Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15)

by United States. Warren Commission

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 2:10 p.m.

Mr. Griffin. I will repeat what we say at the beginning of each session. We are taking this deposition under the same conditions that we started out with, and you are under the same oath that you have been under at the outset.

Just before we took a break for lunch we had been through a number of notebooks which had many, many names in them. Let me ask you about some other names.

Did you know or hear Jack mention a Lawrence Meyers?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. This man would have been from Chicago and he would have been engaged in a sales capacity in sporting goods.

Mr. Senator. Oh, wait a minute. You mentioned sporting goods. That’s right. I met someone up there. As a matter of fact, Jack got a pair of pushups from him.

Mr. Griffin. Barbells?

Mr. Senator. If it is Lawrence Meyers. I think that is the name. I am not sure. Barbells, yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now you met some man or you heard of some man?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Who you think might be Lawrence Meyers?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I know who you mean. When you mentioned sporting goods, then it——

Mr. Griffin. How do you happen to know of this man?

Mr. Senator. I met him at the Carousel one night when he was in town.

Mr. Griffin. How long before Oswald was shot would that have been?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I think it was in the summer. I think it was this past summer. I think it was in the summer of 1963.

Mr. Griffin. Would it have been in the month of November of 1963?

Mr. Senator. No; I think it was much longer, much before that. Well, it couldn’t have been that. The reason I say that is because I wasn’t living with Jack then.

Mr. Griffin. In November of 1963 you were.

Mr. Senator. I was living next door to Jack. I wasn’t living with him. When you mentioned—was it November?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No; because——

Mr. Griffin. At the time you met this man you were not living with Jack?

Mr. Senator. No; I was still living in my same apartment.

Mr. Griffin. You met him——

Mr. Senator. I think this was some time in the summer, or maybe the latter part of the summer of 1963.

Mr. Griffin. How much time did you spend with this man in the Carousel?

Mr. Senator. Well, he was up at the Carousel. From there we went out and had a bite to eat, and that was it.

Mr. Griffin. And can you describe him? How old a man was he?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say he was 6 foot tall. I would say he is around about 6 foot. I don’t remember the color of his eyes, black, brown, or blue. I don’t remember. Either they are brown or blue. He had a good healthy build, now, of a normal man of that height.

Mr. Griffin. How old a man was he?

Mr. Senator. I would have to say maybe in the late forties. I am not sure. I am certain it is in the forties, if anything, you know. It could jump up a little more. I would probably say he was in the——

Mr. Griffin. How did Jack happen to know this fellow?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. That was the one time I saw him in Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. What did you learn about him?

Mr. Senator. I didn’t learn anything about him. I knew he was selling these things, sporting goods, I guess, of various natures. As a matter of fact, I heard him mention once that they had a plant or something like that in, I think, Bonham, Tex., or a plant or something out there too, which is maybe about 75 miles from Dallas, or an office there or a plant or something out there I know. I don’t know what it is. Maybe it is a manufacturing plant they had there now. That was the only one time I saw him in Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t have any idea how Jack came to meet this fellow?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t.

Mr. Griffin. I mentioned the name Alex Gruber.

Mr. Senator. Who?

Mr. Griffin. Alex Gruber.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. When you were going through the notebooks?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And I believe you indicated you didn’t recognize that name.

Mr. Senator. Not the name; no.

Mr. Griffin. Let me see if I can put this to you. Did you know of any friend Jack had in California who might have been at one time a truck driver?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t. A truck driver?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. And do you remember anybody that Jack was going to send a dog to in California?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t. I have heard that mentioned before. I have heard it mentioned. I don’t remember now if I read it in the newspaper or from mouth to ear or what it was, but I have heard that, that he was going to send it to somebody in California. Who it was, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. How about L. J. McWillie?

Mr. Senator. I have heard of the name McWillie, but I don’t know him. Is it McWillie?

Mr. Griffin. M-c-W-i-l-l-i-e.

Mr. Senator. All I know is the name McWillie.

Mr. Griffin. What do you know about that name?

Mr. Senator. I don’t even know him. Never met him.

Mr. Griffin. Where have you heard the name?

Mr. Senator. I have heard Jack mention the name in the club. He was an old friend of Jack’s at one time or another. From where, what or how, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know of any friends of Jack——

Mr. Senator. As a matter of fact, I thought McWillie was two names. I thought his first name was Mac and his last name was Willie. But, of course, I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know of any friends of Jack who are in jail presently, in the penitentiary?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know of a friend, a fellow who Jack had a business association with, who is now in the penitentiary on a sodomy charge?

Mr. Senator. I have heard that there is somebody. It might be Huntsville. It might be. I am not sure. I heard that somebody is down there. Now who the man is, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack talk about him?

Mr. Senator. I have heard it mentioned quite some time ago, but who he is, I don’t know. I don’t know the man. As a matter of fact I don’t even know the name.

Mr. Griffin. Are you familiar with the name H. L. Hunt?

Mr. Senator. I think everybody is. He is one of the very wealthy men.

Mr. Griffin. In Dallas?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack ever mention having met him?

Mr. Senator. Not to me.

Mr. Griffin. You know H. L. Hunt is politically active, he has a radio program.

Mr. Senator. He is in everything. He is in many, many things, I understand; oh, well, I didn’t know what all his activities are, but the name is like, when you hear the name, it is like listening to the name of the President—I mean that well known, I would say.

Mr. Griffin. Have you ever seen Jack with any literature that was put out by H. L. Hunt?

Mr. Senator. Not that I know of offhand.

Mr. Griffin. Have you ever heard Jack mention Lamar Hunt?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think so. That is his son, I think. I don’t think so.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you, George, have you ever belonged to any political organizations?

Mr. Senator. Never, never.

Mr. Griffin. I don’t simply mean by that the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, but any kind of organization which was interested in some public issue, or something.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. What was your practice with respect to using Jack’s telephone?

Mr. Senator. What was what?

Mr. Griffin. Your practice with respect to using Jack Ruby’s telephone at home. I take it you used it to make local calls.

Mr. Senator. Once in a while; yes. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Did you make long-distance calls, telephone calls, from Jack’s home?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t think I have.

Mr. Griffin. By long distance I mean any toll call, even to Fort Worth.

Mr. Senator. Not that I know of. I don’t think I ever have.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever have occasion to call Ralph Paul from Jack’s telephone?

Mr. Senator. I have called him, but I don’t think I have ever called him from the house that I can remember, mind you. Now I don’t know if I have ever or not. I can’t quote and say “Yes, I did,” or “Yes, I didn’t.”

Mr. Griffin. Are you able to state whether or not on Friday, November 22, you made any long-distance phone calls from Jack’s telephone?

Mr. Senator. On November 22?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; Friday, November 22.

Mr. Senator. I don’t think so. I don’t think I did.

Mr. Griffin. How about the next day, on Saturday?

Mr. Senator. On Saturday?

Mr. Griffin. Did you make any toll calls on that day?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think so. When I say I don’t think so, I don’t remember if I did or not, but I don’t think so. I don’t want to say “No” positively or “Yes” positive, because I am not sure. I just don’t think so.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember Saturday morning, November 23, do you remember whether Jack received any telephone calls that morning?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. Would you recall, for example, whether Larry Crafard called that morning?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember if he did or not. As I say, I can’t be quoted, because I ain’t positive. I can’t say yes or no because I don’t remember on that.

Mr. Griffin. When did you first become aware that Larry Crafard was no longer in Dallas?

Mr. Senator. The following Tuesday.

Mr. Griffin. How did you find out about that?

Mr. Senator. When I went up there I asked Andrew one night, and I happened to remember that it was Tuesday, one of the things I do remember, and I said to Andrew, I said, “Andrew, where is Larry?” I said, “I didn’t see him yesterday either,” or something like that, to that effect, and he said he had left, and I said, “When did he leave?” He said he had left Saturday.

Mr. Griffin. How did Andrew know that?

Mr. Senator. He said—I think now he said he took $8 from the till, or something to that effect, and I think he left a note that he was leaving, something like that. These are not positive words, but I think this is what he said. Something to that effect. And that is the first time I ever knew.

Mr. Griffin. Did Andrew have any explanation as to why Larry left?

Mr. Senator. No; not that I know of. Incidentally, Andrew was back at the trial, you know.

Mr. Griffin. Larry?

Mr. Senator. I mean Larry, because Andrew lives in Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. Yes; he was at the trial?

Mr. Senator. Yes; they said he hitchhiked in from Wisconsin or some place out there. I don’t know where it is. They said he hitchhiked all the way back for the trial. That is what I heard.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to him?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I talked to him when I was sitting on the witness bench one day.

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you why he came back to Dallas?

Mr. Senator. No; but he said, he mentioned that he hitchhiked back, but he didn’t say why he came back or anything of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. Did he say anything to you about why he left?

Mr. Senator. No: he didn’t. I never asked him. As a matter of fact, I wanted to ask him, but I didn’t. I couldn’t imagine why he left. I believe he was on the witness stand. What happened, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. You know we were talking about what you did on Saturday.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. During the afternoon.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. I have here in front of me a copy of a statement that you provided the Dallas Police Department. I notice in here that you say that you left the house around noon on Saturday.

Mr. Senator. Something like that; yes.

Mr. Griffin. And that you had some things to do. Now try to think back to when you talked with the police department. What things did you have to do on Saturday?

Mr. Senator. I can’t imagine. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have anything to do in connection with your business?

Mr. Senator. No; I didn’t work that day.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any shopping to do other than for the groceries you bought?

Mr. Senator. Well, I did that. I don’t remember if I did that. I just wonder if I did the laundry. I normally do the laundry on Saturday or something. But I don’t even recollect if I did that that day or not. I don’t remember. I think I saw Jim Martin, but to the best of my recollection anything I did was only minute, just the passing of an afternoon, or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have some recollection of having seen Jim Martin on Saturday?

Mr. Senator. I think I had a cocktail. I am not sure, but I think I had a cocktail with him, at the Burgundy Room. I think I did.

Mr. Griffin. Would that have been in the afternoon?

Mr. Senator. Yes; because he is around his office between somewhere between 12 and 1. I mean that is when he will leave, he won’t leave before that, and if I remember right—I am not sure on that—but if I remember I think we may have had a cocktail at the Burgundy Room.

Mr. Griffin. I take it you do begin to have some recollection of having spent some time at the Burgundy Room?

Mr. Senator. I know I was there that day, you know.

Mr. Griffin. But I mean Saturday afternoon.

Mr. Senator. I think I may have been there for a while, because I know later on that I met who I mentioned yesterday, Bill Downey, that I was there, and that we went some other place.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Downey before——

Mr. Senator. I think I saw Downey the latter part of the afternoon, or something like that, or the early part of the evening. I don’t know if I met him in the latter part of the afternoon or when it was.

Mr. Griffin. And were you——

Mr. Senator. It might have been in the early part of the afternoon. I am not sure. But I also met him later. It must have been around 8 or 8:30 when we went out together. I was at the Burgundy Room. Then we went to this other place.

Mr. Griffin. It is your recollection that you saw Downey then both in the afternoon and the evening?

Mr. Senator. I think I saw him in the afternoon, but the evening for sure. I think I saw him in the afternoon. I am not sure. I think I made an appointment to meet him later, and then we would go out for a beer or two. This is what I think. I think now I am not sure on that.

Mr. Griffin. Were you troubled on Saturday over your having gone with Jack out to photograph this impeach Earl Warren sign?

Mr. Senator. Was I troubled when I went with him?

Mr. Griffin. On Saturday did this trouble you in any way?

Mr. Senator. You mean Saturday afternoon?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. You mean did I think about it?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Oh, I imagine that I would probably say that I had thought about it; yes. As a matter of fact, I thought about that thing many a time; I don’t know why; I don’t know why he wanted to go out that night and take these pictures. He never mentioned why he wanted to see it or why he wanted to snap the pictures.

Mr. Griffin. You didn’t mention this to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. You did mention, however, that you went out with Jack and had coffee with him that morning?

Mr. Senator. Yes; at the Southland Hotel.

Mr. Griffin. Of course, this was all in sequence with having gone out to see that Earl Warren sign?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. But what was it that made you omit to tell the police that?

Mr. Senator. Nothing particularly. I don’t know why. Just it was a shaken-up day for me.

Mr. Griffin. Were you worried that this might hurt Jack to talk about that particular episode?

Mr. Senator. No. As a matter of fact, it would do him justice.

Mr. Griffin. How do you feel that way?

Mr. Senator. I think if a man is exploring somebody who put out a sign, whoever it may be, who would want to impeach Earl Warren, our Supreme Court Justice, or somebody who would put out these whys about the President the day he is coming here, which weren’t good, the whys, I would say that this would be in favor of him of wanting to know these things, why should they be.

