, that the House should have the papers; but he also thought it improper, and had then so declared, to call for papers during a pending negotiation. Whether in the present instance a negotiation was pending or was not, he did not know. He was, therefore, for postponing the resolution till this was known to the House.
Mr. Dana said that he did not know, nor had he heard from any quarter, that there was any negotiation depending respecting the cession of Louisiana. The President has informed us of the fact. All that the resolution asks are official documents respecting the cession, with the stipulations, circumstances, and conditions, under which it is to be delivered up. He could not see the impropriety of such a request. But if the President deem it improper to furnish the information, we do not assert our right to demand it. There are two views in which this information may be important; that which may throw light on the boundaries of the province as ceded; and another, whether the province is to be ceded to the French in the condition it shall be in when actually delivered up, or whether subject to the conditions in which it was held according to treaty by Spain. This is important information to guide our deliberations; information not depending upon an existing negotiation, but upon a negotiation decided.
Mr. Griswold called for the taking of the yeas and nays.
Mr. Smilie was in favor of the widest publicity in every case where it would not prove injurious; and there were, in his opinion, very few cases in which it ought not to take place. He could not, however, withhold one remark; that gentlemen should object to the mode now proposed, a mode similar to that adopted in like cases, greatly surprised him. [He here quoted the proceedings of the House on a call for papers in the case of the British Treaty.] That case furnished a precedent, by which it appeared that a motion for information was referred to a Committee of the Whole for a more full discussion.
Mr. Davis observed that, as he lived in that district of country most materially affected by the subject before the House, he thought it proper to express his opinion on the motion. He said he did not know what reason could be assigned for the motion, but that expressed by the gentleman from Virginia, to go into a Committee of the Whole in private, to propose certain resolutions that required secrecy.
Mr. D. said it had been his purpose yesterday to have submitted certain resolutions, which he should have done, but for the motion of the gentleman from Connecticut calling for information; after it was made he was willing to wait until all information was obtained that could be furnished. Suppose we go into a Committee of the Whole, what light can we expect from their deliberation? We can gain nothing. But let the call for information prevail; let us draw from the President such information as he may think it proper to give; and let us then refer that information to a Committee of the Whole, and they will be able to deliberate wisely. What use can it be to take a step from which no benefit can be derived? As to the call on the President, he will not give us any thing that is improper. How does the gentleman from Virginia know what light this information may throw on the subject? Is he prepared to say it will throw no light on this subject? If he is, Mr. D. said he himself was not. He might have ways of acquiring the secrets of the Cabinet; but for himself he had no such opportunities. Mr. D. concluded by declaring himself against the motion.
Mr. Randolph was compelled again reluctantly to trespass on the indulgence of the House, to assure them, and the gentleman from Kentucky, that his motion did not comprehend a refusal to agree to the call for information made by the gentleman from Connecticut. After going into committee, they might, perhaps, either by a unanimous vote, or by that of a majority, agree to the resolution. Benefit might arise, and no mischief possibly could, from going into a Committee of the Whole.
Mr. Huger must acknowledge that he could not understand the object of those who were for refusing this information. If they had any objection to asking the information, let them inform us what it is. And if they have no objection, why go into a Committee of the Whole; which, if gone into, must be with closed doors? The question alluded to in the British Treaty was very different from this. In that case, one part of the House thought they had a right to demand the information of the Executive, and that he was bound to deliver it; while the other part of the House neither acknowledged the right to demand, nor the obligation to obey. The present case was entirely different. We ask nothing but what the Executive shall think proper to furnish, we are as cautious as we can possibly be; we even go so far as to put words in the President's mouth, if he shall think there is any impropriety in giving the information. Gentlemen certainly have confidence in the Executive, that he will tell us if the information is improper to be furnished.
Mr. H. could not but express his surprise that the House had received no official documents on this important subject. He could not comprehend why Congress should not know the contents of the convention. If proper, we ought to have these documents; and if not proper, we ought to have a reason for it. The country was in a state of serious alarm; and it might have a bad effect if something was not immediately done, and a disposition exhibited to act, in case it should prove necessary.
Mr. Smilie said the gentleman, from South Carolina (Mr. Huger) was incorrect, when he stated that, in the case of the British Treaty one set of gentlemen had contended for the right of the House to demand papers. If this had been so, the resolution then proposed would have been peremptory; whereas the fact was that it was qualified by an exception of such papers as the President might consider it improper to furnish. [Mr. Smilie here quoted the journals, which confirmed his remark.]
