TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED
The proceeding was reconvened at 2 p.m.
Mr. Jenner. As I recall, yesterday you testified your recollection was that early in your acquaintance with the Oswalds, you approached Sam Ballen to see if he could undertake or might be able to employ Oswald.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. To refresh your recollection in that regard, Mr. Ballen says his recollection is that he first met Lee in December 1962 or January 1963 at your home.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It could be.
Mr. Jenner. And he was aware that you had approached Mr. Ballen's wife and other people to assist the Oswalds, and also to have them out socially.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. You did do that, did you?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I don't remember whether I asked the Ballens to invite them, but I did ask some other people to invite them, because they were so lonesome. And maybe fortunately for them, they refused.
I remember I asked a physicist to invite them in Dallas, and they just refused. He said, "I don't know those people. I don't want to have anything to do with them."
Mr. Jenner. His recollection is about 10 days after he met them at your home, you called him and asked if he might be able to employ him, or might be helpful in his obtaining a job.
Does that stimulate your recollection that the events you mentioned yesterday occurred probably in December 1962 or January 1963—that is, the event regarding your effort to induce Mr. Ballen?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes—it should be probably at that time, because—I had the impression that it was earlier than that—when he was moving from Fort Worth to Dallas, at the very beginning. I still have the impression. Because that is where I was interested, to help them, you see.
I did not know that he lost his job with the other company. I didn't know that.
All this is later, after we had already gone.
So I have the impression that maybe he confused the time. It seems to me that I asked him at the very beginning when I met the Oswalds, when he lost his first job in Fort Worth and was trying to move to Dallas—that was the time.
Mr. Jenner. He lost his job at Leslie Welding Co.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I don't know the name of that company, but it was some welding outfit.
Mr. Jenner. Sheetmetal work.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the period when Marina stayed at the Fords, in November?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. When she stayed at the Fords?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was the time when we took Marina and the child away from Lee and put her in the house of Mellers, and then the Mellers asked Mrs. Ford to take her. I think that was the time.
And then, later on, the Fords asked Mrs. Ray to take Marina. She moved from one place to another—three times, as far as I remember, she changed domiciles.
And finally returned to Lee.
Mr. Jenner. You remember this event you related yesterday, when you took Marina from the home?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. As having occurred——
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In September.
I have the impression it was in September. But it is, again, only a recollection, because I remember that it was a very hot day—very sunny, hot day. So it could be in October. And also in October we started working on this campaign, cystic fibrosis campaign, and were very busy.
But it might have been in October.
Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Ford's recollection is that Marina was at her home—she came there on November 11, and left on November 17.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It could be that.
Mr. Jenner. And this is while Marina was separated temporarily from her husband?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Unless she had been twice at her home. I think she was only once at her home. There were three homes—once at Mellers, the Fords, and the third at the Rays, one after another, in succession.
Mr. Jenner. Now, this is apparently part of that series of changes she made when she left, herself—that is, this was not an occasion when you took her?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I think that is the occasion we took her—we took her to the Mellers, and then she moved from them by herself—that we had no knowledge of. How she moved or who took her from one house to another, I do not know.
Mr. Jenner. You have a recollection there were two periods—one period that you are talking about when you took her from the home, and then another period when she left the home, herself?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That could be, very easily. But then it would fit very well in my schedule—that would have been the second time—because, at that time, we were not seeing the Oswalds. We were busy on something else, Jeanne was working both in the store and at the foundation, I was preparing my project, and we were very busy, and didn't see anybody, practically, and especially the Oswalds.
October, November; I don't think we saw them at all in October, November, December.
Mr. Jenner. Did I ask you about Betty MacDonald this morning, as to whether she was at that February 1963 party?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; I think that is the librarian. The name MacDonald sounds familiar to me. Is she Pierce's fiance? That is how I remember her.
Mr. Jenner. I am just trying to get these two events. Marina recalls when they lived on Elsbeth Street she had a dispute with Lee, and—about her Russian friends, in which he said, "Well, if you like your friends so much, then go ahead and live with them."
And she said that left her no choice, so she got in a cab and went over to Anna Meller's house with the baby.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, that is how she described it.
Mr. Jenner. She was there a week.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was the second time? What month was it?
Mr. Jenner. I don't know.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we took her there. But maybe she went there for the second time, you see.
Mr. Jenner. Well, she may have forgotten you took her.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; maybe she forgot it. You know, we took all the furniture also. I could not forget that—because my car was loaded. You could practically feel the ground. I still have the same car in Haiti today.
We had a tremendous load in our car. It took us the whole day to load and unload and carry them.
Mr. Jenner. Now, she voiced the opinion that—she said Lee liked you.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am sorry that he did, but, obviously he did.
Mr. Jenner. She said because you were a strong person. She is expressing her opinion now, of course. But he only liked you among all this group. He disliked Bouhe, he disliked Anna Meller.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I am surprised, because Bouhe is very—a person that you can like or dislike immediately. As to Mrs. Meller, I am surprised, because she is very kind and a nice person.
Mr. Jenner. Well, this is Lee Oswald. That could possibly arise out of the fact that Anna Meller befriended her when she left the household.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. I don't know what the reason was.
But you have confirmed the fact that he didn't care for the people in the Russian colony.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He did not have any friends, you see. Maybe he identified me not as a Russian, because I have not much Russian blood in me anyway. Maybe he identified me as some sort of an internationalist, American.
Mr. Jenner. Maybe you are.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to think of other friends that he had. I cannot recall, myself, a friend of his, actually. I could not say that. He could be my son in age, you see. He is just a kid for me, with whom I played around. Sometimes I was curious to see what went on in his head.
But I certainly would not call myself a friend of his.
Mr. Jenner. Well, that may well be.
But Marina, at least, expresses herself that way—that you "were the only one who remained our friend."
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She said we were the only ones——
Mr. Jenner. Who remained their friends—the others sort of removed themselves.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Sure, we left, you know. We were no friends, nothing. We just were too busy to be with them—period.
Mr. Jenner. I am not talking about you. I am talking about the other people now.
As you related this morning, they began to withdraw.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and we were too busy. We saw them—we withdrew also to an extent—you see what I mean. We saw a lot of them at the beginning, and then we stopped seeing them. Then we saw them again for Christmas and invited them to another party, and that is all.
Then we saw them the last time for Easter.
I am not defending myself for having seen them. But that is a fact.
Mr. Jenner. Well, I appreciate that.
What was your impression as to whether this was a hospitable man?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Who, Oswald?
Mr. Jenner. Oswald. Was he a man who was not very hospitable?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I would not say so. To us, he was always quite hospitable.
Mr. Jenner. To you, I appreciate that. I am trying to find out——
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. About the others, I don't know, because I never saw anybody else there in the house.