Mr. Griffin. How would that——

Mr. Senator. Why would somebody want to impeach Earl Warren? For what reason? I don’t know. I mean I don’t have the answer to it. But why would a sign be put up there? Why did they want to impeach Earl Warren? Impeach him about what? I have asked myself this many times, but I don’t know the answer.

Mr. Griffin. You see, it seems strange that you should have mentioned your going to the Southland Hotel and having coffee and that occurred immediately after you had gone out to see the Earl Warren sign and had also gone to the post office—then I say I wonder how you could have forgotten it, once you had your mind on having one to the Southland Hotel. You know you didn’t go right from your apartment to the Southland Hotel to have coffee.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I don’t know why. I know I explained that to Elmer Moore one day, and I said, “Elmer,” or “Mr. Moore,” rather, when he was questioning me, I said, “Elmer, of course, the first day I had been shaken up,” and I had mentioned to Mr. Moore when he took my text of the whole thing how going about the sign, the two signs, how these had bypassed my mind.

Mr. Griffin. Two signs?

Mr. Senator. Well, when I say the signs, the billboard and the newspaper ad, when they took my statement.

Mr. Griffin. When you talked to me on the telephone from New York, I guess it was on Monday——

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. You asked me if I had a copy, or if I had seen the Bernard Weissman ad.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And I take it that in your mind this is a justification, this somehow is a justification or some assistance to Jack in his defense, the fact that he was interested in finding out about that advertisement and about the sign?

Mr. Senator. That’s right. He wanted to know the whys. He wanted to know why somebody would want to impeach him.

Mr. Griffin. Now is this a thought that has come to you after knowing, or after having talked with the attorneys and knowing what the strategy of the trial was going to be?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Talking with people?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Or is this something that you felt almost immediately, that this would be a justification?

Mr. Senator. I thought definitely in my own thinking that this was a justification, because when I was put on the witness stand for the bond hearing in early, I think it was, December, I am not sure just when it was, when I was questioned about that by Mr. Alexander, I told him that if anything this would be helping Jack, in wanting to know why something of this nature would want to be put out in Dallas. Why did the Dallas Daily Morning News want to accept an ad like this when the President was coming into town that day?

Mr. Griffin. When you went out with Jack, did Jack tell you at all what he was going to do with this information that he got?

Mr. Senator. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. Griffin. Did he indicate that he might have been working for a newspaper?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Trying to do some freelance work for a newspaper?

Mr. Senator. No; there wasn’t a thing mentioned. I say when Jack gets his mind set on something, he wants to know why, the information, the why.

Mr. Griffin. When was it that you first learned that Jack had spent sometime at the police station on Friday night? Did you ever learn it?

Mr. Senator. You mean the Friday when he was bringing the sandwiches and things of that nature there?

Mr. Griffin. Yes. When did you first learn about that?

Mr. Senator. I think it was after he woke me up that morning. I think that is when he told me, and I think he mentioned it, yes, and then he mentioned that he went to the synagogue there Friday and prayed for the President, and that he saw his sister, and they were both crying, as it was related to me, over the President.

Mr. Griffin. You didn’t tell any of that to the——

Mr. Senator. To who?

Mr. Griffin. To the police department when you talked to them on the 24th, did you?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember. See, you must understand——

Mr. Griffin. Why don’t you take a look—well, go ahead.

Mr. Senator. You must understand when a person is grabbed the way I was grabbed, or I will say not particularly me, but any human being, wouldn’t it shake a human being up?

Mr. Griffin. I take it the police department asked you to tell them everything you knew about what Jack had done.

Mr. Senator. Let me say in the condition that I was in, I was pretty well shaken up at that time.

Mr. Griffin. Did you feel that his being at the police department might hurt him?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I didn’t think about that. That didn’t even enter my mind whether it did or not. All I know is he said he took sandwiches over there, and that is all I know on that.

Mr. Griffin. Now you also——

Mr. Senator. Now why he took it over there, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. You also didn’t mention——

Mr. Senator. Maybe I forgot a lot of things at that particular time, being shook up.

Mr. Griffin. You also didn’t mention in this statement that you gave the police department on the 24th——

Mr. Senator. Didn’t what?

Mr. Griffin. In the statement that you gave to the police department on the 24th.

Mr. Senator. I didn’t mention what?

Mr. Griffin. You did not mention anything about the telephone call from Little Lynn.

Mr. Senator. Maybe I forgot that, too. Look, I told you. I was in a shookup state that first day. Maybe I did forget about it.

Mr. Griffin. I am just wondering if these things, if you thought in your own mind that those events which you omitted——

Mr. Senator. Was I trying to hide something?

Mr. Griffin. Well, could hurt Jack, and you wanted to help Jack.

Mr. Senator. I wasn’t trying to hide anything. I definitely was not trying to hide anything. But you must understand, like I repeated, any individual in an event like this, now I can’t speak for anybody else, but I would probably say they would be shaken up like I was, and I want you to know that I was really shook up, that that would make a lot of people forget a lot of things, and probably can’t remember things, being grabbed that fast and being talked to that fast in that instantaneous—I was pretty well shaken up that day, very good.

Mr. Griffin. But you did remember Jack talking about the President and you mentioned you remembered that you thought you saw tears in his eyes, and you remember his saying he was going to take his dog Sheba down to the club. I am just wondering why it is you remembered some of these things, but you didn’t remember some other things which were just, perhaps should have been just as graphic, like going out to that impeach Earl Warren sign—that must have just stood out as a sore thumb to you.

Mr. Senator. There was no particular reason. Now maybe a lot of things that I mentioned there that I possibly could have forgotten, too. There was no particular reason for it. There was nothing that I was trying to cover up or hide because I got nothing to hide.

Mr. Griffin. I am not suggesting that in any sort of invidious sense.

Mr. Senator. It is just a shakeup of a fast brain, that is all, at the moment, when all these things were happening.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you what I have marked as “Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator Deposition, Exhibit 5400,” and I will sign my name to it. This is a copy of an affidavit which appears to bear your signature which was sworn to before William F. Alexander on November 24, 1963.

Mr. Senator. Is that the man who had me? I don’t remember who it was.

Mr. Griffin. This is apparently the man who is a notary public who took this statement. Look it over. Read it if you would. I hand it to you now. Tell me if you remember signing that and if that is true.

Mr. Senator. That is, that is my signature.

Mr. Griffin. Read it through to make sure as best you can remember that that is a true copy of what you signed. It that a true copy of the statement you signed?

Mr. Senator. To the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Griffin. I wonder then if you would sign that under my name. I hand you that pen back. As I understand it, then, immediately after you signed this statement before Mr. Alexander, you were then interviewed by an agent of the FBI.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, were you shaken up in dealing with the FBI agent?

Mr. Senator. Sure.

Mr. Griffin. In this same, or rather in this interview with the FBI, the FBI reports you as telling them during that interview that you learned of Oswald’s being shot just as you walked in the door of the Eatwell Restaurant.

Mr. Senator. Just as I walked in? No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall that?

Mr. Senator. No; I was sitting. I was sitting. I wasn’t walking in the door. I was down on the seat and already had my first cup of coffee.

Mr. Griffin. Also, one gets the impression from the FBI interview it was your recollection on November 24 that you called Jim Martin after you learned that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. Senator. No; before.

Mr. Griffin. It was before you learned that?

Mr. Senator. Right. I called him—wait, wait. No; that is right. I did. But I wasn’t home. That was it. I called him and spoke to his daughter, one of his little girls.

Mr. Griffin. And that was before you learned that Ruby——

Mr. Senator. Yes. When I heard that Oswald was shot, but nothing mentioned. There was no name or no club mentioned, Oswald was shot—that is when I called him.

Mr. Griffin. Directing your attention to the FBI’s report on November 24, that you said you learned that Oswald was shot just as you walked in the door.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. What makes you now remember that you were seated and had a cup of coffee whereas apparently you didn’t remember that on November 24?

Mr. Senator. Because the waitress who waited on me was the one who said it.

Mr. Griffin. Did she say it to you?

Mr. Senator. No. She was behind the counter. Not specifically to me. It was pretty loud.

Mr. Griffin. Did they have a TV set on?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t think so. I don’t know. She got her information through either the phone, or they may have had a little radio. I don’t remember just what it was, because I wasn’t looking directly where she was walking around, or what she was doing, but she was behind the counter, and I was sitting.

Mr. Griffin. How much time elapsed between the time you learned that Oswald had been shot and the time you learned that Ruby had been the person who shot him?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say within 5 to 10 minutes, something like that. It was a short while I know. It wasn’t long.

Mr. Griffin. I’m going to mark a document which I have before me in the following manner: “Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator, Deposition Exhibit 5401,” and I am going to sign my name to it.

This document which I have marked as a copy of an interview report prepared by Special Agent Kenneth C. Howe of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, of an interview on November 24, 1963, with you, Mr. Senator. It consists of five pages, typewritten pages, and they are numbered 296 to 300. I have marked on page 296, and I have not marked the succeeding pages. I want to hand you this and ask you now to take the time to read it over, and then I want to know if that is an accurate report of what you told the FBI at that time.

I am not asking you whether, on further reflection, you would change what you said in there, but merely whether that accurately reflects what you told them at that time. If it doesn’t, why, will you point out the parts that are not accurate, and we will see if we can’t correct it.

Mr. Senator. Shall I make little notations here?

Mr. Griffin. Are there some places you want to change?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Before you mark on it—why don’t you do this——

Mr. Senator. It will only be a dot.

Mr. Griffin. Why don’t you just take this paper and make some notes on it and then we can go back.

Mr. Senator. There is going to be some changes in here. I will point them out to you.

Mr. Griffin. Have you got some changes to make there?

Mr. Senator. Yes. I had better go over it with you though.

Mr. Griffin. Why don’t you read the sentence or sentences that you would make changes in, and then we will discuss them? What I suggest you do is read one sentence or a group of sentences that are wrong, and then we will discuss that sentence or group, and then we will move on to the next one. Go right ahead and read it.

Mr. Senator. It says here, “He had only casual association with him, mostly only as a patron to his club, from that time on until approximately 3 years ago.”

Mr. Griffin. That is on page 296 of the FBI report?

Mr. Senator. Yes. Now it wasn’t 3 years ago at the time. This was 2 years ago.

Mr. Griffin. In other words, your association with Jack was casual up until 2 years ago?

Mr. Senator. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. All right.

Mr. Senator. In other words, it was 1962, February, March, or April or somewheres in there of 1962.

Mr. Griffin. Why don’t you change with your pen, strike out the word “three.”

Mr. Senator. On this?

Mr. Griffin. On that. And write “two.”

Mr. Senator. You mean cross the three off and put a two in there?

Mr. Griffin. Yes. And then initial it and date it.

Mr. Senator. It is going to be hard to squeeze it in between these lines. Shall I put my initial after it?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. You won’t be able to see it. These writings here don’t coincide.

Mr. Griffin. Let me talk a little bit more about this change in your relationship with Jack. Up until approximately March or April of 1962 when your relationship became more than casual, were there other people in Dallas to whom you felt closer than Jack?

Mr. Senator. No; I think maybe we are both misinterpreting this. When you say closer, this is when I first started to—you know, when I was down and out and I first started to work for him, and I was living with him. You see what I mean?

Mr. Griffin. This is March or April of 1962?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say either February, March, or April, something like that. I don’t remember that I was living with him, because previous to that I still didn’t see him any more than I ever did in the past.

Mr. Griffin. And up to this time were there other people in Dallas whom you saw more frequently than Jack?

Mr. Senator. Oh, the only time I saw Jack is when I ever met him anywheres, if I should run across him anywheres, or once in a while I would go up to his club, that was all, and it has never been anything but that up until that time.

Mr. Griffin. Who did you see more frequently or on a more social basis?

Mr. Senator. Actually I couldn’t see him frequently. Before that I was traveling. See, I was traveling. I wasn’t home every weekend. There were times when I was traveling, there were times I might miss a week from coming home. It all depends on the location you are—if you are too far from home. Then other times I might be gone two or three. It all depends, you know.

Mr. Griffin. What I want to get some idea of is up until this period that you moved in with Jack in 1962, who were the people that you saw on a social basis?

Mr. Senator. Well, I have seen Bill Downey. What I want to impress you, these people I don’t see every day, or like, you know, say I see them today, tomorrow, the next day, and things like that. On rare occasions I saw Don Taber. That time on rare occasions I saw Jim Martin. These were all rare, mind you, then. See, I did more meeting. I met a lot of people at the Burgundy Room most of the time. In other words, somebody has a favorite hangout.

Mr. Griffin. And that Burgundy Room was yours?

Mr. Senator. This is mine.

Mr. Griffin. For how long has it been your favorite hangout?

Mr. Senator. Ever since I came to Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. This is a place you would go almost every day?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say more so than any other place.