Mr. Gregg said it would be allowed that this was an important resolution, which related to an important subject. This was, he believed, the first instance in which a resolution allowed to be important, had been refused a reference to a Committee of the Whole. On this principle his vote would be decided. If the motion did not prevail he should then move that the resolution should be printed before it was acted upon.
Mr. Griswold would not object to the reference if the object were to obtain a more full discussion of the resolution. He was generally in favor of such references, as the discussion was conducted in a Committee of the Whole on a freer scale than in the House. On this principle it was, that the call for papers respecting the British Treaty was referred to a Committee of the Whole. But it had not been referred to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union.
He, however, understood the object of gentlemen to be to refer the resolution to a Committee of the Whole, for the purpose of discussing it with closed doors. If that were the object, he should oppose it. For, he would say, nothing of secrecy could arise out of the discussion of this resolution. He did not wish that a resolution so important should be referred to a secret committee. If gentlemen mean to deny us this information, let them deny it in public. Let them not do it in a secret committee. Surely they can have no such unworthy motives.
As to the case of 1796, under the British Treaty, the ground of opposition was this: It was claimed that the House had a right to decide upon a treaty, and to establish this point papers were called for. And on the decision of the question, on the granting or refusing the application, depended the establishment of the right of the House to participate in the treaty-making power. This right was denied by those who voted against the call. But in this case there was no difference as to the power of the House. The President in his Message had expressly stated that the cession would have weight in the deliberations of the Legislature. This, then, being a case in which it is proper to legislate, shall we go to work blindfold, without having all the information possessed by the Executive, that it is proper we should possess? What do we know respecting the cession? Though made for more than one year, we have no information, except that contained in the Message, which barely mentions the fact. For these reasons Mr. G. hoped the motion would not prevail, as its avowed object was not for a more full discussion, but for the purpose of going into a secret committee. If gentlemen mean to deny us the information we ask, let the denial be public; and if they grant it, there is no reason against their doing it publicly.
Mr. Randolph.—The gentleman from Connecticut tells us that this subject is referred to in the Message of the President, and that on it we are called by him to legislate. That subject has been referred to a Committee of the Whole; and yet, he says, it is improper to refer this resolution to the same committee. This may be logic; but I confess, if it is, I do not understand it. He says if the object of reference be for a more ample discussion, he will be in favor of it; but not so, if it be to send it to a secret committee. Does the gentleman mean to insinuate that the debates of this body are for the entertainment of the ladies who honor us with their presence; or that as soon as our doors are shut, our ears also are shut to all useful and necessary information? If the doors shall be closed, cannot we still agree to the resolution? However gentlemen may persist in the course they have taken, I shall not permit the warmth of their remarks, or that of my own feelings, to betray me into a debate on points which the House have determined shall be discussed with closed doors. For my own part, I am ready to declare that I have arguments to advance, that it is not my wish to advance with open doors.
Mr. Bacon said the resolution simply called for information respecting the cession of the province of Louisiana to the French. He did not see the end to be answered by committing it. Is there any doubt that we shall not stand in need of information when we come to discuss points connected with this subject? It appeared to him they would. He was therefore against the reference.
Mr. S. Smith.—The gentleman from Connecticut has candidly admitted that it is customary in such cases to make a reference; that he is not in favor of the reference being made to a committee with shut doors; but if the object were to obtain a free discussion, he would not object to it. He is told that a full and free discussion cannot be had without such a reference, and yet he persists in his hostility to the motion. He had been told so by the mover, and common sense would have told him so at first; yet he is for taking advantage of the mover, and for shutting out the arguments he has to urge. The gentleman is mistaken in his statement of the motives of the different sides of the House in the discussion on a call for papers, in 1796, when he represents one side as claiming a right to participate in the treaty-making power. He recollected it had been charged upon them; but they had denied it. We contended, said Mr. S., that when a treaty was formed, appropriating a large sum of money, we had a right to appropriate or not to appropriate the money; but we never assumed the right to say whether the treaty was concluded or not. Afterwards, gentlemen themselves, if he recollected right, moved a resolution that it was expedient to carry the treaty into effect, by which they did admit the right of the House. Mr. S. said he had no previous knowledge of what the gentleman from Virginia meant by his motion; he might perhaps wish to amend the resolution; but when he says he has arguments that he cannot urge without shut doors, he trusted that indulgence would be allowed him, or there would be a denial of justice.
