Warren Commission (02 of 26): Hearings Vol. II (of 15)

by United States. Warren Commission

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE

The Chairman. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. Paine, I will just read a brief statement concerning the purpose of the meeting today which is our practice.

The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. Michael R. Paine. The Commission has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. Paine made the acquaintance of the Oswalds during 1963, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Paine home from late September 1963 up to the time of the assassination.

Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his associations and relations with others, as well as questions concerning any and all matters relating to the assassination.

You have been furnished a copy of this, have you not?

Mr. Paine. I have seen something to that effect.

The Chairman. You have seen it.

Very well, will you rise and raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Paine. I do.

The Chairman. You may be seated; Mr. Liebeler will propound the questions to you.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you state your name, please?

Mr. Paine. Michael R. Paine.

Mr. Liebeler. And your address?

Mr. Paine. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.

Mr. Liebeler. When were you born, Mr. Paine?

Mr. Paine. June 25, 1928.

Mr. Liebeler. Where?

Mr. Paine. New York City.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us briefly your educational background, where you attended schools?

Mr. Paine. I went to school, high school in New York, went to 2 years of Harvard and a year of Swarthmore, I have not finished college.

Mr. Dulles. What class would you have been in Swarthmore?

Mr. Paine. 1953.

Mr. Dulles. You would have been 1953 if you finished or did you finish?

Mr. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Dulles. Excuse me.

Mr. Liebeler. You are presently married, are you not?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. Your wife's name is?

Mr. Paine. Ruth Hyde Paine.

Mr. Liebeler. You have two children?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us who your parents are.

Mr. Paine. Lyman Paine is my father and Ruth Forbes Paine Young, or Young is her present name. Mrs. Arthur Young now. She is my mother.

Mr. Liebeler. Where is your father living at the present time?

Mr. Paine. He is in Los Angeles.

Mr. Liebeler. Your mother?

Mr. Paine. Philadelphia.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any brothers and sisters?

Mr. Paine. I have a brother in Baltimore.

Mr. Liebeler. What is his name?

Mr. Paine. Cameron Paine.

Mr. Liebeler. By whom are you presently employed?

Mr. Paine. Bell Helicopter, Fort Worth.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have a security clearance in connection with your work at Bell Helicopter?

Mr. Paine. I suppose it is. I don't happen to know what the classification is.

Mr. Liebeler. Where did you work prior to working for Bell Helicopter?

Mr. Paine. I worked in Pennsylvania for Arthur Young.

Mr. Liebeler. What was the nature of your employment with Mr. Young?

Mr. Paine. I had set up a shop in his barn and started work for myself and then he employed me making models, helicopter models for himself.

Mr. Liebeler. Approximately at what time, what period of time did you work for Mr. Young?

Mr. Paine. That is very difficult to say. I began more or less gradually first. I was doing other things. I am very vague about the dates.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know the year approximately?

Mr. Paine. I suppose I went to work at Bell in 1958. I have been there 4½ years.

Mr. Dulles. Is this Mr. Young your stepfather?

Mr. Paine. That is right

Mr. Liebeler. And you worked for him immediately prior to your going to Bell Helicopter?

Mr. Paine. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. Prior to working for Mr. Young, did you have any other employment?

Mr. Paine. I think I came from the Army. Before that I worked at Bartol Research Foundation in Swarthmore.

Mr. Liebeler. You were going to tell us what that was.

Mr. Paine. That was mostly a job of setting up a laboratory to—was nuclear research laboratory, Van Der Graaf generators it had there.

Mr. Liebeler. What was the nature of your work with Bartol?

Mr. Paine. Mostly all the work in making those machines, setting those machines so they would run; making counters, coincidence counters, instrumentation to operate the machine.

Mr. Liebeler. How long did you work for Bartol?

Mr. Paine. That was just about a year, I believe.

Mr. Liebeler. Prior to that did you have any other employment?

Mr. Paine. No, that was Swarthmore.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever work for the Griswold Manufacturing Co.

Mr. Paine. Oh, I did; yes. That was after—well, after the Army. I think it was only a few months, I don't remember when it fitted in.

Mr. Liebeler. What was the nature of your work with that company?

Mr. Paine. That was very boring. It was engraving precision scales.

Mr. Liebeler. You worked in the actual engraving of the scales?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. What is the nature of your work with Bell Helicopter at the present time?

Mr. Paine. I am called a research engineer. I work in a lab and design and build and test models of new concepts of helicopter configurations.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you been engaged in that type of work for Bell throughout the entire time you have been employed by them?

Mr. Paine. I have been in the research laboratory research group that long. It has all been problems——

Mr. Dulles. Are you a helicopter pilot by any chance yourself?

Mr. Paine. I am an airplane pilot.

Mr. Liebeler. But your work basically for Bell has been in the research of design and operation of helicopters?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us the circumstances under which you met your wife and subsequently married her?

Mr. Paine. I met her at a folk dance party, folk dance meeting, and I had known her for about 2 years before we married.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you meet her approximately?

Mr. Paine. We were married, I think, in 1958, it was the end of the year so maybe it was 1957. What was the question again?

Mr. Liebeler. Approximately when you met her.

Mr. Paine. Two years before that would be, 1957.

Mr. Liebeler. 1956 or 1957.

Mr. Paine. Yes.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Liebeler. We understand that you are a Quaker, Mr. Paine, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That is not quite correct.

When I was in Philadelphia, I sang in various churches, and Ruth being a Quaker, started going to Quaker meetings. Had I remained there I would have become a Quaker. Moving to Texas there was a very small Quaker community, and I joined the Unitarian Church after a while.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you first become interested in the Quaker religion; was it about the time you met your wife or was it before that.

Mr. Paine. No; I think she was instrumental in bringing me into that circle.

Mr. Liebeler. Give us a brief description of the outside interests that you and your wife and that your wife had during the time subsequent to your meeting and until the time you left Philadelphia. Was she active in church activities?

Mr. Paine. No; I wouldn't say so. She was active in the Young Friends Committee of North America which was making an effort to bring a group of Russians on tour of this country. It was in the first flush or enthusiasm of East-West contacts, and after a couple of years they did succeed in bringing those Russians on tour. That was the beginning of her interest in Russian, learning the Russian language. I think that was her only activity that I am aware of or remember right now.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether your wife engaged in a writing campaign or a pen pal campaign between people in the United States and people in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Paine. That was another part of this East-West contacts committee's duties or tasks they took upon themselves and I think she was chairman, accepted the chairmanship of that committee.

For a while, it was almost moribund, very inactive.

Mr. Dulles. Which committee was that, the committee to stimulate letters between Russia and the United States?

Mr. Paine. Yes; to find names and addresses on each side to connect people together.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you yourself ever take part in any activity of that group?

Mr. Paine. No; I didn't.

Mr. Liebeler. You spoke of the East-West contacts committee as being active in trying to bring a group of Russians to the United States. Did they engage in any activities other than this attempt to bring Russians to the United States that you know of?

Mr. Paine. That is the only one I know of, yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Did they succeed in bringing some Russians to the United States?

Mr. Paine. Yes; they did. They brought three Russians, and then the Russians reciprocated by taking a group of Quakers who knew Russian on a tour of Russia.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you married to Ruth Hyde Paine at the time these Russian people came to the United States under the auspices of the East-West contacts committee?

Mr. Paine. I might have been; I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether she actively participated in the program to bring the Russians to the United States?

Mr. Paine. Well, she participated insofar as going to the meetings. I don't believe she did most of the writing to the State Department and what-not to try to arrange clearances and itineraries and things like that, but she was at the meetings at which those things were discussed.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she ever discuss them with you in any detail?

Mr. Paine. We, I would often—I went to several of those meetings myself.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know the names of any of the Russians who came to the United States in connection with this program?

Mr. Paine. I might recognize them if I saw them again, but right now the names have escaped me.

Mr. Liebeler. You say there were just three of them?

Mr. Paine. I think there were three; yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you become a member of that organization?

Mr. Paine. I suppose you become a member as soon as you contribute money, and I may have contributed money a good many years back. I didn't start going to a meeting of the organization until I was—I have only been to about four perhaps, in Dallas, four meetings.

Mr. Liebeler. Is Dallas the only place you have attended meetings of the ACLU?

Mr. Paine. To my knowledge.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you acquainted with an organization known as the Friends Peace Committee?

Mr. Paine. It is a familiar name. I guess not, though. I don't think I have been to a meeting of theirs.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know if it is connected in any way with the Young Friends Committee of North America.

Mr. Paine. I take it to be a Friend, you know, a Quaker committee but I believe it is connected.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Dennis Jamison, who I believe is active in the Friends Peace Committee?

Mr. Paine. I don't think so.

Mr. Liebeler. Or George Lakey?

Mr. Paine. For practical purposes; no. The names seem a little familiar but I can't place them.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of the connection in which it is familiar to you?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you familiar with the Committee for Non-Violent Action?

Mr. Paine. Many of these things sound familiar. I don't—I really am saying no.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you a member or have you ever attended any meetings of the John Birch Society?

Mr. Paine. I am not a member. I have been to one or, I guess chiefly one meeting of theirs.

Mr. Liebeler. Where was that?

Mr. Paine. That was in Dallas?

Mr. Liebeler. When?

Mr. Paine. That was the night Stevenson spoke in Dallas.

The Chairman. When?

Mr. Paine. The night Stevenson spoke in Dallas, U.N. Day.

Representative Ford. Was that 1963?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us the circumstances of your attendance at that meeting and what happened?

Mr. Paine. I had been seeking to go to a Birch meeting for some time, and then I was invited on this night so I went. It was an introductory meeting.

Mr. Dulles. On the 9th of November?

Mr. Paine. It was November something, I don't know what, a Wednesday or Thursday night.

Mr. Liebeler. For the record I think the record should indicate that Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas on or about October 24, 1963. Who invited you to this meeting?

Mr. Paine. I had tried once before to go to a meeting which didn't occur. There happens to be a member of our choir, a paid soloist who is a John Birch advocate so I have been applying—so I have been telling her, that I wanted to go. I suppose, I don't remember for certain but I suppose she was the one who told me where and when.

Mr. Liebeler. Did this meeting have anything to do with the activity that occurred at Mr. Stevenson's meeting in Dallas?

Mr. Paine. No. You see they were taking place at the same time. It was rather sparsely attended, most of them were down spitting on Stevenson.

Mr. Liebeler. The Birch meeting which you were down to was sparsely attended?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Was this an evening meeting or afternoon?

Mr. Paine. This is evening.

Representative Ford. Evening.

Mr. Dulles. May I ask, did you go out of curiosity rather than sympathy or rather how did you happen to go?

Mr. Paine. I am not in sympathy.

Mr. Dulles. So I gathered.

Mr. Paine. I have been to a number of rightist meetings and seminars in Texas. I was interested in seeing more communication between the right and the left; there isn't much liberal out there and so I wanted to be able to speak their language and know that their fears—and be familiar with their feelings and attitudes.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there any discussion at this meeting as far as you can recall of Mr. Stevenson's appearance in Dallas?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't believe there was any.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there any discussion of the policy of the Kennedy administration?

Mr. Paine. There was no discussion at that meeting. It was a 2- or 3-hour lecture on a movie by Welch, and then a young man gave a few more explanations about the organization. It was mostly an introductory meeting. I think for newcomers.

Mr. Liebeler. Telling them about the John Birch Society itself?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Welch was not there, was he?

Mr. Paine. No; he was not.

Representative Ford. Was this a movie in which he participated?

Mr. Paine. He was the speaker at a lectern in this movie.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any knowledge of the political attitudes or activities of your father, George Lyman Paine?

Mr. Paine. I have very little specific knowledge of what he does.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us what you do know about your father's political activities?

Mr. Paine. I have seen my father rather rarely. Since I have been in Texas, I have seen him more frequently. I think I have been out there three times now in the last 5 years.

Mr. Liebeler. When you say out there—you mean Los Angeles?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I have seen him twice. He was out to Texas. I have been to Los Angeles twice, and he came at least once to Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler. Please fix the time when you went to Los Angeles?

Mr. Paine. Last summer, 2 weeks in August or something. I was there for 3 days, the first, the middle of August.

I would guess it was about 2 years before that that I had been there. I could be off by a year both ways. I can't even remember whether he came—I think he probably interspersed his visit between mine.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall that he visited Irving on two different occasions, once in Christmas, 1962?

Mr. Paine. One was a Christmas party, that is right.

Mr. Liebeler. And once in the summer of 1961.

Mr. Paine. I don't remember '61. I do remember pictures now, we have pictures showing us outside so that was balmy weather.

Mr. Liebeler. So that in the period that you have been living in Texas you have gone to Los Angeles on two different occasions and visited your father there and he has been in Irving on two different occasions, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That seems, I think, to be right.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you go on and tell us what you know about your father's political activities?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Well, we would have to go back to a little to when I lived in New York as a school student in school, grammar school and high school. There I would see him very infrequently considering our close proximity and the fact that I found him stimulating and I liked him.

He took me to a few, one or possibly two, Communist meetings at my considerable insistence. He didn't urge this upon me. I wanted to go, to get the feeling of the—I asked him what he did or something and I wanted to know all this, my mother said he was on the radical left.

So, I went to a few of those meetings, and didn't—was unfamiliar with the issues and questions they were debating. I got the feeling, I came away with the impression, that these people, there were three Communist groups apparently in New York at the time, and they were most up in arms with each other, or there——

Mr. Dulles. Excuse me, how old were you at this time approximately?

Mr. Paine. This was somewhere from eighth grade to high school.

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Representative Ford. What year about, what time span would that be?

Mr. Paine. Well 1947, I think I got out of high school, so it is 1943 to 1947.

Then I didn't—I got the flavor of those meetings. I found sort of an intense people, people of high intensity. I didn't feel very much at home there, and I guess I didn't go to any more.

Mr. Dulles. Did they try to recruit you at all or to get you to be a member or attend or join meetings?

Mr. Paine. No; they were glad to meet Lyman's son. That is he would introduce me to friends or people he knew there, and I liked—I had some favorable attitudes to the zeal of the group or the zeal of the assembled people.

They were fully committed to what they believed in. I had my own dreams of how I would like to see society at the time and it wasn't along the same line.

So, I felt happy to have them there and I would go my course and just—I didn't feel opposed to them; neither did I feel drawn to them, although I tried to read some of Das Kapital at that time and Communist manifesto.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever join any of these organizations?

Mr. Paine. Well, I didn't know of any organization as such.

I went to this meeting in downtown New York. I didn't know—so therefore I knew three groups. Maybe it was the Socialist group and the Stalinist group and I think the group that Lyman was in, I don't know, maybe he was a Socialist.

Mr. Liebeler. Which was the second group, was it the Stalinist?

Mr. Paine. I mentioned the Stalinist, Dubinsky, David Dubinsky, was the only name I remember aside from Stalin, was a name I remember there, and I can't now remember whose side who was on.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any clear recollection of what particular group your father was associated with?

Mr. Paine. No; I never had—never knew what the name of any group he might be associated with.

Now, I suppose it was Trotsky. Trotskyite was a different distinct group at that time. They probably wouldn't be mentioning their own group. They would be mentioning their opponent's group.

Mr. Liebeler. Subsequent to your attendance at the meetings of these groups at the time you have spoken of did you ever attend any other meetings of similar groups either in New York or any other place?

Mr. Paine. I can't remember anything of a similar nature.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know of your father ever using any aliases?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't.

Mr. Liebeler. You are not familiar with the name Thomas L. Brown or Lyman Pierce?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Liebeler. When was the——

Mr. Paine. I was aware that my father didn't talk readily about his affairs. When we met we would talk at great length and we always do talk. There is an amazing similarity in our natures. I have almost thought there was one person trying to live in two bodies.

But we have always been completely absorbed in subjects that were closer to my—without going into what he was doing day to day or what he was—I was aware that I didn't know, and I didn't pry or probe as to what he might be doing there.

Mr. Liebeler. So far as you know, however, he was actively participating in the meetings and activities of this group?

Mr. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that your father and mother were divorced when you were about 4 years old?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. You were at that time living in New York City?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Subsequently you and your mother.

Mr. Paine. She got a divorce in Reno, Nev., she had a house in Virginia City.

The Chairman. In New York you were living with your father or mother?

Mr. Paine. They lived together in New York. Then there was a year, a part of a year, we moved to Philadelphia. They may have separated and he tried to come back or something like that, and then we went to Reno, Nev.

Mr. Liebeler. During the time you lived in Philadelphia, was your father living with the family?

Mr. Paine. I think he was there part time. I don't remember that for sure. We had two houses there. One I think I remember him slightly and the other one I don't.

Mr. Liebeler. Your father was not present during the time that you stayed in Nevada?

Mr. Paine. No; he was not.

Mr. Liebeler. You and your brother stayed in Nevada with your mother?

Mr. Paine. And a housekeeper also.

Mr. Liebeler. After you left Nevada where did you live?

Mr. Paine. We went over to California. Santa Barbara.

Mr. Liebeler. Who lived there at that time with you?

Mr. Paine. A friend of hers, Kathleen, now she was originally Kathleen Schroeder, a sister of my uncle, now Kathleen Forbes, and a distant cousin of my mother's, and I think my grandfather, grandparents, would come out occasionally.

Mr. Liebeler. Was your father present at that time?

Mr. Paine. No; he was not.

Mr. Liebeler. He wasn't there at any time during your stay in Santa Barbara?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember that. I am not certain of it.

Mr. Liebeler. How long did you live in Santa Barbara, Calif.?

Mr. Paine. Each year my grandfather paid our way back across the country to Naushon Island in Massachusetts. We lived there 3 years.

Mr. Liebeler. Where did you go after that?

Mr. Paine. Cambridge, Mass.

Mr. Liebeler. How long were you there?

Mr. Paine. From the third to the sixth grade.

Mr. Liebeler. With whom did you live?

Mr. Paine. With my mother on Fairweather Street.

The Chairman. Is this of particular importance to the investigation, it is very lengthy, and I don't know particularly what it bears upon. If it is in relation with his father, let's get at that and get it over with, but I don't see what this man's history from the time he was born—I don't see how it bears on it. It just takes altogether too much time for an extraneous purpose, it seems to me. Let's get on with the thing.

Mr. Liebeler. It bears on the point only on what connection he has with his father.

Mr. Paine. Let me go to that. I have seen him on a few times, once a year would be a frequent—we felt great affinity in our bent, not in the actual application of the way we would like to do things but in a concern for the value of people. I know very little about what he does, and he has not tried to proselytize me, and he has not volunteered information about what he did.

I think a certain change has come over him since. For many years or years in college or something I thought he was still interested in his revolutionary groups and that was a pity because that wasn't going to happen, and it was to be a dead end, a blind, he would come to the end of his life and his cause had fizzled out.

When I went out to California more recently, the last time we were talking about the civil rights movement and, shall we say, the revolution occurring in this country spearheaded by the Negroes' demand for dignity, that was a subject that completely absorbed the weekend and there were various Negroes who came around the country, who happened to pass through at that time.

You probably might be interested in regard to Cuba. I was surprised sometime in the conversation someone there had spoken favorably of the revolution in Cuba. This was a surprise to me, I didn't realize that this was part of the—was the present thrill, shall we say. I don't know whether that applied to Lyman also or whether—I think he went along with that. We didn't get around to arguing on that point. I only mention that in passing. That was about the full extent of it.

She mentioned Cuba in this favorable way, and it was a subject I didn't——

Mr. Dulles. Who was this she?

Mr. Paine. It was Grace somebody, I have forgotten.

Mr. Dulles. One of the people present in these conversations?

Mr. Paine. Yes. So that was my only knowledge that he was, or the people around him were, interested in Cuba, and that is the only thing I can see has any bearing in your interest here.

Mr. Liebeler. To what extent would you say that your father has influenced your own political views and attitudes?

Mr. Paine. I would have guessed it was almost negligible. I was aware that sometime in the beginning of college or something I used the language of the masses or I used jargon which I recognized, came to perceive was of quite leftist nature, and I think that at the time I used to get The Nation, that was in high school. I probably picked it up more from the magazines and things of that sort than from him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald?

Mr. Paine. On a phone call shortly after the assassination he called and thought it was outrageous to be pinning Lee Oswald who was a scapegoat, an ideal person to hang the blame on.

Mr. Liebeler. Your father called you?

Mr. Paine. Yes; he called me, yes. He didn't suppose it was true, I told him I thought it probably was true. And I told him to keep his shirt on.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember anything else about that conversation?

Mr. Paine. No. It was chiefly both he and Freddy, his wife, had to be calmed down. They thought it was a steamrollered job of injustice or something. And I didn't think their admonitions were—I think not to say anything, not to join the hubbub or jump on the things I said or I took it to be things I said would be distorted and blown up and added to the hullabaloo to lynch Lee.

Representative Ford. Did they infer or imply that the allegations or accusations against Oswald bore the semblance of a lynching? And I use lynching in the broad sense.

Mr. Paine. They did not use lynching at all. I added that. They thought he was——

Representative Ford. Being railroaded?

Mr. Paine. No; he said that no one, no member of the Friends of Cuba would want to assassinate the President. That was a crazy idea.

Representative Ford. You said that was a crazy idea?

Mr. Paine. No; he said that. Therefore, he concluded, and this was the same, similar to my feeling, that I first didn't think Oswald had done it because I didn't see how it fitted in, how it helped his favorite ideals.

And Lyman then said the same thing. Therefore, including himself, Lyman, that Lee couldn't have done it, and that this must be—Lee was the ideal person to hang it on.

Representative Ford. How soon was this phone call after the assassination?

Mr. Paine. I think it was—he did not know, I think, that we had Marina staying with us, but he was one of the first to connect, guess that it was us. He called and asked us, "Is this you?"

Representative Ford. "Is this you?" What? I don't quite understand the context here.

Mr. Paine. He heard it on the news and he heard Mrs. Paine, and Marina had been staying with a Mrs. Paine and he called to ask, "Are you the Paines?"

Mr. Liebeler. Had you discussed Lee Oswald with your father prior to this time?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't think I mentioned him.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether your father knew Lee Oswald?

Mr. Paine. No; I do not know. Or I gather since he had such a funny idea of him over the phone.

Mr. Liebeler. To the best of your judgment the only way your father heard of Lee Oswald, connected Lee Oswald to you, was through a news broadcast that he had heard connecting Oswald with somebody named Paine?

Mr. Paine. Or Marina had stayed with the Paines.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald?

Mr. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. And Oswald never asked you about your father in any way or did he indicate that he knew of your father?

Mr. Paine. No; he did not. I think Ruth came closer to revealing that my father had—you will have to ask her about that question. I did not mention my father to Lee.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you meet Lee Oswald?

Mr. Paine. I met him sometime in the spring of 1963.

Mr. Dulles. This is Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; Lee Oswald.

Mr. Paine. We were invited to a party, Ruth and I were invited to a party, given by Everett Glover. I had a cold and wasn't able to go. Ruth went at that time and subsequently went once or twice to see Marina. And she invited Marina and Lee to our house for dinner, and here the date that comes to mind is April 10.

Mr. Dulles. Where was Marina staying at this time?

Mr. Paine. Berry Street.

Mr. Dulles. Berry Street in Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler. Berry Street or would it be Neely Street?

Mr. Paine. Neely Street. So this was the first time I saw them. I had to go over, he didn't drive a car and I had to go over, and pick him up in my car and bring him back to the house. So I went over to Neely Street and saw them. Marina took about half an hour to pack all the things for Junie. Meanwhile I was talking to Lee at their house there.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us about that conversation?

Mr. Paine. I asked him what he was doing, his job, and he showed me a picture on the wall, which was a piece of newspaper, I think—that is beside the point. I asked him about Russia, what he liked about——

Mr. Dulles. Could we get that picture?

Mr. Paine. I think it was beside the point. It was a piece of newspaper showing a fashion ad, I think. I think his job was——

Mr. Dulles. Nothing to do with politics at all, to do with his job. I see.

Mr. Paine. I asked him what he thought. I wanted to know why he had gone to Russia and why he had then come back. He had told me he had become a Marxist in this country without ever having met a Communist, by reading books and then he got to Russia, and——

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you why he went to Russia?

Mr. Paine. He said he wanted to go to Russia. He had chosen to go to Russia.

Mr. Liebeler. He didn't elaborate on it?

Mr. Paine. No; I gathered he had had an interest in going to Russia for a number of years prior to the time he got there and decided that that was the paradise of the world and through fortunate relations between this country and Russia at the time, I would have to remember history to know whether that was a warm, a friendly time or not, but he indicated both his going and his coming were fortunate times in history or something that made it possible for him to do these.

Mr. Dulles. Fortunate times?

Mr. Paine. Fortunate times, this was sort of an accident in history. This is what I gathered from his conversation.

Representative Ford. Fortunate that he could leave at the time and fortunate that he could come back.

Mr. Paine. Fortunate that he could be accepted to emigrate to Russia. He told me that he had—so he went to Russia and he tried to surrender his passport to the Russians but the State Department would not give it to him, or the consul in Moscow, which was—which proved to be fortunate because then a few years later when he wanted to return it would not have been possible, except if they still had his passport. He had not legally surrendered it.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate that was a fortunate circumstance?

Mr. Paine. I think he smiled, he indicated to me he genuinely had wanted to become a Russian citizen and to surrender it. He wanted to renounce his American citizenship. He tried to, and the Russians, he told me, had accepted his bona fide intentions and tried to get the passport away from the Americans.

Representative Ford. Was the failure to get his passport a determining factor in their not accepting his desires?

Mr. Paine. No. He told me that they did accept his desires despite his inability to get the passport and give it to them.

Representative Ford. Despite his inability?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. "They" being the Russians?

Mr. Paine. Yes; they being the Russians and they issued to him, he told me, the standard kind of temporary citizenship paper which is given to all emigres to Russia, and there are some——

Mr. Dulles. Was it citizenship paper he said or something else, citizenship paper?

Mr. Paine. Now, I suppose there was a regular paper and everybody would know of it.

Mr. Dulles. Domicile paper or something allowing domicile.

Mr. Paine. I had thought, my impression was, that it was kind of probationary citizenship. It is a kind of paper issued for a year to somebody who is seeking citizenship. That was my impression at the time.

Mr. Dulles. Could it have been a probationary residence permit or something of that sort. He said citizenship, did he?

Mr. Paine. That was my impression. That it was the commencement of a citizenship paper.

Mr. Dulles. Did he tell you about any difficulties he had in getting permission to stay on in Russia?

Mr. Paine. Well, this was a question. I asked him how was it they so readily accepted—you know other Americans have a hard time staying more than 30 days there, "How was it that you were so readily accepted into the bosom of Soviet Society?" And to that he answered, "well, it was just a fortunate mood between the countries or something to that effect," is something that I gathered.

I didn't remember the history and I thought it would be—he smiled a little bit. I can't remember whether he smiled a little bit when I then asked him how did he manage to get out, at one time, but at one time I do remember he smiled as though there were a story there, and I didn't—I supposed the story would be too intricate, not interesting enough to try to get him to relate it.

Mr. Liebeler. You did not ask him to relate the story?

Mr. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever learn the circumstances under which he left Russia, from him?

Mr. Paine. As he told me at that same half hour before we came back to our house on Fifth Street,——

Mr. Dulles. Was this the first time you had seen him?

Mr. Paine. All this happened in the first half hour.

Mr. Dulles. The first time you had ever seen him?

Mr. Paine. The first time I had seen him or at least that first night.

He told me he had decided, that he had wanted, to come back to this country and it was through the fortunate circumstance of the Embassy still having his passport which was a legal loophole that made it legally possible, and I asked him—at sometime I thought this was rather nice that the State Department, I think this was a little later in the same evening, the State Department had forewarned him, had granted him money also, to come back.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that?

Mr. Paine. He told me that and I was rather proud of the State Department for its generous behavior toward such a wayward citizen. He actually had spoken—I had mentioned this because he had spoken abusively of the American Government.

Mr. Liebeler. At this time, during the first meeting?

Mr. Paine. Not just the American Government—yes; at this same meeting. He had spoken with abuse of, sort of resentment that they didn't let him have his passport and I thought, well now, that was just kind of a nice trick, by having a consular official there that he knew, this man wanted to change his mind, this little legal dodge of not wanting to give him his passport which I think is illegal if the man wants it, it would be the thing to permit him to come back.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you point that out to Lee Oswald?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Liebeler. What did he say?

Mr. Paine. I don't think he responded to it.

Mr. Dulles. He talked about surrendering the passport rather than surrendering citizenship, did he?

Mr. Paine. The two were synonymous, I thought, that if you surrendered your passport and with the intention of adopting another one that was renouncing American citizenship.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

Mr. Paine. Which he wanted, he told me he wanted to renounce his American citizenship. He said that quite flatly.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember anything else about this conversation concerning his trip back and his attitude toward the State Department and the United States that he discussed during this first meeting?

Mr. Paine. I don't believe so. I think I have got it a little confused with Marguerite Oswald what she said at the assassination, at the time of the night of the 22d. She was resentful of the State Department, thinking it had been remiss in taking so long in getting him back. I don't remember whether he had voiced the same—I am confused, I don't know whether it was he or she who had voiced this resentment. I thought to the contrary it was very generous.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether or not Oswald himself voiced resentment against the Government of the United States in this connection?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I do remember that. That was the thing that prompted me to say that it was actually rather nice of them to have been illegal just for this——

Mr. Dulles. I didn't catch the last. Nice of them to have been what?

Mr. Paine. I thought it probably was illegal of the embassy official not to hand over his passport when he demanded it in order to surrender it to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Liebeler. But you don't remember Oswald responding to that when you made that answer to him?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember his response.

The Chairman. You also said you thought it was rather nice of the State Department to do that in order to make it possible for him to return if he wanted to?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I said both of these things. They had given him money. They had held, a peccadillo to hold, the passport out of the knowledge that he might, such people might, want to return, change their mind, and then to provide him money moreover to come back, this all seemed to me rather nice even though it had taken 2 more months than when he originally wanted to come back.

I had said, this in response to his, some kind of expression on his part of criticism of the State Department or the foreign embassy or whatever it is.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember why he was critical? Was he critical because they had not given him his passport when he went to Russia or was he critical because in his opinion they had taken so long to arrange his return?

Mr. Paine. I think he was critical when he first mentioned it, he seemed to have the critical attitude—some of this critical attitude may have been facial expressions or way of speaking, which was somewhat common with him. Therefore, I can't remember for sure whether it was in the words or in his attitude. He was critical, though, certainly of the first, of the State Department not relinquishing his passport.

Mr. Dulles. Was he critical at this latter time?

Mr. Paine. He was critical of that as he was relating to his desire to go to the Soviet Union. He was relating the story to me, and then he had spoken of the State Department as though they were a bunch of bastards, wouldn't—or illegal or something. Anyway, he was unfavorable.

Mr. Dulles. But did you indicate he was rather glad that they had later taken this position so that he could get his passport back or did I misunderstand you on that?

Mr. Paine. Well, I pointed out to him that or said "it was kind of fortunate that they had held your passport," and I think he nodded his assent to that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you why he decided to return to the United States from Russia?

Mr. Paine. Most of this conversation, I think, was when we had first met and I wasn't sure whether he was speaking derogatively of the Soviet Union in order to win my good graces or thinking he could win my friendship that way.

However, he spoke more with disfavor of the Soviet Union during this first meeting than was quite comprehensible to someone who had gone there.

Mr. Liebeler. What did he say?

Mr. Paine. But chiefly what he said was that he didn't have choice of where he could live, you were assigned, he spoke with a certain amount of derision, scorn of the fact that you were assigned jobs, and he thought the food was boring, I think, to use his word. He had mentioned that he liked to—he had gone hunting with some friends, that was the only thing he mentioned about the Soviet Union in which I sensed that he had been with people except for also mentioning that he had been the center of interest as an American who couldn't drive a car.

But apparently he had relished going hunting. He had also said with resentment, a Soviet citizen could not own a rifle. They could own shotguns but not a rifle, and that you could shoot a rifle only by joining a rifle club which he said was a paramilitary organization.

Again, this was with a degree of scorn in his voice or his attitude. I had assumed that he at least tried the paramilitary organization, the rifle club, so he could speak with such scorn, with knowledge of what he was speaking about.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that he had joined an organization in which he was permitted to shoot a rifle?

Mr. Paine. No; he did not. I don't know that for a fact. I had assumed from his conversation that he had tried it but I gather that he did not like this organization.

Mr. Dulles. Did he say anything about having to leave the rifle at the club, that you couldn't take the rifle away from the club, or anything of that kind?

Mr. Paine. I assume that was true. He didn't mention it, he mentioned that a Soviet citizen could not possess a rifle.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he speak of any training that he might have received in connection with either a rifle or a shotgun while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Paine. No; he didn't.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate to you the degree of facility with which he used either of these weapons while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Liebeler. He—is there anything else he told you about this hunting club or this rifle or shotgun that you can remember now?

Mr. Paine. No; I am not particularly interested in rifles and hunting so that I didn't—it was an ideal opportunity—I think he did love hunting so I think it would have been an ideal way to reach him in a somewhat human way.

Mr. Dulles. You got no idea of how much time he was at the rifle club or what? Did it seem to be a frequent occupation?

Mr. Paine. No; I can't say I had any fruitful idea of whether he was a member of it. I assumed he was a member of it. He didn't say he was a member of it. I assumed he spoke with authority saying it was a paramilitary organization and somehow conveying the idea that he didn't like that aspect of it and, therefore, I assumed he didn't like it. He spoke only with pleasure of his hunting trip. He mentioned a hunting trip, I don't think he mentioned them in plural, which he had taken with some friends.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any more details about that hunting trip?

Mr. Paine. We talked, this was within the first half hour, the talk was very brief.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever mention to you this hunting trip or anything relating to a rifle or shotgun in the Soviet Union at any later time?

Mr. Paine. No; I didn't know what time he was referring to.

Mr. Liebeler. I mean at any other time after the first meeting with you did he refer again to his activities in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Paine. I see.

Mr. Liebeler. In connection with this rifle?

Mr. Paine. No; that subject never came up again.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you at this first meeting about his work in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Paine. I had gathered he worked somewhere in a television factory.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I can't remember whether it was television, it was electronics of some sort.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you the nature of his work?

Mr. Paine. He did not tell me. I thought to myself that if he was in a very honorable position there he would have mentioned it. So, I thought he was probably just a mechanic of some sort, wiring it together.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you how much he was paid?

Mr. Paine. I can't remember, I think he did but I don't remember what he said.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate that he received any income other than from his work?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't believe he told me anything about that.

Mr. Liebeler. We have been referring primarily here in our questioning to the first meeting that you had with him, but do you remember any subsequent conversation with Oswald about his work, his pay, and his income in the Soviet Union after this first meeting?

Mr. Paine. I think he thought it was too low. He thought the standard of living, he recognized the standard of living was low, and they were restricted therefore in their—just too confined, told where to live. The food was boring and there was nothing to do. I didn't get the idea it was lack of money. He did not say anything about lack of money.

Mr. Dulles. I wonder if we could get for our guidance the approximate number of times he saw Lee Oswald?

Mr. Paine. It was about four times that we had lengthy conversations.

Mr. Dulles. Four times, that is four times prior to the date of the assassination.

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. Or that includes all the times?

Mr. Paine. I didn't see him again after the assassination.

Mr. Dulles. You didn't see him after the assassination. Four times prior to the assassination including this one time you have already described?

Mr. Paine. Yes. This is the first meeting before he went to New Orleans and then about three weekends after he came back——

Mr. Dulles. I think that will be taken up. I just wanted to get in my mind approximately how many times in all you saw him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald at any time indicate to you that he was treated by the Russian authorities in any way different from ordinary Russian citizens who occupied a similar status in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Paine. No; I wasn't aware of that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you about any special training that he had?

Mr. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he mention his living accommodations?

Mr. Paine. Well, with some kind of resentment he did, that it was assigned, and I think that is about all he said.

Mr. Dulles. May I ask whether these questions relate to all the four times or just to the first time, are we still on the first?

Mr. Liebeler. Basically on the first time, sir, unless we specify to the contrary.

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us what else you and Oswald discussed during this first meeting that you had?

Mr. Paine. Unfortunately that first meeting was the clearest one. I was asking him questions, taking his answers. I had hoped when I met this man to have insights into Russia, both meeting him and meeting his wife, and interesting talks about the differences between the Russian system and the American, the western system.

Then I found that he was—some questions, later in the evening, the conversation was translated into Russian also so that Marina could follow along.

Mr. Dulles. You mean after the first half hour when you were preparing——

Mr. Paine. That is right, when we came back after dinner to our house.

Mr. Dulles. Your house. So this went on?

Mr. Paine. What you have heard now occurred mostly in the first half hour when I was speaking directly to him when I met him.

Mr. Liebeler. Then you returned to Irving to your house and had dinner and had the additional conversation?

Mr. Paine. Yes. Now, in all the subsequent conversations, you are going to get less information in what he said.

Mr. Dulles. In the first part of this meeting you were alone and in the second part of the meeting there were other people there?

Mr. Paine. My wife and Marina was able to join us. At this time Marina was packing things for Junie and I noticed that he was speaking very harshly to her. He was telling her what bag or satchel to take. I gathered from it, of course, it was in Russian, and I thought to myself, here is a little fellow who certainly insists on wearing the pants.

Mr. Dulles. You don't understand Russian yourself?

Mr. Paine. No. So he spoke loudly to her, and didn't rise from his seat. But spoke surprisingly harshly especially in front of a guest.

Mr. Dulles. How did she take this?

Mr. Paine. With a bit of umbrage. She didn't like it. It rankled her.

Representative Ford. In other words, this half hour conversation took place in their apartment?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. While she was packing the bags to go to your home?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Dulles. Was she packing the bags for some days or was this——

Mr. Paine. No; just bottles, diapers, clothing, something.

Mr. Dulles. For a weekend?

Mr. Paine. Just for the evening.

Mr. Dulles. Just for an evening?

Mr. Paine. I don't know why it took so long but it did. I guess they weren't quite ready when I arrived.

Mr. Liebeler. What else did you and Oswald speak about during this evening, do you remember?

Mr. Paine. After supper the conversation was translated into Russian, and I wanted to gather Marina's or get Marina's corroboration of certain things he said about Russia and there we found when she had differing opinions from him that he would not let her, he would slap her down verbally, and not let her express them or say—Ruth told me later, he was calling her a fool, "You don't know anything."

When I encountered this, I actually trusted Marina to know—the questions I was asking, it seemed to me could be better answered by Marina, so I wasn't paying very close attention to what he had said about that.

Mr. Dulles. Could you indicate on what points they seemed to differ or what points that he raised that irritated her or vice versa in their discussion about Russia? You said he slapped her down. I was wondering on what kind of points he slapped her down.

Mr. Paine. I have unfortunately tried to remember those points myself wishing, wondering whether hypnosis would bring it out of me as a tape recorder, or something. I was interested to know whether the Russians were happy with their system, whether they felt the presence of the Secret Police, these are questions, I don't remember asking them, these are questions that I would have been interested in.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any response either from Marina or from Oswald on these points?

Mr. Paine. And I don't remember anything specific here. I just remember that I encountered too many points, where they apparently differed and, therefore, I had in mind I will just wait until she can learn English and we will get it from the horse's mouth.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you speak with Oswald during this first meeting of the circumstances under which he met Marina and married her in Russia?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember when I learned that. I think I learned it from Ruth, who had spoken to Marina on this subject.

Mr. Liebeler. What did you learn?

Mr. Paine. It may have been—I don't remember when it occurred, it may have been after the assassination, I may have read it in the paper or something.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't remember any specific conversations with Oswald on that subject?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Lee Oswald ever speak to you about his experience in the United States Marine Corps?

Mr. Paine. He mentioned that his brother went in the Marine Corps and apparently enjoyed it and he had then, I think he said he had left school early to join it and I gathered, I thought to myself, he is expecting to find the joy his brother found there and he did not find it. He did not like the Marine Corps.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you anything—pardon me.

Mr. Paine. He did not mention that I can recall his exit from the Marine Corps.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever mention the name of Governor Connally in connection with his experiences in the Marines?

Mr. Paine. Not that I remember.

Mr. Dulles. Did he ever mention the President in this or any other conversations?

Mr. Paine. He mentioned the President only once that I can remember specifically; at the ACLU meeting I think.

Mr. Dulles. At the which?

Mr. Paine. At the ACLU meeting I took him to. He had mentioned, he thought President Kennedy was doing quite a good job in civil rights, which was high praise coming from Lee.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any discussion during this first meeting other than the discussion you have already mentioned concerning Oswald's political beliefs?

Mr. Paine. There, of course, I was interested in that subject, found we differed, and then in order to not wrestle with concepts or arguments that were unmanageably large, I tried to bring it down to more specific instances of how he would like to see the world be.

Mr. Liebeler. How did you become aware of the fact that you differed, do you remember?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember him making any bones about it the very first meeting. He told me he had become a Marxist, in his own apartment there, that he had become a Marxist by reading books and never having met a Communist in this country.

And he also then told me with a certain sadness or regret that he couldn't speak about political and economic subjects with his people, and fellows at work.

(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Liebeler. You were going to mention specific areas of political discussion that you had with him.

Mr. Paine. One other thing happened in this first half hour, the most fruitful half hour I had ever had with him. He had mentioned his employer. I probably asked him why did he leave this country to go to the Soviet Union, and his supreme theme in this regard is the exploitation of man by man, by which he means one man making a profit out of another man's labor, which is the normal employment situation in this country and to which he found—took, felt great resentment.

He was aware that his employer made—he made more money for his employer than he was paid and specifically he mentioned how his employer of the engraving company goods and chattels that he had, that Oswald didn't have, and with some specific resentment toward this employer, and I thought privately to myself that this resentment must show through if he ever meets his employer, it must sort of show through and that his employer wouldn't find that man very attractive. So this was his guiding theme.

The reason it appears that this country, the system in this country had to go, had to be changed, was because of this supreme immoral way of managing affairs here, the exploitation of man by man which occurs in this country.

We discussed about it occurring in the Soviet Union, the taxation of a man's labor, it occurs there also, and it appeared that only, he seemed to agree or sometimes I had to feed him, this conversation now is a later one, when we were talking about the specifics of exploitation of man by man, he agreed that the only difference was that in the Soviet Union it is a choice which is impersonal.

The person who decides the man's wages and labor does not stand to gain by it whereas in this country the man who decides stands to gain by it.

Mr. Dulles. The man who decides what, to employ the other man?

Mr. Paine. No; what wage to pay him.

Mr. Dulles. What wage to pay him?

Mr. Paine. Or what his return shall be. So that was the only—the most important, by far economic and political almost, let's call it economic doctrine he held.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he translate that economic doctrine to specific policies that he thought should be adopted or specific changes that should be made in the structure of this country?

Mr. Paine. I had never, to my satisfaction, uncovered an area of progressive change that he would advocate. I asked him how did he think this change was going to come about, and he never answered that.

And it seemed to me he was critical of almost everything that occurs in this country. So that he did not—I did not come to—did not know of anything in which he could see a progressive evolutionary change or policies that could be pushed in order to promote his ideals.