I don't know how he would receive the people. I think he responded by kindness with kindness. He was responsive to kindness.
Mr. Jenner. Was there an impression among the people in this—we have talked about, that they came to feel that he didn't care for them?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes, yes; he didn't care for them because—well, let me put it this way.
He didn't care for them because they didn't care for him, and vice versa.
But you see most of the colony in Dallas is more emotionally involved in Russian affairs than we are, because they are closer to them. All of them have been relatively recently in Soviet Russia—while my wife has never been in Soviet Russia in her life, and I was 5 or 6 when I left it. So to me it doesn't mean very much.
I am curious, but it doesn't mean anything—it is too far removed.
Mr. Jenner. Did he ever express any views to you or give you the impression that he thought these people who had left Russia were fools for having left Russia?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't think so. I don't remember that.
Possibly he told somebody else. But not in my presence.
Mr. Jenner. Did he express any view to you or did you get the impression that these people in this colony or group, they only liked money, and everything was measured by money?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, naturally—he didn't tell that to me, but you can guess that that would be his opinion, because he was jealous of them. I tried to induce him a few times to get on to some money-making scheme. I said, "Why don't you do something to make money?"
But, obviously, it wasn't interesting to him.
Would you like me to say what I told you about this Solidarist?
Mr. Jenner. Yes.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You were interested—you asked me if I belonged to some political party, and I said no. This group of Russian refugees called themselves solidarists. And Mr. and Mrs. Voshinin in Dallas belonged to that group and tried to make me join it. Not being interested, I refused, but I read some of their publications. And it is a pro-American group of Russian refugees who have an economic doctrine of their own. And they seem to have some people working in the Soviet Union for them, and all that sort of thing.
It is a pretty well-known political party that—their headquarters is in Germany.
That is about all I know about them.
Mr. Jenner. But that group didn't interest you?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; nor any other group.
Mr. Jenner. I notice in the papers at my disposal some participation on your part in a foreign council discussion group in Dallas.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I belonged to that group—I don't remember during what period—and came quite often to the meetings.
Mr. Jenner. What is the name of it?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The Dallas Council of World Affairs. I met quite a few people at the meetings. But they were open, public meetings, where international affairs were discussed. I remember several of the Dallas real conservatives called that Dallas council very leftist. But I never noticed anything in particular.
Mr. Jenner. Were there people of substance that participated in that group?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; very much so. Mr. Marcus was the president of it. Mr. McGee was the president of it.
Mr. Mallon was president of that, and actually organized this group. Mr. Mallon is chairman of the board of Dresser Industries. But they invited some people to Dallas who are possibly socialists—I don't remember seeing anyone, but I guess they might have invited them.
Mr. Jenner. Did you on any occasion to express a view or say to anybody in Dallas among your friends that Oswald was an idealistic Marxist?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I might have said that.
Mr. Jenner. What did you mean by that?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That he had read and created some sort of a theory, a Marxist theory, for himself.
In other words, he created a doctrine for himself, a Marxist doctrine.
Mr. Jenner. Is that what you meant by use of the word "Idealist"?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that it was an idea in his head that he had—not in a very flattering way I meant that. That he was building up a doctrine in his head.
Mr. Jenner. Did you ever say anything to anybody on the subject that Oswald was opposed to the United States policy on Castro in Cuba?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I think he mentioned to me a couple of times.
Mr. Jenner. What did he say?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not remember the exact wording, but he said that he had admiration for Castro for opposing such a big power as the United States.
Mr. Jenner. Did the Voshinins ever ask you not to bring the Oswalds around to their house?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. They refused to see and to meet the Oswalds, either one of them. And I was quite surprised, frankly, why they didn't, because we all did and at first helped them—and they usually were very cooperative in helping the other people. In this particular case, they completely refused and looked sort of mysterious—why they didn't want to meet them.
I never asked any questions. But that is their privilege, not to see them.
Mr. Jenner. Do you remember the days you were in Abilene?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall having discussed politics there, in which you indicated, whether in provocation or otherwise, some admiration for the Soviet system of government?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't remember saying anything like that. It might have been misinterpreted. But I believe in peaceful coexistence. I think we can all live together without blowing each other to hell—and many other people believe that we couldn't do that. Probably the person with whom I was discussing it believed in immediate atomic retaliation. So, naturally, I told him what the hell.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall having said that if this country is ever invaded by Russia, you would have a very good chance of coming into a top position with the Russians if they invaded the United States?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I never said that. That is a purely Texas invention. It must have been a real enemy of mine who said that.
Mr. Jenner. You are intellectually opposed to the Communist system?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I am. I am not interested in it—period.
Mr. Jenner. You wrote—I don't know whether it was after your 8 or 9 months in Mexico, when you were enamoured of Lilia Larin, or whether it was on this previous occasion—when you were at the University of Texas, had you written or were you writing a manuscript entitled "Experiences of a Young Man in Mexico"?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes; but that is more or less a romantic dissertation, a romantic book based on some of my experiences there.
Mr. Jenner. Did you relate some of your romantic experiences?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, is it absolutely necessary? I don't recall even what I had written there.
Mr. Jenner. I just wanted the general nature of it.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't recall what it is. It is probably based on the travel in Mexico with some girls—that is about all. That is what I would write at that time and that age.
Mr. Jenner. You were interested in girls?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, at that time.
Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any people refer to you as the Mad Russian?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is an unfortunate term they call me quite often.
Mr. Jenner. You mentioned somebody from Brazil that had the sobriquet of King of Bananas. Was that the King of Orchids rather than the King of Bananas?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, maybe. But we called him the King of Bananas. At least I called him that.
I remember his name now—I mentioned it to you. Dr. Decio de Paulo Machado. I still—I think he is still in existence, because I asked about him recently.
Mr. Jenner. If I said you were an extrovert, would that agree with your own judgment of yourself?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I don't know if it is for others to call me. I would rather be an extrovert than an introvert.
Mr. Jenner. Well, for example, I regard myself as an extrovert.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Then I am happy to be an extrovert. I don't like to be accused of being too much of an extrovert, because I think if you pass the limit it is too much.
Mr. Jenner. Of course. Any extreme is bad. I made a reference yesterday to Professor Zitkoff, in Houston. I thought that might stimulate your recollection. Did you make regular trips to Houston?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; quite often.
Mr. Jenner. Were they substantially regular—once a month?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no. Without regularity, but quite often—mainly to see my clients there.
Mr. Jenner. And your clients were who?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In the oil business—I mainly used to come to see my friend John Jacobs, vice president of Texas Eastern, and the social acquaintances that I had there—Andy Todd, an architect there, a professor at Rice Institute. And maybe somebody else—I don't recall the name.