Mr. Griffin. Do you go there almost every day?

Mr. Senator. No, not every day, no.

Mr. Griffin. Two or three times a week?

Mr. Senator. I would say yes, sure, and I always met some friends there—after they all get out from work a lot of people always gathered, transient or local, from 5 on.

Mr. Griffin. The Burgundy Room to you is sort of what a private club would be to a wealthier man?

Mr. Senator. That is of that nature, yes.

Mr. Griffin. And there were certain other people who used to hang around there?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Was Jack Ruby one of the people?

Mr. Senator. No. I have only seen Jack go in there that I can remember twice, but he never sat down and had a drink. In and out. Walked in. Jack is not a drinking man.

Mr. Griffin. So would it be fair to say that for recreation and pastime——

Mr. Senator. Just as one of my hangouts.

Mr. Griffin. You would go to the Burgundy Room and have a few beers, a few drinks?

Mr. Senator. Yes. Whoever walked in. I had many friends who walked in. Whoever walked in, there is many girls that I knew, many fellows that I knew.

Mr. Griffin. But you are not a man who spends his spare time——

Mr. Senator. Not particularly, no.

Mr. Griffin. Playing golf or tennis?

Mr. Senator. No. I’ll tell you—the only habit I got is I like to cook, this is my golf or what somebody else would do, or whatever he may recreate in—I used to like to piddle around in the kitchen. That is why Jack Ruby didn’t like me. You are not writing that?

Mr. Griffin. You mean that you like to experiment with food?

Mr. Senator. Yes, I like to putter around. I enjoy puttering around in kitchens. I done this for a long time.

Mr. Griffin. But you worked in a number of restaurants?

Mr. Senator. But not in that capacity. Of course, I was broken in, you know. When I say broken in, I worked for my brother you know, years ago, but I wasn’t classified as any cook or any thing of that nature.

Mr. Griffin. Are there any sort of specialty foods you like to cook?

Mr. Senator. I like to mess around with different concoctions, I mean because anybody can throw a hamburger on, you know, in the home, or anybody can throw a steak on, whether it comes out good or bad, that is not a challenge. But to try to make some concoctions where you mix things——

Mr. Griffin. Salads?

Mr. Senator. They can be salads or any hot dishes, something like that, or see how good you can make spareribs come out, which a lot of people can’t make good, and then all the lawyers in Dallas think I am the greatest when it comes to making spareribs, because I have been invited many times, and I do put on a good rib plate.

Mr. Griffin. And were you in the habit of inviting people to your place for dinner?

Mr. Senator. Yes, I have many a time. Nobody particular, but I have. I mean this—I relished, I have been invited over to people’s homes. Jim Martin has invited me to his place to cook. There is another lawyer invited me over to his home to cook. They thought I did a good job in the kitchen. While they sat down I was sweating in the kitchen, but it was fun.

Mr. Griffin. But Jack didn’t appreciate your cooking?

Mr. Senator. He liked my cooking, but he wouldn’t eat it because he classified me as one making rich, fatty foods, that would put a pouch on him. This is the thing, because this is why I mentioned to you that I love to make this avocado dish, which I mentioned to you before.

Mr. Griffin. This is when we were having lunch.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. I didn’t pull out an avocado salad today as I did yesterday.

Mr. Senator. I love avocadoes. I think they are great. I used to make a concoction and put on avocado and everybody used to love it. I must have put about nine different ingredients in it, but it tasted real good, real good. They used to clean the plate out. That was a good enough answer.

Mr. Griffin. Now there are some other things in that statement or that interview report that I think you want to change.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. These don’t look like my words. I don’t say that some of these aren’t factors, you know, but I don’t see, I don’t think some of these are the direct words that come out of my mouth.

Mr. Griffin. So that you understand, these are not supposed to be actually the direct words that come out of your mouth, but this is their report of what they recall your saying. Now if it changes the substance in some way, if they have used words that change the meaning in some way, or the approach that you had, I think it is important to bring that out.

Mr. Senator. Let me read this off to you. This is right after the next sentence. It says, “Thereafter he considers himself to be much closer to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself closer during the past 3 years.” Now I don’t even know what that means.

Mr. Griffin. I understand it.

Mr. Senator. I don’t understand it.

Mr. Griffin. I understand it to mean that you felt that you were closer to Ruby but you couldn’t explain to them why you were closer to Ruby.

Mr. Senator. Let me read this to myself again? This don’t make sense to me. Maybe I don’t understand what I am reading, what I have read to you. Do you want to go over it with me?

Mr. Griffin. All right.

Mr. Senator. This part I read to you, start there, “Thereafter.”

Mr. Griffin. “Thereafter he considered himself to have been closer to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself closer during the past 3 years than the time before he knew Ruby.”

In other words, they are saying that you couldn’t explain why you felt closer to Ruby in this recent period.

Mr. Senator. If I had just moved in, how could I really feel that closer, just moving in? It doesn’t necessarily mean being close to him. I mean, this I don’t understand. What do they mean when they say—how can you just move in with somebody and say, say you are that close to him? You are there, that is true, but what do you mean by being close to him? If you had just gone in and had always known him casually——

Mr. Griffin. Isn’t part of the reason that you felt closer to him in recent years than you had long before is that you began to live with him in recent years, and that automatically made you closer? You saw him more often.

Mr. Senator. Yes; but I mean the way this sort of states to me, unless I misinterpret it, like I just moved in and I am that close to him already, I am really like a buddy-buddy, you know.

Mr. Griffin. No; there is no mention in here at this point in the FBI interview report of your having moved in with Ruby.

Mr. Senator. In so many words, though, doesn’t it sound the same to you? “... than in the past 3 years”.

Mr. Griffin. Yes; but it doesn’t mention that in the past 3 years you moved in and began living with him, whereas before then you hadn’t lived with him. As I understand what you have been saying to us up to this point is that your closer relationship simply resulted from the fact that you began to see him every day, whereas before——

Mr. Senator. See the way I interpret this, the moment I moved in I was already close to him. Of course, I know that I am in the same place, but that is the way I am interpreting it.

Mr. Griffin. Let’s let it stand for the record, then, that you did not automatically feel closer to Jack Ruby at the time you moved in with him.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Your moving in with him was not the result of having established a close relationship, but was a result of Jack’s taking you in when you didn’t have a place to live and didn’t have any money. Is that it?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I mean the appreciation was there, I want you to know, of these things.

Mr. Griffin. And how did Jack happen to learn that you needed a place to live and so he invited you in with him?

Mr. Senator. I identified myself that way.

Mr. Griffin. In other words, you approached him and asked him if you could move in?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I don’t remember just how it was, but I was not in good condition, I was hurting.

Mr. Griffin. And had there been something about Jack before that that had indicated to you that Jack would be the kind of a guy who would respond like this?

Mr. Senator. Yes; because he has responded to other people like this, and after that, and I have seen it.

Mr. Griffin. Had you heard before you moved in with Jack that Jack had taken in other people or done things for other people?

Mr. Senator. The example number one is the chap that I told you is deceased—I don’t say this man was hurting, but he was still living in Jack’s apartment for free.

Mr. Griffin. Martin Gimpel?

Mr. Senator. Martin Gimpel. He was still living in Jack’s apartment for free. I don’t say he was hurting for money, which I don’t know because I didn’t know his business.

Mr. Griffin. You knew that at the time you approached Jack? You knew Gimpel had been living with him?

Mr. Senator. I didn’t know Gimpel that way, just from running across him.

Mr. Griffin. But had anybody else suggested to you that Jack might be willing to take you in?

Mr. Senator. No, no; it was just one of those things that happened by chance. That is all. Of course, within me I didn’t know what was going to happen, but he took me in. I have seen other instances like this chap Larry. Now he ran across him out at the fairgrounds.

I don’t know what it was, but this kid here didn’t have the right time. He was doing something out there. His apparel was nothing, and Jack bought him a suit. Of course, mind you, he put him in the club, let him sleep there, but he made him work, but he gave him a few bucks. He gave him a place to sleep. He put some clothes on his back.

And one time before he disappeared I even heard him mention once—Larry didn’t have any front teeth, and I heard Jack mention once, “Larry, we’ll have to do something about your teeth, to get you some front teeth.” This is a true fact. As tough as this guy was at times, he was soft too. He had a heart. Many a buck he shelled out to somebody to grab a bite.

Mr. Griffin. You suggested you found this Ewing Street apartment.

Mr. Senator. The new place.

Mr. Griffin. You made the decision——

Mr. Senator. Somebody told me to take a look at this new place going up. At the time I looked at it, this place wasn’t even ready.

Mr. Griffin. Did you suggest to Jack that he might also want to move in there?

Mr. Senator. I mentioned to Jack to take a look at it, see. This is before either one of us were living there. The thing was still in the working stages. It was coming round to completion, you know.

Mr. Griffin. As we had discussed before, you moved in with Jack in the early part of 1962 and lived with him for about 5 months?

Mr. Senator. But not at this place.

Mr. Griffin. No; at another place.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And, of course, during that 5 months you began to know the man better.

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure.

Mr. Griffin. You came closer to him, but you decided when you got a job you wanted to move out from him?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now I am curious as to why you decided that you wanted to move out rather than decide that you would stay there and pay part of the rent.

Mr. Senator. Particularly one. I told you he didn’t keep a very clean place, but should I classify myself to say a man who is unemployed, a beggar—beggars can’t be choosers, that is an old saying, right?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. That is part of it. All right, I know the overall picture that Jack would rather live alone, see. I mean if somebody is out, something like me, if I needed a place, all right, he would keep me. But in the overall picture he would rather live alone.

And many a guy has slept at his place whether the Carousel or one of the apartments he may live in, and I don’t know how many he has lived in previous to when I knew him where he may put up a guy for a night, 2, 3, 4, or 5, whatever it might be, and fed him, because he was tapped or something of that nature. He has done this many a time, and I would probably say even before I knew him, and I feel this probably could go back to the hardships of his youth, because he, as I understand it, he had a rough bringing up and growing up.

Mr. Griffin. Did he talk about that to you?

Mr. Senator. He talked about some of it, but I never heard all of it come out in the courtroom. Of course, I never knew up until, you know, the recent times that his mother was in an institution or a crazy house, which I never knew. And, of course, I didn’t know how drunk his father used to be, but I understand he was a habitual——

Mr. Griffin. Did he talk about his father when you lived with him?

Mr. Senator. I think he had mentioned his father, but he had never mentioned his mother, never, which I never knew. Of course, this all come out after the shooting, you know, everything come out, was brought out either by the sisters or somebody. And I never knew about how the kids were all separated, things of that nature, when they were young. One was placed here, one was placed there, wherever they were placed. A lot of these things I never even knew.

Mr. Griffin. So this conclusion that you are now drawing——

Mr. Senator. I would probably say this might be why he has done some of the things he did.

Mr. Griffin. You are drawing this conclusion on the basis of what you have learned since he shot Oswald, and not on the basis of anything that you knew beforehand? In other words, these things you have been talking about, his father and his mother and the separation of the children, this you first learned after he shot Oswald? You didn’t know about that when you were living with him?

Mr. Senator. No; I didn’t know about it. I heard him mention that he had tough days as a kid, but he never talked about them too much, very, very little. All these things, the majority of the things that come out, come out after the trial, I mean after the shooting. There, of course, I think his sisters come out with the majority of it and probably his brothers, when things had to be related and had to go back all these years.

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead through there as you have, through that Exhibit 5401, and if there is anything else in there that you think should be changed or clarified—keep in mind what I am primarily concerned with is whether this report you are looking at is an accurate report of what was told to the FBI at that time.

Mr. Senator. Let me run through this one: “He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet”.

Of course, this is a comma, and then it continues, but I want to stop right there. Let me run through the whole thing. “He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet, but he claims he actually never lived with him until about November 1, 1963, when he moved into the apartment of Ruby’s, apartment 207, 223 South Ewing, Dallas, Tex.”

Mr. Griffin. Yes; well, that is inaccurate?

Mr. Senator. You know that.

Mr. Griffin. Now, my only question to you is when the FBI interviewed you, and this is on November 24, did you omit to tell them that you had lived with Ruby on an earlier occasion?

Mr. Senator. To the best of my knowledge. I don’t think I did omit that. I don’t think I did.

Mr. Griffin. I think the record is sufficiently clear.

Mr. Senator. Now, there are a lot of things I must tell you which I have told you before. I am not always sure of everything, you know. In other words, I have to use these words to let you know that I ain’t lying.

Mr. Griffin. I think the record will be clear from this deposition that you didn’t live with him before November 1st of 1963.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, unless that you are certain that you did tell the FBI about living with Ruby before November 1st, I would rather not change it on there, write it in there, but I would rather simply let the record show that we are making here, simply let it reflect that that is inaccurate.