Representative Ford. Did he react academically, intellectually, violently or in what way did he express these views?

Mr. Paine. Well, he was quite dogmatic. First he wanted to put me in a category. In one of the later talks—when we first met he talked very freely and then I think as we made, in later conversations, I had to do more and more of it—make more and more effort to draw something out of him.

In his later conversations, Ruth found him so bothersome.

Mr. Dulles. What was that word?

Mr. Paine. Bothersome, that she couldn't join the conversations. He would get too angry or too——

Representative Ford. He resented the probing or the questioning?

Mr. Paine. No; he did not really resent the probing. For instance, take this issue of the exploitation of man by man. When we had boiled it down to this rather fine difference or technical difference that one was done by an impersonal body and one was done personal.

Mr. Dulles. The Soviet being the first and the American being the second?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. That being then the crux of the matter and the reason this is the matter to be changed, if we were to follow the logic of the discussion, many arguments seemed to approach at that kind of a point where it is just logic or reason just didn't seem to work or hold water in this case, and we were left then with the starkness of his statement that this was an unforgivable moral sin, and he called it a moral sin or I questioned him to that effect, and so he thought it was a moral sin and he thought he was moral by adhering to that doctrine.

Representative Ford. Did he appear to enjoy these give and takes between you and himself or did he resent them as you proceeded in your discussions?

Mr. Paine. I don't think he resented them. I noticed at times he got quite hot under the collar and I noticed that he was holding his, staying on a steady keel even better than I was, as though he had had considerable practice in sticking to, controlling himself, holding his position and not getting ruffled.

Representative Ford. But in this process over a period of time during these four discussions he never deviated from his basic thesis?

Mr. Paine. Yes. Of course, as I said to the others, I don't believe whether you were here, we only had about four talks altogether, and I later came to realize that if he were to have abandoned any one of these or have abandoned that one in particular, that would have undermined his whole philosophy, would humanly itself quite unreasonable to expect a fundamental exchange within an evening, just because of a logical compulsion or logical argument or something.

Mr. Dulles. Did you get the impression that he felt both systems, the American system and the Soviet system involved the exploitation of man by man except it was a different exploiter?

Mr. Paine. I gathered—I was irked because it seemed to me the difference that he accepted as a sufficient difference, the one in the Soviet Union was impersonal, that he was not, in other words—he admitted in the Soviet Union that the tax rate which was a general term then for the amount of money or reward that is not returned of what a man makes, was higher in the Soviet Union. He agreed that that could be true, and didn't seem to be dismayed at that. So I did not find criticism of the Soviet Union on that score.

And in fact he didn't—I didn't discover in what ways he would like to try to change the Soviet Union except he didn't like the restrictions on his freedom there. Neither did he see there was any connection between the restrictions on freedom there and the freedom we have here without control of how the relationship between men would be governed.

Mr. Dulles. Did he ever go into the question of the relative position of labor in the United States from the point of view of its freedom of bargaining and the control of labor in the Soviet Union? Did that ever come up?

Mr. Paine. No. I think, I can't remember whether it was a conversation I had directly with him or immediately after, I was following this idea that here we feel we have quite a different attitude about exploitation. Somebody—he felt exploited and he thought all the working class was exploited, and he also thought they were brainwashed, and he also thought that churches were all alike, all the religious sects were the same and they were all apparatus of the power structure to maintain itself in power.

When I pointed out that our church was financed by people like myself, when I contribute so many dollars to the church, he just shrugged his shoulders. It didn't—his views still stood and it also permitted him, I think, gave him the moral ground to dismiss my arguments because I was here just a product of my environment and I didn't know better and he had the word from the enlightenment, that he knew the truth and therefore I was just spouting the line that was fed to me by the power structure.

Mr. Liebeler. I think you mentioned before that he had wanted to put you in a category, categorize you. Did he indicate to you during that first conversation that he had concluded what category?

Mr. Paine. No; it was over several conversations, I suppose it was the last conversation we had, he couldn't put me in a category and he named about seven or eight categories.

Mr. Liebeler. What were they?

Mr. Paine. I wasn't a Bircher, I wasn't a liberal, a Communist, a Socialist, probably something to do with religion, something like that, atheist.

Mr. Dulles. He didn't say whether you were a Republican or Democrat?

Mr. Paine. I don't believe he was concerned about that.

(Laughter.)

Mr. Paine. No; I am sure he would see no distinction between the two parties.

Mr. Liebeler. So he concluded that he was unable to categorize you?

Mr. Paine. Yes. And I also felt as soon as he had realized that that he could then dismiss me as not something that functions in this world, not one of the forces or the opposing camps he has to contend with.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned that your wife became bothered or Oswald proved bothersome to your wife. Could you tell us in what way Oswald was bothersome to Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Paine. Well, I think one of the most outstanding was in this discussion of religions and I was trying to suggest that religions did embody many of the values of many people and so the conversation was trying to talk about those values quite apart from—I think the Russian, I think Marina's view of religion is quite primitive—never mind Marina. Ruth was bothered by his logic or argument being of no avail. She would be content, you know if he had followed the laws of debate or something, you present evidence and he presents opposite evidence and you try to answer, let one answer the other. But when he couldn't answer he would just state his belief and there he followed the Communist line.

He talked something about feudalism, or the church being more powerful in feudalism than it was today and he tried to explain why that was.

I had then suggested that maybe science was instrumental as an alternative explanation to his explanation but instead of supporting further his view, which just didn't make sense to me, he just restated it. Well, this kind of thing.

Mr. Liebeler. Upset your wife?

Mr. Paine. Yes; you just couldn't enter the conversation deeper.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any other conversation, you and Oswald had during this first evening that you met?

The Chairman. From the first day, are you going back to?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes.

Mr. Paine. I think we probably spoke, I was trying still to find common ground with him, and I think we probably spoke critically of the far right. It even seems to me we may have mentioned Walker.

I had been bothered at the time that Walker had—I guess it doesn't do any good to enter into the matter because I don't remember his response.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you mention Walker's name during the first meeting?

Mr. Paine. My memory is very foggy. But I would take it as—this was an impression.

Mr. Liebeler. Give us your best recollection, and I want to ask you again this was in early April 1963, that you had this conversation, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. It was that first meeting when we had them over to dinner and Ruth can give you the date of that.

Mr. Liebeler. For the benefit of the Commission the record indicates it was about April 2, 1963, that that occurred. Tell us to the best of your recollection what the conversation about General Walker was at that time?

Mr. Paine. I think he had mentioned, a friend of ours had a German wife and she just achieved her citizenship papers, and this had been done at the ceremony and General Walker had been invited to lead the singing, conducted by June Davis who is somewhat old and slipped into error of calling him Judge Walker every once in a while, and it somewhat offended this friend of ours who was aware of why she liked this country, freedoms, and liberties and values that are expressed here. And she was rather sorry that Walker should take it upon himself to define, to these stupid foreigners or these ignorant foreigners, what this country stands for. So I think I mentioned this episode to him.

Representative Ford. Him being Oswald?

Mr. Paine. Oswald, and I think he smiled and nodded his assent. I don't think he said any—I don't think he made any important remarks about Walker.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember anything that he said about Walker at all?

Mr. Paine. I think that is the only time, probably the only time we mentioned Walker.

Mr. Dulles. To refresh my recollection, there was about 2 days or——

Mr. Liebeler. 8 days before.

Mr. Rankin. It was on the 10th.

Senator Cooper. Did he indicate in any way that he knew about General Walker at that time?

Mr. Paine. We seemed to agree at least superficially that in thinking the far right was unfortunate in its thoughts.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he say anything or do anything that would lead you to believe that he planned an attack on General Walker?

Mr. Paine. Absolutely not.

Senator Cooper. Did he indicate in any way that he knew about General Walker's activities and beliefs and position on public affairs?

Mr. Paine. When I went to the ACLU meeting he then got up, stood up and reported what had happened at the meeting of the far right which had occurred at convention hall the day before, U.N. Day, they called it U.S. Day, and I think Walker had spoken then.

From this I gathered that he was doing more or less the same thing—I thought he was, I didn't inquire how he spent his free time but I supposed he was going around to right wing groups being familiarizing himself for whatever his purposes were as I was.

Senator Cooper. Is that prior to the conversation you have talked about?

Mr. Paine. No; this is after this conversation.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mr. Paine. This is after this conversation and I only had this, this was the only concrete evidence I had of how he spent, might have spent some of his time. It happened in the ACLU meeting in late October. I suppose he was familiar with the right-wing groups and activities, and movements. And certainly familiar with Walker; yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Confining the Senator's question to the meeting in April, he didn't indicate in any way that he was familiar with Walker's attitude or activities?

Mr. Paine. He was familiar with Walker. He knew who Walker was, there was no doubt about that. We were talking about Walker.

Representative Ford. To find some common ground.

Mr. Dulles. He didn't say he knew where Walker lived or anything of that kind. That didn't come up?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate any understanding to you at that April meeting of Walker's attitude?

Mr. Paine. I don't think he singled out Walker as—I had the impression that he was quite familiar with Walker and probably familiar with the names of various right-wing groups, shall we say, the Christian Science, not the Christian Science, I have forgotten the names of various organizations.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you relate to Oswald this story about Walker speaking at the meeting or the ceremony at which the immigrants were given their citizenship?

Mr. Paine. I believe I did; yes. I believe that is what I said about Walker at the time.

Mr. Liebeler. What was his response to that?

Mr. Paine. And I think he didn't say much. I think he smiled and nodded his head and did that kind of thing. He may have said just a few words.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you take it that Oswald agreed with the views that you expressed?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, after this first meeting——

Senator Cooper. May I interrupt you again, I don't want to interrupt your train too much but I think you had said that during this conversation that you did have some discussion about right-wing groups.

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. And their position and activities, and so forth. In that discussion were individuals named or members assumed to be members of that group?

(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. Paine. It is possible we would have mentioned Welch. I don't think I would have mentioned Welch, I didn't know anything specifically about the John Birch Society at the time.

Senator Cooper. Was Walker, he was talking about Walker?

Mr. Paine. He was the only one whose name was mentioned.

Senator Cooper. Are you sure whether or not Oswald made any comment at any time during this conversation about Walker?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember, as I say, I remember it very vaguely but I remember telling that instance of his conducting that ceremony. But—and Walker was known, I knew that Walker was known to Lee. And at least it achieved a certain feeling of similarity there, even though the similarity was only superficial in our views and feelings about it. I don't think he went on to describe any—it was mostly a ploy on my part to curry him or make him feel more at ease.

Mr. Liebeler. It was clear to you at that time that both you and Mr. Oswald had an adverse view of General Walker and did not think favorably of him, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. Had you heard of Lee Oswald before you had occasion to go and pick him up that time and bring him to your house for dinner?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I heard about him as soon as Ruth had been invited to this party back in February, whenever it was.

Mr. Liebeler. What was the basis of your wife's interest in the Oswalds and of your interest in the Oswalds?

Mr. Paine. Everett Glover invited us knowing that Ruth was studying Russian and that—asked us if we would be interested in meeting this—they were presented to us as an American who had defected to Russia and decided he didn't like it and came back and brought a Russian wife with him. Would we like to meet these people? Yes, that sounded interesting.

Mr. Dulles. Was this the Fort Worth group?

Mr. Paine. No; this is in Dallas.

Mr. Dulles. Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler. After this first meeting with Lee Oswald when was the next time that you saw him?

Mr. Paine. That would be after he returned, when Marina was living with us, when he returned, we thought he returned from looking for work from Houston but apparently it had been his trip to Mexico.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us the circumstances of how you met him and what happened at that time?

Mr. Dulles. Could we have the date of this?

Mr. Liebeler. This would have been what, early October or late September of 1963?

Mr. Paine. I think Marina was there about a week, at least a week before he came, if she came the 24th of September, which comes to my mind, it would be in the early part of October. I would normally appear at the house on Fridays, sometimes occasionally on Sundays, I would come on Friday evening, and——

Mr. Liebeler. You were separated from your wife at this time?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. And you had your own apartment at Arlington, Tex.?

Mr. Paine. Grand Prairie.

Mr. Liebeler. Grand Prairie.

Mr. Paine. I don't particularly remember, the occasions don't stand out one from another. The first two meetings, I think were before he found work, and at first I talked a little bit about the problem of finding work with him.

Mr. Dulles. These were the first two meetings after the preliminary meeting?

Mr. Paine. Yes. While Marina was staying with us.

Mr. Liebeler. Go through your testimony, Mr. Paine and tell us as best you can recall how many times you saw Oswald after his return from New Orleans, up until the time of his assassination?

Mr. Paine. I think I saw him every weekend on Friday; I think he was there except for the weekend, before the assassination, exceptional.

I would arrive on Tuesday or Wednesdays and, of course, he was not there and there was Ruth and Marina. I would simply come in on Sunday when he was generally there.

Also, I quite specifically remember on the long holiday he had some period there, I don't remember, what celebration it is, when Bell did not have that day off and he did, so he was there that morning, a Monday morning on that date of that holiday, perhaps you can feed me the date.

Mr. Liebeler. Would that be November 8th, 9th and 10th, 1963?

Mr. Paine. I think that is right.

Mr. Liebeler. Was that the last time you saw him?

Mr. Paine. That would be correct; yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, tell us the circumstances about how Oswald arrived in Irving upon his return from New Orleans as best you can recall it, what happened, what was said.

Mr. Paine. I must not have been there when the phone call arrived but I think Ruth reported it to me so that Ruth said that Marina was very pleased, very happy to receive this call, a surprise or something. I think I had at one or two times seen her answer a call from him, and I observed she was glad to have this call from him but I wasn't there when he first called, I don't believe.

Mr. Dulles. Was that the call from New Orleans to Irving?

Mr. Paine. No; that is the call from somewhere in Dallas to Irving asking if he could come out. I don't know of a call from New Orleans to Irving.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he subsequently come out to the house in Irving that weekend?

Mr. Paine. Then he came out that weekend. I suppose he came out on a Friday and it was probably before I got over there, I arrived about six.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember if he was there when you arrived home that weekend?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember that. I think he was there; yes. I think he was there because otherwise I would have seen that meeting. I did not see them first embrace each other.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he say anything to you about where he had been?

Mr. Paine. No; I thought I knew where he had been. Ruth had told me he was looking for work in Houston.

Mr. Liebeler. Ruth had told you that before this date?

Mr. Paine. I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. There was no conversation among any one at that time about Oswald having been in Mexico.

Mr. Paine. No; it was a complete surprise to Ruth and myself. When we saw this letter where he mentioned having been to Mexico, Ruth took it as an example of his colossal lying.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us about this letter, what were the circumstances surrounding that?

Mr. Paine. He had written a letter using her typewriter and her desk to a party I don't know.

Mr. Dulles. That is Ruth's typewriter and desk?

Mr. Paine. Ruth's typewriter and he left the rough draft of the letter on her desk, not folded, just out there on her desk, in English. Ruth had given me the impression it was there for a couple of days. Actually it was there for a day and a half or so. I think he wrote it on Saturday and we then moved the furniture on Sunday night.

Mr. Dulles. This would be Saturday, November what?

Mr. Paine. This might be that holiday November. I don't remember for sure about that.

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Paine, you and I discussed this question yesterday and I asked you whether you recalled seeing Oswald again after you had discussed this letter with your wife. What did you tell me?

Mr. Paine. I thought probably not but we figured out the dates from my probable reaction that I read that letter and then had I encountered him again I would have had a different, I would have had questions or feelings or something in response to this letter and since I didn't encounter him with those feelings I must not have seen him again.

Mr. Liebeler. So that would place the date of your seeing this letter as approximately shortly after the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. I show you Commission Exhibit 103 and ask you if you ever saw the original of this letter and if you did to tell us the circumstances surrounding that event.

Mr. Paine. Yes; I saw this letter. I remembered most of the contents. I apparently didn't remember that he didn't use his real name, I was reading something else at the time and Ruth handed me this letter and it took a while—I didn't read it as thoroughly as I could have.

Mr. Dulles. Could you tell us just briefly the contents of this letter just for the record?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes, sir; apparently it is a draft of a letter that Oswald wrote in his own hand. The Commission does have a copy of the actual letter, and it was a letter to the Russian Embassy, I believe in Washington.

Mr. Dulles. The Russian Embassy in Washington?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes, sir; in which he tells them about his trip to Mexico and his political activity on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I believe it includes the words "notorious FBI," which is no longer interested in his political activity in Texas.

Mr. Dulles. Was this letter ever sent?

Mr. Liebeler. I believe it was.

Mr. Dulles. There was a letter sent like this? You said you had the original?

Mr. Rankin. It is in evidence.

Mr. Dulles. What was sent, a letter like this?

Mr. Rankin. A redraft.

Mr. Dulles. A redraft.

Mr. Paine. Typewritten copy.

Mr. Liebeler. This letter refers to the fact that Oswald had been in Mexico, does it not?

Mr. Paine. Yes; it tells of his visit to the Cuban Consul and the Soviet Embassy there.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife call that to your attention when she showed you this letter?

Mr. Paine. We took it, she took it, and I likewise took it as somewhat of a fabricated story, I didn't suppose he had been down to Mexico. I read "Dear Sirs" there, I read "Dear Lisa." I thought he was writing to a friend, and Ruth pointed out to me after I had given the letter back to her, Ruth was somewhat irked that I didn't take more interest in the thing. I think I might have—no, I don't know as I might have since I might have dismissed it as a lie but anyway Ruth was irked and didn't show it to me again and I asked her now what was in that letter that I didn't see and she didn't tell me.

Mr. Liebeler. This was all prior to the assassination?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. What did she say to you?

Mr. Paine. Ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently had—apparently I hadn't really taken it in. I said, "The heck with it. Yes; it is a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate such stories here."

Mr. Liebeler. What did she say?

Mr. Paine. No; she said—she approached me and said, "I never realized how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that, and "I want you to read this letter." So I put aside the thing I was reading in which I was more interested and read most of the letter, not the latter part about having used another name.

And then I thought it was too personal, "Dear Lisa," so I thought he was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits which were rather imaginary and I put it out of my mind. Then later Ruth asked me what did I think about it——

Mr. Liebeler. This was before the assassination that she asked you this?

Mr. Paine. I think so.

Mr. Liebeler. Was it later the same day?

Mr. Paine. No; I think it probably was another day but I don't remember.

Mr. Liebeler. What did she say?

Mr. Paine. Well, she was—I think I said, "Let me see that letter again," and she said, "No; if you didn't absorb it, never mind." So, heck, if she felt that way, I wasn't going to bother. My first impulse was to throw it aside and pay no attention to it. If she felt that way I continued to do it.

Mr. Liebeler. Who brought the letter up the second time, did Ruth bring it up?

Mr. Paine. Yes; Ruth brought it up.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether there was any event that caused her to bring it up or did she bring it up out of the clear blue sky or what?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember having slept with her but I have the impression she brought it up while I was in bed anyway. So it might have been, just be, I was staying late that night also, I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know that Oswald had given Marina a charm made out of a Mexican peso at the time that you read this letter?

Mr. Paine. No; I didn't.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you learn about that at any time prior to the assassination?

Mr. Paine. Not that I remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you note the fact that Oswald had a record of Mexican music in your home prior to the assassination?

Mr. Paine. I didn't know that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had given Marina this charm made from a Mexican peso?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Liebeler. Under what circumstances?

Mr. Paine. The FBI came out and they were wondering whether Oswald had used my shop to mount his sight so we went out to look at the shop and tools and we looked at the threading tap and what not, the threading tap looked as though it hadn't been used but the drill press seemed to have little chips of metal on it and then Ruth remembered that he had gone in there and used the drill press to have drilled out this coin which Marina put around her neck, and I think she then mentioned it was a peso. But it hadn't sunk into Ruth with significance of its being a peso, hadn't impressed itself upon her prior to the assassination.

Mr. Liebeler. So that neither you nor your wife believed that Oswald had been in Mexico prior to the assassination?

Mr. Paine. You will have to ask Ruth about that. That was my impression he hadn't been there.

Mr. Liebeler. Your wife hadn't said anything to you that indicated that she believed it?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, you mentioned before the fact that you had gone with Oswald to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you do that?

Mr. Paine. That was the day after Stevenson had been stoned.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event?

Mr. Paine. That was a Friday I had intended to go, I had also invited Frank Krystinik for his first visit, I had been telling him about the ACLU. So I invited Lee to come thinking it might be part—I was not really talking to him very much, but just being civil but I thought it might be helpful for him to see something in which I was interested, that I might find some way that he might find an interest, something constructive to do.

So, I took him in my car, he and I alone, and on the way, which takes about 35 minutes, described the ACLU to him, and he didn't know about it, and described its purpose. Then we went to the meeting which was a meeting, first we saw a movie called "Suspect," I think it was showing how a candidate lost, who had won handily in a previous election, lost after a smear campaign in Washington State, which it had been brought out that his wife had once been a Communist Party member.

I didn't think the movie showed very much, but the meeting, the discussion following the movie, there were two people who gave little talks about the movie and the principles involved afterward, this—do you want to break?

Mr. Liebeler. Who went with you in the car to the meeting, just you and Mr. Oswald or was Mr. Krystinik with you?

Mr. Paine. No; Krystinik came in his own car, so just Lee and myself.

Mr. Liebeler. Go ahead with your story.

Mr. Paine. I thought the meeting was conducted in a manner that illustrated its own beliefs. One of the things said was that the Birchers must not be considered anti-Semitic, anti-Semites because they are also Birchers.

Lee at this point got up, speaking loud and clear and coherently, saying that, reporting that, he had been to this meeting of the right-wing group the night before or two nights before and he refuted this statement, saying names and saying how that people on the platform speaking for the Birch Society had said anti-Semitic things and also anti-Catholic statements or spoke against the Pope or something.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't remember. He said something very similar to, "I disagree with what had just been said," and I do remember that it contained both some corroboration of his points of view. There had been some kind of an anti-Semitic statement and criticism of the Pope.

Mr. Liebeler. Oswald seemed to make a convincing argument and seemed to make sense?

Mr. Paine. That was good speaking. It was out of keeping with the mood of the meeting and nobody followed it up in a similar manner but I think it was accepted as—it made sense; yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Did anybody else say anything in response to Oswald's remarks?

Mr. Paine. I think not.

Mr. Liebeler. What happened then later on in the meeting?

Mr. Paine. Later on in the meeting, when the meeting broke up, people clustered into discussion groups, and Frank, I told Frank, who was a colleague at work, Frank Krystinik, about Lee and Marina, and so of course he immediately came to defend free enterprise and what not in opposition to this fellow I told him about, and I left the discussion at that point, thinking I knew the kind of discussion it would be.

It was a discussion between three people, a more elderly man whom I probably thought was a member of the ACLU, and Frank and Lee.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you hear any part of the discussion?

Mr. Paine. I didn't hear any part of the discussion.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you subsequently discuss it with either Oswald or Krystinik?

Mr. Paine. And in the car going home, Lee asked me if I knew this man he had been talking to, this older man he had been talking to, and I think he said that the man seemed to be friendly to Cuba or rather he said, "Do you think that man is a Communist?" And I said, "No." And then he said something, "I think he is." Then I asked him why and I think he said something in regard to Cuba or sympathy with Cuba, and then I thought to myself, well, that is rather feeble evidence for proving a Communist.

But he seemed to have the attitude of, felt he wanted to meet that man again and was pleased he had met him. I thought to myself if that is the way he has to meet his Communists, he has not yet found the Communist group in Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there a Communist group in Dallas, to your knowledge?

Mr. Paine. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald ever speak of a Communist group in Dallas?

Mr. Paine. No; he did not. I had the impression, this I remember clearly that he had not found the group with similar feelings to his. I then asked Frank in regard to, I can't remember when I asked Frank but I asked Frank about the same conversation and whether he thought that this third man was a Communist. And he thought no, he thought the other man was a better—Frank almost got into a fight with Lee, and the other man was more receptive or didn't argue with him, or drew him out better, Frank used the word, I think.

Mr. Liebeler. Drew Oswald out better?

Mr. Paine. Drew Oswald out better. But he didn't gather the impression that he was favoring Castro or Cuba.

Mr. Liebeler. What else did you and Oswald say on the way home after the meeting?

Mr. Paine. So I was describing to him the purpose of the ACLU, and he said specifically, I can remember this, after I had described it and said that I was a member, that he couldn't join an organization like that, it wasn't political and he said something or responded in some manner, which indicated surprise that I could be concerned about joining an organization simply to defend, whose purpose it is, shall we say, to defend, free speech, free speech, per se, your freedom as well as mine.

He was aware of enjoying his freedom to speak but he didn't seem to be aware of the more general principle of freedom to speak for everyone which has value in itself. And I think it took him by surprise that a person could be concerned about a value like that rather than political objective of some sort, and this was, struck me as a new idea and it struck me that he must never have met people who paid more than lip service, he wasn't familiar with the ways of expressing this value.

Mr. Dulles. Did you say anything to him about the activities of the Civil Liberties Union in connection with the defense of people accused of crimes under certain conditions?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I am sure I told him that it came to the defense of all people who didn't seem to be receiving adequate help when it seemed to be an issue involving the Bill of Rights. I was then—that was a pang of sorrow that occurred after the assassination when I realized that he had then subsequently, a fortnight later, joined the ACLU, and still didn't quite seem to perceive its purpose, and then I realized—I had also perceived earlier that he was still a young fellow and I had been expecting rather a lot of him, when I first approached meeting him; this man had been to Russia and had been back and I had been—met some others who had been around the world like that and they are powerful people.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald impress you that way?

Mr. Paine. And he did not impress me that way; no.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald respond to your, or did you request Oswald or did you suggest to him that he join the ACLU?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't think I was eager to have him join until he knew what was what about it.

Mr. Liebeler. During the time after the ACLU meeting did Oswald say anything about his discussion with Mr. Krystinik?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you subsequently discuss that with Mr. Krystinik?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Liebeler. What did you say and what did he say?

Mr. Paine. He told me how he had argued, that he had pointed out that he had employed a few people himself, he works at Bell but on the side, at night he had done a little extra business and had employed other people, and had to receive from them more than he paid them, that he received from their labor, for their product, more than he paid them but that he created work and jobs, and he was fully—and he was ready to defend his way of that activity and was presenting that against Lee's criticism and apparently encountered the same kind of nonsequitur response or no response from him or Lee's response didn't—Lee presented his opposing view against it without any issue.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned that Krystinik and Oswald had almost gotten into a fight, did Krystinik tell you that?

Mr. Paine. I think it was Frank who told me that.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us more about that?

Mr. Paine. I am sure Frank would not haul off and slug him, but just Frank said he got pretty mad at this. I think Frank was using that expression to me only, you know, saying how irked he was at Lee.

Mr. Liebeler. He didn't indicate that Oswald had threatened any physical violence toward him in connection with the argument, did he?

Mr. Paine. Oh, no; I think Lee knows how to keep his temper, knows how to control himself.

Senator Cooper. Might I ask a question at this time? Earlier you talked about your, I think your, first meeting with Oswald and your conversation with him?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. You said, you talked about, the fact that subsequently your wife was bothered by his attitude?

Mr. Paine. She was bothered by——

Senator Cooper. I am not going into that.

Now, you have talked about this conversation with Mr. Krystinik?

Mr. Paine. Krystinik.

Senator Cooper. In which they reached some point in which further discussion was not, if not impossible, was at least difficult between them?

From these experiences you had was there a situation, that after some arguments or discussion of economic or political issues, he would reach a point in which he relied upon certain fixed positions that he held about which he would not admit of any further discussion or argument?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. He would just present his dogmatic view and then one was at loss to find any way to get off that impasse.

Senator Cooper. When he was questioned about that view or when an attempt was made to argue that view with him, would he then become angry or disturbed in any way?

Mr. Paine. The time that I reported I was angry and I noticed he was holding his temper pretty well and I wasn't going to let him hold his temper better than mine.

Senator Cooper. Did you see indication——

Mr. Paine. I saw he was angry, his hands trembled a little bit.

Senator Cooper. All right.

Mr. Paine. But he was dogged, I think he was practiced or skilled or took pride in this was a kind of struggle or fight that he would do this, and he would do it for a long time.

Mr. Liebeler. Clench his fists and put them together?

Mr. Paine. No; it was expressing this as a mood.

Mr. Liebeler. He would hold himself back?

Mr. Paine. He would oppose himself to you steadily, and it seemed to me he liked to put himself in a position of belligerence or opposition, and he would just hold his ground or something, was accustomed to doing that and expected to stick it out. It reminded me a little bit of Lawrence of Arabia when Lawrence held the match that burned down to his finger and the fellows asked him what is the trick? He said no trick you just learn how to stand the pain.

Senator Cooper. I have to go and I would like to ask a few questions.

I ask these questions to get a certain background of his views which you have said he finally came to some fixed position which he would hold and would not move and there was no brooking of real argument on that position.

You said earlier in response to a question by counsel that he did not believe there was any possibility of any evolutionary progress in this country, at least upon this issue of economic change.

Mr. Paine. This he never said that specifically. But I would ask him what policy should we take or I was trying to find if he didn't have some avenue of following a policy in this country.

Senator Cooper. Did you direct questions to him which showed some evolution in our own economic ideas and theories which he either refused to accept——

Mr. Paine. Yes; I did. I mean I tried to show him how labor and management, first labor had a right, I was criticizing labor for the rigid position it is getting us into now——

Senator Cooper. He would not accept that idea of evolution?

Mr. Paine. I think he did not accept it; yes.

He didn't have patience with it.

Senator Cooper. Is that also a tenet of the Communist dogma, do you know?

Mr. Paine. I don't believe, I don't know whether you can say there is a single Communist dogma of that sort. I suppose there are some groups that feel that way and others don't.

Senator Cooper. Did he indicate any other way in which he thought that economic change might come about in the United States?

Mr. Paine. He did not indicate or reveal to me how he thought it would come about and I on several occasions felt by his, perceived from his attitude or felt impelled by his attitude to say that the values that I held dear were diminished in a situation of violence, to which he remained silent and I took it as disagreement. But I don't remember if he had said that.

Senator Cooper. He remained silent when you spoke about that?

Mr. Paine. When I said I was opposed to violence or said, why, when I said that he remained silent and I took it——

Senator Cooper. You took it that he disagreed in any way by your statement?

Mr. Paine. Well, just by the way he would sort of withdraw.

Senator Cooper. He did not agree with your position?

Mr. Paine. He did not agree; no.

Senator Cooper. That violence was unacceptable as a means of change?

Mr. Paine. That is right, and I don't think he perceived also, was a war of the kind of values that I am—tolerance, for instance seems to me disappears when strained situations——

Senator Cooper. Did you discuss at least the kind of economic changes that had occurred in Russia by means of violence?

Mr. Paine. No; I was trying to find out whether he thought it was going to come by revolution or not and he never did say, I never got an answer as to how he thought this change was going to come. He did not reveal constructive, or from my point of view, constructive effort to make.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever discuss the revolution in Russia where by means of violence the change had come about?

Mr. Paine. He did not. That would have been the kind of argument I would have accepted, a normal kind that you would have accepted it as evidence here is the normal way to produce it, but he never said that.

Senator Cooper. Did he ever say any way in which he was expecting Russia or any other country to indicate that he felt the use of violence had produced good?

Mr. Paine. No. As I say he did not—I would have accepted that argument as a debating argument but he didn't bring it up.

Senator Cooper. That is all.

Mr. Dulles. Did he say or did you get the impression that he felt that violence was the only way to improve things, let's say, in the United States?

Mr. Paine. I felt he was so disgusted with the whole system that he didn't see a way that was worthwhile fussing around trying to modify the situation.

Mr. Dulles. Other than violence or he didn't go that far?

Mr. Paine. He didn't mention advocating violence or didn't say anything in regard to violence but he did seem to me he didn't see dismissed as trivial, no difference between the parties so why join one party or another. They were all the same.

Churches—there is no avenue out that way. Education—there is nothing there. So that he never revealed to me any constructive way that wasn't violent.

Mr. Dulles. Did he think that communism was different from capitalism in this respect?

(Short recess.)

The Chairman. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

Mr. Dulles. What I was getting at with my question was as to whether he thought that probably violence was necessary with respect to both systems to achieve the millennium that he sought or did he think it was just necessary with regard to the American system.

Mr. Paine. He didn't reveal to me to my satisfaction what criticism he found of the Soviet Union. He had indicated he didn't like it. But I wasn't aware that he was proposing to change that system also in some way. Neither did he ever speak, he never spoke to me, in a way that I could see a paradise, see his paradise. He spoke only, he was opposed to exploitation of man by man. That was his motivating power.

(At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald indicate to you in any way that he had been present at the right-wing rally that was held in Dallas the night before Stevenson appeared in Dallas?

Mr. Paine. He indicated that at the ACLU meeting.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he say he had met anybody there?

Mr. Paine. Not that I recall, no.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he mention speaking to anyone at that meeting?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you whether or not he was at the Stevenson meeting itself?

Mr. Paine. I guess I didn't ask him that. I remember asking myself subsequently what was the answer to that question and I couldn't answer it then and I can't answer it now.

Mr. Liebeler. You have no recollection of his mentioning it at all?

Mr. Paine. No, I don't remember what—I think I assumed that he had but——

Mr. Liebeler. You assumed that he had been at the Stevenson affair?

Mr. Paine. I think I assumed that.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any basis for that assumption?

Mr. Paine. There had been some discussion in the ACLU, some other people had gotten up and had spoken of that awful last night, I guess, this was the previous night, that awful time and I think he seemed to nod his assent. That was my——

Mr. Liebeler. You inferred from that that he had possibly been present at the Stevenson meeting?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. There was no other basis for your assumption in that regard?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. On the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10, do you recall when you came to your house in Irving?

Mr. Paine. Well, I would come out regularly on Friday after cashing my check at the bank.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember coming on Friday evening on the 8th of November?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember any break in that habit.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall whether or not Oswald was present at your home on the Friday evening November 8, 1963?

Mr. Paine. No; I don't specifically remember that.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't remember one way or the other?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you at the house on Saturday? November 9th?

Mr. Paine. I was at the house probably on Saturday and certainly on Sunday. I think that weekend I remember stepping over him as he sat in front of the TV, stepping past, one of these things laying on the floor and thinking to myself for a person who has a business to do he certainly can waste the time. By business I mean some kind of activity and keeping track of right-wing causes and left-wing causes or something. I supposed that he spent his time as I would be inclined to spend more of my time if I had it, trying to sense the pulse of various groups in the Dallas area.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know what Oswald did on Saturday morning, November 9, 1963?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know that he was taken by your wife to apply for a driver's license and take a driver's license test on that morning?

Mr. Paine. She told me sometime subsequently that she had taken him for—wait. I remember the incident that he had arrived on a Saturday morning at the drivers' license bureau, stood in line for a long time but they cut off the line at 12 o'clock and he did not stay there long enough for him to get his driver's license student permit.

Mr. Liebeler. Was this at this time or would that have been another time. Let me help you.

Mr. Paine. I don't remember that.

Mr. Liebeler. Would it help to refresh your recollection if I suggested that November 9th was a local election day in Dallas, I believe?

Mr. Paine. I think that is an election that I have forgotten.

Mr. Liebeler. You have no knowledge of Oswald's activities on that day, no direct personal knowledge?

Mr. Paine. It doesn't, it didn't cue me in, so I don't——

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever see Oswald drive a car?

Mr. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with him driving an automobile or obtaining a driver's license?

Mr. Paine. I probably said it would be well to get a driver's license. It would be well—I probably said, "You probably need a car to get around here." In other words, effectively; no.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you that he planned to purchase an automobile?

Mr. Paine. I bought this second-hand car for $200.

Mr. Liebeler. What kind of a car is that?

Mr. Paine. That is a 1956 Oldsmobile.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you buy it?

Mr. Paine. I bought it while they were there, while Marina was staying with us, which was sometime in November. Either October or November, probably the early part of November. They went out to admire the car. $200, I suppose, didn't seem out of their reach then.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate to you that he was thinking——

Mr. Paine. Therefore, I think Ruth, they went out to admire the car and, of course, I was thinking that it, this might make it appear to them that the car was within reach, and driving was something to be sought.

Mr. Liebeler. In addition to the Oldsmobile that you mentioned, you personally own a Citroen automobile and your wife owns a station wagon, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. You never saw Oswald drive any of those cars at any time?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. I had keys to both of my cars so he could not have driven them without——

Mr. Liebeler. Without your knowledge?

Mr. Paine. Or else somehow getting another. He would have to—you can, I have driven my car when I have broken the key.

Mr. Liebeler. But you never saw him drive it?

Mr. Paine. I never saw him drive it.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife ever tell you that she had seen Oswald driving a car or she was trying to teach him how to drive a car?

Mr. Paine. Yes; she did.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she indicate what proficiency he had at operating an automobile?

Mr. Paine. She thought he was, she observed how much one has to learn in order to drive a car. He had a difficulty in some manner, perhaps it was in judging when to turn the wheel when parking. And I think she said he over controlled it, turned too far.

Mr. Liebeler. Looking back now on all your conversations with Oswald, after his return from New Orleans, did you have any discussions with him other than the ones you have already mentioned in your previous testimony?

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask a question before you answer this question. About the car, did you get any idea as to why he didn't want to drive a car or to have a car, did he think this would make him a capitalist or anything of that kind? Did anything come up in the conversations with regard to his not having a car or not driving a car?

Mr. Paine. No. I gathered that was slightly embarrassing not to be able to drive a car.

Mr. Dulles. All right. Thank you.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you recall any conversations that you had with Oswald that you think would be helpful for us to know other than the ones you have already mentioned?

Mr. Paine. I don't recall one now.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you any specific hostility toward President Kennedy?

Mr. Paine. I think at this ACLU meeting he mentioned this specifically that he thought Kennedy had done a good job in civil rights. That was it—generally my impression was that he liked—he didn't like anybody, but he disliked Kennedy least as you might go right from Kennedy.

Mr. Liebeler. To the best of your recollection, was that the only time he mentioned President Kennedy specifically?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever mention Governor Connally?

Mr. Paine. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate any hostility toward the United States other than the hostility that you have previously testified to after his return from the Soviet Union and his general dislikes of the American system?

Mr. Paine. That is right. Just his general dislike.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you a desire to return to the Soviet Union?

Mr. Paine. No; I think when I learned, I don't know when it was that he had planned to go back there that it was a surprise to me.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you learn that he planned to go back there?

Mr. Paine. That was probably subsequent; yes, that was certainly subsequent to November 22.

Mr. Dulles. Or to go to Cuba?

Mr. Paine. Or to go to Cuba, yes.

Mr. Liebeler. When that was spoken——

Mr. Paine. I remember now, first it was mentioned could he be connected with a Communist plot and there I thought of Russian Communists and that didn't seem to ring a bell.

Mr. Liebeler. When was that mentioned?

Mr. Paine. This was after the assassination, a day or two later. Then when the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was mentioned, that was the first I had heard of it except for his mentioning Cuba to this man at the ACLU meeting referring to it in the car to me.

Mr. Liebeler. He never told you that he had been active in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mr. Paine. That is correct, that was the only recollection I could remember his ever having mentioned Cuba.

Mr. Liebeler. Now yesterday, we asked you about an incident or spoke to you about an incident that happened in September of 1963 when you went into your garage to use some tools, your garage in Irving, Tex. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember whether the date was September. I remember that was the date they came back from New Orleans and I do remember that my wife asked me to unpack some of their heavy things from their car. I only recall unpacking duffelbags but any other package, that was the heaviest thing there and they were easy also.

Mr. Liebeler. You must have moved the duffelbags from the station wagon into the garage?

Mr. Paine. That is right. I unpacked whatever was remaining in the station wagon to the garage.

So sometime later, I do remember moving about this package which, let's say, was a rifle, anyway it was a package wrapped in a blanket. The garage was kind of crowded and I did have my tools in there and I had to move this package several times in order to make space to work, and the final time I put it on the floor underneath the saw where the handsaw would be casting dust on it and I was a little embarrassed to be putting his goods on the floor, but I didn't suppose, the first time I picked it up I thought it was camping equipment. I said to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron pipes any more.

Mr. Liebeler. Why did you say that to yourself when you picked up the package?

Mr. Paine. I had, my experience had been, my earliest camping equipment had been a tent of iron pipes. This somehow reminded me of that. I felt a pipe with my right hand and it was iron, that is to say it was not aluminum.

Mr. Liebeler. How did you make that distinction?

Mr. Paine. By the weight of it, and by the, I suppose the moment of inertia, you could have an aluminum tube with a total weight massed in the center somehow but that would not have had the inertia this way.

Mr. Dulles. You were just feeling this through the blanket though?

Mr. Paine. I was also aware as I was moving his goods around, of his rights to privacy. So I did not feel—I had to move this object, I wasn't thinking very much about it but it happens that I did think a little bit about it or before I get on to the working with my tools I thought, an image came to mind.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you think there was more than one tent pole in the package or just one tent pole?

Mr. Paine. As I say, I moved it several times, and I think I thought progressively each time. I moved it twice. It had three occasions. And the first one was an iron, thought of an iron pipe and then I have drawn, I drew yesterday, a picture of the thing I had in mind. Then in order to fill out the package I had to add another object to it and there I added again I was thinking of camping equipment, and I added a folding shovel such as I had seen in the Army, a little spade where the blade folds back over the handle. This has the trouble that this blade was too symmetrical I disposed to the handle and to fit the package the blade had to be off center, eccentric to the handle. Also, I had my vision of the pipe. It had an iron pipe about 30 inches long with a short section of pipe going off 45 degrees. No words here, it just happened that I did have this image in my mind of trying to fill up that package in the back burner of my mind.

Mr. Liebeler. The witness yesterday did draw a picture of what he visualized as being in the blanket, and I will offer it in evidence later on in the hearing.

How long was this package in your estimation?

Mr. Paine. Well, yesterday we measured the distance that I indicated with my hand, I think it came to 37 inches.

Mr. Liebeler. Approximately how thick would you say it was?

Mr. Paine. I picked it up each time and I put it in a position and then I would recover it from that position, so each time I moved it with the same position with my hands in the same position. My right hand, the thumb and forefinger could go around the pipe, and my left hand grabbed something which was an inch and a half inside the blanket or something thick.

Mr. Liebeler. Did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle in the package?

Mr. Paine. That did not occur to me.

Mr. Liebeler. You never at any time looked inside the package?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. I could easily have felt the package but I was aware that of respecting his privacy of his possessions.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you subsequently advised of the probability or the possibility that there had been a rifle wrapped in that package?

Mr. Paine. When I arrived on Friday afternoon we went into the garage, I think Ruth, Marina and the policeman, and I am not sure it was the first time, but there we saw this blanket was on the floor below the bandsaw——

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Paine. And a rifle was mentioned and then it rang a bell, the rifle answered, fitted the package that I had been trying to fit these unsuccessfully. It had never resolved itself, this shovel and pipe didn't fit in there.

Mr. Liebeler. And it seemed to you likely that there had in fact been a rifle in the package?

Mr. Paine. That answered it.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us when the last time was that you saw that package in the garage prior to the assassination?

