TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED
Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, I would like to turn now to the pictures of your husband that I asked you about earlier, when you identified the gray camera as the one that was used in taking the pictures. And I called your attention to Commission Exhibits Nos. 133-A and 133-B. I now wish to ask you specifically whether you used that camera that you saw identified for the taking of both of these pictures. And in so doing, I wish to call your attention to the fact that there were two different positions in the exhibits.
Mrs. Oswald. I took both these pictures at the same time, and with the same camera.
Mr. Rankin. And in giving that answer, you have examined the pictures, and you know they are different positions—that is, your husband has the rifle in different positions and the newspaper in different positions in the two pictures—do you?
Mrs. Oswald. I am aware of that.
Mr. Rankin. Mrs. Oswald, did you ever have a discussion with your husband about when he decided that he would like to become a citizen of the Soviet Union?
Mrs. Oswald. We discussed this and he said that the Soviet Government wanted him to become a Soviet citizen and furnished him the necessary papers, but he apparently refused. But the way it appears in his diary, of course, is quite different—in fact, the exact opposite.
Mr. Rankin. By the exact opposite, you mean that it shows in his diary that he was the one that wanted to be a Soviet citizen, and the Soviet Union refused to allow that; is that right?
Mrs. Oswald. That is correct.
Representative Ford. When did this conversation on this subject take place, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. Oswald. About 3 months after we were married.
Representative Ford. While you were living in Minsk?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Representative Ford. Do you remember how the discussion came up?
Mrs. Oswald. When Lee wrote the American Embassy requesting return to the United States and requesting an American passport, he told me that it was very lucky that he hadn't become a Soviet citizen, and that his passport was still in the American Embassy. And that if he had become a Soviet citizen, it would have been difficult if not impossible to leave.
Before I found out about his diary, I didn't realize that the Soviet Government had refused to grant him citizenship, because he never talked about this, never mentioned it.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chief Justice, that is the end of the questioning that I planned to examine Mrs. Oswald about. I understand that Congressman Ford has some.
I would like before closing to make an offer of what has been marked now as Commission Exhibit No. 993, which is the story that Mrs. Oswald developed in Russian that was furnished to us, and I want to inform the Commission that it was furnished to us for the purpose of trying to examine Mrs. Oswald the first time, and that counsel at that time and present counsel wanted to make it very clear that they didn't want to lose any property interest in that document. And all rights that they might have to publish it and use it commercially and any other way that she might have, and that it was merely furnished to the Commission for official purposes and very strictly limited in that manner. But I would like to offer it and the Commission may want to reserve its decision as to whether it should be made a part of the record and published. But I think it should at this time be offered for your consideration in that manner.
The Chairman. Yes. Does counsel wish to add anything to that?
Mr. McKenzie. Yes, Mr. Chairman; I would, if I may, sir.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. McKenzie. I appreciate Mr. Rankin's remarks in connection with the offering of Mrs. Oswald's memoirs, or manuscript of her memoirs, which, I understand, is Commission Exhibit No. 993. The manuscript prepared by Mrs. Oswald was heretofore voluntarily presented for the sole and exclusive purpose of assisting the Commission in its official duties for the Commission's use and benefit and to help the Commission in evaluating Mrs. Oswald's testimony as well as the testimony of others in arriving at a report setting forth its findings and conclusions to the President and the American people.
Mrs. Oswald and her two minor children have property rights that are private to her and to them in the publishing and use of the memoirs set forth in her manuscript, which was written solely for her use in writing a book for commercial purposes. She does object to the inclusion of the manuscript in the record, or the publishing of same, and she does not waive or relinquish or in anyway legally or otherwise give away her proprietary rights in this regard, to the manuscript.
She respectfully requests that the Commission honor her request in what has heretofore been deemed and what she now deems to be her assistance to the Commission—and I will say this—that she has told me repeatedly that she has sought to assist the Commission in every possible and conceivable way. But in light of that, she does respect the Commission's indulgence in not publishing this manuscript, and asks that this only be used as it was presented for the purpose of assisting the Commission in its official duties, in evaluating the evidence.
The Chairman. Do you have any suggestions as to how we might use it and at the same time not permanently deprive the public of an opportunity to see it?
Before you answer that, I want to say this. I am sure no member of the Commission wants to—has any desire to in anyway interfere with the property rights of Mrs. Oswald. She did cooperate with us in bringing this. We feel grateful that she did do it. On the other hand, we do want eventually to have this in the record so the public will know that they are getting everything that the Commission has. I am just wondering if perhaps while you are contemplating writing something on the subject, and protecting her property rights, if we could seal this with a notation that it was not to be opened for public view until that has been done. And you could let us know when that day has passed. Would that protect her rights?
Mr. McKenzie. Well, Mr. Chief Justice, I would be the last one in the world to suggest anything either to yourself or to the Commission insofar as the way this matter should be handled. I do have, or feel, that the manuscript was given to the Commission, the Commission has had more than adequate opportunity to interrogate Mrs. Oswald. She is willing to stay here now as long as the Commission desires, and will do so voluntarily without the issuance of a subpena or any other way.
I think through the interrogation that Mr. Rankin has conducted—I might remark, most ably—that certainly the matters covered in the manuscript have already been covered in direct sworn testimony. And with that thought in mind, it was my feeling, and it is my feeling that the Commission and its staff, through the help and assistance of the manuscript and Mrs. Oswald, have had the benefit of all the matters previously written down by Mrs. Oswald, and that if there are any questions that have not been covered that are covered in the manuscript, I am sure that counsel for the Commission could adequately cover those questions. The manuscript was prepared by Mrs. Oswald in the form of memoirs. And was not prepared for the use of the Commission. And I think without the Commission's knowledge—it was prepared beforehand. And she brought it so the Commission could have the effect of it and the use of it. Now, if the Commission feels that it should be finally published as part of the Commission's report, I would certainly hope that the Commission would honor her request and withhold the publishing of the manuscript until such time as she has had the opportunity to conclude any negotiations which she might have or might possibly have for the publishing of a book.
I ask this not so much for Mrs. Oswald herself, but more for her two minor children.
The Chairman. Well, we will do at least that. We will take the matter under consideration and having in mind her rights and our desire not to interfere with them we will try to work out a solution that will be satisfactory to you and to her.
Mr. McKenzie. I thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice. And I might also add that the Chief Justice and all members of this Commission and its staff know full well, or at least I feel would know full well that just as soon as this report is published and distributed to the public, or distributed to the press, regardless of what property rights she may have now or may have then, it will be extremely difficult for Mrs. Oswald to protect those rights—if not impossible.
The Chairman. I would like to say, also, for the record that there is nothing sensational or nothing of a secretive nature in the document. It is something that, as you say, was written for publication, and we assume that it will be some day published, probably, and that if it is not given to the public, it will not be because there is anything of a secret nature in there. It would only be a question of whether it could be done consistent with the rights of the witness. And we will bear those in mind, you may be sure.
Mr. McKenzie. I thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
And if I may add one other thing. I have heretofore made a request on Mr. Rankin in connection with a diary which was presented by Robert Oswald at the time of his testimony to the Commission, that Robert Oswald had prepared shortly after November 22, and which not only has he furnished the diary to the Commission, but has also narrated that diary by reading same on dictaphone tapes, and I have, in turn, furnished it to Mr. Jenner, a member of the Commission's staff.
I have requested the Commission not to print Robert Oswald's diary for the same reasons that I have heretofore outlined in connection with Mrs. Oswald's manuscript. And I would hope that the Commission could consider Robert Oswald's diary in the same light that you would consider this manuscript. I am not saying that either have any commercial value, but if they do I would hope that they would inure to the benefit of Mrs. Oswald's family and the benefit of Robert Oswald's family.
The Chairman. Yes. We will consider that, also. But there are some portions of the diary of Mr. Oswald that are in the record already as a result of his examination, as there are things involved in this document of Mrs. Oswald's that are in the record by question and answer.
Mr. McKenzie. There is one other thing, and then I will close on this particular subject. Mrs. Oswald does not have a copy of the manuscript of her memoirs. Her former attorney, Mr. Thorne, or her former so-called business manager, Mr. James Martin, reportedly to me has such a copy. But at the present time she does not have a copy of this manuscript nor do I have a copy of the manuscript.
The Chairman. You may have one immediately.
Mr. McKenzie. Fine, sir—I would like to say at the Commission's expense.
The Chairman. Yes; of course, we will see you have one.
Mr. McKenzie. At the time that Robert Oswald gave his testimony to the Commission, Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebler followed the practice of taking originals and photostating them or Xerox copying them and giving the originals back. Before we do close today, I would like to make a request on the record to have all the articles that Marina has brought up here in the way of letters and things of that sort returned to her, with, of course, adequate copies for the Commission and its use. And I don't know whether you have any or not.
Mr. Rankin. You have made your request.
The Chairman. We will consider that along with the other things. Mr. Rankin, will you continue now?
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Coulter, could you state for the record whether you have related this colloquy to Mrs. Oswald, so that she is informed of it?
Mr. Coulter. I gave it to her in general terms, that they were discussing the question of the rights to her manuscript and the rights to the originals of the various objects in her possession, which she had made available to the Commission.
Mr. Rankin. Thank you.
(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chief Justice, I have one other offer to make, and I would like to offer it under Exhibit No. 994, and that would be a translation of this document, that would present the same problems.
We have a translation that was made by Mr. Gopadze, the Secret Service agent, who is quite familiar with the Russian language. But we earlier today had a letter that Mrs. Oswald wrote to the Civil Liberties Union of Dallas, and she questioned some of the translation from Russian into English, which was not done by any of our people, of course. And we are not so sure about Mr. Gopadze's translation. So we would like to follow what was suggested at that time, that Mr. Coulter make a translation of this, which we would submit to counsel for Mrs. Oswald, and Mrs. Oswald, for them to be satisfied it is a correct translation, and then make that translation a part of the record, subject to your deciding later whether it should be.
The Chairman. Well, instead of referring it to Mr. Coulter, we will refer it to Mrs. Oswald's attorney, and he can have prepared any translation that he wishes, and then we will have it for comparison with the other.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chief Justice, I thought we would save them the expense.
The Chairman. I would rather deal directly with the counsel, and then we are not in any cross purposes. He can have it done any way he wants.
Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Chief Justice, with your kind indulgence, sir, and the Commission's kind indulgence, Mr. Coulter's translation of this document would be more than satisfactory with Mrs. Oswald and with myself. And, quite frankly, the funds which she has available to her for such a purpose are so extremely limited that it would be an extreme hardship on her to employ an interpreter to translate it.
The Chairman. That is perfectly all right, that Mr. Coulter should do it. I have no objection at all to Mr. Coulter. Only when we are dealing with a client of a lawyer, we like to deal directly with him, and he can deal with the translator if he wishes.
Mr. McKenzie. I think we are both trying to serve the same purpose. But Mr. Rankin and I, I think, are in full agreement on Mr. Coulter's interpretation of this manuscript—if that is satisfactory with the Commission.
The Chairman. Yes; if it is satisfactory with you, it is satisfactory with me. There is no question about that.
Mrs. Oswald. Maybe in this manuscript many details are lacking which have been developed in my testimony, because I wrote it mainly for public consumption.
Mr. Rankin. We understand, Mrs. Oswald. I am sure the Commissioners all understand that the manuscript is something that was referred to in order to inquire from you during your giving of testimony, and that your testimony, together with the manuscript, should be considered if there is any question, because you do not purport to cover everything in the manuscript. Is that what you are saying?
Mrs. Oswald. I am very ashamed that there is so much unnecessary information in this manuscript and that it caused the interpreter so much difficulty in translating it.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chief Justice, I then offer under Exhibit No. 994, and I make, without repeating them, the same suggestions I did about the Russian document, Exhibit No. 993, and ask that we follow the procedure of getting the translation, and then make it a part of this record, subject to the Commission's determining that it should be.
The Chairman. It may be done in that manner.
The Chairman. Congressman Ford, do you have some matters?
Mrs. Oswald. I would like to know if the Commission wants me to make some comment on any differences in substance between the manuscript and the testimony which I have given, or between the manuscript or the translation, whichever translation may be accepted, or both.
The Chairman. The Commission will ask the questions, if there is anything of that nature. Now, Congressman Ford, do you have some questions?
Representative Ford. Yes, Mr. Chief Justice, I have a few questions. In the Soviet Union, when a marriage application is applied for, what are the steps that you take?
Mrs. Oswald. There are certain applications which have to be filled out by the boy and girl.
Representative Ford. Do you have to go down together to make the application?
Mrs. Oswald. It is necessary for both to appear with their passports and fill out this application.
Representative Ford. In other words, Lee Harvey Oswald had to take his passport down to—at the time that he applied for a marriage application?
Mrs. Oswald. Lee Oswald did not have his passport at the time since it was in the American Embassy. He went with his residence permission to the office. But our marriage was entered into his American passport after we were married and before we left the Soviet Union for the United States.
Representative Ford. So it is not the passport in the sense that we think of a passport, that we get to travel to a foreign country?