Mr. Senator. Let me run back on this one again, part of this again:

“He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet,”.

This was never, because the first time I stayed with him was when I stayed at the club, and then moved with him, because I stayed with him 5 to 6 months, something like that. Of course, I don’t know how you classify this, how important it is to you or not, because I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Were there occasions other than the time that you lived with him for 5 or 6 months that you did come and stay with him for a day or two?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. It never happened?

Mr. Senator. No; I was with him. I mean I wasn’t in and out.

Mr. Griffin. Now is it possible that you could have told them this in the anxiety and turmoil that you were under at the time this interview took place?

Mr. Senator. I could probably say that anything at that time, that day, could be possible. Maybe I feel it isn’t, but let me say that I wasn’t in the best of condition that day. I would say anybody that was in the nature that I was in, and I don’t care who the individual was, would have been shaken up as well as I.

Mr. Griffin. I think again here now the record will reflect, and I want to go through and point these out as you are doing, but I think the record again here will reflect what is accurate as to what has actually happened.

Let’s let this thing stand, unless you are 100 percent sure that you didn’t say that, let’s let it stand on there as written. By “on there” I am referring to the Exhibit 5401.

Mr. Senator. Now here is a point:

“Shortly after Senator first met him, Ruby opened the Sovereign Club on the second floor of the building on the southeast corner of Field and Commerce in downtown Dallas.”

Now this was before I got to him.

Mr. Griffin. He was running the Sovereign Club before you met him?

Mr. Senator. He was in the Sovereign Club; yes. I don’t know how long he was in there, but he was in there before I came that close to him.

Mr. Griffin. But you had known Jack?

Mr. Senator. Oh, I have known him; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Even when he ran the Silver Spur, didn’t you?

Mr. Senator. No; I wasn’t living in Dallas then. That is way before my time.

Mr. Griffin. You knew him before he opened the Sovereign Club when he only had the Vegas?

Mr. Senator. Oh, sure. This is the Sovereign Club. Wait a minute. It says shortly after I first met him. My God, this don’t go that far back, and I have known Ruby, unless he could have meant the Vegas Club, I don’t know. Of course, I don’t know how important this is to you either.

Mr. Griffin. Again here I am glad you pointed this out. Here I think that this deposition will clear this up.

Mr. Senator. Now here is one that says I wasn’t able to furnish the individual’s name, but I know it now.

“Ruby had a partner in the operation of the Sovereign Club, but Senator was unable to furnish this individual’s name.”

But we have talked about that name today.

Mr. Griffin. Joe Slayton.

Mr. Senator. Joe Slayton; yes, sir. Now I don’t think I knew who it was then, who his partner was. “Senator can state only that he believes Ruby to be the sole owner and operator of the present Carousel Club.”

Now there was a backer and I knew him well, but I didn’t know the conditions.

Mr. Griffin. Were you reluctant at the time you talked to the FBI to disclose this?

Mr. Senator. No. You mean to hold back on them?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. That is the way it sounds when you say that.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No, no; I wasn’t. As well as I knew him I didn’t know the formality of what he had to the Carousel as many times as he came there. I didn’t know what his status was in it. I knew there was a close—I mean he had a close relationship with Jack. He knew him well.

“Ruby actively managed the Carousel Club although he still as far as Senator knows owns the Vegas Club,” which we know different now.

Mr. Griffin. Do you want to go on to the next page?

Mr. Senator. I am through with that page.

Mr. Griffin. Look at page 297 of this same report and tell us if there are any changes or modifications or corrections you want to make there.

Mr. Senator. What is I.E., the initials?

Mr. Griffin. That means in explanation. The sentence you are referring to is,

“Senator was of the opinion Ruby, since he is Jewish, feels somewhat the same on things of this type as he (Senator) does, i.e., a Jew has no right to express opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business, since he has enough strikes against him just being a Jew.”

In other words, this statement about a Jew having no right to express opinions of any sort is a belief that you have, and the FBI is saying you believe that, and you think Ruby believes the same thing.

Mr. Senator. I don’t believe I said that. I don’t believe I ever said that. I know that Ruby is a sensitive man as far as when the word “Jew” comes up, you know, in something he don’t like. He takes tremendous offense. No; I am not of the nature of Jack Ruby.

Mr. Griffin. Then do you feel that a Jewish person has no business expressing political opinions, and so forth?

Mr. Senator. Oh, they certainly have a perfect right to express opinions as anybody else. I would probably say—let me say I think they are more careful. I can’t speak for every individual, mind you.

Mr. Griffin. Do you think that Jack felt that a Jewish person has no business expressing——

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know what he felt. All I know is that he gets pretty sensitive when somebody is knocking it, or jokes and things, things of that nature, he don’t go for it nohow.

Mr. Griffin. This language which we have been quoting arises in a paragraph that starts out:

“Ruby never expressed any special political preferences and never even discussed political matters.”

Then it goes on to state this view, that “A Jew has no right to express opinions of any sort,” the suggestion being that Ruby never discussed politics because he didn’t think a Jew should discuss politics.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know about that. Of course, I can’t quote Ruby’s words. I can’t think for Ruby like I can’t think for anybody else.

Mr. Griffin. But you would say that now your present opinion is that you have no information about Ruby which would make you believe that he declined to be interested in political matters because of his Jewish background, that is, his Jewish background discouraged him or made him feel that he shouldn’t have this kind of——

Mr. Senator. I couldn’t even answer that because I don’t even know. I don’t even know. All I do know is I know that anybody comes out and calls him a God-damned Jew or something to that effect, he don’t go for this nohow, he just don’t go for it. He is sensitive that way.

Now somebody could say it to me and I would probably be able to laugh it off, whether I did or didn’t like it, but I tell you Jack Ruby don’t laugh these things off.

Mr. Griffin. He is sensitive about being criticized because he is a Jew?

Mr. Senator. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. But you don’t feel, I take it, that there is necessarily any connection between his sensitivity to being a Jew and his apparent lack of interest in politics?

Mr. Senator. I don’t believe so.

Mr. Griffin. If now in discussing this situation in an atmosphere which I take it is a little bit more relaxed than it was on November 24th, if you were to offer a judgment as to why Jack Ruby didn’t appear to be interested in politics, what would you suggest for the reason?

Mr. Senator. I have no answer for it, but all I can say is these things don’t interest him. He was not interested in these things.

Mr. Griffin. What is his primary interest?

Mr. Senator. Show business.

Mr. Griffin. How about girls? How about sex? Is that an important interest to him?

Mr. Senator. It is as natural for him as it is for any other male human being.

Mr. Griffin. Was this a matter, though—was sex something that he discussed as much as he discussed his business, for example?

Mr. Senator. No, no. I don’t say—I don’t say that he hasn’t discussed it, but I will say that there isn’t any male that hasn’t discussed it.

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead with that page 297 and point out any other paragraphs that you would change or correct.

Mr. Senator. In this next column here, the only thing is, “Ruby owned a revolver which Senator could describe only by saying it was black. This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry it back and forth between the club and his home because he usually carried a fairly large sum of money.”

Now there is only one little point there I want to bring out, and this is the point I want to bring out:

“This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry it back and forth between the club and his home.”

This was an everyday occurrence.

Mr. Griffin. He carried it back and forth every day?

Mr. Senator. When he left the house to go to the club, bingo, that went with him. When he left the club to go home, that went with him.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this. Did he keep the gun in the apartment or did he keep it in his car?

Mr. Senator. He kept it in his apartment.

Mr. Griffin. He kept it in the apartment?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now would he keep it on his person or would he keep it in a moneybag?

Mr. Senator. It has been both ways. It all depends on how he is going home. I mean, no particular reason. He has kept it both ways.

Now, I can’t quote how many times he has it in his pocket or in his moneybag, something like that, and I can’t even quote, maybe occasionally he may have forgotten it and left it in the car. If he did leave it in the car it would be locked in the trunk.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have the habit of taking the revolver out of the automobile when he got to the Carousel Club and carrying it up into the Carousel Club, or don’t you remember?

Mr. Senator. Oh, he takes it up there, sure. He takes it upstairs. Now if he does it every day, you must understand that I am not watching every move Jack Ruby made.

Mr. Griffin. How many times did you see it?

Mr. Senator. I don’t even know. I can’t quote the times, but I would probably say the majority of times it probably went up, and then again it may have went up all the time. As I say, I am not watching, looking for a bag all the time.

Mr. Griffin. Is it also possible he may have only taken it up occasionally to the club?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say the majority of the times it went up. If you are asking me to break it down, I can’t break it down. First of all, I am not always with him when he is going to the club.

Mr. Griffin. That is right. On the occasions that you saw him carry it up into the club did he carry it up in his pocket or did he carry it in a bag?

Mr. Senator. The times that I have seen him, I have seen him have it in the bag.

Mr. Griffin. I would think that if he didn’t have a holster it would be pretty cumbersome to carry that revolver around the club in his pocket.

Mr. Senator. I have never known him to have a holster. I have never seen one, never seen a holster on him, or what do you call these things, shoulder? I have never seen one.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see a holster in his automobile?

Mr. Senator. No. I don’t even know if he even had one. This is a part that I have had a lot of trouble with, with a lot of people.

Mr. Griffin. What part is that?

Mr. Senator. This is the part—this is why I think they were probably looking at me as a fag or a queer: “Senator on some occasions would refer to Ruby as a boyfriend.” And I have said that to many people.

Mr. Griffin. Why did you happen to use that term?

Mr. Senator. It is a word I have used all my life, when I was even a kid. There was no particular reason. My boyfriends, some people may say “This is my acquaintance.” It happens to be I have always used this word, no particular reason. Maybe I would probably say it was a habit more than anything else.

Mr. Griffin. Now let me ask you this: You stated to us unequivocally you are not a homosexual.

Mr. Senator. You can be assured, you can be assured. I will say that Georgie still loves women yet.

Mr. Griffin. That is not necessarily inconsistent with being a homosexual, but I am not suggesting——

Mr. Senator. But you heard my words, though, my words they are direct believe me. And I don’t intend changing it. I may not be that strong, but I don’t intend changing them. Of course, age is a benefactor.

Mr. Griffin. You are talking about your affection for women?

Mr. Senator. Yes; certainly. I still like the beauty of the female sex. Let me read the rest of this. Let me quote you something that Mr. Alexander had me at the first bond hearing—I can’t help but think of it when I read this “boyfriend” and how many times that has been quoted. It has never been quoted me direct, but I have heard it hearsay, you know, things like that. At the bond hearing, the first bond hearing, Mr. Alexander said to me:

“You and Jack Ruby lived together?” And I said, “Yes.”

He says, “How many bedrooms in the apartment you live in?”

I said, “Two.”

He says, “What are the other rooms?”

I says, “There is a bathroom, kitchen, and a living room.”

Then he come out with this live one, which I grasped right away. This is what I call it.

“Where do you keep the TV?”

I didn’t particularly like it, but I was on the witness stand.

Mr. Griffin. What did you say?

Mr. Senator. I said, “In the living room,” where it is. But I caught the drift right away. And I wasn’t happy about that because I couldn’t open my mouth because I was on the witness stand.

Page 298. You got the drift of that, didn’t you?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; very clear.

Mr. Senator. I can’t quote the rest of it because he put it down there.

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead, I am interested.

Mr. Senator. In other words, what this means is Jack Ruby and I are in bed together, probably holding hands, or whatever it might be, watching TV. Is that easy?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Isn’t that logical?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. And I was pretty disturbed over this. How does he base something like this?

Mr. Griffin. I take it he didn’t follow it up in any way?

Mr. Senator. Not the second time.

Mr. Griffin. He didn’t attempt to discredit your statement that it was kept in the living room?

Mr. Senator. No. And when he didn’t bring that up at all on the witness stand——

Mr. Griffin. At the trial?

Mr. Senator. At the trial. There is something here; I don’t know what it means; the difference may be an hour or two, according to what time I came home that Friday night—he said between 9 and 10.

Mr. Griffin. When do you think it was?

Mr. Senator. I would say between 10 and 11.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you here: What did you do from the time you heard that the President had been shot on Friday until you came home at, say 10 o’clock? Did you work the rest of that day?

Mr. Senator. That was a black day; man, that was a sad day.

Mr. Griffin. You were at Jack’s?

Mr. Senator. That was a day I will tell you I don’t think a living soul in Dallas had any ambition to work. You would have to see that town that day and the feeling of all the individuals in that town. It was really a sad, sad day. It was a weeping day. I’ll tell you that is what it was; it was a weeping day for the city.

Mr. Griffin. Did you go to the Burgundy Room? Where did you go from Jack’s when you first heard this news?

Mr. Senator. I think I went downtown; did a little deskwork again. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Talk out loud and then we can correct it.