Mr. Paine. No; I am afraid I can't.

Mr. Dulles. Do we have the date of the first time in the record?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; I think the witness testified it was either late September or early October of 1963.

I show you a blanket which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 140 and ask you if that is the blanket you saw in the garage?

Mr. Paine. This looks a little cleaner, of course. I was there in the night, and I also put the thing on the floor thinking it was rustic equipment and that sawdust wouldn't hurt it.

I also was concerned with moisture. This is very close to what I remember. Yesterday in my testimony I had a desire to add blue to the colors of brown and green. Last night I remembered that Thanksgiving weekend I had bought another rustic blanket of a similar nature which had blue in it, which is why I tried to get blue into the blanket.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you able to say at this time positively that this was the blanket that you saw in your garage and that you moved on various occasions in October and possibly November of 1963?

Mr. Paine. I didn't notice the particular design so I can't—it is a very good representative of what I remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember the texture of the blanket?

Mr. Paine. The texture. I felt it, of course, these several times and the texture is the same.

Mr. Liebeler. Was the package wrapped securely when it was in your garage?

Mr. Paine. I had the impression—yes, it was. The whole package was stiff. There was no shaking of the parts, and I had the impression it was wrapped with about two strings.

Mr. Liebeler. I now show you Commission Exhibit 139, which is a rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, and ask you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Paine. I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you seen it since that time and prior to yesterday?

Mr. Paine. I saw a rifle being shown to Marina in an adjoining cubicle with a glass wall between us.

Mr. Liebeler. When was that?

Mr. Paine. That was the night of the 22d.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever seen this leather strap that is attached to the rifle.

Mr. Paine. I have not seen that strap.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever seen a strap like this strap?

Mr. Paine. Or anything like it.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you any idea where this strap could have come from?

Mr. Paine. I don't.

Mr. Dulles. May I ask in that connection, was this just loosely wound up in that blanket or was there some string around it or——

Mr. Paine. I had the impression there were about two strings on the thing. It wouldn't—also, I didn't think you could look into the package readily.

Mr. Dulles. You would have to take something off, some string or something in order to get into the package?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. I now show you Commission Exhibit 364 which is a replica of a sack which was prepared by authorities in Dallas, and I also show you another sack which is Commission Exhibit 142, and ask you if you have ever seen in or around your garage in Irving, Tex., any sacks similar to those?

Mr. Paine. No; I haven't.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you seen any paper in your garage in Irving prior to November 22, 1963, or at any other place, at your home in Irving, Tex., that is similar to the paper of which those sacks are made?

Mr. Paine. No, I haven't; we have some rugs, most of them are wrapped in polyethylene. I couldn't be sure that one of the smaller ones wasn't wrapped in paper. To my knowledge, we had no free kraft paper of that size.

Mr. Liebeler. Will you examine the tape on the sacks and tell me whether you have any tape similar to that or whether you have seen any tape similar to that in your garage before November 22, 1963?

Mr. Paine. We have some tape in a drawer of my desk at the house, my recollection is that the tape is a 2-inch tape, gum tape.

Mr. Liebeler. And the tape on the sack appears to be three?

Mr. Paine. This is 3-inch.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever observe in your garage any scraps of paper or scraps of tape similar to the materials used to construct those sacks?

Mr. Paine. No, I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. Either before November 22, 1963, or afterwards?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. When you moved the sacks, the blanket, the package that was wrapped in the blanket in your garage, were you able to determine whether or not the object inside the sack was also wrapped in paper?

Mr. Paine. I would have said that it was not. When we practiced wrapping that rifle yesterday I would have guessed that any paper around the barrel in there, which I could feel with some clarity, would have crinkled.

Mr. Liebeler. And to your recollection there was no crinkling in the package wrapped with the blanket?

Mr. Paine. Yes. It was a very quiet package.

Mr. Liebeler. Yesterday we did try to and did wrap the rifle previously referred to in our testimony in the blanket which you have just examined. Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. Paine. I tried wrapping it to the shape and size and bulk that I remembered the package. I had a little difficulty, it got quite close to the right shape by wrapping it at an angle. The rifle was laid in the blanket somewhat on a bias to the rectangle blanket form. Then there was a small end of the barrel, I didn't discover how you could fold that over to tie it with string without making it bulkier than I remember. But the package came quite close to what I remembered.

Mr. Liebeler. Now on the basis of wrapping that rifle in the blanket, would you say that it was probable, that the package that was in your garage was in fact that rifle wrapped in that blanket?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think it was or a rifle of that size.

Mr. Liebeler. You said just a moment ago that you saw the rifle we have had here this morning or a similar rifle shown to Marina Oswald sometime shortly after the assassination. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that event?

Mr. Paine. We went to the police station that evening, and probably about 9 o'clock, I saw the rifle being shown to Marina.

Mr. Liebeler. This was at the Dallas police station?

Mr. Paine. Dallas police station. Ruth was present, and Mamantov was present.

Representative Ford. Who was the last one?

Mr. Paine. Ilya Mamantov, I think Ilya is the first name, but Mr. Mamantov. He teaches parttime, parttime teaching in Russian, was familiar to Ruth as the son-in-law of her tutor.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you hear any of the conversation that was going on in the room in which Marina was being shown this rifle?

Mr. Paine. No, no.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether or not your wife heard them?

Mr. Paine. My wife, of course, was right there. And heard the whole thing.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she subsequently tell you what occurred?

Mr. Paine. Yes, she did.

Mr. Liebeler. What did she tell you?

Mr. Paine. She told me that Marina wasn't able to identify that rifle as the one that Lee had. She knew that Lee had a rifle, and I think she knew it was wrapped in a package like this. I think Ruth reported that she had, Marina had, opened up a corner of the blanket and looked in and seen part of the butt, and hadn't liked the idea of rifles, the rifles made her a little uncomfortable and hadn't looked at it further.

Mr. Liebeler. This was at the time the rifle was presumably wrapped in the blanket in your garage, correct?

Mr. Paine. I assumed that. I didn't ask that question.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife tell you anything more about what happened at that time?

Mr. Paine. You will have to jog my memory if you have any specific questions. I don't recall.

Mr. Liebeler. That is the best of your recollection now that you have given us?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. How much would you say that the package that you saw in your garage weighed?

Mr. Paine. I reported earlier to the FBI 7 or 8 pounds. I never at the time thought of the weight of it as I was moving it around.

Mr. Liebeler. In your previous discussions or conversations with the FBI did you ever tell them in word or substance that if there had been a rifle in the package that was located in your garage that you did not think it could have a telescopic sight mounted on it?

Mr. Paine. I don't recall having said that. I don't believe I would have known that.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall any discussions of that sort with the FBI at all. Did they ask you about that?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think they asked me coming out to find out when and where and how the sight may have been put on but I never felt the package in the center. I always grabbed it at these two ends.

Mr. Liebeler. To the best of your recollection you never told the FBI that you didn't think the package contained a rifle with a telescopic sight?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever observe or hear prior to the assassination that Lee Oswald had been practicing with a rifle?

Mr. Paine. No, I didn't know prior to the assassination, we didn't know he had a rifle. I had supposed from my conversation with him back on Neely Street that he would like to have a rifle but I didn't gather that he did.

Mr. Liebeler. Aside from whether or not you knew that he had a rifle, did you ever hear or observe him practicing with a rifle?

Mr. Paine. No, I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you familiar with the Sport's Drome Rifle Range in Grand Prairie, Tex?

Mr. Paine. I think I know about where it is. No, I don't even know where it is. I know the race track is there.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever been there?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know that Oswald received mail at your house from Irving, Tex?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know what kind of mail he received?

Mr. Paine. I suppose he used it as the mailing address for most of his mail until he would receive, get a permanent address, so he received the Daily Worker there, or The Worker, and also, I didn't see it come, I don't generally see the mail that arrives there. Most of my mail would arrive at that address even though I was living somewhere else because I also didn't feel permanent in my other addresses, so Ruth would collect the mail and separated mine into a separate pile. I didn't see the Militant arrive. I did see various Russian magazines, Agitateur, maybe a very large one. A very large one and the Daily Worker, The Worker.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss these publications with Oswald?

Mr. Paine. Yes, we talked with regard to the Daily Worker. He said that, he told me, that you could tell what they wanted you to do, they, a word I dislike, what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines, reading the thing and doing a little reading between the lines. He then gave me an issue to look and see. I wanted to see if I could read between the lines and see what they wanted you to do.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you read the particular issue that he referred to?

Mr. Paine. I tried to. I don't think I had very much patience to go through it.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember what particular issue it was?

Mr. Paine. No, I didn't notice.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you set the date of this discussion that you had with Oswald?

Mr. Paine. That was fairly soon after his coming back. So let's say the middle of October.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he discuss with you, your ability or inability to determine what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines after you had read the publication?

Mr. Paine. No, I just handed it back to him.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there anything else said between you at that time on that subject?

Mr. Paine. He asked me how did I like it.

Mr. Liebeler. What did you say?

Mr. Paine. And I tried to be polite. I said it was awful extreme, I thought.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he respond to that?

Mr. Paine. I think that was the end of it.

Mr. Dulles. Do I understand that this was, this Daily Worker was, mailed——

Mr. Paine. To 515.

Mr. Dulles. To your address in Irving?

Mr. Paine. That is right. Or Ruth's address.

Mr. Dulles. It wasn't readdressed but it was directly sent?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. He gave your address for The Worker to come to?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Representative Ford. What prompted him to hand you The Worker? Was there any preface to the actual handing of it to you?

Mr. Paine. Yes. I think I was asking him, I would like to, I wanted to see some literature or what he liked to read or something like that. I think it was as a response to some question or inquiry of mine.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know whether this was addressed to him in care of you or Ruth Paine or was it just sent at the Paine address?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember for certain. I would think it would have just been Oswald at that address but I don't remember. It may have been. There were enough of those packages but I just don't remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you draw any inference at the time as a result of this conversation with Oswald about his statement that you could tell what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines?

Mr. Paine. Well, it made me realize that he would like to be active in some kind of—activist. It made me also feel that he wasn't very well connected with a group or he wouldn't have such a tenuous way of communication, and I thought it was rather childish to someone like Dick Tracy, attract a child to Dick Tracy, to think that that was his bona fide way of being communicated or being a member of this Communist cause or something.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have any other discussions with him about literature that he received?

Mr. Paine. I didn't know. Other literature, I was somewhat interested in what the Russian publications were saying but I didn't take it up with him. I wanted Ruth to translate those.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever observe any Cuban literature?

Mr. Paine. No, I didn't.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever know that he ever received any such literature?

Mr. Paine. No, I never, until after the assassination, I had never thought of Cuba either in connection with Oswald or in connection with the Communists or the Communist Party.

Mr. Liebeler. I show you Commission Exhibit 128 which is ENCO Map of the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and ask you if you recognize that map.

Mr. Paine. This is the kind of map that I always used, stopping in stations when I am out of one so I always have one in my car, and when the FBI showed me this particular map, which I trust is the same one I looked at before. I found on the back side a mark where it shows the whole map of the whole area, the Dallas-Fort Worth area, a little mark where our house is, that is the kind of mark that I would make when I was trying to buy some land earlier and had in mind for a long time and I wanted to find the location that was accessible to the places I would then want to go.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us——

Mr. Paine. This mark is still here.

Representative Ford. This is the mark or can you identify that mark that you placed on this map?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think I see a mark here of the sort which looks reasonable to me. I think it is the only mark on this side of the map.

Generally, I didn't make marks on the other side of the map.

Mr. Liebeler. In your statement referring to one side of the map you were referring to the side that shows a map of the entire Fort Worth-Dallas area, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. And you say as best you can see there is only one mark on this side of the map?

Mr. Paine. That is the only one that is here, that I remember having found. I don't remember finding another one.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember putting that mark on the map?

Mr. Paine. I remember putting—I think I put this kind of mark on more than one map. That is our house. It then helps locate it with regard to all the arteries and what not that lead to various places.

Mr. Liebeler. You do think then it is probable that you did place the mark on the map that indicates the location of your house in Irving, Tex.; is that correct?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think that is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever came into possession of this map?

Mr. Paine. And Ruth gave Oswald a map to—she told me she gave him a map, and this is the kind we have around the house, the best one she could get in the service station, to help him find a job, or help him when he was searching for a job.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any other conversations with your wife about the map before the assassination?

Mr. Paine. No, I don't believe she told me she had given him the map. I don't believe we discussed it at all.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you open the map to the portion that shows the area of Dallas. I call your attention to a mark at the intersection of Boll Street and San Jacinto, and ask you if you have any recollection of placing that mark on the map?

Mr. Paine. No, I don't have any recollection of placing that mark on the map.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any circumstances that might make it likely that you placed that mark on the map?

Mr. Paine. I could have placed that mark on the map when I was looking for properties. I went down to the courthouse to get plats of the areas that I was thinking of buying, and they had a copy of the plat, and so they sent it out late on Saturday, short of 12 o'clock, and just short of closing, and it was a reproduction company at that address or near that address.

Mr. Liebeler. Is that the L. L. Ridgway Co.?

Mr. Paine. Yes. That is the company that I am referring to. I don't know exactly.

Mr. Liebeler. But it is near the intersection we have just referred to?

Mr. Paine. I will take your word for that.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know that it is?

Mr. Paine. No, I don't know. I think the FBI man said it was. I hadn't looked into it and didn't check it.

Mr. Liebeler. You haven't any knowledge at this point whether the Ridgway company is in this intersection or not?

Mr. Paine. I remember it is right beside the expressway and in about that area. I don't remember the names of the roads.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think it is probable or improbable that you placed the mark on the map, the one we have just been talking about, at Boll and San Jacinto Streets?

Mr. Paine. I remember in asking the clerk where it was, and I had a map of this sort, that was also in August when I was looking for places. I would have guessed I would not. I would have been able to see where it was and know in my mind where I wanted to go.

Mr. Dulles. Is that the same kind of a mark or a different kind of mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map?

Mr. Paine. It is a different mark. That mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map, was our house. So I made a little square that I can see and indicate a house rather than—generally I don't make marks on maps. I look up where I want to go and I go.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife tell you when she had given this map to Oswald?

Mr. Paine. I suppose she gave it very soon after he came back and started looking for work.

Mr. Liebeler. And you said it was August of 1963 when you were looking to find this reproduction place; is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. I call your attention to a mark on Hillcrest and Asbury, and I ask you if you put that mark on the map?

Mr. Paine. I don't recall making that mark. I think it is different from the other mark, and it is—if I were to make a mark that is more the way I would make a mark. It also happens to be the cafeteria where I like to eat, where you can get all you want for a dollar there, and it is a very good meal. So I would be interested in that, in locating it. Here is one of the places where I was thinking of buying property.

Mr. Dulles. Is there a mark there at that place where you were interested in buying property?

Mr. Paine. I don't think there is. I almost guessed that I didn't have that map at that time. Also I was not living—I would guess for a further reason that I would not have this map on the time of that August date was because I hadn't been living—I had been living in this apartment, and I had a map over there, and I probably didn't have the same map that Ruth had around her house.

Mr. Liebeler. So you think it is probably likely you didn't place any marks on that map other than the one indicating your home?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. In other words, I think that mark was placed there quite a long time back, because I have been interested in this locating of property for several years.

Mr. Liebeler. Is the mark at the Hillcrest Avenue spot, a mark of the type that you usually make?

Mr. Paine. And, as I say, I don't usually make a mark, but I think I might more likely have made that kind of mark, more than some of the others—somebody else has put marks here with a ball-point pen which are not the kind I would make.

Mr. Liebeler. In reviewing this map with the FBI, were there any other marks on the map that it was developed that you possibly put on the map other than the ones we have discussed?

Mr. Paine. I don't now remember any others. This one of the cafeteria there is not exactly at the right spot.

Mr. Liebeler. The mark at Hillcrest Avenue?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. As you look at the map now do you see any other marks which you think you might have put on the map?

Mr. Paine. No. We went over it at mealtime in considerable detail, he having located most of the marks he could find on the map—no, I guess it was still marked up like this. We didn't find anything that I can remember there that I might have put on there.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, on the basis of your knowledge of Oswald and your meeting with him, and your familiarity with him prior to the time of the assassination, did you form an opinion about him as to whether or not he would be likely to commit an act such as this, or whether he would be likely to take the life of any human being?

Mr. Paine. It was a question we had to consider when we considered having Marina at our house. So Ruth and I discussed that, whether he was a dangerous person, and he didn't seem to be dangerous. Of course, I also felt that I wasn't a particular opponent or foe of his. Helping his family we were quite free and would let him, roughly, think of our arguments. I talked about getting angry, but, for the most part, it was a cordial relationship, so I didn't sense—he didn't display hostility to me or to Ruth, and he was nice with the children, and while they were living with us, he was nice to Marina also. He was during this time when he returned from Mexico, he was quite a reasonable person. He was only unreasonable the first time I had met him.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you have this discussion with your wife concerning whether or not you should let Marina live with you? Was that before they came back from New Orleans?

Mr. Paine. Yes, it was.

Mr. Liebeler. And you concluded at that time there was no reason why Marina should not come there; is that right?

Mr. Paine. That is right. Of course, Ruth went in and sounded them out rather cautiously and reported to me also his facial expressions and what-not when she was suggesting this, and he seemed to be glad of that rather than worried.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, after Marina came and lived at your house, Oswald was there during parts of the months October and November. Did you change your opinion in this respect or was it reinforced, on the basis of his activities and your observation of him during that period?

Mr. Paine. It was reinforced.

Mr. Liebeler. You did not think him to be a violent person or one who would be likely to commit an act such as assassinating the President?

Mr. Paine. I didn't—I saw he was a bitter person, he was bitter and quite a lot of very negative views of people in the world around him, very little charity in his view toward anybody, but I thought he was harmless.

Representative Ford. Was this a different reaction from the one you had had at your first meeting or your first acquaintance?

Mr. Paine. When we first became acquainted I was somewhat shocked, especially that he would speak so harshly to his wife in front of a complete stranger, and it was at that point, or at that time, that I was persuaded I would like to free Marina from her bondage and servitude to this man. He seemed to me he was keeping her, not helping her to learn the language, keeping her vassal to him, and this offended me, so at that point I became interested in helping her escape from him. Of course, I was not going to try to force that. I didn't want to be separating a family that could get along.

Mr. Liebeler. This bitterness that you detected following his return from Mexico, was that a new reaction?

Mr. Paine. No. That bitterness had existed all along. He also had been disagreeable to his wife, cruel to her.

Mr. Liebeler. I see.

Mr. Paine. Not allowing her any personality, a mind of her own, and making sharp jibes at her.

Mr. Dulles. And that continued awhile?

Mr. Paine. That only existed that first night in March or April.

Mr. Dulles. It did not continue when Marina was at your house in Irving?

Mr. Paine. When Marina came to our house she gained in health and weight. She started to look better and it looked to me as if the strain was off the family relationship. They were not quarreling. They billed and cooed. She sat on his lap and he said sweet nothings in her ear.

Mr. Dulles. Did you get any information from any source with regard to the situation while they were living in New Orleans that she wanted to get away from him?

Mr. Paine. Oh, yes; well, Ruth had told me when she came back from delivering Marina to New Orleans, she had gone down there expecting to spend a week, seeing New Orleans, and it was a pretty long trip, and found the household, she reported to me, so uncomfortable living there. They were fighting, I mean, so difficult. She wanted to leave right away, and she left in a few days, left a lot sooner than she had expected to leave.

Mr. Dulles. Then your wife took her back, as you recall?

Mr. Paine. Then, my wife came home, and then she went back to Naushon, Mass., for a couple of months in the summer, and on her way back to Texas stopped in New Orleans, found him out of work, and invited Marina to come back with her right then.

Mr. Dulles. What did she learn at that time about Oswald? What did she learn about Lee Oswald's treatment of Marina, anything new or different at the time she stopped by New Orleans, and then went back?

Mr. Paine. She, perhaps, saw he loved her because she said that the parting, he genuinely seemed so happy to have Ruth take her back. In other words, he seemed to be exhibiting some concern for Marina, who was with child, and the child would be adequately taken care of, and sorry—it was a cheerful parting or something. She saw human qualities in him at that time.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she say after Marina returned to your home in Irving, and after Oswald came back to Dallas that their relationship improved even more, and Oswald seemed to be under less strain than he had been prior to that time; is that correct?

Mr. Paine. Well, I don't—I only know two times, at the time in April when they came to dinner with us, and he was rough, crude, uncivil to her, and Ruth's report of how they were while she was trying to live in this house in New Orleans, when she just moved in.

She also reported to me, and she will tell you this though that apparently Lee had wanted to make her happy in this house, had liked the house, said it was in the old famous quarter of New Orleans, and Ruth could see that Marina was unhappy. She thought it was uncomfortable in this darkness, and Ruth thought it was a tragedy. Both points of view were valid depending on which way you looked at it, so she saw that Lee apparently had wanted to make her happy, wanted her to like the house when she arrived in New Orleans, and had called her out there. She had also been eager to go out.

Apparently Ruth reported to me when he called from New Orleans, saying he had a job and "come live with me, come back with me," Marina had been very happy.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you specifically consider the question before you let Marina move into your home as to whether Oswald was a violent person?

Mr. Paine. Yes, specifically. I talked it over with Frank. Frank raised the question also. So I talked it over with Ruth several times, and Frank brought up the question, and I thought of it myself.

Mr. Liebeler. And you concluded on the basis of these discussions and your knowledge of Oswald, your collective knowledge of Oswald, at that time that he was not a violent person; is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That he wasn't going to stab Ruth or Marina.

Mr. Liebeler. That he wasn't going to exhibit any violence to any of you people?

Mr. Paine. That is right. He wouldn't be a danger to Ruth. That was partly based, first, on the fact that we were not—we were careful to avoid putting him in a position that he felt offended.

Mr. Liebeler. You didn't consider at the time that you were considering Oswald's possible violence toward you and your group whether he might exhibit violence to some other person?

Mr. Paine. That is correct; yes.

Mr. Liebeler. You formed no judgment about that one way or the other?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. We assumed or felt that—if we handled him with a gentle or considerate manner that he wouldn't be a danger to us.

Mr. Dulles. In the light of subsequent information and developments, and the information which is publicly available, have you reached any other conclusions as to or any conclusions as to whether or not Lee Oswald was the assassin of the President?

Mr. Paine. When the police first asked me did I think he had done it, my dubiousness in my mind arose from not seeing how this could fit, how this could help his cause, and I didn't think he was irrational. It did not seem to me that he could shoot a man as he would shoot a tin can. Difficulty of a person shooting another person was not the reason for my doubting, and the circumstantial evidence seemed quite powerful to me.

Mr. Liebeler. Seemed quite powerful?

Mr. Paine. Yes. But then I realized with subsequent people calling from all over the country, somebody had said it is only a single-shot rifle, and I recognize one little fact like that could alter my thinking entirely. Somebody else said there was a shot through the windshield of the car. We went down to the place and looked around, and he thought that—he had a theory that the man had been shot from a manhole in the street, so I recognized that my views could change with evidence.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have a view on Oswald's guilt at this time?

Mr. Paine. Most of these other things have proved to be false. It seems to be a clip-fed rifle. The man who thought it was shot from the place, I went down and saw the diagram drawn by Life seemed to be quite accurate so far as I could reconstruct the thing, and there was confusion about the number of bullets. I never did discover—it didn't quite make sense, but for the most part, I accept it, the common view that he did it.

Mr. Liebeler. Where were you on the morning of November 22, 1963?

Mr. Paine. I was having, at the time of the assassination I was at work, of course, but at the time of the assassination I was in the cafeteria associated with the bowling alley having lunch.

Mr. Liebeler. Who was with you?

Mr. Paine. A student, a co-op student called Dave Noel happened to be with me. We happened to be talking about the character of assassins at that lunchtime, of all things.

Mr. Liebeler. Prior to the time you heard of the assassination?

Mr. Paine. That is right. When we first sat down at the meal we were discussing it, beside the point, except unless you believe in extrasensory perception, but we happened to just—we didn't have enough historical knowledge to explore it, but I just raised the question and tried to pursue it, and then dropped it, and then a waitress came and said the President had been shot, and I thought she was cracking a nasty joke, and went over to a cluster of people listening around a transistor set, and heard there was some commotion of this sort from the tone of the voice of the transistor set, and we went back to the lab where there is a good radio, and followed the news from there.

When it was mentioned, the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, then I told Frank Krystinik that that was where Lee Oswald worked, and then in a few minutes he came back and said, he asked me, didn't I think I had better call the FBI and tell them.

So over a period of about 20 minutes, I trying to carry on work in a foolish way, or talking or discussing other things or something, we were discussing this problem, and I thought, I said to myself, or said to him, that the FBI already knew he worked there. Everybody would know he was a black sheep, and I didn't want to—a friend or one of the few friends in position of friendship to him, I didn't want to—join the mob barking at his heels or join in his harassment, so I declined. I didn't tell Frank that he couldn't call the FBI, but I said I wasn't going to do it, so I didn't.

I called Ruth immediately after getting back just to see that she would turn on the radio and be clued in with the news, but this was before the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, to my knowledge, and she was already watching the news. So we communicated nothing at that time.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know whether your luncheon companion did or did not telephone the FBI?

Mr. Paine. This is not the luncheon companion. This is Dave Noel. Frank Krystinik brings his lunch, and he eats his lunch at the lab.

Mr. Dulles. At the lab?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Paine, would you give us the nature of the conversation you were having concerning assassination prior to the assassination. First let me ask you was anybody else present beside you and your companion at the time of the conversation?

Mr. Paine. No, just he and I.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us the general essence of the conversation as best you can recall.

Mr. Paine. There had been talk, of course, people, I don't get a newspaper, but I do listen to the radio. I know what my news source is, it is mostly magazines. So there was some anxiety about the President coming to Dallas-Fort Worth, and it appeared that this thought was in the minds of several others, I was not singular in this way. It had been expected, of course, that trouble would come from the right-wing, and I was wondering whether there was any danger, I suppose, that is somebody who could be drummed up by local feeling. The number of anti-Kennedy jokes cracked was quite large in Texas, and so I was wondering, you know, what kind of a person would kill a President, and I don't think Dave Noel knew anything about it, so it was just musing or conjecturing on my part. I certainly didn't think of Lee Oswald. I didn't expect it from that cause, from that end of the spectrum.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you first think of Lee Oswald in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Paine. As soon as I heard the Texas School Book Depository Building mentioned. Now, I did not know that—it never occurred to me, I didn't realize, there was a building there on his route. I had seen this warehouse building from the expressway, you can see the name written in large letters, but that is the way from any main thoroughfare. So I had supposed, I never put—except when it was mentioned that that was the building he shot from or was the building that the shot was fired from, then I realized I did know where he worked.

Mr. Dulles. You had not been at Irving that previous night?

Mr. Paine. No, I had not.

Mr. Liebeler. You knew Oswald worked at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I did.

Mr. Liebeler. As soon as you heard that that building was involved in the assassination, you thought of Oswald, did you not?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. What did you think?

Mr. Paine. Wondering whether Oswald would do it. And the argument against it, the only argument against it, was just I didn't think he was irrational, or it seemed to me to be irrational.

Mr. Liebeler. And you asked yourself the question of whether or not Oswald would do it solely on the basis of your knowledge that he worked in that building, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. Yes. Well, I didn't realize he worked in that building, but then I realized I didn't know—I knew he worked at that organization. I didn't realize there was a building on Elm Street there.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to your wife after you heard that the Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, and before you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Paine. I don't believe so. I think I called her only once to see that she was listening to the news, and then I assumed she would know all that I knew, and as soon as she heard that I supposed she would be wondering the same thing. It wasn't many minutes later though, it seemed to me, that the name Lee Oswald was mentioned—in the theater. The newsmen didn't connect it up at all, but that is all I needed to send me home.

Mr. Liebeler. So then you left for your home in Irving?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. You left for home before there had been any public connection made between Oswald and the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. Paine. Well, of course, the police were reporting they had suspects here and suspects there, were chasing suspects over here, and here was a man who had shot Officer Tippit. They didn't even mention him as a suspect, but there was another murder coincident in time.

Mr. Liebeler. So the news broadcast connected Oswald with Officer Tippit?

Mr. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you then consider again whether or not Oswald had been involved in the assassination?

Mr. Paine. Well, that was too much to have his name mentioned away from his place of work as having killed somebody; the stew was too thick to stay at work, and I was shaken too much, anyway.

Mr. Liebeler. So your testimony is that you first thought of Oswald after you heard of the Texas School Book Depository Building being involved in the assassination, but you concluded at that time that Oswald was probably not involved in the assassination; is that correct?

Mr. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. Is there any other reason other than the fact Oswald was at that building that made you think of him when you heard that building mentioned in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Paine. Well, yes; Oswald, of course, stands—he is a black sheep in society; I mean he is, if you were to pick out the singular person among the employees there, he is the one, or he is probably the one. I don't happen to know the people who worked there. I gather from him there were about 30 people working there in a fairly large building.

Mr. Liebeler. What was your state of mind when you heard that the Texas School Book Depository Building was involved in the shooting, did you deeply suspect Oswald had been involved, or was it just a passing thought? Tell us some more about that if you can, recreate your state of mind.

Mr. Paine. I think I was nervous. I know I was trying to assemble a vibration meter and could not put in the screws or I kept making mistakes. I was preoccupied. Of course, the darn fools, we should have all stopped to mourn the President, but it is kind of a habit, I wasn't accustomed, habit drove us on, very unhappy or unresolved emotional time. I thought, firstly, Frank was quite insistent, he didn't just ask me once, but several times, whether I didn't think I should call the FBI.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you why he thought you should call the FBI?

Mr. Paine. Well, he would have, but he is of that nature. At one time he had seen someone taking pictures of Hensley Field, which has signs on the outside "No Photographs Allowed," and I said I believe more in freedom. It seems to me if the field doesn't want the pictures taken, they had better put up a big fence. But he had gone ahead and called up the base commander, and the base commander knew the man. That was his normal mode of behavior, whereas my normal defense is of the individual, and I didn't think—I would not like to, if Lee is falsely accused, I wouldn't want to be jumping on him with the mob. If he is properly, if he is guilty, he will be found. They know he works there, he is connected to us. I couldn't contribute to his capture, so that my withholding information wouldn't harm the search for the right man, and having jumped on him unfairly I might be ashamed of that later on. So that was my feeling in regard to whether I should call the FBI. I think I just kind of felt cold sweats or something like that in regard to the question could he have done that thing. I don't think I went much beyond that, could he, could he.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Krystinik indicate to you any reason for his desire to call the FBI? Did he suspect Oswald had done this on the basis of his knowledge of Oswald?

Mr. Paine. It seemed to me very reasonable that he should think so. Of course, I don't think the others were so sharply aware, the others in the lab were so sharply aware that we were wrestling with this problem.

The Chairman. He didn't say anything to you, he didn't tell you any other reason?

Mr. Paine. No, he didn't; but his reaction seemed perfectly reasonable to me.

The Chairman. Yes.

Mr. Paine. I felt the same one—if you were to pick out somebody in that building, it was a rather singular coincidence we knew this man who was so negative to our society and not an ingratiating person, not a person with compassion or something.

Mr. Liebeler. What time did you arrive at your home in Irving?

Mr. Paine. I would guess about 3 or 3:30, somewhere in that neighborhood.

Mr. Liebeler. Who was there when you arrived?

Mr. Paine. The police, the Dallas police mostly were there.

Mr. Liebeler. Your wife was there?

Mr. Paine. My wife and Marina.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember what you said when you arrived?

Mr. Paine. I don't know. No, I don't remember what I said.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you say in words or substance, "I came right home as soon as I heard the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building?"

Mr. Paine. No, I came right home as soon as I heard Lee Oswald mentioned. I did not come home.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember saying that you came right home as soon as you heard that Oswald was involved?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think I said something like that. Ruth asked me.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, you mentioned before that after you arrived home you went into the garage when the police officers went into your garage. Was there any indication to you at that time that the garage had been previously searched by the police or anyone else?

Mr. Paine. This I don't remember very well. But, as I remember, this was not the first time we had gone in there. I think, perhaps, they went into—I don't remember, but I don't think it was the first time they had gone in.

Mr. Liebeler. You said when you did go into the garage, however, the blanket was there in the garage?

Mr. Paine. I think it was. It was still there.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said in respect of the blanket and search of the garage, as you say. Before you answer that question, let me ask you, did your wife go with you into the garage with the police officers?

Mr. Paine. I think they were further in in the garage. I think I stayed—the band saw is fairly close to—there is an overhead door to the garage, and close to the under edge of that when it is pulled up. In other words, it is fairly close to the outside in the garage, and I think I stayed somewhat near the door entering the garage, which is the inside end of the garage.

Mr. Liebeler. And your wife was with the police officers further in?

Mr. Paine. Yes, I think she was.

Mr. Liebeler. Was Marina Oswald there?

Mr. Paine. Failure of recollection, I would say, yes. But it is a very fuzzy recollection.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us where the blanket was found?

Mr. Paine. It doesn't really make sense as to why they would still leave the blanket there, and these things would have been discussed at that time, but I kind of remember a kind of silhouette situation, a police officer either lifted up or kicked this blanket, which was in exactly the same location that the rifle, the package had been, underneath the saw and somewhat in the sawdust. And I think he put it back there. He may have asked me at that time, "Did you know what was in this?"

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember that?

Mr. Paine. And that is why I think they asked me, it may have been as early as that, whether it was a rifle, "Do you think it could have been a rifle?" I don't remember how it was posed, but I probably answered when it was suggested, it was a rifle, and there they suggested it was a rifle, because they had already learned from Marina that he had had a rifle, and it had been, perhaps, had learned it had been in that blanket.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know they had previously asked Marina about that?

Mr. Paine. No; but I think—I'm just telling you my impressions here, very fuzzy impressions.

Mr. Liebeler. Go ahead.

Mr. Paine. My impression was that they asked me if I knew what was in this blanket, or he asked me, and then he asked me if it could be a rifle, and I probably responded, yes. It didn't take long once the rifle was suggested as the object to fit this puzzle together, this puzzle of the pieces that I had been trying to assemble in the package.

Mr. Liebeler. What else happened?

Mr. Paine. We went out of the garage, I don't think he took the blanket then even.

Mr. Liebeler. This is the Dallas police officer?

Mr. Paine. Yes, plainclothesman, wearing black hats; one of them had one of those Texas hats. He collected all the useless stuff in our house, he went around and collected all the files of Ruth, and a drawer of cameras, mostly belonging to me. I tried to tell him one of the files contained our music or something like that, and the more I suggested it, that he not bother taking those, the more insistent he was in taking those objects.

So with the various boxes and piles of stuff, mostly of our stuff, we got in the car and went off, and he was quite irked that we had wasted quite enough time around there, he said, and Ruth was irked, and everybody was irked by it. He wouldn't let us be helpful, and thought we were—he became angry when we tried to be helpful or something that we would suggest that he should do.

Mr. Liebeler. Did they tell you how they happened to come to your house?

Mr. Paine. No. I don't remember. I think I may have asked it, "You found us pretty quickly," or somebody said this, but I don't remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any other conversations about this blanket?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Liebeler. Did anyone notice any scraps of paper or tape similar to the ones of which these sacks were constructed that we previously identified, particularly Commission 142?

Mr. Paine. Not that I remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Is there anything else that happened during this period prior to the time the police left that you think would be significant or that we ought to know about?

Mr. Paine. No; very little happened. We just bundled up and went. Marina was—whimpered a little bit, but mostly it was dry.

Mr. Liebeler. You went with the police?

Mr. Paine. We went with the police in several cars and didn't come back until quite a lot later that night, didn't go into the garage again; didn't want the Life reporters to take photographs, so I don't think they went in the garage to take photographs. Several—their possessions were searched by various waves of succeeding policemen, Dallas, and Irving and FBI, and what not.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, there has been a report that on November 23, 1963, there was a telephone call between a man and a woman, between the numbers of your residence and the number of your office, in which the man was reported to have said in words or substance, "We both know who is responsible for the assassination." Have you been asked about this before?

Mr. Paine. I had heard that—I didn't know it was associated with our numbers. I had heard a report that some telephone operator had listened in on a conversation somewhere, I don't know where it was. I thought it was some other part of the country.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to your wife on the telephone at any time during Saturday, November 23, on the telephone?

Mr. Paine. I was in the police station again, and I think I called her from there.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you make any remark to the effect that you knew who was responsible?

Mr. Paine. And I don't know who the assassin is or was; no, so I did not.

Mr. Liebeler. You are positive in your recollection that you made no such remark?

Mr. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us your impression and your opinion of the relationship that had developed between Marina Oswald and your wife during the period that they knew each other up to the time of the assassination and subsequent to the assassination when, as we discussed briefly yesterday, there came to be a cooling off between them or a disenchantment.

Mr. Paine. Ruth was mostly learning the language, so she was limited in her vocabulary and couldn't talk about—she explained to me she couldn't talk about—political or economic subjects. It was a topic on which her vocabulary didn't serve her, but it did appear she had spoken of quite a number of things. Marina had told her about movies she had seen in the Soviet Union, but I thought that the knowledge, Ruth's knowledge, I suppose Ruth's knowledge of Marina was fairly shallow. And Marina was quite reserved. Now, it may have been more so when I was in the house that she was not as much at ease as she was, perhaps, with Ruth herself.

Of course, Marina was in a position where she always had to be polite. Ruth is easy to get along with, however, so I didn't expect Marina to have difficulty. But I didn't think Ruth and Marina were bosom friends or buddies, but neither, of course, I didn't mean to suggest the opposite.

Ruth was enjoying Marina's company and I was glad to have Marina staying with Ruth. It actually reduced the cost. Ruth saved money. The bills were less while Marina was there, and Ruth, in general, was happier.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you learn——

Mr. Paine. I didn't think Ruth knew Marina very well, but I don't know how well she knew her.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you learn subsequently or are you aware that subsequent to the assassination there has been a disenchantment or some strain between Marina and Ruth?

Mr. Paine. Several things happened. Ruth was put out when she learned Marina knew afterward that Oswald had taken a shot at Walker, if that were true. She thought that was quite morally remiss on Marina's part, and so we talked about that thing.

Mr. Dulles. When did she learn that?

Mr. Paine. This was in the newspaper report.

Mr. Dulles. She only learned it through the newspaper?

Mr. Paine. That is correct. So we discussed the mitigating circumstances of Marina not knowing the language and not knowing who she could go to if she wanted to stay in this country and, perhaps—we believe there were extenuating circumstances which would, perhaps, excuse Marina. Ruth was troubled about that, and so she wrote a series of quite a number of letters, each one referring to previous letters, trying to discover whether they were being withheld, thinking Marina was a responsible person or normally civil person, she would normally respond to or at least acknowledge receipt of them.

So Ruth didn't know whether she was receiving them or not, and had another—some encounters with Martin and Thorne which didn't put her at ease. She still didn't know whether Marina was receiving them. She saw only some of the checks had been signed by Thorne rather than Marina. Thorne had said that Marina didn't say he had power of attorney, and Marina was trying to do everything that she could which, at least, she could sign her checks, checks or gifts.

So there were these indications. Ruth was very much in the dark, not knowing why she had received no communication from Marina, and having conflicting reports from Martin. Martin said she had a phone right beside her if she wanted to call.

Mr. Dulles. How did she receive these checks?

Mr. Paine. I guess Ruth—some of the checks came to Ruth as gifts to her, and Ruth would write her own check so she got her own stub back.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

Mr. Paine. Therefore, Ruth had this question of whether she had offended Marina or whether Marina had done something that offended Ruth or whether Marina didn't like Ruth and had never let on. This would be a great blow to her ego. It had Ruth in great periods of depression and anxiety.

Mr. Dulles. Did either you or your wife, to your knowledge, know Robert Oswald?

Mr. Paine. We only met him for the first time on the night of the assassination. We both liked him at that time.

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Paine, is there any other subject that we haven't covered in the testimony that you think the Commission ought to know about in connection with this assassination?

Mr. Paine. I don't believe there is anything else that I know.

Mr. Liebeler. I have no more questions.

The Chairman. Do you have any questions, Mr. Dulles?

Mr. Dulles. The only question I have in mind is as to what took place as far as Mr. Paine is concerned on the night of the assassination. Were you in the police station?

Mr. Paine. We went down to the police and stayed there until about 8 or 9 o'clock. Then Marguerite came home with us and spent the night.

Mr. Dulles. You didn't see Lee Harvey at that time, did you?

Mr. Paine. They asked me and I declined to see him at that time. I changed my mind. When they immediately asked me, I declined. I did not know what he would ask me, so I did not see him.

Mr. Dulles. You did not see him?

Mr. Paine. No.

Mr. Dulles. Did your wife see him?

Mr. Paine. I think no one saw him. Marina went in the next morning hoping to see him.

Mr. Dulles. There were no conversations that took place that evening that are pertinent to our investigation so far as you know?

Mr. Paine. Quite soon I called the ACLU. There were reports, yes, I think at that time, that Friday night, Marguerite was saying he wasn't receiving counsel, and so I called the ACLU to see if there was anybody there checking to see if this was true, and apparently a delegation, this was Saturday morning, and apparently a delegation had been sent.

Mr. Dulles. But to your knowledge neither you nor your wife had any conversations with Marina or Robert that would throw any light on this apparent coolness?

Mr. Paine. Ruth apparently saw Marina this last weekend. We have some indications that people had gone between, chiefly Levine.

Mr. Dulles. You think money considerations had anything to do with this?

Mr. Paine. I think quite a lot—it will be borne out, between Ruth and Marina subsequently, I think they will find the difficulties. I think Thorne——

Mr. Dulles. What I have in mind is as to whether some of these other people thought that you and Ruth might intervene in as business manager or something of that kind between them, and the monetary considerations that were coming in to Marina.

Mr. Paine. We didn't know why. We have the feeling that Thorne was advising her not to speak to Ruth. Ruth is not interested in the money, but is interested in protecting her from the wolves, and so she thought, we both thought, there were some false stories being told to Marina in regard to Ruth.

Mr. Dulles. That is all.

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Paine.

Mr. Paine. Thank you, sir.

The Chairman. We will examine Mrs. Paine this afternoon at 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 1:05 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

---

Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:20 p.m.

Mr. McCloy. Before I ask you to be sworn, Mrs. Paine. I will give you a little general indication of what our testimony is apt to cover.

We have heard that you and your husband made the acquaintance of the Oswalds somewhere during 1963, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in your home from late September 1963, I believe, to the time of the assassination.

Since we are inquiring under our mandate into the background and the possible motives of the assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, we will question you regarding your association with Mr. Oswald and try to glean from you any other facts that may bear upon the assassination or its motivation.

I believe you have been furnished with a copy of the executive order under which we are operating as well as the Congressional resolution?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Now if you will please stand, I will swear you.

Mrs. Paine. I would like to affirm.

Mr. McCloy. Do you solemnly affirm that the evidence you will give in this investigation will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. McCloy. Will you state your full name for the record and your address?

Mrs. Paine. I am Ruth Hyde Paine. I live at 2515 West Fifth Street, in Irving, Tex.

