TESTIMONY OF ANDREW ARMSTRONG, JR. RESUMED
The testimony of Andrew Armstrong, Jr., was taken at 9:12 a.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. Hubert. Mr. Armstrong, you recall that day before yesterday we recessed the taking of your deposition because it was getting late in the day?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And we made an appointment to continue it today at 1:30, but that was changed again to 9 o’clock?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. That’s satisfactory with you?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you understand that what we are going to do today is simply a continuation of the deposition that was begun the other day; you understand that?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. That I am acting under the same authority, that you are here in the same way that you were here before, and that you are under the same oath that you were under when you testified before?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Except there has been a recess just like there was on Tuesday when we recessed for lunch?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Only this recess has been a little longer?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. Mr. Armstrong, when we left off the other day, you had been examining a number of pictures which had been marked for identification as Exhibit 5303, and I believe that you had examined all of the pictures in that series except those marked for identification as Exhibits 5303-J, K, L, and M. Now, I show you, first of all, the picture identified as Exhibit 5303-J, and ask you if you recognize what place is pictured there?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s the Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mr. Armstrong. I recognize the girl standing on the stage.
Mr. Hubert. You mean the girl with the dark skirt, light sweater, and with long tresses?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. The picture shows only the back of her?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, she is right back of the microphone?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is that girl?
Mr. Armstrong. Tammi True.
Mr. Hubert. Who is the man just in front of her, right in the center of the picture, leaning over?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s a customer; I don’t know who he is.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t know who he was?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Had you ever seen him before?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody else in that picture?
Mr. Armstrong. Just the M.C. standing back by the girl, but I can’t recall his name.
Mr. Hubert. When you say “the M.C.,” you are, referring to the person in that picture whose head stands between Tammi True and the customer you have identified and actually right above the top of the microphone?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. He was an M.C.?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t know his name?
Mr. Armstrong. I can’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. Was that Wally Weston?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Who followed Wally Weston; do you know?
Mr. Armstrong. Sal Vincent; he followed Wally Weston, and this guy followed Sal Vincent.
Mr. Hubert. It that Bill DeMar?
Mr. Armstrong. No; I don’t think so.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when Sal Vincent left?
Mr. Armstrong. Sal was only there 2 or 3 weeks. In other words, you could say the last part of—during the last part of September, I would say.
Mr. Hubert. That was Vincent, you say?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; Sal Vincent.
Mr. Hubert. Then he left, you mean, in the last part of September?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. He was there about 3 weeks?
Mr. Armstrong. About 3 weeks.
Mr. Hubert. And Wally Weston had been there before him?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. How long had Weston been there?
Mr. Armstrong. Wally had been there since about June 1062.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, he had been there about 15 months when he left?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And he was following Sal Vincent?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And Sal Vincent stayed 3 weeks, until about the end of September?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And this man you have identified as the M.C. in Exhibit 5303-J took his place?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And he stayed how long?
Mr. Armstrong. He stayed about a month, I would say; he stayed about a month.
Mr. Hubert. Would you say that he stayed until about November 1 or later?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I would say he stayed about that.
Mr. Hubert. And who followed him?
Mr. Armstrong. Bill DeMar.
Mr. Hubert. And how long did Bill stay—Bill DeMar stay?
Mr. Armstrong. Bill DeMar stayed up until after the assassination.
Mr. Hubert. And how long had Bill DeMar been there when the assassination took place?
Mr. Armstrong. 3 weeks—3 or 4 weeks, I guess.
Mr. Hubert. You think that Bill DeMar came in there about the 1st of November?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And that he took the place of Sal Vincent?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes—no—no, he took the place of this man right here [indicating picture].
Mr. Hubert. That man?
Mr. Armstrong. The man I can’t identify.
Mr. Hubert. He took the place of the man whose name you can’t remember, in Exhibit 5303-J, but whose name you don’t remember?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. If you do happen to remember his name a little later on, will you interrupt me and tell us about it?
Mr. Armstrong. All right.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody else in that picture, identified as Exhibit 5303-J?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. All right, then I show you a picture which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5303-K, and I ask you to look at it.
Mr. Armstrong. All right [examining instrument referred to].
Mr. Hubert. Do you know what the place is?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, that’s the club—I’m sure of that—I’m sure that that is the Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody in it at all?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; the waitress in the upper right-hand corner.
Mr. Hubert. The waitress in the far background in the upper right-hand corner, whose profile can be seen, and also her left arm—she seems to have a white blouse on, right?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. She is standing by a picture frame or a window or something, correct?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is that?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s our little Margie—her name is Margie.