Mr. Senator. I am not sure what it was. I don’t remember anymore. I think I went to the Burgundy Room. I think I just messed around downtown in the area. No particular place.

Mr. Griffin. Would it be a place like the Burgundy Room, a tavern?

Mr. Senator. Probably so; probably so.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember any people you saw on Friday?

Mr. Senator. I can’t recollect. It was a very sad day.

Mr. Griffin. I think that is a day that is rather vivid to most of us. I know it is with me. I am just wondering if you can’t think where you were that day, and who you talked to.

Mr. Senator. In all probability I probably spoke to many people downtown that day, or various places, wherever I may have been.

Mr. Griffin. What other places are you accustomed to go to besides the Burgundy Room?

Mr. Senator. The Burgundy Room; there is another place I used to drop in, which is called the Smuggler, which is uptown. These are both places that I went to. Of course, the Burgundy Room is No. 1. The other place I do go just occasionally, I do go to the place occasionally.

Mr. Griffin. When you say you were hanging around downtown, you were hanging around someplace where you could have a drink, a bite to eat, or something of that sort?

Mr. Senator. I would probably say that.

Mr. Griffin. And you wouldn’t have been in a department store or a drugstore, someplace like that?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t think so. I mean I don’t know. A department store; definitely I haven’t been in there.

Mr. Griffin. We are talking about someplace where you could get a drink, watch television, and watch the events on television. Did you spend all day watching the events on television?

Mr. Senator. No; I didn’t. I think I was in the downtown area. I think I was in the downtown area most of that day, if I am not mistaken. I don’t remember just where I was. I may have floated from downtown uptown. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Do you think you had quite a bit to drink that day?

Mr. Senator. I will probably say I had maybe a fair amount. I mean, to be drunk or anything of that nature, I don’t think I was drunk that day.

Mr. Griffin. I take it you are pretty well able to hold your liquor, from what you said before. You feel that you are?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes.

Mr. Griffin. So that I wonder if——

Mr. Senator. In other words, I got to be careful when I’m driving because if you get nabbed by the Dallas cops, you are in trouble, but good trouble, and I don’t want to get in that condition.

Mr. Griffin. What I am wondering, from what you are saying here, if it isn’t a fair impression to draw——

Mr. Senator. If it isn’t what?

Mr. Griffin. If I couldn’t fairly infer that you had been drinking most of the time after you heard that the President was shot, although you don’t feel that you had been drinking so much that you weren’t in control of yourself.

Mr. Senator. Oh, I was in control of myself.

Mr. Griffin. But you had been drinking fairly steadily from the time you heard the President was shot until you went home that night?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Would this have anything to do with your failure to recollect what you had done that day?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think I was that tight; no. I just don’t remember where I navigated that day.

Mr. Griffin. Can you suggest again—and I keep throwing the same question back to you—can you think or suggest someone that you saw that day?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know if I saw—I keep on bringing up this attorney all the while, Jim Martin. I don’t know if I saw him, called him, or went to his office that day or not. I used to meet him before all this here was going on, you know, for cocktail hour before I went home, between 5 to 6, and went home, but I don’t know if I met him that day or not.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you have dinner that night?

Mr. Senator. I don’t even think I had dinner that night.

Mr. Griffin. Did you attempt to get in touch with Jack Ruby that night?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Why was that?

Mr. Senator. No particular reason why. I just didn’t; that is all. I didn’t even look for him. There was no special reason. You see, I have never, if I am out, gotten on the telephone to see if he was home or what he was going to do or things of that nature. In other words, when I am out I am free.

Mr. Griffin. Jack wasn’t somebody that you did things with; is that fair to say?

Mr. Senator. No; I didn’t do much with him; no.

Mr. Griffin. And part of the reason was Jack didn’t drink? Wasn’t that probably part of it?

Mr. Senator. Jack don’t like me drinking and Jack don’t like to see me go into joints. All right. Now the Burgundy Room; I don’t know if you have ever been there while you were down there.

Mr. Griffin. No; I haven’t.

Mr. Senator. It is a nice place. It gets fine transient trade and local people, and it is one of the nicest places, I feel as an open bar that you can go to.

Mr. Griffin. Does Jack somehow have the idea that you drink too much?

Mr. Senator. Not exactly drink too much. You know I can drink one beer and he will say, “You are drunk, aren’t you?” He will pull this on me. He has pulled it many a time on me.

Mr. Griffin. Does he feel that way about other people?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I don’t know about other people. But he didn’t like me drinking. He said it to me many a time.

Mr. Griffin. Why did you put up with a guy who criticized your personal habits as much as Jack appears to have done?

Mr. Senator. In all reality, it didn’t bother me. I didn’t care what he said.

Mr. Griffin. He sort of treated you like you were his son?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; no. He just didn’t like to have me drink; that is all. He felt I was wasting—believe it or not, here is a man with a club who felt I was throwing my money away, and he felt that I couldn’t afford to be throwing my money away.

Mr. Griffin. He took some sort of a brotherly or fatherly interest in you, or was this just Jack’s desire to dominate people?

Mr. Senator. Dominate? I don’t know if “dominate” would be the word. But as a friend he liked me; I will put it that way. He liked me as a friend.

Mr. Griffin. Is that because of anything you had done for him?

Mr. Senator. Well, you know, I did a lot of things for him, and, of course, he has done things for me, you know. When I was down and out he helped me out.

Mr. Griffin. You showed him a certain amount of loyalty and confidence.

Mr. Senator. Yes; you see, I don’t argue back with him. I don’t know if he likes this or not, you know. I don’t want to argue with him. So I “Yes” him to get the argument over with, because when he hollers at me he hollers from the rooftops. But when you hear enough of it, it didn’t bother me. It may have bothered a lot of people, but it didn’t bother me because with me I knew there was no harm that would be done. But the shrill of his voice, you know he was around. You could hear it.

Mr. Griffin. OK; let’s go on there on page 298 from where we were.

Mr. Senator. It says, “Ruby and Senator arose on November 24, and Senator noticed Ruby had brought one of four dogs which he ordinarily keeps at the Carousel home with him.” He brings this same dog home every night. And when it says, “Ruby and Senator arose,” it is like we woke up at the same time. That is not so.

Mr. Griffin. This refers to Sunday morning, November 24; is that right?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And the correct statement of this would be that——

Mr. Senator. I woke up before he did.

Mr. Griffin. You woke up before he did, and that Jack always keeps Sheba——

Mr. Senator. Always brings Sheba home every night.

Mr. Griffin. Is it customary also for him to take Sheba down to the club every day?

Mr. Senator. Both forth and back, forth and back.

Mr. Griffin. Is Sheba with him wherever he goes?

Mr. Senator. Yes; the dog is always with him. This was his pet. This was his favorite of a few dogs that he had.

Mr. Griffin. OK; I think the record is clear enough on that; that we don’t have to make any entry on the page.

Mr. Senator. Of course, the other is what we discussed before about the signs that you have on this page.

Mr. Griffin. There is nothing in there about the signs, is there?

Mr. Senator. None. Elmer Moore has the one about the signs. This is page 299. I forgot to tell you. I went to this restaurant, it says, to eat. I just had that coffee. The morning when I went down to eat on Main Street, it says I went down to eat. I only had coffee. “He estimated as he arrived there at approximately 11:30 and as he walked in the door he overheard one of the waitresses saying Oswald has been shot.” This is not so.

Mr. Griffin. This was after you sat down?

Mr. Senator. I had been sitting already.

Mr. Griffin. Is that on page 300 or page 299?

Mr. Senator. 299. Now he got this twisted.

Mr. Griffin. Would you read the part that is twisted.

Mr. Senator. Yes. “Shortly thereafter the waitress told Senator that Oswald had been shot by a local tavern operator, and a short while after that he learned the name of this individual to be Jack Ruby. He said he was dumfounded, and did not know what to do, but after a short while he went to the telephone and called Jim Martin on Gladiola Street, Dallas, as an attorney whom he knew.” We went through that. Do you want to go through that again?

Mr. Griffin. Well, I want to know if you say now, of course, that that is not what happened. Now, what did you tell the agent? Could you have told the agent that?

Mr. Senator. No; when the waitress said that she heard Oswald had been shot, I called Jim Martin, but nobody knew who. The daughter answered the phone and said her daddy was in church, and that he would be home in a short while.

Mr. Griffin. It is your recollection that when you called Jim Martin, you couldn’t get ahold of him, but you talked to his daughter.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How old is his daughter?

Mr. Senator. He had three of them, and I don’t remember which one answered. Of course, one is too young. I don’t know which one he went to church with. One is 15 or 16 and the other is, I think, 10 or 11.

Mr. Griffin. And is there one even younger than 10 or 11?

Mr. Senator. Well, an infant. Maybe she is 2 or 3 years old; something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Did you tell the daughter who you were; who was calling? Did you leave word?

Mr. Senator. I am not sure if I told her to tell her daddy that George called. I am not sure if I did or not. I don’t want to say I did and I don’t want to say I didn’t, because I don’t remember. No; I didn’t leave right after that. I still had a cup of coffee yet. It says I left right after this call.

Mr. Griffin. This is incorrect; is that what you are saying?

Mr. Senator. “He said this attorney was not at home, so he got into his car and drove to the attorney’s house to wait for his return.” This I did not do. What I did was I still sat there and I had two cups of coffee, when this girl hollered out again, “the Carousel, Jack Ruby,” which words were sort of mispronounced the way she said it; this is when I went. Of course, I sat there for a little bit, not knowing what the hell to do. This was stunning. I sort of froze right to the seat when I heard that. Page 300. I read too slow, don’t I?

Mr. Griffin. That is all right. Go ahead.

Mr. Senator. Let me run this through. I don’t catch the last part of this: “He never heard Ruby say Oswald had ever visited either one of the clubs in which Ruby was interested.” Does that mean, in other words, the clubs that Jack owned?

Mr. Griffin. That is right.

Mr. Senator. All right; OK.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you a few questions. You have had a chance to read that all over. Now on page 298 the FBI reports you in this fashion:

“Senator has no accurate idea as to where Ruby had been all day.” That refers to Friday.

Mr. Senator. November 24.

Mr. Griffin. November 22.

Mr. Senator. Twenty-second; yes.

Mr. Griffin. “But does know that, because of the shooting of the President, Ruby has had many businessmen in Dallas close his business. Senator has some recollection Ruby said he had been at his sister’s home for awhile.” Is it fair then to draw the conclusion from that statement that, when you talked with the FBI on November 24, you did know what Ruby had done on Friday night, on Friday other than that he had closed his business, and that he had been at his sister’s?

Mr. Senator. Yes. He went to the police station with sandwiches, I heard.

Mr. Griffin. But, you see, you told the FBI on November 24, when this presumably was as fresh in your mind as it is ever going to be, that you had no accurate idea where Ruby had been all day, and the only things that you could remember were that he closed his business and he had some recollection that he had been at his sister’s home for awhile. You didn’t mention, I take it, to the FBI on the 24th——

Mr. Senator. As a matter of fact, I probably forgot to mention it now, come to think of it, the synagogue and things like that.

Mr. Griffin. You didn’t mention the synagogue. You didn’t mention that he had been to the police station. You didn’t mention——

Mr. Senator. You must understand, like I told you before, you know, when a man is in a shaken-up condition, it is true that you might say that this should be fresh in my mind, but when a man is in a shaken condition and nervous—and you can’t help but be nervous—so I may have slipped up on some of the things that I probably couldn’t think of momentarily when he was questioning me.

Mr. Griffin. Is it possible that the fact is that on the 24th you really didn’t know, that it was sometime after the 24th that you learned that Jack had been to the police station with sandwiches, and that he had been to the synagogue, that Jack didn’t even tell you this on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. Senator. I didn’t see him Friday.

Mr. Griffin. Saturday morning, that he didn’t tell you Saturday morning that he had been to those places? Is it possible that Jack never told you that?

Mr. Senator. No, no; he did tell me that. How else would I know? How else would I have known that?

Mr. Griffin. You might have learned it since November 24, by talking with somebody or reading something.

Mr. Senator. Why would I want—let me ask you this—why would I want to leave out that he went to the police station—if I were able to think of it—or bringing sandwiches? Why would I want to leave out that he went to the synagogue?

Mr. Griffin. That is why I am suggesting that you didn’t know that on the 24th, that it wasn’t until later.

Mr. Senator. I didn’t know it on the 24th. I didn’t know it. I didn’t see him. I didn’t know it.

Mr. Griffin. All right, on November 24, up until the time you were interviewed by the FBI on November 24, you did not know that Jack had been to the police station, and you did not know that he had been to the synagogue.

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; I did.

Mr. Griffin. You learned about that sometime after the 24th.

Mr. Senator. No; I think I learned it before that.

Mr. Griffin. See; what I am suggesting is that if you did learn it before the 24th, this would have been something you would have remembered.