Mr. Jenner. But these trips to Houston were strictly business?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Maybe I was trying at the time to push forward my project in Haiti, you see, whereby I was trying to raise some money for the development of small industries in Haiti. And on that occasion I saw quite a few important people. But purely for that purpose—purely for business.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Is your daughter, Alexandra, a painter or an artist?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; my wife's daughter is a painter.
Mr. Jenner. Christiana?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Was there a time when both Christiana and your daughter were living in Dallas with you?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Jenner. In your 1957 venture with the International Cooperation—as an agent of the International Cooperation Administration, in addition to Poland, as I understand it, you visited France?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Switzerland?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. Sweden and Denmark.
Mr. Jenner. France, Sweden and Denmark?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Had you in mind, or did you hope during that period, that you would also visit Switzerland, England, Italy, and West Germany?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but I didn't see those countries—I didn't have time to see them. Instead of that, I stayed much longer in Sweden, visiting some distant relatives there.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have any political discussions with any so-called true Communists when you were in Yugoslavia?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Political discussions?
Mr. Jenner. Arguments?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Arguments; yes. Discussions, occasionally. The real argument I had—I think maybe I mentioned it yesterday—was with the head of the Communist Party in Slovenia, who attacked me very strongly for being an American and for the fact that we had this Arkansas case, with Governor Faubus. He was very obnoxious, and I told him that he reminded me of an ultraconservative in the United States—they were both of the same type, very illogical and very biased in their opinions.
Mr. Jenner. Biased and rigid?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but I think in my stay in Yugoslavia, and without taking too much pride in it, I made more friends for the United States than anybody else, because they could—I could explain to them the opportunities given to foreign born in the United States, and how joyful the life is in the States. For instance, I used to explain to them how an independent can drill an oil well with no money. To them it was beyond comprehension. To them it was a miracle that a man like me was able to promote enough money to drill an oil well. For them, it needed endless bureaucracy and enormous amount of papers and all that, and finally the well was drilled, and at an enormous price—when it could have been done very cheaply by purely organizing a small syndicate. And since I had small production of my own, I explained to them how I did that. And it was a fascinating story for them. So I think I did a good job and made a lot of friends, who used to write to me from there.
Mr. Jenner. Did you make a trip to Europe in 1960? At that time, did you plan to leave early in March, March 11, and visit France, Yugoslavia, Italy, England, and Belgium, for a period of 3 weeks, on geological visits?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. There might have been some projects to do that, and it did not materialize.
Mr. Jenner. Maybe this will stimulate you. You, at that time, were at the Statler Hilton Hotel in Washington, D.C.?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In 1960?
Mr. Jenner. March 10, as a matter of fact. Do you remember your passport being renewed on March 11?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Did I go to Europe or not? I don't remember. Maybe I went to Ghana at that time, in 1960 instead of going to Belgium—I went on this consulting job to Ghana.
I don't recall. My wife will recall all that precisely, because she remembers the dates.
I did go to Europe in 1960, because I remember I went to see my little boy in Philadelphia at that time before going to Europe. I was planning to. But my wife will remember all that.
Mr. Jenner. So we can identify you as far as these papers are concerned, is this a fair description of you? That you are a white male, 6'1" tall, brown hair—dark brown hair, blue eyes—do you have a scar on your face?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This scar is an old scar on the right-hand side, I think you can see.
Mr. Jenner. Right-hand cheek?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. On the cheek—it comes from a dog bite in my childhood. And this one is a new one—I got it in Yugoslavia.
Mr. Jenner. That is about the center of your forehead, up top, near your hairline?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. You suffered that in Yugoslavia?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I fell down on a rock with my head—had a few stitches taken.
Mr. Jenner. And your——
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. By the way, I may say—my wife reminded me of it today—regarding the fact that I was taking sketches of so-called Coast Guard in Texas, in 1940 or 1941—of course, which I was not doing, because I was sketching the beach. The same thing happened to me in Yugoslavia, except that this time they were the Communists who thought I was making sketches of their fortifications. Actually, I was also making drawings of the seashore. And this time they shot at us.
Mr. Jenner. Shot?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Shot. And they told me to get away—we were in a little boat. And they kept on shooting at me. And the bullets were hitting the water right around us—until we were away out into the sea. So I made a complaint to the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade, and some kind of an investigation was made. But this is an interesting correlation—that I am accused both by the Yugoslavs and here, also, making sketches. I should abandon making sketches in the future. No more painting.
Mr. Jenner. You have a ruddy complexion, but also you have a dark skin.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Is that a pigmentation, or from being out in the sun?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I spend a lot of time in the sun.
Mr. Jenner. Your brother Dimitri is a naturalized American citizen, is he not?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; much earlier than myself, because I think he came to this country in the early twenties.
Mr. Jenner. The records show he was naturalized November 22, 1926, in the U.S. district court at New Haven, which is where Yale University is located.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. He went to school at that time, to Yale.
Mr. Jenner. Do those facts square with your recollection?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; approximately the right period. I remember he went to Yale with Rudy Vallee—they were roommates.
Mr. Jenner. You mentioned that your brother came over to Europe and was in Belgium while you were still there, just before you came back to this country.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; before I came back for the first time to this country.
Mr. Jenner. That is correct.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Because it is my brother who helped me to arrange my passport and my entrance. He didn't help me financially, but arranged my permit.
Mr. Jenner. To refresh your recollection, the passport records indicate that your brother applied for a passport for a visit in 1936, to visit Poland and France for 3 months, and for the purpose of visiting his family, and collecting material for magazine articles.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Does that square with your recollection?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is about the right time when I first saw him after many, many years—we took a trip together to see our father in Poland.
Mr. Jenner. Now, at that time, he had already completed his work at Yale, had he not?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. He obtained his degree at Yale in 1926?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I don't know what year he completed.
Mr. Jenner. Did he take some additional——
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. He took a Ph. D. at Columbia. But I don't know what year he received his Ph. D.
Mr. Jenner. Well, I would suggest to you it was 1927.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Ph. D. at Columbia? I don't know the year exactly.
Mr. Jenner. Your brother travels relatively frequently, does he not?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he travels whenever he had—whenever he can get away from teaching.
Mr. Jenner. And he is a Ph. D. and a professor at Dartmouth College?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is a full professor at Dartmouth College.
Mr. Jenner. Hanover, N.H.?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. He also is editor of the Russian Review, a magazine.
Mr. Jenner. Didn't he found that?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he founded that magazine.
Mr. Jenner. And what does he teach at Dartmouth?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think he is a professor of Russian culture, Russian civilization, history.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall—is this a description of him: He is a white male, 5 foot 11 inches tall, gray hair, brown eyes?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; very strong brown eyes, very dark brown eyes.
