TESTIMONY OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER
The Chairman. Mr. Specter, you may proceed.
You have been sworn and you are still under oath, as you understand?
Mr. Frazier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. Will you state your name again for the record, please?
Mr. Frazier. Robert A. Frazier.
Mr. Specter. Mr. Frazier, you have appeared heretofore to testify about certain tests which you have conducted, but at this phase of the record, will you state briefly your occupation and your specialty, please?
Mr. Frazier. I am a special agent assigned to the FBI laboratory, the firearms identification unit in Washington, D.C., where I make examinations of bullets, cartridges, gunpowder tests, bullet holes, examinations of clothing, and other similar types of examinations.
Mr. Specter. In the course of your duties have you had an occasion to examine the clothing which was purportedly worn by President John Kennedy on November 22, 1963?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. Specter. And do you have that clothing with you at the present time, sir?
Mr. Frazier. I have certain parts of it. I have the coat, shirt, tie, and the bandages and support belt which he allegedly was wearing that day.
Mr. Specter. Would you refer at this time to the coat, if you please, which, may the record show, has heretofore been marked as Commission Exhibit 393.
And by referring to that coat will you describe what, if anything, you observed on the rear side of the coat?
Mr. Frazier. There was located on the rear of the coat 5-3/8 inches below the top of the collar, a hole, further located as 1¾ inches to the right of the midline or the seam down the center of the coat; all of these being as you look at the back of the coat.
Mr. Specter. What characteristics did you note, if any, on the nature of that hole?
Mr. Frazier. I noticed that the hole penetrated both the outer and lining areas of the coat, that it was roughly circular in shape. When I first examined it it was approximately one-fourth of an inch in diameter, and the cloth fibers around the margins of the hole were pushed inward at the time I first examined it in the laboratory.
Mr. Specter. Did any tests conducted on the coat disclose any metallic substance on that area of that hole?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. I had a spectrographer run an analysis of a portion of the hole which accounts for its being slightly enlarged at the present time. He took a sample of cloth and made an analysis of it. I don't know actually whether I am expected to give the results of his analysis or not.
Mr. Specter. Yes; would you please, or let me ask you first of all, were those tests run by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in the regular course of its testing procedures?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. Specter. And have those results been made available to you through the regular recordkeeping procedures of the FBI?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Would you then please tell us what those tests disclose?
Mr. Frazier. Traces of copper were found around the margins of the hole in the back of the coat, and as a control, a very small section under the collar was taken, and no copper being found there, it was concluded that the copper was foreign to the coat itself.
Mr. Specter. Have you now described all of the characteristics of that hole, which you consider to be important for the Commission's consideration?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Assuming that those clothes, that jacket, specifically, at this juncture, was worn by President Kennedy, and was in the same condition when that hole was made as it is now, and at the time when you made your examination, do you have a professional opinion as to what caused that hole in the back of the jacket?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; I would say that it was an entrance hole for a bullet.
Mr. Specter. And what is the reason for that conclusion, please?
Mr. Frazier. It has all the physical appearance characteristics which are considered when examining holes, such as its shape, its size, and in particular the fact that the fibers around the margins of the hole were all pushed inward where the cloth was torn by the object which passed through, and the fibers were unraveled as they were pushed inward, which is characteristic of a entrance-type bullet hole.
Mr. Specter. Is the presence of the metallic substance relevant in your conclusion that it was a bullet hole?
Mr. Frazier. Not necessarily. It is a factor which corroborates that opinion but even without it, it would still have been my opinion that it was a bullet entrance hole.
Mr. Specter. Can you tell the size of the bullet from the hole in the jacket?
Mr. Frazier. The hole in the jacket is approximately a quarter of an inch in diameter.
Mr. Specter. Would that hole be consistent with a hole which would be caused by a 6.5 millimeter bullet?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; the actual bullet which makes a hole cannot be determined because the cloth in one instance may stretch more than it does in another instance causing either a larger or smaller hole even for the same caliber, but it is consistent for a bullet of 6.5 millimeters in diameter to make a hole of approximately this size.
Mr. Specter. Were there any holes indicative of being bullet holes found on the front part of the President's jacket?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir.
Mr. Specter. Did you have further occasion to examine the President's shirt?
Mr. Frazier. I did.
Mr. Specter. May the record show that the shirt has heretofore been identified as Commission Exhibit 394?
The Chairman. Yes; it may be.
Mr. Specter. What, if anything, did you observe then on the back side of the shirt, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. I found on the back of the shirt a hole, 5¾ inches below the top of the collar, and as you look at the back of the shirt 1-1/8 inch to the right of the midline of the shirt, which is this hole I am indicating.
Mr. Specter. May the record show the witness is examining the shirt, as he has the coat, to indicate the hole to the Commission.
The Chairman. The record may show that.
Mr. Frazier. In connection with this hole, I made the same examination as I did on the coat, Exhibit 393. I found the same situation to prevail, that is the hole was approximately circular in shape, about one-fourth inch in diameter, and again the physical shape of it is characteristic of a bullet hole, that is the edges are frayed, and there are slight radial tears in the cloth, which is characteristic of a bullet having passed through the cloth, and further, the fibers around the margin of the hole were—had been pressed inward, and assuming that, when I first examined the shirt it was in the same condition as it was at the time the hole was made, it is my opinion that this hole, in addition, was caused by a bullet entering the shirt from the back at that point.
Mr. Specter. Is that hole consistent with having been caused by a 6.5 millimeter bullet?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; it is.
Mr. Specter. With respect to the front side of the shirt, what, if any, hole did you find there?
Mr. Frazier. Only one hole.
Mr. Dulles. May I ask one question there?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; certainly.
Mr. Dulles. Is the hole in the shirt and the hole in the coat you have just described in a position that indicates that the same instrument, whatever it was, or the same bullet, made the two?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; they are. They are both—the coat hole is 5-3/8 inches below the top of the collar. The shirt hole is 5¾ inches, which could be accounted for by a portion of the collar sticking up above the coat about a half inch.
Mr. Dulles. I see.
Mr. Frazier. And they are both located approximately the same distance to the right of the midline of both garments.
Now, on the front of the shirt, I found what amounts to one hole. Actually, it is a hole through both the button line of the shirt and the buttonhole line which overlap down the front of the shirt when it is buttoned.
Mr. Specter. Proceed.
Mr. Frazier. This hole is located immediately below the button being centered seven-eighths of an inch below the button on the shirt, and similarly seven-eighths of an inch below the buttonhole on the opposite side.
The Chairman. You are speaking of the collar button itself, aren't you?
Mr. Frazier. The collar button.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Frazier. In each instance for these holes, the one through the button line and the one through the buttonhole line, the hole amounts to a ragged slit approximately one-half inch in height. It is oriented vertically, and the fibers of the cloth are protruding outward, that is, have been pushed from the inside out. I could not actually determine from the characteristics of the hole whether or not it was caused by a bullet. However, I can say that it was caused by a projectile of some type which exited from the shirt at that point and that is again assuming that when I first examined the shirt it was—it had not been altered from the condition it was in at the time the hole was made.
Mr. Specter. What characteristics differ between the hole in the rear of the shirt and the holes in the front of the shirt which lead you to conclude that the hole in the rear of the shirt was caused by a bullet but which are absent as to the holes in the front of the shirt?
Mr. Frazier. The hole in the front of the shirt does not have the round characteristic shape caused by a round bullet entering cloth. It is an irregular slit. It could have been caused by a round bullet, however, since the cloth could have torn in a long slitlike way as the bullet passed through it. But that is not specifically characteristic of a bullethole to the extent that you could say it was to the exclusion of being a piece of bone or some other type of projectile.
Mr. Specter. Have you now described all of the characteristics of the front of the shirt holes which you consider to be important?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question there. If the bullet, after entering, hit something that made it tumble or change, would that account for this change in the appearance of the exit through the shirt?
Mr. Frazier. I think not. In my opinion it would not have been necessary, if I may put it that way, for the bullet to have turned sideways or partially sideways in order to make an elongated hole.
Mr. Dulles. I see.
Mr. Frazier. I think the effect in the front of the shirt is due more to the strength of the material being more in the horizontal rather than the vertical direction which caused the cloth to tear vertically rather than due to a change in the shape or size of the bullet or projectile.
Mr. Dulles. Or possibly the velocity of the bullet at that place, would that have anything to do with it?
Mr. Frazier. I think the hole would not have been affected unless it was a very large change in velocity.
The Chairman. Mr. Frazier, I notice that the front of the shirt immediately around the hole you have just been describing and in fact on much of the front of the shirt is bloodsoaked. Would that, with the other evidences you have seen there indicate to you as an expert that this was the exit of the bullet that had entered in the back of the coat as you have described it?
Mr. Frazier. The presence of the blood would have in my opinion no value for determining which was entrance or exit, because I have seen entrance wounds which bleed extensively and exit wounds which bleed not at all and vice versa. It depends entirely on the type of bullet which strikes, whether or not it mutilates itself in the body, and probably more importantly it depends on the position of the person who is shot after the shooting occurs as to where the blood will be located on the garments.
The Chairman. May I put it this way, probably a little better. Do the evidences that you see on this shirt indicate to you that this hole in the front of the shirt that you have just described was made by the bullet which entered in the rear.
Mr. Frazier. I can say that this hole in the collar area could have been made by this bullet but I cannot say that the bullet which entered the back actually came out here or at some other place because I am not aware of the autopsy information as to the path of the bullet through the body.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. Frazier. But if the path of the bullet was such that it came through the body at the right angle, then one bullet could have caused both holes.
The Chairman. Could have caused both holes.
Mr. Frazier. Yes.
The Chairman. That is sufficient.
Mr. Dulles. Is it correct that the blood on the shirt might well have been occasioned by the second wound rather than exclusively by the first wound?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; it could have come from any other wound on the body as well as this one.
Mr. Specter. When you refer to any other wound, Mr. Frazier, are you referring to the head wound which is widely known to have been inflicted on the President at the time of the assassination?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to examine the President's tie or the tie purportedly worn by the President on November 22, 1963?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; I did.
Mr. Specter. May the record show at this juncture that that tie has heretofore been marked as Commission Exhibit 395?
The Chairman. Yes; it may show that.
Mr. Specter. What did you note, if anything, with respect to the tie, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. When the tie was examined by me in the laboratory I noted that the neck portion had been cut from one side of the knot. However, the knot remained in apparently its original condition. The only damage to the tie other than the fact that it had been cut, was a crease or nick in the left side of the tie when you consider the tie as being worn on a body. As you view the front of the tie it would be on the right side. This nick would be located in a corresponding area to the area in the shirt collar just below the button.
Mr. Specter. As you now indicate on your own tie, you are indicating on the portion of the tie to your right?
Mr. Frazier. If it was on my tie it would be on the left side of the tie.
Mr. Specter. Your left side.
Mr. Frazier. The left side of my tie. There is a nick on the left side of the tie if you consider it as left and right according to the person wearing the tie.
Mr. Specter. Does the nick in the tie provide any indication of the direction of the missile?
Mr. Frazier. The nick is elongated horizontally, indicating a possible horizontal direction but it does not indicate that the projectile which caused it was exiting or entering at that point. The fibers were not disturbed in a characteristic manner which would permit any conclusion in that connection.
Mr. Specter. Is the nick consistent with an exiting path?
Mr. Frazier. Oh, yes.
Mr. Specter. Is there any indication from the nature of the nick as to the nature of the projectile itself?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir.