Mrs. Oswald. Since most marriages are concluded between Soviet citizens, they only present their internal passports to the marriage license bureau. But if there is a marriage between a Soviet citizen and a foreigner, he presents his residence permission and his foreign passport, also, if he has one. If he doesn't have it, the residence permission is enough.
Representative Ford. Do we have the document that he presented at the time he applied for marriage?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. I think he had to turn that in before he left the Soviet Union.
Mr. McKenzie. Are you referring to his American passport?
Representative Ford. No; I am referring to the document that he presented at the time he applied for marriage.
Mr. McKenzie. Which would be a Russian instrument?
Representative Ford. Right.
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know if it is available. I think he had to turn it in before he left the Soviet Union.
Representative Ford. In other words, both you and Lee Harvey Oswald signed the necessary documents for marriage?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Representative Ford. During your period in Minsk, following your marriage, did you and Lee Harvey Oswald have any marital difficulties, any problems between the two of you?
Mrs. Oswald. We had some difficulties in connection with the fact that I told my uncle and aunt that we were going to leave for the United States. Lee did not want me to tell anybody that we were preparing to leave for the United States.
Representative Ford. That was the only difficulty you had?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Representative Ford. Was your vacation trip to Kharkov—was that a vacation, or did that result from any marital difficulty?
Mrs. Oswald. My aunt invited me to Kharkov, and that is why I went. It was not the result of any marital difficulties.
Representative Ford. You testified a few minutes ago, Mrs. Oswald, that there was a difference in the historic diary and what Lee Oswald told you concerning the status of his application for Soviet citizenship. You have read the historic diary?
Mrs. Oswald. I have only read what the FBI agents translated, those parts of the diary which were translated into Russian by the FBI.
Representative Ford. Was that much of it or a small part of it?
Mrs. Oswald. It was the part about his attempt at suicide.
Representative Ford. And also the part concerning the status of his Soviet citizenship?
Mrs. Oswald. I think that that is the part which deals with his application for Soviet citizenship. I don't know of any other parts of the diary in which this would be set forth.
Representative Ford. You have no idea of when he wrote the historic diary?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know when he began, but I know that after we were married he spent the evenings writing his diary. I think that is the reason why he didn't want me to study English while we were still in Russia, because he didn't want me to be able to read his diary.
Representative Ford. He never read you the diary in Russian?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Representative Ford. On the trip back to the United States, Lee Oswald wrote on the Holland-American Line paper some additional comments. Did you see him write this on the trip?
Mrs. Oswald. I saw him writing this when we were in the cabin on the ship. I thought they were just letters, though, and I didn't read them. He didn't write these when I was around.
Representative Ford. He didn't write them while you were present?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. Redlich. I might mention for the record that this document has already been introduced as Commission Exhibit No. 25.
Representative Ford. If you didn't see him write it in the cabin how did you know he wrote it?
Mrs. Oswald. In the first place, because the paper was from the Holland-American Line, and then I think—in the second place, because I saw these pages covered with writing in the cabin, and I think that he must have gone some place else on the ship, such as the library, to do the actual writing.
Representative Ford. Have you read that which he wrote on the ship?
Mrs. Oswald. No; I have not read them, because I don't understand English.
Representative Ford. He never read it to you in Russian?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Representative Ford. At any time on the trip back, from the time you started to leave the Soviet Union until you arrived in the United States, did you have any trouble at the border of the Soviet Union or any other country?
Mrs. Oswald. We had no difficulty with the authorities of any kind on any border. I think that my husband may have had some financial difficulties in New York, when he arrived.
Representative Ford. You left the Soviet Union by what means, now?
Mrs. Oswald. Train and boat.
Representative Ford. You went from the Soviet Union to Poland by train?
Mrs. Oswald. We took a train from Moscow to Amsterdam, through Poland and Germany.
Representative Ford. You had no difficulty going into Poland, going through Germany?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Representative Ford. Or into Holland?
Mrs. Oswald. No. And there were no difficulties in our entering the United States, either.
Representative Ford. When you were living at Elsbeth Street, did you and Lee have any domestic trouble?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Representative Ford. Could you relate how frequently and how serious they were?
Mrs. Oswald. The first difficulty we had was at Elsbeth Street when I told the landlady that I was from Russia. My husband had told her that I was from Czechoslovakia, and he became very angry with me for telling her I was from Russia, and said that I talked too much.
Representative Ford. That was the first incident?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Representative Ford. Were there others?
Mrs. Oswald. Then we had difficulties because I had a number of Russian friends in Elsbeth Street, around there, in Dallas, and he was jealous of me, and didn't want me to see them.
Representative Ford. During this time, did he physically abuse you? Did he hit you?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Representative Ford. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt reprimand Lee for his abuse to you?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know. He didn't support this. He didn't favor this conduct of my husband's. But I don't think he ever said anything to him about it, or told him that he shouldn't do it.
Representative Ford. Mr. De Mohrenschildt didn't say anything to Lee Oswald in your presence about his abuse towards you?
Mrs. Oswald. No; not in my presence.
Representative Ford. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt take you to Mellers, was it?
Mrs. Oswald. Anna Meller—no; he did not.
Representative Ford. Mr. De Mohrenschildt did not take you there?
Mrs. Oswald. No; we had a quarrel, and I took the child and took a taxi, and went by myself there.
Representative Ford. Did you have money to pay for a taxi?
Mrs. Oswald. Anna Meller paid for the taxi.
Representative Ford. When you got to Anna Meller's?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Representative Ford. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Dulles, do you have any questions?
Mr. Dulles. A couple, Mr. Chief Justice.
You have described this morning briefly the manner of your life in Minsk. I wonder if you would also now discuss that in the United States. What did you do with your leisure time, how did Oswald handle his leisure time when he wasn't working?
I am speaking of your stays in Dallas, Fort Worth, and New Orleans.
Mrs. Oswald. My life in the United States was not quite as carefree as it had been in the Soviet Union. I was occupied all the time with housework, and I couldn't go anywhere. Lee spent a good deal of time reading.
Mr. Dulles. Were you together most of the time?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Dulles. So that you knew where Lee was. Lee wasn't away on trips much of the time, except for his trip to Mexico, and when he was absent in New Orleans?
Mrs. Oswald. That is correct. We were together.
Mr. Dulles. Do you know what he was reading in those days?
Mrs. Oswald. He read nonfiction almost entirely and mainly historical works.
Mr. Dulles. Was he reading Russian books or mostly English books?
Mrs. Oswald. He could read Russian, but he read only English works.
Mr. Dulles. Was he doing much writing in this period, during the American stay?
Mrs. Oswald. When we were living on Elsbeth Street, he wrote something, and also on Neely Street, I think it was in connection with the Walker, General Walker incident.
Mr. Dulles. Do you know what happened to that particular writing?
Mrs. Oswald. I know that he destroyed this after the Walker business.
He had a map of Dallas, and he used to go off by himself and think about the map, and work on it. I think you have this map in among the materials of the Commission. He used to work on it, and the least disturbance used to upset him very much when he was working on this map.
Mr. Dulles. When you say he used to go away, do you mean go away in the house or outside the house with the map?
Mrs. Oswald. In the house, in the kitchen, and would tell me not to come in, not to make any noise at all.
Mr. Dulles. Could you specify as to time and date, as to about when he acquired this map and began this study of the map?
Mrs. Oswald. Could I ask the Commission just when we were living on Elsbeth Street, since I have forgotten?
Mr. Redlich. November 1962 to March 1963. November 3, 1962 to March 2, 1963.
Mrs. Oswald. I think it was at the end of January, it was after New Years. I think he had a map all the time, but he started becoming particularly occupied with it at the end of January 1963.
Mr. Dulles. 1963?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. Dulles. Did Oswald, to your knowledge, have friends, associates, other men whom he saw, in addition to the considerable number whom you have described as your friends in Dallas and Fort Worth, whom you have already described? Did he have any business friends or any other friends you can think of that used to come to the house?
Mrs. Oswald. No one, except for my friends whom I have already told you about.
Mr. Dulles. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.
The Chairman. Congressman, did you have any more?
Mr. Dulles. I was speaking of the United States.
Mrs. Oswald. Yes; he told me that he was working on this map in connection with the bus schedules. He had a kind of bus schedule, and—a paper with bus schedules on it, and he was somehow comparing them or working on them, or doing something with these two documents.
The Chairman. Congressman Ford?
Representative Ford. When you left the Soviet Union, Lee borrowed money from the U.S. Government to pay for your transportation back to the United States. Did you have any other money of your own at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. We had—it is permissible to exchange a certain amount of Soviet rubles into American dollars in such cases, and we did exchange some Soviet rubles—I think about $180 worth—when we left. But that wasn't enough to pay the whole trip.
Representative Ford. Lee had borrowed from the Government approximately $600?
Mr. Rankin. $450, and then the exchange made a total of $600 and something.
Representative Ford. This $180 was used with the State Department money for the transportation and the funds for the trip?
Mrs. Oswald. I don't know, since my husband took care of that whole matter. He never talked about money with me.
Representative Ford. Would you describe one of the border crossings? What did the Government officials do when you went from Poland into Germany, for example? Tell us what actually happened.
Mrs. Oswald. The train stopped and people come in and check your documents.
On the Russian border, of course, people come in and look at your bags—that is to say, they don't rifle through everything, but they pick things at random and look at them.
Representative Ford. Did Lee carry all the documents?
Mrs. Oswald. He carried all the documents, since I had the baby to look after.
Representative Ford. At the Polish-German border, did they actually examine the documents?
Mrs. Oswald. More carefully between Russia and Poland than between Poland and Germany.
Representative Ford. Did Lee make any acquaintances on the train and the boat?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Representative Ford. Did——
Mrs. Oswald. On the boat there were two Rumanian girls we talked with, since I had studied a little bit of Moldavian before, which is similar to Russian, and could speak a little. And on that basis we met and talked a little.
Representative Ford. Did George De Mohrenschildt at any time take you any place from the Elsbeth Street residence?
Mrs. Oswald. Only to his house.
Representative Ford. Did Lee accompany you at that time?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes; once he took us both home to see his daughter. He took us—took me to see his daughter, at a time when I was living in Fort Worth, and Lee was living in Dallas. I might be confused about just who went, and when.
Representative Ford. But he only took you once from one place to his house?
Mrs. Oswald. No; we went several times to his house. Maybe two or three times.
Representative Ford. Did Lee accompany you on any of these occasions?
Mrs. Oswald. Mr. De Mohrenschildt took us once to the Ford's house. It was on New Year's, I think, Katya Ford's house. It was either Christmas or New Year's. I don't think that Mr. De Mohrenschildt is as dangerous as he sounds. This is my personal opinion.
Representative Ford. I wasn't implying that he was dangerous. I was just trying to——
Mrs. Oswald. He talks all the time. Did he appear before the Commission or not?
Mr. Rankin. We have his testimony.
Representative Ford. I have nothing further.
The Chairman. I think that is all, Mrs. Oswald. Thank you very much.
Mr. McKenzie. I have some questions, if I may.
The Chairman. Yes; Mr. McKenzie.
Mr. McKenzie. You mentioned earlier, in response to some question, that your husband had stated that the Soviet Government wanted him to become a Soviet citizen, but that his diary says the opposite.
When did you first learn that the Soviet Government wanted Lee Harvey Oswald to become a Soviet citizen?
Mrs. Oswald. I heard this 3 months after we were married, from Lee.
Mr. McKenzie. Did any Soviet——
Mr. Dulles. Who did you hear it from?
Mrs. Oswald. From Lee.
Mr. McKenzie. Did any Soviet Government official come to see you or Lee after you were married, and visit with you?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. McKenzie. Did Lee, from time to time, have to report to any Soviet Government agency after you were married?
Mrs. Oswald. Yes.
Mr. McKenzie. And how often did he make a report to a government official or to a government agency?
Mrs. Oswald. He had to go every month or every 3 months. I don't remember how often. It was either every month or every 2 or 3 and get a stamp in his residence permit.
Mr. McKenzie. And how long would he be gone on those occasions from home, or from work?
Mrs. Oswald. About half an hour.
Mr. McKenzie. You have mentioned that he had Cuban friends and friends from the Argentine in Minsk. Did he ever have any Mexican friends in Minsk?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. McKenzie. Did he ever mention to you anyone that he knew in Mexico, either from Cuba or from the Soviet Union or from any other place, any name of anyone?
Mrs. Oswald. He might have had some, but I don't know anything about any of them. He never mentioned it.
Mr. McKenzie. It has been reported that—in the papers—that at the time you left New Orleans, or at the time that Lee Harvey Oswald left New Orleans, that he had two books on Marxism and a fiction book written by Ian Fleming called "To Russia With Love." Do you recall seeing that book there in the apartment?
Mrs. Oswald. I only knew about the two books on Marxism and Leninism. I don't know anything about this third one.
Mr. McKenzie. And those books you know about, were they books from the public library in New Orleans?
Mrs. Oswald. I think these were his own private possession. I think he had even a book in English when he was in Russia on Marxism.
Mr. McKenzie. After your arrival in the United States, and after you had left Fort Worth, and had moved into your own apartment, did your husband have any money?
Mrs. Oswald. When he left Dallas for Fort Worth?