Mr. Dana said, there was a magic of language, to those unaccustomed to parliamentary language, in the House resolving itself into a committee, and that committee returning itself back into the House, both composed of the same members, that made the proceedings of public bodies appear ridiculous. But there were substantial benefits derived from the observance of these forms. There was a fuller and freer discussion; every member spoke as often as he chose, and they enjoyed the Speaker's advice. There were, besides, two discussions and decisions, instead of one. He admitted, therefore, the propriety of such procedure in all cases where there was an important principle involved. But in this instance there was no important principle to discuss. There was an important principle involved in the famous question of 1796. It was therefore right to refer it to a Committee of the Whole. He did not know what principle was to be discussed on this reference, unless it was the want of information. This he most sensibly felt; and those gentlemen who also felt it, might, he thought, be indulged by those who possess all information on the subject. If any gentleman, however, will say that any important principle is involved in the resolution, he was ready to go into Committee of the Whole, though not with closed doors.
The question was then taken by yeas and nays on Mr. Randolph's motion, to refer the resolution of Mr. Griswold to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, and carried—yeas 49, nays 39, as follows:
Yeas.—Willis Alston, John Archer, Theodorus Bailey, Richard Brent, Robert Brown, William Butler, Thomas Claiborne, Matthew Clay, John Clopton, John Condit, Richard Cutts, John Dawson, Lucas Elmendorph, Ebenezer Elmer, William Eustis, Edwin Gray, Andrew Gregg, John A. Hanna, Joseph Heister, William Hoge, James Holland, David Holmes, George Jackson, Michael Leib, David Meriwether, Samuel L. Mitchill, Thomas Moore, Anthony New, Thomas Newton, jr., Joseph H. Nicholson, John Randolph, jr., John Smilie, John Smith, (of New York,) John Smith, (of Virginia,) Josiah Smith, Samuel Smith, Henry Southard, Richard Stanford, Joseph Stanton, jr., John Stewart, John Taliaferro, jr., David Thomas, Philip R. Thompson, Abraham Trigg, John Trigg, Philip Van Cortlandt, Joseph B. Varnum, Isaac Van Horne, and Thomas Wynns.
Nays.—John Bacon, Phanuel Bishop, Thos. Boude, John Campbell, Manasseh Cutler, Samuel W. Dana, John Davenport, Thomas T. Davis, John Dennis, Wm. Dickson, Calvin Goddard, Roger Griswold, William Barry Grove, Seth Hastings, William Helms, Joseph Hemphill, Archibald Henderson, Benjamin Huger, Samuel Hunt, Thomas Lowndes, Ebenezer Mattoon, Lewis R. Morris, Thomas Morris, James Mott, Elias Perkins, Thomas Plater, Nathan Read, John Rutledge, William Shepard, John Cotton Smith, John Stanley, Benjamin Tallmadge, Samuel Tenney, Samuel Thatcher, Thos. Tillinghast, George B. Upham, Peleg Wadsworth, Lemuel Williams, and Henry Woods.
On motion of Mr. Griswold, the House immediately went into Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union.
Mr. Randolph rose, and observed that he held in his hands certain resolutions connected with the Message of the President, relative to the late proceedings at New Orleans, the discussion of which had been ordered to be carried on with closed doors. He asked the decision of the question, whether, previously to offering his resolutions, the doors ought not to be closed? The resolutions he meant to submit grew out of the Message. If the House, however, insisted upon their being then read, he had no indisposition to read them.
The Chairman considered the committee as incompetent to clearing the galleries. He thought it must be the act of the House.
Mr. Dawson inquired if the same rules that applied to the House, did not also apply to Committees of the Whole?
Mr. Randolph called for the reading of the President's Message respecting New Orleans.
Mr. Griswold said there was other business, not requiring secrecy, referred to the committee.
Mr. Randolph repeated his call for the reading of the President's Message.
The Chairman asked what Message?
Mr. Randolph replied, the confidential Message.
Mr. Griswold said that could not be read with open doors.
The Chairman said the doors could not be closed without an order of the House.
Mr. S. Smith observed that it had been customary to clear the galleries before the House went into committee. To save time, he would move that the committee should rise, in order to obtain an order of the House to that effect.
Mr. Griswold hoped the committee would not rise. The business he had proposed was of a public, not of a private nature. It was also of a pressing nature, and ought not to be postponed for any other business.
Mr. Dana hoped, indeed, for the honor of the House, they would not exhibit the spectacle of wasting time in going into committee and then coming out of it without doing any thing, but would proceed to the public business.