Mr. Jenner. Unlike yours, that are blue?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. He is browneyed.
Mr. Jenner. Did you see your brother when he visited Europe in 1957?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; an amazing thing happened. You know, he didn't know that we were in Europe.
Mr. Jenner. Neither knew that the other was?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Neither knew. And we bumped into each other in the most crowded street in Paris. It is an amazing coincidence.
Mr. Jenner. Does your brother have a mustache?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He used to. I don't think he has now. He may have grown it lately.
Mr. Jenner. Your daughter Alexandra has another given name, hasn't she—Romeyn?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. That is a family name of the Piersons.
Mr. Jenner. She was born April 17—December 25, 1943. We brought that out yesterday.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Christmas Day.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Did you ever know your wife Phyllis' parents, Simone Fleischer—Simone Fleischer Washington and Jack Stecker?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't know her real father. But I met her stepfather—Walter Washington Stecker.
Mr. Jenner. She was the daughter of Simone Fleischer, and was adopted by Walter Washington?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Did you have any contact with the Dominican Embassy in 1958?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In 1958, Dominican Embassy?
Mr. Jenner. The month of April.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I think I was invited to—Dominican Embassy. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Here in Washington?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I was trying to work up some kind of concession, I think. I was working on some kind of oil deal, and tried to contact the Dominican Ambassador—purely for business reasons—some kind of an oil project which had to do with the Dominican Republic.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Have you been in the Dominican Republic in the last—let's say the last 6 months?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I was there several times. No. 1, in March 1963, on my way to Haiti, to sign a contract with the Haitian Government, but spent only one night at the hotel there, between planes. It was necessary to stop there, because there was no right connection. Pan American arranged so that the passengers to Haiti would stop in the Dominican Republic for the night, and then leave the next morning.
Mr. Jenner. Is that the first time you were ever in the Dominican Republic?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is the first time I have ever been there.
Mr. Jenner. When next were you there?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The next time we were with—let's see—yes; we were—my wife and I when we were coming to Haiti, exactly on the same—in the same—the same occasion, to spend the night.
Mr. Jenner. Just spent overnight?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Overnight, and take the plane the next morning, on our way to Haiti in June—I think the first or second of June in 1963. And then just recently, about a week ago, when I went to check on some mining possibilities, and get some information from the Bureau of Mines in the Dominican Republic. And again I went to San Juan, and then picked up my wife, and then brought her back into the Dominican Republic, finished getting the information, and returned to Haiti. And then again on the way to the United States now, just stopping there.
Mr. Jenner. On this present trip?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; just stopping for 20 minutes.
Mr. Jenner. Those have been your sole contacts in the Dominican Republic?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; to the best of my memory—yes; I remember now why I tried to contact the Dominican Embassy in 1957. Somebody told me—I don't remember who—that they needed a consulting geologist in the Dominican Republic, and I tried to contact the ambassador, and never was able to see him.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall commenting, along with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, that you know of no connection that did or could have existed between Lee Oswald and any organization or government because you thought nobody could stand him, and that you questioned his mental stability?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. I remember making that statement. I think it was in Port au Prince that I made that statement.
Naturally anybody—who would—in our opinion, if he killed the President of the United States, he must have been mentally unstable. I could not find any other explanation. Or somebody might have paid him for it. But this is another speculation that came to me later on. But, again, it is purely speculation on our part.
Mr. Jenner. Well, you had no—now that you have made that statement, I have to pursue it.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. By reading the papers, you know—we had no other information. By reading the papers and putting two and two together we started wondering, maybe there is something behind it, you see—especially I remember reading in one of the papers that——
Mr. Jenner. Which papers are these—foreign language papers?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; American papers. We haven't read any foreign language papers. We get the Miami Herald, New York Times, we get Haitian papers, French language papers, of course. And I think in one of those papers it was said that Lee Oswald mentioned to his wife before the assassination that he was going to get some money.
Mr. Jenner. So when you read that article——
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. When I read that article, then the idea started coming—arising in my imagination.
Mr. Jenner. Assuming the article was correct, that Oswald had said to Marina that he was going to get some money from some source?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Jenner. But you knew of no such thing?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr. Jenner. And you had no hint of it while you knew the Oswalds?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; when we knew the Oswalds, they were always in dismal poverty.
Mr. Jenner. When you visited Dallas at the end of May 1963, before you went to Haiti, did you see the Oswalds then?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't think so. My wife will tell you exactly. I don't think we had time to see anybody. We were just packing. As I recall it, I did receive a card, a postcard, from Oswald—I don't remember when—before we left the United States, saying, "We are in New Orleans," and giving the address. And I lost that card.
Mr. Jenner. Did you write a letter to Mrs. Hugh D. Auchincloss in December of 1963?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I don't remember the date, but I did write a letter to her.
Mr. Jenner. From where?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. From Haiti.
Mr. Jenner. You expressed your sympathy to her with respect to the death of her son-in-law, John Fitzgerald Kennedy?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall making this statement in the letter: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald, and especially his wife Marina, sometime last fall."
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. What do you mean by the misfortune to have met Oswald and especially his wife Marina?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, now, since all this happened, it causes—it is not pleasant to have known the possible assassin of the President of the United States. And since he is dead, it doesn't matter. But we still know Marina. We had the misfortune of knowing her—it caused us no end of difficulty, from every point of view.
Mr. Jenner. That is what you meant by misfortune?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and misfortune—also now, when you look the situation over, it was just a misfortune that we helped them, that is all. We shouldn't have done it. We should have known better. And, actually,——
Mr. Jenner. Why should you have known better, Mr. De Mohrenschildt? What was wrong with what you did?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Nothing wrong. But it is wrong that we were charitable to a person who turned out to be an assassin, maybe.
Mr. Jenner. But you wouldn't have been charitable if you had any notion he might have been. So what you did was a spontaneous, normal thing of an outgoing person who wanted to help somebody. Is that a fair statement?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it is correct. But still I regret that I have known him. I shouldn't have been so extroverted.
Mr. Jenner. Do you recall saying in your letter, "Both my wife and I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and sickly."
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is correct.
Mr. Jenner. That is all correct?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And you told me all about that in some detail.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. You also said, if you will recall—"some time last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character."
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. And you have told me about that?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously."
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is exactly right.
Mr. Jenner. "Marina stayed with a family of some childless Russian refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband." You have told me about that course of events.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. And that is what you had in mind?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is exactly right.
