TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROBERT A. REID
Mr. Dulles. Mrs. Reid, the Chief Justice had to leave a few moments and he expressed his regret to you.
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Dulles. So I am presiding over the Commission at the present time.
As you possibly have been informed, the purpose of the testimony this morning has been to hear the testimony of Officer Baker, yourself, and certain others who were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of the President, and we will ask you give testimony in that connection and anything else you may know.
Would you please rise, Mrs. Reid, and hold up your right hand.
Do you swear the testimony you will give before this Commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you God, and nothing but the truth?
Mrs. Reid. I do.
Mr. Dulles. Mr. Belin will carry forward the interrogation.
Mr. Belin. We met in Dallas on Friday, March 20.
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, could you state your name for the Commission, please?
Mrs. Reid. Mrs. Robert A. Reid.
Mr. Belin. That is R-e-i-d?
Mrs. Reid. R-e-i-d, that is right.
Mr. Belin. Where do you live, Mrs. Reid?
Mrs. Reid. 1914 Elmwood Boulevard, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Belin. And are you originally from Dallas?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I have been for quite a number of years. I was born out in a little town out from Dallas, Cereal, Tex.
Mr. Belin. How long did you go to school in Dallas? Did you go through high school?
Mrs. Reid. I completed high school there and I married and went to Waxahachie and lived there about 15 years and moved back to Dallas then.
Mr. Belin. Do you have any family, Mrs. Reid?
Mrs. Reid. You mean like sisters or my children?
Mr. Belin. Well, children.
Mrs. Reid. Both, I have six sisters and I have two children and a grandchild.
Mr. Belin. You have a grandchild?
Mrs. Reid. And a husband, and a family.
Mr. Belin. What is your occupation, Mrs. Reid?
Mrs. Reid. I am a clerical supervisor.
Mr. Belin. For what company?
Mrs. Reid. Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. Belin. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. Reid. I have been 7 years.
Mr. Belin. Have you been a clerical supervisor all the time?
Mrs. Reid. No; I started out in the department on what they call their postage desk and I was appointed to a clerical supervisor.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, I am taking you to November 22, 1963.
Mrs. Reid. All right.
Mr. Belin. Where were you on that day commencing with, say, around noon or so?
Mrs. Reid. Well, at 12 I went to lunch, and I had my lunch rather hurriedly so that I might go downstairs and watch the parade.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, you say you ate your lunch?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; I did.
Mr. Belin. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mrs. Reid. In our lunchroom, in the lunchroom.
Mr. Belin. Where is that?
Mrs. Reid. Well——
Mr. Belin. On what floor?
Mrs. Reid. On two, the same floor as our office.
Mr. Belin. That is on the second floor?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Did you buy your lunch or bring your lunch?
Mrs. Reid. No; I brought my lunch.
Mr. Belin. Was there anyone in the lunchroom when you were eating lunch?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember who was there?
Mrs. Reid. Well, the girls that work under me, the young ladies, goodness, it is all hard for me to remember how many there were, but the general ones that usually eat there with me every day.
Mr. Belin. On Commission Exhibit 497, is this room, this lunchroom, the one that is marked "lunchroom" here with the numbers 25 and 26 in it?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. And that is where you ate?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. And on Commission Exhibit 497 do you work on the second floor also?
Mrs. Reid. I do.
Mr. Belin. In the area marked with the room "office space," somewhere in that room?
Mrs. Reid. Over here.
Mr. Belin. You say you work over near the dumbwaiter which is marked?
Mrs. Reid. My desk——
Mr. Belin. Your desk is near the dumbwaiter on Exhibit 497.
Mr. Dulles. That is the desk there, is it?
Mr. Belin. That is the dumbwaiter.
Mr. Dulles. Oh, yes.
Mr. Belin. Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps.
Mr. Dulles. Where was your husband working?
Mrs. Reid. He works for the records building.
Mr. Belin. Where is that located?
Mrs. Reid. Well, it is off the left-hand side, kind of cater-cornered across from our building.
Mr. Belin. The records building has one side of it on Elm Street running from Houston to Record Street?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. And I believe it is on, it would run on, the south side of Elm?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?
Mrs. Reid. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.
Mr. Belin. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?
Mrs. Reid. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.
Mr. Belin. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?
Mrs. Reid. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.
Mr. Belin. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?
Mrs. Reid. I can't, I don't, remember that.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Mrs. Reid. I can't remember the time they left.
Mr. Belin. Now, you went out from the lunchroom; turning to Exhibit 497, you went from the lunchroom through the door, which would be the west door, and then through the doorway marked number 23 on the exhibit there or did you instead go to the front?
Mrs. Reid. No; I came back through the office.
Mr. Belin. You didn't go through the door marked 24?
Mrs. Reid. No; I did not.
Mr. Belin. You came out through this first door of the lunchroom?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. And then you turned which way?
Mrs. Reid. Turned this way.
Mr. Belin. You turned to your left and went through the door which is between numbers 27 and 28?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. On Exhibit 497, and you went back to your office. Did you go by your desk?
Mrs. Reid. I am sure I did because I usually leave my purse in there until I get ready to go out and then pick it up.
Mr. Belin. All right. You walked toward the number marked 29 on Exhibit 497?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Then where did you walk?
Mrs. Reid. I came over here and got my jacket and scarf out of the closet.
Mr. Belin. All right.
You are now pointing to the closet on Exhibit 497 which would be located on the east side of the building?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Toward the front. Then what did you do?
Mrs. Reid. I came and went out this door.
Mr. Belin. You are, you went out the door which is marked on Exhibit 497 as room 200, is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. What did you do?
Mrs. Reid. I got on the elevator.
Mr. Belin. Now, there is an elevator along the east wall toward the front of the building, is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Is this a freight or passenger?
Mrs. Reid. It is a passenger.
Mr. Belin. Do you know how far this elevator goes or how high?
Mrs. Reid. Fourth floor.
Mr. Belin. Fourth floor. You got on the elevator on the second floor?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?
Mrs. Reid. Came down on the first floor.
Mr. Belin. Then you came on the first floor.
Mrs. Reid. Went out the front door of our building.
Mr. Belin. Went out the front door.