Mr. Hubert. Margie what?
Mr. Armstrong. Margie Norman.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody else?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. I’m marking with an arrow, which I am placing my initials on, and I ask you to place your initials on next to that arrow too, and the arrow points to a man about in the center of the picture at the bottom, and he has on what appears to be a grayish checked shirt—you can see him by profile—he parts his hair on his left side. Do you know who that man is?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Have you ever seen him before?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. And you recognize nobody else in the picture?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you pictures marked for identification as Exhibits 5303-L, and ask you if you recognize the place, first?
Mr. Armstrong. It’s the Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert. Who is on the stage holding the mike?
Mr. Armstrong. Jack Ruby.
Mr. Hubert. Who else is in the picture that you recognize?
Mr. Armstrong. No one else.
Mr. Hubert. I show you another picture which has been identified as Exhibit 5303-M, and ask you first if you can identify the place?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is the man on the stage holding the mike?
Mr. Armstrong. Jack Ruby.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you a picture which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5304-A and ask you to look at that picture and tell us, first of all, if you recognize the place?
Mr. Armstrong. No, I don’t.
Mr. Hubert. Is it the Carousel Club?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. How do you know it is not the Carousel; how do you distinguish it from the Carousel?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, the whole picture—it’s definitely not the Carousel.
Mr. Hubert. Did the Carousel have that kind of furniture?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did it have a bar?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did it have a bar with liquor bottles on it like that one does?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did it have chandeliers like that?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize any person in that picture?
Mr. Armstrong. No, I sure don’t.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know the man sitting at the table in the foreground of the picture who is being served a drink by a girl in costume?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Have you ever seen him at the Carousel?
Mr. Armstrong. I don’t remember him.
Mr. Hubert. Have you ever seen him anywhere?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. What about the girl who is serving him the drink, do you recognize her?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. You have never seen her any place?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, do you see a man in the picture near the bar who appears to be the bartender?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. You mean you don’t see him?
Mr. Armstrong. I see him, but I can’t see him too clear—I don’t recognize him.
Mr. Hubert. Did you know a man by the name of Mike Ryan?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Is that Mike Ryan?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. You are certain that it is not Mike Ryan?
Mr. Armstrong. Positive.
Mr. Hubert. Who was Mike Ryan?
Mr. Armstrong. He was just a—he came in—the first time I ever met him he was with Jack, and he was sort of a lone wolf sort of on the go all the time.
Mr. Hubert. Did he come around the Carousel very much?
Mr. Armstrong. At one time—I would say it was within a period of a couple of weeks he was around there quite often.
Mr. Hubert. When was that period of a couple of weeks that he came around there very often?
Mr. Armstrong. I don’t recall—it was during last summer.
Mr. Hubert. You mean the summer of 1963?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Would it have been when Wally Weston was there?
Mr. Armstrong. It was when Wally Weston was there.
Mr. Hubert. Did he come after that?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. But not as often?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear of Ruby and him discussing anything?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes, I guess, business.
Mr. Hubert. What was that?
Mr. Armstrong. They were discussing business.
Mr. Hubert. They were discussing business?
Mr. Armstrong. Jack was always discussing some kind of business with somebody—he always had some kind of idea about another club or another kind of business.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know what kind of business he was discussing with the man you have named as Mike Ryan?
Mr. Armstrong. A private club.
Mr. Hubert. You heard such a conversation?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You mean another private club in addition to the Carousel?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, the Carousel wasn’t a private club.
Mr. Hubert. Oh, I see; so in other words, the thought was to open a private club?
Mr. Armstrong. Just talk though.
Mr. Hubert. And talk is all you would know about?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes. I mean—it was just one of Jack’s wild ideas, that’s all.
Mr. Hubert. Why do you characterize it as a wild idea?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, he always had these ideas—it was something this day and something the next day.
Mr. Hubert. But the only reason you are saying this was a wild idea is because you are thinking it was like some of his other wild ideas?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. But other than that you don’t know whether it was a wild idea or not?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know of any other business between Ryan and Ruby?
Mr. Armstrong. No; no more.
Mr. Hubert. Did they go out socially?
Mr. Armstrong. Not that I know of.
Mr. Hubert. Have you seen Ryan since the assassination?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Where?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, he came up to the club a couple of times and I saw him the day he left for California, at least that’s where he told me he was going.
Mr. Hubert. When was that?
Mr. Armstrong. It must have been around the first of December.