Mr. Jenner. Then you comment, "It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country, but there is so much jealousy for success, and the late President was successful in so many domains, and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters, that assassinations are bound to occur. Better precautions should have been taken." Now, let me ask you about the first two sentences.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In my opinion, if Lee Oswald did kill the President, this might be the reason for it, that he was insanely jealous of an extraordinarily successful man, who was young, attractive, had a beautiful wife, had all the money in the world, and was a world figure. And poor Oswald was just the opposite. He had nothing. He had a bitchy wife, had no money, was a miserable failure in everything he did.
Mr. Jenner. Well, do you have a view, perhaps, that this might be a way of this man—of what he thought of raising himself up by his own bootstraps?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Exactly. It made him a hero in his own mind—it made him a hero in his own mind. He did not realize possibly that he was doing it at the expense to the whole Nation. He might have had a mental blackout.
Mr. Jenner. Then you make the comment "better precautions should have been taken."
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is my very strong opinion, that better precautions should he taken by whatever authorities were in Dallas at the time to protect the President.
Now, I do not consider myself an exceedingly—a genius. But the very first thought after we heard that some character was mixed up in the assassination of the President, when we were listening to the radio in the house of an employee of the American Embassy in Port au Prince, and he mentioned that the name of the presumable assassin is something Lee, Lee, Lee—and I said, "Could it be Lee Oswald?"
And he said, "I guess that is the name."
Mr. Jenner. That occurred to you?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That occurred to me.
Mr. Jenner. As soon as you heard the name Lee?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. As soon as I heard the name Lee. Now, why it occurred to me—because he was a crazy lunatic.
Mr. Jenner. Did you think about the rifle you had seen?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Immediately something occurred in my mind—the rifle. Actually, my wife and I were driving from a reception at the Syrian Embassy, where we heard the story of the assassination. We were driving to the house of this friend of ours who works at the Embassy and wondering who could it be. And as soon as we heard that name, some association started working in our minds—and the fact that there was a gun there.
But my opinion—and again—was influenced naturally by what you read and hear in the papers. We were out of contact with people in Dallas, and out of contact with events.
The only thing we could judge is what we read in the papers.
Sometimes you read something like he was going to get some money, and naturally you start thinking that possibly somebody bought him.
Now, we heard, also, that he was getting some regular checks from somewhere.
Mr. Jenner. Where did you hear that?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I read in the papers some place—he was getting regular checks.
Mr. Jenner. That didn't score with your recollection, did it?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I just read that in the papers some place.
Then you read this and that, I am not a detective. It is not up to me to make any conclusions.
Mr. Jenner. This letter was written, I take it—it is dated December 12, 1963. At the time you wrote it you had some of these newspaper articles in mind that were affecting your opinion, were they?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but it contains all the facts——
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Have you looked at the original of that letter?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, it looks to me that this is the original.
Mr. Jenner. That is your signature on the letter?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. You will note it is dated December 12, 1963.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. December 12, 1963.
Mr. Jenner. Would you look at the envelope that is attached to the letter. Is that envelope addressed in your handwriting, or does it have any of your handwriting on it?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; it is printed.
Mr. Jenner. Typed?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Typed, yes.
Mr. Jenner. And is that the envelope in which you dispatched that letter?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it looks like that envelope.
Mr. Jenner. What is the date of the stamp cancellation?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. December 13, 1963.
Mr. Jenner. Where?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. It was sent from Haiti, this letter.
Mr. Jenner. Yes; that is your letter, and you dispatched it?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, you say in that letter, after expressing your sympathies to Mrs. Auchincloss, and your very kind comments about Mrs. Kennedy, "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives, and that the stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt."
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Exactly.
Mr. Jenner. Now, please explain that remark in that letter.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Unless the man is guilty, I will not be his judge—unless he is proven to be guilty by the court, I will not be his judge, and there will be always a doubt in my mind, and throughout my testimony I explained sufficiently why I have those doubts. And mainly because he did not have any permanent animosity for President Kennedy. That is why I have the doubts.
Mr. Jenner. And that expression in this letter is based on all the things you have told me about in this long examination?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. A natural, I would assume, view on the part of any humanitarian person—that you just cannot imagine anybody murdering anybody else?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And he in turn had been murdered.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And his trial would never take place?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr. Jenner. And on the basis of what little you knew, you had lingering doubts?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Exactly.
Mr. Jenner. Not because you felt that anybody else might have been involved?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no.
Mr. Jenner. And you had no notion of anybody else, and no information of anybody else being involved?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No information.
Mr. Jenner. I want to give you an opportunity to explain that fully.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I have no information whatsoever, except what you hear now living in Port-au-Prince from the foreigners who read foreign papers. And, of course, they are all of the opinion that Oswald did not kill the President, that there was a plot, that there was—that somebody else was standing on the bridge, there was a car there on the bridge from where they were shooting, that there were four shots—and all those things are discussed all day long in Haiti right now, in the colony of foreigners—Embassy people and businessmen who live in Haiti, most of them Europeans, of course. They discuss it all day long.
Mr. Jenner. And they are confining their judgment to what they read in the papers they receive from their homeland?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Purely; yes—purely. As you know, there are sensational articles being published right now in Europe on that subject.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you know of no supposed facts that you have read in these foreign language newspapers, do you?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Do I know what?
Mr. Jenner. You don't know if there is any merit one way or another?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't know of any merit one way or the other.
Mr. Jenner. And this remark of yours in the letter to Mrs. Auchincloss was not intended to imply that?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; it was not. It was purely based on whatever was expressed in my testimony. And I think it will be fair to say that I will have that lingering doubt for the rest of my life.
Mr. Jenner. You may have an opportunity to read the Commission report, which I assume you will.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I wish you the best of luck.
Mr. Jenner. You wrote Mrs. Auchincloss again, did you not, in February 2, 1964?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I hand you the envelope and letter. Do you identify those as being the letter you sent to her and the envelope in which the letter was enclosed?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it is exactly the letter I have written.
Mr. Jenner. This letter leads me then into your Haiti venture. Tell us about it. How did that arise, when did you first think about it?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I started doing geological work in Haiti in 1956, I think, the first time, where I worked for some Haitian people connected with the Sinclair interests in Haiti.
I worked up a geological prospect for oil and gas drilling in the northern part of Haiti, and we were able to sell the projects to a company in Tulsa, and finally the deal fell through because of the Cuban situation.
In other words, the company did not want to drill in Haiti because of the expropriations going on in the Caribbean area. And the next time then I was in Haiti, as I explained before, after our trip——
Mr. Jenner. That is the trip you made down there, Mexico and the Central American countries?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes—in 1961—and started preparing this project from then on.
Finally the project came to fruition in March 1963, and we left for Haiti—at the end of May 1963.
Mr. Jenner. You made a trip to New York City before you went to Haiti, did you not?
Mr. Jenner. The first part of May 1963?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. About 2 weeks?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; New York, Philadelphia, Washington.