Mr. McCloy. Mr. Jenner is going to conduct the examination.

Mr. Jenner. Your maiden name?

Mrs. Paine. Is Hyde.

Mr. Jenner. Ruth Avery Hyde.

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. You are wife of Michael Ralph Paine?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you were born September 3, 1932?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You are almost 34 years old.

Mrs. Paine. Almost 32. I will be 32 in September.

Mr. Jenner. Pretty bad arithmetic. Just a little bit of your background, Mrs. Paine, very little. Your mother and father are living?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And your mother is an Unitarian Minister ordained in the Unitarian Church at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she is.

Mr. Jenner. And received her degree in theology last summer I believe, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. No, she has completed her work for a Bachelor of Divinity Degree from Oberlin College and she will receive it in the spring. They don't give them in mid-year. She completed just the first of February.

Mr. Jenner. You yourself are a college graduate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Antioch College?

Mrs. Paine. Yellow Springs.

Mr. Jenner. Yellow Springs, Ohio?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. You have a brother and sister.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And your mother, your father, yourself, your brother, and your sister are your entire family.

Mrs. Paine. My immediate family.

Mr. Jenner. Your brother is a graduate of Antioch also, he and your sister. Are they older than you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, they are.

Mr. Jenner. Which is the elder of the two?

Mrs. Paine. My brother is the oldest.

Mr. Jenner. And your brother is a professional man, is he?

Mrs. Paine. He is a doctor, general practitioner.

Mr. Jenner. A general physician, and he practices in Yellow Springs, Ohio?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us where Yellow Springs is?

Mrs. Paine. It is about 60 miles south and west from Columbus, Ohio, the capital, which is more or less in the middle of the State, and just a little bit east of Dayton.

Mr. Jenner. Is your brother married.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, he is.

Mr. Jenner. Does he have a family?

Mrs. Paine. He has four children.

Mr. Jenner. And is your sister married?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she is.

Mr. Jenner. Does she have a family?

Mrs. Paine. She has four children.

Mr. Jenner. And each of your brothers and your sister, it is their first marriage?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Now you were married to Mr. Paine December 28, 1957, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. And you were married where, in Philadelphia?

Mrs. Paine. It was suburban Philadelphia. Friends meeting in Media, Pa.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us what the Friends meeting is which you have mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. I am a member of the Society of Friends often known as Quakers.

Mr. Jenner. You are a Quaker?

Mrs. Paine. I am.

Mr. Jenner. When did you embrace that faith?

Mrs. Paine. I joined in early 1951, I believe.

Mr. Jenner. Has any other member of your family embraced the Quaker faith?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; my brother is also a Quaker.

Mr. Jenner. When did he embrace that faith.

Mrs. Paine. Similar in time, a year or two one way or the other. I don't recall exactly.

Mr. Jenner. I am afraid I might have been inattentive. When did you say that occurred?

Mrs. Paine. Similar in time. I don't remember just when exactly he joined.

Mr. Jenner. I was thinking more as to when you said you did.

Mrs. Paine. In early '51, I think; I am quite certain it was winter of '51.

Mr. Jenner. You were then in college?

Mrs. Paine. That was the year out. I went to Antioch one year and then I took a year out and I joined my home meeting in Columbus which I had already attended perhaps 2 years.

Mr. Jenner. And from the time you joined the Quaker church you have been a member of that church?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Or that faith?

Mrs. Paine. Or church; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Ever since?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now you and Mr. Paine, did you take up a residence in Philadelphia as soon as you married?

Mrs. Paine. I had been living in Philadelphia working there, and then when we married I moved to suburban Philadelphia where Michael was living, Paoli, Pa.

Mr. Jenner. His folks live in Paoli, also, do they not?

Mrs. Paine. His mother and stepfather.

Mr. Jenner. And you remained in Paoli until when?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it was summer of '59 we were in the process of moving, didn't complete it until fall of '59.

Mr. Jenner. I see. You moved to where?

Mrs. Paine. To Irving, where we are now, to the present address.

Mr. Jenner. To your present home? And that was in the summer of 1959?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At some later stage we will go into what occurred. In the meantime we have you now in Irving, Tex. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You and your husband purchased the home you have there before you went down.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no; we stayed at a small apartment for several weeks looking around and then rented for a year, and then we purchased the house we have been renting.

Mr. Jenner. So you purchased that and moved in in 1960, is that about right?

Mrs. Paine. We first moved into it in the fall of '59.

Mr. Jenner. You rented it and then purchased it.

Mrs. Paine. The same house; yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right, thank you. You have two children?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. A boy and a girl?

Mrs. Paine. A girl and a boy.

Mr. Jenner. Would you name the oldest of the two.

Mrs. Paine. Sylvia Lynn and the boy—she is now 4. The boy is Christopher and he is 3.

Mr. Jenner. The point I was getting at, your daughter, Sylvia, was born after you reached Texas?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what was her birth?

Mrs. Paine. She was born on November 17, '59.

Mr. Jenner. 1959. Now you are acquainted, became acquainted with Marina Oswald, did you not, in due course in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. No. I first met her and her husband at a gathering of people in Dallas at the home of Everett Glover.

Mr. Jenner. I will get to that in a moment.

Mrs. Paine. Okay. I had not met her before that.

Mr. Jenner. At this time you and your husband were living in your present home in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. In '59.

Mr. Jenner. At the time that you met Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No. Michael moved to an apartment in September of 1962.

Mr. Jenner. There had been some strained relations or difficulties between yourself and your husband Michael. When we shake our heads we don't get it on the record.

The answer to that is "Yes"?

Mrs. Paine. Is "No." I had not met her when there had been some strained relations between me and my husband. It is just we are having difficulties with words.

Mr. Jenner. What I was getting at—there had been some strained relations, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And Mr. Paine had moved to separate quarters. This was in September of 1962, correct.

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. You met Marina for the first time when.

Mrs. Paine. I judge it was the last of February, towards the end of February of 1963.

Mr. Jenner. You were then living with your children in your home at 2515.

Mrs. Paine. West Fifth.

Mr. Jenner. West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex. Now would you please relate the circumstances under which the meeting between yourself and Marina Oswald first occurred in February of 1963.

Mrs. Paine. I was invited to come to the home of Everett Glover to meet a few friends of his, and I judge that was on the 22d of February looking back at my calendar.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please tell us who Mr. Everett Glover was and how you became acquainted with him.

What was the milieu?

Mrs. Paine. I met Mr. Glover at a group gathered to sing madrigals together. These are old English songs where each part has a melody and it was for the enjoyment of reading the music and in harmony, and we often had coffee afterward and would talk.

Mr. Jenner. This included your husband, however, did it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes indeed.

Mr. Jenner. You had a common interest in this?

Mrs. Paine. Madrigal singing?

Mr. Jenner. Madrigal singing?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And went together.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Mrs. Paine. And then Everett knew that I was interested in learning Russian well enough to teach it, and since this gathering was to include some people who spoke Russian, he invited me and he invited Michael also to attend. Michael caught a bad cold and wasn't able to go.

I went.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, could I interrupt you a moment here. Though your husband was living in his own quarters, the relations between you, however, were not so disruptive but what you were friendly, and you were attending these singing groups?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I saw him perhaps once or twice a week for dinner at my house, and we went out to rather more movies than some of my married friends.

Mr. Jenner. There was reasonable cordiality?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. I don't wish to pry into your private life.

Mrs. Paine. If it is pertinent, go ahead.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, there is some necessity. We might touch a little on your private life if you will forgive me for doing it. Mr. Glover, is he a single person?

Mrs. Paine. He was at the time of the party. He has been divorced from his wife. He is now remarried.

Mr. Jenner. Now I interrupted you at the point at which you were relating that Mr. Glover had raised with you, I assume this was a telephone call, that he was going to have some guests. He knew of your interest in the study and the learning of the Russian language and its use?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do I correctly summarize it up to the moment?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You have an entry in your calendar as I recall on this subject. There is a question mark.

Mrs. Paine. I recall it says "Everett?"

Mr. Jenner. May I hand the witness the document?

Mr. McCloy. You may.

Mr. Jenner. This will be Commission Exhibit No. 401. Gentlemen for the purpose of identification of the exhibit, it is Mrs. Paine's calendar which she used in part as a diary and part to record prospective appointments and she surrendered it to the FBI. This is not merely a photostat, it is a picture taken with a camera of that calendar.

(Commission Exhibit No. 401 was marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. May I ask you a question or two about it Mrs. Paine. Did you not go through each of the pages of that calendar with me this morning?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did.

Mr. Jenner. And I asked you, did I not, whether it was all in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. You did.

Mr. Jenner. Except for the identification on the front, the officer who received it from you—he made a notation of the date of receipt—it is all in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And it is in the same condition now, isn't it, as it was when you surrendered it?

Mrs. Paine. It is.

Mr. Jenner. Would you turn to the diary page to which I have reference in connection with the first meeting with Marina Oswald, and that is what month and what page and what date?

Mrs. Paine. It is on the page for February, and the only thing I can——

Mr. McCloy. February what year?

Mrs. Paine. February 1963.

Mr. Jenner. And the day please?

Mrs. Paine. There is a notation on the 22d of February.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, there is a square with the figure 22 in it indicating February 22, 1963. Do you have something written in there?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What is written in there?

Mrs. Paine. It says "Everett's?"

Mr. Jenner. Is that all there is in that square?

Mrs. Paine. That is all.

Mr. Jenner. Would you explain that and how it related to what you are now telling us?

Mrs. Paine. I believe it refers to the invitation to come to his home. As I recall, he telephoned me twice, first to say that they might get together a group of people, hence the question mark. Then he called again to say they were going to have a party, and to make the invitation definite.

Mr. Jenner. Now you used the expression "I believe." Is that your best recollection at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. And I went over this with you this morning and you gave me the same explanation, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now did that event take place?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what is your best recollection as to the day of the month it took place?

Mrs. Paine. I have no other way of guessing when it was except to assume that this notation means it was on the 22d of February.

Mr. Jenner. And that does represent your present best recollection refreshed to the extent it is refreshed by the memorandum before you?

Mrs. Paine. That is right, and of course this first——

Mr. Jenner. What day of the week was that?

Mrs. Paine. That was a Friday.

Mr. Jenner. Friday night. You attended the party did you not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did.

Mr. McCloy. I believe you used the word Friday. I don't believe she did, Friday night. You said Friday night.

Mrs. Paine. It was Friday evening.

Mr. Jenner. Friday evening?

Mrs. Paine. The 22d was Friday. I don't recall.

Mr. McCloy. You used the word "evening"?

Mrs. Paine. It was an evening party.

Mr. Jenner. It was held in Mr. Glover's home was it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, it was.

Mr. Jenner. Where is his home?

Mrs. Paine. At that time he was living in the Highland Park section of Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. How far from your home is that?

Mrs. Paine. Half hour drive.

Mr. Jenner. By what means did you get to Mr. Glover's home?

Mrs. Paine. I drove.

Mr. Jenner. You owned or then had, or maybe you still have a station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Is it the same car still?

Mrs. Paine. It is the same car.

Mr. Jenner. And when you arrived, were either of the Oswalds present?

Mrs. Paine. I am not sure I recall accurately. I think they came a little after I arrived.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give us your best recollection of all the people, couples if you can remember them that way, and then single persons or persons there without their wives or husbands, as the case may be, that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I will try. The Oswalds, two were there, Marina and Lee, Everett Glover, the host, Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt who were the friendship link between the Oswalds and Glover.

Mr. Jenner. Could I interrupt you there? Had you known the De Mohrenschildts?

Mrs. Paine. I had never met them. I have not met them since.

Mr. Jenner. That is the only occasion?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. That you ever saw either Mr. or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You had no conversations, no letters, no contact whatsoever with them either before or after this party?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct, no contact whatsoever before or after. There was a roommate of Everett's. Dirk, I think, I forget the name.

Mr. Jenner. Are you attempting to recall his first name or his last name?

Mrs. Paine. His first name. I may be wrong. It was a young German fellow.

Mr. Jenner. Schmidt?

Mrs. Paine. Do you know the first name?

Mr. Jenner. No, I don't recall the first name.

Mrs. Paine. And he had two roommates, so that is two other single men, and I don't recall their names.

Mr. Jenner. Was each of them there?

Mrs. Paine. They were both there.

Mr. Jenner. There were two roommates.

Mrs. Paine. Two roommates and they were both present at the party. I should remember their names but I don't.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And there was a couple who lived in Irving; again I don't recall the name. I don't believe I have seen any of these people since with the exception of one of the roommates once, and again I don't recall the name.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see the roommate the second——

Mrs. Paine. I may have seen him since. All these people were new to me when I came to the party with the exception of Everett.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see the roommate the second time before or after November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, it was before.

Mr. Jenner. But it is a fact that none of these people who were at the party other than Mr. Glover had you seen or heard of?

Mrs. Paine. Before.

Mr. Jenner. Up to the time that the party was held.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Have you exhausted your present recollection as to the people who were present on that occasion.

Mrs. Paine. I can't get a name. The couple were living in Irving, I recall that, but I don't—I have forgotten their name.

Mr. Jenner. Now the Oswalds arrived shortly after the party began or at least after you arrived?

Mrs. Paine. I believe they came with the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. Jenner. And you were introduced, were you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I was introduced.

Mr. Jenner. By whom?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. It was a very informal gathering. Marina was wearing slacks and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt also was. I doubt pains were taken with the introductions.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me.

Mrs. Paine. I doubt any pains were taken with the introductions.

Mr. Jenner. How long did the party proceed?

Mrs. Paine. It must have started something after 8 o'clock and went until towards midnight.

Mr. Jenner. You have an interest in square dancing and that sort of thing also. Did you do any of that then?

Mrs. Paine. No. We talked and ate.

Mr. Jenner. Did you do any madrigal singing?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. No singing that evening?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now before I get to any specificity with respect to Marina and Lee Oswald, was Russian spoken that night by anybody?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Who else at the party had some facility with Russian in addition to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Just the De Mohrenschildts, both of them, and myself.

Mr. Jenner. And yourself. Did you mention that Mr. Glover had some interest in the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. No, I don't believe he does.

Mr. Jenner. He did not, all right. Were the Oswalds really the center of attention that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I think so, yes, although you can't say that there was a single center for the entire evening. It wasn't like being invited to hear what he had to say. It was much more informal than that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you converse with her during the course of the evening?

Mrs. Paine. Very briefly. She spent the first part of the evening trying to get June to go to sleep.

Mr. Jenner. June is her daughter?

Mrs. Paine. The little girl with her.

Mr. Jenner. She brought her daughter with her did she?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, and then we talked some in the kitchen with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, Marina and I.

Mr. Jenner. And what subject did you ladies pursue?

Mrs. Paine. I really can't remember. The actual conversation with Marina didn't cover much time at all. I saw very little of her that evening.

Mr. Jenner. That evening?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Can you remember any subject you talked to her about in the kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. What subjects were discussed, I assume in the living room or—where everybody was gathered? Do you recall what was being pursued there in the way of conversation.

Mrs. Paine. Part of the time Lee talked with people who were asking him about his trip to Russia. I believe Everett had told me that he had been, so I knew that when I arrived. And the fact that he had gone intending to become a citizen in the Soviet Union. He talked freely and with considerable interest in his subject to the three or four people around him.

Mr. Jenner. Were you gathered in that group?

Mrs. Paine. Part of the time at least I was listening to that. He spoke of the things about the Soviet Union that had displeased him, as for instance the censorship. He knew that it had been going on regarding his letters.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, when you talk in terms of conclusion, we have a little trouble testifying. If you will give us examples such as you just gave us about censorship, could we go back a moment to the conversation about his going to Russia. During the course of that subject, in questions put to him, was anything he listed as to why he went to Russia? May I have a yes or no first?

Do you recall anything like that?

Mrs. Paine. I can't be certain that this is when I first got an idea about why he wanted to go or whether I learned this later.

Mr. Jenner. Does your memory serve you enough so that there is a fair possibility that—it is important to us—was the subject discussed at that gathering?

Mrs. Paine. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. And that is your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now would you give us your best recollection of what he said or what Marina said, but primarily what Mr. Oswald said on that subject. Why did he go to Russia?

Mrs. Paine. I carry the impression, and I think it is recalled from this evening——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. When you say you carry the impression you are saying "It is my present recollection."

Mrs. Paine. All right. That he spoke of himself as a Marxist that evening, that he had read certain Marxist books and thought that the Soviet economic system was superior to ours, and wanted to go to the Soviet Union and live there.

Mr. Jenner. What response was elicited from others at the meeting, agreement?

Mrs. Paine. No; I would not say there was any agreement. People were interested. This is an unusual thing to do. And they were interested in hearing how he found Soviet life, what he thought of it, whether he was pleased or disappointed.

Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough to tell the members of the Commission what Mr. Oswald said in those respects, to the best of your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. He mentioned that he was displeased with the censorship, or at least he commented on it in a way that I took as unfavorable.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, Ma'am.

Did he say he was——

Mrs. Paine. What had happened, yes.

Mr. Jenner. What censorship is he talking about?

Mrs. Paine. He referred to a letter that had been sent to him by Robert Oswald that he later learned, after he had come back to the United States, had been sent. He had not received it. He judged that they had simply stopped it, and he commented that they are more apt to just take a letter than take out a piece of it and then send it on, and that censorship is more obvious.

Mr. Jenner. All right, go on.

Mrs. Paine. I wondered, listening to him, whether he really was——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, please. Before we get to what you wondered about, exhaust your recollection as to what he said, what others might have said on the subjects in his presence about which he talked.

Mrs. Paine. That is all I can think of.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned, also, Mrs. Paine, that there was discussed that evening the subject of his return to America.

Mrs. Paine. Obviously, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Why he returned, was that subject discussed?

Mrs. Paine. Not very much, no. I can't recall any specifics relating to that.

Mr. Jenner. All you can recall, I take it, at the moment, is that there was an allusion to the subject?

Mrs. Paine. Well, he was clearly here, yes. He had come back, and—well, I have to put it in terms of what I guess or what I feel was his reaction. I can't give you a specific recall.

Mr. Jenner. We have no objection to your doing that. We would like to have you first state all you can recall as to what specifically happened in this instance. How did Mr. Oswald treat or regard—what relationship did you gather existed between Marina and her husband, a cordial one as of that occasion, separating from what you learned afterward, but just this initial instance. What impression did you have?

Mrs. Paine. Almost none. There was very little contact between them during the evening. He spoke English to those that were asking them questions. She was either in the bedroom by herself trying to get the little baby to go to sleep, or in the kitchen speaking Russian to the De Mohrenschildts. I listened more than I spoke in that situation.

Mr. Jenner. When Mr. Oswald was in the living room with you ladies and gentlemen, the conversation was in English, was it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, that when Marina returned to the room Russian was spoken, at least by those who had command of the Russian language.

Mrs. Paine. When she was in the same room, there was more than one conversation going on, and in two languages.

Mr. Jenner. When anybody spoke to Marina——

Mrs. Paine. It was in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. It was in Russian. When people spoke with each other other than with Marina, it was in English, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Now, in very short compass what was your impression of Mr. Oswald at that initial party?

Mrs. Paine. I thought he was pleased to be interesting to this group of people and glad to tell them about his experience, to answer their questions. He seemed open and forthright. I did wonder as he was talking about it whether he had come to the conclusion after being in the Soviet Union that their system was inferior.

Mr. Jenner. Inferior to ours?

Mrs. Paine. To ours, or whether he still thought that the Soviet system was a better one. His discussion of the censorship made me feel that he wanted his listeners to know that he was not blind to the defects of the Soviet system, but it did not convince me that he was in favor of the American system. I was left wondering which country he thought conducted itself better.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have an interest in the Oswalds at this moment wholly apart from your interest in the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Were you intellectually curious about them is all I meant.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes. Well, it is most unusual to take such a step as he took.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had some notice in advance of this meeting, Mrs. Paine, of the fact that Mr. Oswald was at least—there had been publications of his having been a defector?

Mrs. Paine. No; I wasn't aware of that.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first learn of that?

Mrs. Paine. Well, a name is always given to someone who goes to the Soviet Union and wants to have citizenship there, isn't it, so I could well have assumed that there had been such, but I really didn't learn about it until after the assassination, I guess. No; I take it back.

There was a reference now.

Mr. Jenner. That evening?

Mrs. Paine. Specific recall. It is coming. The content of Robert's letter to him, as I recall, included a clipping from the Fort Worth newspapers relative to his defection.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, you are talking about a letter of Robert Oswald's?

Mrs. Paine. A letter from Robert to Lee which Lee never got but heard about when he came back to the States.

Mr. Jenner. And that was the subject of discussion that evening?

Mrs. Paine. That came up, so, therefore, I did know that he had been called a defector.

Mr. Jenner. Did Robert refer to this letter or did someone in the meeting refer to the letter?

Mrs. Paine. Lee referred to the letter in discussion of censorship.

Mr. Jenner. But up until that moment, you had not had any prior impression with respect to whether he had been a defector or an attempted defector?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I think, yes; I had some impression of that sort, but it came directly from Lee. He said he went to the Soviet Union and tried to give up his American citizenship, and as I recall, he said that the American embassy did not relinquish his passport, and, therefore, he was not eligible to get Soviet citizenship.

Mr. Jenner. You are remembering more now.

Mrs. Paine. I am.

Mr. Jenner. I am pleased that you are, Mrs. Paine. He did discuss his attempts to obtain——

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. To surrender his passport and to accomplish his Soviet citizenship?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that was openly discussed in this gathering?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. This is Senator Cooper, a member of the Commission, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. How do you do?

Mr. Jenner. This party, I gather, lasted approximately from 7 to 12, did you say?

Mrs. Paine. Eight to eleven-thirty or twelve.

Mr. Jenner. And the party broke up, and you went home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was your overall impression of Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I had very little impression altogether. I did ask for her address.

Mr. Jenner. Why did you do that?

Mrs. Paine. And I asked if I could write her. I wanted to go visit her at her home.

Mr. Jenner. Why?

Mrs. Paine. To talk Russian. She is very hard to find, a person speaking modern Russian, and in fact I know of no other, and this was an opportunity for me to again practice in the language, a rather unusual opportunity, and I was interested in meeting her and getting to know her.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I will go back and develop this lady's interest in the Russian language during the course of the examination, and her prior study of the language up to this point. She did have an abiding interest in the language at this particular point, but I wanted to get at the initial meeting first before anything further.

Mr. McCloy. Very well.

Mr. Jenner. You say modern Russian, that Marina Oswald had a command of modern Russian. Would you please explain to us what you mean by that?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I am not in a position to judge a person, whether a person is speaking modern Russian or not. My language is not that good, but she talked with—this was later, I only assumed that she had—I hoped that she spoke good Russian. I didn't know at that time whether she spoke educated Russian or not. Shall I jump ahead?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I wish you wouldn't. You meant, then, by your expression that you hoped to find that she did speak educated Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; right.

Mr. Jenner. And if she did, that then you might profit or learn from her educated Russian to a greater degree than you knew it as of that time? That was your main interest at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Aside from interests in another lady or human being under those circumstances?

Mrs. Paine. Well, until I then got to know her it was my only interest.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. That is the point I was seeking to make. Did you become better acquainted with the Oswalds thereafter?

Mrs. Paine. I met——

Mr. Jenner. Did you, first, yes or no?

Mrs. Paine. I became better acquainted with Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, if members of the Commission—I am going to pass from this initial event—if you have any questions you would like to put to the witness now rather than my deferring it.

Mr. McCloy. Are there any questions?

The Chairman. Not for me.

Representative Ford. Not at this point.

Senator Cooper. No.

Mr. McCloy. May I ask one? Did Oswald, Lee Oswald on this occasion express any dislike for any elements or aspects of American society?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall anything specific that was said.

Mr. McCloy. He did not indicate to this group why it was that he left the United States to go to Russia originally?

Mrs. Paine. It is hard to say how I formed this opinion, but I gathered that he disapproved of the economic system.

Mr. McCloy. Was there anything more specific than that that he referred to? Did he refer, for example, to any dislike of individuals?

Mrs. Paine. Individuals? No; I am certain there was none.

Mr. McCloy. In government or out of government?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Your impression was that he was motivated to go to the Soviet Union because he didn't like the capitalist system?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. McCloy. And had an affinity for what might be called the Marxist system, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. McCloy. That is all the questions that I have.

Mr. Jenner. Along those lines, Mrs. Paine, did he make any remarks with respect to workers in Russia as compared with the position, the economic position of workers in America? Did he refer to workers as a subject?

Mrs. Paine. I don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to refresh your recollection. You said economics, he thought that the economic situation was superior in Russia. I wonder whether he related it to the ordinary worker rather than the overall system.

Mrs. Paine. I don't remember.

Representative Ford. How well did Marina speak English at the time you made the first acquaintance or first contact?

Mrs. Paine. I was under the impression she spoke no English at all.

Representative Ford. Did she appear to understand any English at that time?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe she understood much of anything.

Mr. Jenner. That was your definite impression?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear her speak any English words that evening?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Senator Cooper?

Senator Cooper. I believe you said a few minutes ago that you were interested in knowing why Lee Oswald left the United States and went to Russia. Did you say that?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I don't recall saying it. I suppose I was curious.

Mr. McCloy. I don't recall that she actually said that. She said it was an interesting situation.

Mrs. Paine. It was unusual, I think I probably said.

Mr. McCloy. She used the word unusual.

Mrs. Paine. An unusual thing to do, certainly.

Senator Cooper. I don't want to say that you said something you didn't, but I got the impression that one of the reasons you were interested in meeting this family was in fact that this man had left the United States and gone to Russia.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. In some sense?

Mrs. Paine. Not in any sense whatever.

Mr. McCloy. As I recall it she did say that this was an unusual situation, and that to some extent developed your interest. This is Mr. Dulles, a member of the Commission.

Senator Cooper. Maybe I could put it this way. Perhaps we could read back and find out, but I thought that you intimated or indicated that you were interested in the fact that this man had gone to Russia.

Mrs. Paine. Perhaps I can answer your question——

Senator Cooper. And it provoked your interest.

Mrs. Paine. I can answer it this way. I was interested at the party to hear something of what he had to say. I was hopeful when I wrote and inquired if I could see Marina where they lived; and knowing that he would be at work, that I would try to go during the week when I would have a chance simply to talk with her.

Senator Cooper. That night he did say that he did not like the capitalist system?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection.

Senator Cooper. Were you interested, then, in finding out what it was about it he didn't like?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. In reference to his experience in Russia or for any other reason?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. You didn't inquire further to have him elaborate on his reasons for not liking the capitalist system?

Mrs. Paine. No. Of course, it is a rather short space of time we are talking about, perhaps 45 minutes or so or less. People were inquiring of him.

Mr. Jenner. But others did inquire on these subjects?

Mrs. Paine. For the most part the other people asked questions, yes.

Mr. Jenner. On the subject that Senator Cooper has inquired about, is that true?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Now perhaps to help your recollection a little bit on that, was this roommate of whom you speak named Volkmar Schmidt?

Mrs. Paine. Volkmar sounds familiar.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall a couple by the name of Richard Pierce, or a gentleman at least by the name of Richard Pierce who attended that meeting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that would be the other roommate, not a couple, he was single, Richard Pierce.

Mr. Jenner. Was there not present a Miss Betty MacDonald?

Mrs. Paine. Which I had completely forgotten about, yes; there was.

Mr. Jenner. And you still are unable to recall the name of the other couple?

Mrs. Paine. I am unable to. Betty MacDonald I do recall lives in the same apartment building as this couple, and it is a long German sort of name, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Had you become acquainted with Mr. Glover through your husband?

Mrs. Paine. Well, you might say so. We both became interested in going to madrigal sings at the same time. My interest in madrigals was developed by Michael, but that was before we ever moved to Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Were you teaching Russian at this time?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You were not? Had you done any teaching of Russian prior to this occasion?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You subsequently did some teaching; have you done some teaching of Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Just this past summer.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. I will get to that in due course. Did you do some translating that evening for Marina?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Paine. I spoke to her very little. I was embarrassed to.

Mr. Jenner. Why was that?

Mrs. Paine. Because my Russian was so poor, and the De Mohrenschildts could both do it all so much better.

Mr. Jenner. Was Mr. Oswald's command of Russian very good, also?

Mrs. Paine. I didn't hear him speak Russian that night at all.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, is that so?

Mrs. Paine. He may have, but I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. He did no translating?

Mrs. Paine. No. For her, no.

Mr. Jenner. For Marina. And on no occasion—he sat there and on none of the occasions did he translate, but, rather, Mr. De Mohrenschildt did the translating?

Mrs. Paine. I don't even believe that was translating. They would address themselves to her in a separate conversation from what was going on from these three or four around him.

Mr. Jenner. So that those who did not understand Russian got nothing from it?

Mrs. Paine. Those who did not understand English got nothing from what he was saying—is that what you mean, or do you mean the other way?

Mr. Jenner. If no one interpreted her in English, translated for her.

Mrs. Paine. No one understood it; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Then whose who didn't understand Russian——

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did not understand what she was saying?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And that went on through the entire evening?

Mrs. Paine. You must understand she was not present for, I would say, more than half of the evening. She was just with her child.

Mr. Jenner. But while she was present.

Mrs. Paine. There was no translation done for her benefit.

Mr. Jenner. Or for the benefit of anybody else who did not understand Russian?

Mrs. Paine. The other way; no. It is a long time ago.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes. Was anything the subject that evening of Mrs. Oswald's family background? Was that discussed?

Mrs. Paine. Of Marina's?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing.

Mr. Jenner. It was not discussed at anytime during that evening, the fact that she was in Russia, she had been educated as, and was, a pharmacist?

Mrs. Paine. That might have been said. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. What was your reaction to the De Mohrenschildts that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I had heard from Everett that they were interesting people, that they had gone on a hiking tour through Mexico taking pictures as they went. I learned or had known from Everett, also, in this one telephone conversation, that he was a geologist, a free lancer.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt seemed somewhat protective toward Marina in the sense of wanting her to understand what was—wanting to talk with her, to include her. Mr. De Mohrenschildt talked about his past life some in English.

Mr. Jenner. His speaking of his past life was in English?

Mrs. Paine. Was in English. I recalled to him his first wife who was also a Quaker. I remember he said that.

Mr. Jenner. When was your next contact with either Marina Oswald or Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote a letter, a note to Marina at the address I had been given, and got a note back saying, "We have moved. This is the new address. Come in perhaps a week." From that time. She wanted to get the house cleaned up before I came.

Mr. Jenner. They lived in Dallas, did they not?

Mrs. Paine. That was in Dallas; yes.

Mr. Jenner. On this February 22 occasion they were then living on Neely Street in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. I believe they moved just in that period that I had the previous address, and as soon as I wrote, the first letter I got back gave the Neely Street address.

Mr. Jenner. You have recorded that, have you not, in your address book?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Which I will follow up in a moment. Do you have a copy of the letter that you wrote to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. No. That initial letter asking if I could come over? I don't believe I do.

Mr. Jenner. Not having——

Mrs. Paine. I have her reply.

Mr. Jenner. You do have a reply?

Mrs. Paine. I have her reply.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have it with you?

Mrs. Paine. She drew a map. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. May I have it, please?

Mrs. Paine. Do you want it right now?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. All right. Wait—no; perhaps I have it at the hotel. I don't think it is here. I didn't think I would be before the Commission today at all.

Mr. Jenner. We will pass that. You can get it tonight.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I am certain I have it.

Mr. Dulles. That was written in Russian, I assume.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes; in my letter to her, bad Russian.

Mr. Jenner. As long as you have the letter I don't want you to attempt to summarize it then, but you did write her a note in which you sought to come see her. She responded advising you of a change of address. There would be some delay, I gather, because she wished to get her home in order, having just moved. And this exchange of letters took place approximately when?

Mrs. Paine. It was early March some time.

Mr. Jenner. 1963?

Mrs. Paine. I think her letter is postmarked the 8th of March.

Mr. Jenner. 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. After that exchange of letters, did you see Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go to her home or did she come to yours?

Mrs. Paine. I drove to her home. There would be no way for her to come.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had another exchange of letters before you went to her home?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. You just waited a few days, guessed how long it would take her to have her home in order, and you visited her, am I correct in my summary?

Mrs. Paine. She suggested Tuesday, as I recall in her letter, but what Tuesday I don't know. If it was written the 8th that would be Tuesday the 12th. There is no notation on my calendar.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have her response to your letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is what I have.

Mr. Jenner. In the hotel. We will get that this evening. Was Mr. Oswald home when you visited her?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. On the next occasion?

Mrs. Paine. He was not.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make a description in your calendar with respect to this visit?

Mrs. Paine. I judge not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you find any in your calendar?

Mrs. Paine. With respect to this visit?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, that calendar is all in your handwriting, isn't it?

Mrs. Paine. It is.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 401 the document that has been given that exhibit number.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 401, was received in evidence.)

Representative Ford. What time of day was this visit, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. It was midmorning, up to lunchtime. She had hoped I could stay through lunch but I wanted to get back so my children could have naps.

Mr. Jenner. Was there anybody at home to care for your children when you made this visit?

Mrs. Paine. I took them.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, you took them.

Mrs. Paine. Therefore, I wanted to get them home to take naps.

Mr. Jenner. What is the driving time from your home in Irving——

Mrs. Paine. Thirty-five to forty minutes.

Mr. Jenner. To the Neely Street address of the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I take it—or was Mr. Oswald home?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Just Marina? And that visit—tell us about that visit, please.

Mrs. Paine. I fear my recollection may meld one or two visits that occurred in March.

Mr. Jenner. It might be a good idea, then,—go ahead and tell us about them in a melded form.

Mrs. Paine. All right. I recall we walked out to a nearby park.

Mr. Dulles. In both cases?

Mrs. Paine. I am not sure.

Mr. Dulles. You think so?

Mrs. Paine. Anyway, I recall walking to the park, and I think this was the first visit, and we sat and talked. It was warm weather, March, in Dallas. And the children played on the park equipment, and we talked, and she told me that she was expecting a baby, and asked me not to talk about it among the Russian community.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Had anything been said on that subject when you first met Marina Oswald the night of February 22?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing? This was your first notice of that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And she told you not—would you repeat that, please?

Mrs. Paine. She told me that she was expecting a child.

Mr. Jenner. She told you not to do what?

Mrs. Paine. Not to tell members of the Russian-speaking community in Dallas. She preferred for it not to be publicly known, so to speak.

Mr. Jenner. Were you in contact with the Russian-speaking community in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say that to her on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it is a contact I could have had. It was reasonable for her to assume I might be.

Mr. Jenner. But you said nothing in response to that. Did you reassure her?

Mrs. Paine. I just said I wouldn't talk about it, that it was up to her to make such an announcement when she felt like it.

Mr. McCloy. May I ask a question at this point?

You said Lee Oswald was not there. A little earlier in your testimony you said you hoped he would not be there.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. McCloy. Why did you say that? Was it because you took any dislike to his being there or was it merely because you wanted exclusive contact with Marina, or both?

Mrs. Paine. I certainly wanted to make the contact with Marina. She had not appeared as a person at all at the party. I couldn't tell what sort of person she was, and I felt meeting alone with her would make an opportunity both to speak the language and to find out what sort of person she was.

Mr. McCloy. Go on. Did you have any further motivation for that wish? Did you take any dislike to him?

Mrs. Paine. Not an active dislike, but I didn't like him. I think we can say that.

Mr. Jenner. And you gathered that impression the evening of February 22?

Mrs. Paine. It is very hard to know whether I gathered it then or in terms of things she told me then after we met, and I will outline them.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; we will get into those.

Mrs. Paine. I would say it was more formed later.

Mr. Jenner. And in your responding to Mr. McCloy's question you were attempting to transport yourself back to that particular occasion and not be affected by the course of events that had taken place in the meantime, am I correct about that?

Mrs. Paine. I tried to.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your ability. Tell us a little more, then, to the extent you have a recollection what occurred and what was said in the park on that occasion.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I recall that we talked, and, as I said, it may be the first visit or it may have been the first and the second melded in my mind. She said that she was expecting a baby. She said that Lee didn't want her to learn English. He was not encouraging her to learn English or helping her with it, that he spoke only Russian to her and to their baby June. And she told me—now, let me say that my calendar does show a notation on the 20th of March, it says, "Marina" and I judge I went again to see her at her home on that day, or brought her to my house, I am not certain which. But I judge, also, that this was the second visit.

Mr. Jenner. I suggest that you might have melded these a moment ago. Now I wish you would keep these apart for the moment.

Mrs. Paine. So far as I can.

Mr. Jenner. And stick with the occasion in the park first and exhaust your recollection.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I was impressed, talking with her in the park, with what I felt to be her need to have a friend. This was virtually our first meeting, but she confided to me something that she didn't want generally known among the Russian segment.

Mr. Jenner. That was her pregnancy?

Mrs. Paine. Of Dallas. She inquired of me, a young woman, about birth control methods, and she said that she felt—well, clearly this pregnancy had surprised her, but she said that she didn't believe in abortion, and didn't want to consider such a course.

Mr. Jenner. Have you exhausted your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. That is all I recall; yes.

I do not recall whether it was this time or the next time, it may well have been the next time, that she told me that——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, please.

Mrs. Paine. All right, sir.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to stick with this. When Mrs. Oswald, this is your first visit, she related to you and said that her husband did not wish her to acquire any command of the English language, what did you say? Did you express yourself in some fashion as to why? Didn't that seem curious to you?

Mrs. Paine. I likely said that——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. It is best you don't guess.

Give us your best recollection.

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that she did most of the talking because she could. My Russian was bad enough that if she talked I was happy.

Mr. Jenner. Did you feel any embarrassment because you were——

Mrs. Paine. Oh, a terrible embarrassment.

Mr. Jenner. You did?

Mrs. Paine. It is a terrible impediment to talking and to friendship.

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would elaborate on that because I am sure the members of the Commission would like to have your mental reaction to what you thought was your limited command of the Russian language and whether it interfered with communication between you.

Mrs. Paine. It interfered very markedly.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate?

Mrs. Paine. I could think of many more things to say than I could think of the words to use in order to say it in Russian. I want to keep jumping ahead to illustrate this. But just it was very difficult for me to communicate.

I understand much more readily than I speak, so that I could understand what she was saying to me easily, especially as she took care to see that she used small words and made herself understood.

But it was very difficult for me just to speak. I could not possibly have reacted to her as I would to someone else in English, as I would if she had been speaking English.

Mr. Dulles. At this time you felt that she could not gain very much if you talked to her in English?

Mrs. Paine. I was certain of that, yes.

Mr. Dulles. But later she had improved, apparently?

Mrs. Paine. After the assassination, to my knowledge.

Mr. Dulles. That was after the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I never knew her to speak English at all.

Mr. Dulles. Or to understand?

I wasn't speaking of just speaking, but about the comprehension of it.

Mrs. Paine. Well, she said to me in November that she has changed from never listening to an English conversation to giving it some of her attention because she is able to pick up some words. You know how if you don't understand anything there is no point even——

Mr. Dulles. I personally got the impression when she was here that she understood a good deal of English.

Mrs. Paine. I believe she does, yes.

Mr. Dulles. But this time she did not have that facility at all?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you not think it was curious that her husband was adverse to her acquiring some facility with the English language?

Mrs. Paine. I thought it was distinctly thoughtless on his part, even cruel.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss it with her to the extent that you could in your limited command of Russian?

Mrs. Paine. I think the easiest thing was to agree with what she was saying about it, agree with what she was saying.

Mr. Jenner. Which was what?

Mrs. Paine. Which is that this wasn't the way it should be and I certainly agreed.

Mr. Jenner. She complained, did she?

Mrs. Paine. She complained, yes.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Did she express an interest, then, in acquiring some facility?

Mrs. Paine. Not against his wishes, no. She didn't express an interest. In learning English through me, for instance.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. She showed no interest unlike the interest you had in her helping you with Russian, she showed no interest at that moment in learning from you some command of the English language?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now you think the second occasion occurring in your calendar entry there was possibly March 20?

Mr. Jenner. And what is the entry?

Mrs. Paine. It says, "Marina".

Mr. Jenner. And that is the only word?

Mrs. Paine. That is all it says.

Mr. Jenner. In that square?

Mrs. Paine. Probably I went again to her home.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Does that refresh your recollection as to anything on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. It does not?

Mrs. Paine. I am guessing, again, that this was the second meeting. I think I went to her home twice before I carried her from her place to my home, which was considerably more of an event, since it was 35 or 40 minutes each way, going twice in one day.

Mr. Jenner. You say carry?

Mrs. Paine. Carry, that is a good Texas term for driving a person in a car.

Senator Cooper. I must say there, that is an old term even in Kentucky. You take some person some place you carry them.

Mrs. Paine. You carry them; yes.

Mr. Jenner. It is an odd expression to me.

Mrs. Paine. I have been in Texas longer than I think.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then there were two occasions when you visited her.

Mrs. Paine. I believe there were two down there, and then I asked her, went to pick her up and brought her to my home and we spent a portion of the day at my home, and I then took her back.

Mr. Jenner. This was at your invitation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; surely.

Mr. Jenner. Had you by this time—let us take the March 20 affair, occasion—had you some feeling of affinity or liking for Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. As a person?

Mrs. Paine. I did feel that she was in a difficult position from the first I met her.

Mr. Jenner. Now, chronologically, would you in your own words, so that I don't suggest anything to you, what was the next occasion?

The next time it was under circumstances in which you went to her home in your station wagon, picked her up and brought her to your home?

Mrs. Paine. It was probably then that she mentioned to me that Lee wanted her to go back to the Soviet Union, was asking her to go back.

Mr. Jenner. He mentioned this subject as early as that, did he not?

Mrs. Paine. This was still in March.

Mr. Jenner. She did?

Mrs. Paine. She did, yes; and said that she didn't want to go.

Mr. Jenner. The Commission is interested in that. Would you please relate it?

Mrs. Paine. She said she did not want to go back, that he asked her to go back, told her, perhaps, to go back.

Mr. Jenner. State just as accurately——

Mrs. Paine. As she described it I felt——

Mr. Jenner. Just what she said now, please.

Mrs. Paine. He told her he wanted to send her back with June.

Mr. Jenner. Alone?

Mrs. Paine. To the Soviet Union. As she described it, I judged that meant——

Mr. Jenner. Please——

Mrs. Paine. A divorce——

Mr. Jenner. Instead of saying as she described it tell us what she said, if you can.

Mrs. Paine. She said that she had written to the Soviet Embassy to ask about papers to go back, and received a reply from them saying, "Why do you want to go back?" And she said she just didn't answer that letter because she didn't want to go back, and that that was where the matter stood at that time.

Mr. Jenner. She had not answered the letter?

Mrs. Paine. The inquiry from the Embassy. She did not answer it.

Mr. Dulles. Did she say whether or not she showed that answer from the Soviet Embassy to her husband?

Mrs. Paine. No; she didn't say.

Mr. Jenner. Did I understand you to say that Marina said to you that she thought that meant a divorce?

Mrs. Paine. I will state again that she felt she was being sent back to stay back, that he would stay here, that this amounted to the end of the marriage for them, but not legally done.

