TESTIMONY OF HUNTER SCHMIDT, JR.
The testimony of Hunter Schmidt, Jr., was taken at 4:20 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. Liebeler. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Schmidt. I do.
Mr. Liebeler. Will you please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present should you wish to have one. And you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing, should you wish to insist upon it. And you are entitled to all privileges in terms of not answering questions that you would have in any other proceeding. I assume that you are prepared to proceed at this point without an attorney, since you don't have one here?
Mr. Schmidt. I don't think that it would be necessary.
Mr. Liebeler. Would you state your full name for the record?
Mr. Schmidt. Hunter Schmidt, Jr.
Mr. Liebeler. What is your address?
Mr. Schmidt. 1118 Osceola Trail, Carrollton, Tex.
Mr. Liebeler. When were you born?
Mr. Schmidt. September 12, 1933.
Mr. Liebeler. Give us your educational background.
Mr. Schmidt. Tyler High School, Tyler Junior College; I have a B.A. from Lamar Tech, and I am working on my masters at SMU.
Mr. Liebeler. In what? In journalism?
Mr. Schmidt. No; in government. Two courses and a thesis away.
Mr. Liebeler. I understand that you are presently employed by the Dallas Times Herald, is that correct?
Mr. Schmidt. That's right.
Mr. Liebeler. And you work for them in the capacity of?
Mr. Schmidt. County editor.
Mr. Liebeler. County editor. What do you do as county editor?
Mr. Schmidt. I cover, or well you might say my beat is everything in Dallas County outside of the city of Dallas, and parts of Eastern Tarrant County. That is roughly some surrounding towns, and I take care of the general news coverage in that area.
Mr. Liebeler. At the request of the President's Commission, the Federal Bureau of Investigation conducted certain investigations into the facts surrounding a story that appeared in the November 28, 1963, edition of the Dallas Times Herald.
Mr. Schmidt. Thanksgiving Day; that's right.
Mr. Liebeler. The story related to the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald had had a telescopic sight mounted on a rifle at a sports shop in Irving, Tex.
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. It is my understanding from reviewing the FBI report, that you were the reporter that wrote that story?
Mr. Schmidt. I gathered facts for the story and gave the facts to the rewrite man who wrote the actual story, but they were from the facts that I gathered. We were checking out several, running down all clues and all possible reports at that time. Anything that might be a lead to the story, we checked out. We checked out many many things of that nature, and that was just one of the tips that I checked out.
Mr. Liebeler. Where did you first get information that Oswald had had a scope mounted on his rifle at this Irving sport shop?
Mr. Schmidt. We heard of it, I think it was around the police station somewhere. I don't remember where that exact tip came from. We heard that a gunsight had been mounted by a man named Ryder, and they thought at first it was Garland.
Mr. Liebeler. You mean Garland, Tex.?
Mr. Schmidt. Garland, Tex.; that's right. Since that was my beat, well, they gave me the tip to check it and I checked it in Garland and found out that there wasn't any Ryder listed in the city directory and so forth, so I did it by process of elimination and checked several towns, and I found, well, I came to rest on Irving, because I found the Ryder there listed as the sports shop man, and I just took it that that was the gunsmith.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall whether Ryder, when you checked the city directory, that Ryder was listed as being associated with a gunshop, or did you just find the name Ryder and call him?
Mr. Schmidt. I don't remember exactly what I found in the city directory then. It was a process of elimination, and apparently that looked like the only one in Irving, so I checked that.
Mr. Liebeler. Now, did there come a time when you called Mr. Ryder on the telephone?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes; this was Thanksgiving morning. In fact, that is the same morning I got the tip. After the process of elimination, I called Ryder and it was early that morning. I called out there, and a woman answered the phone, and he apparently had gotten out of bed, from the time it took. He sounded sleepy on the phone and so forth. So I talked to him then on the phone and asked him about the information I got for the story.
Mr. Liebeler. How long did you talk to him on the phone about that?
Mr. Schmidt. Oh, I am just guessing. I would estimate 15 minutes or roughly thereabouts.
Mr. Liebeler. What did he tell you?