Mr. Senator. You asked what makes something slip a man’s mind.

Mr. Griffin. Wouldn’t you be more likely to remember he had been to the police station than he had been to visit his sister? If a man had told you on Saturday morning right after the President had been shot that he had been to the police station, and had said anything about what he had done there, wouldn’t that have been something that you would have remembered as being important? You would have been curious, wouldn’t you? You would have asked the man “What did you see down at the police station? Who did you talk to down there?” After all, that was right down there where Oswald was, and where the investigation was going on.

Mr. Senator. It is befuddling. I still think it was Saturday. There is an incident I just happened to think of.

Mr. Griffin. All right.

Mr. Senator. After he had woken me up on Saturday morning, there was a bunch of sandwiches still wrapped that hadn’t been distributed, and—I don’t know—I had no idea how many he bought or how many he had made, but he still come home with maybe 6, 8, 10, or 12 of those sandwiches.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of sandwiches were they?

Mr. Senator. I think they were corn beef and pastrami on rye, if I remember right, on rye bread. This I do remember, and they were still on the kitchen table, and as a matter of fact they were in two bags, if I remember right. They were in two bags. I think he had some cake too, that he bought in the delicatessen.

Mr. Griffin. You saw that Saturday morning when you got up?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Does that recall anything further to your mind?

Mr. Senator. No; now this here I never even told anybody. I never even told this to anybody. This is the first time that I have ever exposed this. It don’t matter who is questioning me, this is the first time. Now why didn’t I think of this?

Mr. Griffin. This is not so extraordinary.

Mr. Senator. No; you may say it is trivial or it may be trivial to me.

Mr. Griffin. That is the kind of a thing that you might forget and that is also the kind of thing that as you look back from this period of time——

Mr. Senator. I have been trying to think as much as I could. Now I gather I can remember this part, this one here.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember any discussion with Jack about those sandwiches?

Mr. Senator. Yes; he had been to the police station and he had passed out a lot to various policemen or plainclothesmen. I don’t know who. I don’t know who he passed them out to.

But it seems like I gather that he must have had an awful lot of these made, or whatever it might have been. He must have had a slew of them made. Now why I did it I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Is this possible, that all you would have learned from him, you asked him “Where did you get these sandwiches” and he said “I got them for the men at the police station but they didn’t eat them”? Could that have been the conversation?

Mr. Senator. No; he passed out some; I know. He said he had passed out some sandwiches. As a matter of fact he even took some to his sister.

Mr. Griffin. He took some sandwiches to his sister? When did he take the sandwiches to his sister?

Mr. Senator. That was sometime Friday.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you learn that?

Mr. Senator. From Jack.

Mr. Griffin. I suggest again——

Mr. Senator. I didn’t see his sister.

Mr. Griffin. I suggest again that if Jack had told you that he actually got into the police station and distributed those sandwiches to policemen in the police station, it would have occurred to you to ask, well, you know, what was going on in the investigation.

Mr. Senator. I didn’t ask him what was going on. As a matter of fact, I don’t even know what part of the police station he was in, or any locale of the police station he was in.

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you anything about seeing anybody?

Mr. Senator. He mentioned that he had gone to the police station and gave out sandwiches. That is all I knew about it.

Mr. Griffin. Did he mention seeing anybody else except policemen at the police station?

Mr. Senator. I think he had a glance at Oswald in one of the rooms, or something like that, as he was going by or something of that nature. I am not sure of this.

Mr. Griffin. But you don’t know whether you knew that on the 24th or not, do you, or whether this is something you read later on?

Mr. Senator. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember. I can’t say “Yes” or say “No,” or what rooms he was in. I don’t know just where he went at the police station.

Mr. Griffin. Whatever happened to all those sandwiches? Did you eat them up?

Mr. Senator. Well, if I didn’t eat but one or two I would be a fool, wouldn’t I? I mean look, I like corn beef and pastrami. I mean the windup was when he got around to home, he didn’t have that many left already.

Mr. Griffin. How many did you see in those paper bags? You said you saw 8 or 10 in the paper bags.

Mr. Senator. Yes; but I can’t eat 8 or 10 sandwiches.

Mr. Griffin. Let’s take a break.

(Short recess taken.)

Mr. Griffin. Let me now state for the record that we had a short break here for refreshments, and Mr. Senator has had an opportunity to read a document which is known as Exhibit 5402, which I had previously marked, and in reviewing the documents which I have marked today, I find that I have dated them April 23, 1964, when a look at the calendar tells me that the correct date is April 22, 1964, and I have inked over the date so that it now reads April 22, 1964, on Exhibits 5400, 5401, 5402, and I have marked a further “Exhibit 5403,” which exhibit is a copy of an FBI report prepared by Mr. Rawlings and Mr. Glonek, of an interview that they had with Mr. Senator on December 19, 1963.

Now Mr. Senator, you have had an opportunity in this break period to read over Exhibit 5402, which is a copy of a report prepared by Secret Service Agent Elmer W. Moore which he had with you on December 3, 1963. Have you had an opportunity to read that exhibit through?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. I ask you as we did with the previous exhibit to indicate if there are any changes or corrections or clarifications that you would want to make in Mr. Moore’s report, and I specifically point out again that what I am directing my attention to here is whether Mr. Moore’s report is an accurate report of what you told him on that day. I might also reiterate as we have at the beginning of every session which has been resumed here that, of course, we are taking this under the same procedures and formalities that we have had since the beginning here, and that the oath which you took on Tuesday morning is still in effect.

Mr. Senator. Now on this here, of course, this goes back many, many years. This is just the location that is a location and not a name of a person.

Mr. Griffin. Point out what it is.

Mr. Senator. “About 1934 he returned to Gloversville and left there with neighbors, the Sebring family to go to Florida.” Now, Sebring, it is a city, not people.

Mr. Griffin. You didn’t leave with the Sebring family?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. You left to go to Sebring, Fla.?

Mr. Senator. Went to Sebring, Fla.

Mr. Griffin. Who did you go to Sebring, Fla. with?

Mr. Senator. The name was Eggens.

Mr. Griffin. They were neighbors from Gloversville?

Mr. Senator. Yes; they were neighbors from Gloversville. They lived for many, many years in Lake Placid, N.Y., and I went with them and, of course, today their whereabouts—I know the mother is deceased—and where they are I don’t know. I haven’t seen them in a zillion years.

“On August 21, 1941, he entered the Army Air Force and was assigned serial number 12006042.” I probably should comment is off there. It doesn’t really make any difference. “He served mainly as an aerial armorer with the Fifth Bomber Command 33d Group in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War Second.”

There is a correction on that. I was with the 22d Bomber Group 33d Bomb Squadron. That is the only correction on that, if you want that.

Mr. Griffin. Yes; that is fine because we are happy to have that. In fact why don’t you take your pen and make that correction right on the piece of paper?

Mr. Senator. How can I get it on there, they are so close together.

Mr. Griffin. Cross out something and write it in.

Mr. Senator. To go through this whole thing I would have to say I was with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command. Well, the Fifth Bomber Command is there. Do you want Fifth Air Force?

Mr. Griffin. Is there something that is inaccurate in there?

Mr. Senator. The only thing is I was with the 22d Bomb Group, 33d Bomb Squadron.

Mr. Griffin. So what you want to do is write out in the margin.

Mr. Senator. Do you want me to cross this out?

Mr. Griffin. Why don’t you just change the 33d Group to 33d Squadron. Change group to squadron, and then add what the bomber group was.

Mr. Senator. 22d Bomber Group.

Mr. Griffin. Yes; with a little caret or asterisk being there to indicate where you want it to go.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know how important it is, if you want the Fifth Air Force before or we can eliminate it.

Mr. Griffin. In order to identify that group that you were in——

Mr. Senator. In other words, it relates this way. You start off Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, if you want this whole thing, 22d Bomb Group when I was with the 33d Bomb Squadron if you want that.

Mr. Griffin. Write Fifth Air Force in.

Mr. Senator. Do you want that?

Mr. Griffin. Sure.

Mr. Senator. I don’t know where to put it. Do you want me to put it on top here?

Mr. Griffin. Sure.

Mr. Senator. Fifth Air Force comes first.

Mr. Griffin. So we have edited this to read “He served mainly as an aerial armorer with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, 22d Bomb Group, 33d Squadron in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War II.” Why don’t you initial and date the changes?

Mr. Senator. Is one sufficient for the whole?

Mr. Griffin. Put a set of initials and date by each one and remember it is April 22.

Mr. Senator. I think there is one I put on the 23d come to think of it somewheres on something.

Mr. Griffin. We will try to find that. I think you did make that change. You didn’t date the previous change made on Exhibit 5401.

Mr. Senator. I am writing 4-23 here. It is 4-22. Can I put in here and say “He was honorably discharged” or just “discharged satisfactory.”

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead, if you want to clarify it to say honorably discharged.

Mr. Senator. There is a difference.

Mr. Griffin. Yes; there is and I can understand why you would want that in there. Now you have made some other changes on here I notice. You have added on page 2 of Agent Moore’s report in the first sentence the word “Honorably” so that that sentence reads “He was honorably.”

Mr. Senator. I should say honorably discharged.

Mr. Griffin. Honorably discharged as a staff sergeant on September 9, 1945. In the first full paragraph on this page, the last sentence you have changed the spelling of the name Wexler from W-e-x-l-e-r to W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r, and that is the name of the man to whom your former wife is now married.

Mr. Senator. I am the one who gave him that other spelling because I didn’t spell it right.

Mr. Griffin. In the second paragraph on that same page, the last sentence, you have added the words “Texas Postcards and Novelty, Dallas, Texas” before the words “Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York” so that that sentence reads: “He is presently a salesman of colored postcards for Texas Postcard and Novelty, Dallas, Texas, Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York.” Now let me ask you this. Are the Texas Postcard and Novelty Company and Dexter Press——

Mr. Senator. Excuse me, they make the cards, they print the cards.

Mr. Griffin. So what you really do is you sell these cards for Dexter Postcard?

Mr. Senator. No: I don’t sell them for Dexter.

Mr. Griffin. You sell them for Texas Postcard and Novelty?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. From Dexter Press?

Mr. Senator. Dexter are the ones who make prints.

Mr. Griffin. Let me add the word “from.” I have added the word “from.” I will hand you back Mr. Moore’s report. Why don’t you continue on through it and read whatever it is that you think should be changed and then we will make the changes.

Mr. Senator. This “He made business calls and stopped for lunch at a place called Jacques,” now shall I put in front of lunch——

Mr. Griffin. It is understood you didn’t have anything to eat but had something to drink. A cocktail or something?

Mr. Senator. I think I had two bottles of beer. Do you want that changed?

Mr. Griffin. Why don’t you cross out “lunch” and say “two bottles of beer.”

Mr. Senator. Now maybe I said I had lunch. I don’t even remember. I ain’t going to question this. You know that I just changed that.

Mr. Griffin. You changed lunch to what? What did you write, two bottles of beer?

Mr. Senator. “Two beers.” Just a misspelling of a street here. Do you want that corrected?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; if you would.

Mr. Senator. With the same category as the beer place, the name of the street.

Mr. Griffin. Yes, correct the spelling. What is the name? You have changed the word Carol Street on page 3 from C-a-r-o-l to C-a-r-r-o-l-l. That is fine.

Mr. Senator. Do you want that initialed?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; if you would please.

Mr. Senator. “He returned to the apartment and went to bed approximately 10:30 p.m. He does not recall seeing Ruby again that day.” It is not recall seeing him, I didn’t see him.

Mr. Griffin. Why don’t you change recall to didn’t.

Mr. Senator. Now I stated here for the point of information before that “Jack told him” which is me “that he had been at his sister Eva’s place,” said that he had bought food for her.” In other words, when he bought all this stuff there he bought her some too.

Mr. Griffin. In other words, it was your understanding when you talked with Agent Moore that Jack had bought the sandwiches and so forth before he went to Eva Grant’s house on Friday night?

Mr. Senator. Yes; now let me ask you this. When I am talking to them, are they taking this word by word or what? Do you know? I don’t even know myself.

Mr. Griffin. It depends. Of course I wasn’t at this interview.

Mr. Senator. I know that. This is why I asked you.

Mr. Griffin. They are obviously not taking it down word for word as our court stenographer is here.

Mr. Senator. I know they do it in longhand which is tough. It is not easy.

Mr. Griffin. He is taking notes which hopefully are going to be accurate. After all, these men are highly trained people.

Mr. Senator. I am certain they are.

Mr. Griffin. They are trained to take notes.

Mr. Senator. I am certain they are.

Mr. Griffin. And to do it as accurately as they can. But there are mistakes that crop up.

Mr. Senator. Who isn’t fallible somewhere or another. I think there is a misinterpretation of this word that “he had bought food for her.” Brought food for her.