Mr. Specter. Is the nick consistent with a 6.5 millimeter bullet having caused the nick?
Mr. Frazier. Yes. Any projectile could have caused the nick. In this connection there was no metallic residue found on the tie, and for that matter there was no metallic residue found on the shirt at the holes in the front. However, there was in the back.
Mr. Specter. Did any of the other——
Mr. Dulles. Excuse me, on the back of the coat?
Mr. Frazier. The shirt.
Mr. Dulles. Back of the coat and on the shirt?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Did any of the other items of President Kennedy's clothing which you have heretofore referred to contain any indications at all of any bullet holes or any other type of holes?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir.
Mr. Specter. Mr. Frazier, did you have occasion to examine the clothing which has heretofore been identified in prior Commission proceedings as that worn by Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; I did.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you what purports to be the Governor's coat, and may the record show that has been heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 683?
(At this point the Chairman left the hearing room.)
Mr. Dulles [presiding]. The record may so show.
Mr. Specter. Have you had opportunity heretofore to examine that coat?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; I have.
Mr. Specter. What did your examination reveal with respect to the back side of the coat?
Mr. Frazier. There was found on the coat by me when I first examined it, near the right sleeve 1-1/8 inches from the seam where the sleeve attaches to the coat, and 7¼ inches to the right of the midline when you view the back of the coat, a hole which is elongated in a horizontal direction to the length of approximately five-eights of an inch, and which had an approximate one-quarter inch height.
Mr. Specter. Were you able to determine from your examination of the Governor's clothing whether or not they had been cleaned and pressed prior to the time you saw them?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; they had.
Mr. Specter. Is that different from or the same as the condition of the President's clothing which you have just described this morning?
Mr. Frazier. It is different in that the President's clothing had not been cleaned. It had only been dried. The blood was dried. However, the Governor's garments had been cleaned and pressed.
Mr. Specter. Had the President's clothing been pressed then?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir.
Mr. Specter. Will you proceed to describe any other characteristics——
Mr. Dulles. Had been dried artificially or let nature take its course?
Mr. Frazier. It appeared to be air dried.
Mr. Dulles. Air dried, artificially?
Mr. Frazier. I couldn't say whether any outside heat had been applied but it did not appear that any heat had been applied to the blood.
Mr. Specter. Proceed.
Mr. Frazier. On the hole on the back of the coat although it had the general appearance and could have been a bullet hole, possibly because of the cleaning and pressing of the garment. I cannot state that it actually is a bullet hole nor the direction of the path of the bullet, if it were a bullet hole.
Mr. Specter. Is the nature of the opening consistent with being a bullet hole?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. Specter. And is it consistent with a bullet hole caused by a missile traveling from the back to the front of the wearer of the garment?
Mr. Frazier. I could not determine that.
Mr. Specter. You couldn't determine that it was, but could it have been?
Mr. Frazier. It could have been, yes; either way.
Mr. Specter. All right. Will you now turn to the front side of the coat and state what, if any, damage you observed on the body of the garment?
Mr. Frazier. When considered from the wearer's standpoint, on the right chest area of the coat there is a hole through the lining and the outer layer of the coat which is located 6½ inches from the right side seam line and also 6½ inches from the armpit which places this hole approximately 5 inches to the right of the front right edge of the coat.
This hole was approximately circular in shape, three-eights of an inch in diameter, and again possibly because of the cleaning and pressing of the garment, I could not determine whether it actually was a bullet hole or whether or not it entered or exited if it were a bullet hole.
Mr. Specter. Was the hole consistent with being an exit bullet hole? That is to say, could it have been caused by an exiting bullet?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Did you find any damage on the right sleeve of the jacket?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; on more or less the top portion of the right sleeve very near the end of the sleeve there is a very rough hole which penetrates both the outside layer, the lining and the inside layer of the sleeve.
Mr. Specter. Were you able to observe sufficient characteristics to formulate any conclusion as to the cause of that tear?
Mr. Frazier. This also did not indicate direction from the condition of the fibers, possibly due to the cleaning and pressing of the garment.
However, it could have been a bullet which struck the garment at an angle to the surface which caused a slight elongation. The hole was approximately five-eights of an inch in length, and three-eights of an inch in width. The elongation could also have been the result of a mutilated bullet having struck the garment or it could have been caused by a fold in the garment at the time the object or bullet struck.
Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to examine the shirt, which was purportedly worn by Governor Connally, and which has heretofore been identified by the Governor in Commission proceedings, as that worn by him on November 22, 1963?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; I did.
Mr. Specter. May the record show at this point that Mr. Frazier is examining the shirt heretofore identified on the back side with a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 685 and on the front side with a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 686.
Now, referring to that shirt, Mr. Frazier, what, if anything, did you observe on the rear side by way of an imperfection, hole or defect?
Mr. Frazier. I found a hole which is very ragged. An L-shaped tear actually is what it amounted to in the back of the shirt near the right sleeve, 2 inches from the seam line where the sleeve attaches to the shirt, and 7½ inches to the right of the midline of the shirt, the right side being as you look at the back of the shirt.
This tear amounted to a five-eights of an inch long horizontal and approximately one-half inch long vertical break in the cloth, with a very small tear located immediately to its right, as you look at the back of the shirt, which was approximately three-sixteenths of an inch in length.
This hole corresponds in position to the hole in the back of the coat, Governor Connally's coat, identified as Commission No. 683.
Mr. Specter. Were there sufficient characteristics observable to formulate a conclusion as to the cause and direction of that hole?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; there were no characteristics on which you could base a conclusion as to what caused it, whether or not it was a bullet and if it had been, what the direction of the projectile was.
Mr. Specter. Could it have been caused by a 6.5-mm. bullet coming from the rear of the wearer toward his front?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Referring now to the front side of the Governor's shirt, what, if anything, did you observe with respect to a tear or a hole thereon, as to the body of the shirt?
Mr. Frazier, I found in the right chest area of the shirt, considering the shirt when it is being worn, a very irregular tear more or less in the form of an "H," of the letter "H." This tear was approximately 1½ inches in height, with the crossbar tear being approximately 1 inch in width, which caused a very irregularly shaped and enlarged hole in the front of the shirt. The hole is located 5 inches from the right-side seam, and 9 inches below the top of the right sleeve. The 9-inch figure is from the top of the right shoulder where the sleeve adjoins the yoke of the shirt.
Mr. Specter. Had that garment been cleaned and pressed, Mr. Frazier, prior to the time you examined it?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Were there sufficient characteristics then remaining on the hole on the front side to enable you to formulate an opinion as to the cause of the hole?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir.
Mr. Specter. Could it have been caused by a 6.5 millimeter bullet exiting from the chest of the Governor?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, it could.
Mr. Specter. Now what, if anything——
Mr. Dulles. Could I ask there, would the size and character of this hole indicate the condition of the bullet, I mean as to whether it was tumbling or whether it was a mutilated bullet or anything of that kind?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; it would not.
Mr. Dulles. Even a bullet in full flight, full velocity could have made this kind of a hole in the shirt?
Mr. Frazier. It could have, particularly if the shirt had been wrinkled at the time it passed through, and particularly because the material in this shirt tore rather severely at the time the object passed through, indicating a very weak structure of the cotton fiber, so that it would tear out of all proportion to a stronger fabric.
And for that reason, the shape of the hole could be affected by the condition of the material as well as any folds in the material or, as you say, by a mutilated bullet or a passage of a bullet through the cloth at an angle to the surface or the passing of a bullet partially sideways through the cloth.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Dulles. Will you proceed?
Mr. Specter. Mr. Frazier, what, if any, defect or hole did you observe on the right sleeve of the Governor's shirt?
Mr. Frazier. I found in the cuff of the shirt which is a French cuff, through both the outer and inner layers of the cuff, a hole which is ragged in contour, irregularly shaped, and which had more or less star-shaped tears extending outward from the hole into the material, located 1½ inches up from the end of the sleeve, and 5½ inches from the outside cuff link hole, through both, as I said, through both layers of the cuff, and the hole was in such a condition, possibly due to the washing of the material, that I could not determine what actually caused it or if it had been caused by a bullet, the direction of the path of the bullet with reference to entrance and exit.
Mr. Specter. Could those holes have been caused by a bullet passing through the Governor's wrist from the dorsal or upper portion to the volar or palmar side?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; they could.
Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion to examine the trousers which have been heretofore identified in Commission hearings as those worn by Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, I did.
Mr. Specter. May the record show that Mr. Frazier has taken and is observing the trousers which have been identified in the record, through a picture of the front side, bearing Commission Exhibit No. 687 and a picture of the rear side bearing Commission Exhibit No. 688.
Now, referring to those trousers, what if anything did you observe in the nature of a defect or hole, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. Frazier. In the area which would be the left-knee area of the person wearing the trousers, there was a hole which is roughly circular in shape, and approximately one-quarter of an inch in diameter with some possible expansion of the hole due to slight tearing of the cloth at the outer margins of the hole.
Mr. Specter. Had the trousers been cleaned and pressed prior to your examination?
Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Were there sufficient characteristics available for you to formulate any conclusion as to the cause of that hole?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I can say that it had the general appearance of a bullet hole but I could not determine the direction of the bullet if, in fact, it had been caused by a bullet.
Mr. Specter. What are the characteristics which led you to believe that it had the characteristics of a bullet hole?
Mr. Frazier. It has the roughly circular shape with slight tearing away from the edges of the material.
Mr. Specter. Is there any other hole on the trousers which could be a hole of exit?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir.
Mr. Specter. Mr. Frazier, did you have occasion to examine an automobile which was the vehicle used customarily by the President of the United States in parades?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; I did.
Mr. Specter. When did that examination occur?
Mr. Frazier. In the early morning hours of November 23, 1963, at the Secret Service garage here in Washington, D.C.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a photograph previously identified for the record as Commission Exhibit No. 344 and ask you if that depicts the car which you examined?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. Specter. I hand you a subsequent exhibit of the Commission, No. 346, showing the interior view of the automobile and ask you if that depicts the automobile which you examined?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; however, it wasn't in this condition. It wasn't as clean as it is in Exhibit 346.
Mr. Specter. What was the condition with respect to cleanliness?
Mr. Frazier. There were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car.
Mr. Specter. Is that condition depicted by Commission Exhibits 352 and 353 to the extent that they show the interior of the automobile?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. What was the purpose of the examination which you made of the car at that time and place?
Mr. Frazier. I examined the car to determine whether or not there were any bullet fragments present in it, embedded in the upholstery of the back of the front seat, or whether there were any impact areas which indicated that bullets or bullet fragments struck the inside of the car.
Mr. Specter. With respect to the fragments first, what did your examination disclose?
Mr. Frazier. We found three small lead particles lying on the rug in the rear seat area. These particles were located underneath or in the area which would be underneath the left jump seat.
Mr. Specter. Have those particles been identified during the course of your prior testimony?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; they have not?
Mr. Specter. Will you produce them at this time then, please? May we assign to this group of particles Commission Exhibit No. 840?
Mr. Dulles. These have not been discussed before, have they?
Mr. Specter. They have not.
Mr. Dulles. It shall be admitted as Commission Exhibit No. 840.
(Commission Exhibit No. 840 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. Specter. I move formally for their admission, then, into evidence at this time.
Mr. Dulles. They shall be admitted.
Mr. Specter. Will you describe the three pieces of metal which are contained within this vial, please?