Mr. McKenzie. Yes.
Mrs. Oswald. I think he had some money saved up. He always was saving money for a rainy day.
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. McKenzie. From what source did he save that money? Where did the money come from?
Mrs. Oswald. Only from his salary, from his wages.
Mr. McKenzie. When he was not working, did he have any other source of money, or did he have money?
Mrs. Oswald. When he wasn't working, he got some unemployment compensation from the place where he had been working.
Mr. McKenzie. Did he ever receive money to your knowledge from any other sources, other than from the Government or from his work?
Mrs. Oswald. The only sources I know of were the companies where he worked.
Mr. McKenzie. Who did your husband consider as good friends of his in Dallas, Tex.?
Mrs. Oswald. He was most friendly with George De Mohrenschildt. However, this is not a very nice thing to say for Mr. De Mohrenschildt's reputation. This has been—had a harmful effect on Mr. De Mohrenschildt's reputation as a result of the assassination, the fact that he was friendly with my husband.
Mr. McKenzie. Did your husband have any other good friends? For example, did he consider Michael Paine a good friend of his?
Mrs. Oswald. No; he didn't like Michael Paine. Therefore, I was surprised when they went to this meeting together. Perhaps they became friends after this. But it didn't seem so to me. He didn't show it to me.
Mr. McKenzie. Did your husband ever give you money or did you ever handle money in caring for the household, or did he take care of the money?
Mrs. Oswald. He never gave me any money. We would go shopping together, and he would make all the payments.
Mr. McKenzie. Were there not times when you didn't have enough money and food in the house, and friends had to help you?
Mrs. Oswald. It never happened that there was no food in the house and that friends had to help us. The only time when this might have been the case was immediately after our arrival in the United States, when I gave some Russian lessons to Mr. Gregory and his son, and he paid me for it. And once after we arrived Mr. George Bouhe saw that I was rather thin and took us to a grocery store and bought us a lot of stuff.
Mr. McKenzie. And did Mr. George Bouhe or Mrs. Ford have to take you to the hospital at one time or another?
Mrs. Oswald. No.
Mr. McKenzie. For June?
Mrs. Oswald. Not Mrs. Ford and not Mr. Bouhe.
Mr. McKenzie. Who was it?
Mrs. Oswald. Lydia Dymitruk took me to the hospital.
Mr. McKenzie. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.
The Chairman. Thank you, Mrs. Oswald, I think that will be all.
Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Chief Justice, before we close for the day I do have one request I would like to make of the Commission on the record.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. McKenzie. On behalf of Mrs. Oswald, I would like to have returned to her the original or original copies of all letters which she has previously furnished to the Commission, diaries, pictures, or any personal property of Lee Harvey Oswald that was presented to the Commission, including his personal effects and his diary, in particular his wedding ring, a watch, belt buckles, or any personal effects belonging to either Lee Harvey Oswald or Mrs. Oswald that have been presented as original exhibits to the Commission.
The Chairman. The Commission will consider that in connection with all the other things that you asked for in connection with her writings.
Mr. McKenzie. And may I respectfully ask this. In the Commission's consideration of our request, in connection with the original instruments or documents, or whatever it may be, do you at this time have any idea how long it would be before the Commission would decide?
The Chairman. Well, I think——
Mr. McKenzie. Mind you, I ask that as respectfully as I possibly can.
The Chairman. Well, I answer you as well as I can. We are driving to conclude the work of the Commission, and we believe that it will be completed in the next month—we hope so, anyway.
Mr. McKenzie. Of course she has no objection whatsoever for the Commission to have the documents which it now has as long as the originals are returned to her.
The Chairman. We will give consideration to that, because there are some things that are evidence here, that belonged to him, that perhaps will have to remain evidence. I can't make any analysis of all of those things at the present time. But, for instance, let us say, the gun.
Mr. McKenzie. We want that, too.
The Chairman. I say, we will give consideration to that. But I cannot give you any assurance of it at this time.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to have the record show at this point—we have no objection to what you propose and say we should do about supplying new copies of material, but I don't want the record to indicate we took their copies away from them, because we understand their manager and former counsel kept the copies or the originals, and have them. So that we are not just taking them for ourselves. I don't want the record to appear——
Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Rankin, I would not have the record reflect that, either. And I say that at all times that they were voluntarily given to the Commission. And the only thing I am asking for is a return of everything Mrs. Oswald has previously furnished the Commission, with the understanding that the Commission has the copies of them—she wants the originals back. In particular, there is a wedding ring that I would like to ask the Commission to return at this time.
The Chairman. Well, these things will have to be considered, all of them, by the whole Commission, Counsel. But we will give them consideration. We won't be turning anything back today, because we want the whole Commission to see what is essential.
Mr. McKenzie. Thank you, sir.
The Chairman. All right. I think that will be all. The Commission will adjourn.
(Whereupon, at 3:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
[Tuesday, June 16, 1964]
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT ALAN SURREY
The President's Commission met at 10:15 a.m., on June 16, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, and Representative Hale Boggs, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel.
(Members present: Chief Justice Warren, Senator Cooper, and Representative Boggs.)
The Chairman. Mr. Surrey, we have asked you to come here to testify concerning two things. The first is we want to ask you concerning the printing of a publication entitled, "Wanted for Treason" that appeared on the streets November 22, 1963, in Dallas. And then we propose to ask you also some questions about the home of General Walker, in connection with an attempt that was made on his life some time before the 22d of November. You are prepared to testify, are you?
Mr. Surrey. I talked to Mr. Jenner. I am prepared to testify as concerns the Walker episode. I do not wish to testify as concerns the wanted poster, or the "Wanted for Treason."
The Chairman. For what reason—what reason do you assign for not wanting to? It is not a question of whether a witness wants to testify here. He is subpenaed to testify, and he must testify unless he has a privilege.
Mr. Surrey. I believe that my answers would tend to incriminate me under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Very well. You are entitled to raise that question. And, if you do, that privilege will be respected. But we will ask you a question concerning it, and if you claim your privilege it will be respected. And then if you want to testify—are willing to testify about the other matters, you may do so.
Would you rise and raise your right hand and be sworn? You solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Surrey. I do.
Representative Boggs. Mr. Chairman, I would suppose that we would not be limited to one question. If he wants to plead the fifth amendment, of course that is his privilege. But I would hope that we could ask him several questions, and if he wants to plead he can plead on each question.
The Chairman. Well, on any phase of it that you wish to ask him a question, of course it is all right.
Mr. Jenner will conduct the examination.
Mr. Surrey. Is it my understanding that if I do invoke the fifth amendment to begin with, then I do not have the privilege of later on invoking it, is that correct?
The Chairman. Well, I believe it is a fact that on any phase of your testimony, if you testify in part about that phase, you can be required to testify fully concerning it. But if there is one phase of your testimony that you want to claim the privilege on, and are willing to testify as to other matters not connected with it, you can do so without waiving your privilege. Does that answer your question?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Very well. Mr. Jenner?
Mr. Jenner. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
Mr. Chief Justice, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 995 the original of the subpena served upon Mr. Surrey.
The Chairman. Yes. A subpena was served on you, was it, Mr. Surrey?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it was.
The Chairman. Very well, it may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 995 for identification, and received in evidence.)
Mr. Jenner. You are appearing in response to the subpena?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I am.
Mr. Jenner. Were you furnished with copies of the Senate joint resolution, or legislation which created—authorized the creation of the Commission?
Mr. Surrey. At a previous time; yes.
Mr. Jenner. And President Johnson's Executive order, and the rules and regulations of the Commission as to taking of testimony?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I was. It was hard to read them.
Mr. Jenner. Yes; they are a little bit difficult to read.
In order that you may exercise the rights that you have indicated to the Chief Justice, I will question you first about the pamphlet, after asking you the preliminary questions as to your name.
Mr. Surrey. Robert Alan Surrey.
Mr. Jenner. And what is your address?
Mr. Surrey. 3506 Lindenwood, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Jenner. How long have you resided there?
Mr. Surrey. Eight years.
Mr. Jenner. And what is your age?
Mr. Surrey. Thirty-eight.
Mr. Jenner. Where were you born?
Mr. Surrey. Oak Park, Ill.
Mr. Jenner. When did you move to Texas?
Mr. Surrey. First moved there in 1948, and then left for 2 years, from 1951 to 1953, and then moved back to Texas.
Mr. Jenner. You are a college graduate; are you not?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I am.
Mr. Jenner. What university or college?
Mr. Surrey. Northwestern.
Mr. Jenner. In Evanston, Ill?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. When did you receive your degree?
Mr. Surrey. 1948.
Mr. Jenner. You are married?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I am.
Mr. Jenner. Is Mrs. Surrey a native born American?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; she is a Dallasite.
Mr. Jenner. She is a Dallas girl?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. What is your business, occupation, or profession?
Mr. Surrey. I am a printing salesman.
Mr. Jenner. For what company?
Mr. Surrey. For Johnson Printing Co.
Mr. Jenner. Is that located at 2700 North Haskell, in Dallas?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is.
Mr. Jenner. How long have you been employed by Johnson Printing Co.?
Mr. Surrey. Seven years.
Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us in a general way what Johnson Printing Co. does? I appreciate the name in the title of the company indicates printing, but what kind?
Mr. Surrey. Commercial printing, advertising printing, house organs—just general commercial work.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have some military service?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I did.
Mr. Jenner. Would you state what it was?
Mr. Surrey. I was 4 years in the Navy, in World War II.
Mr. Jenner. Are you also the president of a book publishing company located in Dallas?
Mr. Surrey. The American Eagle Publishing Co?
Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I am.
Mr. Jenner. The only volume I have seen—there was a publication of reprints of newspaper stories.
Mr. Surrey. Called the Assassination Story, yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And your name appeared, I think, in that as the president of the company.
Mr. Surrey. A cover letter that was on the back cover.
Mr. Jenner. And——
Mr. Surrey. This was not our only publication. We have done many publications before that.
Representative Boggs. Do we have a copy of this publication?
Mr. Jenner. Of this particular one?
Mr. Surrey. Mr. Alger's office came to me and requested two copies for the Warren Commission, which I furnished to him.
Representative Boggs. Whose office?
Mr. Surrey. Congressman Bruce Alger's office.
Representative Boggs. Did we make such a request through Congressman Alger?
Mr. Jenner. I am not advised as to whether we did or not.
Mr. Rankin. I am quite sure we did not.
The Chairman. Did we receive any such copies?
Mr. Jenner. There is none among our exhibits in the exhibit room.
Mr. Surrey. His secretary called, and they came out to the house and got two copies of it.
Representative Boggs. How long ago was this?
Mr. Surrey. Oh, I would say 3 weeks.
Representative Boggs. When did you publish this book?
Mr. Surrey. I believe it was finally ready on January 1, right after January 1—January 1, 2, or 3, right in that area.
Representative Boggs. What does the book allege?
Mr. Surrey. We took the 10-day period following the assassination from both Dallas papers, the Dallas Morning News, and Dallas Times Herald, and just all the clippings pertaining to it were in chronological order, and just shot them cold, and published them.
Representative Boggs. Nothing else—just newspaper clippings?
Mr. Surrey. Just newspaper clippings.
Representative Boggs. No editorial comment of any kind?
Mr. Surrey. Outside of the letter on the back; no.
Representative Boggs. And what is the letter on the back?
Mr. Surrey. It said—this is just to the best of my knowledge, I don't recall exactly—"This is the local report of what happened when President Kennedy was assassinated. It is difficult to muzzle a local reporter in his own local paper. And we feel that some of the news that might not get out would be included in this book. We do not guarantee the accuracy of the information, but it will pose some questions, a few perhaps that the Warren Commission will not see fit to answer," I believe was in there.
Representative Boggs. Not see fit to what?
Mr. Surrey. To answer.
Representative Boggs. What was the implication of that?
Mr. Surrey. The implication being, as I see it, in Dallas—a local reporter—this is, for example. A local reporter from the Times Herald went down to the Western Union office several days after the assassination, and was told by the people in the Western Union office that, yes, they remembered Oswald, he had been in, he had gotten money orders, either the day before or just recently he had sent a wire to somebody, and they recalled his Swahili handwriting, and so forth. Well, I feel that surely Western Union knows who sent Oswald money, and so forth. Now, I don't know if this will come out of this Commission or not.
Representative Boggs. The implication was that this Commission would not investigate these allegations?
Mr. Surrey. No—perhaps.
Representative Boggs. Well, what did you mean by the word "muzzle"?
Mr. Surrey. Of the press?
Representative Boggs. You used "muzzle" in this letter—written. I don't have the letter before me. I would like to have it.
Mr. Surrey. I don't, either. I would like to know what the exact wording was on it, sir.
Representative Boggs. Did you write it?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Representative Boggs. And the implication was that this Commission would not seek out the entire truth of the incidences arising——
Mr. Surrey. Oh, no, sir; this was not the implication of the muzzling. This was not the implication.
Representative Boggs. What was the implication of the statement you made a moment ago, about questions that would not be asked by this Commission?
Mr. Surrey. News happens in an area, and after it has been up to the national news system, and then comes back through, and analyzed and so forth, I don't put full credit any longer.