Mr. Hubert. You mean it was right after Oswald was shot?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You haven’t seen him since?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you what business he had in California?
Mr. Armstrong. No, he didn’t.
Mr. Hubert. How many times after Oswald was shot do you suppose you saw Ryan in the Carousel?
Mr. Armstrong. A couple of times, oh, two or three times.
Mr. Hubert. Did he talk to you about Ruby and what had happened?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; no more than anybody else did. He said, everybody would always ask me, “What’s wrong with your boss?” And he said the same thing.
Mr. Hubert. Did you know a man by the name of Tommy, who used to go out with Joy Dale, kind of a boy friend of hers?
Mr. Armstrong. A baseball player?
Mr. Hubert. I don’t know.
Mr. Armstrong. Well, there was a guy that used to bring her to work sometime, so she said, but I never saw him, and he came up and worked—handled the door sometimes for Jack, he did, and they would always sit down and talk together—he and Joy Dale.
Mr. Hubert. Now, after Oswald was shot and you remained on, and Mr. Paul began to operate the club, did Mr. Paul get anybody to handle the front door?
Mr. Armstrong. Leo Torti handled the front door most of the time.
Mr. Hubert. How old a man was he?
Mr. Armstrong. I take he was in his late forties.
Mr. Hubert. Did he have a little gray in his hair?
Mr. Armstrong. A little gray.
Mr. Hubert. He handled the door?
Mr. Armstrong. He handled the door.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see him and this man Torti we are talking about sitting together?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; Tommy always sat close to the door.
Mr. Hubert. He handled the door sometimes himself?
Mr. Armstrong. Sometimes; himself.
Mr. Hubert. All right. I show you a picture that has been identified as Exhibit 5304-B and ask you if you can recognize the place that is pictured in there?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Is it the Carousel?
Mr. Armstrong. No; it is not.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know any of the people who are pictured in that picture?
Mr. Armstrong. No; I sure don’t.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I will show you a group of photographs which have been identified as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong, Exhibit 5305-A through 5305-S.”
All of these also bear an Exhibit No. 5225, April 10, 1964, deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I will ask you to look at them, starting with Exhibit A and see if you recognize what those pictures show?
Mr. Armstrong [examining pictures referred to]. This picture here shows——
Mr. Hubert. That’s the first one, and that is Exhibit 5305-A, is it not?
Mr. Armstrong. It shows the back of a 10-cent notebook.
Mr. Hubert. The back of whose notebook?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, I can’t identify that because I don’t know—it could be anybody’s notebook.
Mr. Hubert. It appears to you to be a 10-cent notebook, because it says “10 cents” on the front of it?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see a book which had a back and front like that which appears in the picture, Exhibit 5305-A?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Where?
Mr. Armstrong. Lots of places.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see any at the Carousel?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see any in Jack Ruby’s possession?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did Jack Ruby have one that had a back and front like the one in the picture, Exhibit 5305-A?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. He did not?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. You mean he did not, or you don’t know?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, he could have—I never saw it.
Mr. Hubert. You never saw it?
Mr. Armstrong. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Now, would you look at the rest of those pictures, just taking them as they are and putting them face down, and see if you recognize any of the writings or names or anything else in those pictures?
Mr. Armstrong. This is Jack’s handwriting.
Mr. Hubert. You recognize Jack’s handwriting—in which ones?
Mr. Armstrong. In all of them that I have seen.
Mr. Hubert. That’s in all of them that you have seen so far?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, at the time you made the remark that you recognized Jack’s handwriting, I think you were on the picture that is identified as Exhibit 5305-B. You had also looked at Exhibit 5305-C?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now I ask you to look at the whole bunch and tell us if they are in Jack’s handwriting or not?
(Mr. Armstrong examines instruments referred to.)
Mr. Hubert. Now, you’ve gone through the whole series of photographs and, which are photographs of pages of books that have been identified as Exhibit 5305-A through Exhibit 5305-S, and I ask you if you can tell us whose handwriting is in those books?
Mr. Armstrong. It appears to me that it is Jack’s handwriting.
Mr. Hubert. There’s a lot of it that is in print, isn’t there?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize that?
Mr. Armstrong. Especially the print.
Mr. Hubert. His print—you recognize his prints?
Mr. Armstrong. We both printed more than we wrote.
Mr. Hubert. You have seen his print before?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. It’s your opinion that that is his print?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see the book before—the original of which these exhibits are pictures?
Mr. Armstrong. No; he always had a little notebook, but it was one that opened—not to pull the page up, but opened just like a regular book, you know, a little small book about 2 inches by 1½ inches—just a very little small book.