Mr. Schmidt. He told me—I asked if he had a customer—now this is a tip we got, that this Ryder mounted a scope for a customer, and the customer's name on the ticket with the gun was Oswald. And he confirmed on the phone that morning. And the reason I took it as the truth was because I didn't think a fellow would get out of bed early and make up a story half asleep and fabricate a story that early in the morning, and get out of bed on a holiday. He told me that he had a ticket with the name Oswald on it, that it was a foreign-made rifle, that he did put the scope, bored the holes and sighted it in. I asked him if he bought any ammunition, and he said no; he didn't. I think he said he didn't remember him buying any ammunition. He then gave me the prices for the mounting of the scope, $1.50. I think he said he bored three at $1.50 a sight, and $4.50 for the boresighting—I mean for the hole drilling. And $1.50 for the sighting in of the rifle. And let's see, after he gave me the prices and everything, I just took it as pretty authoritative, because I didn't know that much about rifles.
Mr. Liebeler. Now, you say that Ryder told you that he believed that the rifle was a foreign make; is that right?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes; I asked him what kind it was. He said he didn't remember for sure, but he said he believed it was a foreign-made rifle.
Mr. Liebeler. Did Ryder say anything about the fact that he was sleepy and had not slept well the night before?
Mr. Schmidt. No, I don't believe he mentioned that.
Mr. Liebeler. You have no recollection of that? Did Ryder tell you what boresighting was, or did you know about that?
Mr. Schmidt. No; I might have gotten that mixed up in the story. Some of the people who know more about rifles than I do said that wasn't exactly correct. The boresighting was explained in the story, but I did the best I could with the information I had there.
Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any conversation with Ryder about the significance of the term boresighting?
Mr. Schmidt. Not that I remember. This boresighting thing came up—there is a fellow down there that knows something about rifles, and I mentioned boresighting, and then there was a conversation with the rewrite man that took the facts I had and added to the story. The top of the story is the story I got from Ryder, and the other part of the story were some other tips that had been run down and other parts of the story we pieced together about the general investigation and so forth.
Mr. Liebeler. What was Ryder's attitude when he talked to you on the phone that morning?
Mr. Schmidt. Well, it was just a man giving information, as far as I was concerned. He wasn't antagonistic or anything. It was just a matter of facts, I would say.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember telling the FBI about this?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes.
Mr. Liebeler. Petrocas from Oklahoma; an FBI agent?
Mr. Schmidt. I am not sure.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember telling him that Ryder was cordial and invited you to get in touch with him again?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes; he did. I think he said get in touch with him again if I wanted to, I am not too sure, but it was that type conversation. He wasn't antagonistic. As a matter of fact, it was like you would get a story from anybody. Nothing apparently controversial about it.
Mr. Liebeler. The FBI report that I have also indicates that the agent says that you told him that Ryder did explain to you in detail the significance of the term "boresighting." Do you recall telling the agent that?
Mr. Schmidt. I don't remember for sure. That was back, I guess, in May. I don't remember any detail about the boresighting, but I remember him mentioning boresighting.
Mr. Liebeler. This FBI report indicates that on the evening of November 28, 1963, which was the same day that you had talked to Ryder, you saw a taped television interview?
Mr. Schmidt. A denial. He denied the story that he had given me that morning. But the thing that, immediately after I saw that, I called one of the fellows on the paper. I think it was Charlie Dameron or Ken Smart or one of my immediate superiors, and told him I thought the story had something behind it because they didn't mention the ticket, they didn't mention about the name Oswald on it, in the denial, and they didn't mention the cost of doing this.
Mr. Liebeler. It did not?
Mr. Schmidt. It did not, as best I remember, mention the cost of doing that, and didn't mention the ticket. It just said he denied the report that he put the sight on the rifle.
Mr. Liebeler. Now, according to this report that I have, and it says, "Schmidt advised that while at his address the evening of November 28, 1963, he observed a taped television interview on a 10 o'clock news of CBS television, in which Ryder denied furnishing any of the information to a Dallas Times Herald reporter as set forth in the article which had appeared in the newspaper that day."
Mr. Schmidt. Right. About that 10 o'clock, I was guessing that that was the 10 o'clock news. I did see a television denial of that, and I am just guessing that it was the 10 o'clock news. It was CBS, because I know I remember it was. It had to be CBS because I believe, and I am not sure about that 10 o'clock, because the best I can remember, it was Walter Cronkite reading the denial, and if it was Walter Cronkite, it couldn't have been the 10 o'clock news, because I don't think he was on then. In any event, I did see the television denial of it, and I am pretty sure it was CBS.