Mr. Jenner. Visited your daughter?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Visited my daughter. And also was in Washington preparing for the eventuality of this project, checking with the people, Bureau of Mines, and so forth.
Mr. Jenner. Is there a gentleman by the name of Tardieu whom you were attempting to interest?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; he is actually interested, and he is a Frenchman living in Haiti, who was instrumental to an extent in getting this contract.
Mr. Jenner. I hand you a document which we will mark "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1."
(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1" for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. It appears to be a piece of promotional literature issued in connection with the Haiti venture.
Am I correct about that?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, the upper portion is in French. Would you favor me by reading first that which is on the left, and then that which is on the right?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is a very long article. A magnificent success for the Commercial Bank of Haiti. The result of a trip——
Mr. Jenner. That is a headline?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Headline.
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Shall I make a short resume of that?
Mr. Jenner. I would prefer—can you translate that literally?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "The recent trip to the United States of America by Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, the active president and manager general of the bank, Commercial Bank of Haiti, has constituted a magnificent success for this banking establishment which is prospering right now.
"In reality, during one of the most amicable ceremonies, the assistant mayor of New York, Mr. James O'Brien, has given to Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles the keys of the city of New York in the name of Mayor Wagner, who was at that time in Europe.
"The dinners and lunches have been offered in honor of Mr. Clemard Charles, namely, by the American Express, Patent Resources, Inc., and the Hanover Trust Co. A short contact with Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles has permitted us to obtain certain information for the readers. The active president and director general of the Commercial Bank of Haiti has been able to conclude an important contract with one of the largest financial companies in New York which does business in the millions of dollars. This enterprise guaranteed by the Import-Export Bank, the Chase Manhattan Bank, and the Bank of America, will make possible to the Haitian importers of American merchandise through the Commercial Bank of Haiti the credits of unlimited amounts for 6 months and longer periods.
"One other financial society which specialized in the real estate business which does business for some $150 million per year, will start through the intermediary of the Commercial Bank of Haiti a program of construction of houses whereby the credit will be given for 10 years.
"A system of insurance will cover the construction and a house will be given as a reward for the clients of the enterprise. Our country will be benefited with important advantages because of the interesting contracts taken by Mr. Clemard J. Charles in New York. The president and the director general of the bank will take soon the plane for Canada and Mexico in order to follow on these important contracts which will be very favorable to our economy, and will permit the Commercial Bank of Haiti to be of further advantage to the people of Haiti."
Mr. Jenner. You have read the two columns appearing under that heading that you described.
Now, would you read the column to the right of those two columns?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "Mr. C. J. Charles, honorary citizen of the city of New York. Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, president and director of the Bank Commercial of Haiti, Port-au-Prince, has come back yesterday morning with his charming wife, Sophie, from a trip of 2 weeks in New York, and was accompanied by Mr. James R. Green, vice president of the Manufacturers Hanover Trust Co., which is a large bank of Wall Street, New York.
"Mr. Green spent just a few hours in the capital, just sufficient time to visit the Commercial Bank with which Hanover Trust Co. wants to do business. Mr. Charles is very satisfied from the contacts which he has made during this trip, and satisfied with the promotion of his commercial bank. The Haitian banker was honored by Mayor Wagner of the city of New York, and has made his assistant, Mr. O'Brien, give the key of the city as an honorary citizen, to Mr. Charles."
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that "George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1"?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This is by the way the photograph of a paper.
Mr. Jenner. This is a photostat of two news items in the Haitian paper in Port-au-Prince, together with a telegram.
Now, all those together comprised, did they, some of the promotion literature with respect to your Haitian venture?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. In what respect? Can you give us the thrust of that?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In the respect that they acquaint the possible investor with the personalities involved.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Who is the gentleman who sent the telegram?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Mr. Tardieu.
Mr. Jenner. What is his first name?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Mr. B. Juindine Tardieu, who is the agent and you might say a broker who negotiated the contract with the Haitian Government.
Mr. Jenner. Well——
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is domiciled in Haiti.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, you had some correspondence with Clemard Joseph Charles?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Is the letter I now hand you, which we will identify as George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2, a photostatic copy of correspondence between you and that gentleman, a copy of which you transmitted to Paul Raigorodsky?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that is the letter I received.
(The document referred to was marked "George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2" for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Now I will show you a series of three documents, the first sheet consisting of a photostat of an envelope addressed, I believe in your handwriting, to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky; is that correct?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. In Dallas.
The next being a personal note of yours in your longhand to Mr. Raigorodsky; is that correct?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Jenner. The next being in the form of a copy of a letter from you, dated July 27, 1962, to Mr. Jean de Menil.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. In which you have written in the upper right-hand corner in your handwriting, "Copy for Mr. Raigorodsky."
Is what I have said correct?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And lastly, there appears to be promotional literature, one sheet, dated August 1, 1962, signed by you at the bottom?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Jenner. And on your letterhead—George De Mohrenschildt, Petroleum Geologist and Engineer, 1639-40 Republican National Bank Building, Dallas 1, Tex.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, would you mark those in the record, I have given them to you, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6."
(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6" for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. In addition to those materials, did you also transmit to Mr. Raigorodsky two additional documents which I have in my hand—one a photostatic copy of a Western Union telegram, dated August 3, 1963, from Tardieu to you, and the second document a copy of a letter of yours to the gentlemen I mentioned a moment ago, Mr. Jean de Menil; dated August 7, 1962, upon which there appears some handwritten notes of yours to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, mark those documents, if you will, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16."
(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16" for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. On September 12, you appear to have transmitted some additional materials to Mr. Raigorodsky. I hold in my hand three documents.
The first, a photostatic copy of an envelope, with your letterhead in the upper left-hand corner, your Dallas office, addressed to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky.
The second, a letter signed "George and Jeanne" over a typewritten signature, "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt."
Is the George and Jeanne in handwriting your handwriting?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And this letter is dated September 12, 1963. You transmitted that letter to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Jenner. In the envelope we have just identified. And did you also enclose the third document, which is a diagram of——
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Of the planned development in Haiti.
Mr. Jenner. And it has in the lower left-hand corner in longhand "Credits available for these industries—George De M., Dallas, September 11, 1963." Is that your handwriting?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Jenner. Did you also send Mr. Raigorodsky a map of Haiti, in which you—excuse me.
Mr. Reporter, would you mark the three documents I have just identified as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10.
(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10" for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, identify the next document as De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11.