Mr. Hubert. Now, as you went through these pictures, Exhibits 5305-A through 5305-S, did you recognize any names or numbers or addresses?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, I saw Little Lynn’s name there and I saw Tom Palmer’s name.
Mr. Hubert. Tom who?
Mr. Armstrong. Tom Palmer.
Mr. Hubert. Who is Tom Palmer?
Mr. Armstrong. He’s one of the union agents—he was the Dallas union agent for the AGVA.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize any other names?
Mr. Armstrong. I wasn’t looking at the names—just mostly handwriting.
Mr. Hubert. Perhaps you had better go through and look at them with the names in mind and take them one by one and tell us any names you can recognize in anyway.
The first one is Exhibit 5305-A, and that’s the cover. No. 5305-B is the one—now, if you recognize anything, stop so that we can identify the exhibit number of the picture that you recognize.
Mr. Armstrong. I recognize the name “Vegas Club” on the top of that.
Mr. Hubert. You are talking about Exhibit 5305-D. Is there any significance to you other than that you recognize the name “Vegas Club” on that exhibit?
Mr. Armstrong. Just that they have some figures there for tax, which is the usual procedure of putting them down—the usual way.
Mr. Hubert. Just go on and if you have no recognition of any picture, just pass it without comment.
Mr. Armstrong. I recognize the print on this as excise tax for the Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert. What exhibit are you talking about—is that Exhibit 5305-H?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Any significance to that recognition other than you recognize this, sir?
Mr. Armstrong. I recognize what it means—I recognize the name Tom Palmer and his home phone number.
Mr. Hubert. Your comment is directed to Exhibit 5305-H, is that correct?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I recognize the name Bro. Bear.
Mr. Hubert. You are referring to Exhibit 5305-M, and you recognize a name on it?
Mr. Armstrong. Bro. Bear.
Mr. Hubert. [Spelling.] “B-r-o. B-e-a-r” and underneath that is “Service” and then there is a telephone number—LA 8-1767.”
What do you recognize about that?
Mr. Armstrong. Just the name Bro. Bear.
Mr. Hubert. Who was he?
Mr. Armstrong. He was an entertainer at the Vegas Club.
Mr. Hubert. What kind of entertainment did he do?
Mr. Armstrong. I think he sings and he played some instrument—I don’t know which.
Mr. Hubert. Was he ever at the Carousel?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. I see a name on that same Exhibit 5305-M, “Bertha Cheek,” do you recognize that name?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t know of any person by that name?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. I also see on this same Exhibit No. 5305-M at the bottom of the page, Bob Litchfield [spelling] L-i-t-c-h-f-i-e-l-d.
Mr. Armstrong. I have heard the name but I don’t know who it is.
Mr. Hubert. Whose handwriting is that entry in?
Mr. Armstrong. Whose handwriting is that in—I’m not going to say that that’s Jack’s, because his handwriting—I can’t tell too much about that.
Mr. Hubert. You can’t be sure that that’s Jack’s handwriting?
Mr. Armstrong. No; not the writing, but the printing I could—if it was printing I could—the numbers look like it.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know who Bob Litchfield was?
Mr. Armstrong. Bob Litchfield; Bob Littlefield.
Mr. Hubert. Littlefield; it is?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Oh, I’m sorry—I was reading it wrong—perhaps that is right, this says [spelling] L-i-c-h-f-i-e-l-d.
Mr. Armstrong. That’s a magazine—let’s see—I don’t know. It was the “Around Town” magazine, I think it was the Littlefield “Around Town” magazine.
Mr. Hubert. That was a man called Bob Littlefield?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And you read the name here at the bottom of the page as “Littlefield”. Let’s put it this way—you have already told us about a man named Bob Littlefield—what do you know about a man named Bob Lichfield here?
Mr. Armstrong. Nothing.
Mr. Hubert. Nothing at all; you never heard of him?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Would it make any difference to you that he might have been known as Bill Lichfield?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. You didn’t know a Bill Lichfield?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. All right; go on.
Mr. Armstrong. No; I recognize the man—I recognize the name “Little Lynn.”
Mr. Hubert. You are talking about Exhibit 5305-S?
Mr. Armstrong. And it has her phone number.
Mr. Hubert. You say you recognize “Little Lynn,” you have already testified about her, I believe?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you two pictures that have been marked for identification as Exhibits 5306-A and 5306-B, each of which purports to be pictures of three memo slips, and ask you if you recognize them?