Mr. Jenner. I see. And did she express any opinion of opposition to that?

Mrs. Paine. She particularly was opposed to going back. It was leaving the United States that she was opposed to.

Mr. Jenner. She wanted to stay here, did she?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; very much so.

Mr. Jenner. I ask you this general question, then, Mrs. Paine: During all of your contact with Marina Oswald, did she ever express any view other than that one of wanting to remain in America?

Mrs. Paine. No; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. What did she? Was she affirmative about it?

Mrs. Paine. Very.

Mr. Jenner. Of wanting to stay in this country?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what did you say when she related that her husband wanted her to return to Russia, and she thought to remain in Russia. Did it elicit some curiosity from you?

Mrs. Paine. Curiosity? It elicited anger at Lee that he would presume to drop his responsibilities so preemptorily.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss it with her?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote a letter to her in an effort to gather my words. I couldn't just discuss it with her. My language was not that good. What I wanted to do was offer her an alternative to being sent back, an economic alternative, and I thought for some time and thought over a week about inviting her to live with me. I was alone with my two children at the time, as an alternative to being sent back. If he thought he couldn't support her or didn't care to or whatever reason he had, I simply wanted to say there was an alternative to her going back, that she could stay and live with me if she wanted to. I wrote such a letter, really, to gather——

Mr. Jenner. Do you have it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do. This letter was never sent.

Mr. Jenner. Is that also at the hotel?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know. It may be here. I can look if you want. This letter was never sent and never mentioned to her. I wrote it so that I would have the words before me to use if it seemed appropriate to me to make the invitation, you see, a way of gathering enough of the language, enough Russian, and to say what I wanted to say. And this letter is dated the 7th of April.

Mr. Jenner. The 7th of April?

Mrs. Paine. And I know I spent at least a week thinking about it. I talked it over with Michael before I wrote it, and it is plainly marked "never sent" on the letter. I carried it with me, as I recall I carried it once to the apartment so that if——

Mr. Jenner. To what apartment?

Mrs. Paine. To their apartment on Neely Street, so that if it seemed appropriate I could hand it to her, you see. I could make this invitation at home with time and a dictionary in hand, and then let her read it. It was ever so much easier than just trying to say it.

Mr. McCloy. Though you never delivered it, did you ever speak from it to her?

Mrs. Paine. When she was staying with me the last few days of April and the first week of May, I made, yes, a verbal invitation of that sort, and in the April 7 letter, I have just gone over this correspondence or I wouldn't recall what it said, but——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I think we can take the time to see if you have the letter in your bag.

Mrs. Paine. I am sorry that I feel precipitated into a discussion of this correspondence, and I would rather—no, it is not here—go at it—there are several things I want to say about it. I began to mention it to Mr. Jenner this morning and thought we would have a whole afternoon to talk more.

Mr. Jenner. We will have time tonight, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. You will have time tonight?

Mr. Jenner. I thought Mr. Redlich might look at the letter. I didn't want to delay the Commission. You do have it at hand?

Mrs. Paine. It is not here. It is at the hotel.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to return to something else for the moment, then, first.

What reasons did Marina give, if she gave any, as to why her husband wished her to return to Russia? What did she say on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. She didn't say.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing at all?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. No explanation?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. On that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I meant by that last question to imply that there might have been another occasion subsequently in which the subject was discussed again in which she did state what Mr. Oswald's reasons were, if any?

Mrs. Paine. She never stated any reasons.

Mr. Jenner. Never?

Mrs. Paine. She implied that it was because he didn't want her.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't what?

Mrs. Paine. Want her.

Mr. Jenner. What is the date of this letter, April 7?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. We will take a brief recess.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you turn to your calendar, please. What is the next day, date, in your calendar, in which you have an entry?

Mrs. Paine. Regarding the Oswalds?

Mr. Jenner. Regarding the Oswalds.

Mrs. Paine. It is April 2, Tuesday.

Mr. Jenner. What is the entry?

Mrs. Paine. "Marina and Lee dinner."

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I take it that by this time, that is, up to April 2 you had had several visits with Marina and you had reached the point at which you invited them to your home for dinner?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Now, Michael had never met either. By this time I had talked to him. I had indeed invited them to stay indefinitely.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. And so I wanted him to meet them and invited them both to come to dinner.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, if I seem presumptuous.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you have stated several times, and now you state you inquired of your husband as to whether you could invite Marina to stay with you. Didn't you think that was a little presumptuous on your part to invite a man's wife to come to live with you?

Mrs. Paine. Well, toward Lee it was presumptuous.

Mr. Jenner. Beg pardon?

Mrs. Paine. Presumptuous in relation to Lee.

Mr. Jenner. In relation to Lee?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed it is. Well, I will have to refer again to the letter of April 7 where I said I didn't want to hurt Lee by such an invitation, but that if they were unhappy, if their marital situation was similar to mine, and this is not specifically in the letter, but if he just did not want to live with her, that I would have offered this as an alternative, really to both of them. I didn't want to get into a position of competition with Lee for his wife. I thought about that, and thought he might be very offended.

Mr. Jenner. It is possible he might very well be.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, it is possible he even might have been violent, but I didn't think anything about that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any impression of him up to this moment on this score?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. As a man of temper?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Violence?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None of that?

Mrs. Paine. No. I had met him once.

Mr. Jenner. You invited the Oswalds to dinner on the evening of April 2?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What day of the week was that?

Mrs. Paine. Tuesday.

Mr. Jenner. Did anything occur that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Well, Michael picked them up.

Mr. Jenner. Who did?

Mrs. Paine. Michael picked them up.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband?

Mrs. Paine. At the Neely Street address. Has he talked about that? It didn't come up?

Mr. Jenner. I don't know. I haven't the slightest notion. I was talking with you.

Mrs. Paine. Should I go ahead? I just want to get this first impression into the record somewhere if he hasn't already.

Representative Ford. I think it would be helpful if you gave your impression of his impression.

Mr. Jenner. Of his impression.

Mrs. Paine. All right. This I have learned since the assassination, he didn't give me this impression as at the time we didn't talk that much.

Mr. Jenner. Please, you are not giving us your impression of his impression on this occasion, but rather your impression of what he said to you after the assassination.

Mrs. Paine. You still want it?

Representative Ford. I think it is important.

Mr. Dulles. Let us hear it.

Mrs. Paine. He said—you must understand, that not living together we talked together very little. I am sure he would have given me his impression if we had been having dinner together the next day afterwards, you see. He went over and Marina was not yet ready. He thought that Lee was somewhat thoughtless. While doing absolutely nothing to help her get ready, get the baby's things together, prepare himself, he was quite impatient, thought she should be ready, and gave orders while he himself sat down and talked to Michael, and Michael carried the impression that Lee was somewhat thoughtless.

Mr. Dulles. What did you do? That was about a half hour—what did you do during that period?

Mrs. Paine. I was at the house preparing the dinner.

Mr. Dulles. You were at home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. It has to be my impression of his impressions. I don't recall the evening too well, the evening of the second. I do recall we certainly had dinner together. I can't recall what the predominant language was. Lee and Michael, of course, talked in English. Not wanting to exclude her entirely from the conversation, I made opportunity to talk with her in Russian after the meal was over. She and I did the dishes and talked in Russian, and we were in the kitchen while Michael was talking to Lee in English in the living room, so I do not know what was said then between the two of them.

Mr. Jenner. How did your husband get along with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Well, you probably have something on that.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression? I want your impression of how your husband got along.

Mrs. Paine. Okay. He was initially very interested in learning what sort of man this was who had taken such a dramatic and unusual step to go to the Soviet Union and attempt to renounce his citizenship. He thought here is a person that must have thought things out for himself, a very individualistic person, not a follower of the masses, and he wanted to hear what the ideology was that led Lee to this step.

Michael has told me that he very soon felt that there wasn't much ideology or thought, foundation. That Michael had thought he might be able to learn from this man something and find at least good thinking going on or inquiry, but he didn't find it. He rather found very rigid adherence to a few principles such as the principle of the capitalist exploiting the worker, and that this was a great moral failing of the capitalistic society. Michael's own feeling was that Lee's view of morality was very different from Michael's.

Mr. Jenner. In what respect, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. Michael recalls having—now, this is later. This is not that evening. Did you expect it was? This is answering your question of Michael's impression of Lee.

Mr. Jenner. I wanted his initial impression.

Mrs. Paine. All initial impressions. Well, I have passed that. I have gone considerably past it, in fact.

Mr. Jenner. I see. How many times had you seen Marina up to this moment, that is, up to April 2?

Mrs. Paine. It was two or three times besides the initial party in February.

Mr. Jenner. And your best recollection is that this was a nice, pleasant evening, and that was about all?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did your husband take the Oswald's home that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. This is the second. When was the next occasion that you had contact with either of the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. There is a notation of the eighth of April. I am looking on my calendar, I have no other way of knowing, and one also on the tenth which has an arrow going to the eleventh.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to ask you a little bit about that before you go into it. Would you describe for the Commission now the condition, the physical condition, of your calendar there?

Mrs. Paine. Physical?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. There is a square, and in the square there is written something.

Mrs. Paine. "Marina" is written this time in Russian. I am improving, it seems.

Mr. Jenner. In Russian. It is in the square dated April 10.

Mrs. Paine. I am talking now about the square on April 8. There is a notation "Marina".

Mr. Jenner. Is that all there is in that square?

Mrs. Paine. That is all that is in that square.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Then the only thing that appears in the square for April 10 is the name "Marina" in Russian, and an arrow pointing, an arrow from it pointing, to April 11.

Mr. Jenner. Now, go back, if you will, to April 8.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Does that refresh your recollection or stimulate you as to whether you had any contact with Marina on that day or whether it was prearranged and what the occasion was?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly, it says that there had been an arrangement to get together. Whether we did I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. I thought you had read everything that appeared in that square. Is there more than just the word "Marina" in the square?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. That is my recollection. But that refreshes your recollection in turning that, that was a prearranged meeting?

Mrs. Paine. Well, all of these were, since there was no way over the telephone.

Mr. Jenner. Is your recollection sufficiently refreshed to state whether the meeting was a visit by you to her or she to you?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Does it have a relation to the letter that you say that you prepared dated April 7, which is the day before?

Mrs. Paine. I might have taken it that day, I don't know. Yes; it is entirely possible. I hadn't thought about it.

Mr. Jenner. But anyhow my mentioning those two events together, does that refresh your recollection or stimulate it more specifically on the subject?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. It does not. You have no recollection beyond the fact that on April 8 you have an entry with the word "Marina." Is that written in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The word "Marina" in Russian, it doesn't stimulate you in any respect, does not stimulate your recollection?

Representative Ford. At the time of the dinner at your home on April 2, following that or during that time, do you recollect any discussion about General Walker between your husband and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't recollect any such discussion.

Representative Ford. That night?

Mrs. Paine. If there was any it would have had to have been in the living room while I was talking to Marina in Russian in the kitchen. I didn't hear any reference to it.

Representative Ford. You didn't hear any discussion that evening between your husband and Lee Oswald about General Walker?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Ford. Did your husband ever tell you subsequently of any such discussion?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall it. There was one reference, but that was later.

Representative Ford. That was later. Do you recall when?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. It would be the Friday after U.N. Day, October the 4th.

Representative Ford. That was October 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. And this was April 2d?

Mrs. Paine. 1963.

Representative Ford. 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall any discussion of General Walker at all with Marina or in the presence of Marina or with Lee Oswald or in his presence in your home or their home or even out in the parkway on the subject of General Walker up to April 11, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Any discussion between yourself and your husband on that day?

Mrs. Paine. No; none that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Do you subscribe to a newspaper?

Mrs. Paine. At that time I subscribed to the Irving local paper.

Mr. Jenner. Is that an evening or a morning paper?

Mrs. Paine. At that time it was a morning paper.

Mr. Jenner. Morning paper. Do you have a recollection of being aware in the edition of April 11 of an attack on General Walker the night before?

Mrs. Paine. It is more likely that I heard it on television. I think I must have heard it.

Mr. Jenner. You have a television and a radio?

Mrs. Paine. We get news from the television.

Mr. Jenner. And you were aware of the attack on General Walker the evening of April 10. Did you see Marina Oswald on the 11th?

Mrs. Paine. I can only guess so judging from these marks on my calendar.

Mr. Jenner. We would like your very best recollection, please, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall; I just don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. You just don't have any present recollection that you did see her on the 11th or you didn't? You just have no—you are blank?

Mrs. Paine. I can only guess from the calendar, that is all.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that entry you have no recollection whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Dulles. If you had seen her would it have been at her house, at her apartment?

Mrs. Paine. I don't even know that.

Mr. Dulles. Wouldn't you have remembered four trips back and forth?

Mrs. Paine. I remember that I made such trips, but which day it is, it is very difficult to know.

Mr. Dulles. I see. But you think—have you had a recollection about seeing her at this time, without pinpointing it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion between you and Marina on the subject of the General Walker incident?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. I am trying to recall now when she first told me that Lee was out of work. The next note I have of having seen them, and you must understand this calendar by no means tells everything I have done or would even be accurate about what I have done on account of what has happened, but at some point she told me that he was out of work.

Mr. Jenner. Was it some point near the time we are now discussing?

Mrs. Paine. Near the time we are now discussing. I am trying to get some content in order to answer the question of what happened, did I see her, what happened. The next date I have down for seeing her is a picnic on the 20th of April.

Mr. Jenner. Had she told you——

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall it having been that long, but it probably was, between the 11th and the picnic. It was before the picnic she told that he was out of work and had been for a few days before he told her.

Now, you probably know when he was out of work, but I don't, when he lost his job. So I am judging that possibly this was mentioned on the 11th that he was out of work, because we did plan to have a picnic on the 20th which included Lee, but it could have been even that day that she told me that he was out of work and had been for some time.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any day on or about this time, the 10th or 11th or 12th, within those 3 days, that you saw Marina, where your attention was arrested by her being upset or disturbed?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In any fashion?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I notice in your calendar and entry April 16, "St. Marks open again 12 noon." Is that the school your children attend?

Mrs. Paine. No, they are both preschool age. It must have been an Easter—my children are preschool age.

Mr. Jenner. What was the occasion of your making that entry?

Mrs. Paine. I probably wanted to visit the class.

Mr. Jenner. What class?

Mrs. Paine. A language class. This is a school at which I subsequently taught. Last summer I taught at St. Marks School.

Mr. Jenner. You were visiting the class in advance of your teaching?

Mrs. Paine. So I probably wanted to visit—no, just any language class there, and inquired, I judge, you see, you will find on Good Friday no school, too, the 12th. So I was marking when the Easter vacation was for St. Marks in order to make plans sometime later to go and visit.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Would you return to April 2, that dinner. Is that entry "dinner at 8"? I couldn't quite figure out——

Mrs. Paine. I believe that is the 7.

Mr. Jenner. Seven. Was anything said that night about Lee Oswald's work?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing.

Mr. Jenner. About his job?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I asked him how could I reach them if I had to call off a get-together. I had no way of telephoning Marina. If the child got sick how would I tell her I am not coming. So I said could I have his telephone at work in order to reach them through him if I felt it necessary some time, and he wrote down for me the address and telephone number of the place where he worked. This was on the 2d of April.

Mr. Jenner. And that, I will turn to that, if I might, and that will be Commission Exhibit 402, and we have a like photograph of the exhibit. Is all of that exhibit in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I have just said he wrote down Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Mr. Jenner. There is one entry that is in his handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Give us the letter page of that, will you?

Mrs. Paine. The letter page, "O" for Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. "O" for Oswald. The entry Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall was written by Mr. Oswald; all other entries on that page are in your handwriting; is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Are all other entries in the entire address book in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Did we go over it? What did I say?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, we did this morning.

Mrs. Paine. I would guess so. I don't recall. Did we say so this morning? I will have to look it over again.

Mr. Jenner. I am not permitted to testify, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. All right. You want me to look right now? I usually write the addresses down myself, so it would be quite unusual for someone else to.

Mr. Jenner. Is this address book in the same condition now as it was when you gave it to the police?

Mrs. Paine. I did not give it to the police, they took it, and I didn't know it was gone until later that day. It is in the same condition except it has been through the finger-printing process.

Mr. Jenner. I am particularly interested——

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is all in my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. I am particularly interested in the entries on the page lettered "O," and I want to especially ask you whether that page is in the same condition now as it was when it was——

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask the witness why there are certain lines half horizontal, half perpendicular there, certain of these?

Mrs. Paine. It means it is an old address, no longer applicable.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Dulles, you were referring to the page lettered "O"?

Mr. Dulles. That is correct; yes.

Mr. Jenner. I had digressed or interrupted at that point because you, for the first time, made reference to an entry in your address book made by Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the document identified as Exhibit 401.

Mr. McCloy. Where is that——

Mr. Jenner. 402 rather. That is the address book.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibit No. 402 was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. And you were relating that you inquired as to how you could reach them if you had to reach them, and Mr. Lee Oswald wrote——

Mrs. Paine. His work, the name of the company and the telephone number.

Mr. Jenner. I take it they did not have a telephone?

Mrs. Paine. They did not; no.

Mr. Jenner. Did they ever have a telephone even when they were in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. No; they did not.

Mr. Jenner. When they came back again to Dallas, they did not?

Mrs. Paine. They did not.

(At this point in the proceedings Senator Cooper left the Commission hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, was the April 2d occasion the second time that you had seen Lee——

Mrs. Paine. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Oswald? You had not seen him in the interim?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. When next did you see him?

Mrs. Paine. I next saw him on the 20th of April at a picnic at a park near where they lived on Neely Street.

Mr. Jenner. In between certainly the 2d of April and, possibly, in that period from the 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th, let us take that period up, until the time of the 20th, did you see Marina Oswald in between?

Mrs. Paine. Did you say between the 2d——

Mr. Jenner. Between the 8th and 10th through the 20th.

Mrs. Paine. I guess not; between the 11th or so and the 20th.

Mr. Jenner. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. So far as I know, no.

Mr. Jenner. How did you communicate with her about the picnic?

Mrs. Paine. Probably by letter.

Mr. Jenner. By a letter. Do you have that letter?

Mrs. Paine. I have—I don't know if I have it. I have a letter that closes "October 20th" in my hand, a scratch note.

Mr. Jenner. Could I look at that correspondence this evening?

Mrs. Paine. At the same time.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Then the next occasion was when you had the picnic on the 20th, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I notice in that entry what looks to me like "Miss Mary 7:15." What is the significance of that?

Mrs. Paine. That is probably going out in the evening. It had no relationship with the picnic at all. It has a relationship with a dinner group which is at the time, you see the line "dinner group—7:15 Miss Mary," who is a babysitter.

Mr. Jenner. That entry has nothing to do with the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Without elaborating, please, Mrs. Paine, what would the subjects of discussion between you and Marina and Mr. Oswald have been at the picnic?

Mrs. Paine. At the picnic?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. He spent most of his time fishing. We saw almost nothing of him and heard virtually nothing from him. I was impressed with his unwillingness to be sociable really in this situation. He came to eat when it was time to, and complained about the food.

Mr. Jenner. Did he complain about the food?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was your husband present at this picnic?

Mrs. Paine. No; he was not.

Mr. Dulles. Did you supply the food?

Mrs. Paine. No; Marina had cooked it. He complained about it. He caught a fish, as I recall, and took it home to be cleaned. I hardly know who would clean it.

Representative Ford. Who did clean it?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know. I left about that time.

Mr. Jenner. What discussion occurred between you and Lee Oswald, if any, with respect to his life in Russia on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any conversation with him other than some pleasantries?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe so. I can't even think of the pleasantry.

Mr. Dulles. As I understand it, as you were sitting there, the picnic took place in the park——

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. What was he doing?

Mrs. Paine. He was way over at the lake fishing.

Mr. Dulles. He was over fishing at the lake?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did any further discussion occur between you and Marina on that occasion, or on any interim occasion, of Mr. Oswald's desire to have her return to Russia or the fact that she did not wish the Russian emigré group to know she was pregnant and was about to have a child?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically. I did feel that it wasn't a particularly happy occasion. I don't recall it with lightness.

Mr. Jenner. Was he out of work at that time or not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he was out of work. I knew at that time he was out of work. Whether I found out that morning or the previous time I had seen her I don't recall. I only recall when she said he was out of work she also said he had been out of work for a week or a few days before he told her.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to have you draw on your recollection as closely as you can. Did you learn of his being out of work from him or from Marina?

Mrs. Paine. From her.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say on that subject as to whether he was discharged or whether he had left his employment, or did she say anything in that area?

Mrs. Paine. I judged he had been discharged.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your best recollection of what she said.

Mrs. Paine. Do you want something else?

Mr. Jenner. Give me your best recollection of what she said, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall it that closely.

Mr. Jenner. You next have an entry on April 24 reading "Lee and Marina." Do you find it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was that a meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where was that held?

Mrs. Paine. That was to be a visit at the apartment on Neely Street.

Mr. Jenner. At their apartment?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did it take place?

Mrs. Paine. I arrived and found that he was packed to go to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Was this a surprise to you?

Mrs. Paine. This was a distinct surprise.

Mr. Jenner. Had there been some communication between you and the Oswalds about your visiting them on the 24th of April?

Mrs. Paine. It had been arranged that I would come over to visit as much as these other visits had been arranged, just with Marina to talk.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any visit with Marina between the 20th of April and the 24th?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. Had you arranged on the 20th to visit on the 24th?

Mrs. Paine. Probably.

Mr. Jenner. That is your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What time of day did you arrive, or night?

Mrs. Paine. Mid-morning, perhaps around 10.

Mr. Jenner. And then you found him packed or packing to leave?

Mrs. Paine. He was fully packed. I was evidently expected. I and my car, because he asked if I could take these bags and duffel bags, suitcases, to the bus station for him.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Where he would buy a ticket to go to New Orleans, and he said he had not been able to——

Mr. Jenner. What he said to you is what I am interested in.

Mrs. Paine. That he said——

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. He said he had not been able to find work in Dallas, around Dallas, and Marina suggested going to New Orleans, which is where he had been born.

Mr. Dulles. He said she had suggested?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina present now while he is relating this to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Jenner. She was present. Was he speaking in Russian or in English?

Mrs. Paine. I think he must have been speaking in English when he asked me to take the things to the bus station and explained that he was going to look for work.

Mr. Jenner. Your best recollection is that this was in English?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. It could well have been in Russian also. He didn't like to speak English to me. He preferred to speak Russian.

The Chairman. To you?

Mrs. Paine. To me; yes.

Representative Ford. Did he ever indicate why?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I think you said to me this morning, and please correct me if my recollection is not good, that he always spoke to you in Russian.

Mrs. Paine. With, perhaps, a couple of rare exceptions, yes, he spoke to me in Russian. When I tried to teach him to drive I tried to explain to him, proceeded to explain to him in English.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, you tried to teach him to do what?

Mrs. Paine. To drive. This is later.

Mr. Jenner. Drive, yes.

Mrs. Paine. But he would answer me in Russian, which is a way of getting the person to go back to Russian. But I couldn't explain driving in Russian, so I did it in English.

Mr. Jenner. That incident, Mrs. Paine, is very important, and we will get to that at a later stage as to your efforts to teach him to drive.

Going back to this 24th of April, there was here, this was, a complete surprise to you. You arrived at the home and this man was all packed to go to New Orleans.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any discussion with Marina about her coming to live with you of which she was aware prior to this occasion on April 24?

Mrs. Paine. I had discussed with her the possibility of her coming at the time the baby was expected.

Mr. Jenner. When was the baby expected?

Mrs. Paine. Mid-October.

Mr. Jenner. But there had been no discussion up to April 24, to your recollection, even about your inviting Marina to come to live with you?

Mrs. Paine. You mean on a more permanent basis, other than to stay when the baby was due?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; which would be in the fall of the year.

Mrs. Paine. That is right. There was none.

Mr. Jenner. There was no discussion about her coming to live with you in the spring around about this time?

Mrs. Paine. I remember feeling when I arrived that they were, and probably appropriately, making their own plans, and wondering whether I should have already made this invitation, but I had not.

Mr. Jenner. You say they were already making their own plans; are you seeking to imply that they had some notion she might join you?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't think there was any notion. I am trying to say I recall that I hadn't made that invitation at that time.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection it is now that you had not discussed the subject with Marina up to this occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Not the subject of staying on with me as an alternative to going back to Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Only staying with you in the fall?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When the baby came?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say, Mrs. Paine—excuse me. First, have you exhausted your recollection of everything that Lee Oswald said on that occasion when you arrived there?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say?

Mrs. Paine. I said, yes, I would take his bags to the station if he wanted me to.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And we then did.

Mr. Jenner. You just left?

Mrs. Paine. Take them to the bus station to be checked.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. Paine. Marina went, and he checked the baggage. It was rather more than he could have carried on the city bus, and I am sure he preferred me to a taxi because I don't cost as much.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't cost anything?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. And he then bought a ticket, he bought a ticket for Marina, I mean I was thinking, while he was in the bus station, and suggested that it would be a very difficult thing for a pregnant woman with a small child to take a 12-hour, 13-hour bus trip to New Orleans, and suggested that I drive her down with June.

Mr. Jenner. You volunteered this?

Mrs. Paine. I volunteered this, and suggested further that instead of her staying at her—at the apartment, as was planned at that time, while waiting to hear from him, that she come and stay at my house where he would reach us by phone, and where she would have someone else with her while she waited to hear if he got work.

Mr. Jenner. This was the conversation between you and Lee Harvey Oswald? Was it in English or in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Probably in Russian. I would think so, because I wanted her to understand.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina along?

Mrs. Paine. She was present.

Mr. Jenner. She was present; I see.

Representative Ford. This took place where, in the car?

Mrs. Paine. Probably in the bus station—in the car near the bus station. He then took the bus ticket back, returned it, and got the money.

The Chairman. Ticket for her?

Mrs. Paine. Ticket for her.

Mr. Dulles. Her bus ticket?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and he left some money for her for buying things in the next few days before she could join him.

Mr. Jenner. Did he get on the bus then and depart?

Mrs. Paine. No; the bus left in the evening. We all drove back to the apartment after he had checked the baggage, and he helped load the baby things and things that Marina would need during the next few days into my car, and we emptied what was left there of the things that were in the apartment, and which belonged to them, and then drove, I drove with Marina and June and my two children back to my house, and he stayed at the apartment. He was scheduled to leave by bus, city bus, and an interstate bus that evening.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then, Mrs. Paine, that your impression was that it was contemplated, when you arrived at the Oswalds that morning, that Mrs. Oswald, Marina, and her child June, and her husband, Lee, were contemplating going to New Orleans together that day?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Am I wrong?

Mrs. Paine. That is wrong. She was to have stayed in the apartment.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. And wait to hear from him.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. If they had been going together that would not have been the hardship on her, but that traveling alone was, I felt.

Representative Ford. Why did he buy the ticket for her at the——

Mrs. Paine. To leave with her so that she could follow him when he called, to leave the ticket in her hand as a means of her following him. I haven't been clear.

Mr. Jenner. It was a little indefinite.

Mr. Dulles. I thought the ticket had been redeemed; then he bought another ticket?

Mrs. Paine. He bought a ticket for himself and a ticket for her.

Mr. Dulles. You said, "I will take her," and then he redeemed the ticket for her, and gave her the cash?

Mr. Jenner. Gave her some money?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

The Chairman. But the ticket that he did buy for her——

Mrs. Paine. Was to have been left with her.

The Chairman. Was for a subsequent date?

Mrs. Paine. For a subsequent date following.

The Chairman. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. That is it.

Mr. Jenner. That was clear to you on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. That was clear.

Mr. Jenner. She was scheduled to join him subsequently?

Mrs. Paine. She was scheduled to join him subsequently if he did find work. If he found no work there would have been no point to her making the trip.

Mr. Jenner. Is this a discussion or is it your rationalization?

Mrs. Paine. It was clearly said she would stay.

Mr. Dulles. I am puzzled. I am puzzled, Mr. Jenner, about this ticket business.

Mr. Jenner. I am, too.

Mr. Dulles. A ticket was bought for her on the theory that she was going with him first.

Mr. McCloy. No.

Mr. Dulles. That is where I got off the track. He bought two tickets, then why was the ticket redeemed?

Mr. McCloy. Because it was made clear by Mrs. Paine that she was going to take Marina down in her own car.

Mr. Dulles. But only going to stay with you during the period until he got work, hence she wouldn't need a ticket. You were going to drive her down?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You would drive her down all the way to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. In either case it was planned to delay going.

Mr. Dulles. She would go down if he got work, but she would not need a ticket if she stayed with you. Therefore, the ticket was redeemed.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But I did not think of this or suggest it until after he had already bought the ticket.

Representative Ford. May I ask this, Mrs. Paine? In the things that were packed when you arrived, or things that were packed while you were present——

Mrs. Paine. Nothing was packed while I was present. It was already packed.

Representative Ford. Everything was already packed by the time you got there?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Were any of the things for Marina or Lee packed?

Mrs. Paine. They were all packed. I don't understand your question. All of the things he wanted to take with him to the bus station were already packed.

Representative Ford. Well, in that group of things which were so packed, were there things for Marina and Lee?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. I mean Marina and June, excuse me?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Some of their things were among those things, yes, I judge so, clothing. The things that remained were a crib, playpen, baby stroller, some dishes, some clothing.

Representative Ford. The things you would not ordinarily take on a bus, however.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it would be very difficult. That was another one of the things that motivated me to suggest driving her down. I thought sending these by train, with the risk of their getting strayed or—it would be difficult, trying, for her to try to handle them, or convey them with her by bus—that would have been worse.

Representative Ford. But there were some things that were packed in the things that Lee was going to take with him that would include things——

Mrs. Paine. That belonged to——

Representative Ford. To—to Marina and to June?

Mrs. Paine. I would judge so simply by what remained. Surely it was not the total sum of her clothing and June's clothing.

Representative Ford. Which could lead a person to the conclusion that at one stage of their discussion Marina was going to accompany Lee to New Orleans.

Mrs. Paine. Not from the time I arrived.

Representative Ford. From the station.

Mrs. Paine. It was clear she would stay up in the apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Up to that time it appeared to you from what was in the duffelbag——

Mrs. Paine. I think he was carrying all he could to lighten her burden. In other words, if and when she followed, he was carrying all he could.

Mr. Jenner. Representative Ford is interested in this, Mrs. Paine——

Mr. Dulles. I am puzzled, too.

Mr. Jenner. When you arrived at the Oswald apartment that morning, Lee Oswald had duffelbags packed and some——

Mrs. Paine. Suitcases.

Mr. Jenner. Suitcases. He had in those suitcases and in the duffelbag some of the apparel for Mrs.—Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Of course, I did not see it. I have to guess what was in it.

Mr. Jenner. But, from your knowledge of the household and afterwards, this was at least your impression?

Mrs. Paine. That they must have included some of her things.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Which, in turn, might lead to the inference that, therefore, they contemplated at that moment from what he was taking that Marina was ultimately to join him in New Orleans.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes; absolutely.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Was that your question?

Representative Ford. Or even at one point in the process of packing, she and June were going to accompany him to New Orleans on the bus.

Mrs. Paine. I didn't have that impression, no. No, he was going and happened to stay with an aunt and uncle where he could live without much charge. For her to come would have been quite a greater expense, and a risky one without a job, nothing coming in, so he was hoping that he could stay with the aunt and uncle while he looked, and then if he got remunerative work, get an apartment and call her to come, too.

Representative Ford. If that is so, and let us assume that is so——

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. It puzzles me that he went into the bus station and bought two tickets, one for himself and one for her.

Mrs. Paine. How would she get there?

Representative Ford. Well, eventually she might have to go by bus. But why should he at this time make an investment in a bus ticket when there was no certainty——

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Representative Ford. When she might follow? This is what puzzles me.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Well, I can only guess about this. I judge from his having done this that he certainly intended for her to follow, and it is also possible she couldn't have asked for a bus ticket herself. If he had written her and said, "Don't come to New Orleans, come to Nashville," and he had said, "That is where I have got my job," he might have felt she would not know how to go and get such a bus ticket.

Mr. Dulles. Is it also possible he may not have wanted to leave that amount of money with her to buy a ticket and preferred to leave her a ticket rather than cash?

Mrs. Paine. This is possible, this is possible.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Now, Mrs. Paine, in light of that speculation, tell us what discussion there was on the subject.

Mrs. Paine. I think I have, that while he was in the bus station I thought how difficult it would be for her to travel alone with the baby, and all the things——

Mr. Jenner. And you raised that yourself for the first time at that point?

Mrs. Paine. Then I said she might stay with me while waiting to hear from him, and that I would drive her down if we did hear that he had gotten work.

Mr. Jenner. Had there been prior discussion that it was contemplated that, if he obtained a position, she would join him in New Orleans, or wherever he obtained a position.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. We had already talked about that at the apartment.

Mr. Jenner. And that had been discussed with her present?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And discussed in Russian so that she could have understood the discussion?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, the staff is interested in Lee Harvey Oswald's luggage.

Mrs. Paine. What?

Mr. Jenner. His luggage.

Mrs. Paine. Luggage.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please, to the best of your recollection, tell us what pieces of luggage he had on that occasion, what they looked like, their shape and form?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. He had two large marine duffelbags with his name on them, and probably his Marine serial number. It was marked with a good deal of white paint. It stood quite high.

Mr. Jenner. Were they up-ended when you say high? You mean standing on end, they were high?

Mrs. Paine. Standing on their end they would come well above this table.

Mr. Jenner. I see. About 40 inches?

Mrs. Paine. Something like that; I would guess so.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, I am interested in just that. Would you go over to the drawing board and move your hand, judge from the floor, and stop right there? We will measure that later.

Mrs. Paine. Understand I saw those two later in my garage.

Mr. Jenner. I understand, and I will get to that. That is just about 45 inches, and there were two of them?

Mrs. Paine. There were two of them. Do you want anything about the rest of the luggage? Does that interest you the most?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, I am interested, and I would like to stick with the duffelbags for a moment. Was there any appearance as to either duffelbag, which, to you, would indicate some long, slim, hard——

Mrs. Paine. I assume them to be both full of clothes, very rounded.

Mr. Jenner. I don't wish to be persistent, but was there anything that you saw about the duffelbags that lead you at that time to even think for an instant that there was anything long, slim and hard like a pole?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Or a gun, a rifle?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. No? Nothing?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing. I did not move these bags.

Mr. Jenner. To the extent you saw them is all I am inquiring about. You did not touch them, you did not lift them, but you saw them.

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. There appeared—the entire circumference of these bags which you could see was smooth?

Mrs. Paine. Well, smooth, bumpy, but irregular.

Mr. Jenner. But no stick, no hard surface. Now, what about the diameter of these bags, these duffelbags, what would you say it was?

Mrs. Paine. About like this, 15, 18, 20 inches across.

Mr. Jenner. Eighteen, twenty inches across?

Mrs. Paine. Probably more than that.

Mr. Jenner. This is 15 inches.

Mrs. Paine. About like this; a little more than 15, probably.

Mr. Jenner. About 18 inches. Now, how many pieces of luggage in addition to the two duffelbags?

Mrs. Paine. Quite a few. There were probably three suitcases.

Mr. Jenner. Three suitcases?

Mrs. Paine. Or more. A small radio bought in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. I want to stick with the luggage.

Mrs. Paine. All right.

Mr. Jenner. Three suitcases?

Mrs. Paine. I think so, two or three, and a large softsided suitcase, I don't know what to call it. It zips around the side.

Mr. Jenner. Zipper case?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, made of canvas.

Mr. Jenner. We would like to have you describe that zipper case.

Mrs. Paine. It is green——

Mr. Jenner. I am interrupting you, I am sorry. Were there any other pieces of luggage, first?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. So there were two or three or possibly four, is that true, suitcases?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And there was a zipper case?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Describe this zipper case to us first.

Mrs. Paine. It stood about so high [indicating].

Mr. Jenner. So high is 15 inches, about 30 inches long?

Mrs. Paine. Not quite, about that long [indicating].

Mr. Jenner. It was a generous sized zipper case?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. With generally green canvas and leather, dark-colored leather.

Mr. Jenner. Black or brown—do you remember the color?

Mrs. Paine. Dark brown, I guess, or black, certainly very dark.

Mr. Jenner. It was a generous sized one, was it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did it appear to be well packed?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe each of the three suitcases now, with particular reference to the staff being interested in whether they were rectangular, whether they were hard boarded types of things, or whether they were canvas or soft?

Mrs. Paine. I don't remember how many there were. I recall they had a hard composition kind of suitcase such as you don't buy here, and I judge they were bought in the Soviet Union. I think there may have been two of those.

Mr. Jenner. Was any one of them rectangular in shape?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. That was rectangular.

Mr. Jenner. The one you specifically have in mind, he did have a rectangular one?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what color was it?

Mrs. Paine. Dark, blackish green, or dark brown, something of this nature.

Mr. Jenner. Anything else you can think about it in the way of description?

Mrs. Paine. I think it had—it was reinforced, corners, with rivets, or bolts, of something to hold it, hold the corners on it.

Mr. Dulles. How long was this rectangular suitcase?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. In fact, I can't recall whether it was one or two, but something like that, normal suitcases.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, may I have your permission to approach the witness?

Mr. McCloy. And take the measurements?

Mrs. Paine. And take the measurements.

Mr. McCloy. The witness may be approached.

Mrs. Paine. That or larger, I would say.

Mr. Jenner. You are now describing the length of the rectangular suitcase, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that would be 21½ inches?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I am brief in my recollection, a normal rectangular shape here.

Mr. Jenner. Width, that is the side, you mean?

Mrs. Paine. That is the whole thing. That is looking at the top. How high it is.

Mr. Jenner. No; wide.

Mrs. Paine. I am filling it out. This would be the width then from here to here, possibly more.

Mr. Jenner. Fourteen inches?

Mrs. Paine. I am not sure I am recalling one or two at the same time. I have to be under oath, and giving you details on things I don't recall that well.

Mr. Jenner. All we are seeking is your best recollection.

Mrs. Paine. All right, that is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Twenty-one and a half times fourteen, and how high was it?

Mrs. Paine. About so, 6, about 6.

Mr. Jenner. I said high. Was this lying flat on its side when you saw it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, all these things again I saw in the fall, so it is a mixed recollection.

Mr. Jenner. I am going to get as to what you saw in the fall, but it is important to us as to what you saw on this occasion.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I particularly recall the duffels because they are unusual, and I recall this bag being, I judge Russian make rather than American, it was a large zipper bag.

Mr. Jenner. And Mrs. Paine, you do recall that zipper bag on this occasion?

Mrs. Paine. I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. And there was at least one, if not more than one, rectangular——

Mrs. Paine. I can't be certain of the zipper bag.

Mr. Jenner. Hard-sided suitcase?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; hard-sided suitcase. I can't be certain, absolutely certain, of the zipper bag. I recall seeing so much of it since, tripped over it numerous times, that it may be just that I recalled it. I didn't move this luggage at all.

Mr. Jenner. I am not suggesting that you did.

Mrs. Paine. I am sorry I can't remember it better.

Mr. Jenner. Were all of these suitcases about the same size and shape?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You have described the rectangular one. Would you now describe the second, the second in order of your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Well, there was at least another rectangular one.

Mr. Jenner. Hard-sided?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was it larger or smaller than the one you have described?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall with certainty.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a third?

Mrs. Paine. There may have been a third. I certainly recall this radio that was unusual. The others I don't.

Mr. Jenner. It is possible you might be confused between the radio case and a suitcase.

Mrs. Paine. No, no; no possibility of that.

Mr. Jenner. All right. He checked all these articles, checked them into the bus station?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did you and Lee and Marina return to their home?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you remain there?

Mrs. Paine. No. He then helped pack up the remaining things, the playpen, the bed, and then we left there midafternoon, perhaps 4, all of this must have taken quite a long time, because——

Mr. Jenner. They removed everything from their home?

Mrs. Paine. They removed everything that remained to them.

Mr. Jenner. Put it in the station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. Put it in the station wagon and went with Lee and Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Your station wagon was big enough to hold everything in the house, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Well, they had no furniture, but it held all the rest of their things; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he do the packing?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What were you doing in the meantime?

Mrs. Paine. Packing was haphazard, this packing was haphazard; put the dishes in a box and carried it out to the car.

Mr. Jenner. It was in the open so you could see what went into your car?

Mrs. Paine. I think so. I certainly then repacked it to go to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I want to stick with this occasion, please.

Mrs. Paine. All right.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a rifle packed in the back of the car?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't see any kind of weapon?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise?

Mrs. Paine. No; I saw nothing of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. Did you drive them to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; immediately.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see that being done, were you present?

Mrs. Paine. I helped do it; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any weapon on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Whether a rifle, pistol or——

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Or any covering, any package, that looked as though it might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Up to this moment, Mrs. Paine, had there been any discussion with Marina or with Lee Harvey Oswald in connection with his life in Russia with the use of a firearm or his right to use one in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. I never heard him mention anything of this sort. Michael told me later he mentioned it to Michael.

Mr. McCloy. State that, please.

Mrs. Paine. Michael told me later that Lee had complained in Michael's hearing that they did not permit a private individual to have a gun, but I didn't hear that when it was said. So there was no discussion at any time that mentioned guns, nothing brought up by Marina or Lee.

Mr. Jenner. I will broaden my question. Up to—now up to, and not including, up to November 22, 1963, had there ever been any discussion between you and Lee Harvey Oswald or between you and Marina or any discussion in the presence of either of them by anybody, including yourself, about the use of a firearm by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Marina told me that he had been hunting in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jenner. Now, please, to the best of your recollection when did that occur?

Mrs. Paine. When did she tell me?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. It might have been as long ago as May, when she was first staying at my house. She quoted a proverb to the effect that you go hunting in the Soviet Union and you catch a bottle of vodka, so I judge it was a social occasion more than shooting being the prime object.

Mr. Jenner. That was in this period when she was living with you in the spring of 1963?

Mrs. Paine. It could have been there. It might have been in October, but I would guess it was in May.

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would elaborate on that.

Mrs. Paine. I wish I wouldn't guess, I know.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say that Lee Harvey Oswald had some kind of a firearm in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. That he had gone hunting with a group, in other words, in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. What was the occasion——

Mrs. Paine. And she quoted this proverb.

Mr. Jenner. Can you remember the circumstance in which she made that utterance?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Anything that provoked it or brought it about?

Mrs. Paine. I think she was probably recalling something of their life in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. In a discussion between you and Marina as to their life in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Any other occasion in which a discussion occurred between you and either of them or in their presence while you were present on the subject of a firearm prior to November 22?

Mrs. Paine. On one occasion around the middle of November I said to Marina that——

Mr. Jenner. Was Lee Harvey Oswald present?

Mrs. Paine. He was not present.

Mr. Jenner. Just Marina and you?

Mrs. Paine. Just Marina and I.

Mr. Jenner. Was it in your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I said to her that I did not want to buy toy guns for my children, and that this view of things was shared with a German friend of mine who had been a young girl at the time of the last World War in Germany, and she didn't wish to buy guns for her children to play with, and I said too few people think about this. She said nothing in reply.