Mr. Griffin. Would it make any difference?

Mr. Senator. Not in all reality, I don’t know, because when he bought all this food, if you asked me how much he bought I don’t know but apparently, I have been under the impression that he bought quite a bit of things, because if he took food over to the police station, he couldn’t go there with six or seven sandwiches I know if he was working of that nature, to bring food over there. So I assumed there must have been many, many sandwiches and pastries of some nature that he had brought over there.

Mr. Griffin. I am interested, Mr. Senator, in this. That even in this interview with Mr. Moore on the 3d of December you don’t make any reference about Jack telling you that he went to the police station.

Mr. Senator. Maybe I forgot that.

Mr. Griffin. And that is why I ask you again if it is not possible—now this interview was not under the same kind of pressure?

Mr. Senator. No; that is right. You are right on that. All I can say is maybe it is just a thing that slipped my mind.

Mr. Griffin. Or is it possible that in fact all you remembered was that Jack had said that he bought food for Eva, and that he hadn’t mentioned anything about going to the police station?

Mr. Senator. No; this is the same time when he bought all this stuff, when he bought these bags. Mind you, when I mentioned about these bags, this is the first time that I have even thought about this to anybody that I spoke to, see.

Mr. Griffin. Now keep in mind the distinction between what Jack——

Mr. Senator. Even though this thing slipped my mind all the way through completely.

Mr. Griffin. Yes; but try to focus on this distinction, the difference between what Jack told you on Friday night or Saturday morning, and what you later learned some time afterward. I ask you if it isn’t possible that you learned about Jack’s going to the police station after you talked with Agent Moore, and that that is the reason that you didn’t tell this to the police and you didn’t tell it to the FBI and you didn’t tell it to Agent Moore, because you knew about the sandwiches when you talked with Moore, and when you talked with the FBI, and you knew about going to Eva’s, but at that point you didn’t know of any connection between the sandwiches and the police station.

Mr. Senator. The only way that I can really express this, it could be a probability and then it couldn’t, in other words, I can’t answer the question truthfully and be sure. I say I am not sure. What else could I say on that?

Mr. Griffin. All right, this is what we are trying to get at.

Mr. Senator. I still ain’t sure if I did or didn’t mind you.

Mr. Griffin. Because the thing that I want to explore here is whether——

Mr. Senator. But I knew about the sandwiches the next day because I saw them.

Mr. Griffin. You knew about the sandwiches, right?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. But the thing I am trying to direct your attention at is whether you knew about Jack’s visit to the police station and I am suggesting to you that if you had known on the 23d or the 24th about Jack’s visit to the police station, you would have had some further conversation with Jack. If Jack had said, or if I had said to you, “George, I just was down to the police station and I took some sandwiches down there” on this particular day, why you would have said to me, “Did you see Oswald? What was going on? What kind of investigation?” That visit to the police station would have been a more important thing than the sandwiches. So that if Jack really told you this on Saturday, the 23d, I am suggesting that there might be some further conversation that you and he had, because you would ask him questions about what he saw, out of curiosity, and you don’t seem to recall any such conversation.

Mr. Senator. It is not fresh in my mind right now. I am inclined to think that he did, but if I had to say 100 percent I really can’t answer you now. I just don’t remember now. I was sort of under the impression that I was told. It is hazy in my mind. I can’t say yes or no. I am not going to say no and I am not going to say yes that he did or didn’t.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t have any clear recollection?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Of any conversation about his being down at the police station?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t remember, so in other words this is a thing I would have to leave in question. Here is a question that I am not even sure of. “Senator said that Ruby was very hot about this article and commented that Weissman did not spell his name as a Jew but if he were a Jew he should be ashamed of himself.”

Mr. Griffin. What is your feeling about that now.

Mr. Senator. I don’t ever remember telling him that. Now I don’t say that I did or didn’t, but I don’t know why I had the reason to say that he didn’t spell his name as a Jew. Wait a minute “that he did not spell his name as a Jew” I just can’t figure why I would say that because Bernard Weissman to me sounds Jewish no matter how I look at the name. This is the part I don’t understand on this.

Mr. Griffin. Is it your recollection that Jack was hot under the collar about this ad?

Mr. Senator. Oh, yes; oh, yes. This I remember he was.

Mr. Griffin. You found that ad independently of Jack as I understand it.

Mr. Senator. I found that ad Thursday night when I bought the paper.

Mr. Griffin. Thursday before the President arrived?

Mr. Senator. Or was it Friday? Thursday or Friday. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Something makes you think it was Thursday night?

Mr. Senator. Maybe, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. What is that that makes you think that?

Mr. Senator. Wait a minute. I may have bought this paper Thursday night because it come out in the paper the day the President arrived when I read it. Or did it come out Friday? I don’t remember. Was it Friday?

Mr. Griffin. Of course, I don’t know.

Mr. Senator. It was a Friday’s paper.

Mr. Griffin. And the Friday morning news hits the newsstands on Thursday night, does it not?

Mr. Senator. That is right.

Mr. Griffin. Now are you in the habit of picking up a morning newspaper the night before?

Mr. Senator. It all depends the hour. If I am out at that hour and if the paper is out at that hour.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what you did the night before the President came to Dallas?

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t know what I did Thursday at all. I don’t know what I did. Now there is a little twist in the thing right now. After we saw the paper and the poster, he has just got this twisted around.

Mr. Griffin. Read what he has and then let’s talk about it.

Mr. Senator. “They went to the Southland Hotel Coffee Shop and had coffee, Ruby drinking grapefruit juice. While there Ruby reread the ad and made comments about it. They left the coffee shop and went to the main Dallas post office on Ervay where Ruby rang the night bell.” Then it continues, but the thing is this is reversed.

Mr. Griffin. What you are saying is that you went to the post office before you had coffee?

Mr. Senator. Yes. This is reversed. Now does the reversal mean anything?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. There is a bunch that you have to reverse in this.

Mr. Griffin. Let’s get it straight then as to what actually happened there.

Mr. Senator. You want to reread it from here? It sounds all right except the reversal.

Mr. Griffin. You read everything that is wrong, everything that is reversed and so forth and then we will try to put it in proper order.

Mr. Senator. The only thing I can do is read the reversal and leave the other as it is. In other words, when he is doing this he would have to say this was first and the other was last. I don’t know how to do it.

Mr. Griffin. You read the text that is improper.

Mr. Senator. In other words, take these down in a line, is that what you mean?

Mr. Griffin. From the point that it gets out of order.

Mr. Senator. What I just read where it was out of order?

Mr. Griffin. The only two things out of order, let me understand this, are that you went to the post office before you went to the Southland Hotel?

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And so the discussion you had at the Southland Hotel about the Weissman ad occurred after you saw the Earl Warren sign and after you went to the post office?

Mr. Senator. That is right. Now do you want some change in here?

Mr. Griffin. No; I think that is clear.

Mr. Senator. Let me finish the balance of this. That whole complete thing is right now.

Mr. Griffin. We have corrected it on the record?

Mr. Senator. Yes. When he is quoting about a certain time, if it is an hour off or a half hour off, is there any difference?

Mr. Griffin. Well, if you have——

Mr. Senator. He says about which is all right. He has got a time there.

Mr. Griffin. Do you think your recollection now is more accurate.

Mr. Senator. No, no. All I want to know when it says about. In other words, that means approximately a certain time, in that area, is that right?

Mr. Griffin. That is right.

Mr. Senator. That is all. Let me ask you on something like this. Maybe I ain’t reading this correct. “He said the fact that Ruby had the dog Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon.”

Mr. Griffin. Yes. What is unclear about that?

Mr. Senator. It sounds like I was telling him that he went to the police station. This is the way it sounds to me.

Mr. Griffin. No; it sounds to me like you are saying to Agent Moore that because Jack had Sheba with him down there at the police station, you draw the conclusion that Jack just went down there on a casual basis and intended to come back.

Mr. Senator. All I know is that when he left the house he had Sheba with him. That I know.

Mr. Griffin. Now do you draw any particular significance about his having Sheba with him? Does the fact that he had Sheba with him suggest something to you about Jack planning to kill Oswald and not planning—— Mr. Senator. I’ll tell you how this sounds to me like unless I’m not reading it. It sounds like I told him that when Jack went to the police office he had Sheba with him. That is the way it sounds to me.

Mr. Griffin. No; what Agent Moore, I think, is suggesting, at least the way I read it——

Mr. Senator. You read it. Start with “He said.”

Mr. Griffin. All right, let’s read the sentence before that.

“Senator said there were several things that may not have come to the attention of the authorities which would indicate to him that Ruby had not planned to shoot Oswald. He said the fact that Ruby had the dog Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon. Also, the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car. Senator said he was convinced that Ruby had emotionally worked himself up to such a pitch that when he saw Oswald in the basement of the police station he went out of his head.”

Now as I read those sentences, what you are saying is that if anybody were to learn of all of the facts that took place they should pay particular attention to the fact that Ruby had his dog Sheba in the car when he went to the police station, because that indicates that Ruby intended to come back from the police station before he went down there.

Do you still feel that way?

Mr. Senator. That he intended to come back?

Mr. Griffin. That Ruby, if Ruby had intended—are you saying that if Ruby had intended to shoot Oswald before he drove down to the police station, he wouldn’t have taken Sheba along?

Mr. Senator. That isn’t what I said.

Mr. Griffin. That is not what you said?

Mr. Senator. No. I said I read that like it sounds to me. I must be reading it wrong but it sounds to me like I said he was going to the police station with Sheba.

Mr. Griffin. No; we understand that you are not saying that at all. What I am asking you is if you mean to say that in your mind Jack Ruby would not have taken Sheba down to the police station with him if Jack Ruby ever intended to shoot Oswald.

Mr. Senator. I don’t think he would; no.

Mr. Griffin. But do you think he might have anyhow?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that.

Mr. Griffin. Are you saying now as you think about this further, the fact that he had the dog with him is not an overriding fact in deciding whether Jack had any plan to shoot Oswald before he went down there?

Mr. Senator. To my knowledge I would say that he had definitely no plans. Now the money part——

Mr. Griffin. But would you say this, that if Jack Ruby had planned, let’s assume for the sake of argument that Jack Ruby planned to kill Oswald before he went down to the police station. Now if Jack had that plan in his mind, are you saying he never would have taken Sheba along with him?

Mr. Senator. No; I definitely don’t think he would ever take the dog with him.

Mr. Griffin. What would he have done with the dog?

Mr. Senator. I assume he would have probably, wherever he was going with the dog, maybe he was going to the club or what it is.

Mr. Griffin. Why do you say that?

Mr. Senator. What?

Mr. Griffin. Why do you say that?

Mr. Senator. Well, all I can say is I know how much he likes that dog, and the dog is always with him, no matter where he goes.

Mr. Griffin. Is there any reason why Jack——

Mr. Senator. No particular reason.

Mr. Griffin. Jack wouldn’t figure that you or somebody else wouldn’t have picked that dog up later and taken care of it?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Or isn’t it possible that Jack just at this point forgot about the consequences to the dog?

Mr. Senator. I can’t even answer that.

Mr. Griffin. Then would you say that the mere fact that Jack had Sheba with him doesn’t prove one way or another whether he planned to kill Oswald?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think he planned nohow.

Mr. Griffin. I know you don’t think that, but I want to know what significance we should put on the fact that he had Sheba with him. As I understand what you have been saying now, one could draw the conclusion that simply because he had Sheba with him doesn’t prove conclusively one way or another that he had a plan or didn’t have a plan.

Mr. Senator. I can’t conceive anyhow that this man had any plans, nohow.

Mr. Griffin. If you knew that Jack Ruby had taken Sheba to the club and locked her in the club and left instructions for somebody to take care of Sheba, would that affect your attitude as to whether Jack planned to kill Oswald or not? Would you still say——

Mr. Senator. I would say it would still be of the same nature having the dog. I don’t think he would do anything like that.

Mr. Griffin. You just don’t think he planned to kill Oswald?

Mr. Senator. No; definitely not. I just never could visualize it. I can’t visualize anything like this.

Mr. Griffin. You also say in this, Moore also reports in this statement this language: “Also the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car.” Now I take it from that language that you are saying that you also think that Jack would have taken the cash receipts back to the club if he had planned to kill Oswald?

Mr. Senator. The only thing I can say is that I would have to guess on my own and say I can only surmise that he wouldn’t have had any cash with him. That is what I would guess. I don’t know. First of all, he carries money both ways, see. Now Jack has always been under the impression wherever he goes, daytime or nighttime, that money, I don’t say all his money but a certain part of money, what ever he puts in, is safe in the trunk. He feels it is safe in the trunk.