Mr. Armstrong. No; I can’t.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know whose handwriting they are in?
Mr. Armstrong. It doesn’t look like Jack’s handwriting.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize any names or telephone numbers on those memo slips?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. You have looked at all six of them?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Have you read the messages that each contained?
Mr. Armstrong. Oh, yes; here’s one—I think——
Mr. Hubert. Now, you are talking about the memo slip on the right-hand side of the pictures as you look at it, the picture having been identified as Exhibit 5306-B. Now, will you comment on that?
Mr. Armstrong. All right.
Mr. Hubert. I had asked you whether the message meant anything to you. You seemed to indicate that the message on the picture I have described does indicate something to you, and now I ask you what does it indicate?
Mr. Armstrong. No; I’m sorry. I made a mistake—it doesn’t, but this one here, the one in the center, I think that’s Palmer—Tom Palmer.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you are referring to the middle slip on the picture identified as Exhibit 5306-A, and you say the message there you recognize; right?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What makes you recognize it?
Mr. Armstrong. The telephone number and the name.
Mr. Hubert. Now, the memo slip that you are talking about, and I repeat for identification, that it is the middle memo slip on Exhibit No. 5306-A, apparently is addressed to Ruby because it has his name there, although one can see in the picture, can’t one, that there was a word that looks like somebody started to write “Armstrong” and then stopped—right—or something?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And the date is 11-14 at 3:40, and then there was printed “while you were out Pauline [spelling] P-a-u-l-i-n-e phoned, FE 7-5992.” It looks like.
And then there is a checkmark in the block “telephoned” and a checkmark in the block “please call” and the message is: “This one I couldn’t tell if she was colored or white,” is that correct?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you identified that with Palmer?
Mr. Armstrong. It looked like it.
Mr. Hubert. Well, if you were mistaken, say so?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I was mistaken.
Mr. Hubert. Do you have any recollection of that message now?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Was there any that you had any recognition about, any one of the six memo slips on the Exhibits 5306-A and 5306-B?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I will show you an exhibit that has been identified as Exhibit 5307-A. It is a picture of one slip of paper, and I ask you if you could identify that?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. All right; now I show you photostats of a number of pages in a book, which have been identified the other day when you first were here: “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibits 5308, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong,” and I ask you to look at all those pictures first, and tell me if you recognize that book at all?
Mr. Armstrong. I’ve already looked at them.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize it?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What about it do you recognize? What book was that?
Mr. Armstrong. This is a little notebook that Larry carried around and took messages on and wrote checks, phone numbers, and things down on.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see it before?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Where?
Mr. Armstrong. At the club.
Mr. Hubert. Where was it at the club—where was it kept?
Mr. Armstrong. Larry kept it in his pocket, although, when he left, he left it there with him.
Mr. Hubert. He left it where?
Mr. Armstrong. He left it at the club.
Mr. Hubert. He left it with you?
Mr. Armstrong. No, no; he just left it at the club.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, when you came back to the club, the day after Larry left, to clean up, I think you found some other things of his and you found that too?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Or, did you find that at another time?
Mr. Armstrong. Not that same day. No; I didn’t find it then—it was later.
Mr. Hubert. When did you find it?
Mr. Armstrong. Sometime after the club opened back up—I don’t know whether it was Monday or Tuesday—whatever day the FBI’s came up this day, I found this.
Mr. Hubert. Where was it?
Mr. Armstrong. It was in the room where he slept.
Mr. Hubert. Did you find it on the same day that you found the letters?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I think so.
Mr. Hubert. They were together?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And you turned them over to the FBI?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I think you said you have looked over that book already—the other day?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Is there anything significant about that book you wish to comment upon?
Mr. Armstrong. No; I can recognize a few names in it.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall if they were names of any people that you have not so far mentioned in your deposition?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I think——
Mr. Hubert. All right; I would like you to go through and pick out the names of the people that have not yet been discussed by you as part of your deposition.
Mr. Armstrong. Here is a name—Mike Shore—I’ve heard it before—I think he is an agent.
Mr. Hubert. That’s on the first page, right?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; and here is a name—Abe Kleinman—which is the accountant.
Mr. Hubert. That’s on the second page?
Mr. Armstrong. The name Earl Ruby, that’s Jack’s brother.
Mr. Hubert. That’s on the second page?
Mr. Armstrong. The name Doris and Peggy, on the second page, which they had called for to apply for jobs.
Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to them?
Mr. Armstrong. No; Larry did himself.