Representative Boggs. Your theory is that in a matter as significant as the assassination of the President of the United States, that the news as reported outside of Dallas would be untruthful?
Representative Boggs. Is that the substance of the book?
Mr. Surrey. No. No; the substance of the book is strictly newspaper clippings.
Representative Boggs. Plus a letter.
Mr. Surrey. The letter is on the back cover of the book, just a cover letter.
Representative Boggs. Tell me more about what the letter says.
Mr. Surrey. I would much rather have the letter. I don't recall exactly what it does say, sir.
The Chairman. Did you write it yourself, or did somebody write it for you?
Mr. Surrey. I wrote it myself.
The Chairman. You don't remember what you wrote?
Mr. Surrey. No; not as per specific words, I do not.
Representative Boggs. Well, not specific words. The sense.
Mr. Surrey. You picked the specific word "muzzling" out of it.
Representative Boggs. You used that word; I didn't use it. "Muzzle" when you refer to a bipartisan Commission, established by the President of the United States, with a mandate to obtain the truth, is a rather serious word. I didn't use it—you used it.
Mr. Surrey. Based on some past experience that I have had—I was in Oxford, Miss., with General Walker. Based on past experience of the newspaper reports I heard coming out of national news media on that incident, which I saw with my own eyes, I could not believe any longer things which I read in the newspaper.
Now, the local paper there—and I was not privileged to read the local papers at the time—may have had some of the truth that went on there. But there certainly wasn't a good deal of it coming out in the national news media.
Senator Cooper. Did you select the clippings that were in the book?
Mr. Surrey. Pardon?
Senator Cooper. Did you select the newspaper clippings?
Mr. Surrey. No; I did not.
Senator Cooper. Who selected them?
Mr. Surrey. A couple named Osburn that lived in Dallas.
Senator Cooper. Who are they?
Mr. Surrey. Just some people that live in Dallas.
Senator Cooper. Do you know their names?
Mr. Surrey. Just Osburn.
Senator Cooper. Do you know their address?
Mr. Surrey. No; I do not.
The Chairman. How did you happen to be associated with them?
Mr Surrey. Mrs. Osburn works at Walker's offce.
The Chairman. You are speaking of General Walker?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Representative Boggs. Well, now, go ahead. I would request, Mr. Chairman, that this book and this letter be made a part of the record of this Commission.
The Chairman. Will you supply us with a copy of the book?
Mr. Surrey. If I have one, sir. They are out of print. And I don't know——
The Chairman. Are they all sold?
Mr. Surrey. Well, we were going into reprint, right at that particular time the attorney from the Times Herald called and put a cease and desist on them.
The Chairman. How many copies did you have printed?
Mr. Surrey. 3,000.
The Chairman. Were they sold?
Mr. Surrey. Some of them were; yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many were sold?
Mr. Surrey. I would say about 900 to a thousand.
The Chairman. What became of the rest of them?
Mr. Surrey. They were sent to our presubscriber list, and given away.
The Chairman. Is this company that published them a corporation?
Mr. Surrey. No; it is a partnership.
The Chairman. Who are the partners?
Mr. Surrey. Myself and General Walker.
The Chairman. And General Walker?
Representative Boggs. Was this pamphlet that you printed included in the book?
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. That is——
Representative Boggs. "Wanted for Treason"?
Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit No. 996.
Mr. Surrey. No.
Representative Boggs. That was not included?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Representative Boggs. You didn't make that a part of the record of the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. Surrey. I did not make it a part of the record?
Representative Boggs. In this record that you published.
Mr. Surrey. I had nothing to do with making it a part of the record.
Representative Boggs. You published the book, didn't you?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; but these were newspaper reprints.
Representative Boggs. You published this, too, didn't you?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
Representative Boggs. You didn't publish it?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
The Chairman. You are speaking of the book now?
Representative Boggs. I am talking about your printing company.
Mr. Surrey. You are talking about my printing company?
Representative Boggs. The company you work for.
Mr. Surrey. Yes, Johnson Printing Co.
Representative Boggs. Didn't you publish this?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Representative Boggs. Who printed it?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Representative Boggs. Mr. Chairman, I, of course, fully appreciate the right of the witness to plead the fifth amendment. But I would simply like to make the observation that this is the only witness out of hundreds who has pled the fifth amendment, and that obviously if each witness had done this, then the charge of being muzzled would be something that we would really be confronted with. I would simply like to make that observation.
The Chairman. You may proceed, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. Jenner. Thank you. Does the American Eagle Publishing Co. have a bookstore subsidiary or outlet?
Mr. Surrey. No; we do not.
Mr. Jenner. What is the American Eagle Book Store?
Mr. Surrey. There is no American Eagle Book Store.
The Chairman. Do you have a headquarters?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have a telephone?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
The Chairman. Are you listed with the local authorities under a fictitious or assumed name?
Mr. Surrey. Yes—doing business as?
The Chairman. Doing business as, yes.
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
The Chairman. And the names given are yourself and General Walker?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Where is that filed—with your county clerk?
Mr. Surrey. County clerk in Dallas.
Mr. Jenner. We have talked about General Walker. That is General Edwin A. Walker, now resigned?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And do you know a Robert G. Krause?
Mr. Surrey. I refuse to answer on the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. Was he not formerly employed by Johnson Printing Co.?
Mr. Surrey. I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Representative Boggs. Excuse me. Mr. Chief Justice—we will have testimony from Mr. Krause, I presume?
Mr. Jenner. Yes; do you know of a company, a printing company, Lettercraft Printing Co.?
Mr. Surrey. I refuse to answer—same reason.
The Chairman. For the reason it would tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you not prepare the copy for Commission Exhibit No. 996?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the same reason; that it would tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. And, in turn, turn that copy over to Robert G. Krause, of the Lettercraft Printing Co. for reproduction?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer, same reason.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 996 for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Exhibiting again Exhibit No.—Commission Exhibit No. 996 to you, you will notice a front and profile view of President Kennedy. Did you bring to Robert Krause photographs of which this is a reproduction?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. In fact, did you not bring to Robert G. Krause two slick paper magazine photographs of President Kennedy and request and engage him to make photographs of the slick paper magazine photos for the purpose of reproduction?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer; same reason.
Mr. Jenner. And did you not pay Robert G. Krause and his wife for printing some 5,000 to 10,000 of these handbills, of which Commission Exhibit No. 996 is a copy?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. Did you thereafter—did you not in fact thereafter, yourself—well, I will ask you first—yourself, distribute duplicates of Exhibit No. 996 in and about the streets of Dallas, Tex., on November 22 and days preceding?
Mr. Surrey. Point of order. Can I ask a question? If I now answer one or two in through here, does this——
The Chairman. Well, this is connected with the entire situation—the publication, the distribution of it is one and the same subject matter, I would think.
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, I might bring this out. Having received the rules and regulations of the Commission with respect to the taking of testimony, you are aware of the fact that you are entitled to have counsel present?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I am, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you appear without counsel?
Mr. Surrey. I cannot afford to bring counsel.
Mr. Jenner. But you do appear without counsel?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I do.
Representative Boggs. I think, Mr. Chief Justice, the record should show if this man requested counsel he would be entitled to counsel, would he not?
Mr. Jenner. He certainly would. And he has not requested it.
Representative Boggs. I just want the record to show that.
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator Cooper. Did you request counsel?
Mr. Surrey. From whom, sir?
Senator Cooper. Did you request the Commission to appoint counsel for you?
Mr. Surrey. No; I did not. I did not know this was available.
Representative Boggs. I might say it is still available.
Mr. Surrey. Would this be a court-appointed?
The Chairman. Beg pardon?
Mr. Surrey. Would this be a court-appointed attorney?
The Chairman. No; it would be an attorney appointed by the Commission.
Mr. Surrey. Thank you.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Jenner.
Representative Boggs. You prefer not to have an attorney appointed by the Commission?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Representative Boggs. We might let the record show at this point, also, that the American Bar Association has been closely associated with the Commission.
Mr. Surrey. What does that mean? I mean what is the purpose of that remark?
Representative Boggs. To show that the attorneys appointed are completely objective.
Mr. Surrey. I did not imply they were not, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you know Mrs. Clifford Mercer, Dorothy Mercer?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. Do you know Mr. Clifford Mercer?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer; same reason.
Mr. Jenner. Do you know of a photoengraving company in Dallas, 2027 Young Street, Monks Bros.?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. Do you know J. T. Monk or J. T. Monk, Jr.?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer, same grounds.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have one of the workmen, printing workmen, at Johnson Printing Co., set type for the copy which appears on Commission Exhibit No. 996?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. And thereafter, after that type was set, have photographs made of that type?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer; same reason.
Mr. Jenner. Do you know Mr. Bernard Weissman?
Mr. Surrey. No. We are in another field now, I gather.
Mr. Jenner. Well, I don't want to represent to you that it is.
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. Have you had any business relations with a man by the name of Bernard Weissman?
Mr. Surrey. If this is in your opinion still part of the other—concerning these leaflets, then I will plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, with the policy of the Commission to be fully fair to all witnesses, may I respond to the witness and say to him there is that possibility.
The Chairman. There is that possibility; yes—that is a sufficient statement.
Mr. Jenner. And being that possibility, do you wish to decline to answer the question on the ground an answer may tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, unless you or other members of the Commission have some questions on this line of examination, I will not ask further questions with respect to it—unless you gentlemen desire to ask questions.
The Chairman. Any further questions, Congressman Boggs?
Representative Boggs. Was anyone associated with you in the publication of this leaflet?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Did General Walker have anything to do with it?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me—but, no.
The Chairman. What? Now you have opened that up, sir—if you say—was your answer no, or is your answer that you claim the privilege?
Mr. Surrey. My answer is that I claim the privilege, sir.
The Chairman. That is different.
Senator Cooper. May I just ask one question? To return for a moment to this book that you printed with newspaper clippings—what was your purpose in printing it?
Mr. Surrey. As a memento, primarily.
Senator Cooper. You had no other purpose?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
Senator Cooper. Didn't you really have the purpose of impugning the work of this Commission and giving the implication that it would not go fully and thoroughly into all questions?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir. This was not the intent; no.
Representative Boggs. What was the allegation in the cease and desist order which was issued against you by the Dallas newspaper?
Mr. Surrey. That this would be in competition to a book which they were going to promote—I believe the AP. At the time—the Osburns had this, and they were gathering it together, and they brought it over one day, and it looked like a real good idea. Other people had stacks and stacks of papers. And this was a compilation of clippings of the paper. And everybody thought it was such a good idea that we thought we would publish it. So I got it into brownline form, which is a proof, a preliminary proof—silver prints, you may call them in Washington.
The Chairman. For how much did you sell these books a copy?
Mr. Surrey. We gave them free to our presubscriber list.
The Chairman. I didn't ask you that.
Mr. Surrey. They were $5 per copy.
The Chairman. And how many did you say you sold?
Mr. Surrey. About 900 to a 1,000.
The Chairman. What happened to the money?
Mr. Surrey. It was put into the American Eagle Publishing Co. account.
The Chairman. Do you have a regular bookkeeping system?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And those figures would be available, showing how many you had sold, would they?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In your books?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Representative Boggs. Is the American Eagle Publishing Co. an incorporated company?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Representative Boggs. What is it?
Mr. Surrey. Partnership, sir.
Representative Boggs. Who are the partners?
Mr. Surrey. Myself and General Walker.
Representative Boggs. And this presubscription list, how many people on that?
Mr. Surrey. I would say 700, 800.
Representative Boggs. You publish a newspaper?
Mr. Surrey. No; we don't.
Representative Boggs. What do you publish besides this book?
Mr. Surrey. Pamphlets—pamphlets.
Mr. Jenner. You receive part of your income from the American Eagle Publishing Co.?
Mr. Surrey. No; I do not.
Mr. Jenner. You serve as president, but you receive no compensation for that?
Mr. Surrey. That is true.
Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us, please, the address of the American Eagle Publishing Co.?
Mr. Surrey. P.O. Box 750, Dallas 21.
Mr. Jenner. It has no physical office itself—just the post office address?
Mr. Surrey. That is correct. That mail comes to my desk at Johnson Printing Co. That is the same post office box as Johnson Printing Co.
Mr. Jenner. I see. And where do you keep—where does American Publishing Co. warehouse or keep or store its pamphlets and books?
Mr. Surrey. 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard, Mr. Walker's residence. I have a room.
Mr. Jenner. That is General Walker's residence?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
The Chairman. That is General Walker's residence?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is.
The Chairman. Who owns the Johnson Printing Co.?
Mr. Surrey. It is—the stock is split, four or five different people.
The Chairman. A corporation?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is.
The Chairman. Who are they?
Mr. Surrey. Mr. Bryan Snyder is chairman of the board. Mr. Emil Borak is president, and Mr. Lewis C. Owens is treasurer. I believe some stock is held by Oliver Snyder, and I have some stock. And Mr. Fallon Snyder.
The Chairman. It is a commercial company?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is.
The Chairman. Is General Walker connected with it?
Mr. Surrey. No; he is not.
The Chairman. Or with the other people, as far as you know?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Is Mr. Borak the general manager of the plant itself?