Mr. Jenner. She didn't say anything at all in response to that. Does that exhaust your recollection of all discussion of firearms?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it does.

Mr. Jenner. That occurred in your presence?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Up to November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Up to, that is right.

Mr. McCloy. There was no suggestion of Lee's using a firearm for hunting purposes in the United States?

Mrs. Paine. None; nor that he might have had any gun.

Mr. McCloy. Nor that he might have had any gun.

Mr. Jenner. After Marina's things and the baby's things had been placed in your home then what occurred in the evening, was this late in the day of the 24th?

Mrs. Paine. It was close to supper. I am sure we then ate and put our children to bed, possibly talked a short time. I no doubt explained to her quite soon that I was to go away for the weekend. Indeed, this invitation was made quite on the spur of the moment. You don't normally invite someone to come and stay with you when you are about to go away, but I was to go to a folk-dance camp with Michael that weekend, and you see on the calendar "FDC" which stands for folk-dance camp, arrow San Antonio. That is the 26th, 27th and 28th.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I noticed that.

Mrs. Paine. And I left her in the house with the telephone number of my Russian tutor to call, and I believe they talked, in fact, before I left.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us the name of your Russian tutor.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question that we passed by?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. When you unloaded Marina's things and the baby's things, did this subtract one suitcase from this number you have indicated? Was one of the suitcases delegated to her things or were they just loose in the car?

Mrs. Paine. Insofar as I remember, I believe they were loose.

Mr. Dulles. They were loose. So that the number of suitcases you have indicated were those that were eventually checked and taken by Lee Harvey Oswald to New Orleans.

Mrs. Paine. Well, that is the way I remember it. It does not seem reasonable that he would go off without leaving her a suitcase to put her things in, so I would guess there was something for her in the nature, perhaps, of a small bag.

Mr. Dulles. So that one of these bags may have been unloaded at your house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. You testified, I believe, you started to testify, that there was also a radio that had been presumably purchased in Russia. Did he take that with him?

Mrs. Paine. He took that.

Mr. McCloy. He took that with him. He didn't return that to her.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I don't want to speculate, but I thought you had testified in response to my questions that the two or three pieces of luggage, that is, the suitcases, plus the two duffel bags, plus the zipper bag, plus the radio, had been checked into the bus station.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. All of those pieces of luggage were actually checked in, and when you left the bus station none of the pieces of luggage or the radio or the duffel bags had been placed back in your car.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall it, but it seems to me unreasonable——

Mr. Jenner. Now, please, I don't want you to rationalize. I want your best recollection.

Mrs. Paine. I cannot recall. I mean the suitcases that came to my house——

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall having taken one of the pieces of luggage and placed that piece back in your station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no, no, that is definite. All that went to the bus station.

Mr. Jenner. Remained there.

Mrs. Paine. Remained there.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Dulles. At what stage did they go to the bus station? Did you go from their apartment to your house and then to the bus station or did you go to the bus station first?

Mrs. Paine. Directly to the bus station.

Mr. Dulles. And then went to your house?

Mrs. Paine. Directly to the bus station from their apartment, back to their apartment and picked up the rest of the things.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

Mrs. Paine. The baby things and her clothing and then went to my house.

Mr. Dulles. I see.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, apart from your rationalization, do you have the recollection that there was any luggage at all in the Oswald home when you got back?

Mrs. Paine. No; I have no such recollection.

Mr. Jenner. So that in response to Mr. Dulles' questions when you talked about the possibility of some luggage, you were rationalizing?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You are not drawing on your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. I take it your best recollection, in fact, is that there was no luggage remaining at the Oswald home when you got back?

Mrs. Paine. There was nothing packed when we got back.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall undertaking to pack anything when you got back in order to remove what they had there remaining to your home?

Mrs. Paine. You mean was there a suitcase into which I could pack anything?

Mr. Jenner. That is it.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, you have related to us that you went away for the weekend.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With your husband.

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have an entry in your diary, and I quote it on the 24th of April, 1963: "Lee and Marina."

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was that an entry made after the fact?

Mrs. Paine. No; I judge that was——

Mr. Jenner. Now, please give me your best recollection.

Mrs. Paine. That was the plan to meet, knowing Lee was no longer working; it was there for not only a meeting with Marina, but I expected to see them both at the apartment.

Mr. Jenner. So that is confined to the meeting you expected to have with Lee and Marina that morning when you went there and, to your surprise, you found that Mr. Oswald was all packed to go to New Orleans.

Mrs. Paine. All packed and looking for a cab; yes.

Mr. Jenner. How long did Marina remain in your home on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. She stayed then until May 9—well, excuse me, she stayed until the 10th of May.

Mr. Jenner. You have an entry, do you not, in your diary as to the May 9th or 10th.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Read it.

Mrs. Paine. It says now going over to the 11th "New Orleans."

Mr. Jenner. And you have written across then "May 10 and May 11," is that right?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What does the "New Orleans" signify, please?

Mrs. Paine. Lee called on the evening of the 9th to say he had work.

Mr. Jenner. You recall that?

Mrs. Paine. I recall that definitely. Marina says, "Papa naslubet," "Father loves us," "Daddy loves us, he got work and he wanted us to come." She was very elated.

Mr. Jenner. This is Marina talking to you?

Mrs. Paine. I could see as she talked on the phone.

Mr. Jenner. You overheard this conversation?

Mrs. Paine. Afterward. She said over and over, "Papa naslubet," "Daddy loves us," "Daddy loves us."

Mr. Jenner. She was elated?

Mrs. Paine. She was elated and, let's see, we tried to think when we could leave, and first said over the phone that we would leave on the morning of the 11th. But I thought it would be too long to do all this in one day, and we accelerated our preparations and left midday on the 10th which got us to Shreveport.

Mr. Jenner. Before we get into this, and I would like to cover this interim period before any adjournment today; there was a 16-day period now, approximately, maybe we will limit it to 15 days, that Marina stayed with you in your home.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have conversations with her about her husband?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. About their life in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. Well, even going so far as to wonder——

Mr. Jenner. During this 15-day period?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. We had such conversations.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate to us your discussions with Marina with respect to her husband Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Well, she wondered if he did, in fact, love her.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say?

Mrs. Paine. She said she supposed most couples had at some time wondered about this. She wondered herself whether she loved him truly. She talked some of her few months of dating that she had in Minsk, and of living there.

Mr. Jenner. That is before her marriage to Lee Harvey?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. At some point, and I want to tell you this, whether it is appropriate or whether it happened later in October, I can't be certain, but I think in May she told me that she had written a letter to a previous boyfriend, and that this letter had come back because she had put insufficient postage on it, and Lee had found it at the door coming back through the mail, and had been very angry.

Mr. Jenner. Did she go beyond that?

Mrs. Paine. She did not. To tell me what was in the letter, you mean?

Mr. Jenner. I am not thinking so much within the letter. Did she go beyond stating that he was merely only angry? Was there any discussion about his having struck her?

Mrs. Paine. No; none. No; none. She never mentioned to me ever that Lee had struck her.

Mr. Jenner. And during all the visits you ever had with her, all the tete-a-tetes, her living with you on this occasion we now describe as 15½ days, and in the fall, was there any occasion when Marina Oswald related to you any abuse, physical abuse, by her husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, with respect to her?

Mrs. Paine. There was never any such occasion.

Mr. Jenner. Never any such occasion. And in particular this incident?

Mrs. Paine. She related this incident, but it did not include anything further than he had been very angry and hurt.

Mr. Jenner. Up to this time, that is, the time she came to you on the 24th, had you ever seen any bruises——

Mrs. Paine. No; I never saw her——

Mr. Jenner. On her person?

Mrs. Paine. No; I never saw her bruised.

Mr. Jenner. At no time that you have ever seen her or known her, have you ever seen her bruised?

Mrs. Paine. At no time.

Mr. Jenner. So that there has been no occasion when you have seen it, or been led to believe, she had been subjected to any physical abuse by her husband?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion during these 15 days of any occasion when Marina had gone off to live with someone else?

Mrs. Paine. No. I think she told me that in the fall.

Mr. Jenner. I see. As long as I have raised that, would you please give us the time and the occasions and tell us what occurred?

Mrs. Paine. What she told me?

Mr. Jenner. What she said. When was this?

Mrs. Paine. This probably was in October. She told me that the previous year she had——

Mr. Jenner. 1962?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. She had in the fall, she had gone to a friend's home, left Lee. She described his face as she left, as shocked and dismayed and unbelieving.

Mr. Jenner. Unbelieving?

Mrs. Paine. In a sense that she was truly walking out on him.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Excuse me. Did she put it in those terms, that she was leaving?

Mrs. Paine. She was leaving; yes.

Mr. Jenner. She left him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and went to stay with a friend. Then moved to the home——

Mr. Jenner. Did she name the friend?

Mrs. Paine. She did not name the friend; no. The friend's name came up in another connection, but I had no way of making the connection until after I learned about this to whom she referred.

Mr. Jenner. Do you now recall the name?

Mrs. Paine. She went to Katya Ford's.

The Chairman. To the Fords?

Mrs. Paine. To Katya, being the friend, Mrs. Ford.

The Chairman. Mrs. Ford.

Mrs. Paine. And then moved. She did tell me this. She had moved on the weekend to a different home. Then Lee came there, pleaded for her to come back, promised that everything would be different. She went back and she reported—as she reported it to me, things were no different.

Mr. Jenner. Were not different?

Mrs. Paine. Were not different.

Mr. Jenner. Did you undertake a discussion with her as to what the things were that were disturbing her?

Mrs. Paine. That offended her that much? No; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. That led her to leave her husband?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. There was no discussion of that?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Did you ever witness any altercations?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed I saw them argue a good deal.

Mr. McCloy. Sharp arguments?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. But no violence of any kind?

Mrs. Paine. No physical violence.

Mr. McCloy. Any profanity?

Mrs. Paine. I am not sure I know Russian profanity. He was very curt and told her to shut up quite a great deal.

Mr. Jenner. In your presence?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In the presence of others?

Mrs. Paine. Particularly in New Orleans the first time when we went down, when I took her to New Orleans in May, he was very discourteous to her, and they argued most of that weekend. I was very uncomfortable in that situation, and he would tell her to shut up, tell her, "I said it, and that is all the discussion on the subject."

Representative Ford. What were the kinds of discussions that prompted this?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall that, and I have already had my brain picked trying to, with other people trying to, to recall what was the difficulty. I do recall feeling that the immediate things they were talking about were insufficient reason for that much feeling being passed back and forth, and I wondered if I wasn't adding to the strain in the situation, and did my best to get back to Texas directly. But the—well, I do recall one thing, yes—we arrived with a big load of blackberries that we bought from a vendor along the street.

Representative Ford. On the way down?

Mrs. Paine. On the way down, on the road, and ate them, and then, he, one morning, started to make blackberry wine, and she bawled him out for it, what a waste of good blackberries, and she said, "What do you think you are doing? Ruining all this." And he proceeded, and argued about it, but thought he should, you know, defend himself. On this occasion she was making the attack in a sense and didn't think he should do it this way, and then, so, under fire and attack, he continued. But then the next day she observed that he had tossed it all out and lost heart after the argument, and decided it wasn't——

Mr. Dulles. He tossed out the wine?

Mrs. Paine. He tossed it out; yes.

Mr. Jenner. You detected, then, irritability as between them. Is that a fair statement?

Mrs. Paine. That is accurate.

Mr. Jenner. And anger rose to the surface pretty easily?

Mrs. Paine. Very easily.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression? Of course he hadn't seen her then for a couple of weeks.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about it—when she came in. Did they embrace?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. We arrived at his uncle's in one section of New Orleans, and had a very friendly half hour or so——

Mr. Jenner. Was he there?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he was there. He introduced her and little June, and played with June, on his shoulders, perhaps. At any rate, he was very glad to see the baby, and was congenial and outgoing. We talked with the relatives for a short time.

Then the uncle drove them to the apartment—I was following with my children in my car—drove to the apartment he had rented, which was in a different section of the city. And Lee showed her, of course, all the virtues of the apartment that he had rented. He was pleased that there was room enough, it was large enough that he could invite me to stay, and the children, to spend the night there. And he pointed out this little courtyard with grass, and fresh strawberries ready to pick, where June could play. And a screened porch entryway. And quite a large living room. And he was pleased with the furniture and how the landlady had said this was early New Orleans style. And Marina was definitely not as pleased as he had hoped. I think he felt—he wanted to please her. This showed in him.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us what she said. What led you to that conclusion?

Mrs. Paine. She said it is dark, and it is not very clean. She thought the courtyard was nice, a grass spot where June could play, fenced in. But there was very little ventilation. We immediately were aware there were a lot of cockroaches.

Mr. Jenner. Was she aware of this, and did she comment on that?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know as anything was said. He was pretty busy explaining. He was doing his best to get rid of them. But they didn't subside. I remember noticing that he was tender and vulnerable at that point, when she arrived.

Mr. Jenner. He was tender?

Mrs. Paine. Hoping for—particularly vulnerable, hoping for approval from her, which she didn't give. It wasn't a terribly nice apartment. And she had been disappointed, because when we first arrived she thought that the home we were going to was the apartment.

Mr. Jenner. She thought the Murrets' home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. So when we came up to the Murrets' home, she said, "This is lovely, how pleased I am." So that she was in—disappointed by contrast with the apartment that she really had to live in.

Representative Ford. She expressed this?

Mrs. Paine. She expressed her disappointment; yes; and didn't meet his hopes to be pleased with it.

Mr. Dulles. As compared with their previous place of residence, how was the New Orleans apartment? It was bigger, I gather.

Mrs. Paine. It was larger. It was darker, less well ventilated. It was on the first floor, the other was upstairs. I would say they were comparable in cost and in attractiveness.

Mr. Jenner. What about vermin?

Mrs. Paine. I didn't see any vermin at the first place. But then I didn't spend the night there.

Mr. Jenner. So the welcoming was cordial?

Mrs. Paine. The welcoming was cordial.

Mr. Jenner. They seemed to have a fine relationship at that moment?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But as the weekend progressed, and she saw the new apartment, all the time you were there, you were aware of friction and irritability?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Going back to the 15 days again, was there any discussion during this period, again, on the subject of Mr.—of Lee Oswald wishing Marina to return to Russia?

Mrs. Paine. I believe I made definite, but only verbal, an invitation for her to stay on with me, past the time of the baby's birth, if she wished to.

Mr. Jenner. I take it—I will get into that. But I take it your answer to my question first is yes.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, tell us what that discussion was.

Mrs. Paine. Well——

Mr. Jenner. And how it arose.

Mrs. Paine. Well, we still discussed the possibility of her coming back to have the baby here—although by no means a definite—definitely planned.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. I am a little confused. When you say coming back to have the baby here——

Mrs. Paine. It was assumed she would go to New Orleans when he called, but we talked about the possibility of her coming back to Dallas. I said she was still welcome to if she wants to, if it seems appropriate, to come here to have the baby.

Mr. Dulles. That was to your house, you mean?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; to stay at my house before, or especially right after the baby's birth, where I could look after June while she was in the hospital and later. June didn't take readily to strangers. She did like me and was comfortable with me, so I felt she might want to have someone she knew and got along with.

Mr. Jenner. But in this connection, was there a discussion between you and Marina Oswald subject to her husband wishing her to return to Russia?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe she again said that he was after her to return.

Mr. Jenner. Well, then, on the whole, your answer to my question would be no.

Mrs. Paine. That is right. As far as I recall, it came up only once in our discussions prior to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Which you have already related?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion during the 15-day period on the subject of her acquiring greater facility with the English language?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And his attitude toward that?

Mrs. Paine. His attitude had already been discussed, and I don't believe it was particularly discussed further. But she did indicate that she was going to try to learn some anyway.

Mr. Jenner. Despite that?

Mrs. Paine. I judged so. I asked if she had a book written in Russian entitled "The Self Teacher in the English Language." She did not. And I ordered it. And I think I gave it to her even then. I am quite certain of that. This turned out to be not much help. At least she was interested in trying to learn English.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion of the subject of it being disclosed to the Russian emigré group that she was pregnant.

Mrs. Paine. No; she continued to ask me not to mention that. We did, however, meet someone in the Russian emigré group in Fort Worth after she had the first day put on maternity clothes—and so she was sorry that that meeting had occurred. She judged now people would know.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Did anything else occur in the way of discussions during that 15-day period on the subject of life in Russia, his political philosophy, how they got along, his general disposition, her reaction to America?

Mrs. Paine. She discussed her reaction to America. She was very impressed with the variety of goods available in the stores. She thought the quality was better here than in Russia. Then there was more of that later in October.

Mr. Jenner. I will get to that, in October. Have we pretty well exhausted this 15-day interim period, then?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, sir.

Representative Ford. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there? During this 15-day period, did any individual, male or female, come and visit you at your home?

Mrs. Paine. You mean particularly to see her? I am sure there are people coming and going at my house. There must have been. For instance, May 1, Mary—this is again Miss Mary referred to previously, a babysitter, "8:15. War and Peace." Mary came and stayed with my children, and Marina and June and I went to see War and Peace. Miss Mary recalls that meeting.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a play or the movie?

Mrs. Paine. This is the movie, War and Peace, in English. But, of course, she knew the story, so she could enjoy seeing it. "Ed tennis confirm." I went over to play tennis. On the fourth of May, Craig's children—they came here.

Representative Ford. Into your home?

Mrs. Paine. Probably.

Mr. Jenner. Who is Craig?

Mrs. Paine. Craig is this young German woman who didn't want to buy guns for her children either, that I mentioned. And we exchanged children often.

Mr. Jenner. Does she speak Russian?

Mrs. Paine. No; German only, and English. And, mow the lawn, it says on the third, but that is not me, it is a neighbor who mows the lawn. And May 9 in the morning, "Ilse"—means Mrs. Craig again—kept my children while I went at 8:10 to Saint Marks for an interview. So there was a normal flow. And I told my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, who figures later, that Marina was there over the weekend, that I wouldn't be there, and introduced them, so Marina could go to Mrs. Roberts and make signs or symbols if she had to get a message through to someone.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Roberts is your next door neighbor?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Then your response to Representative Ford's question is that——

Mrs. Paine. A normal flow to my house.

Mr. Jenner. But there wasn't anybody that came specifically to see her from the Russian emigré group, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Ford. Were there any telephone calls to her from anybody of this group, or any other group?

Mrs. Paine. No. I made the contact for her with my tutor, got her to call. But that is all.

Mr. Dulles. She probably could not operate the telephone.

Mrs. Paine. She could. That was the first I knew. I wasn't certain. But she knew how to operate the telephone.

Mr. Jenner. I am pleased you raised that, sir. She could dial. Did you have the dial system in effect at that time?

Mrs. Paine. Way out in Irving; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And she could dial the number if she wished?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she knew how to do that.

Mr. McCloy. Did you at any time get any evidence to indicate that she was in touch with any Soviet officials at all, the consul general? Did she ever talk of going to the Soviet Embassy or the Soviet Consulate in regard to her problems?

Mrs. Paine. No. The only thing ever mentioned was this that I have already mentioned for the record—that she had written to the Soviet Embassy inquiring about papers to go back.

Mr. McCloy. Did you think she did that on her own initiative?

Mrs. Paine. No; because he was insisting.

Mr. Dulles. We have a copy of that letter, have we not?

Mr. McCloy. Did she ever tell you why she didn't want to return to the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Paine. She said she liked America better.

Mr. McCloy. And she rather liked the conditions here better than she had experienced them in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. And that you think was her fundamental motivation for staying here?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Wanting to stay here? When you were in contact with her at all did any—when she was staying with you, was there any unidentified characters or people that called to see her?

Mrs. Paine. No; there was no one at all that called to see her.

Mr. Jenner. Were there any telephone calls received during that period when you answered the phone that someone asked for Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Only that from Lee on the night.

Mr. Jenner. Only from Lee?

Mrs. Paine. Only from Lee.

Mr. Jenner. No other calls to her?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And no other callers—that is persons who came to your home?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. McCloy. What was the name of these—De Mohrenschildts. Did they communicate with her when she was with you?

Mrs. Paine. No; my impression is they were already out of the country.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any mail received or delivered to your home during this period for her?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't think so. It is possible that Lee wrote once. I think it is more likely she wrote him.

Mr. Jenner. In the household goods and paraphernalia transferred to your house, were there any books, pamphlets, literature?

Mrs. Paine. I didn't see any.

Mr. Jenner. You did not see any?

Mrs. Paine. I did not.

Mr. McCloy. Did you ever engage in any discussion or dialectics with Lee about the respective merits of the capitalist system or the Soviet system? Did you engage in any debates with him on political philosophy?

Mrs. Paine. I once listened to such a debate between Lee and my husband, in October.

Mr. Dulles. You kept out of the debate?

Mrs. Paine. I tried hard. I felt it was not going anywhere, and that he was not a man that could be approached by logic, and that there was no point to arguing with him. I disagreed with him quite strongly, and I didn't see how it would help in any way to say so, or to try to change—certainly it would not have helped to try to change his views. He, for instance, was of the opinion that all churches were an arm of the state, intent upon blinding the people. I thought his thinking was extremely erroneous, and not open to introduction of other facts, anything contradictory to his own view.

Mr. McCloy. Did he become intemperate in argument?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. McCloy. But in the course of his discussions with your husband, did he assert adherence to the element of violence as a factor——

Mrs. Paine. Michael tells me he did. I didn't hear that particular discussion.

Representative Ford. In response to Mr. McCloy, you told of this argument that your husband and Lee Oswald had. You said it was October. This is October 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Do you have any more questions? We are going to resume in the morning at 9 o'clock.

The Chairman. Will you be here?

Mr. McCloy. Yes; I will be here.

The Chairman. Then you continue to preside throughout her testimony. I will be here, though.

Mr. Dulles. I have no questions.

Mr. McCloy. Do you want to close?

Mr. Jenner. I would just as soon adjourn now, if it suits your convenience.

Mr. McCloy. All right. We will excuse you. Thank you for your cooperation.

(Whereupon, at 5:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

---

[Thursday, March 19, 1964]
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on March 19, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.

Mr. McCloy. Mrs. Paine, I must remind you that you are still under affirmation. We don't take a new affirmation with each hearing.

Mr. Jenner. We had concluded, if you recall, the 15-day period in May that Mrs. Oswald resided at the home of Mrs. Paine.

Would you please describe for us the items of household furniture, or whatever the articles were, that were packed in your station wagon when you took Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. We packed in a play pen and crib. I recall a stroller, some kitchen utensils, and personal clothing for herself and the baby.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any luggage of any character?

Mrs. Paine. There may have been a small suitcase but I don't recall it specifically.

Mr. Jenner. You do not?

Mrs. Paine. I am just guessing.

Mr. Jenner. As I recall you have told us yesterday that when you arrived in New Orleans, you went by the Murrets' home first?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And then from the Murrets' home to the apartment at, what was that address on Magazine Street?

Mrs. Paine. 4907.

Mr. Jenner. That was 4907 rather than 4905.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, there has been a touch of testimony, at least of the possibility that Mr. Oswald may have dry-fired or dry-sighted any rifle in the courtyard or garden space at 4907?

Would you be good enough to draw for us free hand the layout, at least the ground layout of the 4907 premises on Magazine Street in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Now, shall I describe this?

Mr. Jenner. Could I first show the diagram. I have marked the diagram the witness has drawn as Commission Exhibit No. 403.

(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, might it be helpful and permissible if I had the witness stand to your rear and point to the diagram so that you might follow her testimony?

Mr. McCloy. Very well.

Mrs. Paine. This street is Magazine Street; it is a corner house.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, left on your plot is east and west and up and down are north and south?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is the way I recall it. This is a corner house and there was room enough——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, I have to keep the record. You are referring now to a square on the right-hand margin of your outline.

Mrs. Paine. Between this house, and the courtyard and house where the Oswalds were staying, there was room enough to drive a car.

Mr. Jenner. Have you marked the courtyard with that word?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have written "courtyard" in the sort of an "L" shaped space that you have indicated on the plot, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. This is a square space cut by a walk.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. This was a low fence.

Mr. Jenner. When you say this, it does not help us on the record; what is this to which you have pointed—you have written something across it?

Mrs. Paine. Around this courtyard and in front of the house was a low metal picket fence.

Mr. Jenner. That you have so designated?

Mrs. Paine. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mrs. Paine. There was grass within this small courtyard or walk, steps——

Mr. Jenner. Which you have also marked "walk"?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Steps going up.

Mr. Jenner. Which you have likewise so marked?

Mrs. Paine. To a screened porch.

Mr. Jenner. Likewise so marked?

Mrs. Paine. And then the doorway from the porch goes into the living room.

Mr. Jenner. And the living room is marked "Living room." Would you use those names and those designations as you testify?

Mrs. Paine. All right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you please indicate the courtyard or square or oblong portion you have marked, rectangular portion, that was open space, was it, it was not roofed?

Mrs. Paine. It was fully open.

Mr. Jenner. It was fully open, and it faced out on Magazine Street?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And was there open space to the east, that would be toward the building, which you have merely designated as an empty square?

Mrs. Paine. I will write in here "driveway;" this was open here as a driveway.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, is that what you have now marked a building, a dwelling?

Mrs. Paine. It was a dwelling.

Mr. Jenner. Were there dwellings to the south of Magazine Street and on the opposite side of the street?

Mrs. Paine. That so far as I recall, that is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. What was to the east in the way of dwellings or buildings?

Mrs. Paine. The rest of the house; they lived in a portion; entered from the side door of a large house; I assume it was once a one-family dwelling.

Mr. Jenner. Then for our purpose here as far as the courtyard is concerned on the east it was—there was a walk?

Mrs. Paine. A building.

Mr. Jenner. West, I am sorry. On the west line of the courtyard there was a walk?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. On the north of the courtyard there was the screened porch and to the east, but with intervening driveway there was a dwelling house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Then the courtyard was open on Magazine Street?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Does your recollection serve you that anybody standing in the courtyard and dry-sighting a rifle would be visible to people who just happened by, or who would be looking out a window on the south side of Magazine Street, or in the home or in the dwelling house to the east of the courtyard?

Mrs. Paine. He would have been very visible. Would have collected a clutch of small boys.

Mr. Jenner. This was a neighborhood, then, in which there were small children?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was it a reasonably busy street?

Mrs. Paine. Very busy street.

Mr. Jenner. What were the days of the week that you were there when you returned, when you brought Mrs. Oswald to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. When we first went down, we arrived on Saturday, I was there Sunday and Monday and left Tuesday morning.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Does your recollection serve so that you can state that the days you were there you observed during the daytime, at least many or a reasonable number of small children and mothers and fathers, in and about the neighborhood?

Mrs. Paine. A good many small children and adults.

Mr. Jenner. Was that likewise true when you returned in September about which you will testify in a few moments?

Mrs. Paine. That was certainly true in September.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 403, a plot which Mrs. Paine has just drawn and which is so marked.

Mr. McCloy. So received.

(The diagram referred to heretofore, marked Commission Exhibit No. 403 for identification, was received in evidence.)

(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Was the dwelling in which the Oswalds were residing, 4907 Magazine Street, a single level or a double level house?

Mrs. Paine. It was all on the ground floor.

Mr. Jenner. It was a one-story house, one story high?

Mrs. Paine. It was a segment of a house that probably had two stories to it. I don't recall. But the segment they had was all on one level.

Mr. Jenner. And that was the ground level?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to Exhibit No. 403, and Mr. Dulles, would you favor me by handing her the exhibit, and with particular reference to the screen porch, the screen porch likewise opened up on Magazine Street, did it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it was set back a short space from the street, but the door opened up toward Magazine.

Mr. Jenner. The screened portion, that is, that faced on Magazine Street?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. If anyone were on the screen porch, let us say, dry-sighting a rifle or some other firearm, would he be, would that person be observable from Magazine Street, and from the east?

Mrs. Paine. I doubt he would have been noticed from Magazine Street. A small boy passing in the driveway could have looked through the screen, up to the——

Mr. Jenner. That is to the east?

Mrs. Paine. I will mark "screen" on the south and east side so you know it is screened on both sides.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall for certainty but there may have been a kind of shade that could have been put down. It was not when I was there, down, but there may have been some means of——

Mr. Jenner. Lattice shade?

Mrs. Paine. Putting down a lattice blind.

Mr. Jenner. A blind or something?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Of course, if the blind were down no one could see it. Did you have occasion when you were there, Mrs. Paine, on either of your two trips to be on the screen porch?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. And looking out?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was there any impediment to your view?

Mrs. Paine. No, I could see the street very well.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion there on either of those occasions to be out in the courtyard or on the street to be looking into the porch area.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Could you see the persons, from the courtyard, could you see persons behind the screen?

Mrs. Paine. From the courtyard you could see persons behind the screen.

Mr. Jenner. Do I take it then by your emphasis on courtyard, do you mean by that if you were on Magazine Street itself, that is the sidewalk in front of the home it would be difficult to see in?

Mrs. Paine. Looking directly in you would notice someone but just passing by you would not have been apt to see them.

Mr. Jenner. But if you looked directly you could see in on the porch?

Mrs. Paine. I think so; yes.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned yesterday a series of letters and correspondence and you spent some time with me last night and we went over all that, do you recall?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have your summary we worked with last night at hand to assist you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Would you mind taking that out, please?

You mentioned yesterday in your testimony a note that you had sent to Marina Oswald shortly after your initial acquaintance with her in February of 1963. Did you receive a response to that note?

Mrs. Paine. I did; and I have that response.

Mr. Jenner. I have here a document which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 404, including its envelope as 404A.

Is that the document or note you received from Mrs. Oswald and the envelope?

(The document and envelope referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 404 and 404A, respectively, for identification.)

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Did that reach you in the ordinary course of its posting by mail?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I am now.

Mr. Jenner. Is that—do you identify the handwriting in that document 404?

Mrs. Paine. That is her handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. That is hers.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And is it in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And that is her response to your note?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Exhibit No. 404 the document now so marked.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The letter and envelope referred to, heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 404 and 404-A, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, that is in what language?

Mrs. Paine. That is in Russian. Except for the address on the outside.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Have you made a translation of that note?

Mrs. Paine. I have.

Mr. Jenner. And is it the translation on the notes that you exhibited to me last night which we have marked as No. 1?

Mrs. Paine. It is.

Mr. Jenner. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman, if you would prefer that I read the translation in evidence or may we have it——

Mr. McCloy. It is a short note?

Mr. Jenner. It is a short note. Others are a little longer, however, and if I have your permission, to save you time, I would read that into the record during the noon recess or something of that character.

Mr. McCloy. Very well.

Mr. Jenner. Is that acceptable.

Now, did you thereafter—you wrote Mrs. Oswald at or about that time in response to that note of yours, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. No. Let's see—I don't recall whether I did or not or whether I arrived on the Tuesday that she had suggested.

Mr. Jenner. I have a little difficulty in handling these, Mr. Chairman, because they are in Russian, and I don't immediately have a vision of it.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. I am handing you a document which I have numbered as No. 2.

Would you locate that for me on your summary?

Mrs. Paine. I have it.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the second page?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That note also in Russian but in whose handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. In my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. And that is a draft, I take it, of a letter or note that you transmitted to Mrs. Oswald.

Would you identify in your sheaf of notes the point at which you made a translation of that note?

Mrs. Paine. When did I make a translation of it? I didn't understand your question.

Mr. Jenner. Would you point out in your notes the translation of the document? Is that the center of the page on page 2?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is the document which I will have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 405 in your handwriting?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 for identification.)

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Is it in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; being, of course, a rough draft of what I sent and not what I sent.

Mr. Jenner. You do not have the original of that because you sent it to Marina Oswald, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. But it does represent your present best recollection of the note as you transmitted it to her?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. This note is without a date. Shall I give my recollection of when I think it was written?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; please.

Mrs. Paine. I think it was written in March and referred to—it closes, "Until the 20th." I believe that referred to Wednesday, March 20, which is what appears here with the name Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Which is what you testified to yesterday, and when you say "appears here" you meant Exhibit 401?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence the original document which has now been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 405.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 405 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. I will read the translation in the record during the noon recess. You shortly transmitted another letter of your own to Mrs. Oswald, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And I have here a document which I have marked Commission Exhibit No. 406. Is this a draft of the letter in your handwriting?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 for identification.)

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And did you shortly after the completion of that draft retranscribe it and transmit the letter to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you made a translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Is the draft of that document in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where is that document transcribed on your notes?

Mrs. Paine. That is at the top of page 2.

Mr. Jenner. That is what we call No. 3, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. And dated March 26.

Mr. Jenner. This, Mr. Chairman, is her note to which she testified yesterday was an invitation to the Oswalds to dinner at her home on April 2.

Mrs. Paine. It appears—the following invitation is a full explanation of it. I believe I had made the explanation in person. This letter was to say that Michael would come and pick them up.

Mr. Jenner. This was confirmation of your original invitation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; this was that Michael could pick them up.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence a document marked Commission Exhibit No. 406.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 406 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive from Marina herself a note with respect to your invitation to have her and her husband join you?

Mrs. Paine. I have a note which I take to be a reply to that invitation, saying that that date, Tuesday, would be fine.

Mr. Jenner. And I hand you Commission Document No. 407.

Is that the note you received from Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 407 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Have you made—is it in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. Paine. I have no envelope anymore. I don't know what happened to it.

Mr. Jenner. Is the note itself in the same condition as it was at the time you received it?

Mrs. Paine. No. I have written on it in my hand to help me understand the meaning of it, some pen notations, translation of the Russian words.

Mr. Jenner. I am interested in that, Mrs. Paine.

Did you also—are there some additions in your handwriting on the first page of the note?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, marked one, two, three, four and clearly taken from a dictionary.

Mr. Jenner. Why did you do that?

Mrs. Paine. To explain to myself the meaning of these particular words. I had to look them up.

Mr. Jenner. Is it a fair statement, Mrs. Paine, that your command of the Russian language was not facile enough for you to read the total letter freehand, as soon as you received it, but you wrote on the letter definitions of words and of phrases to assist you in interpreting it?

Mrs. Paine. That is a fair statement.

Mr. Jenner. Were all the notations you have now identified placed by you on that letter shortly after you received it, or in the course of your effort to interpret it?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, save for those additions of yours, is the document in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And is it otherwise in the same condition as it was when you placed those notes on it?

In other words, there have been no notes of your own placed on the document subsequent to, at, or about the time you received it when you were attempting to interpret it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, you first said, or when I was translating it.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I translated it immediately for myself at the time, and then when I made a written translation I made a more careful one so that some of these notes were done a week ago.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I was getting at.

Would you please, for the Commission identify the particular notes that you placed on there at the time you were seeking to interpret it when you first received it, and the notes you placed on there about a week ago, and indicate the pages.

Mrs. Paine. I can easily answer that.

There is only one that was placed more recently. That is an underline on the inside.

Mr. Jenner. Right-hand inside page?

Mrs. Paine. Right-hand side.

Mr. Jenner. Is it merely an underlining?

Mrs. Paine. Underline and a question mark.

Mr. Jenner. And would you interpret that for us, please?

Mrs. Paine. I couldn't read her handwriting, but later realized the word to be "if."

Mr. Jenner. When you were seeking to interpret it a week ago to translate it, you placed a question mark over that word because you couldn't quite figure it out?

Mrs. Paine. And then later realized what it was.

Mr. Jenner. As being the word "if"?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that, Mrs. Paine, is the document in the condition it was when you received it and when you initially placed notations on it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize that handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, that is Marina Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. Have you made a translation for the Commission of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And that appears in your notes at page what?

Mrs. Paine. The first page at the bottom.

Mr. Jenner. Which I have marked No. 4, I believe, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Beginning "For Ruth and Michael Paine."

Mr. Jenner. Does your interpretation or translation of the letter represent your impressions of the letter when you read it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that is true, is it, of the other translations which we will introduce through you today? Is that true of all your translations?

Mrs. Paine. I am not sure of what you are inquiring.

Mr. Jenner. What I am inquiring about, others—as you related to me last night—other persons with the command of the Russian language.

Mrs. Paine. I had no help with the translations.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Other persons with their command of the Russian language might read one of Marina's letters and have at least, as to some words, an interpretation different from yours. What I am saying——

Mrs. Paine. In a minor regard, yes.

Mr. Jenner. It may be?

Mrs. Paine. But I believe the meaning would have been the same.

Mr. Jenner. But it is important to get your impressions, Mrs. Paine, of Marina's letters to you, despite what interpretations some other people might give to the same letter, and what I am seeking to emphasize is whether your translations are your impressions of those letters?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; but they are good translations.

Mr. Jenner. I don't mean to question that. We seek the impact of these notes upon you.

Mrs. Paine. I see. This is exactly what I understood them to mean, of course.

Mr. Jenner. That is fine.

Now, you received in May or on or about May, or shortly after May 25, 1963, another note from Marina Oswald, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. This was postmarked May 25.

Mr. Jenner. After you had taken her to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. This was the first letter I received from her from New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. And you have kindly produced the original of that letter for the Commission, have you not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. I am sorry, I have to have your answer aloud or I can't get it on the record.

The document you have produced is marked Commission Exhibit 408.

Do you recognize the handwriting of that note and of that envelope?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 408 for identification.)

Mrs. Paine. This is the handwriting of Marina Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Both documents?

Mrs. Paine. On both.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive—that is a letter, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. That is a letter.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. Is it on or about, did you receive it on or about the date it is postmarked?

Mrs. Paine. Shortly after, I would guess.

Mr. Jenner. I can see some handwriting written horizontally on the back of the envelope, is that handwriting yours or Marina's?

Mrs. Paine. That is mine.

Mr. Jenner. When did you place that handwriting on the reverse side?

Mrs. Paine. When I first read the letter and sought to understand it.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

And those notations are in Russian or in English?

Mrs. Paine. A word is given in Russian followed by a translation in English.

Mr. Jenner. As in the case of one of the earlier exhibits, did you place those notations on the reverse side of the envelope at the time you received the letter in the course of your attempting to interpret the letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And those notations were in the course of your doing that. Except for the notations on the reverse side of the envelope, is the letter and is the envelope, each in the same condition now as when you received it?

Mrs. Paine. No; I have made a few underlinings.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify any additions you placed on the original document, indicating the page, front or reverse side?

Mrs. Paine. I have marked "bind"——

Mr. Jenner. Is that b-i-n-d?

Mrs. Paine. Over one word.

Mr. Jenner. Have you written the word "bind"? Is that what you mean?

Mrs. Paine. B-i-n-d.

Mr. Jenner. And that is an interpretation, I take it of a word written in Russian underneath it.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that word then to you in English was "bind", b-i-n-d.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Anything else?

Mrs. Paine. I have written the word "thaw" and crossed it out; that was wrong.

Mr. Jenner. Meaning what, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. I had the wrong translation for that word. I realized it later.

Mr. Jenner. What was the word rather than——

Mrs. Paine. The meaning was "insists"; the rest of the markings by me are underlinings.

Mr. Jenner. I will cover those by asking you this. Were there any underlinings on the letter placed there by Marina Oswald at the time you received the letter?

Mrs. Paine. Only one, under this word here.

Mr. Jenner. That is on the reverse side of the second page of the letter?

Mrs. Paine. It is on the last page. The second page; yes.

Mr. Jenner. It is the reverse side of the second sheet of paper?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And it looks to help from her as though it is an arrow, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. There is an underline and then from the underlined word is an arrow.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408 the documents now so marked and identified by the witness.

Mr. McCloy. They may be admitted.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 407 and 408, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Would you retain that for a moment, please?

Mr. Dulles. May I ask, is the envelope 408A attached?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; and in the case of the earlier exhibit the envelope——

Mrs. Paine. It is only the second envelope we have had.

Mr. Jenner. The envelope accompanying Exhibit 404 was marked 404A, and the envelope now accompanying 408 is marked 408A.

Mr. McCloy. Is it so marked now?

Mr. Dulles. Do you wish me to mark it?

(The enevelope was marked Commission Exhibit 408A for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Have you supplied the Commission, Mrs. Paine, with your translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I have.

Mr. Jenner. And your interpretation and the effect or the impression that you had of that letter when you received it and as you read it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, turning to the first page, I would like to direct attention——

Mr. Dulles. Do you wish this back?

Mrs. Paine. No; I will look at the translation.

Mr. Jenner. She has supplied me with an interpretation. In the first paragraph it reads and I quote, and you follow me, please. I will read the whole paragraph:

"Here it is already a week since I received your letter. I can't produce any excuses as there are no valid reasons. I am ashamed to confess that I am a person of moods and my mood currently is such that I don't feel much like anything. As soon as you left all love stopped and I am very hurt that Lee's attitude toward me is such that I feel each minute that I bind him. He insists that I leave America which I don't want to do at all. I like America very much and I think that even without Lee I would not be lost here. What do you think?"

Had you had any discussion with Marina when you were in New Orleans on the subject matters which I have just read to you from the first paragraph of her letter, Commission Exhibit No. 408?

Mrs. Paine. There was no such discussion in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. What impact did this have on you, Mrs. Paine, when you received this letter and read that first paragraph?

Mrs. Paine. It was a repetition, or similar to something she had told me late in March, which I have already put on the record yesterday, saying basically that he wanted her to go back, wanted to send her back to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jenner. And to send her back alone, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That was the impression I carried.

Mr. Jenner. Was there ever any occassion, during all your acquaintance with the Oswalds, when there was any suggestion or implication that if she returned to Russia, at his request, that he would accompany her?

Mrs. Paine. There was no such suggestion.

Mr. Jenner. Was it always that she was to go to Russia alone?

Mrs. Paine. As she described it, it carried from her the feeling that she was being sent away.

Mr. Jenner. What about the little child, June?

Mrs. Paine. June with her.

Mr. Jenner. Was to accompany her to Russia. Now, the second paragraph, if I may:

"This is the basic question which doesn't leave me day or night. And again Lee has said to me that he doesn't love me. So you see we came to mistaken conclusions. It is hard for you and me to live without a return of our love interest gone. How would it all end?"

Had there been discussions between you and Marina Oswald on the subject of whether or not her husband had love for her, and in that area?

Mrs. Paine. What I particularly recall is what I mentioned yesterday, when he telephoned her and said he had found a job and wanted her to come——

Mr. Jenner. This was just before going to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Just before going to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. In the spring?

Mrs. Paine. Right. She said "Papa loves us," as I have testified. She had wondered to me during the 2 weeks previous whether he did, whether she loved him. But was clearly elated by his call and gradually came to her own conclusions. Really, I had no ground upon which to make a conclusion.

Mr. Dulles. She was speaking in Russian then to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, were you impressed that this paragraph, however, was not consistent with her immediate response at the time that telephone call had been made to her?

Mrs. Paine. It showed me there was not as much change as she had hoped.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion with her on this subject when you were in New Orleans, and when you took her or when you were taking her from Irving, Tex., to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever. When you were in New Orleans, Mrs. Paine, did you tour any night clubs?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you or Marina ever evidence any interest in touring Bourbon Street, for example?

Mrs. Paine. You are talking about the spring visit?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I am.

Mrs. Paine. We went to the French Quarter during the day.

Mr. Jenner. Please identify whom you include when you say "we."