Mr. Hubert. How do you know, then, that they had called to apply for jobs?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, he told me—he wrote the name down and it was the day we were looking for waitresses, and he give me the numbers, and I didn’t reach them as they were not at home or something, and the name Bill DeMar.
Mr. Hubert. Who was he?
Mr. Armstrong. He’s an M.C.—the name Mike Ryan.
Mr. Hubert. I think you have already talked to us about Mike Ryan, haven’t you?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. All right.
Mr. Armstrong. The name Little Lynn—I have already talked to you about that. Here’s a name—Bobby Patterson of—I’ve heard of, I don’t know him.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see him?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. What have you heard about him?
Mr. Armstrong. Nothing—I just heard the name—I forget what he was connected with.
Mr. Hubert. Let the record show that the witness is looking over the pictures, and that as he has any comment, he has been asked to make such comment without further questioning from me.
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I recognize the back of the notebook.
Mr. Hubert. What about the back of the notebook.
Mr. Armstrong. I just recognize that that’s the notebook that belonged to Larry.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you a document which is described as a photostatic copy of some sort of a notebook which has been identified as follows: This page is marked, “Dallas. Texas, April 14, 1964,” which is when your deposition began, “Exhibit 5309-A, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong,” and I have signed it.
Let the record show also that this exhibit is also marked “Washington, D.C., Deposition of C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5302, April 9, 1964,” and under which appears the name of Mr. Burt Griffin.
This exhibit consists of nine pages. There is typewritten on the front of it, “Notebook number 1,” found on the left-hand bottom of the exhibit, and the number “(1)” and then on each of the subsequent pages there is typewritten there at the right-hand side, “No. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9,” in that sequence.
I ask you if you can identify that document? Now, look the whole thing over and we will do it in this way. I want you to look it all over first and tell me without making any comment, and then tell me whether you identify it or not.
Mr. Armstrong [examining instrument referred to].
Mr. Hubert. All right, now you have looked over all of these pages, and first I ask you whether you recognize the book at all?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize the handwriting or printing in it?
Mr. Armstrong. I believe once—one time a long time ago Jack had a notebook like this.
Mr. Hubert. Can you say now whether the one you think he had a long time ago is shown in these photostatic pictures?
Mr. Armstrong. It must be, because my old telephone number is in there.
Mr. Hubert. Your recognition of the book, though, is not based on an actual recognition now, but an assumption, isn’t it?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You really can’t recognize that as Jack’s handwriting or have a distinct independent recollection of having seen the original of which those pages are photos?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I’ll ask you to do as you have done with the last exhibit, and that is to look over each page and see if you recognize any name or number? If you do not, pass to the next page. If you do, stop and tell us what page it is on and then make what comments you have to make.
Mr. Armstrong [examining instrument referred to]. First, I’ll say I believe that is Jack’s handwriting.
Mr. Hubert. Well, now, a moment ago you said you couldn’t be sure—have you changed your mind?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What caused you to do that?
Mr. Armstrong. Certain letters here that I know his way of printing.
Mr. Hubert. Now, go on with the examination of each page as I have asked you to do.
Mr. Armstrong. The name Bill Willis.
Mr. Hubert. What page are you talking about—that is typewritten at the bottom of page 4—right?
Mr. Armstrong. At the bottom of page 4.
Mr. Hubert. What name?
Mr. Armstrong. Bill Willis.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is he?
Mr. Armstrong. He was a drummer at the club.
Mr. Hubert. When was he a drummer at the club?
Mr. Armstrong. Ever since I been there.
Mr. Hubert. Was he there until the place closed?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, he was there almost 2 years?
Mr. Armstrong. He was there longer than that.
Mr. Hubert. Did he and Jack get along all right?
Mr. Armstrong. They got along better than anybody else.
Mr. Hubert. What evidence did you see to support that conclusion on your part?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, Bill Willis was one of the few guys that I ever heard Jack say was a nice guy—continuously.
Mr. Hubert. Was—so, your assumption that they got along better than anyone else is based on what Jack told you about him?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And that was that Jack continuously said he was a nice guy?
Mr. Armstrong. He liked him and everybody else did, because he is really a wonderful person. I recognize my phone number and the name “Andy.”
Mr. Hubert. That’s on page 4?
Mr. Armstrong. On page 4—I recognize the name “Wally Weston.”
Mr. Hubert. That’s on page 6?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s on page 6. I have heard Jack mention the name Joe Cook.
Mr. Hubert. That’s on page 6, too?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you know Joe Cook?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. What did Jack have to say about him?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, he just mentioned him in his business—I’ve forgotten what it was.