Mr. Surrey. No; he is president of the company.
Mr. Jenner. I see. Who is the general manager of the plant?
Mr. Surrey. Mr. Owens.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Owens.
Did you acquaint Mr. Owens or Mr. Borak, either of them, with the fact that you had Commission Exhibit No. 996 printed at the Lettercraft Printing Co.?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. Did you make either or both of them aware of the fact that some of the copy or all of the copy with respect to Commission Exhibit No. 996 was prepared by way of printing at Johnson Printing Co.?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. How many printers do you have at Johnson Printing Co.?
Mr. Surrey. How many employees?
Mr. Jenner. No—that operate linotypes or operate these machines that produce these slugs—what is the name of that kind of machine?
Mr. Surrey. Well, it would be a monotype or a linotype or a Ludlow.
Mr. Jenner. Are these lines on Exhibit No. 996 Ludlow productions?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. Who are the Ludlow machine operators at Johnson Printing Co.?
Mr. Surrey. Oh, I would say there are probably 10 or 15 that operate the Ludlow machine.
Mr. Jenner. Does your recollection serve you to name those who operated the Ludlow machines any time during the first 22 days of November 1963? If so, name them.
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. Are you able to name any of the linotype operators who were employed during the first 22 days of November 1963?
Mr. Surrey. Who were employed at Johnson Printing Co.?
Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Surrey. Well, I gather this has nothing to do with this. So may I answer?
Mr. Jenner. I don't want to lead you to believe it doesn't, sir.
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the ground it may incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. From whom was the paper purchased on which appears the imprinting on the exhibit identified here as Commission Exhibit No. 996.
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Jenner. Did you see another reproduction of Commission Exhibit No. 996 at any time from the 1st of November 1963 to and including the 22d of November 1963?
Mr. Surrey. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, I will now depart from this particular phase, if that is permissible.
The Chairman. Very well.
Mr. Jenner. I am now going to turn, Mr. Surrey, to the attempt on the life of General Walker.
First I would like to have you examine a series of photographs which purport to be photographs of the area of the Walker house.
Mr. Chief Justice, may I approach the witness for this purpose?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I show the witness Commission Exhibit No. 2, Item No. 7, and subdivision item No. P-2. Do you see that, sir?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I do.
Mr. Jenner. Examining the subitem, P-2, is the area depicted in that photograph familiar to you?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is. It is the alley in behind Mr. Walker's residence, looking west.
Mr. Jenner. Looking west?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Would you be able to help us as to an estimate, perhaps from the nature of the foliage, and your familiarity with the Walker premises, as to when that photograph might have been taken, as to season of the year?
Mr. Surrey. I would say late fall.
Mr. Jenner. Could it have been the early spring, mid-March, for example? 1st of March, along in there?
Mr. Surrey. It could have been; yes.
Mr. Jenner. Either in the fall, when there is a deleafing or lack of foliage on trees, or the early spring?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I show you what purports to be the same thing, also marked—it is a larger photograph—Commission Exhibit No. 2, Item No. 7. Directing your attention to the subdivision P-2 you have just testified about, are they photographs——
Mr. Surrey. Basically the same thing. It looks like this one was taken a little closer to the ground.
Mr. Jenner. When you say this one, you mean the larger of the two?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. On Commission Exhibit No. 3, Item 14, subitem P-1, directing your attention to that, you recognize that?
Mr. Surrey. That is a picture of the back of the residence of 4011 Turtle Creek.
Mr. Jenner. General Edwin Walker's home?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I perhaps should have asked you this: You are familiar with the area surrounding General Walker's home?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, I am.
Mr. Jenner. You have been there a good many times, have you?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, I have.
Mr. Jenner. On all sides of the home?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And are you familiar with the inside of the home?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I am.
Mr. Jenner. And have you worked there from time to time over the years?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. How long have you been associated with General Walker?
Mr. Surrey. Since the beginning of his campaign, when that was—I think the spring—about 3 years now.
The Chairman. What campaign is that?
Mr. Surrey. When he ran for Governor of Texas.
Mr. Jenner. That initiated your association with him?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And what are your duties in your association with General Walker?
Mr. Surrey. I am just a volunteer helper, whatever he needed, volunteer help in doing, I would help.
Mr. Jenner. Are you compensated?
Mr. Surrey. No; I am not.
Mr. Jenner. You have never received any compensation?
Mr. Surrey. No; I haven't.
Mr. Jenner. You have never received any compensation from the publishing company we have identified that published that book?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you handle any funds for General Walker?
Mr. Surrey. Of General Walker's fund?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
The Chairman. Or any funds——
Mr. Surrey. Except what——
The Chairman. Or any funds that come to General Walker?
Mr. Surrey. No; only that comes to American Eagle Co., which is in fact, I guess, technically his funds.
The Chairman. Well, what funds do come to American Eagle Co.?
Mr. Surrey. Funds for purchasing of materials, and some donations. That is it.
The Chairman. Outside of donations, how do you get your funds for publishing?
Mr. Surrey. From the sale of materials.
The Chairman. And the rest of it is all donations?
Mr. Surrey. Donations are extremely small, as a matter of fact, yes. We operate on the sale of materials.
The Chairman. How much in the aggregate of donations have you had?
Mr. Surrey. To American Eagle Publishing Co.?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Surrey. I would say a hundred dollars.
The Chairman. A hundred dollars?
Mr. Surrey. Over 2 years or 2½ years.
The Chairman. Where did you get the money to publish your book?
Mr. Surrey. At the beginning of American Eagle Publishing Co., we started with a backlog of books which had been used in the campaign. This was Mr. Walker's contribution to the American Eagle Publishing Co.
The Chairman. Did General Walker sell his campaign books?
Mr. Surrey. I don't know if he did or not.
The Chairman. Well, you don't pay publishing funds with books, do you?
Mr. Surrey. From the sale of the books which were turned over to American Eagle Co. at its inception, from the sale of those books, we have accumulated funds to go on with others.
The Chairman. At its inception, where did you get the money to publish?
Mr. Surrey. I don't understand your question, sir.
The Chairman. Well——
Mr. Surrey. At its inception we didn't have any money.
The Chairman. When you publish books, you have to have some capital of some kind.
Mr. Surrey. The capital was raised from the sale of a book called "Walker Speaks Unmuzzled" which sells for 35 cents. We started with that.
The Chairman. You published that first?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
The Chairman. Who published that?
Mr. Surrey. I believe General Walker did.
The Chairman. And how much money came from the sale of those books?
Mr. Surrey. I do not know offhand, sir.
The Chairman. Approximately.
Mr. Surrey. We are still selling them.
The Chairman. Beg pardon?
Mr. Surrey. We are still selling them.
The Chairman. But you handle the funds, don't you, for the company?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; but I don't know specific items.
The Chairman. Well, I am not asking you for specific items. But I would like to know approximately how much money.
Let me put it this way: How much money have you handled for that company in the last—since it has been established?
Mr. Surrey. Oh, as a rough estimate, $10,000 to $15,000.
The Chairman. And only a hundred dollars of that was contributions from outsiders?
Mr. Surrey. I would say that would be it.
The Chairman. And was there any of that $10,000 or $15,000 that came from any individual other than from people who purchased the hooks?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; at one time the General put some more money into the company.
The Chairman. How much money did he put into it?
Mr. Surrey. I believe a thousand dollars.
The Chairman. That is all?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
The Chairman. Anybody else put any money into it?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
The Chairman. Very well.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, may I revert to the other subject matter? I have an additional question I would like to ask. And I warn the witness in advance I am returning to the pamphlet.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Your questions have stimulated me to ask another question.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Were any of the funds that reached Eagle Publishing Co. by way of contributions or proceeds of sale of materials employed or used to pay for the leaflet, Commission Exhibit No. 996?
Mr. Surrey. Now, I understand that if I answer that question, it opens up the whole thing again. So I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, I have asked our Chief Counsel, Mr. Rankin, to have a search of our files made and our telephone calls to see if we have received anything from Congressman Alger concerning this book. And Mr. Rankin, will you report to us what your finding is, please?
Mr. Rankin. I had a search made of our files, and any incoming calls from the Congressman to see if we had received any such material, and such a search showed that we had not received any such material. I then called Congressman Alger's office to ask there if there had been any communication from them, and was informed that they had not sent anything to us, but that one of the booklets had been given away by Congressman Alger, and they had one left, and I have sent for that one to have for our records.
Representative Boggs. I would like to see it when it gets here. You expect it pretty soon?
Mr. Rankin. I sent him on the run.
Representative Boggs. Good.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Surrey, I will return to the General Walker incident now.
I would like you particularly to examine the next photograph, which appears in Commission Exhibit No. 4, Item 6, as subletter P-5.
This depicts, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen, a railroad track—in the far distance a tall building. Is that area at all familiar to you?
That is undoubtedly the MKT line, or some spur line.
You are familiar with the MKT line, are you not?
Mr. Surrey. This I do not recognize the area.
Mr. Jenner. I will ask you this. Is there a railroad near General Walker's home?
Mr. Surrey. Facing out of the house, facing Turtle Creek, across the creek, and then another half block or so, there is a railroad.
Mr. Jenner. Within a half a block?
Mr. Surrey. Well, it would be a full city block to the railroad. Perhaps even more. I have never been in that area, as a matter of fact.
Mr. Jenner. Having that in mind, I show you a photograph, aerial view photograph, which we have marked Commission Exhibit No. 998.
Mr. Chief Justice, that is a copy of the exhibit.
That purports to be an aerial photograph taken of the vicinity of General Walker's residence. And you will notice there is an encircled building and the designation "A."
First, do you recognize that general area?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 998 for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. And does the encirclment of the home there appear to be General Walker's home?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir; it does. I don't see a house that should be in the corner.
Mr. Jenner. You say corner—you mean——
Mr. Surrey. Right there.
Mr. Jenner. To the left?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; there is a house there between Walker's residence and the next house, and the street here, which is Avondale, I believe.
Mr. Jenner. And you are talking about the street here—you are pointing to a street that runs obliquely from left to right towards the upper corner of the picture?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. To the left of the house encircled as General Walker's house?
Mr. Surrey. Yes. Oh, I see, I am sorry. It is much further back from the street. That is the house.
Mr. Jenner. Now, the house you say that is next is the one immediately to the left of the one encircled?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I was looking in this area for the houses. That is correct. That is General Walker's residence, as depicted in the picture.
Mr. Jenner. And the house to the left is the house you thought at first was not shown, but in fact it is shown?
Mr. Surrey. It is.
Mr. Jenner. And who is the owner of that home?
Mr. Surrey. I do not know. A doctor.
Mr. Jenner. A lady doctor?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is a woman, runs the household.
Mr. Jenner. Dr. Ruth Jackson?
Mr. Surrey. It sounds familiar, but I do not know.
Mr. Jenner. Does she have a dog that is sometimes obstreperous, does a lot of barking?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; she does.
Mr. Jenner. You are quite familiar with that fact, are you?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. Jenner. How and why did you become familiar with that fact?
Mr. Surrey. Anyone approaching the house, generally her house or General Walker's house, would be barked at, in the middle of the night noises.
Mr. Jenner. And you have approached General Walker's house, I assume, at night, have you?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. If the dog is out in Dr. Jackson's yard, the dog is alerted and barks?
Mr. Surrey. Not so much any more. Evidently he knows who I am now.
Mr. Jenner. I see. But before the dog became familiar with you, he did bark?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What kind of a dog is it, by the way?
Mr. Surrey. A small Collie, I guess—shaggy, brownish dog.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether or not at or about the time of the attempt on General Walker's life that dog became or was ill.
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it was. This was reported to me. I do not know of firsthand knowledge.
Mr. Jenner. I would prefer not to have your hearsay. You have no knowledge firsthand, however?
Mr. Surrey. No; I do not.
Mr. Jenner. Unless, Mr. Chairman, you desire to pursue the hearsay——
The Chairman. No, no.
Mr. Jenner. Continuing with Exhibit No. 998, and looking at the footnotes, would you tell us whether that footnoting is accurate—A through G?
Mr. Surrey. I am not familiar with Gilbert Street.
Mr. Jenner. Which is designated as G?
Mr. Surrey. It very well could be Gilbert Street. I just don't know the names of those streets.
Yes; to the best of my knowledge that is accurate.
Mr. Jenner. There is a tall building to the left, rather nice-looking. Are you familiar with that building?
Mr. Surrey. No; there are several new ones going right up in that area. I think that is the Spa, or something.
Mr. Jenner. I am referring, Mr. Chief Justice, to the tall building with a lattice design immediately to the right of the letter "A".
What did you think that was?
Mr. Surrey. A new development in there called 21 Turtle Creek, the Spa, or something. I only know it from newspaper ads.
Mr. Jenner. I see. Was that building in that condition or being erected in the spring of 1963?
Mr. Surrey. If that is the building I think of, it has just been finished a month or so now.
Mr. Jenner. How long has it been under construction?
Mr. Surrey. Possibly a year, a year and a half.
Mr. Jenner. Does that photograph fairly depict and represent the area it shows as that area existed in the spring of 1963?