Mr. Liebeler. And Ryder actually appeared on the television taped program, at that time; did he?
Mr. Schmidt. I am trying to remember that. I just remember the denial clearly on television. I wouldn't swear to Ryder being on the television tape.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember for sure that Ryder denied furnishing any information to a Dallas Times Herald reporter?
Mr. Schmidt. In that interview he denied having done, having mounted a scope on the rifle, and he denied the story in the Times Herald, is what he was doing in essence. And he said he just didn't do it, is what he said on that, or what the story on the television said.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether or not he specifically denied having told that story to a Dallas Times Herald reporter?
Mr. Schmidt. No; I don't remember if he specifically said that in essence. I remember the denial being credited to Ryder. As best I can recall now, the denial being credited to Ryder.
He said he denied the story in the Times Herald, that he did thus and so, that he mounted the scope. Now I am trying to remember back from what I saw on that television, because now I understand he has denied to his boss later on.
His boss had talked to our people at the Herald. He denied to his boss later on, and his boss talked to us and said that he denied to him talking to anybody from the Times Herald.
Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever talk to Greener (Ryder's boss) about this?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. Tell us about that.
Mr. Schmidt. On the phone.
Mr. Liebeler. Tell us about that.
Mr. Schmidt. He called. He was very cordial. He called in and he said that—this is after he had talked to somebody else, as I understand it.
Either he called in, or I called him. We got together on the phone, and I told him that I talked to the man Thanksgiving morning and got those facts from him. And he said that the guy denied the story, and that was in essence what was said. I told him I didn't know why he denied it or anything, unless he figured that it might not go over very well with the public.
Mr. Liebeler. Did Greener know about this work that had supposedly been done on Oswald's rifle, when you called him?
Mr. Schmidt. I don't remember discussing that, whether he knew about the work or not. But I remember pointing out the fact that in the denial that I heard on television, that the ticket and the cost and all that wasn't mentioned. And as I have said, I didn't know that much about rifles, and I told the man I couldn't make up that much about it.
Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember Greener telling you that he was completely unaware of any of the information that was set forth in the article that appeared in the paper on November 28, 1963, until after he had been contacted by a CBS television reporter that afternoon, and that was the first time that he read it? That he, Greener, had learned any of the facts about this whole thing?
Mr. Schmidt. I believe he said something to that in essence.
Mr. Liebeler. Did you ask Greener why Ryder had denied talking to you and giving you the information?
Mr. Schmidt. Did I ask Greener why Ryder denied it?
Mr. Liebeler. Yes; as I understand, the sequence went something like this. You talked to Ryder on Thanksgiving morning, and he gave you all the information and you wrote the story that came out in the paper.
Mr. Schmidt. Right.
Mr. Liebeler. And that night you saw on television a program on which Ryder in general denied ever talking to you, or denied the story that was printed in the paper?
Mr. Schmidt. Right.
Mr. Liebeler. And I understand shortly after that time you called Greener?
Mr. Schmidt. I believe it was the next day.
Mr. Liebeler. You said to Greener, what is going on. Did you ask him why Ryder denied the story that he had previously given you? That is my question now.
Mr. Schmidt. I could have very well. I do remember talking to Greener and telling him that, I am sure, I got the story from Ryder that Thanksgiving morning, and I told him the reasons I thought that it was a factual story because, as I said before, about getting up early on a holiday, and the ticket with the name Oswald on it, and the cost and everything.
Mr. Liebeler. Now did Greener ever tell you that Ryder had told him, Greener, that he had never talked to a reporter from the Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. Schmidt. I believe Greener said that Ryder said that he hadn't talked to anybody, as best I can remember. I think he did.
Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever talked to Ryder at any other time except on the morning of Thanksgiving, November 28, 1963?
Mr. Schmidt. No, sir; I wouldn't know him if he walked in this room now.
Mr. Liebeler. Have you had any other possible source of information for this story? Did you talk to anybody in the Dallas Police Department about it?
Mr. Schmidt. About the mounting; no, sir.
Mr. Liebeler. How about the FBI?
Mr. Schmidt. No, sir; I got all those facts from Ryder.
Mr. Liebeler. You got those facts from Ryder?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes, sir; nowhere else did I get any information. I thought that was getting it from the horse's mouth. If I thought there was anything phony about it, I would have told the city editor about it.