Mr. Hubert. When did he mention Joe Cook?
Mr. Armstrong. I can’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. Would it have been shortly after you got there, towards the end, or about the middle of the time you were there?
Mr. Armstrong. I don’t know—I couldn’t say. I recognize the name Peggy Steele.
Mr. Hubert. That was on page 8—who was Peggy Steele?
Mr. Armstrong. She was a stripper that was booked there for about a month.
Mr. Hubert. How long ago—what period of time was she there?
Mr. Armstrong. I don’t know—it was sometime about the fall of 1962, I would say.
Mr. Hubert. She was there for about a month?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. After she left, did you ever see her?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Was she ever around the club any more?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. That was the fall of 1962, not 1963; is that correct?
Mr. Armstrong. 1962—yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you have gone through all of the pages 1 through 9 of Exhibit 5309-A, and I understand that you have made all the comments that you have to make about any of the entries on those various pages, and that is to say that you made a comment as to any name that had any significance to you at all?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And if you have not commented on the name, that means that the name has no significance to you?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. I am going to ask you to do substantially the same thing with another document that I am handing you that has been identified, “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964,” and this was marked for identification on your last appearance. It is marked as Exhibit 5309-B, “Deposition of Andrew Armstrong.” I have signed it. The document consists of 20 pages. It is a photostat of an original, apparently. It has written in type “Notebook No. (2), page 1,” on the first page, and then on each of the subsequent pages there are numbers running from 2 to 20.
I would also like to have the record note that this exhibit has also been marked as “Exhibit 5204,” relative to the deposition of C. L. Crafard.
I would like you first of all to look through all of the pages for the purpose of a general identification, after which I am going to ask you to go over each page as you did the previous document.
Mr. Armstrong. [Examining instrument referred to.] Okay.
Mr. Hubert. Let the record show that the witness is examining each page of the exhibit.
Now, you have looked at all of the pages of that Exhibit 5309-B, and you have identified it all?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes—no—well, yes, I have looked at it but I haven’t identified it.
Mr. Hubert. Well, we’ll put it this way—have you ever seen the original of which this exhibit is a series of pictures?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. You have never seen that address book, or whatever it is?
Mr. Armstrong. I don’t remember seeing this—now, I could have, but I don’t remember it.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t remember ever having seen it at all?
Mr. Armstrong. Let me make this statement.
Mr. Hubert. All right, go ahead—you wish to make a statement?
Mr. Armstrong. Jack kept a number of little books and little pieces of paper wrapped up with a rubber band in his coat pocket and whenever he got ready to look for anything he would take it out and run through it, take out one of those little books, which I didn’t pay any attention to it—this could be one of the little books he had.
Mr. Hubert. But you do not recognize it?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. And you don’t believe you have ever seen it before?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I will ask you to go over each individual page and if there is any entry or name that has any significance to you or that you recognize in any way, stop and identify the page and then make your comment. If, as you turn the pages over and examine them you have no recognition or the entries are not significant to you, then your silence as to each page will mean precisely that.
That is to say, that those entries mean nothing to you.
Mr. Armstrong. [Examining instrument referred to.] I recognize the name Sam Ruby.
Mr. Hubert. That’s what page—the page you are referring seems to be unnumbered—an unnumbered page, but it is the third page back from the one that is numbered 20, is that correct?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is Sam Ruby?
Mr. Armstrong. Jack Ruby’s brother.
Mr. Hubert. Was he around the club much?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever meet him?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you meet him before Oswald was shot?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How did you meet him?
Mr. Armstrong. I met him at the club.
Mr. Hubert. How many times?
Mr. Armstrong. Three or four times.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever speak to him?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What about?
Mr. Armstrong. Oh, nothing—he would tell me about his business.
Mr. Hubert. When was the last time you saw him prior to the assassination?
Mr. Armstrong. The last time I saw him was at the trial.
Mr. Hubert. When was the last time you saw him prior to the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. Armstrong. I can’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. All right, did you see any other names that you recognized in that exhibit?
Mr. Armstrong. No others.
Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Armstrong, the other day I asked you to read a number of reports which purport to be reports by agents of the FBI of interviews of you?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you read them at that time?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Those were marked for identification the other day as follows:
“The interview by Special Agent Lish and Wilson, dated November 26, as Exhibit 5310-A,” consisting of two pages; the interview on November 27, consisting of one page, which was identified as Exhibit 5310-B; the interview of December 9, 1963, consisting of one page was identified as Exhibit 5310-C; and another interview of December 9, 1963, consisting of one page and which is identified as Exhibit 5310-D; the interview of December 13, 1963, consisting of one page and was identified as Exhibit 5310-E; the exhibit of December 19, 1963, was identified as Exhibit 5310-F; and exhibit dated January 22, 1964, was identified as Exhibit 5310-G, and it consists of four pages.