Mr. Surrey. No; you are missing a Jesuit high school which was here.
Mr. Jenner. When you say was here, I have to identify the spot to which you are pointing. And the spot to which you are pointing is the open field area that is shown immediately to the right of the building we have identified, near which the letter "A" appears?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that.
Mr. Surrey. That was the old Jesuit high school, which has been torn down just recently. I believe just recently finished tearing it down.
Mr. Jenner. All right. I will identify these other photographs rather quickly. In each instance, will you look at the photograph and tell us whether the sub-lettering is correct.
I have now handed the witness Commission Exhibit No. 999.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 999 for identification.)
Mr. Surrey. I believe that to be generally correct. This area of Walker's residence here is difficult——
Mr. Jenner. It is some distance away, and the area of Walker's residence to which the witness referred is a circle to which the letter "A" is affixed?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Otherwise, this is an accurate representation of that area and as it existed in the spring of 1963?
Mr. Surrey. Again, the high school is—I don't believe that that Jesuit high school was to the ground as it shows here, in the spring of 1963.
Mr. Jenner. I now call your attention to the building that appears immediately to the right of the circle.
Mr. Surrey. That is, I believe, the same building that shows in the previous exhibit.
Mr. Jenner. Thank you. That is just exactly what I was going to ask you. All right. Now, would you look at Commission Exhibit No. 1000.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 1000 and 1002 for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Are those footnotings correct?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir; I believe they are.
Mr. Jenner. Would you look at 1002.
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir; I believe they are substantially correct.
Mr. Jenner. All right. For the purposes of the record, Mr. Reporter, Commission Exhibit No. 1000 also has a sticker on it marked Commission Exhibit No. 1001. Would you please note in the record we will not be using Commission Exhibit 1001. It got on there by mistake. Now, you just covered Exhibit No. 1002. Now, Exhibits Nos. 1003, 1004.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits No. 1003 and 1004, respectively, for identification.)
Mr. Surrey. Yes; that street previously mentioned was Avondale. That is the street immediately to the west.
Mr. Jenner. And it appears on Commission Exhibit No. 1003?
Mr. Surrey. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. Have you yet examined Commission Exhibit No. 1004?
Mr. Surrey. No; I have not.
Mr. Jenner. The witness is now examining Commission Exhibit No. 1004.
The Chairman. Very well.
Mr. Surrey. I believe that is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. I will ask you a general question to be sure we have covered all of these.
Calling your attention to Commission Exhibits Nos. 998, 999, 1000, 1002, 1003, and 1004, which are aerial photographs—are they aerial photographs of the vicinity of General Walker's house?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; they are.
Mr. Jenner. And do they, except for the high school matter which you have pointed out to us—do they represent fairly the area as it was in the spring of 1963?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, I would say that is generally correct.
Mr. Jenner. All right, sir. Now, the Commission is interested, Mr. Surrey, in whether there are some open areas or fields near General Walker's house in which an object such as a firearm or rifle could be buried.
Mr. Surrey. Directly across from in front of the house—of course, Turtle Creek Boulevard, and across from Turtle Creek Boulevard is Turtle Creek itself, with a lawn area coming up to the street of 20 to 30 yards in some places.
Mr. Jenner. Using the blank sheet of paper I hand you, would you just give us a diagram—a rough diagram of the area of General Walker's house, so that I can locate the field about which you now speak?
Mr. Surrey. It is not actually a field.
Mr. Jenner. And we will mark that as Commission Exhibit No. 1005.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1005 for identification.)
Mr. Surrey. This is Turtle Creek. [Witness draws.]
Mr. Jenner. Now, is Turtle Creek a street?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is a street, a boulevard.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Surrey. Mr. Walker's residence is here. [Witness draws.]
Mr. Jenner. Is the top of this sheet north or south, west or east? When I say that I refer to Commission Exhibit No. 1005.
Mr. Surrey. This is north.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Put an arrow and the letter "N" at that point. Now, would you put south on the other side, and then east and west where they belong?
Mr. Surrey. These are not exact. They are several points off. But generally.
Mr. Jenner. You are just making a rough sketch, sir, for the purpose of helping with your testimony. You have now drawn in General Walker's house. Would you put in the word "Walker"?
Now, having done that, you have now described an area—told us of an area where a firearm—a field where a firearm might be buried that is in the vicinity of General Walker's home. Would you indicate where that would be?
Mr. Surrey. Here is Turtle Creek. [Witness draws.]
Mr. Jenner. You are now drawing a wavy line. Would you write in there "Turtle Creek." And that is a stream, is it?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Does it always have water in it?
Mr. Surrey. To my knowledge; yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Surrey. Now, this area across Turtle Creek Boulevard.
Mr. Jenner. That is to the south of General Walker's house.
Mr. Surrey. And going down to the creek is a grassy, leafed, brushed, tree area.
Mr. Jenner. It is not an open field?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Mr. Jenner. But it is an area in which a firearm could be buried?
Mr. Surrey. It is down near the creek—there are rocks.
(At this point, Representative Boggs withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Surrey. In addition to that—here is Avondale, here is the doctor's residence. [Witness draws.]
Mr. Jenner. This is Dr. Jackson's residence you have now drawn?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Would you please——
Mr. Surrey. And this entire block here is——
Mr. Jenner. You are pointing to the west?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Along Turtle Creek Drive?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Would you put the word "drive" there.
Mr. Surrey. It is boulevard.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Would you repeat your testimony in that connection?
Mr. Surrey. Another block of residences——
Mr. Jenner. To the west?
Mr. Surrey. To the west. And then you come to that field where the new building is going up and the Jesuit high school was.
Mr. Jenner. And that is the new building you identified in one of the earlier exhibits, and the high school has now been torn down?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. All right. And there was—in the spring of 1963, was there a field there?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; there still is.
Mr. Jenner. Where a firearm could have been buried?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. We understand there is a church, a church house, near the Walker home. Am I correct?
Mr. Surrey. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. Would you locate it, please?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; directly to the east. [Witness draws.] Their driveway comes up between the Walker house, into their parking lot [witness draws], and here is that back alley you showed me a picture of earlier. [Witness draws.]
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. For the purpose of the record, the witness has now drawn in what looks like a parking lot area, is that correct?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Is that the church parking lot?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is.
Mr. Jenner. And where is the church house itself located?
Mr. Surrey. This entire area. I don't know about the shape of it. But it is in this area.
Mr. Jenner. Write the word "church" in there. [Witness does so.] What church is that?
Mr. Surrey. It is a Mormon church.
Mr. Jenner. And about how far distant from the Walker house is the Mormon church?
Mr. Surrey. It is on the next lot—I would say 400 feet, maybe.
Mr. Jenner. What is there intervening, if anything, between the Mormon church buildings and General Walker's home?
Mr. Surrey. In the way of a fence, you mean?
Mr. Jenner. Well, first; are there any buildings?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Mr. Jenner. Or any sheds or anything of that character?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Mr. Jenner. Are there any trees?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; there are trees.
Mr. Jenner. Is it heavily or lightly wooded?
Mr. Surrey. Lightly.
Mr. Jenner. There is a fence?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. A wooden fence?
Mr. Surrey. A wooden fence—about 5-foot tall.
Mr. Jenner. I see. Is that a lattice fence or a solid fence?
Mr. Surrey. Along this side here it is a solid fence.
Mr. Jenner. When you say this side, you are pointing to the driveway leading to Turtle Creek Boulevard?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; the fence actually is here. [Witness draws.]
Mr. Jenner. You have now put—he is indicating the fence. And that is a lattice or slat fence?
Mr. Surrey. That is a solid fence there. And then it is latticed along the alley.
Mr. Jenner. Which way does the front of General Walker's house face—on Turtle Creek Boulevard?
Mr. Surrey. On Turtle Creek.
Mr. Jenner. All right. That will be helpful to us. We will just set that exhibit aside for the moment.
Some of these photographs I am now about to show you—I now show you a photograph, Commission Exhibit No. 5, Item No. 369. Do you recognize that?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, I do. It is a photo of the back of General Walker's home.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, returning to your plat, Commission Exhibit No. 1005, is that the side of General Walker's house that faces the church?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Mr. Jenner. It is the side—is it the side that faces Dr. Jackson's home?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Mr. Jenner. Is it the side that faces onto or toward Turtle Creek Boulevard?
Mr. Surrey. No; it is not.
Mr. Jenner. Is it the side that faces toward the alley which you have drawn on Commission Exhibit No. 1005?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is.
Mr. Jenner. Fine. Now, you will notice in that photograph an automobile, but no license plate, and there appears to be obliterated an area in which a license plate might have appeared on that car.
Now, first, you do see the automobile?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I have seen this photo before. Mr. Barrett of the FBI in Dallas brought this to my attention.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize the automobile?
Mr. Surrey. Not positively, but I think it belongs to Mr. Charles Klihr.
Mr. Jenner. And who is Mr. Charles Klihr?
Mr. Surrey. He is a volunteer worker of Mr. Walker's, also.
Mr. Jenner. Are you sufficiently familiar with Mr. Charles Klihr's automobile—you already identified it——
Mr. Surrey. No; I did not identify it. I cannot do that, sir.
Mr. Jenner. To the best of your ability is all I am suggesting, sir.
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a license plate or license plate fixture in or about the area in which the black spot on the automobile appears?
Mr. Surrey. I have seen Mr. Klihr's automobile many times. I have not seen it without a license plate, which I think I would note if it were not there.
Mr. Jenner. Yes; but located at or about in the vicinity of that black spot?
Mr. Surrey. I would say to the best of my knowledge; yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Thank you, sir. Were you at General Walker's home the evening of the attempted assassination, or attempt on his life?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, I was. After the shot. I was not there at the time.
Mr. Jenner. How soon after the shot were you there?
Mr. Surrey. About 15 minutes.
Mr. Jenner. How did you become aware that there had been an attempt on his life?
Mr. Surrey. He called me on the telephone at my home.
Mr. Jenner. And how far did you live from General Walker's home?
Mr. Surrey. About 2 miles.
Mr. Jenner. And you immediately drove over there?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. What kind of an automobile do you own and drive?
Mr. Surrey. A 1961 Ford convertible.
Mr. Jenner. And did you arrive at his home in that convertible?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, I did.
Mr. Jenner. What time of the day or night was this?
Mr. Surrey. This was about 9 to 9:30 in the evening.
Mr. Jenner. What day? I mean date.
Mr. Surrey. April 10th.
Mr. Jenner. What year?
Mr. Surrey. 1963.
Excuse me. This is 1964, isn't it.
Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Surrey. So this would——
Mr. Jenner. Was this a year ago?
Mr. Surrey. It would be 1963, yes.
Mr. Jenner. I have marked a series of photographs as Commission Exhibits Nos. 1006 through 1012.
(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 1006 through 1012, respectively, for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. These purport to be photographs of portions and places in—both inside and outside General Walker's home relating to the incident in question.
Would you be good enough to take them seriatim, identify them by exhibit number——
Mr. Surrey. Take them how?
Mr. Jenner. Seriatim, in series—commencing with Commission Exhibit 1006. And tell us if you are familiar with the photograph and whether it depicts a portion of General Walker's home, and, if so, what portion.
Mr. Surrey. I don't know what this is here in the back yard, but outside of that it looks like a picture of the window facing towards the alley which the shot came through.
Mr. Jenner. From the direction the shot came?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And the marring on the molding of the window is the point of the screen and the window through which the bullet came?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Did you examine that that evening?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I did.
Mr. Jenner. Did you see the breach in the casement which is depicted on Commission Exhibit No. 1006?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I did. What is this in the back? Do you happen to know?
Mr. Jenner. No; I don't. But I think I can bring it out. These photographs, I think, were taken fairly recently.
Have you been at General Walker's house in the last couple of weeks?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I have.
Mr. Jenner. And have you had occasion to notice whether or not any repair whatsoever has been made or was made with respect to the marring of the molding?
Mr. Surrey. I don't believe it has.
That looks like a stack of cardboard back there. I am not familiar with it.
Mr. Jenner. Yes; it looks like heavy asbestos, or some wood out in the yard.
Mr. Surrey. I am not familiar with that.
Mr. Jenner. Now, look at Exhibit No. 1007.
Excuse me—the photograph Exhibit No. 1006 represents that casement in its present condition?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Jenner. And also as it was when you saw it that night, April 10?
Mr. Surrey. No; the window was closed when I saw it that night.
Mr. Jenner. But the breach in the molding is the same on this photograph as it was when you saw it that night?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, the next photograph is Exhibit No. 1007, and purports to be a photograph taken from the outside of General Walker's home with the camera pointed into his home.
Mr. Surrey. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. And——
Mr. Surrey. It shows the same breach allegedly caused by a bullet——
Mr. Jenner. That is shown on Exhibit 1006?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And in the case of Exhibit No. 1006, that photograph represents the present condition of that casement and that window and that screen, as well as it was when you saw it on the evening of April 10, 1963? Insofar as the breach is concerned?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I seem to recall more cobwebbing effect than it shows in the photograph.
Mr. Jenner. Exhibit No. 1008 purports to be a room in General Walker's home, and a wall with a bullet hole shown in it.