Mr. Frazier. The three pieces of metal are lead. They were weighed immediately upon recovery and were found to weigh nine-tenths of a grain, seven-tenths of a grain, and seven-tenths of a grain, respectively. Since that time small portions have been removed for spectrographic analysis and comparison with other bullets and bullet fragments.
Mr. Specter. Has that comparison been made with a whole bullet heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 399 which in other proceedings has been identified as the bullet from the Connally stretcher?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; the comparison was made by comparing Exhibit 399 with a bullet fragment found in the front seat of the Presidential limousine and then comparing that fragment with these fragments from the rear seat of the automobile.
Mr. Specter. For identification purposes, has that fragment from the front seat been heretofore identified during your prior testimony?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; it has. It bears Commission No. 567.
Mr. Specter. Now, what did the comparative examination then disclose as among Commission Exhibits 399, 567, and 840?
Mr. Frazier. That examination was performed by a spectrographer, John F. Gallagher, and I do not have the results of his examinations here, although I did ascertain that it was determined that the lead fragments were similar in composition.
Mr. Specter. So that they could have come from, so that the fragments designated 840 could have come from the same bullet as fragment designated 567?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Were the tests sufficient to indicate conclusively whether fragments 840 did come from the fragment designated as 567?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir.
Mr. Specter. Did you personally find any other fragments in the President's car during the course of your examination?
Mr. Frazier. No; I did not.
Mr. Specter. Now, where, according to information provided to you then, was the fragment designated Commission Exhibit 567 found?
Mr. Frazier. That was found by the Secret Service upon their examination of the limousine here in Washington when it first arrived from Dallas, and Commission No. 567 was delivered by Deputy Chief Paul Paterni and by a White House detail chief, Floyd M. Boring, to a liaison agent of the FBI, Orrin Bartlett, who delivered them to me in the laboratory at 11:50 p.m., on November 22, 1963.
Mr. Specter. Does that constitute the total chain of possession then from the finder with the Secret Service into your hands, as reflected on the records of the FBI?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Was there another fragment, was there any other fragment found in the front seat of the car?
Mr. Frazier. Yes. Alongside the right side of the front seat, Commission Exhibit No. 569, which is the base portion of the jacket of a bullet, was found, and handled in identical manner to the Exhibit 567.
Mr. Dulles. And the front seat is the seat which would be the driver's seat?
Mr. Frazier. Yes.
Mr. Dulles. And the Secret Service man on his right, I believe?
Mr. Specter. Mr. Kellerman.
Mr. Dulles. That was the seat from which this came?
Mr. Frazier. Commission Exhibit 567 was found on the seat right beside the driver, and Exhibit 569 was found on the floor beside the right side of the front seat.
Mr. Specter. The right side of the front seat, Mr. Dulles, as the prior testimony shows was occupied by Roy Kellerman and the driver was William Greer.
Mr. Dulles. Right. Thank you.
Mr. Specter. Would you state what the chain of possession was from the time of discovery of Exhibit 569 until the time it came into your possession, based on the records of the FBI, please, if you have those records available?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. It was delivered by Secret Service Deputy Chief Paul Paterni, and SAC of the White House detail Floyd M. Boring of the Secret Service again, to Special Agent Orrin Bartlett of the FBI who delivered it to me at 11:50 p.m. on November 22, 1963.
Mr. Specter. Are the records which you have just referred to relating to the chain of possession of Exhibits 567 and 569 maintained by you in the normal course of your duties as an examiner of those items?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Mr. Frazier, is it possible for the fragments identified in Commission Exhibit 840 to have come from the whole bullet heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 399?
Mr. Frazier. I would say that based on weight it would be highly improbable that that much weight could have come from the base of that bullet since its present weight is—its weight when I first received it was 158.6 grains.
Mr. Specter. Referring now to 399.
Mr. Frazier. Exhibit 399, and its original normal weight would be 160 to 161 grains, and those three metal fragments had a total of 2.1 grains as I recall—2.3 grains. So it is possible but not likely since there is only a very small part of the core of the bullet 399 missing.
Mr. Specter. Have you now described all of the bullet fragments which you found in the President's automobile?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Was it your job to analyze all of the bullets or bullet fragments which were found in the President's car?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; it was, except for the spectrographic analysis of the composition.
Mr. Specter. Have you now described all of the bullet fragments which were brought to you by anyone else and identified as having been found in the President's car?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; not this morning but at previous times during my testimony I have; yes.
Mr. Specter. But then there is on the record now all of the identification of the metallic or bullet fragments found in connection with your examination of the President's car or which were examined by you after having been found by someone else?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir. There is one other, it is not a metal particle but it is a residue of metal on the inside of the windshield.
Mr. Specter. Aside from that residue of the windshield which I am going to come to now, have we placed on the record a description of all of the bullets or bullet fragments?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Now——
Mr. Dulles. Just one moment. You mean bullet fragments related to the car or bullet fragments found anywhere?
Mr. Specter. Related to the President's automobile.
Mr. Frazier. Yes; you have.
Mr. Specter. Did you have occasion then to examine the windshield of the Presidential limousine?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; I did.
Mr. Specter. What did that examination disclose?
Mr. Frazier. On the inside surface of the windshield there was a deposit of lead. This deposit was located when you look at the inside surface of the windshield, 13½ inches down from the top, 23 inches from the left-hand side or driver's side of the windshield, and was immediately in front of a small pattern of star-shaped cracks which appeared in the outer layer of the laminated windshield.
Mr. Dulles. What do you mean by the "outer layer of the laminated windshield"?
Mr. Frazier. The windshield is composed of two layers with a very thin layer of plastic in between which bonds them together in the form of safety glass. The inside layer of the glass was not broken, but the outside layer immediately on the outside of the lead residue had a very small pattern of cracks and there was a very minute particle of glass missing from the outside surface.
Mr. Dulles. And the outside surface was the surface away from where the occupants were sitting?
Mr. Frazier. That is correct; yes.
Mr. Dulles. And the inside surface was the surface nearest the occupants?
Mr. Frazier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. What do those characteristics indicate as to which side of the windshield was struck?
Mr. Frazier. It indicates that it could only have been struck on the inside surface. It could not have been struck on the outside surface because of the manner in which the glass broke and further because of the lead residue on the inside surface. The cracks appear in the outer layer of the glass because the glass is bent outward at the time of impact which stretches the outer layer of the glass to the point where these small radial or wagon spoke-wagon wheel spoke-type cracks appear on the outer surface.
Mr. Dulles. So the pressure must have come from the inside and not from the outside against the glass?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. Dulles. As far as the car is concerned from the back to the front?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles. Not from outside against the glass—from the front against the glass.
Mr. Frazier. That is right.
Mr. Specter. Was a comparison made of the lead residues on the inside of the windshield with any of the bullet fragments recovered about which you have heretofore testified?
Mr. Frazier. Yes. They were compared with the bullet fragment found on the front seat, which in turn was compared with Commission 399. The lead was found to be similar in composition. However, that examination in detail was made by a spectrographer, Special Agent John F. Gallagher.
Mr. Specter. Was that examination made in the regular course of examining procedures by the FBI?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. And was that information made available to you through the normal conference procedures among FBI examiners?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir. He submitted his report to me and I prepared the formal report of the entire examination.
Mr. Specter. Are his report and your formal report a part of the permanent record of the FBI then?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 350 which has heretofore been identified as a picture of the windshield of the Presidential limousine and I ask you if that is the crack about which you have just testified?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; it is. This Exhibit 350 is a photograph which I took on the 23d of November, showing a view from the front toward the rear of the Presidential limousine and showing the crack in the glass and the lead residue on the inside surface.
Mr. Specter. Would you produce at this time the lead residue obtained by you from that inside surface, please? May it please the Commission, I would like to mark this as Commission Exhibit 841 and move for its admission into evidence at this time.
Mr. Dulles. It shall be admitted into evidence.
(Commission Exhibit No. 841 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. Dulles. May I just ask a question of you, Mr. Specter, and possibly of the witness.
I assume that the windshield we are now discussing is the windshield that was exhibited to the Commission several weeks ago and which members of the Commission examined?
Mr. Specter. It was, Mr. Dulles, and we can establish that, of record, through another Commission Exhibit which is 351, which was the number given to the windshield and we have a reproduction here through the photograph.
Mr. Dulles. You don't have the windshield here today, though?
Mr. Specter. No, we do not.
Mr. Dulles. It would be the same windshield that the Commission saw.
Mr. Specter. We can establish it through the witness, too.
Mr. Frazier, for that purpose can you identify what is depicted in a photograph heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 351?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; this is a photograph of the very small pattern of cracks in the windshield which was on the Presidential limousine at the time I examined it, and which I also later examined in the FBI laboratory.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Specter. Mr. Frazier, have you now described all of your findings on the windshield of the Presidential limousine?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; that is concerning the glass itself and not the molding around the windshield.
Mr. Specter. Will you then move to the molding around the windshield and state what, if anything, you found there?
Mr. Frazier. On the strip of chrome which goes across the top of the windshield and again on the passenger side of the windshield or the inside surface, I found a dent in the chrome which had been caused by some projectile which struck the chrome on the inside surface.
Mr. Specter. Was there one dent or more than one dent or what?
Mr. Frazier. One dent.
Mr. Specter. Will you identify what is depicted by a photograph heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit 349?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; this is a photograph which I took of this dent at that time, showing the damaged chrome, just to the right of the rearview mirror support at the top of the windshield.
Mr. Specter. Did your examination of the President's limousine disclose any other holes or markings which could have conceivably been caused by a bullet striking the automobile or any part of the automobile?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir.
Mr. Dulles. I wonder if I could go back just a moment to the indentation in the chrome around the windshield at the top of the windshield, but on the inside, could that have been caused by a fragment of a bullet?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, it very easily could have. It would not have been caused, for instance, by a bullet which was traveling at its full velocity from a rifle, but merely from a fragment traveling at fairly high velocity which struck the inside surface of the chrome.
Mr. Dulles. Could that have been caused by any of the fragments that you have identified as having been found on the front seat or near the front seat of the car?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; I believe it could have by either, in fact, of the two fragments of rifle bullets found in the front seat.
Mr. Dulles. Thank you.
Mr. Specter. Mr. Frazier, assume certain facts to be true for purposes of expressing an opinion on a hypothetical situation, to wit: that President Kennedy was struck by a 6.5 millimeter bullet which passed through his body entering on the rear portion of his neck 14 centimeters to the left of his right acromion process and 14 centimeters below his mastoid process, with a striking velocity of approximately 1,904 feet per second, and exited after passing through a fascia channel in his body, through the lower anterior third of his neck with an exit velocity of approximately 1,772 to 1,779 feet per second; and that bullet had then traveled from the point where it exited from his neck and struck the front windshield in some manner. What effect would that have had on the front windshield and the subsequent flight of the missile?
Mr. Frazier. It would have shattered the front windshield. It would have caused a very large, relatively large hole, approximately three-eighths to an inch in diameter with radiating cracks extending outward into the glass for several inches, even to the side of the glass.
Mr. Dulles. It would have penetrated the windshield?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Would the missile then have proceeded in a forward direction?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; it would.
Mr. Specter. Do you have an opinion as to how far it would have gone?
Mr. Frazier. Until it struck some other object in the area of approximately a mile.
Mr. Specter. Now assume the same sequence with respect to exit velocity from the point of the President's neck at the same rate of 1,772 to 1,798 feet per second, and assume still further that the bullet had, the whole bullet had, struck the metal framing which you have heretofore described and identified. What effect would that have had on the metal framing?