I have signed my name on the margin of the first page and my initials at the right-hand bottom of all the other pages.
I think you have read these various exhibits carefully the other day, did you not?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, if my recollection serves me right, it took you about an hour or so, did it not, to do so; is that correct?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Do you wish to look them over again?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Well, I’m going to ask you a question, and if you do wish to look them over again, in the light of my question, please say so, because you will be allowed to do so?
Mr. Armstrong. All right.
Mr. Hubert. What I want to know is whether or not these various Exhibits 5310-A through 5310-G are fair reports and correct reports of the interviews with the various agents of the FBI on the dates dated?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you notice anything that was incorrect?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes—not in this, but in the statement that I made day before yesterday.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you mean that when you say something was incorrect—you mean you said something was incorrect the other day?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Well, we’ll get to that in a moment, but before we do, let’s dispose of these Exhibits 5310-A through 5310-G.
As far as you know, and you have read them, there is nothing in those exhibits that is incorrect?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. It represents the truth as you know it and as you told it to the FBI agents?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you say that there was something that was incorrect the other day that you said while in the course of your deposition?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Will you tell us what that was, please, sir?
Mr. Armstrong. When you asked me what time did I leave the club on Saturday night.
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Mr. Armstrong. I said 8 o’clock and in the report here it says 9, and after I read the report, I remembered that it was 9 o’clock when I left the club.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, the correction you want to make, then, is not in the FBI report but in your own testimony?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Your memory has now been refreshed by the report and you actually recollect that your time of departure from the club on Saturday night?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Was 9 o’clock rather than 8 o’clock?
Mr. Armstrong. Everything was right but the time.
Mr. Hubert. Everything you said there was right except the time?
Mr. Armstrong. Except the time.
Mr. Hubert. And you wish to correct your previous testimony insofar as you stated that you left at 8 o’clock, so that the record will show that in fact you left at 9 o’clock on Saturday night?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. November 23?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And you are telling me the reason you wish to make that correction is because of what?
Mr. Armstrong. Because I remember that after reading the statement that it was 9 o’clock when I left.
Mr. Hubert. Now, do you have an independent recollection of having left at 9 o’clock instead of 8 o’clock, or are you simply relying upon what the FBI record shows you must have told them?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, no; it just brought back to my memory that it was originally set at 8 o’clock that I was going to leave. Then, before Jack left, he said, “Why don’t you make it 9” and I didn’t want to, but I said, “Okay,” and that’s when we got in the argument over the telephone and he wanted me to stay on until 10.
Mr. Hubert. And at that time I thought you said you went ahead and left anyhow at 8 o’clock?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, 1 did, but I went ahead and left anyway at 9 o’clock.
Mr. Hubert. So, you were in error the other day when you said that after the argument with Jack you went ahead and left at 8, the time you had agreed upon anyhow?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. He wanted you to stay until 10?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You had agreed to stay until 8?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And you actually stayed until 9; is that correct?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Armstrong, have you ever been interviewed before you met me by any member of the President’s Commission?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, of course, you have testified before me for a whole day now, almost a half clay, and necessarily there have been some conversations between us that have not been on the record, not purposely so, but simply at recess time.
Mr. Armstrong. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. But, even including everything that has occurred, all conversations between us at recess time or going down the elevator or one thing or another, is there anything that we discussed at those recess times which you can remember has not been brought up and recorded in this deposition?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, we haven’t discussed anything concerning the business that we was discussing on the record.
Mr. Hubert. Well, you mean we might have discussed things unrelated to this inquiry?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, I’ll just put it this way—I don’t think we have discussed anything.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t have any recollection of anything at all that we have discussed?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. And in any case, if we might have discussed anything, it has been brought out on this record?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Is it fair to state that anyone who would read your deposition of the other day and today and would read the FBI reports as to what you told them, which you have said are correct, would have a true and correct version of all that you know about the matter we have been talking about?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Is there anything that you can think of that is not contained in either your deposition or the statements that you have made to the FBI?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Have you anything else to say, Mr. Armstrong?
Mr. Armstrong. Not a thing.
Mr. Hubert. All right, we certainly do thank you.
Mr. Armstrong. Thank you.