Mrs. Paine. Lee, Marina, I, and three children.

Mr. Jenner. Did all of you, including Lee, go to the French Quarter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; we did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you tour the Bourbon Street areas, Royal Street, and the other areas?

Mrs. Paine. No; we did not.

Mr. Jenner. Will you tell us without any length—you did not. This was a tourist visit of the French Quarter, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In the day?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With the children?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said during the course of that tourist visit about visiting Bourbon Street at night rather than in the daytime?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that there was anything said.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion about Lee Oswald visiting or frequenting night clubs?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. Either in Dallas, or in New Orleans or in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. None; at any time.

Mr. Jenner. Did any one of you tour Bourbon Street at night during that spring visit?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Any discussion of the subject?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a subsequent occasion when you did visit Bourbon Street at night?

Mrs. Paine. In September, when I visited again in New Orleans. Shall I tell that?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; please, because there is a measure of contrast to that I would like to bring out.

Mrs. Paine. Marina and I and our three small children went down in the early evening and walked along the street.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us how that came about, whether Lee Oswald accompanied you?

Mrs. Paine. He did not accompany us. He was asked if he wanted to go, and he said he did not. Marina was interested in my seeing Bourbon Street at night simply as a tourist attraction.

Mr. Jenner. And you two girls took your children?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she take June?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You two girls walked down Bourbon Street?

Mrs. Paine. And one of us very pregnant.

Mr. Jenner. And observed everything from the outside. You didn't go inside any night clubs?

Mrs. Paine. No. In fact, when I realized we weren't permitted, we went on.

Mr. Jenner. You had small children?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion with Mr. Oswald at that time or with Marina which led you to form a judgment as to whether he was a man who might, or would, or had frequented night clubs?

Mrs. Paine. I judged he was not such a person.

Mr. Jenner. In all your experiences with the Oswalds from February, sometime in February 1963, even to the present date, had any mention been made of Lee Oswald frequenting night clubs?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. Or of Marina at any time?

Mrs. Paine. No mention of her.

Mr. Dulles. Did you get the impression when you made this trip that Marina had previously made the trip herself, that she seemed to know the surroundings?

Mrs. Paine. This occurs in the next paragraph of the letter she wrote in May, so I knew she had been herself.

Mr. Dulles. She had been there before?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. From the letter I judge with Lee accompanying her.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, if you will pardon me. Mr. Reporter, will you read the question?

(Question read.)

Mr. Jenner. Would you answer just that question?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. She did answer it.

Mr. Jenner. I didn't think she did.

Mr. Dulles. I think she said "yes."

Mr. Jenner. Now the letter of May 25th to you does make reference to visits to the French Quarter, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Gentlemen of the Commission, that portion of the letter reads as follows:

"Now a bit about the impressions I have received this week. Last Saturday we went to Aunt Lillian's"—Aunt Lillian, Mrs. Paine, is Lee Oswald's aunt?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Murret.

Mr. Jenner. "And leaving June with her we are at the lake. Lee wanted to catch crabs but caught nothing. I have a very high opinion of his relatives."

By the way, what was your opinion of his relatives?

Mrs. Paine. I met them only once. I thought them to be very nice.

Mr. Jenner. "Straightforward and kind people. To me they are very attentive. I like them. We have been to the French Quarter in the evening. It is a shame you didn't manage to get there in the evening. For me it was especially interesting as it was the first time in my life I had seen such. There were many night clubs there. Through the open doors were visible barrel covered dancing girls (so as not to say entirely unclothed). Most of them had really very pretty, rare figures and if one doesn't think about too many things then one can like them very much. There were a great many tourists there. For the most part very rich. We have been to the near park again."

That is all of that paragraph dealing with the nightclubs. Now, did you ever know a man or person by the name of Jack Rubinstein or Jack Ruby?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Prior to November 24, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear of any such individual?

Mrs. Paine. No, I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Had you frequented a nightclub in Irving or in Dallas prior to November 24, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Not at any time. In either town.

Mr. Jenner. You and your husband Michael were not in the habit of visiting, frequenting nightclubs?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. It is a fact, is it not, Mrs. Paine that neither you nor Mr. Paine attended nightclubs at all?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Is this true prior to your moving to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there anything that occurred during all these months of your acquaintance with the Oswalds that did or might have led you to any opinion as to Lee's frequenting of nightclubs or his acquaintance with nightclubs or his being intimate with nightclub people?

Mrs. Paine. During the entire time, is that your question?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Let us end the day for you for this purpose at November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. He was, I would say, actively disinterested in going down to Bourbon Street in the last weekend in September.

Mr. Jenner. But even prior to that time?

Mrs. Paine. It was the 21st.

Mr. Jenner. Had anything occurred by way of a remark at all that made an impression on you in the area of his being acquainted possibly with any nightclub people, any entertainers?

Mrs. Paine. There had been no hint of any sort that he was acquainted with nightclub people?

Mr. McCloy. Whether in Dallas, New Orleans or Irving?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. Of course, I had not talked to him a great deal up to the New Orleans trip. Then after that time there was also no hint or mention of any nightclub people. After that time in New Orleans he did refuse table wine at my home, so I got the impression of him as a person who didn't like to drink.

Mr. Jenner. During all your acquaintance with Lee Harvey Oswald, did you ever see him take a drink of spirits, intoxicating spirits?

Mrs. Paine. It is possible he had beer at the initial party on the 22d of February, that is as far as I can remember.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you have of him as a man of temperance?

Mrs. Paine. He teased Marina about liking wine as if it displeased him mildly.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You are talking in terms of conclusions which is all right with me if you will give me the specifics also. Could you give us an example or an occasion of what you have in mind?

Mrs. Paine. Well, at the same occasion when he refused the wine, she had some.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Did he say something that led you to say he was teasing her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe what that was?

Mrs. Paine. Indicating a mild disapproval.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate to the Commission your impression of Marina Oswald as a temperate person?

Mrs. Paine. She did not like liquors.

Mr. Jenner. What we would call hard liquor?

Mrs. Paine. Strong spirits.

Mr. Jenner. Strong spirits.

Mrs. Paine. But she did drink beer at my home, and did occasionally have wine.

Mr. Jenner. She occasionally had a bit of wine and she occasionally had some beer?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the extent of, as far as your personal knowledge is concerned, her indulgence in intoxicating spirits?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Does that likewise describe your indulgence or do you——

Mrs. Paine. I would also drink a cocktail on occasion.

Mr. Jenner. But very limited and just an occasional drink?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that likewise true of your husband, Michael?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Did Marina ever drink to excess?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly not that I ever heard about or saw.

Mr. Jenner. Not that you ever heard about or that you saw?

Mrs. Paine. Or saw.

Mr. Jenner. From your testimony that is certainly true with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. It is certainly true of him also.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you are concerned?

Mrs. Paine. As far as I am concerned.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I think you testified yesterday that Marina would assist you in your becoming more proficient in the Russian language by returning letters that you had written her, upon which she would place her comments of instruction or criticism or suggestion?

Mrs. Paine. Before she left for New Orleans in May, she offered to correct and send back any letters I wrote to her. In the correspondence which included some four letters with her altogether, there was only one of mine that was actually corrected and sent back and you have that.

Mr. Jenner. I have marked a three-page document as Commission Exhibit 409, and the envelope as Commission Exhibit 409A, the envelope being postmarked at New Orleans on June 6, 1963, and being addressed to Mrs. Ruth Paine.

Mrs. Paine. Do you want to make a separate designation for my return letter? You are looking at the letter which accompanied her letter.

Mr. Jenner. That document I will mark as Commission Exhibit——may I have permission, Mr. Chairman, to mark this document in my own hand because the sticker, I am afraid, will obliterate some of the letter.

Mr. McCloy. You may.

Mr. Jenner. I will mark this as 409B.

Now, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to identify 409, 409A, and 409B, the sequence in which they passed back and forth between you and Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. It includes, No. 409 is my letter to her dated the 1st of June, which she——

Mr. Jenner. 1963?

Mrs. Paine. 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Is that document, or do you recognize the handwriting on that document?

Mrs. Paine. That is my hand.

Mr. Jenner. Would you turn to the reverse side of the second page, third page. I see there is something on that in red crayon.

Mrs. Paine. All the red marks and the little bit in ballpoint pen are made by her.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I was seeking to bring out.

Mrs. Paine. At the end it includes a note of comments.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, the portion of the letter in blue ink in longhand is in whose handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. In my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. And the portion of the letter in red crayon on the reverse side of the third page is in whose handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Is in her handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. On the first page is there any of her handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. On the first page in blue ink, ballpoint pen there is some handwriting which is hers at the top.

Mr. Jenner. Those are notations in between the lines or in the margin?

Mrs. Paine. Above my writing. Yes; sir.

Mr. Jenner. They are comments of hers on your letter?

Mrs. Paine. And my spelling.

Mr. Jenner. Of your spelling?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do any of those markings appear other than on the face of the first sheet?

Mrs. Paine. In blue ink you are asking?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, I am.

Mrs. Paine. No. The rest is all in red.

Mr. Jenner. That then was a letter that you had sent to her?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Was it returned to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did some document which you now have before you accompany the letter on its return?

Mrs. Paine. Her letter dated June 5th.

Mr. Jenner. Which has been marked Commission Exhibit 409B?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you do recognize that handwriting as having been hers?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do.

Mr. Jenner. Of the two documents you have now identified, 409 and 409B, were they enclosed in an envelope?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they were.

Mr. Jenner. Is that envelope before you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. It is marked Commission Exhibit 409A?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Are all those conditions of documents in the condition which they were in when you received them?

Mrs. Paine. I have again added in my hand on her letter.

Mr. Jenner. That is 409B?

Mrs. Paine. Translations of certain of the words.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please, for the purpose of the record, identify what your handwriting is, on the letter 409B.

Mrs. Paine. It is above her words. Most of it is in English.

Mr. Jenner. That is in your hand?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Other than that, are the documents in the condition they were when you received them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. There is one interesting thing to me, Mrs. Paine, to which I would like to draw the attention of the Commission. And I direct your attention in this respect to Exhibits 404, 404A, 408, 408A, 409, and 409A. Each has an envelope addressed to you, and each is addressed written in English.

Is the handwriting on each of those envelopes Marina Oswald's?

Mrs. Paine. It is.

Mr. Jenner. She was then able to write some English, is that so?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please——

Mrs. Paine. She learned her own address.

Mr. Jenner. Did her command of the use of the English language, at least from the writing standpoint, extend beyond those examples?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my knowledge. I knew that she looked at signs and had learned the sound value of the English letters. That she looked at the Thursday supplement to the newspaper for the ads on vegetables and things with pictures on a can or something that showed the English of what it was, to try to determine what this word was and pronounce it.

Mr. Jenner. So she did acquire some command of English with respect to reading newspapers?

Mrs. Paine. It was not my impression that she could read a newspaper. She could pick out the sound values. It was not until October that I read with her a portion from Time magazine regarding Madam Nhu, whenever that was news, she asked me to read this to her and translate it. I read it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you read it in English first?

Mrs. Paine. I read it in English, giving translation of some of the words.

Mr. Jenner. As you went along?

Mrs. Paine. As I went along.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. But many of the words, English words, were words she understood, because they were either similar to the Russian or because she had learned them.

I was surprised at how much she understood when I pronounced it and read it to her.

Representative Ford. In English?

Mrs. Paine. In English. Because she was very hesitant to speak English with me, fearful that her pronunciation would not be correct. She would ask me several times, "How do I pronounce this," although she didn't think she was doing very well with the pronunciation, although she did well.

Mr. Jenner. She was sensitive in this respect, Mrs. Paine, she was hesitant to use the English language in the presence, say, of Americans or even the Russian emigré groups?

Mrs. Paine. I think most people are sensitive about using a language when the person they are with can understand them in the language they use better. She also talked with my immediate neighbor for a short time, when only she and the neighbor were present. I went to see about a child.

Mr. Jenner. Could your neighbor understand Russian?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. But there was a measure of communication?

Mrs. Paine. There was some communication, not a great deal. My neighbor told me after she saw Marina on television in January, whatever it was, "that girl has learned a great deal of English." She was amazed at the change.

Representative Ford. The improvement from October to January?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. How would you appraise her general intelligence, her level of intelligence for a girl of that age in the early twenties?

Mrs. Paine. I think she certainly had above average intelligence.

Representative Ford. What prompted her, if you know, to ask about Madam Nhu?

Mrs. Paine. She was interested in the family. She was worried about what Madam Nhu would do. Madam Nhu and the children still in her country. She wanted to know were these children going to come out either in Paris or the United States. She was concerned, and her concern for world affairs seemed to go this way, of what is this mother and children going to do.

Mr. Jenner. Was she concerned about the conflict between the North Vietnamese and the South Vietnamese?

Mrs. Paine. No; this didn't interest her, it didn't appear to.

Mr. Jenner. It was the human side rather than the political side?

Mrs. Paine. Strictly that.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you; that is what I wanted to bring out. I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Exhibits with those numbers, the documents marked Commission Exhibits 409, 409-A, and 409-B.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The documents referred to previously, marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 409, 409-A, and 409-B, were received in evidence.)

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, turning to this series of correspondence which has now been admitted in evidence, have you made an interpretation for the Commission of Exhibit 409-B?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Where does that appear on your summary you furnished to me last evening?

Mrs. Paine. That begins in the middle of page 6, marked second letter from New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Your interpretation of the letter dealing with the night club visit of the Oswalds, you have interpreted that for the Commission, and that appears on page what of your summary?

Mrs. Paine. That appears on page 3 marked first letter from New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Were you concerned about Mrs. Oswald, about Marina's condition and her receiving proper medical attention?

Mrs. Paine. I was very concerned about it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you write her at any time about it?

Mrs. Paine. I would like to refer you to my letter of June 1st which was returned in the document you just admitted in evidence.

Mr. Jenner. You did write her about it?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote particularly in that letter to Lee.

Mr. Jenner. You wrote both Lee and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. In this letter I addressed each, and a particular portion of that letter is in English.

Mr. Jenner. And that is Commission Exhibit No. 409?

Mrs. Paine. That was to Lee, that particular portion.

Mr. Jenner. You incorporated, did you not, in that letter, a direct communication to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I say in Russian a few words to Lee now about hospital and money.

Mr. Jenner. But incorporated in your note in that letter to Lee Oswald you used the English rather than the Russian language, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. I wanted to speak of things I couldn't say in Russian. I didn't have the vocabulary to do it with any ease in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. And further I particularly wanted to tell him I thought it important she get to a doctor and have prenatal care and felt he would be the one who actually got her there. It was his concern that would produce a visit to the doctor.

Mr. Jenner. I see. That explains that portion of the letter which is Commission Exhibit No. 409.

Mrs. Paine. 409.

Mr. Jenner. I won't go into the details, Mr. Chairman, because these are recommendations of Mrs. Paine for medical care of Marina Oswald.

Mr. McCloy. Do I understand you are going to read all of these into the record at the noon hour?

Mr. Jenner. At the noon hour I will read all of these into the record rather than do it now. Now you, last night, Mrs Paine, suggested to me you would like to make an explanation of this series of letters, and I direct your attention to page 7 of your notes.

Mrs. Paine. Well, the commentary on page 7 by me is——

Mr. Jenner. Refreshing your recollection from having read it, you would like to make a statement to the Commission and you may proceed to do so.

Mrs. Paine. It doesn't refresh me enough. I could say this. That when I received 409-B, her letter, I read it through. I glanced at 409, her corrected—my letter which she had corrected, and at the note at the back which began, "You write well" and assumed this to be commentary on my letter; it was not until I sat down nearly a month later to write a proper reply to her, I read this through more carefully and found in the middle of the paragraph discussing my writing a comment by her saying, "Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all."

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of the record there appears the red crayon to which I earlier drew your attention on the back of page 3.

Would you read that entire notation of hers so that the Commission may now know that to which you are now directing your attention?

Mrs. Paine. In the back of my letter she writes in red pencil, "You write well, when will I write that way in English. I think never. Very likely I will have to go back to Russia after all. A pity."

Mr. Dulles. What was the last?

Mrs. Paine. "A pity."

Mr. Jenner. I take it when you first read that notation on the back of the third page of the letter you had not noticed the sentence, "Very likely I will have to go to Russia after all. A pity."

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you proceed with your comment?

Mrs. Paine. This was early July when I read this letter more carefully and I was shocked that I hadn't noticed this. That my poor Russian made a scanning of the letter not adequate to picking that up, and I wrote her immediately apologizing for my bad understanding, and I don't have that letter, but I have three which followed it, and——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Do you have a draft, have you produced for the Commission your immediate preceding draft of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. I have no rough draft of my first letter explaining my shock and my worry at this statement of hers.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. But I have rough drafts of three letters I wrote subsequently.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever seen at any time a copy or the original of the letter that you wrote, a draft of which you do not have?

Mrs. Paine. No; I haven't.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate to the Commission your present recollection of the substance and content of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Much what I have said. That I apologized that my poor Russian didn't see this immediately and I inquired after her what she was doing, and asked to hear from her.

Mr. Jenner. You say, that sentence when you finally did read it rather shocked you. Would you rather—would you elaborate on that statement to the Commission? Why did that shock you?

Mrs. Paine. It seemed more final than anything else that had preceded. She had told me in March that he had asked her to go back, that she had written to the embassy but she didn't reply to the embassy when the embassy inquired why. It looked as though she was able to just say no by not doing anything about it. But this, on the other hand, looked as if she was resigned to the necessity to go back.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware at this time, Mrs. Paine, that Lee had applied to the State Department for a passport and had obtained one?

Mrs. Paine. No; I was not aware of that.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first become aware of that, if you ever did?

Mrs. Paine. It was considerably after the assassination, and I read it in a paper. I still don't remember what time or day it was.

Mr. Jenner. Now, did you write Marina on or about the 11th of July?

Mrs. Paine. I have a rough draft of that date.

Mr. Jenner. I hand you a document of two pages which has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 410.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 410 for identification.)

Would you please tell us what that document is?

Mrs. Paine. This is the rough draft, to which I just referred, written to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. And you thereupon prepared the final draft and sent it?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. This represents, does it not, your best recollection of the contents of the letter, the letter in its final form as you transmitted it to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I think this is probably a very accurate representation of the letter in its final form. It was the first time I put on paper an invitation to her to come and stay with me for anything more than a few weeks around the birth of the baby.

Mr. Jenner. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of your letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And that appears at the bottom of page 7 of your notes which you have supplied to me?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention, if I may, and the attention of the Commission as interpreted by Mrs. Paine, the first sentence reads, "Dear Marina, if Lee doesn't wish to live with you any more and prefers that you go to the Soviet Union, think about the possibility of living with me."

You just said—is that the portion of your letter which you say this is the first invitation you made to Marina to come to live with you generally?

Mrs. Paine. This was the first written invitation.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. I had made an informal invitation face to face when she was staying the first week in May, but felt as I made it that she didn't take this seriously.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you go on in your letter and you make reference, for example, to—let's take the second paragraph of your letter appearing at the top of page 8 of your notes, "You know I have long received from my parents, I live dependent a long time. I would be happy to be an aunt to you and I can. We have sufficient money. Michael will be glad. This I know. He just gave me $500 for the vacation or something necessary. With this money it is possible to pay the doctor and hospital in October when the baby is born, believe God. All will be well for you and the children. I confess that I think that the opportunity for me to know you came from God. Perhaps it is not so but I think and believe so."

Had you discussed this matter with your husband?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I had.

Mr. Jenner. And you were still living separate and apart at that time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But I felt so long as I was not yet earning, he would be the one, in fact, who was supporting all of us.

Mr. Jenner. I think the Commission might be interested in that. You were not taking this action, either in the earlier stage in the early spring or in the summer of inviting Marina to live with you without discussing that with your husband even though you and your husband at that time were separated?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did you do anything, Mrs. Paine, in this connection with respect to keeping Lee Oswald informed of your invitations and your communications in this area with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote into the letter that I hoped—well you might just read the last paragraph.

Mr. Jenner. Would you mind reading it?

Mrs. Paine. I will read it, the last paragraph in the letter, and I might say that the entire letter I wrote with the possibility in mind that he should see this.

Mr. Jenner. Did you desire that he do see it?

Mrs. Paine. I wanted him to—her to feel free to show it to him. I didn't want her to come to my house if this offended or injured him, if this was in some way——

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Divisive?

Mrs. Paine. If he did in fact want to keep his family together, I certainly wanted him to, but if the bulk of his feelings lay on the side of wanting to be away, separated from Marina, then I thought it was legitimate for him to have that alternative, although it was not legitimate for him to simply send her back if she didn't want to go.

Mr. Jenner. Send her back where?

Mrs. Paine. To the Soviet Union, if she didn't want to go. So in this light I will read the last paragraph of Commission Exhibit 410:

"I don't want to hurt Lee with this invitation to you. Only I think that it would be better that you and he do not live together if you do not receive happiness. I understand how Michael feels. He doesn't love me and wants a chance to look for another life and another wife. He must do this, it seems, and so it is better for us not to live together. I don't know how Lee feels. I would like to know. Surely things are hard for him now, too. I hope that he would be glad to see you with me where he can know that you and the children will receive everything that is necessary and he would not need to worry about it. Thus he could start life again."

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, having all this in mind and what you have testified to up to now, would you please tell the gentlemen of the Commission the factors and motivations you had in inviting Marina to come live with you; first to have her baby, next on a more extended scale, all of the factors that motivated you in your offer, in your own words?

Mrs. Paine. The first invitation, just to come for a few weeks at the time of the birth is a simpler question, I will answer that first.

I felt that she would need someone simply to take care of her older child for the time that she was in the hospital, and that things would be easier for her if she didn't have to immediately take up the full household chores upon returning from the hospital. This was a very simple offer.

Mr. Jenner. That was all that motivated you at that time?

Mrs. Paine. Now, in asking her to come and stay for a more extended period, I had many feelings. I was living alone with my children, at that time, had been since the previous fall, nearly a year, at the time this letter is written. I had no idea that my husband might move back to the house. I was tired of living alone and lonely, and here was a woman who was alone and in a sense also, if Lee, in fact didn't want to be with her, and further she was a person I liked. I had lived with her 2 weeks in late April and early May. I enjoyed her company.

Further, being able to talk Russian with her added a wider dimension to my rather small and boring life as a young mother. I didn't want to go out and get a job because I wanted to be home with my children, but on the other hand, I saw a way to, and that is part of what studying Russian altogether is for me, a way to make my daily life more interesting. I also felt when I first heard in March that Lee was wanting to send Marina back, that is how it was presented to me, that it just seemed a shame that our country couldn't be a more hospitable thing for her if she wanted so much to stay, that I thought she should have that opportunity.

I was pleased that she liked America, and thought that she should have a chance to stay here and raise her children here as she wished.

I might say also if I had not been living alone I would not have undertaken such an invitation. My house is small and it wouldn't have gone with married life.

Mr. Jenner. I wanted to afford you that opportunity. Now, you have related all the factors that motivated you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 410 the document which has been so identified.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, previously marked as Commission Exhibit No. 410 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. McCloy. We have been going for an hour and a half. If you would like to have a recess you may have it.

Mrs. Paine. I am all right.

Mr. McCloy. All right, we will go on then.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned in the course of your explanation earlier a series of three letters. I hand you a draft of letter dated July 12, 1963, addressed to Dear Marina, consisting of two pages, which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 411. And another one-page letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibit No. 412.

In whose handwriting is each of those exhibits?

Mrs. Paine. Each of these are in my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. And they are drafts, are they?

Mrs. Paine. They are.

Mr. Jenner. And you would then, after making those drafts put them in final form?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did you transmit the final draft of letter to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I mailed them to her address in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Have you supplied me with your translation of both of those drafts?

Mrs. Paine. I have.

Mr. Jenner. Each draft is in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the interpretations appearing at the bottom of page 8 and the bottom of page 9 are the material you supplied me and they consist of your interpretations of those letters or translations, rather?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. They are dated respectively July 12 and July 14.

Mr. Jenner. I hand you a picture copy rather than a photostatic copy of a two-page letter dated July 14, 1963, and a translation of that letter which we will mark as Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414, respectively.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 413 and 414 for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to Exhibit 413, would you tell us what that is?

Mrs. Paine. This appears to be a photograph of the letter I then wrote from my final draft and sent to Marina, dated the 14th of July.

Mr. Jenner. So that Exhibit No. 413 is the——

Mrs. Paine. 413, the photograph.

Mr. Jenner. 413 is to the best of your recollection an actual picture of your final draft letter as transmitted to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now directing your attention to page 10 of the material that you supplied me, and which you discussed with me last evening, you wished to make a statement to the Commission with respect to this letter, do you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Would you please proceed to do so?

Mrs. Paine. I think it would be easier if I read what is here.

Mr. Jenner. Any way you want to handle it, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. Marina stayed with me 2 weeks in the spring as you know, and I realized then what a proud and capable person she is. She was not accustomed to accept help from others, and I knew that her pride and independence would be a stumbling block to her accepting help even though she needed it.

I respected her for this and somehow I wanted to ease such acceptance for her, and to explain that the situation I proposed would be a situation of mutual help. I hoped—now I should say that in Commission Exhibit——

Mr. Jenner. They are to your right on the table.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; 411 and 412, I mentioned that if she were counted as a dependent on Michael's income tax his yearly payment to the government would be reduced by a certain amount, and that by that amount she—we could very nearly live—her expenses could very nearly come under this, so it would be more a case of breaking even than a case of her accepting so much as she might think from us. But I think that in fact this reference to the tax reduction did not encourage her, as I had hoped.

Mr. Jenner. It wasn't quite correct either, was it, Mrs. Paine?

(Laughter.)

Mrs. Paine. Did I get a chance to read the second letter as written at 2 a.m. and I was hopeful only more than——

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I think the members of the Commission and also you from our talk last night, are interested in your letters which you have now identified suggesting financial arrangements to Mrs. Oswald, since to one who might read them without knowing the background they might seem crass.

Mrs. Paine. I felt crass in Russian, particularly.

Mr. Jenner. I was not thinking in terms of your difficulty in communicating with her, but you had no selfish or ulterior financial motive, did you, in this connection?

Mrs. Paine. Did it appear that?

Mr. Jenner. It might.

Mrs. Paine. Even with such bad arithmetic.

Mr. Jenner. Your arithmetic was all right. Your interpretation of the law was not as good as it might be.

Mr. Dulles. Am I not correct, I understood you were trying to make her feel she was not going to be a burden to you?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Dulles. And were using certain subterfuges to accomplish that; that is the impression I got from what you said.

Mrs. Paine. That is absolutely correct. That I hoped, and further I would say in the letters to her I made reference that this money not paid to the government would be therefore available for spending money for her. I had put myself in her position and thought wouldn't it be terrible to have to ask for a nickel for a package of Lifesavers every time you wanted it, and thought I wouldn't want to be in such a situation if she doesn't have her own, something she can count upon as her own money, it would be unbearable to her.

So I tried to cast about both for a way of making her feel that this would not be a burden to us, and a way of getting her petty cash in the pocket that she would not feel was a handout. So that it would be a legitimate possibility for her to consider.

I judge that my effort in this regard, besides the bad understanding of the tax law and the poor arithmetic, didn't help because of her following letter.

Mr. Jenner. That is what I was coming to. Before we get to that, Mrs. Paine, I direct your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 414.

Mrs. Paine. 414?

Mr. Jenner. That is a translation of your letter, Commission Exhibit No. 413. Have you read that translation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything in the translation to which you might desire to take exception or at least make a comment?

(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mrs. Paine. One minute. Yes, it accurately reflects some of my bad Russian.

Mr. Jenner. You take no exception to the translation?

Mrs. Paine. I think no.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, if you please, I offer in evidence, Mr. Dulles, may I have those exhibits——

Mr. McCloy. They may be admitted.

Mr. Jenner. As Commission Exhibits 411, 412, 413 and 414, the documents that had been so marked?

Mr. McCloy. They will be admitted.

(The documents referred, previously marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 411, 412, 413, and 414, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. You did receive a response from Marina, did you not, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And is the response the document now handed to you marked Commission Exhibit No. 415?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of that letter and that translation——

Mrs. Paine. 415 is that what you said?

Mr. Jenner. 415. It appears on pages 10, 11, and 12 of the material you supplied me.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You don't have an envelope but you have a letter.

Mrs. Paine. I don't have an envelope. I don't know what happened to it.

Mr. Jenner. Is the exhibit in Marina Oswald's handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything on the exhibit other than that in the handwriting of Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. There are a few underlinings on the page marked four.

Mr. Jenner. Who placed them there?

Mrs. Paine. Which are my own.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Anything else?

Mrs. Paine. Except for the underlining "he does not know" at the very bottom.

Mr. Jenner. "He" refers to whom?

Mrs. Paine. Lee.

Mr. Jenner. You were about to state to the Commission Marina Oswald's reaction to your series of invitations. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you proceed then?

Mrs. Paine. As reflected in this letter. This was the third letter I received from her after a space of over a month, and I had been very concerned about her. I was much relieved to get it. She said she had been to the doctor and her condition was normal. She responded to this series of four letters of which we have three in rough draft, saying—shall I read in some of the things said?

Mr. Jenner. To the extent that you desire to do so. We will not read the whole letter, it is quite long; that which is pertinent to what you have in mind.

Mrs. Paine. Well, that for a considerable period Lee has been good to her, she writes. He talks a lot about the coming baby.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps you might pick out—there are only about four sentences.

Mrs. Paine. "He has become more attentive and we hardly quarrel".

Mr. Jenner. This indicates a change somewhat in relationship and would you please read that portion of the letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Could we have the date of this letter once again?

Mrs. Paine. The date of the letter. We have no date on the letter. It was written somewhere between July 18 and July 21, which is the date of my reply.

Mr. Jenner. That is how you identify it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. This is 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Right. Again, "He has become much more attentive and we hardly quarrel. True I have to give in a great deal. It could not be otherwise. But if one wants peace then it is necessary to give in. We went to the doctor, my condition is normal."

And she thanks me for the invitation and thanks Michael also and says:

"I would try to take advantage of it if things really become worse, if Lee becomes coarse with me again and treats me badly."

Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention to the paragraph following that one, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. Now another question:

"If as is possible it becomes necessary for me to come to live with you in order to say that I am a dependent of Michael's surely it would be necessary to have an official divorce, isn't that so? But I think Lee would not agree to a divorce, and to go simply from him to become a burden to you that I don't wish. Surely Michael would need to have a paper showing that I am living at his expense but no one would just take his word for it, right?"

And I realized much later that in the Soviet Union you don't do anything without the proper papers, and just having a person under your roof for anyone to see, having them in fact eating at your table is not, would not be, sufficient proof—would not be sufficient there in Russia.

Representative Boggs. It might not be here.

Mrs. Paine. It might not be here. Well, in any case I judged she felt, reading my invitations this was of some importance to me whether Michael counted her as a deduction, and so on, whereas in fact this wasn't the point at all, but that I had hoped to somehow make, if possible, for her to accept such help.

Mr. Jenner. Have you finished your observations?

Representative Boggs. As a matter of fact, there are certain limitations under our law as to how you can claim a dependent.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I asked a few people who didn't know much about it before I wrote it.

Representative Boggs. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The tenor then of this letter was as I gather from your testimony and as you have related to me last evening whether she would come to live with you in the fall or generally was something which now became subject to reconsideration?

Mrs. Paine. Pardon?

Mr. Jenner. The matter of her coming to live with you, the possibility of her living with you on a more extended basis than——

Mrs. Paine. Was an invitation I had made to her.

Mr. Jenner. And that her response was not acceptance but one that she would now defer?

Mrs. Paine. It was a "thank you" and a refusal basically.

Mr. Jenner. Did you respond to that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did. My letter is dated July 12.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Liebeler will mark that Commission Exhibit 416, which consists of how many pages, Mr. Liebeler, three pages. You have that exhibit. Is that exhibit all in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the draft of letter to which you have reference being your response to Marina's letter of——

Mrs. Paine. Undated letter.

Mr. Jenner. Undated letter which would be somewhere just prior to July 21?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. And is that a draft of letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. I have.

Mr. Jenner. We will mark as Commission Exhibits 417 and 418 two exhibits, the first being a one-page exhibit entitled "Translation from Russian", and the second being a four page photograph of what appears to be a letter dated July 21, 1963. Directing your attention to Exhibit 418.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you find it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please identify that exhibit? It consists of four pages.

Mrs. Paine. It appears to be a photograph of my letter to her of July 21.

Mr. Jenner. Having observed it and looked at it last night, is it your best recollection at the moment that it is a photograph of the letter that you actually transmitted to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to the next exhibit which is No. 418——

Mrs. Paine. 417, you are talking about the translation.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a translation of the letter, of your letter to her?

Mrs. Paine. That is far from complete.

Representative Ford. It is far from complete?

Mrs. Paine. Far from complete. It is incomplete.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to have you make then, directing your attention to the translation that has been supplied us.

Mrs. Paine. It goes as far as two-thirds down on page 2, you must have more somewhere.

Mr. Jenner. No; that is all we have. Would you mark with this red marker pen the point to which Exhibit 417 is a translation?

Mrs. Paine. Here.

Mr. Jenner. Is the translation accurate up to that point or rather do you have any exceptions to it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In relation to what?

Mrs. Paine. "This would" on the next to the last paragraph "this would offend my father very much." "This hurt my father", no subjunctive to it.

Mr. Jenner. Do it this way. Read what is on it, what the interpreter——

Mrs. Paine. Wait.

Mr. Jenner. Said.

Mrs. Paine. I guess that is just the interpreter trying to "offer you an alternative". State the question again. You want to know if I take any exception to the translation I have before me, this portion of my July 21 letter? They are all small.

Mr. Jenner. They are small and none of consequence.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. So far as you are concerned. Your translation, however, that you supplied the Commission is as far as you are concerned accurate and what you intend to say, at least?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and I think it is what I said.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I offer in evidence, if the Chairman please, the documents that have been marked—may I have them please, Representative Ford?

Mrs. Paine. These, too?

Mr. Jenner. Documents marked 415, 416, 417, and 418.

Mr. McCloy. Do I understand there is not a complete translation?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. McCloy. Of the letter. It is an incomplete translation?

Mrs. Paine. There is a page 2 somewhere.

Mr. Jenner. That is correct. During the noon hour I will see if that is not a mistake and if I can be supplied with the balance, if there is a balance.

Mr. McCloy. They may be admitted in this form and then you can advise us after the recess whether there is anything additional to insert at this point.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 415, 416, 417, and 418, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, there is a matter to which I would like to draw your attention in your letter of July 21, which is Commission Exhibit No. 416, the last portion of it, and I direct your attention, in turn, to your own interpretation appearing at page 3. The last paragraph, when you brought Marina to New Orleans, did you do anything by way of seeking to have people in New Orleans visit her?

Mrs. Paine. No. I have already testified that after an initial warm greeting with Lee, they quarreled, and I was uncomfortable there, and wanted to get back home. I had thought of making contact for Marina with someone in the Russian speaking community in New Orleans, and later when I didn't hear from her after this note that looks like "I will have to go back to Russia after all," I much regretted that I had not made some contact for her, someone she could talk to, herself. And anxious, not having heard from her a month from the time of this appendage to my corrected letter, I telephoned Ruth Kloepfer who is the clerk of the Quaker Meeting in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Would you spell her name, please?

Mrs. Paine. She is not someone I know. That is spelled K-L-O-E-P-F-E-R, and I asked her if she knew any Russians in New Orleans. She did not. I then wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, when you use the pronoun "she" there you asked Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I asked Mrs. Kloepfer if she knew any Russian-speaking people and described why I was interested in knowing. I must have given her the address of Marina, probably asked that she go and see her. In any case, I have a letter which followed that telephone call, which I wrote to Mrs. Paul Blanchard.

Mr. McCloy. Pardon me, did you say you telephoned to Mrs. Blanchard or you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote to Mrs. Blanchard, I had originally telephoned to Mrs. Kloepfer.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make the telephone call when you were in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. No; this was when I was concerned. I had not heard from Marina for a month. I did not know whether she was in good health or had gone back to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jenner. So you called Mrs. Kloepfer in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. After having tried to call the Murrets. I had not had their name accurately.

Representative Boggs. How did you happen to write to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. Paine. She is the secretary of the Unitarian Church in New Orleans and I called the Quaker Church in Dallas to find out who was in New Orleans of the Quakers, and then I called the Unitarian Church which my husband belongs to in Dallas to find out who the secretary of the New Orleans Unitarian Church was.

Representative Boggs. You do not know Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. Paine. I did not know her, and I did not know Mrs. Kloepfer either, and appended to this that I am leaving with the Commission is my carbon of a letter to Mrs. Blanchard of the Unitarian Church, which I sent in carbon to Mrs. Kloepfer so each would know what the other was doing in an effort to find a Russian-speaking person who could be a contact for Marina.

(At this point Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you have now mentioned a letter that you wrote to Mrs. Blanchard; have you supplied the Commission with a carbon copy of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. I have.

Mr. Jenner. And it is a two-page document, Mr. Chairman, dated July 18, 1963, now marked as Commission Exhibit 419. That exhibit has now been handed to you, Mrs. Paine. Is that the carbon copy of your letter to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. You did not know Mrs. Blanchard, had never heard of her prior to the time you wrote the letter?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. It begins saying, "Mrs. Philip Harper, the secretary of the Dallas Unitarian Church, suggested I write to you when I told her of the following problem."

Mr. Jenner. Is the document in the same condition now as it was when you prepared the original of which that is a carbon copy?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 419 the document which has been so identified.

Mr. McCloy. It may be so admitted.

(The document referred to was marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 419 and received in evidence.)

Mrs. Paine. Will there be any difficulty that it starts with typing and then it goes carbon?

Mr. Jenner. Explain that.

Mrs. Paine. I wrote two carbon paragraphs and then I thought I should write a carbon of this to Mrs. Blanchard and put in a carbon and then in my own copy put in typing.

Mr. Jenner. So that which appears to be a copy is an original and that which follows, what appears to be original, is an actual carbon copy of the letter you actually sent to Mrs. Blanchard?

Mrs. Paine. With copy stated here to Mrs. Kloepfer.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear from Marina on that subject at any time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. In her succeeding and last letter that I got from her.

Mr. Jenner. Her succeeding letter is dated what?

Mrs. Paine. It has no date inside. It is postmarked August 11 from New Orleans and sent to me while I was on vacation.

Mr. Jenner. We have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 420 the envelope and attached to 420 is what purports to be a four-page letter in Russian longhand—may we have this as a group exhibit consisting of the envelope and the four-page letter?

Mr. McCloy. If it is properly attached I guess you can.

Mrs. Paine. There is no date on the letter, if they separate you don't know what it is.

Mr. Jenner. We have marked the four-page letter as Commission Exhibit 421 in order to avoid any difficulty.

Directing your attention to Exhibit 421, do you recognize the handwriting on that exhibit?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is Marina Oswald's handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. That is a letter to you, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And you supplied the Commission with your translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. That appears at pages 13 and 14 of the materials you furnished me?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; with the exception of an addition in my handwriting on the bottom of unmarked page 3.

Mr. Jenner. Would you read that?

Mrs. Paine. Which is a translation of one word.

Mr. Jenner. What word is that?

Mrs. Paine. A word means to grow downcast.

Mr. Dulles. I didn't catch that.

Mrs. Paine. To grow downcast, to lose courage.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to the envelope which is marked Commission Exhibit 420.

Mrs. Paine. I want to make one other comment. I underlined the word on the second page that I have translated as "winsome."

Mr. Jenner. W-i-n-s-o-m-e?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. The other underlinings in her letter are her own.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Directing your attention to the pink envelope which is Commission Exhibit No. 420, was Exhibit 421 enclosed in Exhibit 420?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was.

Mr. Jenner. That also is in English, that is the address?

Mrs. Paine. The address is in English, addressed to me while on vacation.

Mr. Jenner. And you received those documents in due course?

Mrs. Paine. Which documents?

Mr. Jenner. You received the documents in due course?

Mrs. Paine. It was not forwarded. It was addressed to me where I was.

Mr. Jenner. But you received them is all I am asking?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibits 420 and 421, the documents which have been so marked.

Mr. McCloy. They may be so admitted.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 420 and 421 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. There is one item in Exhibit 421 to which I wish to direct your attention. On the last page about the third paragraph from the bottom appears the second sentence, "Lee doesn't have work now already three weeks." Do you find that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any information prior to the receipt of this letter that Lee Oswald no longer was employed in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. I had no such information.

Mr. Jenner. This was your first information?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you respond to that letter?

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. I have a five-page document Mr. Liebeler is identifying as Commission Exhibit No. 422.

Mrs. Paine. This is not what you want. You want my reply, don't you next?

Mr. Jenner. That is right.

Mrs. Paine. This is not it. You have my reply but I had had no copy of that.

Mr. Jenner. We will keep that exhibit number. There has been identified as Commission Exhibit 423 an exhibit consisting of four pages, the first three of which are a photograph of a letter, and the last page of which is a photograph of an envelope. Handing you Commission Exhibit No. 423, is that a picture of your letter to Marina Oswald in response to her letter of August 11?

Mrs. Paine. August 11. Yes; it is dated August 24, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. And you do recognize that as being a picture copy of letter you had written?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you supplied the Commission with a translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not. I did not have this in rough draft. I had no copy of this. You may have a translation but I do not.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. I supplied you only on this summary that you have with a brief recollection of what it contained.

Mr. Jenner. I now hand you a document, Commission Exhibit No. 424 consisting of two pages which purports to be a translation of Exhibit 423. Did you review that translation with me last evening?

Mrs. Paine. Briefly.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection at the moment of what you said last night that the translation is of Exhibit 423?

Mrs. Paine. It is approximately what I recall writing. I didn't look at the Russian in your pictures.

Mr. Jenner. During the noon recess would you wish to look at that and if you have any exception you wish to take to the translation would you please state it to the Commission?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. May I intervene at this point about Exhibit 422, has that been properly identified?

Mrs. Paine. No; not yet.

Mr. Jenner. Could we return it to the witness? Exhibit 422 is in whose handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. It is in my handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a draft of a letter?

Mrs. Paine. That is a letter which I wrote but never sent.

Mr. Jenner. You testified about that letter yesterday?

Mrs. Paine. I did.

Mr. Jenner. Did you not?

Mrs. Paine. It is dated April 7.

Mr. Jenner. Have you supplied the Commission with a translation, your translation of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have with appropriate paragraph before it saying that it was not sent, that I wrote it not necessarily to send or give to her but simply to have, I think as I testified yesterday, the words at my command ready in case it seemed appropriate to make such an invitation.

Mr. Jenner. And this was prepared on or about April 7, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. I would judge on the 7th.

Mr. Jenner. Is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed writing it?

Mrs. Paine. I have added since completing writing, I have added in pencil at the top, "not sent" in English. It is otherwise the same.

Mr. Jenner. I won't go into that further, Mr. Chairman, because the witness did testify about it yesterday other than to offer the document in evidence.

Mr. McCloy. I simply thought it needed a little elaboration.

Mr. Jenner. You were quite right, sir.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 422 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Where were you in the summer of 1963?