Mr. Griffin. Let’s suppose Jack Ruby had done this. Let’s suppose he had taken his dog Sheba to the Carousel Club, left a note for somebody as to how to take care of Sheba, and had taken all the money out of the back of his car and locked it in the safe at the Carousel Club.

Mr. Senator. What safe?

Mr. Griffin. Didn’t he have a safe there?

Mr. Senator. He bought a safe but it was never fixed. He bought a safe, I’ll tell you the kind of a safe he bought. To my knowledge it has never been put to use. He bought a safe that fits into the ground. Did you ever see these little round things that fit into the——

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. Well, this thing never materialized because the structure was never made for the safe, never made into the ground. Now if he ever used the safe I don’t even know.

Mr. Griffin. And did Jack ever put his money——

Mr. Senator. Excuse me. The reason I say I feel he didn’t, which I really don’t know, I don’t think he did, because the safe was able to be carried. It wasn’t that big thing but when you cement it around you can’t get to it.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this. Was Jack in the habit of putting his money in the bank?

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. In other words, Jack’s safe was his car?

Mr. Senator. Not necessarily. He had it in his car, he had it in his pocket, and he had it around the house.

Mr. Griffin. But you stated a while ago that Jack felt that if he had the money locked in the trunk of the car that was as good as being in the safe?

Mr. Senator. Yes; I did, but I didn’t say all the monies. I said a certain part of the monies. Now what part of it I don’t know, because I know he carried some in there. I know he carried some in his pocket. I know he leaves some at home.

Mr. Griffin. Did he leave any at home on the 24th?

Mr. Senator. If he did I don’t know. I’ll tell you why, the reason I say that is because he has in the living room that has got one of these self-locks. Did you ever see these little locks on a door that you can lock. You know, you can sort of snip it off? It comes off, whatever kind of lock you call it?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. He has one of them. He had one of them in the living room. See, his apartment that night was confiscated. I don’t know if it was the local police. I don’t know who got in there. Somebody got in there, see.

Mr. Griffin. But it certainly wasn’t unusual, was it, for Jack to carry all of his money on his person and in his car?

Mr. Senator. No; he has done that many times. But I’ll tell you, when he is putting the money in his car he very seldom ever left it there for such a lengthy time like that. But this was his safest place as far as not carrying it all in his pocket.

Mr. Griffin. And he felt that keeping it in the car was safer than keeping it in the house.

Mr. Senator. This I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Now you say this was the longest time that you can remember Jack carrying a lot or that much money around with him?

Mr. Senator. Oh, no; I never said that.

Mr. Griffin. What did you mean to say?

Mr. Senator. I never said that.

Mr. Griffin. In other words, there have been times when Jack, I take it there have been periods of 3 days or more when Jack has carried $2,000 or $3,000?

Mr. Senator. Or more. No; this is an every day occurrence with him. This is a thing that materialized 7 days a week.

Mr. Griffin. So there is nothing unusual about Jack Ruby having all that money in his automobile.

Mr. Senator. No; it is always like that. Now if he has any money in the bank, I mean I can’t quote that because I don’t see that. See, he carries this money around 7 days a week. Now what he has in the bank, of course, I have quoted you that once before, I think that was yesterday, I don’t know what he has got. Only when you ask what bank he has, when I mentioned the Merchants State Bank, I don’t know if the guy has got $40 in there or $500, you know what I mean? I don’t know.

Or whatever he has had in there or how he has had it. See, this is an unusual man when it comes to this money bit. I don’t know how many times he asked me, “George, where is my money?” making me feel like I took it but he always misplaced it and always found it.

Mr. Griffin. Is this a large sum of money that he misplaced?

Mr. Senator. Sometimes it could be missing $200 or $300 or $400, I don’t know. Whatever the stake is, he has about 4, 5 or 6 different stakes in different pockets. This man don’t remember where the money is. This may sound crazy but it is true.

Mr. Griffin. Did Jack own any real estate?

Mr. Senator. No; what is he going to use for money for the real estate? A lot of people are under the impression that Jack had a lot of money. Jack didn’t. Jack was, what would you classify him, as a walking bank?

Mr. Griffin. He carried all his money on his person regardless of how much it was.

Mr. Senator. Yes; this man was making who knows, I don’t know how much money he has got and I can’t break it down and say he is carrying 10, 5 or whatever. Who knows what he has got or how much it is. But there has been 2, 3, 4, maybe more.

Mr. Griffin. What, hundred or thousand dollars?

Mr. Senator. Thousands, whatever it is. Of course, as I told you, this all goes to the rent, the help, the electricity, you know, all the utilities and things. But he is a walking bank.

Mr. Griffin. Is this common knowledge that he carried all this money around?

Mr. Senator. That was common knowledge to me. How many other people knew it I don’t know but I am certain other people knew it. Look, when the help all got paid off they were all paid off in cash. When they wanted to borrow money they were all paid off in cash. Just like here I can’t quote how much money he had at any time.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now let me ask you to read over what I have marked as Washington, D.C., April 22, 1964, George Senator Deposition, Exhibit 5403, and I signed that. It is the report of Agents Rawlings and Glonek. Would you read that over, and tell me, go through that in the same fashion as we have with the others.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Are there any additions, corrections, or explanations that you feel ought to be made to Exhibit 5403?

Mr. Senator. Let me go through this fast. I think there aren’t but let me make sure.

Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you before we get into this, was that interview made at your request?

Mr. Senator. No; I was sent for. Why would I request it?

Mr. Griffin. I don’t know. Some people call the FBI and tell them they have something more to tell them.

Mr. Senator. No; I was sent for. I have had a pretty good amount of questioning you know. I, like any other individual of the nature that I am, I don’t think is too happy about all this. And who would be?

Mr. Griffin. Now that you raise that, we might get on the record the fact that I believe you have expressed to me at lunch during the last 2 days that you feel that this is an unfortunate circumstance in your life.

Mr. Senator. Certainly it is. It ain’t going to do my life any good.

Mr. Griffin. Would you explain? Would you want to convey some of the feelings here on the record that you gave to me?

Mr. Senator. I feel I will always be pointed at, if anybody knows my name of the nature of the conditions that surrounds me.

Mr. Griffin. You feel a certain amount of shame or disgrace?

Mr. Senator. No; let me say there will probably be a disturbance. They will always point to Jack Ruby’s roommate, Jack Ruby’s roommate, something of that nature, you know. What does phonetic mean?

Mr. Griffin. That means that they don’t know whether the spelling is correct, but without knowing how to correctly spell it that is the way they would write it, from the sound. Mr. Senator, as you read through that if you come to anything that you think ought to be modified or changed, why, point it out, because I assume that the two pages that you have read so far——

Mr. Senator. I am reading it pretty fast. I am a little bit on the punchy side, you know.

Mr. Griffin. If you want us to walk out and sort of relieve your mind.

Mr. Senator. No; there is one item in here where it states “He carried his money in a sack.” This is only partial. It was in his pockets, in the sack.

Mr. Griffin. The trunk of the car?

Mr. Senator. The trunk of the car. No, no; mind you if it is in the sack it goes in the trunk of the car.

Mr. Griffin. Anything else in that interview report that you would want to——

Mr. Senator. No; I don’t know if this means anything, it is in his pocket, to you I mean. I don’t know. This says here where he took the revolver and placed it on the bag on top of the money. This is not always——

Mr. Griffin. What did he place on the bag on top of the money?

Mr. Senator. The gun on top of the moneybag. “Placed it in the bag on top of the money.” To me it is not important. The gun may be next to it or something like that, who knows where he put it.

Mr. Griffin. Now let me ask you a couple of closing questions. One thing we haven’t talked about here. That was, how many sets of keys did Jack Ruby have?

Mr. Senator. To the clubs?

Mr. Griffin. Did he have more than one key chain?

Mr. Senator. I think he had two small ones. I think one for the car, I’m not sure now. He had keys but I don’t know what they all fit you know. I think he had one for the car and I think one for the place.

Mr. Griffin. Did he keep all of his car keys on one ring or did he have them on two different rings?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t know?

Mr. Senator. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have one billfold or more than one billfold?

Mr. Senator. I have never seen a billfold.

Mr. Griffin. You have never seen his billfold?

Mr. Senator. You mean to carry his paper money in billfolds? No.

Mr. Griffin. Identification and things like that. Did he have a wallet?

Mr. Senator. I don’t think he ever had a wallet. I don’t recall seeing any.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever see his driver’s license?

Mr. Senator. Did I ever see his driver’s license?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. Or social security.

Mr. Senator. No.

Mr. Griffin. When he got undressed at night did he put his billfold—what did he do with his——

Mr. Senator. I never seen his billfold. I think he carries them—what he carried these things in, he had a little thing, you know a little thing that opened up and you slide it to one side or the other, sort of like what, a little money fold.

Mr. Hubert. Sort of like an accordian?

Mr. Senator. No; it didn’t even open up like that. In other words it opened up like a covered book or one of these little things.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have identification in that?

Mr. Senator. I never seen into it. It could be.

Mr. Griffin. Was it the type of thing you could put identification in?

Mr. Senator. I am certain he probably could have.

Mr. Griffin. Would you recognize it if you saw it?

Mr. Senator. The thing?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; that you describe.

Mr. Senator. I am not sure. I might. I couldn’t say positive. As a matter of fact even the coloration, I wouldn’t know if it was green or black.

Mr. Griffin. Did he have any habit of leaving car keys in his automobile that you know of?

Mr. Senator. I think only at the garage. See, the garage is right downstairs from the club next door, which they watch his car constantly because he has rented this place on a monthly basis which he has had for I don’t know how long.

Mr. Griffin. And where would he leave the keys then, in the ignition?

Mr. Senator. I think the keys were left in the ignition.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if you ever had occasion to look in the glove compartment of Jack’s car?

Mr. Senator. I have looked at it but it is such a jingle-jangle there that it didn’t mean anything as far as opening it up. There was so much gook in there, do you know what I mean?

Mr. Griffin. Yes. Did you ever have any occasion to look in the trunk of his car?

Mr. Senator. I have seen the trunk open; yes, and that is another slop house, with a bunch of garbage in there. I told him a thousand times “How can you open your trunk and not clean it up? How can you keep that garbage in there.”

Mr. Griffin. What sort of things would he keep in there?

Mr. Senator. There would be papers. In other words, things weren’t placed. You take a tire, you think the tire is in the right place? It could be any place in that thing there, and all the other garbage that he had in there, and papers, whatever it is. He kept his car like he kept his apartment.

Mr. Griffin. You don’t have any knowledge, or do you——

Mr. Senator. I have never gone through his trunk.

Mr. Griffin. As to what he had in there?

Mr. Senator. In the trunk?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Senator. No. To me it looked like a bunch of garbage he had in there.

Mr. Griffin. Have you ever had occasion to drive his automobile?

Mr. Senator. Yes; but very seldom because he didn’t want me to handle it and I’ll tell you why. No insurance. That is why he didn’t want me to drive his car. Very seldom was I ever allowed to drive that car.

Mr. Griffin. On the occasions when you drove his automobile, from where did you get the automobile keys?

Mr. Senator. From him.

Mr. Griffin. Off of his person?

Mr. Senator. Yes; from the house, yes, when he was home. And sometimes I would drive for him when he is tired, like he feels he is going to fall asleep, and I have done this you know from the club to the apartment where he feels he maybe fall asleep at the wheel. This is one of the things where he wouldn’t let me drive because he had no insurance, and I wasn’t anxious to drive the car on account of that either.

Mr. Griffin. Now you and I have had lunch together.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And we have had breaks here and on these occasions we have talked and you have talked with Mr. Hubert also on these occasions. Is there anything that we talked with you about in these times when we haven’t had a court reporter present that we haven’t covered here in our deposition?

Mr. Senator. It would be hard for me to think what you have left out, you know. I have never had a questioning like this in my life before. When I originally came down here I thought I would only be here—I thought the questioning would probably be similar to being questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service. First of all how was I to know? What was I to expect, see? I just couldn’t believe that I would be here 2 days. I couldn’t think how it was possible where you could ask me so many questions, both of you.

Mr. Hubert. In any case you don’t recall anything dealing with the case, an aspect of it that was the subject of a conversation which has not been discussed on the record?

Mr. Senator. Offhand, I can’t. Offhand, I just can’t think of any because I think you all know more than I know. If you can remember the Times Square Cafeteria you know more than I know. You are not going to put that too, are you?

Mr. Griffin. Let me then ask this one final question.

Mr. Senator. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. If anything should come to your attention in the future, which pertains to the Ruby case that could be of assistance to us, will you contact somebody in the Government and let them know so that we can have a complete record here. He is nodding his head yes.

Mr. Senator. Because he can’t write the nod down there?

Mr. Hubert. Thank you very much indeed for coming.

Mr. Griffin. I want to say to him that it has been a pleasure to talk with you; we think your cooperation has been most helpful.

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