Mr. Rutledge.—The gentleman from Virginia holds in his hands resolutions that require secrecy. After deciding on the motion of the gentleman from Connecticut, he will not be precluded from offering these resolutions.
Mr. Eustis said if the House had resolved itself into a committee for the express purpose of taking into consideration the resolution of the gentleman from Connecticut, it would be proper to give it the preference over any other business; and in that case he should have been as ready at this moment as at any other to offer his objections to it. But if it were understood that the House had resolved itself generally into a Committee on the state of the Union, one gentleman from Virginia having made a motion, and another gentleman from Connecticut having afterwards made another motion, that made by the last gentleman being junior in point of time ought to be last attended to. The other gentleman's motion was first in course; and if the gentleman who offered it desired the galleries to be cleared, he had an undoubted right to an order to that effect.
Mr. Macon (Speaker) remarked that a Committee of the whole House was one committee, and a Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union another committee. They were distinct committees. The last was never formed for special purposes. He did not recollect that this had ever been done. Whereas the other committee was always formed for a special purpose. The difficulty in this case had arisen from referring the confidential Message to a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. He believed it would be well to rise, and separate the two subjects that had been referred to the Committee on the state of the Union.
Mr. Griswold did not understand what the gentleman from Massachusetts meant by priority of motion. The Chairman had determined that the motion of the gentleman from Virginia was not in order, as it could not be submitted to a public committee. After this disposition of that motion, none remained before the committee other than his own. In point of priority, he rose, therefore, to have his resolution then decided upon. With regard to the proposition of the honorable Speaker, he did not see any reason for it. Was it not as well to decide on this resolution in this committee as in any other committee? Why, then, rise for the purpose of referring it to a secret committee?
Mr. S. Smith said, the gentleman from Massachusetts meant by his remarks that the Message of the President had precedence. The gentleman from Connecticut was only now urging what had been decided against him in the House. He thinks he has now an advantage, and presses it.
Mr. S. said, he had not a doubt that the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. Rutledge) is very sincere in his opinion, that, if we will agree to submit all power to them, they will indulge us by agreeing to certain subordinate points. But gentlemen will excuse us. We have already taken great pains to divest them of power, and we are not yet disposed to return it into their hands.
We are of opinion that the Message ought to be discussed with closed doors; that is the intention of the motion; let us not take advantage of those who have arguments to offer which they wish not to submit with open doors; let the committee rise, and the galleries be cleared.
Mr. Dana, in one point, fully agreed with the gentleman from Maryland. They had taken great pains to get power. But he regretted that any political party allusion whatever had been made on this subject. He had supposed it so important, so deeply interesting to all America, that he had hoped all spirit of party would have slept during our deliberations on it; and that we should have shown that we entertained but one sentiment, and were ready, if necessary, to extend one arm in defence of our invaded rights.
Mr. L. R. Morris expressed his disagreement with the Speaker on a point of order—
When the question was taken on the rising of the committee, and carried in the affirmative—ayes 49, noes 37.
The committee accordingly rose, and the Chairman reported that they had come to no resolution.
A motion was made to adjourn, on which Mr. Griswold called the yeas and nays; which were—yeas 38, nays 51.
Navigation of the Mississippi.
[Secret Session.]
The House was then cleared of all persons, except the members and the Clerk: Whereupon the House resumed the consideration of a confidential communication from the President of the United States, received the thirty-first ultimo.
Ordered, That the Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union, to whom was referred the Message of the President of the United States of the twenty-second and thirtieth ultimo, be discharged from the consideration thereof; and that the said Message, together with the documents transmitted therewith, be committed to a Committee of the whole House to-morrow.
On a motion made and seconded that the House do come to the following resolution:
Resolved, That this House receive, with great sensibility, the information of a disposition in certain officers of the Spanish Government at New Orleans, to obstruct the navigation of the river Mississippi, as secured to the United States by the most solemn stipulations.
That, adhering to the humane and wise policy which ought ever to characterize a free people, and by which the United States have always professed to be governed; willing, at the same time, to ascribe this breach of compact to the unauthorized misconduct of certain individuals, rather than to a want of good faith on the part of His Catholic Majesty; and relying with perfect confidence on the vigilance and wisdom of the Executive, they will wait the issue of such measures as that department of the Government shall have pursued for asserting the rights and vindicating the injuries of the United States; holding it to be their duty, at the same time, to express their unalterable determination to maintain the boundaries, and the rights of navigation and commerce through the river Mississippi, as established by existing treaties.
Ordered, That the said motion be referred to the Committee of the whole House last appointed.