(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11" for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of the record, it is the description map of Haiti. This is a map published by the Texaco Co., and it is available to anybody who wants to pick up a map at a gasoline service station, is it not?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. It is not a fancy geologist's map, for example?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr. Jenner. Did you send that to Mr. Raigorodsky?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Jenner. There is some longhand on it, do you see that?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And is that your longhand?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. In the upper right-hand corner——
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It shows the possibility for——
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. I just want you to read the words, and not elaborate. I am going to have you elaborate on them. There is in the upper right-hand corner first near the letter "A" of "Atlantic," an arrow pointing to the left, to a small island. What are the words there?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "New resorts."
Mr. Jenner. And then to the right of that inscription, there are three lines of words, and an arrow pointing to an area in which I see the word "Caracol." Read those words.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "New resort, Chou-Chou Beach."
Mr. Jenner. All right.
Now, in the lower left-hand portion of the upper right-hand quadrant there appears an inscription with an arrow pointing to "Mont Rouis." And then below that, over what appears to be a series of islands encircled, there appears more writing.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "Oil possibilities on this island."
Mr. Jenner. All right. Do the words "on this island" appear?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. Just "oil possibilities."
Mr. Jenner. I am just getting the wording first, and then I will have you explain it all later.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "Our Shada concession."
Mr. Jenner. Now, the words "Our Shada concession" are the words at the lead end of the arrow which points to Mont Rouis, which you have already identified in the record.
Now, to the extreme right, and at the margin, opposite the inscriptions we have just described, there is some more writing. Would you read that?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "Brown and Root built this dam."
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, there is an encirclement around—between the two we have identified, but above—it looks as though the center of this island here—there is an inscription. This appears in the area—there is an X there—an airplane indication Hinche and there is some writing. What is that?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "Oil possibilities."
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, Port-au-Prince is encircled. Then at the bottom, which is the lower right-hand quadrant, there is an arrow pointed to Pationville. And that arrow leads to some handwriting.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "Ibolele Hotel."
Mr. Jenner. Now, to the left of that inscription, and in the center of the map, the lower half, there is an encirclement that encircles an area, the chief town of which appears to be what?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Lescayes.
Mr. Jenner. And what is written there?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "Oil possibilities."
Mr. Jenner. Now, I guess we have gotten everything you have written on there. Now, with those papers, would you proceed to tell us now about your Haitian venture, and take those papers, since they seem to be in some order of sequence as to time, and tell us all about it.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well——
Mr. Jenner. In other words, this venture is no mite, is it?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. It started—it already started by my previous work there in 1956. It is the result of many trips I took to Haiti in the meantime. And it is a result of an effort which started in 1961.
I have in my possession a letter from the minister of mines which—
Mr. Jenner. Of what country?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Of Haiti. Dated in 1961, giving me an opportunity to present a geological survey of Haiti.
Mr. Jenner. What was that to be for?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This was to search and study the oil and gas and all the mineralogical points of the whole country.
Mr. Jenner. Did this have anything, any purpose or intent, other than a legitimate effort on your part, on behalf of the Haitian Government, to you as a petroleum engineer and geologist, to discover in Haiti mineral deposits that might be of economic value to Haiti, and to those who might be willing to risk their capital to develop it?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This is the only purpose I have—purely business promotional project.
Mr. Jenner. And this is in no way linked, directly, indirectly, or in any remote possibility, with any mapping of this country with great care for the possibility of its being employed by any other nation or group?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; no other nation could use my maps, and no other project, except our own commercial and geological project—nothing else.
Anyway, the whole Island of Haiti has been mapped in complete precision by the U.S. Government already, and the maps are available right here in Washington. And my office in Port-au-Prince, actually they are officers of Inter-American Geodetic Survey.
On one side is the American representative of the Geodetic Survey, and on the other side I am doing my geological work in the same building. He helps me with some of his equipment, some of his advice, some of his maps, and we pursue our own work there.
I employed in the last 8 months since we have been in Haiti an Italian geologist who came specially to Haiti from South America, with all the equipment, and stayed with us for several months. I employed a Swiss assistant. I employed—I am employing an American geologist right now, recommended by the University of Texas, who is living in Haiti with his family, and whose salary I am paying; I am responsible for him.
I have also, in addition to that, employed a prospector from Alaska, an American. And I am employing a group of Haitian engineers and geologists—engineers, not geologists, because they don't have geologists. Engineers. And it is a project which—for which the Haitian Government is supposed to pay me $285,000, out of which they pay $20,000 in cash, and the rest they are paying from the interest in the sisal plantation at Mont Rouis.
This plantation started to be operated jointly by Mr. Clemard J. Charles, president of the Commercial Bank of Haiti, and myself; and now Mr. Charles is operating it for me, doing all the administrative work, and I am pursuing my geological work.
Up to now, we found some things which were indicated on the map here.
Mr. Jenner. I don't want you to reveal any business secret, because I appreciate—all I am getting at is the general description of the project, and its good faith.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. I hope that this will be sufficiently justified in good faith.
Mr. Jenner. And these documents we have identified are documents which you sent to Mr. Raigorodsky with what thought in mind?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. With the thought of having him eventually participate in various enterprises which may come out of it.
Mr. Jenner. Such as?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Such as development of small industries, development of oil production, development of new hotels and new resorts, et cetera. Because the country is open to new business and I think has excellent opportunities for American investments.
Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, you have expressed an opinion, have you not, as to the activity or lack of activity on the part of the FBI in connection with the assassination of the President?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I think that they should have sent away from Dallas every suspicious person, like any other country would do—when somebody—when an important figure arrives to town, and there are deranged people, or people who have habits of shooting guns at targets or ones who have been traitors to their country to some extent, you know—any controversial people should be not necessarily put to jail, but sent away from the town.
Mr. Jenner. And you have Lee Oswald in mind, do you?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I have Lee Oswald in mind.
Mr. Jenner. You assume that the FBI was aware that he had this weapon, and he was target practicing with it?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I do not know, whether they had that knowledge of the weapon. But it is not for me to judge them. But I think they should have known. If they didn't know, they should have known.
Mr. Jenner. And I take it your opinion, whether they did or did not know of the weapon, they had other information with respect to Oswald's attempted defection and matters of that nature which you feel——
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They must have had that information.
Mr. Jenner. And as an American citizen, it is your view that they should have done what?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think they should have—in my opinion, they shouldn't have let him come back to the United States—No. 1.
And No. 2, the people like us should have been protected against even knowing people like Oswald. Maybe I am wrong in that respect.
Mr. Jenner. Well, it is an opinion. That is all I am asking you for.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And thirdly, Oswald was known as a violent character, especially in the last time. He was known, as I read from the papers, that he participated in pro-Castro demonstrations in New Orleans. That is what I read in the papers. And so therefore, he should have been kept away from Dallas when the President was there.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, would you mark the Auchincloss letter, dated February 2, 1964, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12 and 13, respectively?
(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12 and 13," for identification.)