Mr. Liebeler. Had you given consideration to the reason for Ryder denying having talked to you? He denied talking to you, he denied it to the television reporter, and furthermore, he has denied it to me under oath.
Mr. Schmidt. Well, he would have to deny it under oath, but like I say, I wouldn't have any reason to fabricate the story. I didn't get any extra compensation for it. I got paid the same thing if I hadn't gotten the story, if it had been a complete hoax.
Mr. Liebeler. Well, I think you got the information for the story somewhere. I don't think there is any question about that. But isn't it a possibility that you might have gotten the information from some other place, a confidential source of information that you would rather not disclose? Wouldn't that be a sufficient reason to say you got the story from Ryder?
Mr. Schmidt. No, sir; I had no reason to fabricate anything about Mr. Ryder. I don't know the man. I have nothing against him. I just have a story, and I will stick by that story we had in the paper. But the only thing possible that I would be willing to retract any part would be some details of how you do the boresighting. But I don't know that much about rifles as to why he would deny it, except that he possibly could have thought that wouldn't go over too well with the public, "Here I mounted a sight on the gun that killed the President." Many people would think—he never told me that this was the gun that Lee Harvey Oswald used on the President. He said a customer with a ticket on it that said Oswald, and I believe I asked him what Oswald looked like, and I don't think he could put the face with the ticket, if I remember correctly.
I believe I asked him that, but I wouldn't have any reason to fabricate anything. And the man I was looking for was the man who mounted the scope. After I got that with these other bits of evidence behind it, or evidence in my mind, probably circumstantial, but to me it seemed like human nature.
Mr. Liebeler. It was enough evidence to justify writing a newspaper article?
Mr. Schmidt. I think so, and we try to be factual. I think we have tried to be very factual and very honest on this thing.
At this time you see we were getting things that were hoaxes that was full of holes, and I wouldn't have any reason specifically to inflate this.
Mr. Liebeler. Well, you are absolutely firm in your position that on the morning of Thanksgiving you did call Ryder and you did talk to him and did get from him the basic facts about the gun, ticket, and the boresighting and the drilling of the hole?
Mr. Schmidt. Absolutely. Like I say about the boresighting. I got the boresighting statement and details that I didn't know about. But I did get the cost. I got the ticket with the name Oswald on it, that he mentioned in the story, the statement about the ammunition. He didn't buy any ammunition that he could remember.
Mr. Liebeler. Let me say this to you. We are faced with a situation where Ryder has denied under oath the statement that you have just affirmed under oath. It is perfectly clear that somebody is not telling us the truth.
Mr. Schmidt. Obviously.
Mr. Liebeler. What I would like to do in order to try to determine who is telling the truth about this question is have you come in here tomorrow evening at about 7:30 or so when Mr. Ryder is going to be here again to testify before the Commission. After I discuss this with Mr. Ryder, by myself, for a while, I would like to bring you into the room and I would like to have you and Mr. Ryder see if you can't iron out this apparent inconsistency in the two stories.
Mr. Schmidt. It is perfectly fine with me.
Mr. Liebeler. Then you are willing to do that?
Mr. Schmidt. Yes.
Mr. Liebeler. At this point, we will suspend Mr. Schmidt's deposition until such time as we resume tomorrow in the presence of Mr. Ryder. And needless to say, of course, you will hold in complete confidence the request that I have made of you now until after we have our meeting with Mr. Ryder?
Mr. Schmidt. That will be fine with me.
Mr. Liebeler. I would be very unhappy if I found it in the newspaper before Ryder gets here.
Mr. Schmidt. Is it free knowledge after that, though?
Mr. Liebeler. That is something that is entirely up to you, I suppose. I don't know if the Commission would request you not to write a story about it. I would like to talk to Washington, and even if we request you not to write a story, that is all we can do.
Mr. Schmidt. Well, we have tried all the time to cooperate with people. If there is anything other than that you want me to do, if you have a polygraph test, I will be perfectly willing to submit to it.
Mr. Liebeler. Have I mentioned a polygraph test?
Mr. Schmidt. No; but I would be perfectly willing to submit to that.
Mr. Liebeler. That is something that we will take under advisement after we see what happens with regard to Mr. Ryder tomorrow.
Mr. Schmidt. Perfectly fine with me.