Mr. Frazier. It would have torn a hole in the chrome, penetrated the framing both inside and outside of the car. I can only assume, since I haven't tested the metal of that particular car, I would assume that the bullet would completely penetrate both the chrome, the metal supporting the chrome, on the inside, and the body metal on the outside which supports the windshield of the car.
Mr. Specter. Now, assume the same set of factors as to the exit velocity from the President's neck. What effect would that bullet have had on any other portion of the automobile which it might have struck in the continuation of its flight?
Mr. Frazier. In my opinion it would have penetrated any other metal surface and, of course, any upholstery surface depending on the nature of the material as to how deep it would penetrate or how many successive layers it may have penetrated.
Mr. Specter. Was there any evidence in any portion of the car that the automobile was struck by a bullet which exited from the President's neck under the circumstances which I have just asked you to assume?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. Specter. And had there been any such evidence would your examination of the automobile have uncovered such an indication or such evidence?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; I feel that it would have.
Mr. Specter. Was your examination a thorough examination of all aspects of the interior of the automobile?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; for our purpose. However, we did not tear out all of the rugs on the floor, for instance. We examined the rugs carefully for holes, for bullet furroughs, for fragments. We examined the nap of the rug, in the actual nap of the rug, for fragments and bullet holes. We pulled the rug back as far as we could turn it back and even tore the glue or adhesive material loose around the cracks at the edges of the rug so we could observe the cracks to see whether they had been enlarged, and we examined all of the upholstery covering, on the back of the front seat, on the doors, and in the rear seat compartment, the jump seats, the actual rear seat, the back of the rear seat, and we examined the front seat in a similar manner, and we found no bullet holes or other bullet impact areas, other than the one on the inside of the windshield and the dent inside the windshield chrome.
Mr. Specter. Had any of those portions of the automobile been struck by the bullet exiting from the President's neck, which I have described hypothetically for you, would you have found some evidence of striking?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles. When was this examination made?
Mr. Frazier. Between 2 and 4:30 a.m. on November 23, 1963.
Mr. Dulles. That was about 10 hours, 12 hours after the assassination?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; 14 to 16 hours.
Mr. Dulles. Fourteen to sixteen hours.
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles. May I ask, do you know in whose custody the automobile was prior to your examination from the time it was shipped on the airplane?
Mr. Frazier. When I arrived there were two Secret Service men present but I do not recall their names. They were introduced to me, and they were there during the entire examination but I don't recall their actual names. The car was under guard in the Secret Service garage in Washington, D.C.
Other than that I do not know.
Mr. Dulles. Was this a joint examination by you and by the Secret Service or was the examination made by the FBI?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; by the FBI at the request of the Secret Service who had already examined the interior of the car for personal effects and other items.
Mr. Dulles. Did they certify to you or advise you that the car had been under their custody during this 14-to 16-hour period?
Mr. Frazier. I don't recall whether they actually stated that. What they stated was that the car had immediately been flown to Washington and placed in this garage and kept under surveillance the entire time.
Mr. Dulles. Thank you.
Mr. Specter. Was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of Governor Connally?
Mr. Frazier. It was identified to me as having come from the arm of Governor Connally.
Mr. Specter. Will you produce that fragment at this time, please?
Mr. Frazier. This one does not have a Commission number as yet.
Mr. Specter. May it please the Commission, I would like to have this fragment marked as Commission Exhibit 842.
(Commission Exhibit No. 842 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. Specter. Now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as Q9 for FBI record purposes, and now marked as Commission Exhibit No. 842, will you describe that fragment for us, please?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when I first examined it in the laboratory. It is a piece of lead, and could have been a part of a bullet or a core of a bullet.
However, it lacks any physical characteristics which would permit stating whether or not it actually originated from a bullet.
Mr. Specter. Are its physical characteristics consistent with having come from Commission Exhibit 399?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; it could have.
Mr. Specter. Are they consistent with that fragment identified as Commission Exhibit No. 842, as having come from fragment identified as Commission Exhibit 567?
Mr. Frazier. Which is 567?
Mr. Specter. 567 is the one which was found on the front seat.
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; it could have.
Mr. Specter. Were the characteristics of the fragment identified as Commission Exhibit 842 consistent with having come from the fragment heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 569?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Would you set forth from the records of the FBI, if you have those before you, the chain of possession of the fragment identified as Commission Exhibit 842, please?
Mr. Frazier. Commission Exhibit 842, that is the one from Governor Connally's arm, was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 23, 1963, by Special Agent Vincent E. Drain of the Dallas Office of the FBI, who stated he had secured this item from Capt. Will Fritz of the Dallas Police Department.
I do not know where Captain Fritz obtained it.
Mr. Specter. Referring back for just a moment to the coat identified as that worn by Governor Connally, Mr. Frazier, was there any observable angle of elevation or declination from the back side of the Governor's coat to the front side of the Governor's coat?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; there was, approximately a 35-degree downward angle.
Mr. Specter. Measuring from——
Mr. Frazier. That is——
Mr. Specter. Back to front or front to back?
Mr. Frazier. From back towards the front.
Mr. Specter. How about the same question as to the Governor's shirt?
Mr. Frazier. I would say it was approximately the same angle or slightly less. I think we measured approximately 30 degrees.
Mr. Specter. Was that from the front to back or from the back to front of the Governor's shirt?
Mr. Frazier. That would be from the back towards the front. Downward from back towards the front.
Mr. Specter. Mr. Dulles, those questions complete the ones which we have to ask, sir.
Mr. Frazier, one additional question: Do you have any knowledge through any source whatsoever of any bullets or bullet fragments found anywhere in the vicinity of the assassination other than those which you have already testified to, which were in the car, or the whole bullet from the Connally stretcher or the fragments from Governor Connally's wrist?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; I have never heard of any nor have any been submitted to me.
Mr. Specter. During the regular processing of the FBI examination in this case, would all such bullets or bullet fragments be brought to you for examination in accordance with your assignment to this matter generally?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; they would.
Mr. Specter. Were any metallic fragments brought to you which were purported to have been found in the head of President Kennedy?
Mr. Dulles. Or body?
Mr. Specter. Or body of President Kennedy?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; they were.
On November 23, 1963, at 1:35 a.m., the two metal fragments in this container were delivered to me in the FBI laboratory by Special Agent James W. Sibert, and Special Agent Francis O'Neill of the Baltimore office of the FBI who stated they had obtained these in the autopsy room at the Naval Hospital near Washington, D.C., where they were present when they were removed from the head of President Kennedy.
Mr. Specter. Is there any specification as to the portion of the President's head from which they were removed?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; they told me that there had been numerous particles in the head but only these two had been removed, the others being very small.
Mr. Specter. May it please the Commission I would like to have those marked and admitted into evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 843.
Mr. Dulles. It shall be so marked and admitted under those numbers.
(Commission Exhibit No. 843 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. Specter. In the event we have not already had 842 admitted into evidence, I move, Mr. Dulles, for the admission into evidence of 842 which was the fragment from Governor Connally's arm.
Mr. Dulles. That shall be admitted.
Mr. Specter. Moving back to 843 will you describe those fragments indicating their weight and general composition?
Mr. Frazier. These fragments consisted of two pieces of lead, one weighed 1.65 grains. The other weighed .15 grain. They were examined spectrographically so their present weight would be somewhat less since a very small amount would be needed for spectrographic analysis.
Mr. Specter. Was a comparison made between or among these two fragments with the other metal from the bullets heretofore identified as Commission Exhibits 399, 567, 569, 840, and 842?
Mr. Frazier. Yes; they were.
Mr. Specter. What did that examination disclose?
Mr. Frazier. Possibly my numbers do not agree with those you have. These two particles from the President's head were compared with the lead of Exhibit 842.
Mr. Specter. Which is the fragment from the arm of Governor Connally?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; they were compared with the lead scraping from the inside of the windshield.
Mr. Specter. Which is Exhibit 841.
Mr. Frazier. And with the three lead fragments found on the rear floorboard carpet of the limousine.
Mr. Specter. Which is Exhibit 840.
Mr. Frazier. And they were found to be similar in metallic composition.
Mr. Specter. Can you state with any more certainty——
Mr. Frazier. Excuse me, one thing. These, as a group, were compared with the bullet fragment, Commission Exhibit 567, which was found on the front seat of the automobile, which also was found to be similar in metallic composition.
Mr. Specter. Is it possible to state with any more certainty whether or not any of those fragments came from the same bullet?
Mr. Frazier. Not definitely, no; only that they are of similar lead composition.
Mr. Specter. Have you now described fully all of the relevant characteristics of the fragments identified as Commission Exhibit 843?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter. Are there any other bullets or bullet fragment or metallic substances of any sort connected with this case in any way which you have examined which you have not already testified to here today or on your prior appearance?
Mr. Frazier. No, sir; that is all of them.
Mr. Dulles. Is there anything further?
Mr. Specter. No.
Mr. Dulles. Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier.
The Commission will reconvene at 2:30.
(Whereupon, at 1:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF DR. ALFRED G. OLIVIER
The President's Commission reconvened at 3 p.m.
The Chairman. The Commission will come to order.
Mr. Specter, has the doctor been sworn yet?
Mr. Specter. No, sir; he has not.
The Chairman. Doctor, would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in the matter before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. Olivier. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You may be seated.
Mr. Specter. State your full name for the record.
Dr. Olivier. Dr. Alfred G. Olivier.
Mr. Specter. What is your occupation or profession?
Dr. Olivier. A supervisory research veterinarian and I work for the Department of the Army at Edgewood Arsenal, Md.
Mr. Specter. Would you describe the nature of your duties at that arsenal, please?
Dr. Olivier. Investigating the wound ballistics of various bullets and other military missiles.
Mr. Specter. Would you describe the general nature of the tests which are carried on at Edgewood Arsenal?
Dr. Olivier. For example, with a bullet we run tissue studies getting the retardation of the bullet through the tissues, the penetration, various characteristics of it. We use as good tissue simulant 20 percent gelatin. This has a drag coefficient of muscle tissue and makes an excellent homogenous medium to study the action of the bullet. We also use animal parts and parts of cadavers where necessary to determine the characteristics of these things.
Mr. Specter. Would you set forth your educational background briefly, please?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I did 2 years of preveterinary work at the University of New Hampshire and 4 years of veterinary school at the University of Pennsylvania, and I hold a degree doctor of veterinary medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.
Mr. Specter. In what year did you complete your educational work?
Dr. Olivier. 1953.
Mr. Specter. Would you outline your experience in the field subsequent to 1953?
Dr. Olivier. In this field?
Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.
Dr. Olivier. I came to Edgewood Arsenal, then the Army Chemical Center, in 1957, and originally to work, take charge of the animal colonies but immediately I got interested in the research and started working in the field of wound ballistics and have been in it ever since, and am presently Chief of the Wound Ballistics Branch.
Mr. Specter. Have you been in charge of a series of tests performed to determine certain wound ballistics on circumstances analogous to the underlying facts on wounds inflicted upon President Kennedy and Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I have.
Mr. Specter. And in the course of those tests what weapon was used?
Dr. Olivier. It was identified as Commission Exhibit 139. It was a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.
Mr. Specter. Did the designation, Commission Exhibit No. 139, appear on the body of that rifle?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; it did.
Mr. Specter. What type of bullets were used in the tests which you performed?
Dr. Olivier. We used the Western ammunition, Western being a division of Olin Industries, Winchester Western, it was lot 6,000 to 6.5 mm. round. Has a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,160 feet per second.
Mr. Specter. And were those bullets obtained by you upon information provided to you by the Commission's staff as to the identity of the bullets which were believed to have been used during the assassination?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I first got the identity from the people at Aberdeen Proving Grounds and then I further checked with the Commission to see if that was right before ordering this type of ammunition.
Mr. Specter. And where were those bullets obtained from?
Dr. Olivier. I obtained 100 rounds from Remington at Bridgeport. Conn., and Dr. Dziemian obtained another 160 rounds, I believe, from Winchester in New Haven.
Mr. Specter. Did you perform certain tests to determine the wound ballistics and include in that the penetration power of the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, which you referred to, firing the Western Cartridge Co. bullet by comparison with other types of bullets?
Dr. Olivier. We didn't fire any of the others at the same time. These had been fired previously. We have all these records for comparison.
Mr. Specter. Was the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle then fired for comparison purposes with the other bullets where you already had your experience?
Dr. Olivier. No; it was fired for the purposes for which—to try to shed some light on say the factors leading to the assassination and all, not for comparison with the other bullets.
Mr. Specter. I now show you a photograph which is marked as Commission Exhibit No. 844, may it please the Commission, and ask you if this photograph was prepared by you in conjunction with the study on the Mannlicher-Carcano and the Western Cartridge Co. bullet?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; it was.
Mr. Specter. Would you explain to the Commission what that photograph depicts?
Dr. Olivier. Actually, the bullet passed through two gelatin blocks. This was done as part of an energy study to see the amount of energy imparted to the block of gelatin taking a high-speed motion picture. These blocks show a record of the permanent cavity left in the gelatin. This is not necessarily the total penetration. This bullet when it comes out of the second block still has quite a bit of penetrating power. Quite a few of these bullets would go into a dirt bank and imbed themselves so deeply that they couldn't be recovered.
Mr. Specter. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 845 which is a photograph, and ask you to state for the record what that photograph represents?
Dr. Olivier. This has been adopted as standard military ammunition of the U.S. Army. It is known as the NATO round. It is M-80 ball fired in the M-14 rifle. It has a different—it is a full jacketed military bullet but has a different point, what they call a no jag point, a sharp point. It has tumbling characteristics. When it goes in a certain block it tumbles and does the same in the body. It is more efficient in producing wounds than the bullet under study.
Mr. Specter. How do the impact, penetration, and other characteristics of the bullet depicted in 845 compare with the Western Cartridge Co. bullet fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano in 844?
Dr. Olivier. It has better wounding potential due to the quicker tumbling but it would not have as good penetrating ability, when it starts tumbling and releasing all that energy doing all that damage it comes to a stop in a shorter distance.
Mr. Specter. Would the Western bullet be characterized as having the qualities of a more stable bullet?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; it would. You mean in the target?
Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. The stability in the air would be the same for any missile, would it not?
Dr. Olivier. To be a good bullet they should be stable in air in order to hit what you are aiming at, yes.
Mr. Specter. Then would the characteristics of stability in the air be the same for either of the two bullets you have heretofore referred to?
Dr. Olivier. Essentially so.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 846 and ask you to state what that depicts?
Dr. Olivier. This is a 257 Winchester Roberts soft nose hunting bullet. This one pictured fired from right to left instead of left to right and the bullet didn't even go out of the block. It deforms almost immediately on entering the block and releases its energy rather rapidly. This type of ammunition is illegal for military use. We are just studying the wounding characteristics of various bullets, but this is not a military bullet.
Mr. Specter. How does it compare with the Western bullet?
Dr. Olivier. It would be better for wounding, better for hunting purposes. But as I said, it isn't acceptable as a military bullet.
Mr. Specter. How does it compare with respect to penetration power?
Dr. Olivier. Much less than the Mannlicher-Carcano.
Mr. Specter. In the normal course of the work that you perform for the U.S. Army at Edgewood Arsenal, do you have occasion to simulate substances for testing purposes on determining the path of a bullet through the human body?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; we do use animal tissues or gelatin as simulants for tissues of the human body.
Mr. Specter. Has the autopsy report on President John F. Kennedy been made available to you for your review?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; it has.
Mr. Specter. And subsequent to your review of that report, did you make an effort to simulate the body tissue through which the bullet is reported to have passed through the President in accordance with the report of the autopsy surgeon; entering on the rear of his neck, 14 cm. below the mastoid process and 14 cm. to the left of the right acromion process, passing through a fascia channel, striking the trachea and exiting through the lower anterior of the neck?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I did.
Mr. Specter. What substance did you prepare to simulate that portion of the President's body?
Dr. Olivier. We determined the distance on various people by locating this anatomical region and using people of various sizes we found that regardless of general body build, the distance penetrated was around 13½ to 14½ cm.
As a consequence, I used gelatin blocks 20 percent gelatin cut at 13½ cm. lengths and also used horsemeat and goatmeat placed in a box so that—this was a little harder to get the exact length but that varied between 13½ and 14½ cm. of muscle tissue.
Mr. Specter. Did that simulate, then, the portion of the President's body through which the bullet is reported to have passed, as closely as you could for your testing purposes?
Dr. Olivier. As closely as we could for these test purposes; yes.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit No. 847 and ask you to testify as to what that depicts?
Dr. Olivier. This is a box containing—I couldn't say looking at it whether it is the horsemeat or the goatmeat but one of the two. The distance traveled through that meat would be 13½ to 14½ centimeters. It is also covered with clothing and clipped goatskin on the entrance and exit sides, and behind that are the screens for measuring the exit velocity. We had already determined the striking velocity by firing I believe it was—I have it right here if you want——
Mr. Specter. Before you proceed to that, describe the type of screens which are shown in the picture which were used to measure exit velocity, if you please?
Dr. Olivier. Yes. These screens are known as the break-type screen. They are silver imprinted on paper and when the bullet passes through it breaks the current. When it passes through the first screen it breaks the current activating a chronograph, counting chronograph. When it passes through the second screen it stops. This is over a known distance, and so the time that it took to pass between the first and the second will give you the average velocity halfway between the two screens.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 848 and ask you to describe what that shows?
Dr. Olivier. This was a similar setup used for firing through gelatin. It had clothing and skin over the entrance side only. If it had been placed on the other side it would have just flown off.
Mr. Specter. And that is similar to that depicted in 846?
Dr. Olivier. Essentially; yes.
Mr. Specter. Except that it is——
Dr. Olivier. Gelatin instead of the tissues.
Mr. Specter. Now at what range was the firing performed on the gelatin, goatmeat and horsemeat?
Dr. Olivier. This firing was done at a 60-yard range.
Mr. Specter. And what gun was used?
Dr. Olivier. The 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano that was marked Commission Exhibit 139.
Mr. Specter. And what bullets were used?
Dr. Olivier. The Western ammunition lot 6,000, 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano.
Mr. Specter. And was there any substance placed over the gelatin, horsemeat and goatmeat?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; over the gelatin we had clothing; had a suit, shirt and undershirt, and underneath that a clipped goatskin. The same thing was over the meat, and on the other side of the meat was also clipped goatskin.
Mr. Specter. Would there be any significant difference to the test by leaving out the undershirt if the President had not worn an undershirt?
Dr. Olivier. No.
Mr. Specter. So that the circumstance was simulated with the actual type clothing and a protective skin over the substance just as realistically as you could make it?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. What measurement was obtained as to the entrance velocity of the bullet at the distance of 60 yards which you described?
Dr. Olivier. The striking velocity at an average of three shots was 1,904 feet per second.
Mr. Specter. And what was the average exit velocity on each of the substances used?
Dr. Olivier. For the gelatin the average exit velocity was 1,779 feet per second. The horsemeat, the average exit velocity was 1,798 feet per second. And the goatmeat the average exit velocity was 1,772 feet per second.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 849 and ask you what that picture represents?
Dr. Olivier. This is one of the gelatin blocks used in that test. It shows the type of track left by the bullet passing through it. That bullet is very stable. Passing through the body and muscle, it would make a similar type wound. Of course, you couldn't observe it that nicely.
Mr. Specter. Would you describe that as being a straight line?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 850 and ask you what that represents?
Dr. Olivier. These are pieces of clipped goatskin, clipped very shortly. There is still some hair on it. These were placed, these particular ones were placed over the tissues. This would be placed over the entrance side of the animal.
Mr. Specter. When you say "this," you are referring to a piece of goatskin which is marked "enter"?
Dr. Olivier. Marked "enter." The one marked "exit" was placed on the far side of the tissues and the bullet passed through that after it came out of the tissues.
Mr. Specter. For the record, will you describe the characteristics, which are shown on the goatskin at the point of entry, please?
Dr. Olivier. At the point of entry the wound holes through the skin are for all purposes round. On the exit side they are more elongated, two of them in particular are a little more elongated. The bullet had started to become slightly unstable coming out.
Mr. Specter. And how about the third or lower bullet on the skin designated exit?
Dr. Olivier. That hole appears as more stable than the other two. In all three cases the bullet is still pretty stable. The gelatin blocks, there were gelatin blocks placed behind these things too, and for all practical purposes, the tracks through them still indicated a stable bullet.
Mr. Specter. Are there any other conclusions which you would care to add to those which you have already indicated, resulting from the tests you have heretofore described?
Dr. Olivier. Well, it means that the bullet that passed through the President's neck had lost very little of its wounding potential and was capable of doing a great deal of damage in penetrating. I might mention one thing showing how great its penetrating ability was. That say on one of the gelatin shots, it went through a total, counting the gelatin block, it went through plus the backing up blocks of gelatin, it went through a total of 72½ centimeters of gelatin, was still traveling and buried itself in a mound of earth so it has terrific penetrating ability. This means that had the bullet that passed through the President's neck hit in the car or anywhere you would have seen evidence, a good deal of evidence.
Mr. Specter. Dr. Olivier, in the regular course of your work for the U.S. Army, do you have occasion to perform tests on animal materials where the characteristics of those animals materials are sufficiently similar to human bodies to make a determination of the effect of the bullet wounds in human bodies?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I do.
Mr. Specter. And did you have occasion to make a test on goat material in connection with the experiments which you ran?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. Are you familiar with the wounds inflicted on Governor Connally on November 22, 1963?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; from reading the surgeon's report and also from talking to Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shaw.
Mr. Specter. Did you have access to the medical reports of Parkland Hospital concerning the wounds of Governor Connally in all respects?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. And did you have occasion to discuss those wounds in great detail with Dr. Shaw and Dr. Gregory when they were present in Washington, D.C. on April 21, 1964, preparatory to their testifying before this Commission?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I did.
Mr. Specter. What was the nature of the wound on Governor Connally's back?
Dr. Olivier. The surgeon's report described it as about 3 centimeters long, its longest dimension, and it is hard for me to remember reading it or discussing it with him but I did both. Apparently it was a jagged wound. He said a wound like this consists of two things, usually a defect in the epidermis and a central hole which is small, and he could put his finger in it so it was a fairly large wound.
Mr. Specter. What was the path of the bullet in a general way, based on the information provided to you concerning Governor Connally's wound in the back?
Dr. Olivier. Apparently it passed along the rib. I don't recall which rib it was but passed the fifth rib, passed along this rib causing a fracture that I believe removed about 10 centimeters of the rib through fragments through the pleura, lacerating the lung. I asked Dr. Shaw directly whether he thought the bullet had gone through the pleural cavity and he said he didn't believe that it had, that the damage was done by the rib fragments. Then the bullet exited as described somewhat below the right nipple.
Mr. Specter. Did you perform a test on goat substance to endeavor to measure the reduction in velocity of a missile similar to the one which passed through Governor Connally?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I did.
Mr. Specter. Why was goat substance selected for that purpose in the testing procedure?
Dr. Olivier. We usually use this in our work so we are familiar with it. I am not saying it is the only substance that could be used, but we were not using any unknown procedures or any procedures that we hadn't used already.
Mr. Specter. Does it closely simulate the nature of a wound in the human body?
Dr. Olivier. In this particular instance it did.
Mr. Specter. Was the wound inflicted on the goat, then, subjected to X-ray analysis for the purpose of determining the precise nature of the wound and for comparison purposes with that wound——
Dr. Olivier. Yes; it was.
Mr. Specter. Inflicted on Connally?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; it was.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you an X-ray marked Commission Exhibit 851 and ask you to state what that shows?
Dr. Olivier. It shows a fractured rib. From this you wouldn't be able to—well, if you were a better radiologist than I was, you might be able to tell which one, but it was the eighth left rib. It shows a comminuted fracture extending some distance along the rib.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 852, which is a photograph, and ask you to testify as to what that depicts, please?
Dr. Olivier. This is a photograph taken from the same X-ray again showing the comminuted fracture of the eighth left rib.
Mr. Specter. And is that a photograph then of the X-ray designated Commission Exhibit 851?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; it is.
Mr. Specter. Did you have an opportunity to observe personally the X-rays showing the wound on Governor Connally's rib?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I did.
Mr. Specter. And how do those X-rays compare with the wound inflicted as depicted in Exhibits 851 and 852?
Dr. Olivier. They are very similar.
Mr. Specter. When the wounds were inflicted, as depicted in 851 and 852, what weapon was used?
Dr. Olivier. This was again the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.
Mr. Specter. And what bullets were used?
Dr. Olivier. The 6.5 millimeter Western ammunition lot 6,000.
Mr. Specter. And what distance was utilized?
Dr. Olivier. On the goat the distance was 70 yards.
Mr. Specter. And was there any covering over the goat?
Dr. Olivier. Yes. There was a suit, shirt, and undershirt.
Mr. Specter. What was the entrance velocity of the bullet?
Dr. Olivier. Striking velocity for an average of 11 shots was 1,929 feet per second.
Mr. Specter. And what was the exit velocity?
Dr. Olivier. The exit velocity was 1,664 feet per second.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a box containing a bullet, which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 853, and ask you if you have ever seen that bullet before?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I have.
Mr. Specter. And under what circumstances have you previously seen that bullet?
Dr. Olivier. This was the bullet that was fired through the goat. It went through the velocity screens into some cotton waste, dropped out of the bottom of that and was lying on the floor. It was picked up immediately afterwards still warm, so we knew it was the bullet that had fired that particular shot.
Mr. Specter. Was that fired through the goat depicted in the photographs and X-ray, 851 and 852?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; that was the goat.
Mr. Specter. Would you describe for the record, verbally please, the characteristics of that bullet?
Dr. Olivier. The bullet has been quite flattened. The lead core is extruding somewhat from the rear. We weighed the bullet. It weighs 158.8 grains.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which has been heretofore in Commission proceedings identified as the bullet found on the stretcher of Governor Connally, and ask if you have had an opportunity to compare 399 with 853?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I have.
Mr. Specter. And what did you find on that comparison?
Dr. Olivier. The bullet recovered on the stretcher has not been flattened as much, but there is a suggestion of flattening there from a somewhat similar occurrence. Also, the lead core has extruded from the rear in the same fashion, and it appears that some of it has even broken from the rear.
Mr. Specter. Is there some flattening on both of those bullets in approximately the same areas toward the rear of the missiles?
Dr. Olivier. In the bullet, our particular bullet is flattened the whole length, but you say towards the rear?
Mr. Specter. You say our bullet; you mean 853?
Dr. Olivier. Yes, 853 is flattened. No. 399 is flattened more towards the rear.
Mr. Specter. Are there any other conclusions which you have to add to the tests performed on the goat?
Dr. Olivier. Well, again in this test it demonstrates that the bullet that was stable when it struck in this fashion again lost very little velocity in going through that much goat tissue.
Incidentally, the amount of goat tissue it traversed was probably somewhat less than the Governor, but in any case it indicates the bullet would have had a lot of remaining velocity and could have done a lot of damage.
Another thing that hasn't been brought up is the velocity screen immediately behind the goat, the imprint of the bullet left on it was almost the length of the bullet.
Mr. Specter. What does that indicate?
Dr. Olivier. This indicates that the bullet was now no longer traveling straight but either traveling sideways or tumbling end over end at the time it hit the screen.
Mr. Specter. And that was after the point of exit from the goat?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. Are there any other conclusions which you found from the studies on the goat?
Dr. Olivier. No, I believe that is all I can think of right at this moment.
Mr. Specter. In the regular course of your work for the U.S. Army, do you have occasion to perform tests on parts of human cadavers to determine the effects of bullets on human beings?
Dr. Olivier. Yes, I do.
Mr. Specter. And was a series of tests performed under your supervision on the portions of human cadavers simulated to the wound inflicted on the wrist of Governor Connally?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. Were you familiar with the nature of the wound on Governor Connally's wrist prior to performing those tests?
Dr. Olivier. Yes, I was.
Mr. Specter. What was the source of your information on those wounds?
Dr. Olivier. I had read the surgeon's report, also talked with Dr. Gregory, the surgeon who had done the surgery, and had looked at the X-rays.
Mr. Specter. Had you had an opportunity to discuss the wounds with Dr. Gregory and view the X-rays taken at Parkland Hospital, here in the Commission headquarters?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I did.
Mr. Specter. On April 21, 1964?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you an X-ray marked as Commission Exhibit 854, and ask you what that depicts?
Dr. Olivier. This is a comminuted fracture of the distal end of the radius of a human arm.
Mr. Specter. And in what manner was that wound caused?
Dr. Olivier. It was caused by a bullet from the Commission Exhibit 139. This was again the 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western ammunition lot 6,000.
Mr. Specter. Fired at what distance?
Dr. Olivier. Fired at a distance of 70 yards.
Mr. Specter. And was there anything protecting the wrist at the time of impact?
Dr. Olivier. Not protection but there was again clothing, this time suit material or suit lining, at least suit material and shirt. I am not sure about the lining. I can tell you. I have it right here. Suit material, suit lining material, and shirt material.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit 855 and ask you what that represents?
Dr. Olivier. This is a photograph taken from the X-ray, Commission Exhibit 854.
Mr. Specter. Will you describe for the record the details of the injuries shown on 854 and 855, please?
Dr. Olivier. This is a comminuted fracture of the distal end of the radius. It was struck directly by the bullet. It passed through, not directly through but through at an oblique angle so that it entered more proximal on the dorsal side of the wrist and distal on the volar aspect.
Mr. Specter. How does the entry and exit compare with the wound on Governor Connally which you observed on the X-rays?
Dr. Olivier. In this particular instance to the best of my memory from looking at the X-rays, it is very close. It is about one of the best ones that we obtained.
Mr. Specter. Is there any definable difference at all?
Dr. Olivier. I couldn't determine any.
Mr. Specter. It is close, you say?
Dr. Olivier. Yes. If I had both X-rays in front of me if there was a difference I could determine it, but from memory I would say it was for all purposes identical.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a bullet in a case marked Commission Exhibit 856 and ask if you have ever seen that before?
Dr. Olivier. Yes. This is the bullet that caused the damage shown in Commission Exhibits Nos. 854 and 855.
Mr. Specter. Would you describe that bullet for the record, please?
Dr. Olivier. The nose of the bullet is quite flattened from striking the radius.
Mr. Specter. How does it compare, for example, with Commission Exhibit 399?
Dr. Olivier. It is not like it at all. I mean, Commission Exhibit 399 is not flattened on the end. This one is very severely flattened on the end.
Mr. Specter. What was the velocity of the missile at the time it struck the wrist depicted in 854 and 855?
Dr. Olivier. The average striking velocity was 1,858 feet per second.
Mr. Specter. Do you have the precise striking velocity of that one?
Dr. Olivier. No; I don't. We could not put velocity screen in front of the individual shots because it would have interfered with the gunner's view. So we took five shots and got an average striking velocity.
Mr. Specter. When you say five shots with an average striking velocity, those were at the delineated distance without striking anything on those particular shots?
Dr. Olivier. Right, and after establishing that velocity, then we went on to shoot the various arms.
Mr. Specter. And what was the exit velocity?
Dr. Olivier. On this particular one?
Mr. Specter. If you have it?
Dr. Olivier. Yes. Well, I don't know if I have that or not. We didn't get them in all because some of these things deflect. No, I have no exit velocity on this particular one.
Mr. Specter. What exit velocity did you get on the average?
Dr. Olivier. Average exit velocity was 1,776 feet per second. This was for an average of seven. We did 10. We obtained velocity on seven.
Mr. Specter. Would the average reduction be approximately the same, in your professional opinion, as to the bullet exiting from the wrist depicted in 854 and 855?
Dr. Olivier. Somewhat. Let me give you the extremes of our velocities. The highest one was 1,866 and the lowest was 1,664, so there was a 202-feet-per-second difference in the thing. Some of the cases bone was missed, in other cases glancing blows. But I would say it is a close approximation to what the exit velocity was on that particular one.
Mr. Specter. And what would the close approximation be, the average?
Dr. Olivier. The average.
Mr. Specter. Would you compare the damage, which was done to Governor Connally's wrist, as contrasted with the damage to the wrist depicted in 854 and 855?
Dr. Olivier. The damage in the wrist that you see in the X-ray on 854 and 855, the damage is greater than was done to the Governor's wrist. There is more severe comminution here.
Mr. Specter. How much more severe is the comminution?
Dr. Olivier. Considerably more. If I remember correctly in the X-rays of the Governor's wrist, I think there were only two or three fragments, if that many. Here we have many, many small fragments.
Mr. Specter. In your opinion, based on the tests which you have performed, was the damage inflicted on Governor Connally's wrist caused by a pristine bullet, a bullet fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle 6.5 missile which did not hit anything before it struck the Governor's wrist?
Dr. Olivier. I don't believe so. I don't believe his wrist was struck by a pristine bullet.
Mr. Specter. What is the reason for your conclusion on that?
Dr. Olivier. In this case I go by the size of the entrance wound and exit wound on the Governor's wrist. The entrance wound was on the dorsal surface, it was described by the surgeon as being much larger than the exit wound. He said he almost overlooked that on the volar aspect of the wrist.
In every instance we had a larger exit wound than an entrance wound firing with a pristine bullet apparently at the same angle at which it entered and exited the Governor's wrist.
Also, and I don't believe they were mixed up on which was entrance and exit. For one thing the clothing, you know, the surgeon found pieces of clothing and the other thing the human anatomy is such that I don't believe it would enter through the volar aspect and out the top.
So I am pretty sure that the Governor's wrist was not hit by a pristine or a stable bullet.
Mr. Specter. What is there, in and of the nature of the smaller wound of exit and larger wound of entrance in the Governor's wrist as contrasted with a smaller wound of entrance and larger wound of exit in 854 and 855, which leads you to conclude that the Governor's wrist was not struck by a pristine bullet?
Dr. Olivier. Do you want to repeat that question again?
Mr. Specter. What is there about the wound of entry or exit which led you to think that the Governor's wrist wasn't struck by a pristine bullet?
Dr. Olivier. Well, he would have had a larger exit wound than entrance wound, which he did not.
Mr. Specter. And if the velocity of the missile is decreased, how does that effect the nature of the wounds of entry and exit?
Dr. Olivier. If the velocity is decreased, if the bullet is still stable, he still should have a larger exit wound than an entrance.
Now, on the other hand, to get a larger entrance wound and a smaller exit wound, this indicates the bullet probably hit with very much of a yaw. I mean, as this hole appeared in the velocity screen the bullet either tumbling or striking sideways, this would have made a larger entrance wound, lose considerable of its velocity in fracturing the bone, and coming out at a very low velocity, made a smaller hole.
Mr. Specter. So the crucial factor would be the analysis that the bullet was characterized with yaw at the time it struck?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. Causing a larger wound of entry and a smaller wound of exit?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. Now is there anything in the——
Dr. Olivier. Also at a reduced velocity because if it struck at considerable yaw at a high velocity as it could do if it hit something and deflected, it would have, it could make a larger wound of exit but it would have been even a more severe wound than we had here. It would have been very severe, could even amputate the wrist hitting at high velocity sideways. We have to say this bullet was characterized by an extreme amount of yaw and reduced velocity. How much reduced, I don't know, but considerably reduced.
Mr. Specter. Does the greater damage, inflicted on the wrist in 854 and 855 than that which was inflicted on Governor Connally's wrist, have any value as indicating whether Governor Connally's wrist was struck by a pristine bullet?
Dr. Olivier. No; because holding the velocity the same or similar the damage would be greater with a tumbling bullet than a pristine.
I think it reflects both instability and reduced velocity. You have to show the two. I mean, the size of the entrance and exit are very important. This shows that the thing was used when it struck. The fact that there was no more damage than was done by a tumbling bullet indicates the bullet at a reduced velocity. You have to put these two things together.
Mr. Specter. Had Governor Connally's wrist been struck with a pristine bullet without yaw, would more damage have been inflicted——
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. Than was inflicted on the Governor's wrist?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. So then the lesser damage on the Governor's wrist in and of itself indicates in your opinion——
Dr. Olivier. That it wasn't struck by a pristine bullet; yes.
Mr. Specter. Are there any other conclusions which flow from the experiments which you conducted on the wrist?
Dr. Olivier. We concluded that it wasn't struck by a pristine bullet. Also drew the conclusion that it was struck by an unstable bullet, a bullet at a much reduced velocity. The question that it brings up in my mind is if the same bullet that struck the wrist had passed through the Governor's chest, if the bullet that struck the Governor's chest had not hit anything else would it have been reduced low enough to do this, and I wonder, based on our work—it brings to mind the possibility the same bullet that struck the President striking the Governor would account for this more readily. I don't know, I don't think you can ever say this, but it is a very good possibility, I think more possible, more probable than not.
The Chairman. What is more probable than not, Doctor?
Dr. Olivier. In my mind at least, and I don't know the angles at which the things went or anything, it seems to me more probable that the bullet that hit the Governor's chest had already been slowed down somewhat, in order to lose enough velocity to strike his wrist and do no more damage than it did. I don't know how you would ever determine it exactly. I think the best approach is to find out the angles of flight, whether it is possible. But I have a feeling that it might have been.
The Chairman. It might have been?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
The Chairman. The one that went through his chest went through his hand also.
Dr. Olivier. Yes; and also through the President.
The Chairman. The first shot?
Dr. Olivier. Well, I don't know whether the first or second. The first one could have missed. It could have been the second that hit both.
The Chairman. The one that went through his back and came out his trachea?
Dr. Olivier. It could have hit the Governor in the chest and went through because it had so little velocity after coming out of the wrist that it barely penetrated the thigh.
The Chairman. May I ask one more question? Would you think, that the same bullet could have done all three of those things?
Dr. Olivier. That same bullet was capable.
The Chairman. Gone through the President's back as it did, gone through Governor Connally's chest as it did, and then through his hand as it did?
Dr. Olivier. It was certainly capable of doing all that.
The Chairman. It was capable?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
The Chairman. The one shot?
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. Doctor Olivier, based on the descriptions of the wound on the Governor's back, what in your opinion was the characteristic of the bullet at the time it struck the Governor's back with respect to the course of its flight?
Dr. Olivier. Let's say from the size of the wound as described by the surgeon, it could have been tipped somewhat when it struck because that is a fairly large wound. Another thing that could have done it is the angle at which it hit. On the goat some of the wounds were larger than others. On the goat material some of the wounds were larger than others because of the angle at which it hit this material. The same thing could happen on the Governor's back.
Mr. Specter. And how was that wound described with respect to its size?
Dr. Olivier. The Governor's wound?
Mr. Specter. On the Governor's back?
Dr. Olivier. About 3 centimeters at its largest dimension.
Mr. Specter. And would you have any view as to which factor was more probable, as to whether it was a tangential strike on the Governor's back, or whether there was yaw in the bullet at the time it struck the Governor's back?
Dr. Olivier. I couldn't as far as being tangential. I couldn't answer that, not knowing the position of the Governor. But it could have been caused by a bullet yawing. I mean it would have made a larger wound, as that was.
Mr. Specter. Is there any other cause which could account for that type of a large wound on the Governor's back other than with the bullet yawing?
Dr. Olivier. With this particular bullet those would be the two probable causes of this wound of this size.
Mr. Specter. And those two probable causes are what?
Dr. Olivier. One, the bullet hitting not perpendicular to the surface of the Governor, in other words, hitting tangential at a slight angle on his back so that it came in cutting the skin. Another, the bullet hitting that wasn't perpendicular to the surface as it hit. The bullet did go along, the surgeon described the path as tangential but he is speaking of along the rib. It isn't clear it was, as it struck, whether it was a tangential shot or actually perpendicular to the Governor's back.
Mr. Specter. Permit me to add one additional factor which Dr. Shaw testified to during the course of the proceeding after he measured the angle of decline through the Governor; and Dr. Shaw testified that there was a 25° to 27° angle of declination measuring from front to back on the Governor, taking into account the position of the wound on the Governor's back and the position of the wound on the Governor's chest below the right nipple.
Now with that factor, added to those which you already know, would that enable you to form a conclusion as to whether the nature of the wound on the Governor's back was caused by yaw of the bullet or by a tangential strike?
Dr. Olivier. I don't think I would want to say. If I could have seen the Governor's wound, this would have been a help.
Mr. Specter. Would the damage done to the Governor's wrist indicate that a bullet which was fired approximately 160 to 250 feet away with the muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, would it indicate that the bullet was slowed up only by the passage through the Governor's body, in the way which you know, or would it indicate that there was some other factor which slowed up the bullet in addition?
Dr. Olivier. It would indicate there was some other factor that had slowed up the bullet in addition.
Mr. Specter. What is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Dr. Olivier. The amount of damage alone; striking that end it would have caused more severe comminution as we found. You know—if it hadn't been slowed up in some other fashion. At that range it still had a striking velocity of 1,858 or in the vicinity of 1,800 feet per second, which is capable of doing more damage than was done to the Governor's wrist.
Mr. Specter. Had the same bullet which passed through the President, in the way heretofore described for the record, then struck the Governor as well, what effect would there have been in reducing its velocity as a result of that course?
Dr. Olivier. You say the bullet first struck the President. In coming out of the President's body it would have had a tendency to be slightly unstable. In striking the Governor it would have lost more velocity in his chest than if it had been a pristine bullet striking the Governor's chest, so it would have exited from the Governor's chest I would say at a considerably reduced velocity, probably with a good amount of yaw or tumbling, and this would account for the type of wound that the Governor did have in his wrist.
Mr. Specter. The approximate reduction in velocity on passage through the goat was what, Doctor?
Dr. Olivier. The average velocity loss in the seven cases we did was 82 feet per second.
Mr. Specter. If the bullet had passed through the President prior to the time it passed through the Governor, would you expect a larger loss than 82 feet per second resulting from the passage through the body of the Governor?
Dr. Olivier. I am not sure if I heard you correctly. This is if it hit the Governor without hitting the President or hitting the President first?
Mr. Specter. Let me rephrase it for you, Dr. Olivier.
Dr. Olivier. Yes; please.
Mr. Specter. You testified that the bullet lost 82 feet per second when it passed through the goat.
Dr. Olivier. Yes.
Mr. Specter. Now what would your expectations be as to the reduction in velocity on a bullet which passed through the Governor, assuming that it struck nothing first?
Dr. Olivier. It would be greater; the distance through the Governor's chest would have been greater.
Mr. Specter. Would that be an appreciable or approximately the same?
Dr. Olivier. Can I bring in any other figures? Dr. Dziemian has computed approximately what he thought it would have lost.
Mr. Specter. Yes, of course, if you have any other figure which would be helpful.
Dr. Dziemian. I believe you misunderstood Mr. Specter. I think you gave the figure for the loss of velocity through the Governor's wrist instead of through his chest.
Dr. Olivier. I am sorry. We were on the wrist; okay.
Mr. Specter. Let me start again then. In an effort to draw some conclusion about the reduction in velocity through the Governor's chest, I am now going back and asking you what was the reduction in velocity of the bullet which passed through the goat?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I did misunderstand you. I am sorry. The loss in velocity passing through the goat was 265 feet per second.
Mr. Specter. Now, would that be the approximate loss in velocity of a pristine bullet passing through the Governor?
Dr. Olivier. The loss would be somewhat greater.
Mr. Specter. How much greater in your opinion?
Dr. Olivier. Do you have that figure, Dr. Dziemian?
Dr. Dziemian. I would say a pristine bullet of the Governor was about half again thicker. It would be about half again as great velocity, somewhere around 400.
Mr. Specter. Had the bullet passed through only the Governor, losing velocity of 400 feet per second, would you have expected that the damage inflicted on the Governor's wrist would have been about the same as that inflicted on Governor Connally or greater?
Dr. Olivier. My feeling is it would have been greater.
Mr. Specter. Had the bullet passed through the President and then struck Governor Connally, would it have lost velocity of 400 feet per second in passing through Governor Connally or more?
Dr. Olivier. It would have lost more.
Mr. Specter. What is the reason for that?
Dr. Olivier. The bullet after passing through, say a dense medium, then through air and then through another dense medium tends to be more unstable, based on our past work. It appears to be that it would have tumbled more readily and lost energy more rapidly. How much velocity it would have lost, I couldn't say, but it would have lost more.
Mr. Specter. Are there any indications from the internal wounds on Governor Connally as to whether or not the bullet which entered his body was an unstable bullet?
Dr. Olivier. The only thing that might give you an indication would be the skin wound of entrance, the type of rib fracture and all that I think could be accounted for by either type, because in our experiment we simulated, although not to as great a degree, the damage wasn't as severe, but I think it would be hard to say that.
One thing comes to my mind right now that might indicate it. There was a greater flattening of the bullet in our experiments than there was going through the Governor, which might indicate that it struck the rib which did the flattening at a lower velocity. This is only a thought.
Mr. Specter. It struck the rib of the Governor?
Dr. Olivier. It struck the rib of the Governor at a lower velocity because that bullet was less flattened than the bullet through the goat material.
Mr. Specter. Based on the nature of the wound inflicted on the Governor's wrist, and on the tests which you have conducted then, do you have an opinion as to which is more probable on whether the bullet passed through only the Governor's chest before striking his wrist, or passed through the President first and then the Governor's chest before striking the Governor's wrist?
Dr. Olivier. Will you say that again to make sure I have it?
Mr. Specter. [To the reporter.] Could you repeat that question, please?
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Dr. Olivier. You couldn't say exactly at all. My feeling is that it would be more probable that it passed through the President first. At least I think it is important to establish line of flight to try to determine it.
Mr. Specter. Aside from the lines of flight, based on the factors which were known to you from the medical point of view and from the tests which you conducted, what would be the reason for the feeling which you just expressed?
Dr. Olivier. Because I believe you would need that, I mean to account for the damage to the wrist. I don't think you would have gotten a low enough velocity upon reaching the wrist unless you had gone through the President's body first.
Mr. Specter. The President's body as well as the Governor's body?
Dr. Olivier. As well as the Governor's.
Mr. Specter. Does the nature of the wound which was inflicted on Governor Connally's thigh shed any light on this subject?
Dr. Olivier. This, to my mind, at least, merely indicates the bullet at this time was about spent. In talking with doctor, I believe it was Gregory, I don't think he did the operation on the thigh but at least he saw the wound, and he said it was about the size of an eraser on a lead pencil. This could be accounted for—and there was also this small fragment of bullet in this thigh wound—this, to me, indicates that this was a spent bullet that had gone through the wrist as the Governor was sitting there, went through the wrist into his thigh, just partly imbedded and then fell out and I believe this was the bullet that was found on the stretcher.
Mr. Specter. Would you have any opinion as to the velocity of that bullet at the time it struck the Governor's thigh?
Dr. Olivier. No. We didn't do any work to simulate this, but it would have been at a very low velocity just to have gone in that far and drop out again.
Mr. Specter. Dr. Olivier, in the regular course of your work for the U.S. Army, do you have occasion to perform tests on reconstructed human skulls to determine the effects of bullets on skulls?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I do.
Mr. Specter. And did you have occasion to conduct such a test in connection with the series which you are now describing?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; I did.
Mr. Specter. And would you outline briefly the procedures for simulating the human skull?
Dr. Olivier. Human skulls, we take these human skulls and they are imbedded and filled with 20 percent gelatin. As I mentioned before, 20 percent gelatin is a pretty good simulant for body tissues.
They are in the moisture content. When I say 20 percent, it is 20 percent weight of the dry gelatin, 80 percent moisture.
The skull, the cranial cavity, is filled with this and the surface is coated with a gelatin and then it is trimmed down to approximate the thickness of the tissues overlying the skull, the soft tissues of the head.
Mr. Specter. And at what distance were these tests performed?
Dr. Olivier. These tests were performed at a distance of 90 yards.
Mr. Specter. And what gun was used?
Dr. Olivier. It was a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano that was marked Commission Exhibit 139.
Mr. Specter. What bullets were used?
Dr. Olivier. It was the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western ammunition lot 6,000.
Mr. Specter. What did that examination or test, rather, disclose?
Dr. Olivier. It disclosed that the type of head wounds that the President received could be done by this type of bullet. This surprised me very much, because this type of a stable bullet I didn't think would cause a massive head wound, I thought it would go through making a small entrance and exit, but the bones of the skull are enough to deform the end of this bullet causing it to expend a lot of energy and blowing out the side of the skull or blowing out fragments of the skull.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a case containing bullet fragments marked Commission Exhibit 857 and ask if you have ever seen those fragments before.
Dr. Olivier. Yes, I have.
Mr. Specter. And under what circumstances have you viewed those before, please?
Dr. Olivier. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment. We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within the cranial cavity.
Mr. Specter. Now, I show you two fragments designated as Commission Exhibits 567 and 579 heretofore identified as having been found on the front seat of the President's car on November 22, 1963, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to examine those before.
Dr. Olivier. Yes, I have.
Mr. Specter. And have you had an opportunity to compare those to the two fragments identified as Commission Exhibit 857?
Dr. Olivier. Yes, I have.
Mr. Specter. And what did that comparison show?
Dr. Olivier. They are quite similar. These two fragments on, what is the number?
Mr. Specter. 857.
Dr. Olivier. On 857 there isn't as much of the front part in this one, but in other respects they are very similar.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 858 and ask you what that depicts.
Mr. Dulles. Could I see that other exhibit?
Dr. Olivier. These are the same fragments as marked 857.
Mr. Specter. That is a photograph of the fragments marked 857?
Dr. Olivier. 857.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 859 and ask you what that depicts?
Dr. Olivier. These are the smaller fragments that have been labeled, also, Exhibit 857. This picture or some of the fragments labeled 857, these are the smaller fragments contained in the same box.
Mr. Specter. Are all of the fragments on 859 contained within 857?
Dr. Olivier. They are supposed to be, photographed and placed in the box. If they dropped out they are supposed to be all there.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Dulles. Back on the record.
Mr. Specter. At what point on the skull did the bullet, which fragmented into Commission Exhibit 857, strike?
Dr. Olivier. I would have to see the picture. I mean I can't remember exactly what point. I can tell you the point we were aiming at and approximately where it hit.
Mr. Specter. Permit me to make available a photograph to you, then, for purposes of refreshing your recollection, and in testifying as to the point which was struck, for that purpose.
Dr. Olivier. We did 10 skulls so I can't remember offhand where everyone struck.
Mr. Specter. For that purpose I hand you Commission Exhibit 860 and ask you if that is designated in any way to identify it.
Mr. Dulles. This is the test we are talking about now, is it?
Mr. Specter. Yes, sir; where the bullet fragmented into pieces in 857.
Mr. Dulles. Are you introducing that into evidence?
Mr. Specter. Yes, sir.
Mr. Dulles. Have you already introduced it in the record?
Mr. Specter. May I at this point move for the admission into evidence of Commission Exhibits 844 through 860, and they have been identified in sequence as being the photographs, X-rays, and other tangible exhibits used in connection with these tests.
Mr. Dulles. They shall be admitted.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission Exhibits Nos. 844 through 860 were received in evidence.)
Dr. Olivier. This photograph is the skull that was shot with the bullet, the fragments which are marked 857.
Mr. Specter. At what point on the skull did the bullet strike?
Dr. Olivier. From this I couldn't tell you exactly the point. We were aiming, as described in the autopsy report if I remember correctly the point 2 centimeters to the right of the external occipital protuberance and slightly above it. We placed a mark on the skull at that point, according to the autopsy the bullet emerged through the superorbital process, so we drew a line to give us the line of flight, put unclipped goat hair over the back to simulate the scalp and put a mark on the area which we wished to shoot.
Now, every shot didn't strike exactly where we wanted, but they all struck in the back of the skull in the vicinity of our aiming point, some maybe slightly above the external occipital protuberance. In some cases very close to our aiming spot.
This particular skull blew out the right side in a manner very similar to the wounds of the President, and if I remember correctly, it was very close to the point at which we aimed.
In other words, a couple centimeters to the right.
Mr. Specter. Do you have any record which would be more specific on the point of entrance?
Dr. Olivier. Our notebook has all——
Mr. Specter. Will you refer to your notes, then?
Dr. Olivier. The notebook is in the safe in there in the briefcase.
Mr. Specter. Would you get the notebook and refer to it so we can be as specific as possible on this point.
Dr. Olivier. I have the location of that wound.
Mr. Specter. Would you give us then the precise location of the wound caused by bullet identified as 857?
Dr. Olivier. The entrance wound is 2.9 centimeters to the right and almost horizontal to the occipital protuberance. This is almost exactly where we were aiming. We were aiming 2 centimeters to the right.
Mr. Specter. I now hand you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit 861, move its admission into evidence, and ask you to state what that depicts.
Dr. Olivier. This is the skull in question, the same one from which the fragments marked Exhibit 857 were recovered.
Mr. Specter. And what does that show as to damage done to the skull?
Dr. Olivier. It blew the whole side of the cranial cavity away.
Mr. Specter. How does that compare, then, with the damage inflicted on President Kennedy?
Dr. Olivier. Very similar. I think they stated the length of the defect, the missing skull was 13 centimeters if I remember correctly. This in this case it is greater, but you don't have the limiting scalp holding the pieces in so you would expect it to fly a little more but it is essentially a similar type wound.
Mr. Specter. Does the human scalp work to hold in the human skull in such circumstances to a greater extent than the simulated matters used?
Dr. Olivier. Yes; we take this into account.
Mr. Specter. I hand you Commission Exhibit 862, move its admission into evidence, and ask you what that depicts?
Dr. Olivier. This is the same skull. This is just looking at it from the front. You are looking at the exit. You can't see it here because the bone has been blown away, but the bullet exited somewhere around—we reconstructed the skull. In other words, it exited very close to the superorbital ridge, possibly below it.
Mr. Specter. Did you formulate any other conclusions or opinions based on the tests on firing at the skull?
Dr. Olivier. Well, let's see. We found that this bullet could do exactly—could make the type of wound that the President received.
Also, that the recovered fragments were very similar to the ones recovered on the front seat and on the floor of the car.
This, to me, indicates that those fragments did come from the bullet that wounded the President in the head.
Mr. Specter. And how do the two major fragments in 857 compare, then, with the fragments heretofore identified as 567 and 569?
Dr. Olivier. They are quite similar.
Mr. Specter. Do you have an opinion as to whether the wound on the Governor's wrist could have been caused by a fragment of a bullet coming off of the President's head?
Dr. Olivier. I don't believe so. Frankly, I don't know, but I don't believe so, because it expended so much energy in blowing the head apart and took a lot of energy that I doubt if they could have fractured the radius. The radius is a very strong, hard bone and I don't believe they could have done that much damage. I believe they could have caused a superficial laceration on someone or a mark on the windshield, but I don't believe they could have done that damage to the wrist.
Mr. Dulles. And it couldn't have then gone through the wrist into the thigh?
Dr. Olivier. I don't believe so.
Mr. Specter. Have you had an opportunity to examine a fragment identified as Commission Exhibit 842 which is the fragment taken from Governor Connally's wrist?
Dr. Olivier. Yes, I have.
Mr. Specter. Could that fragment have come from the bullet designated as Commission Exhibit 399?
Dr. Olivier. Yes, I believe it would have, I will add further I believe it could have because the core of the bullet extrudes through the back and would allow part of it to break off very readily.
Mr. Specter. Do you have an opinion as to whether, in fact, bullet 399 did cause the wound on the Governor's wrist, assuming if you will that it was the missile found on the Governor's stretcher at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. Olivier. I believe that it was. That is my feeling.
Mr. Specter. To be certain that the record is complete on the skull tests, would you again state the distance at which those tests were performed?
Dr. Olivier. Yes, the skulls—it was fired at the skulls at a range of 90 yards.
Mr. Specter. With what gun?
Dr. Olivier. The 6.5 mm. Carcano which was marked Commission Exhibit 139 and using Western ammunition lot 6,000, again the 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano.
Mr. Specter. Going to the results of the test on the cadavers, what was the average exit velocity?
Dr. Olivier. The average exit velocity on the wrist was 1,776 feet per second.
Mr. Specter. Had Governor Connally's wrist been struck with a pristine bullet and the bullet exited at that speed, what damage would have been inflicted had it then struck the area of the thigh which was struck on the Governor according to the Parkland Hospital records which you have said you have examined?
Dr. Olivier. It would have made a very severe wound.
Mr. Specter. Would it have been more severe than the one which was inflicted?
Dr. Olivier. Much more so.
Mr. Specter. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Olivier, which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?
Dr. Olivier. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. Dulles. I have no further questions.
Mr. Specter. That completes my questions, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. Dulles. Thank you very much. We appreciate very much your coming.
(Discussion off the record.)