Mrs. Reid. I stood on the steps for several minutes.
Mrs. Belin. All right.
Mrs. Reid. Shall I continue?
Mrs. Reid. Until I saw the parade coming around the corner from Main and Houston and when I did I walked out to the street so I would be nearer to the people, and I walked out and was standing by Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell.
Mr. Belin. All right. This was in front of the steps, ma'am?
Mrs. Reid. Well, no; I had gone out directly in the front but I had gotten nearer to the street than the steps.
Mr. Belin. You were actually onto the street then as the motorcade came by?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; that is right. There is a part in there where our streets, one goes this way and one kind of goes off this way, and the line of parade they were going that way and I got right on the curb and was standing there.
Mr. Belin. Well, turning to Exhibit 361, the top of Exhibit 361 faces south and this is Houston Street, here is the School Book Depository Building that I am pointing to.
Can you give any estimate as to where you were with relation to this, well, I will call it a peninsula of land between the parkway and the building.
Mrs. Reid. You have got me turned around.
Mr. Belin. The parade was coming along Houston.
Mrs. Reid. I was standing about along in here, in here.
Mr. Belin. You were standing a little bit to the north of the spot marked "B" on Exhibit 361.
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. And you would be directly in front of the main entrance of the School Book Depository, is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. That is correct.
Mr. Belin. Now, by "B" I am referring to, on Exhibit 361, I am referring to the pen ink—pen and ink "B" which is directly to the east of what I will call the traffic light on that peninsula of land as Elm goes into the parkway there. All right, what did you see?
Mrs. Reid. You mean when I was standing there?
Mr. Belin. What did you see and hear and do?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I was naturally watching for the car as the President came by. I looked at him and I was very anxious to see Mrs. Kennedy, I looked at her and I was going to see how she was dressed and she was dressed very attractive and she put up her hand to her hat and was holding it on, the wind was blowing a little bit and then went on right on by me and that is the last as far as the parade, I mean as far as they were concerned.
I did see Johnson, and that was it. I can't even tell you any more about the parade because after the shots I didn't know any part about that.
Mr. Belin. What did you see and hear and do after that?
Mrs. Reid. Well, when I heard—I heard three shots.
Mr. Belin. You heard three shots?
Mrs. Reid. And I turned to Mr. Campbell and I said, "Oh, my goodness, I am afraid those came from our building," because it seemed like they came just so directly over my head, and then I looked up in the windows, and saw three colored boys up there, I only recognized one because I didn't know the rest of them so well.
Mr. Belin. Which one did you know?
Mrs. Reid. James Jarman.
Mr. Belin. You recognized James Jarman?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; because I had had some dealings with him in the business part and I knew him. I couldn't have told you the other two at all because I didn't know them.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember that floor you saw them on?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I wasn't exactly looking at the floor, I don't know, I would say a couple of floors up. I mean several anyway. I don't know exactly.
Mr. Belin. You don't remember which floor it was.
Mrs. Reid. I couldn't tell you because, you know, I didn't count the floors and I didn't count them, and I made the statement "Oh, I hope they don't think any of our boys have done this" and I had no thoughts of anything like that. I turned and went back in the building.
Mr. Belin. All right. Now, let me ask you this then.
Mr. Belin. Before you turned and went back into the building did you—did Mr. Campbell say anything to you?
Mrs. Reid. He said, "Oh, Mrs. Reid, no, it came from the grassy area down this way," and that was the last I said to him.
Mr. Belin. All right. When he said "this way" which direction was he pointing?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I hope I get my directions. In the direction of the parade was going, in the bottom of that direction.
Mr. Belin. Now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing?
Mrs. Reid. Well, it was just a mass of confusion. I saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness I must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. And don't ask me why I went into the building because I don't know.
Mr. Belin. Did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else?
Mrs. Reid. No; because I ran into the building. I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. I ran up to our office.
Mr. Belin. All right.
Mr. Dulles. Just 1 second there. How long after the third shot did you run into the building?
Mr. Belin. Mr. Dulles, we did a reconstruction on that time sequence on Friday and I am going to come to that as soon as I get the route first.
Mr. Dulles. Right.
Mr. Belin. You went into the building in the main lobby?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; I did.
Mr. Belin. Did you take the elevator or the stairs?
Mrs. Reid. No; I went up the stairs.
Mr. Belin. Was this the front stairs or the back stairs?
Mrs. Reid. No; the front stairs.
Mr. Belin. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did you do?
Mrs. Reid. I went into the office.
Mr. Belin. You went into your office?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. And then what did you do?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."
He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.
Mr. Belin. When you saw him, I believe you said you first saw him when he was coming through the door?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Turning to Exhibit 497, what doorway was it where you first saw him?
Mrs. Reid. Right here.
Mr. Belin. You are pointing to the doorway between numbers 27 and 28?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. On Exhibit 497?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Where were you when you saw him in that doorway?
Mrs. Reid. I was coming right through here.
Mr. Belin. You are pointing to what number there?
Mrs. Reid. Well, it is 29.
Mr. Belin. 29. And then about where were you when you actually passed him or had this exchange?
Mrs. Reid. Right along here. I passed my desk.
Mr. Belin. Why don't you put on Exhibit 496 an "X" as to where you were when you thought you passed him.
Mrs. Reid. Here.
Mr. Belin. I wonder if you would put the initial "R" which we will put for Mrs. Reid.
Mrs. Reid. All right.
Mr. Belin. By the "X" and that is where you were when you passed him.
On March 20 you and I met for the first time, didn't we, Mrs. Reid?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. We sat down and I asked you to tell me what happened and you related the story. Did I keep on questioning you or did you tell me what happened?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I more or less told you what had happened.
Mr. Belin. All right. Then we went out on the street, did we not, in front of the building, with a stopwatch, do you remember that?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; I surely do. It was kind of cool.
Mr. Belin. It was kind of cool wasn't it, and a little bit windy.
Mrs. Reid. Yes; it was; yes.
Mr. Belin. And when in Dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time that the last shot was fired, is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you?
Mrs. Reid. Approximately 2 minutes.
Mr. Dulles. I didn't hear you.
Mrs. Reid. Two minutes.
Mr. Belin. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald crossed?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it.
Mr. Belin. When you—you saw me start the stopwatch and you saw me stop it there, right?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. When you met in the lunchroom——
Mrs. Reid. I didn't meet him in the lunchroom.
Mr. Belin. Pardon me, when you met in the office, which direction were you going, looking toward Exhibit 497, as you look on it, which direction were you going toward the left or right?
Mrs. Reid. You mean as I came in the office? I turned in and turned to my left.
Mr. Belin. That would be heading in a westerly direction is that right?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. What direction was Oswald walking?
Mrs. Reid. He was going east.
Mr. Belin. Did you see him actually walk through or coming through the door there?
Mrs. Reid. He had just gotten to the door, was stepping in as I glanced up.
Mr. Belin. He was stepping in as you glanced up?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Had you ever—you said, I will put it this way, had you ever seen Oswald in that second floor office space before apart from the time of getting his pay?
Mrs. Reid. Well, one other time he came in, now he might have been in to get that change for this time but I didn't see him going up there, and he made a remark to one of the girls back there and she said, "Well, he sure is calm." And I said, "What did he say to you?"
And she says, "I have a baby," and he stopped and I said, "Well, he is pretty calm just having a new baby," and outside of that I never remember seeing him other than to come in to get change.
Mr. Belin. What about the other men in the warehouse, did they have occasion to come into that office space?
Mrs. Reid. Occasionally they come up to get change.
Mr. Belin. Apart from getting change or getting paid?
Mrs. Reid. No; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get something. I mean they just don't come in there and wander around. It is some business for them.
Now, I did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating his lunch but I didn't even know his name.
Mr. Belin. Did you know his name on the day you saw him?
Mrs. Reid. No; I did not. When I saw his picture I still didn't know his name until they told us who it was.
Mr. Belin. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor?
Mrs. Reid. Because it looked just like him.
Mr. Belin. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. Reid. Oh, yes.
Mr. Belin. But you had seen him in the building?
Mrs. Reid. Other than that day, sure.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. Reid. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Belin. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. Reid. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. Reid. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.
Mr. Belin. Have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to Commission Exhibit 150 or do you know?
Mrs. Reid. No; I do not. I have never, so far as I know ever seen that shirt. I have been asked about that shirt before, I have seen it once before but not since all this happened.
Mr. Belin. All right. Mrs. Reid, if a person were in the lunchroom with a coke on the second floor, and then wanted to get to the front stairway or front elevator, would there be only one route to get there or would there be more than one?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; he could either go around this hallway, or back here in this hallway or he could have gotten through our office or——
Mr. Belin. All right.
I wonder if in the first hallway you could mark route 1 there so we have it on 496.
Mrs. Reid. Does it matter?
Mr. Belin. That is fine.
Mrs. Reid. You said the front stairway, too?
Mr. Belin. That is the front stairway. You have put a number 1, I am going to put "R-1".
Mrs. Reid. All right.
Mr. Belin. And that will be one hallway to go down to get from the lunchroom to the front stairway?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Now, would there be another way to get there?
Mrs. Reid. He can come through the office.
Mr. Belin. You could come through the office?
Mr. Belin. Which is the way Lee Harvey Oswald was walking?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Would any one way be faster than the other or not?
Mrs. Reid. It couldn't be very much faster because it is practically the same distance here that it is here and you have got this hallway there.
Mr. Belin. So, either "R-1" or going through the office marked 29 would be approximately the same?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Now, where you saw Lee Harvey Oswald is there kind of a pathway through there without any obstructions for desks?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; there is, sort of a passageway.
Mr. Belin. You passed at point what you have marked with an "X"?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Is that correct?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. With an "R" and "X" to it?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Did Lee Harvey Oswald walk past you?
Mrs. Reid. Yes; he did.
Mr. Belin. Kept on walking in the same direction?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. How far did you see him go?
Mrs. Reid. I didn't turn around to look. He went on straight, he did not go on past the back door because I was facing that way. What he did after that——
Mr. Belin. But you know he did not go out the same back door he came in?
Mrs. Reid. No; he did not.
Mr. Belin. Do you know whether or not he went into the conference room?
Mrs. Reid. Well, I wouldn't think he did because this door off here was locked and I had unlocked it for the policeman myself.
Mr. Belin. All right, let's put an arrow here to the door that you say was locked, and we will put—do you want to put in the word "locked" in there, if you would, please?
Mrs. Reid. All right.
Mr. Dulles. On which side was it locked or did you take the key away, was it locked so that you——
Mrs. Reid. I would go in from this way. I wasn't going in from our office into the conference room.
Mr. Dulles. And you locked that door?
Mrs. Reid. We did. They had asked me, I went in there with the policeman into the conference room.
Mr. Dulles. Did you take the key?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, sir; I did, I got it for Mr. Williams.
Mr. Dulles. No; I mean after you locked the door do you leave the key in the lock?
Mrs. Reid. No.
Mr. Belin. What I want to know is this, Mrs. Reid. When you came back up into the building after the shooting and you walked into the conference room, at that time was the door which you have marked "locked," was it locked at that time when you came in?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, sir; it was to—it was locked when I got to it, I will say that.
Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this. Had you been the one who had locked it before or don't you know?
Mrs. Reid. Oh, no, I couldn't say that because too many people used the conference room.
I would have no way of knowing who locked it or if it is left unlocked. The porter locks it in the evening.
Mr. Belin. All right.
If one is locking that door with a key do you lock the door from the inside of the conference room?
Mrs. Reid. Either way.
Mr. Belin. Or the outside, either way?
Mrs. Reid. Either way.
Mr. Belin. Who has custody of the key?
Mrs. Reid. I got that from Mr. Williams' desk, because that is where I got it from, and then the porter has one. I could not say. They all have the keys.
Mr. Belin. When did you get it to unlock the door?
Mrs. Reid. Well, by the time the policeman got there and started searching our floor. I can't recall whether I had taken him into the lounge first because they had me to go in there with him, the ladies' lounge, or whether they went in there because there is a little stand in here that Mr. Cason uses when we have a conference, and he jerked it back because it would have been humanly possible for a person to have gotten in there, but it was up against the wall and there was no one there.
Mr. Belin. Would this have been more or less than 5 minutes after you got back in the building that you opened the lounge?
Mrs. Reid. That is where you all get me in this time because I was not watching the clock that day.
Mr. Belin. That is all right.
Mrs. Reid. Time really didn't mean anything to us because they, the police officers, just came in on us and began to ask so many questions.
Mr. Belin. When you were at point "RX" and moving, if someone would have walked into the conference room would you have heard him in any way?
Mrs. Reid. I could have heard him open the door.
Mr. Belin. You could hear them open the door. During the time, the period of time you were there and saw Lee Harvey Oswald, did you hear anyone open the door to the conference room?
Mrs. Reid. I do not recall any.
Mr. Belin. From your best judgment, if Lee Harvey Oswald didn't go into the conference room and didn't go back to the door marked around between 27 and 28, how would he have gotten out of the office?
Mrs. Reid. Right straight out this door down this stairway and out the front door.
Mr. Belin. You are saying right down the hallway in the direction in which the arrow number 29 is pointing?
Mrs. Reid. That is right.
Mr. Belin. Down through the hall and down through the front stairway.
Have you ever talked to anyone there who ever saw Lee Harvey Oswald leave the building?
Mrs. Reid. No; I haven't.
Mr. Belin. Do you know of your own personal knowledge how he got out of the building?
Mrs. Reid. No; I do not, I do not. I have no idea.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, did you notice whether or not the man you ran into on the second floor whom you now identify as Lee Harvey Oswald was carrying anything in either arm other than a coke?
Mrs. Reid. No.
Mr. Belin. Was the coke full or empty?
Mrs. Reid. It was full.
Mr. Belin. It was full.
Was there anything else you noticed about him?
Mrs. Reid. No.
Mr. Belin. Anything about the expression on his face?
Mrs. Reid. No; just calm.
Mr. Belin. Anything about whether or not his clothes were clean or dirty?
Mrs. Reid. Well, they were clean.
Mr. Belin. Anything about whether or not his hair was combed or mussed?
Mrs. Reid. No; I did not. There wasn't anything unusual.
Mr. Belin. You say he mumbled something?
Mrs. Reid. He did.
Mr. Belin. Could you even remember one word that he mumbled?
Mrs. Reid. I did not because he kept moving and I did, too, and I was just not interested in what he was saying, it was just the excitement of time and I didn't even say, "What did you say?" because I wasn't interested.
Mr. Dulles. Was he moving fast?
Mrs. Reid. No; because he was moving at a very slow pace, I never did see him moving fast at any time.
Mr. Belin. He was moving just at his normal walk?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember whether he was wearing any pieces of jewelry like a watch or bracelet or ring or something?
Mrs. Reid. No; I do not remember that.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, did you ever have any personal contact with Lee Harvey Oswald about such things as his paycheck or anything like that?
Mrs. Reid. No; I did not.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember what hand he was carrying his coke in?
Mrs. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Belin. In what hand?
Mrs. Reid. In his right hand.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, we thank you very much.
Mr. Dulles. Just one moment.
Mr. Belin. Pardon me, do you have a question, sir?
Mr. Dulles. How many times do you think you saw Mr. Oswald during the period he was employed?
Mrs. Reid. My goodness.
Mr. Dulles. Roughly.
Mrs. Reid. It couldn't have been——
Mr. Dulles. Five times, 10 times?
Mrs. Reid. I would say five times. At times I would go down to Mr. Truly's office for some business. I would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone.
Mr. Dulles. Never talked to anyone?
Mrs. Reid. And he was usually reading, I noticed that.
Mr. Dulles. Did he seem to repel ordinary conversational attempts or didn't you try that?
Mrs. Reid. I never did try it, I never did.
Mr. Dulles. You never tried it.
Mrs. Reid. He seemed to be interested in what he was doing, I would never see anyone talking to him at all in the lunchroom so far as I can recall, not any time.
Mr. Dulles. Who in the organization so far as you know would have handled his paychecks?
Mrs. Reid. Mr. Campbell.
Mr. Dulles. Campbell would have handled his paychecks.
Mrs. Reid. He makes them out and then he sends them to Mr. Truly and I am sure he distributes it to his employees.
Mr. Belin. Two questions, Mrs. Reid.
Mrs. Reid. All right.
Mr. Belin. When we reconstructed your actions on Friday, March 20, which you said it took about 2 minutes, would you say that this was a maximum or minimum time?
Mrs. Reid. Well, it wasn't any less than that I am sure because 2 minutes time——
Mr. Belin. Did we kind of run?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, we did, three times.
Mr. Belin. Three times.
Mrs. Reid. I remember that.
Mr. Belin. And we were both huffing and puffing?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, we were. I know I was that day, I think.
Mr. Belin. Mrs. Reid, since the tragedy of November 22, have there been any discussions that you have heard among any employees which might relate to the character insofar as the personal habits or what-have-you of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. Reid. The only thing I have heard anybody say was he never talked to anybody, he always went about his business, that is the only thing I heard the employees say.
Mr. Belin. Did you ever hear anyone say that he might have been friendly with at least one other employee?
Mrs. Reid. No; I have not.
Mr. Dulles. Did the employees discuss him at all among themselves?
Mrs. Reid. You mean prior to this?
Mr. Dulles. Prior, during the period he was employed there?
Mrs. Reid. No.
Mr. Dulles. At the Book Depository?
Mrs. Reid. I never heard it.
Mr. Dulles. They did not discuss him in your presence, the office employees?
Mrs. Reid. Well, the office employees and the warehouse employees are not connected. We talk to them, naturally some of them have been there a long time.
Mr. Dulles. Was it your usual practice to take lunch in the lunchroom on the second floor?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, it is; every day.
Mr. Dulles. Do you recall whether it was Lee Harvey Oswald's usual practice or how many times possibly you saw him there at lunch with you and the others?
Mrs. Reid. You mean did he come up every day? No, he did not.
Mr. Dulles. Would you think he came up half the days or could you give any—half the working days?
Mrs. Reid. No; I wouldn't say he came that often. I can't recall seeing him up there but three times. We have said since then, since he sat there and didn't say anything and was reading we have often wondered what we discussed before him because we all have a general conversation every day at noon but I don't know we would have said anything that interested him.
But you wondered was he listening to what we were saying, I don't know whether he heard anything but he may have heard what we were saying.
Mr. Dulles. You, of course, knew that Lee Harvey Oswald was an employee of the School Book Depository?
Mrs. Reid. You mean by name before this happened?
Mr. Dulles. That the individual that you later knew was Oswald was one of the employees of the school book?
Mrs. Reid. Yes, because I had seen him working in the building.
Mr. Dulles. Yes. Attorney General Carr, do you have any questions?
Mr. Carr. Mrs. Reid, have you had occasion to visit with any of Oswald's relatives, his wife or mother?
Mrs. Reid. No.
Mr. Carr. Have they been in there since that date to look over the premises?
Mrs. Reid. His mother has been but I didn't see her. She didn't go any further than the first floor I understand, but I have never seen her other than these pictures.
Mr. Dulles. Is it usual for the employees of the depository to have friends visit them during office hours or would that be an unusual practice?
Mrs. Reid. No; that would not be unusual. Family or somebody wanted to drop by to see you they never have objected to that.
Mr. Belin. I think the record should show we are offering in evidence this morning, Mr. Dulles, Commission Exhibit 507 which is the diagram of the seventh floor which Officer Baker testified to.
Mr. Dulles. You want that admitted now?
Mr. Belin. We want that admitted now.
Mr. Dulles. No objection. It will be admitted.
(The diagram referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 507 for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. Belin. I think those are all the questions we have of Mrs. Reid.
We want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming up here, Mrs. Reid.
Mr. Dulles. Thank you very much, Mrs. Reid.
I will tell the Chief Justice of your cooperation and helpfulness.
We will reconvene at 2:30.
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF LUKE MOONEY
The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m.
Senator Cooper. The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Officer Baker, whose testimony has been heard; Mrs. Reid, Eugene Boone, Luke Mooney, and M. N. McDonald. Officer Baker and Mrs. Reid were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination. Deputy Sheriffs Boone and Mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after the assassination, and Officer McDonald apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald at the Texas Theatre.
Officer Mooney, will you raise your right hand?
You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Mooney. I do, sir.
Senator Cooper. You are informed now of the nature and purpose of this inquiry.
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper. Do you appear here voluntarily?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper. Do you have counsel with you?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir.
Senator Cooper. Do you desire counsel?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir.
Mr. Ball. Mr. Mooney, what is your occupation?
Mr. Mooney. I am a deputy sheriff, Dallas County, Tex.
Mr. Ball. How long have you been in that job?
Mr. Mooney. I have been on the force since February 1, 1958.
Mr. Ball. Where were you born?
Mr. Mooney. Hopkins County, south of Brashear.
Mr. Ball. Did you go to school there?
Mr. Mooney. I went to school at Middle Grove, Tex.
Mr. Ball. How far did you go through school?
Mr. Mooney. I finished high school there.
Mr. Ball. And then where did you go?
Mr. Mooney. Well, I finished making a crop—I was a farm boy. My father passed away. I started school at A. & M. and had to withdraw after my father's death, and come back home to my mother, because I was the only child at home. And later on I took a course in aeronautical work, at Luscomb School of Aeronautics, in Dallas, which is about—at that time was about 75 miles from my home, and finished the course, and worked for Luscomb in Garland, Tex., which is a suburb, or 15 miles out of Dallas.
And I worked there approximately a year before I was drafted into the U.S. armed services. I was 19 years old when I was drafted, one of the first.
Mr. Ball. How long were you in the service?
Mr. Mooney. From 1942—I went in December, I believe it was, 28th, 1942, and got out February 20, 1946. I believe that is correct.
Mr. Ball. And what did you do then, after that?
Mr. Mooney. I returned home on discharge, discharged out of the services, honorable discharge. And I went to Dallas again, come back to Dallas.
After a short couple of weeks vacation, so to speak, I took a business course at Drawns Business College in Dallas.
I finished the course there and was employed at Johnson Brothers Chevrolet Co. for 10 years, approximately 10 years, as a dispatcher in the service department, in charge of the shops. And for 2 years I worked for an automobile financing company, Associate Investment Co.
And after 2 years of service there, I was employed by the Dallas County Sheriff's Office, because I didn't desire to be transferred out of the city of Dallas.
Mr. Ball. What kind of work did you do for the sheriff's office?
Mr. Mooney. I worked in the Writ and Execution Department, Civil Law, Writ of Sequestrations and Executions. That is my principal job. However, we do everything that comes down.
Mr. Ball. What do you call that writ?
Mr. Mooney. Writ of Sequestration, or you might call it sequest.
Mr. Ball. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. Ball. What was your job on that day?
Mr. Mooney. I didn't have a special assignment. Some of the officers did out at the Market Hall. I was waiting in front of the Dallas Criminal Courts Building, which is the sheriff's office, and we were waiting outside on the front steps there. I was down on the sidewalk, off the steps, on the street level, waiting for the motorcade to approach.
Mr. Ball. Were you standing there when the President went by?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. I took my hat off.
Mr. Ball. That is on Main Street?
Mr. Mooney. Right.
Mr. Ball. And that is——
Mr. Mooney. 505 Main.
Mr. Ball. That is where the cavalcade turned north?
Mr. Mooney. Made a right turn, yes, sir; on Houston Street.
Mr. Ball. That building is about a block south on Houston, isn't it—south of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; it is a short block there.
Mr. Ball. After the President's car went by, what did you do?
Mr. Mooney. Well, we were—we was more or less milling around. We just kept standing there, more or less talking to one another.
I don't know how many seconds had elapsed—it wasn't too many.
Mr. Ball. You say "we." Who was with you?
Mr. Mooney. There was another officer there, Hiram Ingram—he is an officer, also, a deputy sheriff. And I believe Ralph Walters was standing there with me, and I believe there was a lady standing there, by the name of Martha Johnson, who is one of the judges' wife, a JP judge.
I believe Officer Boone was standing near us, also. And I don't recall how many more. There was a number of officers there.
Mr. Ball. What happened, as you remember?
Mr. Mooney. After that few seconds elapsed, we heard this shot ring out. At that time, I didn't realize it was a shot. The wind was blowing pretty high, and, of course, it echoed. I turned my head this way.
Mr. Ball. You mean to the right?
Mr. Mooney. To the right; yes, sir. We were facing more or less south. And I turned my head to the right.
Mr. Ball. That would be looking towards Houston Street?
Mr. Mooney. Looking towards the old court.
Well, when I turned my head to the right; yes, sir. I would be looking west. And there was a short lapse between these shots. I can still hear them very distinctly—between the first and second shot. The second and third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there between the first and second shot. Why, I don't know. But when that begin to take place—after the first shot we started moving out. And by the time I started running—all of us except Officer Ingram—he had a heart attack, and, of course, he wasn't qualified to do any running.
Mr. Ball. Which way?
Mr. Mooney. Due west, across Houston Street, went down across this lawn, across Elm Street there—I assume it is approximately the location the President was hit.
Of course the motorcade was gone. There wasn't anything there except a bunch of people, a lot of them laying on the ground, taking on, various things. I was running at full speed.
Mr. Ball. When you ran across Elm, where did you go?
Mr. Mooney. Across Elm, up the embankment, which is a high terrace there, across—there is a kind of concrete building there, more or less of a little park.
Jumped over the fence and went into the railroad yards. And, of course, there was other officers over there. Who they were, I don't recall at this time. But Ralph Walters and I were running together. And we jumped into the railroad yards and began to look around there.
And, of course, we didn't see anything there. Of course the other officers had checked into the car there, and didn't find anything, I don't believe, but a Negro porter. Of course there were quite a few spectators milling around behind us. We were trying to clear the area out and get all the civilians out that wasn't officers.
Mr. Ball. Why did you go over to the railroad yard?
Mr. Mooney. Well, that was—from the echo of the shots, we thought they came from that direction.
Mr. Ball. That would be north and west from where you were standing?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. To a certain extent—northwest. The way the echo sounded, the cracking of the shot. And we wasn't there many seconds—of course I never did look at my watch to see how many seconds it took us to run so many hundred yards there, and into the railroad yard. We were there only a few seconds until we had orders to cover the Texas Depository Building.
Mr. Ball. How did you get those orders?
Mr. Mooney. They were referred to us by the sheriff, Mr. Bill Decker.
Mr. Ball. Where was he when he gave you those orders?
Mr. Mooney. They were relayed on to us. I assume Mr. Decker was up near the intersection of Elm and Houston.
Mr. Ball. Did you hear it over a loudspeaker?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir. It come by word, by another officer.
Mr. Ball. And you were with Walters at that time?
Mr. Mooney. Right. And where Officer Walters went at that time, I don't know. We split up. I didn't see him any more until later on, which I will refer to later.
Mr. Ball. Where did you go?
Mr. Mooney. Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy.
Mr. Ball. They are deputy sheriffs?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back—I assume it is that distance—I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them—this used to be an old grocery store warehouse—Sachs & Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance.
Mr. Ball. Were the doors open?
Mr. Mooney. They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen.
So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over.
We shut the back door—there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.
Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner."
I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."
I said, "All right, get on, we are going."
Mr. Ball. Which elevator did you get on?
Mr. Mooney. It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.
Mr. Ball. There are two elevators there?
Mr. Mooney. I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.
Mr. Ball. You took the west one, or the east one?
Mr. Mooney. I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.
Mr. Ball. Did it work with a push button?
Mr. Mooney. It was a push button affair the best I can remember. I got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.
Mr. Ball. You were alone?
Mr. Mooney. I was alone at that time.
Mr. Ball. Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.
Mr. Ball. Were there any other officers on the floor?
Mr. Mooney. I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows—some of them were open over on the south side.
And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.
I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided—I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there—in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. We didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into it. We said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because we can't see. And so somebody made a statement that they believed floodlights was on the way. And I later found out that probably Officers Boone and Walters had gone after lights. I heard that.
And so we looked around up there for a short time. And then I says I am going back down on six.
At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was—he was coming up with a camera. Of course he wasn't taking any pictures. He was just looking, too, I assume. So I went back down ahead of Officers Vickery and Webster. They come in behind me down to the sixth floor.
I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there—that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain—at the same angle that the shots were fired from.
So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.
Well, so I hollered, or signaled—I hollered, I more or less hollered. I whistled a time or two before I got anybody to see me. And yet they was all looking that way, too—except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up.
And I told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that I had the location spotted.
So I stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until Captain Will Fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers. At that time, of course, when I hollered, of course Officers Vickery and Webster, they came across and later on several other deputies—I believe Officers McCurley, A. D. McCurley, I believe he came over. Where he came from—they was all en route up there, I assume.
Mr. Ball. I show you three pictures, Officer; for your convenience I will give you the pictures.
I have a picture here which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 508.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 508 for identification.)
Mr. Ball. Does that look anything like the southeast corner of the building as you saw it that afternoon?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. About what time of day was this?
Mr. Mooney. Well, it was approaching 1 o'clock. It could have been 1 o'clock.
Mr. Ball. Did you look at your watch?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir; I didn't. I should have, but I didn't look at my watch at the time to see what time it was.
Mr. Ball. Were you the only officer in that corner?
Mr. Mooney. At that very moment I was.
Mr. Ball. You say you squeezed behind certain boxes. Can you point out for me what boxes you squeezed through?
Mr. Mooney. If I remember correctly, I went in there from this angle right here—right through here. There could be a space. There is a space there I squeezed in between here, and that is when I got into the opening, because the minute I squeezed through there there lay the shells.
Mr. Ball. All right. Let's make a mark here. Is this the space?
Mr. Mooney. I believe that is going to be the space; yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. If I make an arrow on that, would that indicate it?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. There is another picture I have seen later that shows an opening in through here, but I didn't see that opening at that time.
Mr. Ball. That is the opening through which you squeezed? And it is an arrow shown on Exhibit 508.
Now, I will show you 509.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 509 for identification.)
Is that the way the boxes looked?
Mr. Mooney. That is the three boxes, but one of them was tilted off just a little, laying down on the edge, I believe, to my knowledge.
Mr. Ball. Now, does that look like——
Mr. Mooney. That is the three boxes that were there; yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Are they arranged as they were when you saw them?
Mr. Mooney. I am not positive. As I remember right, there was one box tilted off.
Mr. Ball. What were the boxes—did they have a label on them, two of the boxes?
Mr. Mooney. These do. I didn't notice the label at that time.
Mr. Ball. That is a picture of the window?
Mr. Mooney. Yes.
Mr. Ball. Do I understand that you say that it appeared to you that the top box was tilted?
Mr. Mooney. The end of it was laying this way.
Mr. Ball. You say there was a crease in a box. Where was that crease?
Mr. Mooney. This crease was right in this area of this box.
Mr. Ball. You mean over on the edge?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; on this far ledge here, where I am laying my finger.
Mr. Ball. Did it go into the box?
Mr. Mooney. Very slight crease, very slight.
Mr. Ball. Can you take this and point out about where the crease was on 509?
Now, was there anything you saw over in the corner?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir; I didn't see anything over in the corner. I did see this one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the right. It looked like he was facing——
Mr. Ball. Tell us where you found it?
Mr. Mooney. It would be laying over on the top of these other boxes. This here is kind of blurred.
Mr. Ball. We will get to that in a moment. Now, I show you 510.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 510 for identification.)
Mr. Ball. Is that the empty shells you found?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Are they shown there?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Now, will you take this and encircle the shells?
Mr. Mooney. All right.
Mr. Ball. Put a fairly good sized circle around each shell. That is the way they were when you saw them, is that right?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. I assume that this possibly could have been the first shot.
Mr. Ball. You cannot speculate about that?
Mr. Mooney. You cannot speculate about that.
Mr. Ball. Those were empty shells?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. They were turned over to Captain Fritz?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; he was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick them up and look at them. As far as I could tell, I couldn't even tell what caliber they were, because I didn't get down that close to them. They were brass cartridges, brass shells.
Mr. Ball. Is this the position of the cartridges as shown on 510, as you saw them?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. That is just about the way they were laying, to the best of my knowledge. I do know there was—one was further away, and these other two were relatively close together—on this particular area. But these cartridges—this one and this one looks like they are further apart than they actually was.
Mr. Ball. Which ones?
Mr. Mooney. This one and this one.
Mr. Ball. Now, two cartridges were close together, is that right?
Mr. Mooney. The one cartridge here, by the wall facing, is right. And this one and this one, they were further away from this one.
Mr. Ball. Well——
Mr. Mooney. But as to being positive of the exact distance——
Mr. Ball. You think that the cartridges are in the same position as when you saw them in this picture 510?
Mr. Mooney. As far as my knowledge, they are; pretty close to right.
Mr. Ball. Well, we will label these cartridges, the empty shells as "A", "B", and "C."
Now, I didn't quite understand—did you say it was your memory that "A" and "B" were not that close together?
Mr. Mooney. Just from my memory, it seems that this cartridge ought to have been over this way a little further.
Mr. Ball. You mean the "B" cartridge should be closer to the "C?"
Mr. Mooney. Closer to the "C"; yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Now, I have another picture here which I should like to have marked as 511.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 511 for identification.)
Mr. Ball. Does this appear to be—first of all, does that appear——
Mr. Mooney. There are two cartridges.
Where is the third one?
Mr. Ball. The third one is not in this picture. This is taken from another angle.
Mr. Mooney. This looks more like it than this angle here.
Mr. Ball. You can see it is a different angle.
Mr. Mooney. That is right.
Mr. Ball. Now, in this same picture—511, you see a box in the window. Does that seem to be about the angle——
Mr. Mooney. Yes; that box was tilted.
Mr. Ball. That was tilted in that way?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Now, when you made a crease on 509, the box shown in 509——
Mr. Mooney. The box should have been actually tilted.
Mr. Ball. In other words, it was your testimony, was it, that the box as shown in 509 was not as you first saw it?
Mr. Mooney. If I recall it right, this box was tilted. It had fallen off—looked like he might have knocked it off.
Mr. Ball. Well, you cannot speculate to that, but you can just tell us what you saw. What about the box in the window shown in 511?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Is that the box that had the crease on it?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; I believe that is correct.
Mr. Ball. Now, the crease was—started from the edge, and came across?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; just a slight crease.
Mr. Ball. I have another picture. This is 512.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 512 for identification.)
Mr. Ball. Here is a picture taken, also, from another angle. Does that show the cartridges?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Now, compare that with 510.
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Is that about the way it looked?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; that is right. It sure is.
Mr. Ball. Now, were the boxes, as you saw them, on the extreme left side of the window, the middle of the window, or the right side.
Mr. Mooney. Well, they were further over to the left of the window than over to the right. More or less as they are in there in that picture.
Mr. Ball. In 509?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Now, the boxes are in about the right position with reference to——
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; because I had room enough to stand right here, and lean out this window, without disturbing the boxes.
Mr. Ball. You could stand on the right of the boxes?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. And put your head out the window?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. If I recall, I put my hand on the outside of this ledge.
Mr. Ball. And put your head out the window?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper. Was the window open when you got there?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. If you stood to the left of the boxes, could you have looked out the window?
Mr. Mooney. I don't believe I could, without disturbing them. Possibly I might have, could have, but I just didn't try it.
Mr. Ball. Now, I show you Exhibit 513.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 513, for identification.)
Mr. Ball. This is another view of that window.
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Did you see it from that angle?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir; I never did.
Mr. Ball. You don't think you have ever seen it——
Mr. Mooney. From that angle.
Mr. Ball. Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone?
Mr. Mooney. If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.
Mr. Ball. Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?
Mr. Mooney. There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. Ball. By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. Mooney. Right.
Mr. Ball. Where was that?
Mr. Mooney. Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. Ball. On the same carton?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack—it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.
Senator Cooper. How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box that had the crease in it?
Mr. Mooney. I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there.
Senator Cooper. You mean if someone had been standing near the box with the crease in it?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper. It would have been that approximate distance to the chicken leg and paper bag?
Mr. Mooney. Sir?
Senator Cooper. And the paper bag you spoke of?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; they were in close relation to each other, yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. How big a bag was it?
Mr. Mooney. Well, as to the number—these bags are numbered, I understand. But it was—I don't know what the number you would call it, but it didn't stand more than that high.
Mr. Ball. About 12 inches?
Mr. Mooney. About 8 to 10 inches, at the most.
Mr. Ball. What color was the bag?
Mr. Mooney. It was brown. Just a regular paper bag. Just as a grocery store uses for their produce and what-have-you.
Mr. Ball. Did you see any soda pop?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Ball. Did you see a paper bag at any other window?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Ball. Any other chicken bones?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir.
Mr. Ball. Did you see a Dr. Pepper bottle any place?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir; except in the picture.
Mr. Ball. You didn't see it?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir.
Mr. Ball. When you say you have seen the picture, I will show you the picture, and let me see if that is the one you mean you have seen. That is Commission 484. This picture has been shown to you, hasn't it?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. I showed you that.
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. And you did not see that two-wheel truck?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir.
Mr. Ball. You did not see the Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir.
Mr. Ball. You didn't see a paper sack anywhere near a two-wheel truck or a Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir; in my running around up there, I didn't observe it. Possibly it was there. I am sure it was. But I didn't check it.
Mr. Ball. How long did you stay there?
Mr. Mooney. Sir?
Mr. Ball. How long did you stay up on the sixth floor? After you found the location of the three cartridges?
Mr. Mooney. Well, I stayed up there not over 15 or 20 minutes longer—after Captain Will Fritz and his officers came over there, Captain Fritz picked up the cartridges, began to examine them, of course I left that particular area. By that time there was a number of officers up there. The floor was covered with officers, And we were searching, trying to find the weapon at that time.
Mr. Ball. Were you there when it was found?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. I was searching under these books and between them and up on the ledges and the joists, we was just looking everywhere. And I was about 10 or 15 steps at the most from Officer Boone when he hollered, "Here is the gun."
Mr. Ball. Did you go over there?
Mr. Mooney. I stepped over there.
Mr. Ball. What did you see?
Mr. Mooney. I had to look twice before I actually saw the gun laying in there. I had to get around to the right angle before I could see it. And there the gun lay, stuck between these cartons in an upright position. The scope was up.
Mr. Ball. Well, now, I will show you a picture, 514.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 514, for identification.)
Senator Cooper. May I ask—did you change the position of the shells which you have identified?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir; I didn't have my hands on them.
Senator Cooper. Or the bag, or chicken leg?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir.
Senator Cooper. Until—before the chief came?
Mr. Mooney. Captain Will Fritz; yes, sir; he is the chief.
Senator Cooper. Was there any odor in the area when you first got there?
Mr. Mooney. I didn't particularly notice any. Now, there could have been a slight powder odor there.
(At this point, Mr. Warren entered the hearing room.)
Senator Cooper. Did you smell any powder?
Mr. Mooney. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Of course it was musty odor, with all those cartons and books there.
Mr. Ball. Do you see the picture which is 514? Does it look like anything like that?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; with the exception there was more cartons around it than that. In other words, the way it looked to me, when I walked over there—of course these may have been disturbed at a later date.
Mr. Ball. It looks like there are more cartons?
Mr. Mooney. No; there is less cartons around it right now. Of course that is looking straight down. Now, there are some more boxes here.
Mr. Ball. I show you a picture which we will mark as 515.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 515 for identification.)
Mr. Mooney. But that is in the position the gun was laying.
Mr. Ball. That is about the position of the gun?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball. Now, here is a picture of that marked stairway. Can you orient yourself from that picture?
Mr. Mooney. Let's see. Here is the staircase right in here. If I remember right, the gun was either in this crack or this one here. I don't remember which.
Mr. Ball. Does that show you about the number of cartons around?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir; that is the way it looked; sure did. Because I had to stand up back here, before I could see over off in there.
Mr. Ball. And when you did look down there between the cartons, was the gun——
Mr. Mooney. It was sitting in that position. The scope was up.
Mr. Ball. As shown in 514?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. That is the way it was laying, in that position.
Senator Cooper. It was lying on the floor?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir.
Senator Cooper. With the scope on the upper side?
Mr. Mooney. The scope in upright position. The stock was back to the east. In other words, the gun was pointed west.
Mr. Ball. Did a photographer come up and take pictures when you were there?
Mr. Mooney. There was a number of photographers up there shooting pictures. Who they were or who they represented—I assume it was the press.
Mr. Ball. How long were they there?
Mr. Mooney. They were there when all these officers and everybody was up there.
Mr. Ball. I have no further questions.
Senator Cooper. How far was it from the place where the gun was found, from where you first saw the rifle, to the window?
Mr. Mooney. You mean how far was it from the gun to the window?
Senator Cooper. Yes; where you saw the shells.
Mr. Mooney. Well, it was clear across the entire sixth floor, thereabouts. In other words, if you take the location from where the shells were found, they were in the southeast corner. And this was in the far northwest corner. Just right there at the staircase.
And the distance across there, I just don't know how far it is, but it is quite a large warehouse floor.
Mr. Ball. I have no further questions. I would like to offer the exhibits up to 515, inclusive. May this witness be excused?
The Chairman. Any questions, Senator Cooper?
Senator Cooper. As you examined these exhibits, you gave your best judgment, your recollection of the location of the boxes and the shells.
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. The way I remember, sir, is——
Senator Cooper. The chicken and the paper bag?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. I do remember that the one box was tilted off, laying partially over on the legs.
Senator Cooper. That was the box which you said you observed a crease in?
Mr. Mooney. Yes, sir. Just very slight, very slight.
Senator Cooper. Is that the box which was the top box?
Mr. Mooney. The way I remember, the two boxes and the third one was the one tilted off. It looked like it possibly could have been knocked off from a movement, because it wasn't naturally placed that way by hand for any purpose, because it wouldn't have had any purpose, to my knowledge.
Senator Cooper. Let the exhibits which have been offered be admitted in evidence.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 508 through 515, were received in evidence.)
Mr. Mooney. In other words, if you just run against it, you would have knocked it off.
The Chairman. Thank you very much for coming, sir. You have been very helpful.
Mr. Ball. Our next witness is Deputy Sheriff Boone.