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recognize that room?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I do.
Mr. Jenner. And is that a picture of one of the rooms in General Walker's home?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is.
Mr. Jenner. Where is it with respect to the room shown in Commission Exhibit No. 1007?
Mr. Surrey. It is the same room.
Mr. Jenner. The same room?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; all this material has been turned around, from that night.
Mr. Jenner. You are referring in your last comment to Commission Exhibit No. 1007, some pamphlet materials you see shown in that photograph?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, turning your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 1008, does the wall that is shown on that exhibit face the casement window shown on Exhibit No. 1007, or is that the reverse side?
Mr. Surrey. It is the other wall, the other side of the room from the window.
Mr. Jenner. Is that the wall in which the bullet entered, or the wall, the side of the wall from which the bullet exited?
Mr. Surrey. That is the side of the wall that it entered.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Then I show you Commission Exhibit No. 1009.
Mr. Surrey. Yes; this is the next room now where the bullet exited.
Mr. Jenner. Now, taking Exhibits Nos. 1008 and 1009, am I correct, sir, that Exhibit No. 1008 shows the wall on the entry side of the bullet, and Exhibit No. 1009 is the reverse side of the wall shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1008?
Mr. Surrey. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. In other words, the side of the wall that the bullet exited?
Mr. Surrey. That is correct.
Now, this picture was taken at the time, or soon thereafter, because this material was in this position.
(At this point, Senator Cooper withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Jenner. All right, sir.
You are able to say, from your familiarity with the condition of matters on the evening of April 10, 1963, that both Commission exhibits——
Mr. Surrey. No; that one I don't know.
Mr. Jenner. That Commission Exhibit No. 1009 depicts the condition of that room, which is the room to the reverse side of Commission Exhibit No. 1008, as it was the evening of April 10, 1963.
Mr. Surrey. Substantially the same; yes.
Mr. Jenner. And even including the boxes and packages of material?
Mr. Surrey. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. You will notice in substantially the center of that exhibit a rupture appears to be in the wall. Was that in fact a rupture?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it was. That is where the bullet came out of the wall, and when the police came they found the bullet on top of these packages.
Mr. Jenner. On top of the packages shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1009. I show you Exhibit No. 1011, which appears to be a photograph of a fence, lattice fence. Are you familiar with that?
Mr. Surrey. I believe it is the same type of thing as is in back of Walker's home, in the alleyway.
Mr. Jenner. Is it not in fact a picture of the fence that is—surrounds to the rear General Walker's home?
Mr. Surrey. I don't know. It is the same type, it looks the same.
Mr. Jenner. It looks the same to you?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. When you made your diagram, Exhibit No. 1005, you drew a wavy line along the alley, and I think you said that was a lattice fence.
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I drew it too far. This is Jackson's back yard.
Mr. Jenner. Well, that is all right. The lattice fence you identified——
Mr. Surrey. Is of the same type and construction.
Mr. Jenner. As shown on Exhibit No. 1011?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. All right, sir. Thank you. Is the area depicted on Commission Exhibit No. 1012 familiar to you?
Mr. Surrey. It looks like a picture taken from the top of that lattice fence towards the back of Walker's home.
Mr. Jenner. Next is Commission Exhibit No. 1010, which is a photograph of a tire imprint. On the evening of April 10 or the next day, April 11, when it was light, did you tour around General Walker's home with him or without him? There was a search made to see——
Mr. Surrey. Yes; there was.
Mr. Jenner. To find some identification in the way of automobile tire impressions?
Mr. Surrey. It is my impression that the police were looking primarily for a casing from a shell. I did not see them take any——
Mr. Jenner. So that the particular portion of the Walker vicinity shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1010 is not familiar to you?
Mr. Surrey. I wouldn't know where it was in the area.
Mr. Jenner. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Those have all been formally introduced, Mr. Jenner?
Mr. Jenner. No; they have not, Mr. Chief Justice. If it suits your convenience I was going to offer all exhibits at once, so I don't overlook any.
The Chairman. Yes; very well.
Mr. Jenner. Thank you. Some of the exhibits the witness has identified have already been introduced. They were exhibited to Marina Oswald.
The Chairman. Yes; I recall.
Mr. Jenner. Would you help us, also—I hand you a map of Dallas, which we will mark Commission Exhibit No. 1013—or I should correct myself—I hand you what purports to be a map of Dallas.
There is indicated by brush pencil a cross in the center of that map as representing the area of the residence of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker, resigned, at 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard in Dallas.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1013 for identification.)
Mr. Surrey. Yes; that is correct. That is the area.
Mr. Jenner. That is a scale map of Dallas that appears to have been obtained from the Dallas Transit Co. in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, you received a telephone call from General Walker?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. The evening of April 10. It was about 9 o'clock? Please try to fix that time as accurately as you can.
Mr. Surrey. I would say it was closer to 9:15.
Mr. Jenner. And you arrived 15 minutes later?
Mr. Surrey. 10 to 15 minutes later.
Mr. Jenner. Now, would you very carefully, calling on your most accurate recollection, recite for us—you came to the door, you entered, what did you see, who was there, and what was said to you by anyone, if anyone was there—just the course of events as best you are able to recall them that evening. And I will try not to interrupt you.
Mr. Surrey. When I pulled—I pulled up in front on Turtle Creek, got out of my car. A police car was there.
Mr. Jenner. Was there anything in addition to a police car?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Mr. Jenner. You pulled your car up on Turtle Creek Boulevard?
Mr. Surrey. Behind the police car.
Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough, when you refer to Turtle Creek Boulevard, to say boulevard, because we have talked about Turtle Creek, a stream.
Mr. Surrey. Turtle Creek Boulevard.
Mr. Jenner. There was one squad car there at that time?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; just as I was getting out of the car, another squad car came up.
Mr. Jenner. Turning to your plat, would you put an "X" with a circle where you drove up? The witness has now done that. All right. Now, you are on Turtle Creek Boulevard. Then what did you do? You parked?
Mr. Surrey. I parked and got out of my automobile, and walked up the front walkway into the house.
Mr. Jenner. I see. All right.
Mr. Surrey. There were several policemen in the house, just arriving. Mr. Walker was sitting at his desk in this back room.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Now it will be helpful to the Commission—let's take this blank sheet of paper—you draw us a floor plan, will you please, of General Walker's home, and we will mark that Commission Exhibit No. 1014, so as to assist you in telling us what you did.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1014 for identification.)
Mr. Surrey. This is the ground floor.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, first let's locate the house. It is a rectangle that you have drawn. Is the rectangle facing the same as the rectangle marked "Walker" on Commission Exhibit No. 1005?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is.
Mr. Jenner. So that the lower portion is east?
Mr. Surrey. Do we need these directions exactly, because that Turtle Creek Boulevard winds all around.
Mr. Jenner. All I want to do is tie it up with Commission Exhibit No. 1005.
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is the same direction.
Mr. Jenner. Realizing that you have that problem of obliqueness, but relating it solely to Commission Exhibit No. 1005, the foot of Commission Exhibit No. 1014 represents an easterly direction, correct?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And the top a westerly direction. And the right, northerly, and the left, southerly. All right. Now, we have it located.
Which is the doorway into General Walker's home?
Mr. Surrey. This is the—this is the front door. [Witness draws.]
Mr. Jenner. You have now put two oblique lines on the line facing southerly.
Mr. Surrey. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. And then as you enter, there is a long hallway.
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And which is the rear of the house towards the alley?
Mr. Surrey. Toward the north.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, in what room, if any of those rooms on the first floor, was General Walker the night of April 10, 1963, when this incident occurred, as you learned when you reached there?
Mr. Surrey. His desk was positioned right there.
Mr. Jenner. You have now drawn a small but rather elongated rectangle, which appears to be opposite two lines you have drawn which I take it represents a window.
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And from what you learned from General Walker on that occasion in the presence of the policemen, was he seated at the desk?
Mr. Surrey. He was seated at his desk.
Mr. Jenner. His back to the window you have drawn, or facing the window?
Mr. Surrey. To the window.
Mr. Jenner. So he was facing to the window?
Mr. Surrey. No; his back was to the window.
Mr. Jenner. He was facing away from the window?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And you have drawn a little circle by the figure representing a desk, indicating where General Walker was seated?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And facing westerly?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, locate for us, put a circle with a cross, the wall, the side of the wall indicated by Commission Exhibit No. 1008.
Mr. Surrey. It is right here, sir. [Witness draws.]
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, that is shown, for the purpose of the record, to the left of the blank circle which the witness drew to show General Walker sitting at his desk. And that area that is shown on—the wall shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1009, I take it, is precisely the other side.
Mr. Surrey. The other side.
Mr. Jenner. You have done that by showing an area?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Then we have that located.
Did General Walker in your presence relate what occurred?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Tell us what he said about how it occurred, when he became aware of it?
Mr. Surrey. I walked in the front door, and there were several policemen standing around in various areas. I walked in through here.
Mr. Jenner. When you say "through here" [witness draws two lines to represent door.]——
Mr. Surrey. Through the front——
Mr. Jenner. You came in from the south, the front, and you went down the hallway?
Mr. Surrey. It is not really a hallway. It is mostly glass doors here. And I walked through those glass doors.
Mr. Jenner. You have put three strikes on your sketch. What is that?
Mr. Surrey. Those are glass doors.
Mr. Jenner. You walked through the glass doorway. You walked into the room, the wall of which is shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1009. Correct?
Mr. Surrey. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Surrey. And I went right through this room.
Mr. Jenner. Into the room in which General Walker's desk is located?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. The wall of which on that side appears shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1008?
Mr. Surrey. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Surrey. The General was sitting at his desk.
Mr. Jenner. When you arrived?
Mr. Surrey. When I arrived.
Mr. Jenner. Was he facing——
Mr. Surrey. He was——
Mr. Jenner. Westerly?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, talking to a policeman in uniform. And I walked in and I said, "What happened? What's going on?" And he pointed to this hole in the wall.
Mr. Jenner. Shown on Commission Exhibit No. 1008?
Mr. Surrey. Yes. And I facetiously said, "Oh, you found a bug."
Mr. Jenner. Would you explain your facetious remark? I don't get the fact that it is facetious.
Mr. Surrey. Well, actually, it may not be. It is a common joke around the General's house that there may be microphones.
Mr. Jenner. That kind of a bug?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. That is, you saw the hole in the wall and you remarked facetiously that he had discovered the house had been bugged by an electronic device?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; and, therefore, had chopped a hole in the wall.
And he said, "No; I have been shot at." And he pointed to the hole in the window.
Mr. Jenner. Which is shown on Commission Exhibits Nos. 1007 and 1006?
Mr. Surrey. That is correct. Except the window was closed at this time—both casements were together.
Mr. Jenner. Yes; and there is a screen on that window?
Mr. Surrey. I believe there is.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. Surrey. And then——
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir. That would be the window which is the lower of the two sets of strikes appearing on the northerly line of your Exhibit No. 1014.
Mr. Surrey. Yes. I will mark it with an "A" and a circle.
Mr. Jenner. Good.
Mr. Surrey. And then a policeman asked him a question, and I noticed that his arm was bleeding.
Mr. Jenner. General Walker's arm?
Mr. Surrey. General Walker's arm, was bleeding in four or five places.
Mr. Jenner. How was he dressed?
Mr. Surrey. In a dress shirt of a color, as I recall, but it was not a sport shirt—and slacks.
Mr. Jenner. It was not a uniform of any character?
Mr. Surrey. No; and without a tie.
Mr. Jenner. Short sleeved or long sleeved?
Mr. Surrey. Long sleeved, rolled up.
Mr. Jenner. And his right arm, was it?
Mr. Surrey. His right arm, yes; on his forearm. And——
Mr. Jenner. Was he bleeding profusely?
Mr. Surrey. No. And he said "The jacket of the bullet must have come apart when it went through the window." And he brushed plaster—I assume it came from this wall—out of his hair, which was in his hair, also.
Mr. Jenner. What color hair does General Walker have?
Mr. Surrey. Brown; a dark brown.
Mr. Jenner. He has a fairly full head of hair, does he?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And plaster and that sort of thing would be quite apparent, would it, to anyone who saw it in his hair?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And you noticed it?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And you noticed him brushing plaster out of his hair?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, that leads me to ask you this, Mr. Surrey: That bullet hole is how high from the floor? I am showing you now Commission Exhibit No. 1009.
Mr. Surrey. You mean how high is the hole——
Mr. Jenner. From the floor.
Mr. Surrey. From the floor? Well, the police went into the next room and so did I, and sighted through the hole in the wall to the window.
Mr. Surrey. And when Walker sat down at his desk, it went right through his head.
Mr. Jenner. So he was seated on a chair substantially the height of the one you are seated on?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, and he is approximately a little taller than I am.
Mr. Jenner. He is a little taller than you are. So that would be about 4, 4½ feet.
Tell the Commission the distance from the wall, the point at which you have marked an "X" with a circle, and the place at which General Walker's chair was located.
Mr. Surrey. I would say 18 inches.
Mr. Jenner. He was that close?