Mrs. Paine. May I interrupt.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Did you want to make any reference to the reference to Lee's driving in Exhibit 424?

Mr. Jenner. Thank you very much, Mrs. Paine, and I do want to go into it.

Mrs. Paine. I have it underlined.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Dulles, would you be good enough to let me have it? This translation which appears as Commission Exhibit 424, the fourth paragraph reads "Lee told me that he learned a little from his Uncle how to drive a car. It would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day."

Mrs. Paine. I might make a comment about that.

Mr. Jenner. This is your comment, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. I might make a comment about that.

Mr. Jenner. This is your comment, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. I wrote that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the Commission is very interested in the subject matter of Mr. Oswald, of Lee Oswald being able to drive a car and I think it might be well if we covered the whole subject from the beginning to the end.

Would you give the Commission your full, most accurate recollection of this whole subject? Start at the very beginning.

Mrs. Paine. I think I learned either in March or April that Lee——

Mr. Jenner. Of 1963?

Mrs. Paine. 1963.

Mr. Jenner. This would be early in your acquaintance with him?

Mrs. Paine. Very early. I learned Lee was not able to drive and didn't have a license.

Mr. Jenner. How did you learn he was not able to drive?

Mrs. Paine. I think it was related to his looking for work the first time in the middle of April, and I had learned he had looked in the Dallas area for work.

Mr. Jenner. How did you learn it?

Mrs. Paine. We were talking about it.

Mr. Jenner. You were talking with Lee?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he tell you that he was not able to drive a car?

Mrs. Paine. That he had never learned how.

Mr. Jenner. That he had difficulty in getting around?

Mrs. Paine. Simply he had never learned how.

Mr. Jenner. He said this to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And I felt immediately that his job opportunities, the jobs to which he could have applied, and the jobs to which he could get himself would be greatly broadened if he were able to drive and said so.

Mr. Jenner. You said that to him?

Mrs. Paine. And said that to him. Then when we arrived in New Orleans he said to me by way of almost pride that he had been allowed by his uncle to drive his uncle's car.

Mr. Jenner. That is Mr. Murret?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know whether there was more than one.

Mr. Jenner. But he volunteered the statement to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it was something that had occurred after he had gotten to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. And he was in a sense pleased to report to me that he was getting some experience driving. That his uncle had permitted him to drive the car on the street.

Mr. Jenner. On the street?

Mrs. Paine. On the street.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion while you were in New Orleans to verify that in any respect whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Or have it verified to you?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. This was confined to a remark that he made to you?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. Then when I learned in Marina's letter of August 11 that Lee was out of work, I immediately thought it would be well for him to make use of those free weekdays, not only for job hunting but for learning the skill of driving and, therefore, that paragraph—shall we read it?

Mr. Jenner. Haven't I already read it?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. You mean from your letter?

Mrs. Paine. Did you read that?

Mr. Jenner. The paragraph "Lee told me that he learned a little from his uncle how to drive a car."

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you read that "It would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day."

Just to be certain of this, Mrs. Paine, this was a remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald when you brought Marina from Irving, Tex., to New Orleans, and——

Mrs. Paine. The second week in May.

Mr. Jenner. The second week in May of 1963. And then, according to the remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald that his uncle had permitted him to drive his uncle's car on the street in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and he was proud of this.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ask at that time or any time while you were in New Orleans in the spring to drive your car?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion at all during—did you have the feeling that he would like to drive the car?

Mrs. Paine. There was no discussion of it.

Mr. Jenner. Did he demonstrate to you that he could drive?

Mrs. Paine. There was no discussion of it.

Mr. Jenner. You have given us all that occurred in New Orleans by way of conversation or otherwise on the subject of Lee Harvey Oswald driving an automobile or his ability to drive?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you are telling us the whole story on this subject. So when next——

Senator Cooper. May I ask this one question?

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me.

Senator Cooper. Did Lee Oswald identify the uncle who permitted him to drive his car?

Mrs. Paine. Senator Cooper, he did not. He just said his uncle. He did not identify his uncle by name.

Senator Cooper. Do you know of your own knowledge who the uncle was?

Mrs. Paine. I can only assume.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I can only assume it was the uncle he had been staying with. He had been staying at his home.

Mr. Jenner. You had met the uncle at this time?

Mrs. Paine. Just met him.

Mr. Jenner. So it was the uncle with whom he had been staying just before he obtained the apartment at Magazine?

Mr. McCloy. What is the uncle's name?

Mr. Jenner. Dutz Murret. This was the relative who had the nice home that Marina first saw when she arrived there and thought maybe that is where she was going to live, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. You want all other references to driving?

Mr. Jenner. Confining yourself to his ability to drive automobiles, when next, and take it in chronological order as to when you next recall it?

Mrs. Paine. It came up next after he returned to the Dallas area in October.

Mr. Jenner. When was that?

Mrs. Paine. After he returned on the 4th, to my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. The 4th of October?

Mrs. Paine. That was the first I know.

Mr. Jenner. We will get into the reasons and the circumstances but you stick with the automobile incidents.

Mrs. Paine. He was looking for work.

Mr. Jenner. In Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. In the Dallas area and again, of course, I felt that he could find more jobs, be eligible for more if he could drive.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do about it?

Mrs. Paine. I recalled that I had a copy of the regulations for driving, what you need to know to pass the written test.

Mr. Jenner. In what State?

Mrs. Paine. In the State of Texas, and I gave him that booklet.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a discussion with him about your desire, your recommendation, that he qualify to drive an automobile in Texas so it would assist him in connection with his job hunting.

Mrs. Paine. Probably. We certainly had conversation about it.

Mr. Jenner. Give us the subject of the conversation in terms of recommendations by you, or what did you say?

Mrs. Paine. I again recommended, as I had in the spring, that he learn to drive.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mrs. Paine. He was interested in learning to drive.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything to you?

Mrs. Paine. I would like to offer to the Commission something we didn't get to last night.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. Which is a letter I wrote to my mother, which she just showed me recently, she just found it recently, which makes reference to the date I first gave him a lesson in driving.

Mr. Jenner. That would be helpful to us. May I have the letter, please?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Now only a portion of it is applicable.

Mr. Jenner. Why don't we give it a number?

Mrs. Paine. Another portion is applicable in another connection, which I would like especially to bring up.

Mr. Jenner. Having that in mind, we will give that document for identification at the moment only, the number Commission Exhibit No. 425.

I won't identify it beyond that for the moment because the witness will be using it to refresh her recollection.

Mrs. Paine. I will read what applies here.

Mr. Jenner. You are now reading from Commission Exhibit No. 425.

Mrs. Paine. Which is a letter dated October 14, in my hand, from me to my mother.

Mr. Dulles. Would you give your mother's name?

Mrs. Paine. Her name is Mrs. Carol Hyde.

Representative Boggs. Where does she live?

Mrs. Paine. In Columbus, Ohio. It was likely written to Oberlin, where she was a student at that time.

"If Lee can just find work that will help so much. Meantime I started giving him driving lessons last Sunday (yesterday). If he can drive this will open up more job possibilities and more locations."

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I want to comment too on the nature of this lesson.

Mr. Jenner. The Commission will be interested in that but you go ahead.

Mrs. Paine. Now?

Mr. Jenner. Go right ahead.

Mrs. Paine. I knew that he had not even a learner's permit to drive. I wasn't interested in his driving on the street with my car until he had such. But on Sunday the parking lot of a neighboring shopping center was empty, and I am quite certain that is where the driving lesson took place.

Mr. Jenner. That is your best present recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Now I recall this also, and it is significant. I offered him a lesson and intended to drive him to this area for him to practice. He, however, started the car.

Mr. Jenner. He got in and started the car?

Mrs. Paine. He got in and started the car so that I know he was able to do that and wanted to drive on the street to the parking lot.

Mr. Jenner. He wanted to?

Mrs. Paine. He wanted to. I said, "My father is an insurance man and he would never forgive me."

Mr. Jenner. Your father?

Mrs. Paine. My father. And insisted that he get a learner's permit before he would drive on the street.

Mr. Jenner. At that moment and at that time he acted, in any event in your presence, as though he himself thought——

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. He would be capable of driving an automobile from your home to the parking area in which you were about to give him a lesson. That was your full impression, was it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I should add that, as I am recalling, he did drive a portion of the way, he drove in fact, it is about three blocks, to the parking lot. I was embarrassed to just tell him "No, don't." But I did, in, effect, on the way there, when he was on the street, driving on the street in my car, when we got there I said, "Now, I am going to drive back." I didn't want him to.

Mr. Jenner. From your home to the parking lot?

Mrs. Paine. The first time before we had any lesson at all. And at that time I made it clear I didn't want him to drive in the street. Also, it became clear to me in that lesson that he was very unskilled in driving. We practiced a number of the things you need to know, to back up, to turn, right angle turn to come to a stop.

Mr. Jenner. Was this on the parking lot?

Mrs. Paine. This was all on a parking lot.

Mr. Dulles. Did I understand you to say he drove three blocks, was that all the way to the parking lot? So he drove all the way to the parking lot?

Mrs. Paine. Perhaps a little longer. But a short distance, whatever it was, to the parking lot, yes. Rather than stopping in midstreet and changing drivers. Going to turn a right angle——

Mr. Dulles. How well did he do on that?

Mr. McCloy. That is what she is telling.

Mrs. Paine. No; that is a separate answer.

Mr. Jenner. She is talking about the parking lot.

Mrs. Paine. I was very nervous while he was doing it and was not at all happy about his doing it. I would say he did modestly well; but no means skilled in coming to a stop and turning a square right angle at a corner.

Mr. Jenner. Was there much traffic?

Mrs. Paine. No. But then too, I noticed when we got to the parking lot when he attempted to turn in a right angle he made the usual mistake of a beginner of turning too much and then having to correct it. He was not familiar with the delay of the steering wheel in relation to the wheels, actual wheels of the power——

Mr. Jenner. Was it power——

Mrs. Paine. It was not power steering. But it has no clutch so that makes it a lot easier to drive.

Mr. Jenner. It is an automatic transmission?

Mrs. Paine. It is an automatic transmission.

Mr. Jenner. Describe your automobile, will you please?

Mrs. Paine. It is a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon, green, needing paint, which we bought secondhand. It is in my name.

Mr. McCloy. But automatic transmission?

Mrs. Paine. Automatic transmission; yes.

Then, in the later lessons, I think there were altogether three with Lee——

Mr. Jenner. Have you finished with this lesson on the Sunday morning, was it?

Mrs. Paine. No; it was a Sunday afternoon and I drove back to the house.

Mr. Jenner. How long did the lesson take on the parking lot?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, 20 minutes, perhaps. I will say of him that he set for himself tasks; a good student in the sense that he planned now I am going to back up this way and I am going—one of the problems is to turn around and go the other way on the street. In other words——

Mr. Jenner. U-turn.

Mrs. Paine. It is not a U-turn, no. It is a narrower one to head in back up and go the other way and he would set this problem for himself, how to do it, back up and do it, and set the problem of backing up, driving, going back, I mean. And set himself a course. I was doing this, too, but I was interested in the eagerness he had and his desire to achieve; desire to do this and do it well.

In helping himself by setting up these course plans, you could almost say.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Would you refresh my recollection of the date this occurred?

Mrs. Paine. My letter is dated the 14th. I say, "I taught him yesterday, Sunday."

Mr. Jenner. Fourteenth of October?

Mrs. Paine. Fourteenth of October. So that would have been——

Mr. Jenner. That would have been October 7?

Mrs. Paine. Thirteenth.

Senator Cooper. May I ask a question here?

Mr. McCloy. Senator Cooper has a question.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Senator Cooper. On the occasion when you drove with him, did you find it necessary to show him how to turn on the ignition?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.

Senator Cooper. How to take steps to start the car and put it in motion?

Mrs. Paine. No, indeed; he had started it before I came out or else he wouldn't have been in the driver's seat because I didn't want him to drive on the street. So he had the car ready to go; backed out with a considerable bump.

Mr. Jenner. He backed out of the driveway?

Mrs. Paine. I am recalling this now, I think so. I recall that he then didn't attempt to go, I didn't let him, but at one point we practiced parking on the street in front of my house.

Mr. Jenner. This was a subsequent occasion?

Mrs. Paine. This was a subsequent occasion. But when the lesson was done he gradually let me turn the car into the driveway. This is harder and I was glad to do it and he was glad to be relieved of that requirement.

Representative Boggs. Mr. Chairman, I don't want to interrupt this line of inquiry, but I have to go to a meeting at the Speaker's office and I can't be back this afternoon, and I wonder if I might ask Mrs. Paine several questions?

Mr. McCloy. By all means.

Representative Boggs. Not particularly in this line.

Where did you first meet Marina. I know you told us.

Mr. McCloy. She testified to that yesterday.

Representative Boggs. Tell me briefly.

Mrs. Paine. At a party of people at the end of February 1963.

Representative Boggs. How long was it thereafter that she moved into your home for the first time?

Mrs. Paine. She first came on the 24th of April.

Representative Boggs. And she lived there for 2 weeks?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Boggs. And her husband lived here—her husband was with her?

Mrs. Paine. No. He had already gone on to New Orleans.

Representative Boggs. When did she return to your home?

Mrs. Paine. She came with me from New Orleans, leaving there the 23d of September and arriving in Irving the 24th of September.

Representative Boggs. And she lived with you in Irving from the 24th of September until the 23d?

Mrs. Paine. The morning of the 23d.

Representative Boggs. Of November?

Mrs. Paine. She left the morning of the 23d, she left expecting to come back.

Representative Boggs. During that period of time did Lee Oswald live there?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Boggs. He visited there on weekends?

Mrs. Paine. He visited there on weekends.

Representative Boggs. How well did you know Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Insufficiently well.

Representative Boggs. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I regret, of course, very deeply that I didn't perceive him as a violent man.

Representative Boggs. You saw no evidence of violence in him at any time?

Mrs. Paine. No, I didn't. He argued with his wife but he never struck her. I never heard from her of any violence from him.

Representative Boggs. Did he ever express any hostility toward anyone while he was talking with you?

Mrs. Paine. Not of a violent or——

Representative Boggs. Did he ever express any political opinions to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, he called himself a Marxist. He said that on the occasion after Stevenson had been in town in relation to the United Nations Day.

Mr. Jenner. Adlai Stevenson?

Mrs. Paine. Adlai Stevenson, and Lee had been to a meeting of the National Indignation Committee held another night that week, and he was at our home the following Friday night and commented that he didn't like General Walker.

This is the only thing I heard from him on the subject.

Representative Boggs. Did he ever express any violence toward General Walker?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Boggs. Did he ever discuss President Kennedy with you?

Mrs. Paine. He never mentioned Kennedy at all.

Representative Boggs. Did you see the rifle that he had in the room in your home?

Mrs. Paine. In the garage, no.

Representative Boggs. In the garage, you never saw one?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw that rifle at all until the police showed it to me in the station on the 22d of November.

Representative Boggs. Were you at home when the FBI interviewed Marina and Lee?

Mrs. Paine. The FBI never interviewed Marina and me; I was waiting to hear your question.

Representative Boggs. At your home?

Mrs. Paine. The FBI never interviewed Marina and Lee at my home. The FBI was there one afternoon and talked to Marina through me; they never saw Lee Oswald in my home. I told them he would be there on a weekend.

Representative Boggs. Did you ever discuss politics with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. As close as we would come, I would say, would be what I have mentioned about Madam Nhu; she was interested in what the family would do. She also said to me that she thought Khrushchev was a rather coarse, country person. She said that she admired Mrs. Kennedy a great deal, and liked, this is all before, liked President Kennedy very much.

Mr. Jenner. This was all before November 22?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Boggs. Were you aware of the fact that Lee returned to your home the night before the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Boggs. Were you curious about that in view of the fact that he seldom came except on weekends?

Mrs. Paine. It was the first time he had come without asking permission to come. He came after he and his wife had quarreled, and Marina and I said to one another, we took this to be as close as he could come to an apology, and an effort to make up.

Representative Boggs. That was the reason you thought he had come?

Mrs. Paine. But I didn't inquire of him.

Representative Boggs. You did not know that the next morning when he left he had a rifle?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Boggs. Did you see him when he left that morning?

Mrs. Paine. No, I didn't.

Representative Boggs. Have you been active in politics yourself?

Mrs. Paine. No; I vote. And I am a member of the League of Women Voters, that is the extent of my activity.

Representative Boggs. Do you belong to any other political organizations?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever belonged?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Boggs. Are you, I don't know quite how to state this question, are you a practicing Quaker?

Mrs. Paine. I am. I am also a pacifist.

Representative Boggs. You are a pacifist?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Boggs. You are not a Marxist?

Mrs. Paine. No; they don't go together, in fact. You can't believe violent overthrow and be a pacifist.

Mr. Dulles. Did you know Norman Thomas quite well?

Mrs. Paine. When I was 8 I went to a rally of Norman Thomas in New York City. That was my only contact.

Representative Boggs. Is your feeling towards Marina, shall I say in the Quaker spirit of friendship and hospitality, was that the main objective, plus the intellectual?

Mrs. Paine. I was interested in the language.

Representative Boggs. Intellectual stimulation of the language.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I found that while living with her, I could say that this day, at least added something to what I knew, what I—I learned a few more words.

Representative Boggs. You never formed any opinion about Lee Oswald as a person?

Mrs. Paine. I formed many, and I would like to make that a special area.

Representative Boggs. Would you just tell me just in a sentence or two, I know you could go into it in greater detail, but was your opinion favorable? Was it unfavorable, or what?

Mrs. Paine. I disliked him actively in the spring when I thought he just wanted to get rid of his wife and wasn't caring about her, wasn't concerned whether she would go to the doctor. I then found him much nicer, I thought, when I saw him next in New Orleans in late September, and this would be a perfectly good time to admit the rest of the pertinent part of this letter to my mother written October 14, because it shows something that I think should be part of the public record, and I am one of the few people who can give it, that presents Lee Oswald as a human person, a person really rather ordinary, not an ogre that was out to leave his wife, and be harsh and hostile to all that he knew.

But in this brief period during the times that he came out on weekends, I saw him as a person who cared for his wife and his child, tried to make himself helpful in my home, tried to make himself welcome although he really preferred to stay to himself.

He wasn't much to take up a conversation. This says, "Dear Mom," this is from Commission Exhibit No. 425, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in Dallas. Did my last letter say so? Probably not. He arrived a week and a half ago and has been looking for work since. It is a very depressing business for him, I am sure. He spent last weekend and the one before with us here and was a happy addition to our expanded family. He played with Chris"—my 3-year-old, then 2—"watched football on the TV, planed down the doors that wouldn't close, they had shifted and generally added a needed masculine flavor"——

Mr. Jenner. Wait a second.

Mrs. Paine. "And generally added a needed masculine flavor. From a poor first impression I have come to like him. We saw the doctor at Parkland Hospital last Friday and all seems very healthy" and this refers to Marina. "It appears that charges will be geared to their ability to pay."

Representative Boggs. Were you——

Mrs. Paine. May I go on?

Representative Boggs. Yes; surely. Finish.

Mrs. Paine. This was an intervening section where he was the most human that I saw him, and, of course, it has been followed by my anger with him, and all the feeling that most of us have about his act. But it seems to me important, very important, to the record that we face the fact that this man was not only human but a rather ordinary one in many respects, and who appeared ordinary.

If we think that this was a man such as we might never meet, a great aberration from the normal, someone who would stand out in a crowd as unusual, then we don't know this man, we have no means of recognizing such a person again in advance of a crime such as he committed.

The important thing, I feel, and the only protection we have is to realize how human he was though he added to it this sudden and great violence beyond——

Representative Boggs. You have no doubt about the fact that he assassinated President Kennedy?

Mrs. Paine. I have no present doubt.

Representative Boggs. Do you have any reason to believe he was associated with anyone else in this act or it was part of a conspiracy?

Mrs. Paine. I have no reason to believe he was associated with anyone.

Representative Boggs. Did you ever see him talking with anyone else, in conversation with anybody else or get mail at your home?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw him talking with anyone else. He received all his mail from home, third class for the most part perhaps one letter from Russia.

Representative Boggs. Did he have telephone calls at your home of a mysterious nature?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, did he ever have a telephone call at your home mysterious or otherwise?

Mrs. Paine. No; never.

Representative Boggs. You then would be surprised if he were part of any group?

Mrs. Paine. I would be very surprised. For one thing, I judged, I had to wonder whether this man was a spy or someone dangerous to our Nation. He had been to the Soviet Union and he had come back and he didn't go as a tourist. He went by his own admission intending to become a Soviet citizen and then came back.

Representative Boggs. What about Marina—go ahead and finish.

Mrs. Paine. Then the FBI came, as I thought they well might, interested in this man who had been to the Soviet Union, and I felt that if he had associations this would be very easy for them to know. I didn't see any, but would tend to point to the possibility of his being a spy or subversive. But I didn't see any such and I felt happy that they were charged with the responsibility of knowing about it.

Representative Boggs. Did you see any indication of any connection of Marina with any group that might be considered unusual?

Mrs. Paine. No; no one called her.

Representative Boggs. Did she have any letters?

Mrs. Paine. She received a letter from a friend in the Soviet Union which she showed to me and mentioned to me.

Representative Boggs. Was this just a normal letter?

Mrs. Paine. Girl friend.

Representative Boggs. What is your present relationship with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I have seen her once since the assassination. That was a week ago Monday. It was the first time since the morning of the 23d when she left my house, both of us expecting she would come back to it that evening. In the intervening period I wrote her a collection of letters trying to determine what her feelings were and whether it was suitable for me to write and see her.

I am presently confused, as I was then, as to how to best be a friend to her. I don't know what is appropriate in this situation.

By that I mean during the time I was writing the letters to her and not getting an answer when she was with Mr. Martin.

Representative Boggs. Was your conversation last Monday friendly?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Boggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, thank you, Mrs. Paine.

Mr. McCloy. Might I ask one question?

You said that Lee had mentioned General Walker and indicated that he didn't like General Walker. Can you elaborate on that a little bit, to what extent, how violent was he in his expression?

Mrs. Paine. No; it wasn't violent at all. It was more of, oh, well, more not giving him much credit even, but it was done briefly, this was in passing, so my recollection is hazy. But certainly there was no strong expression.

Mr. McCloy. No vehemence about it?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely not, I would have remembered that. And I recall that Marina said nothing.

Mr. McCloy. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. You mentioned that Lee did not receive any calls at your house. Did he make any telephone calls?

Mrs. Paine. I heard him call what he said was the "Time." You know, he dialed, listened and hung up, and then he told us what time it was. That is all his social contact.

Mr. McCloy. This is only on one occasion that he spoke of General Walker?

Mrs. Paine. Just that one in my hearing, apropos of a discussion that was already begun.

Mr. McCloy. We have rather interrupted the sequence of your questioning.

Mr. Jenner. That is all right.

Representative Boggs. There is one item I might bring out along the line you were inquiring about.

You gave some consideration, did you not, Mrs. Paine, during this period, as to whether Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, could or might have been a Russian agent.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And we discussed this yesterday, as I recall?

Mrs. Paine. Briefly.

Mr. Jenner. And what conclusions did you come to on that score and why?

Mrs. Paine. I thought that he was not very intelligent. I saw as far as I could see he had no particular contacts. He was not a person I would have hired for a job of any sort, no more than I would have let him borrow my car.

Mr. Jenner. Did you give consideration in that connection? Did his level of intelligence affect your judgment as to whether the Russian Government would have hired him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How did it affect you?

Mrs. Paine. I doubted they would have hired him. I kept my mind open on it to wonder.

Mr. Jenner. And you had doubt why?

Mrs. Paine. Simply because he had gone to the Soviet Union and announced that he wanted to stay, and then came back, and I wasn't convinced that he liked America.

Mr. Jenner. Did your judgment of him, and as to his level of intelligence, affect your decision ultimately that the Russian Government might not or would not have hired him because he was not a man of capacity to serve in such a way for the Russian Government?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that affected my judgment.

Mr. Dulles. Have you any idea as to his motivation in the act, in light of what you have said in the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. It is conjecture, of course, but I feel he always felt himself to be a small person; and he was right. That he wanted to be greater, or noticed, and Marina had said of him he thinks he is so big and fine, and he should take a more realistic view of himself and not be so conceited.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mrs. Paine. And I feel that he acted much more from the emotional pushings within him than from any rational set of ideas, and——

Mr. Dulles. Emotional pushings toward aggrandizement you have in mind is what you said?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. When you testified earlier this morning, Mrs. Paine, about the dry sighting of the rifle, you know what dry sighting is, don't you?

Mrs. Paine. I found out last night.

Mr. McCloy. You found that out last night?

Senator Cooper. Tell her to describe it then.

Mrs. Paine. Shall I try to describe it? See if I know? It involves holding the rifle and as if to fire and pulling the trigger, but without any ammunition in it. Going through the motions and, therefore, wiggling it and having to resight it.

Representative Ford. Going through the motions?

Mrs. Paine. Of ejecting something.

Senator Cooper. A dry run.

Mr. Jenner. Is that sufficient, Senator?

Mrs. Paine. Do I understand it?

Mr. McCloy. That is a pretty good description, it is just as well as I can give.

Representative Ford. You actually saw him doing this?

Mrs. Paine. No, he showed me last night how it was done.

Mr. McCloy. We had testimony this morning whether he had an opportunity to dry sight the rifle in his New Orleans house.

Mrs. Paine. I was just discussing what would be visible in the front of his house.

Mr. Jenner. We were having some testimony, Representative Ford, of Lee Harvey Oswald's dry sighting of the rifle when he was in New Orleans.

Representative Ford. Marina so testified when she was here.

Mr. McCloy. You don't purport to say it was impossible for him to do it without observation but it was difficult.

Mrs. Paine. It was difficult.

My then 2-year-old boy found a number of boys with trucks to play with right on that immediate driveway or alley as it is marked on the paper and small boys would have been very interested and they went right by there and Marina complained that Junie couldn't get her nap because there were so many children.

Mr. McCloy. He could have done it very early in the morning without observation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Have you any idea generally how Lee Oswald used his time, I mean when you weren't observing him when he wasn't at your house? Did he talk, tell you how he used his time? Did he use it on television? What I am trying to get at is—is there a great deal of time he had available to him that there is no way of knowing what he did. But did he talk about that, did he give you an idea of what he was, how he occupied himself, reading, television?

Mrs. Paine. Talking just about the time after October 4 when he was——

Mr. Dulles. Yes; let's take it in that period.

Mrs. Paine. I knew he was occupied with looking for a job.

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. How much of the day this occupied him, of course, I didn't know. I didn't see him. Then he got the job, and I judge that occupied him more fully. He spoke of one evening meeting he went to, this National Indignation Committee meeting.

Mr. Dulles. What about other evenings? Do you know anything about other evenings when he wasn't with you?

Mrs. Paine. Except for the one in which he accompanied my husband to a Civil Liberties Union meeting.

Mr. Dulles. All right.

Mr. McCloy. Did you, at any stage of your life while you were, whether living with your husband or apart from him, did you ever contemplate inviting anyone to come and live with you in anything like the manner in which you did invite Marina?

Mrs. Paine. My mother completed her studies at Oberlin College in February, and we talked——

Mr. Jenner. February 1963?

Mrs. Paine. No; just now, February of 1964 and we talked about the possibility as long ago as last summer of 1963, we talked about the possibility of her coming and staying for several months. I said I was tired of living alone. This is not exactly comparable, but it also is a search for a roommate.

Mr. McCloy. But apart from your mother, there was no one similarly situated to Marina, whom you thought of inviting to live with you?

Mrs. Paine. No one situated similarly that I knew either.

Mr. McCloy. No; you didn't invite anyone?

Mrs. Paine. Didn't make any other such invitation.

Mr. McCloy. Anyone to live with you.

Mr. Jenner. Before returning to the automobile and somewhat along the tail end at least of Representative Boggs' inquiries of you, did you ever give any consideration, Mrs. Paine, to the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald might have been employed by some agency of the Government of the United States?

Mrs. Paine. I never gave that any consideration.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. None whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. It never occurred to you at any time?

Mrs. Paine. It never occurred to me at any time.

Mr. Jenner. That is all on that.

Was the absence of its occurring to you based on your overall judgment of Lee Harvey Oswald and his lack, as you say, of, not a highly intelligent man?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. There was some reason why you gave it no thought, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That, and he was not in a position to know anything of use to either Government. I am questioning myself.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please elaborate?

Mrs. Paine. As regards he might be a Soviet agent, what does this man know that would be of interest to anybody or what could you find out, and you judge he didn't know anything that the Soviets might be interested in, and, as I say, I never gave it any thought of the possibility of his being employed by this Government.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Representative Ford, Mrs. Paine had been relating to us her experiences with Lee Harvey Oswald with respect to his ability to operate an automobile, and she has up to this moment revealed some things to us which we had not known of and it is something that is causing the staff considerable concern. This is his ability to drive which is a proper connection with his visit to Mexico in some one or two instances and also his escape or his attempted escape and other elements.

We interrupted the chronology to have Mrs. Paine state fully everything she knows on this particular subject.

Representative Ford. It is important.

Mr. Jenner. If we can recall just about where you were because I would like to have you pick it up just exactly where you were in this chronology.

Mrs. Paine. I had about completed the full statement of what I saw of his driving.

I will pick up by repeating when he turned a right angle corner he would turn too far and have to correct. I will complete now by describing my teaching him to park.

Mr. Jenner. Was this on that same Sunday afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. There were, I think, three altogether, but I am not certain. This is the only particular reference.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, but I think, Mr. Chairman, Representative Ford, Mrs. Paine has related to us something we had not known, that this Sunday afternoon——

Mrs. Paine. October 13.

Mr. Jenner. October 13, when she sought to instruct Lee Harvey Oswald on the local parking lot—was it by a shopping center?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That he had gotten into the car, in the driveway, with the key, and had turned on the motor of the car, had backed it up into the street.

Mrs. Paine. And then proceeded to drive to the shopping center.

Mr. Jenner. With Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. While I complained.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine complaining because she was concerned; she is the daughter of an insurance actuary.

Mrs. Paine. In my complaint I simply said that I would drive back, and that I didn't want him to drive on the street, but I didn't insist that he stop at that moment.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mrs. Paine. I recall one other afternoon when he practiced just parking directly in front of our house, and when, as I say, after he had done this he wanted me to drive the car into the driveway, that being a little harder to do.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you keep your car ordinarily, in the driveway?

Mrs. Paine. Always in the driveway in front of our house; the garage itself is too full of many other things.

Mr. Jenner. Did you leave the key in the car?

Mrs. Paine. I never leave the key in the car; I always lock it.

Mr. Jenner. That was your habit with respect to the ignition key?

Mrs. Paine. I always lock the car and leave the ignition key in my purse.

Mr. Jenner. You never leave the ignition key around your home?

Mrs. Paine. Well, my purse was in the home.

Mr. Jenner. So it was not in the open?

Mrs. Paine. He had to go in the purse, never. Just how he got the car started, I recall my shock that he had. But I must have laid out the key or something because I did not intend for him to start it.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't give him the key on that occasion to go out and start the motor?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely not.

Mr. Jenner. But when you came out of the house he had already started the motor and backed the car into the street?

Mrs. Paine. No, no; I let him back it out.

Mr. Jenner. You did?

Mrs. Paine. I was deciding what I was going to do.

Mr. Dulles. You were in the car at that time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I had gotten in the car at that time.

Representative Ford. And he was in the driver's seat?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was he in the driver's seat when you came out of the house?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection. Then, referring now to the practice of his parking.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Representative Ford, the witness had also related to us, which we had not known, when she came to New Orleans in the spring to bring Marina from Irving to New Orleans, that Lee Harvey Oswald told her that he had driven his uncle's car, one of the Murrets, in New Orleans on the street.

Go ahead.

Representative Ford. Perhaps I should say that I have been absent for a half hour or so attending a very important committee meeting, so I didn't get this story from the outset and I appreciate being brought up to date on it.

Mrs. Paine. There were two occasions when we practiced parking, one in the larger parking lot just backing into, pretending there were cars there to back between, as in parallel parking, and another occasion directly in front of my house. On this second occasion directly in front of my house he finally learned how to do it. He had had a bad time, getting his wheels too cramped and not getting in, and getting his wheels straightened out, a beginner's mistakes.

Finally, I got into the car and told him when to start reversing the twist on his wheel and cramp, and he said, so soon. It was a surprise. It didn't feel to him it was time already to start coming out of the turn.

And then he saw that it was when he then got into the parking place correctly, and quite soon got the feel of it but this was clearly his first experience doing it right, and then he practiced doing it right several times, and he learned quite well, I thought.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)

Representative Ford. On these subsequent occasions did he ask you to help him or did he take the keys and do it on his own initiative?

Mrs. Paine. No, he never took the keys. I offered to give him—give Lee lessons on Sunday afternoons and we managed to do it a few Sunday afternoons, I think three altogether and there were a couple of weekends when we didn't get the lesson in, something intervened.

Representative Ford. This was in October of 1963?

Mrs. Paine. October and November. I think the last lesson was November 10, being the last Sunday.

Mr. Dulles. What progress did he make over that period?

Mrs. Paine. Considerable.

Mr. Dulles. Reasonable progress?

Mrs. Paine. Very reasonable progress. I thought he learned well, as I have said, both backing and to make a right-angle turn, and really began to understand the feeling of parking.

Representative Ford. Did he indicate to you when he might apply for a driver's license?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Oh, yes. Thank you. It is a whole new section.

Mr. Jenner. I was about to go into that.

Mr. Dulles. There was some testimony on that point, I believe.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Mr. Frazier testified that Oswald mentioned to him that he was going to or had, I am not sure which, and I was wondering whether he mentioned it to you?

Mr. Dulles. Got in line.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, on November 9, which was election day, Saturday, in Texas.

Mr. Jenner. This was the weekend he was home?

Mrs. Paine. This was the weekend that he was home, which was the last weekend he was home, don't call it home though.

Mr. Jenner. I am sorry. It was the last weekend that he was at your home?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And he arrived the previous day, evening or late afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now starting with that Friday afternoon, please relate the course of events?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I will say that we went Saturday morning to a station in Dallas where you can take the written test and eye test that permits you to get a learner's permit, but when we got there—that is all of us, children, Lee, Marina and myself, driving in my car to Oak Cliff—when we got there it was closed, being election day. I hadn't thought, realized that this would mean it would be closed. So we returned.

The next weekend——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, before you reach that.

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Are you reasonably certain that he came home or came to Irving the previous afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps to refresh your recollection, do you remember a weekend in which Lee Harvey Oswald called from Dallas and said to Marina that he would not be in that Friday afternoon because he was going to do some job hunting the next morning, and that he would come the next day? Could it be that this was that weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Well, he had already had a job that weekend, didn't he? So he wouldn't have been job hunting. I recall he was there in the morning, Saturday morning.

Mr. Jenner. Looking for another job?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, well, no.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall any discussion of his being dissatisfied with the job at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. And was undertaking to look for another job?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. There is no discussion?

Mrs. Paine. There is one Saturday that he came out later but that was still in October. It was the second weekend that he came out, altogether he came out on the weekend of the 4th, so he would have come out on October 12, Saturday. It doesn't check with my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. So just to make sure, it is your present recollection that you can recall no occasion when you were advised by Marina or directly that Lee Harvey Oswald called and said he would not be in on that particular Friday but would come the next day?

Mrs. Paine. I would be quite certain it was not that weekend. It is possible that this happened, I don't recall any discussion, nor did I have any idea that there had been any occasion when he had to look for a different job.

Mr. Jenner. Never any discussion on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. Never.

Just to complete the discussion of automobile driving, I will go on to the next weekend then when he did not come out to my house, but I——

Representative Ford. That would be the weekend of the 18th?

Mrs. Paine. Just prior to the assassination. The 16th I was having a birthday party for my little girl and said I couldn't possibly take him again to this place so he could take a test. But that he didn't need a car. This was news to him. He thought he needed a car for his initial test, learner's permit. I said he could go himself from Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. This was a conversation between you and Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How did it take place?

Mrs. Paine. It must have been by phone.

Mr. Jenner. Did he call you or did you call him?

Mrs. Paine. He called to the house nearly every night around 5:30 to talk to Marina. And Marina suggested to him that he wouldn't, shouldn't come out that weekend because I was having a birthday party and it had been a long weekend, the prior weekend. She didn't want him to wear out his welcome, and then I said to him he could still try to get——

Mr. Jenner. You did talk with him on the telephone?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection. I am certain that I talked with him, that he was surprised that he didn't need a car. I had to tell him that he didn't need a car to take with him to take his test.

Mr. Jenner. Take his initial test?

Mrs. Paine. Take his test, and suggested that he go from Dallas himself to take this test. Then he called us Saturday afternoon of the 16th to say he had been and tried to get his driver's permit but that he had arrived before closing time but still too late to get in because there was a long line ahead of him, the place having been closed both the previous Saturday for election day and the following Monday, the 11th, Veterans Day. There were a lot of people who wanted to get permits and he was advised that it wouldn't pay him to wait in line. He didn't have time to be tested.

Mr. Jenner. Could you help us fix, can you recall as closely as possible the day of the week, this is the weekend of the assassination, was it not?

Mrs. Paine. The weekend before.

Mr. Jenner. The weekend before, and this conversation you are now relating that you had with him in which he said that he had gone to the driver's license station, when did that conversation with you take place?

Mrs. Paine. That conversation was with Marina, and she told me about it.

Mr. Jenner. When did she tell you about it?

Mrs. Paine. He called her, it must have been Saturday afternoon, soon after he had been, he went Saturday morning and they closed at noon.

Mr. Jenner. I see. This was the weekend he did not come out to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. This was the weekend he did not come out.

Mr. Jenner. The weekend in which you had your birthday party for your son was it?

Mrs. Paine. It was either that same afternoon or it was possibly Sunday, I don't recall. It is important though. I wish I could recall when his call to her was. Since it relates to the problem of when I dialed his number.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 426 a form or document which purports to be a driver's permit or driver's license permit application by Lee Harvey Oswald. It is a one-page form document on heavy board, or at least heavy paper.

Are you familiar sufficiently with the handwriting or handprinting of Lee Harvey Oswald to be able to tell us whether the writing and handprinting on that document is or is not Lee Harvey Oswald's?

Mrs. Paine. I am not sufficiently familiar. I can simply compare it with the only other thing I have seen in his printing which is what he wrote down in my diary.

Mr. Jenner. Refreshing your recollection in that respect and looking at the exhibit, if you are able to do so, would you give us your opinion as to whether the exhibit is in the handwriting or handprinting of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I think it very likely is.

Mr. Jenner. In your short talk with Lee Harvey Oswald on the subject of his having gone to the license application department in Dallas, was anything said about his actually having filled out a driver's license or a learner's permit application?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing.

Mr. Dulles. Could we have the date of this document?

Mr. Jenner. If it is dated. My recollection is it is not.

Mrs. Paine. His birthday is on it only. Picked up at his room on the date of the assassination. I guess it was picked up, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Could I review this with you a little bit? Did Lee Harvey Oswald on this occasion tell you in the course of what limited telephone conversation you had with him, that he had gone to the driver's license application bureau?

Mrs. Paine. No; he told Marina.

Mr. Jenner. And did—he told Marina and then Marina in turn told you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How near the time of the telephone conversation?

Mrs. Paine. She told me immediately.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina tell you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. She just turned from the phone and told you at once?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. This was spontaneous?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. It may have been while she was still on the phone, I don't recall, but it certainly was immediate.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Dulles, to answer your question the document is not dated.

Representative Ford. I was just noticing in the upper right-hand corner on the one side he lists his occupation as photographer.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; this is so.

Mrs. Paine. This is what he wanted to do, not what he was doing.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please relate to the Commission what your impression of what his occupation was or occupation had been during the period of time that you had known him?

Mrs. Paine. When I first met him he was working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. And had expressed himself as liking his work. I gathered that it was a kind of copying or making up of advertising layout, develop a photographic process.

When we arrived at New Orleans he pointed to a building where he was working. I saw no writing on the outside of the building. He said—no, first on the phone when he first called to say he had a job, he said he was doing work similar to what he had been doing, photographic type of work.

Representative Ford. Work in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. He called to us in Dallas from New Orleans to say he was doing such work.

Mr. Jenner. In New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Subsequently, I have heard it is not so, but this is what he told Marina and she told me over the phone. He said, and she told me immediately over the phone, that he was getting $1.50 an hour instead of $1.25 he had been getting, and then in New Orleans he pointed to a building where he was working, somewhere along the river, near the French Quarter, but a big large brick building with no particular designation on it. I don't know what sort of building it was, but he said it was the photo outfit where he was working then.

When he was looking for a job he said, now, in October, early October, he came back to the Dallas area and he was looking for a job, he said he was hopeful of getting similar work again, photographic layout, whatever it was. But that he was pleased to get any job that would produce an income.

Mr. Dulles. For the Commission's information, Mr. Jenner, is this not, that is Exhibit No. 426, a form which Lee Oswald apparently took home, or filled out somewhere, either his home or at the office, but it was never sworn to and is not signed.

Mr. Jenner. That is correct.

Mr. Dulles. It is not a completed document. It has no date on it.

Mr. Jenner. It is my information and there will be testimony and that is why I didn't go into the document, that it was found in his, among his effects in his room on Beckley Street. With permission, I might describe the document possibly a little more in detail in view of the interest and the question. At the top of the document under name there is hand printing on this form, first the form is entitled "Application for Texas Driver's License."

Mrs. Paine. May I interrupt?

(Whereupon, at 12:45 o'clock the President's Commission recessed.)

---

[Transcriber's Notes]

Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.

Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.

Some simple typographical errors were corrected.

Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.

Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.

Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.

Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.

Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.

Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.

Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.

The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.

Page [2]: Missing opening quotation mark: the fund for the Russian-born widow had reached $76,000."

Page [3]: "No, I have no recollection of anything that she said?" likely should end with a period. Punctuation errors like this occur elsewhere and have not been changed.

Page [224]: "Mr. Ball. It is west of of your house?" repeats "of".

Page [229]: 'Mr. Ball. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered the door' should be 'at "Z"'.

Page [262]: "The Chairman. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside...." was printed as "Mr. Chairman...." and has been changed here for consistency, to make searches more reliable.

Page [286]: Added missing period between "m" and "?": and that is p.m.?

Page [320]: "you have to go the meetings" may be missing "to" after "go".

Page [320]: "She said the thought" probably should be "She said they thought".

Page [341]: "in the early party of September" probably should be "part".

Page [363]: "a bruise or contusion or ecchymosis" was misprinted as "eccmymosis"; spelled correctly earlier on the same page.

Page [364] and elsewhere: "Mr. Specter" misprinted five times as "Mr. Spector"; corrected here.

Page [375]: "its jacket appears to me to be intact" misprinted as "in tact"; corrected here.

Page [383]: "exit would labeled B, Exhibit 388" probably should be "exit wound".

Page [388]: "Mr. Paine. That was in Dallas?" should end with a period, not with a question mark.

Page [481]: "Does your interpretation" misprinted as "Does you interpretation"; corrected here.