Mr. Jenner. And the Auchincloss letter of December 12, 1963, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15, respectively.
(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15," for identification.)
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. All these contracts in Haiti have been made official by an act of Congress of Haiti on March 13, 1963, and signed by the president of the country and by all the ministers, stipulating that the price of the geological survey would be $285,000, and the consideration for it will be the concession of the sisal in Haiti, originally an American company called Shada, built by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and developed during the war, and later on sold to the Haitian Government. This concession is given to me for the duration of 10 years, with an extended duration of 10 years more. I think that will explain it.
Mr. Jenner. Fine.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I could talk for hours about this project, because it was developed through so many years, and so much effort.
Mr. Jenner. In order that the correspondence be complete, Mr. De Mohrenschildt has produced for me the response he received to his letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt, since it is a personal letter, I will ask you to read the letter in evidence. It has a longhand note on it. You might want to keep the original. So just read it. And just for the purpose of the record, and not because I suspicion you, I will watch you read it.
It is on letterhead, 3044 O Street, Northwest, Washington, D.C.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is correct.
"Dear George:
"Thank you for your letter and for your sympathy for Jacqueline. Please accept my deepest sympathy in the loss of your son. How tragic for you.
"It seems extraordinary to me that you knew Oswald and that you knew Jackie as a child. It is certainly a very strange world."
Mr. Jenner. Hold it a minute. The second paragraph begins with the words "It seems."
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "You did not say why you were in Haiti, so I imagine that you are in our Foreign Service. If you come to Washington again, I would like to talk with you, and I would very much like to meet your wife. When you next write to Dimitri, will you send him my warmest regards, and thank him for his sympathy."
Mr. Jenner. Dimitri is your brother?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, there is a longhand note.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
"I live now in Georgetown. Your letter has made me think a good deal. I hope too—that Mrs. Oswald will not suffer.
"Very sincerely, Janet Lee Auchincloss."
Mr. Jenner. Dated?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Wednesday, January 29.
Mr. Jenner. All right. You just keep that original.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Thank you.
Mr. Jenner. I show you what purports to be a transcript of a Christmas card, 1963, allegedly transmitted by you, appearing at page 3, Commission Document 703-F. Would you read it, please?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This paragraph?
Mr. Jenner. The whole card.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Best wishes for 1964, George and Jeanne De M.
"Alex is in New York State, supposedly working at some mental hospital. Gary Taylor takes care of Cousin Lil. Nancy is alive, still kicking. We are happy here. Appalled at the crimes in Dallas.
"George."
Mr. Jenner. You transmitted that Christmas card with that inscription?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Now, would you explain your statement, "appalled at the crimes in Dallas"?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I mean the assassination of the President and subsequent assassination of Lee Oswald by Ruby, and the assassination by Oswald of this policeman—three assassinations, one after another.
Mr. Jenner. All right. By the way, did you ever see Jack Ruby in the flesh?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Never; no. On TV you mean?
Mr. Jenner. No.
Did you know him when you were in Dallas?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection, had you ever seen him when you were in Dallas?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Don't recall.
Mr. Jenner. Was his name ever mentioned at any conversation that took place in the presence of Lee Oswald while you were present?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Never.
Mr. Jenner. Was at any time there any conversation, or did anything occur while you were in Dallas to lead you to believe directly or indirectly, or to any degree whatsoever, that Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, sir; not one indication.
Mr. Jenner. Did anything occur in Dallas by way of any statements to you, statements made in your presence, or anything you noticed or saw, that would lead you at any time while you were in Dallas, to lead you to believe that Lee Oswald was ever in the Carousel Club in Dallas?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr. Jenner. Did you try to interest Mr. Kitchel in your Haiti venture?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. And he did not join?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr. Jenner. That was a friendly gesture on your part, was it?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. I am pleased to say to you that he so regarded it.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am glad to hear that.
Mr. Jenner. That he thought you were in good faith, offering him an opportunity to participate, and you were not thinking in terms of any business advantage.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no.
Mr. Jenner. And that is the fact; is it?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; of course. I offered this project to quite a few people, and it so happened that at the time they were afraid of Haiti, and I am very happy to say that I am now the sole proprietor of the whole project. It may be all for the best.
Mr. Jenner. I will show the witness pages 4, 5 and 6 and 7 of Commission Document No. 542. I wish to direct your attention primarily to the—what purports to be a letter from you to Mr. Kitchel, setting forth the background of information on a holding company that you were developing in Haiti. Would you read the letter?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "Haitian Holding Company."
Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. It may already be in evidence.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "August 1, 1962."
Mr. Jenner. I think not—but if you will hold a minute. What I have just shown you is a copy of De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir; this was followed, of course, by many other letters and correspondence with our prospective investors and people who might be interested in a mining development of Haiti.
I am negotiating right now with an aluminum company for the development of bauxite, and with oil companies in regard to development of oil possibilities.
Mr. Jenner. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, we have had some discussions off the record, and I had lunch with you a couple of times. Is there anything that we discussed during the course of any off-the-record discussions which I have not already brought out on the record that you think is pertinent and should be brought out?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember any.
Mr. Jenner. None occurs to you?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr. Jenner. Now, I don't know everything by any means. I will ask you this general question. Is there anything else, despite all our careful investigation, and my questioning of you at some length, that you think is pertinent and might be helpful to the Commission in its important work, and if you can think of anything, would you please mention it?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Frankly, I cannot think of anything else you could do. All the rest—what else can you do except investigate as much as you can?
Mr. Jenner. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you appear here voluntarily and at some inconvenience?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenner. And on behalf of the Commission, and the Commission staff, I want to express our appreciation to you for having come to this country, at some inconvenience, and your answering my questions here for 2 days spontaneously and directly. Some of them have been highly personal. But you have exhibited no discomfiture because they have been personal. We appreciate your assistance and your help.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I hope I have been helpful to some extent.
Mr. Jenner. Now, as I spoke to you yesterday, you have a right to read your deposition, and to sign it, and you told me I think yesterday that you would like to read it over.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. If it won't be a very lengthy job and very hurried job to do that, and inconvenience the reporter. I think I have said everything I could know. I don't think I could add or change very much. It is all right as far as I am concerned.
Mr. Jenner. As far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive the necessity of reading and signing?
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr. Jenner. Fine.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt. If I made a mistake, it was involuntary. I might have missed a date or something. But I did to the best of my ability.
Mr. Jenner. We will have your deposition by tomorrow. And Mrs. De Mohrenschildt will be here tomorrow.
If you would like to come over and read it, you may. Otherwise, if you don't return to read it, we will consider that you have waived it.
I offer in evidence the exhibits I have heretofore marked, being De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 1 through 16, inclusive.