Mr. Surrey. To the wall there; yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. So that the representation you have made on Commission Exhibit No. 1014 is distorted?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it is. The desk was right up against the wall, and he was seated in the middle of the desk.
Mr. Jenner. His chair was much closer to the wall than would appear to have been as you have roughly diagramed on Exhibit No. 1014?
Mr. Surrey. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. All right. In other words, he was close enough to the wall when seated at that chair so that when a bullet penetrating the plaster wall could have splattered plaster into his hair?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Proceed, sir.
Mr. Surrey. So I went over and looked at his arm, and there was a piece of metal in one particular spot in his arm, that I noticed, in addition to the other scratches, and I went looking for some first aid equipment and found tweezers upstairs, and came back downstairs and picked that piece of metal and two others out of his right forearm.
Mr. Jenner. And what was done with those pieces of metal?
Mr. Surrey. They were—I believe the police took them.
Mr. Jenner. But you recall that you, in fact, yourself took the pieces of metal from General Walker's right forearm?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And—all right. Go ahead, sir.
Mr. Surrey. Well, then it became just a matter of the police questioning the general and myself. I don't recall which detective or which policemen and myself went out in the back and looked in the back area.
Mr. Jenner. Is that what you did next, after you took the metal out of General Walker's forearm?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. You immediately went out of the house——
Mr. Surrey. Not immediately; no. We talked. I would say within 2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. Jenner. But you did not go into any other room? That is what I am getting at first. You went outside first?
Mr. Surrey. I don't recall if we went in the other room then or later on.
Mr. Jenner. When you say the other room, it is the room opposite the one and to the left of the one shown on your diagram——
Mr. Surrey. As I recall, I merely looked around the separation here when they said that the bullet came clear through into the other room.
Mr. Jenner. Who said that?
Mr. Surrey. One of the policemen.
Mr. Jenner. And did you go around and look then?
Mr. Surrey. I just looked around the doorway; yes.
Mr. Jenner. What did you find when you looked around—what did you see?
Mr. Surrey. I saw these books stacked, as shown in this picture.
Mr. Jenner. Identify the picture, please.
Mr. Surrey. Exhibit No. 1009.
Mr. Jenner. Had—you mentioned a bullet as having been found.
Mr. Surrey. Yes, the policeman said he had found that bullet, on top of the packages.
Mr. Jenner. Shown in Exhibit No. 1009?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Was that portion of the bullet exhibited to you on that occasion?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Mr. Jenner. You did not see it?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Mr. Jenner. Was the statement that the bullet had been found on the opposite side of that wall made in the presence of General Walker?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. What did General Walker say when that statement was made in his presence, if anything?
Mr. Surrey. I don't recall that he made any statement.
Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about where the spent bullet had been found?
Mr. Surrey. Not at that time, no. Not to me.
Mr. Jenner. Well, did he say it to an officer in your presence?
Mr. Surrey. Not that I recall.
Mr. Jenner. Was it uttered by him at all in your presence on that evening?
Mr. Surrey. Not that I recall.
Mr. Jenner. That is, that the spent bullet had been found on the opposite side of the wall next to which he had been sitting?
Mr. Surrey. No; I think the policeman said it, and that is all that was said.
Mr. Jenner. But it was said in General Walker's presence?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it was.
Mr. Jenner. What did the policeman say?
Mr. Surrey. He said the bullet went clean through the wall and they found it laying on the packages in the other room.
Mr. Jenner. Did he say they found it or "I found it"?
Mr. Surrey. He said, "I found it" as I recall.
Mr. Jenner. Proceed in your chronology, please.
Mr. Surrey. That is all there was to it. Then he started getting calls from newsmen, and newsmen coming to the door.
Mr. Jenner. First, you went out and looked around the premises.
Mr. Surrey. Yes; but it was quite dark at this time, and they said, "We will come back in the morning."
Mr. Jenner. I should have asked you this. Perhaps I just assumed it. Was it dark when you arrived at General Walker's home?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it was.
Mr. Jenner. When does it get dark in Dallas, Tex., in this area in the spring?
Mr. Surrey. I would say 7.
Mr. Jenner. Do you have daylight saving time in Dallas?
Mr. Surrey. No; we don't.
Mr. Jenner. And you are on what time?
Mr. Surrey. Central standard.
Mr. Jenner. Central standard time?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Well——
Mr. Surrey. It is 2 hours from here.
The Chairman. Two hours from here when we have daylight savings.
Mr. Surrey. You have daylight saving now?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Only 1 hour then.
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. After looking around, you say newspapermen began to come.
Mr. Surrey. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. And interview General Walker?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. In your presence?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And in the presence of the policemen?
Mr. Jenner. When did you leave General Walker's home that night?
Mr. Surrey. I stayed that night.
Mr. Jenner. Did you hear General Walker being interviewed?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. What did he say about what had occurred, if anything?
Mr. Surrey. He said, "Somebody took a shot at me." This is the general tenor of the interviews as to what happened, and he said, "Somebody took a shot at me." I guess—"That is the closest I have ever been missed in 30 years of military service."
Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about whether he was seated—whether he had been moving about?
Mr. Surrey. No; he said he had been seated at his desk when it happened. Working on his income tax.
Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. Surrey, was there an occasion preceding October—April 10, 1963, that you noticed an automobile and some people in the automobile in and about General Walker's premises?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; that was 2 nights before, on Monday evening.
Mr. Jenner. That would be April 10?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I mean April 8, I am sorry.
Mr. Surrey. April 8; yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. What time?
Mr. Surrey. About 8:30 to 9. I am not sure about what time it was.
Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, it was dark?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; it was.
Mr. Jenner. And tell the Commission what led up to that, what you said, and what you did. This incident that you have in mind.
Mr. Surrey. I was coming from my home, came down Turtle Creek Boulevard, passed in front of the general's house, and took a right-hand turn on Avondale, to come up to the alley.
Mr. Jenner. Have we put Avondale into your plat? You are now turning to Commission Exhibit No. 1005. [Witness draws.]
Mr. Surrey. The normal route into the parking lot behind the general's house——
Mr. Jenner. He does have a parking lot?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; this is the parking area back in here.
Mr. Jenner. Now, would you crossline that, so we know it is the parking lot? [Witness draws.]
That is fine.
Mr. Surrey. I came up Turtle Creek Boulevard and turned right on Avondale prior to turning again up the alleyway, to go into the parking lot in back of General Walker's house. And I noticed a car parked 30 feet—about 20 yards actually——
Mr. Jenner. You have now drawn a rectangle on the edge of the sheet of paper, Exhibit No. 1005, marked with the letter "N." Would you write the word "car" in there?
The Chairman. What is this designed to establish, Mr. Jenner? We are getting a little afield, it seems to me.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Surrey, Mr. Chief Justice, was interviewed and related this particular incident, and we want to dissipate any possibility—I don't want to put it this way——
The Chairman. If it has some relevancy, all right. But let's don't take too long, because it is getting to be quite collateral. Go right ahead.
Mr. Surrey. Well, the gist of the matter is that two nights before the assassination attempt, I saw two men around the house peeking in windows and so forth, and reported this to the general the following morning, and he, in turn, reported it to the police on Tuesday, and it was Wednesday night that he was shot at. So that is really the gist of the whole thing.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Jenner. I show you an exhibit marked Garner Exhibit No. 1. At anytime prior to April 10, 1963, were you familiar with the person who is shown on Garner Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Mr. Jenner. When I say familiar, I mean did you know of or had you seen consciously a person with that physiognomy and physical appearance?
Mr. Surrey. No; I have not.
Mr. Jenner. That is a side view.
I show you Commission Exhibit No. 520. The man in the center—had you prior to April 10, 1963, ever seen a man with that physiognomy, facial showing, and body?
Mr. Surrey. No.
Mr. Jenner. All right, sir. I take it, then—I ask you this question. Neither of the two men that you saw in that automobile on the 8th of April 1963, at least to your present recollection, was the man shown on Garner Exhibit No. 1, and Commission Exhibit No. 520?
Mr. Surrey. I don't believe either of them was.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
The Chairman. May I ask—is this what you spoke of as the book?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I notice on here that there is no price of any kind. You say you sold this for $5?
Mr. Surrey. That was an afterthought. The original intent was not a sale.
The Chairman. Was it ever advertised to the public as for sale from $5?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
The Chairman. Where was it advertised?
Mr. Surrey. In just a flier that we included with some materials we were mailing out.
The Chairman. I see. I would like to ask you if you were present when—at the time that they had—that there was the demonstration against Ambassador Adlai Stevenson?
Mr. Surrey. No; I was not.
The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with that demonstration?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you present when the demonstration was against then Vice President Johnson in Dallas?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with that?
Mr. Surrey. No, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chief Justice, we have marked the book as Commission Exhibit No. 1015.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1015 for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Would you please examine it? You need no more than just to look at it, so you will be able to testify that that is a true and correct copy of the book you have testified about, published by Eagle Publishing Co., which contains on its reverse cover side the letter to which you made reference.
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir; it is.
The Chairman. What did it cost you to publish that?
Mr. Surrey. It came to $2.50 and some cents. In a limited quantity—3,000.
The Chairman. Do you now propose to offer all of the exhibits?
Mr. Jenner. Yes; I have three more FBI photos, and then I will have completed.
The Chairman. Very well.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Surrey, I show you three more photographs which are identified first as Commission Exhibit No. 997. Would you read the material that appears on the reverse side of that first, please?
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 997 for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Looking now at the face of the photograph, Commission Exhibit No. 997, does—do the inscriptions on the reverse side correctly describe that area of General Walker's home and the Mormon church references?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; they do.
Mr. Jenner. You are familiar with that area?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I am.
Jenner. And its physical appearance, except for the foliage on the trees, is as that area looked on the night of April 10, 1963? Is that correct?
Mr. Surrey. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 1016.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1016 for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Read the inscription on the reverse side, please. You are familiar with that area shown on the photograph?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; I am.
Mr. Jenner. Do the descriptions on the reverse side of the photograph correctly describe that area?
Mr. Surrey. With the exception that I do not know these cars and so forth.
Mr. Jenner. I am talking about the area.
Mr. Surrey. The physical area; yes, they do.
Mr. Jenner. And that area looks the same today as it did on the evening of April 10, or the day of April 10, 1963?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. I now hand you the last of these, Commission Exhibit No. 1017, and ask you first to read the inscription and then examine the photograph.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1017 for identification.)
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir; these are substantially correct.
Mr. Jenner. As of today, as well as as of April 10, 1963?
Mr. Surrey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Now, Mr. Chief Justice, I offer in evidence the various exhibits which we have identified in the record with the exhibit numbers, and ask that the exhibits take the exhibit numbers I recited in each instance as to each exhibit, being Exhibits Nos. 996 through 1000 and 1002 through 1017.
The Chairman. They may all be admitted under those numbers.
(The documents heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 996 through 1000 and 1002 through 1017 were received in evidence.)
Mr. Jenner. That includes, Mr. Chief Justice, the diagrams which the witness has prepared for us.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. As I reported to you, Mr. Chief Justice, the file on the Walker incident reached us about 20 minutes before we opened this morning. I think I have covered everything. Could I have the privilege of 5 minutes to take a look?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I will do it very quickly.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Who is Mr. Coleman? Do you know a man by that name?
Mr. Surrey. Not personally.
Mr. Jenner. Walker Kirk Coleman.
Mr. Surrey. As I just read on the back of your exhibit, he is the boy that reported seeing several automobiles at the time of the assassination.
Mr. Jenner. That is immaterial to this issue.
You have never seen either of the two men you have mentioned before or since the occasion you saw that automobile with the two men in it on the evening of April 8, 1963?
Mr. Surrey. Not to my knowledge. I never was very close to them.
Mr. Jenner. Were you able to—what kind of an automobile was it, do you know?
Mr. Surrey. It was a Ford, a new Ford at that time.
Mr. Jenner. Sedan?
Mr. Surrey. Four-door sedan.
Mr. Jenner. And it was new?
Mr. Surrey. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. To your knowledge, have you ever seen that automobile before or since?
Mr. Jenner. What color was it, if you noticed?
Mr. Surrey. It was either a dark brown or a maroon.
Mr. Jenner. You followed it awhile and then gave up the chase?
Mr. Surrey. That is correct. Actually, they made a turn which—I am familiar with downtown Dallas—and they made a turn which would indicate they were doubling back or not going in a straight direction. And I thought perhaps I had been spotted in my convertible. So I left them there.
Mr. Jenner. I will close, Mr. Chief Justice, by asking the witness—was the Mormon church in session? Had there been——
Mr. Surrey. There had been services.
Mr. Jenner. The evening of April 10?
Mr. Surrey. They were still dispersing.
Mr. Jenner. When you arrived at approximately 9:30 in the evening of April 10, were people still leaving the Mormon church?
Mr. Surrey. Yes; they were.
Mr. Jenner. I have no more questions.
The Chairman. That will be all, Mr. Surrey. You may be excused now.
The Commission is adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
[Thursday, June 18, 1964]
TESTIMONY OF JAMES J. ROWLEY AND ROBERT CARSWELL
The President's Commission met at 9 a.m., on June 18, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel.