TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS RESUMED
The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. Belin. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Sims. I do.
Mr. Belin. You are Detective Richard M. Sims?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Detective Sims, the day before yesterday you gave testimony in front of or before Joseph A. Ball?
Mr. Sims. Yes.
Mr. Belin. At that time the matter came up concerning cartridge case hulls that were found on the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. Do you remember that he asked about those?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Just for continuity of the record, would you tell us just how you came to see those hulls?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I, my partner, were on the seventh floor, and someone called us to the sixth floor and said the hulls had been found.
So we took the freight elevator, I believe, or the stairs, and went to the sixth floor. Went to the southeast corner and three hulls were laying there by the window on the floor.
Mr. Belin. Did you pick up the hulls at that time?
Mr. Sims. No, sir.
Mr. Belin. What did you do?
Mr. Sims. Waited for the arrival of Lieutenant Day with the crime lab to take pictures of the scene.
Mr. Belin. Do you know who came with Lieutenant Day, if you can remember?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir. I believe it was Studebaker. I am not positive about that.
Mr. Belin. Did you watch that area up until the time the pictures were taken?
Mr. Sims. No, sir; I didn't stay there all the time.
Mr. Belin. After the pictures were taken, what did you do?
Mr. Sims. I was over there, I believe, when they finished up with the pictures, and I picked the three hulls up and laid them on what I believed to be a box of books there near the window, and Lieutenant Day dusted them for fingerprints.
Mr. Belin. Then when your testimony was taken, did you specifically remember what you did with those hulls?
Mr. Sims. I didn't remember who brought the hulls to the city hall.
Mr. Belin. Since that time have you had an opportunity to refresh your recollection as to what happened to the hulls?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; I talked to Captain Fritz and E. L. Boyd, my partner, and refreshed my memory.
Mr. Belin. What was said, and what do you now say happened?
Mr. Sims. Captain Fritz told me to get the hulls after Lieutenant Day finished with them and to take possession of them.
Mr. Belin. What did you do?
Mr. Sims. I did that.
Mr. Belin. How did you take possession of them?
Mr. Sims. I placed them in an envelope and put them in my coat pocket.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember which pocket?
Mr. Sims. No, sir.
Mr. Belin. Then what did you do with them?
Mr. Sims. When we got to the city hall, I gave them to Captain Fritz in his office.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember what time that was, possibly?
Mr. Sims. No, sir; they took my notes the other day. I couldn't say. Whenever we arrived back at the city hall, they have what time that was.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember what the occasion was of your going down to the city hall there? Is that why you happened to go down to the city hall that afternoon?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; we were going to get started on Oswald.
Mr. Belin. Were you on your way down there to investigate whether or not he had any record?
Mr. Sims. I didn't know what he had at the time. I don't remember. I was driving, and captain, we stopped at the sheriff's office for a few minutes, and then went directly from there to the city hall.
Mr. Belin. Why were you going to get started on Oswald?
Mr. Sims. I don't know. Captain Fritz said go to the city hall.
Mr. Belin. Did he tell you that they were going to get started on Oswald?
Mr. Sims. No. He said go to the city hall.
Mr. Belin. And that is what you did?
Mr. Sims. Yes.
Mr. Belin. When you got to the city hall, did you go directly to Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. When you got there, was anyone inside?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Who was there?
Mr. Sims. His office was full of people.
Mr. Belin. Was Lee Oswald one of them?
Mr. Sims. Yes.
Mr. Belin. In Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. Sims. No. He was, I believe, now in the interrogation room. I am not positive. He wasn't in Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. Belin. What did you do with that envelope when you got to Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. Sims. I laid it on his desk and told him there was the hulls, or either gave it to him.
Mr. Belin. You don't remember which one?
Mr. Sims. No.
Mr. Belin. Now what caused you to remember now what you actually did with the hulls? I mean, what refreshed your recollection as to that?
Mr. Sims. Talked to Captain Fritz, and I remember we was going over to where the rifle, someone had found the rifle in the meantime, and we was walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls.
Mr. Belin. What did you do then?
Mr. Sims. Well, I went over to where the rifle was found, and went back later to where the hulls were.
Mr. Belin. Were the hulls still in the location you left them for being dusted for fingerprints?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; they were still taking pictures.
Mr. Belin. Were they still taking pictures, or dusting them?
Mr. Sims. I hadn't picked them up. They were still, as far as I can remember, taking pictures, because Captain Fritz left two officers to preserve the scene.
Mr. Belin. When you got back, what did you do after they got through with the pictures?
Mr. Sims. When he got through with the scenery I picked the hulls up.
Mr. Belin. Was it then that he dusted them, or what?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Now, did Captain Fritz tell you that this is what you did, or Boyd tell you?
Mr. Sims. No, I remembered the other day when I testified I wasn't too sure who brought them down, and then after I talked to Captain Fritz and Boyd, I remembered definitely we were walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls, so I did that.
Mr. Belin. Did Captain Fritz tell you, or the other, Day, that you were the one that brought the hulls, or did you independently remember?
Mr. Sims. I remembered putting them in my coat pocket.
Mr. Belin. Now, Detective Sims, just so that I can have a complete understanding of the process by which you refreshed your recollection, you talked to Captain Fritz about this after you testified here on Monday?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. What did he say and what did you say, if you remember?
Mr. Sims. I told him I couldn't remember for sure about who brought the hulls up there to his office or what happened to the hulls, and then I talked to him.
Mr. Belin. What did he say?
Mr. Sims. He said, "Well, remember I told you to get the hulls and bring them to the office."
And I talked to Boyd, my partner, and he said that Captain Fritz had said that, too, so I remembered exactly about where I was when he told me this.
Mr. Belin. In other words, Captain Fritz told you on Monday, that back on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls? Is that what Captain Fritz told you on this past Monday?
Mr. Sims. No, not the past Monday. Now this was——
Mr. Belin. Well, today is Wednesday. Could it have been on Tuesday, or Monday?
Mr. Sims. I don't know if it was yesterday or Monday.
Mr. Belin. Was it either late Monday, April 6, or Tuesday, April 7?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. That Captain Fritz told you that back on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls and bring them down?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. And you also discussed this with Detective Boyd either on April 6 or 7?
Mr. Sims. Yes.
Mr. Belin. You are nodding your head yes?
Mr. Sims. Yes.
Mr. Belin. All right. Now, after they told you this, what is the fact as to whether you then do or do not independently remember actually putting these shells in an envelope?
Mr. Sims. I do, yes, sir; I remember putting them in an envelope.
Mr. Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not you now independently remember putting that envelope in your pocket?
Mr. Sims. I do, yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Did Captain Fritz tell you that he saw you put them in your pocket?
Mr. Sims. No; he didn't say anything about the envelope or pocket. I remember he told me to be sure and get the hulls.
Mr. Belin. What about Boyd, did he say anything about an envelope? Or pocket?
Mr. Sims. I don't believe he did, no, sir.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember what color envelope it was?
Mr. Sims. I believe it was a brown, something brown envelope.
Mr. Belin. You are pointing to a brown manilla envelope on top of the desk here?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember how big an envelope it was?
Mr. Sims. No, sir; I don't. We have two different sizes, and I don't remember what size.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember from whom you got the envelope?
Mr. Sims. Lieutenant Day had it. When he goes to a scene, he has envelopes.
Mr. Belin. Did Lieutenant Day or anyone else see you put that envelope in your pocket?
Mr. Sims. I don't know if he saw me put the envelope in my pocket, but he was there when I took possession of the hulls.
Mr. Belin. He was?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; I am not sure, I don't know if the other crime lab officer was present or not. That would be Studebaker, I believe.
Mr. Belin. Where were these hulls when you last saw them, or saw the envelope in which they were?
Mr. Sims. In Captain Fritz' office, I believe.
Mr. Belin. Were they just laying on his desk, or in his physical possession?
Mr. Sims. In this envelope.
Mr. Belin. Was the envelope on his desk?
Mr. Sims. I don't remember if I actually gave them to him or put them there on the desk in front of him.
Mr. Belin. But he was there when you left there?
Mr. Sims. Yes.
Mr. Belin. And that is the last time you saw them?
Mr. Sims. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Do you remember whether or not you ever initialed the hulls?
Mr. Sims. I don't know if I initialed the hulls or not.
Mr. Belin. If you would have initialed the hulls, what initials would you have used?
Mr. Sims. As a rule, RMS.
Mr. Belin. RMS?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; but I believe I initialed the hulls or the envelope that I put them in.
Mr. Belin. Would you have initialed the outside or the inside of the hull? By that, do you understand what I mean?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; it all depends. I would initial the outside of the hulls, I imagine, or put a mark directly inside of the hull.
Mr. Belin. Either on the outside or directly inside the top part of the hull?
Mr. Sims. No, sir; the end.
Mr. Belin. On the end of the hull?
Mr. Sims. Yes, the spent end.
Mr. Belin. The spent end?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant?
Mr. Sims. No, sir; but I do definitely remember him telling me about be sure and get the hulls.
Mr. Belin. You definitely remember getting the hulls?
Mr. Sims. Yes, sir; sure do.
Mr. Belin. Have you and I ever talked before you walked through the door?
Mr. Sims. No.
Mr. Belin. As soon as you walked through the door, I had you raise your right hand and you started testifying, is that correct?
Mr. Sims. Yes.
Mr. Belin. Do you want to read this deposition, or are you going to sign the other deposition?
Mr. Sims. No, sir; just go ahead.
Mr. Belin. Ship it on in?
Mr. Sims. Yes.
Mr. Belin. All right, thank you, sir.