Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15)

by United States. Warren Commission

TESTIMONY OF MRS. EVA GRANT RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 7:30 p.m.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I understand that you returned to Chicago to live some time prior to the war, is that correct?

Mrs. Grant. Let’s see—every year I went home—I may have stayed a month, 3 months or 4 months.

Mr. Hubert. No; I mean on a permanent basis.

Mrs. Grant. I was never there permanent after I married Frank Grant. I mean, if I was there—the longest time I was there is the year my father was sick before he died.

Mr. Hubert. All right; let me put it this way—I am going to ask you if you know some names of people and if you don’t know them, all right, but if you do know them, tell us what you know about them. For instance, Frank Howard and Jack Howard—do you know those people?

Mrs. Grant. No; I don’t, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And a man by the name of Erwin Berke [spelling] B-e-r-k-e. Do you know him?

Mrs. Grant. Never—just doesn’t ring a bell, I never have heard the name.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Sam Jaffe [spelling] J-a-f-f-e?

Mrs. Grant. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Sam Chavin [spelling] C-h-a-v-i-n?

Mrs. Grant. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Perhaps you knew his wife, Charlotte Chavin, who is the daughter of Sam Jaffe, did you ever see her?

Mrs. Grant. Where are they from; do you have an idea?

Mr. Hubert. They were from Chicago, ma’am, and they subsequently moved to Muncie, Ind.

Mrs. Grant. I never heard of them—I never heard of them.

Mr. Hubert. You never heard of them?

Mrs. Grant. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever know of any connection that Jack might have had with those people?

Mrs. Grant. It wasn’t a close connection. We knew some Jaffes—I mean, as kids—they were in the undertaking business, but I haven’t heard of them in years.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know a daughter of Sam Jaffe whose name was Charlotte and she married Sam Chavin?

Mrs. Grant. No, sir; I can’t recall.

Mr. Hubert. Then there was another daughter who married Erwin Berke.

Mrs. Grant. What was her first name? Can I ask you a question—how far back does the names go?

Mr. Hubert. This would have been around the period of the war—1942 to 1946.

Mrs. Grant. I wasn’t around Chicago that much in those years—you see—I was here and on the west coast.

Mr. Hubert. In any case, these names don’t ring a bell?

Mrs. Grant. No, sir; I can’t place them at all unless they are mispronounced or misspelled, but Jaffes—I did know.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know any Jaffes who moved from Chicago to Muncie, Ind.?

Mrs. Grant. No; no.

Mr. Hubert. The Jaffes you did know were in an earlier period; is that right?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. And as far as you know, they didn’t move to Muncie, Ind.?

Mrs. Grant. In the last 25 years—I can’t place the name close to Jack or me.

Mr. Hubert. What about Paul Labriola [spelling] L-a-b-r-i-o-l-a?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Hubert. What about Hershey Colvin?

Mrs. Grant. I never heard those names.

Mr. Hubert. Jimmy Weinberg?

Mrs. Grant. We are—my mother had a niece that was married to a Weinberg, but there is not one name like that in the family—no Jimmies.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you did, of course, move ultimately to Dallas, which has been your home, I take it, for some period?

Mrs. Grant. On and off for over 20 years—22 years.

Mr. Hubert. When did you first come to Dallas?

Mrs. Grant. I think it was in 1942 or 1943, I was here for a little while.

Mr. Hubert. For how long?

Mrs. Grant. For a few months at least it seems.

Mr. Hubert. What was the purpose of coming here to Dallas; do you remember?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, I came to look—Al Kamin owned the Marlene Sales and he had costume jewelry and he wanted me to sell it, you know, in little stores and I took a sample and I didn’t sell it. I had several samples and I went to work selling magazines for a company, it seems, out of Los Angeles—I don’t know what year it was.

Mr. Hubert. This was in Dallas?

Mr. Grant. Oh, yes; but I mean this particular agency handles all magazines.

Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay in Dallas during that period?

Mrs. Grant. It seems a couple of months—I don’t know—then, I went home. You see, I think it was during the summer—I left my son there in the summer—I just can’t remember—honest to God.

Mr. Hubert. Weren’t you in some sort of an export-import business?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes; but that was later—I think it was in 1944, 1945, 1946, and 1947.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you were living in Dallas on a rather permanent basis during those years?

Mrs. Grant. After that—yes.

Mr. Hubert. So, I gather from your testimony you would fix a time of your permanent domicile or residence in Dallas as about 1944?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me I stayed more here—then. I was here—I would think 3 or 4 years. Even if I went to Chicago I didn’t stay long.

Mr. Hubert. I understand, but your home in the normal sense of the word would have been Dallas after 1944?

Mrs. Grant. I would say from that time on I was just here until 1948, constantly, well, I mean outside of every year—leaving for a few weeks.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now—what was the export-import business?

Mrs. Grant. We really didn’t do any exporting. That was the name of the Berger-Grant Sales Co. Milton Berger was with me—he has since died. We bought and sold caustic soda, soda ash, and my brother Jack made a connection for me to sell irons—regular household irons and lamps and merchandise, but he knew a factory in Chicago and they sent me merchandise and Milton went on the road and through seven or eight States in the South and I handled the business end of it—that was caustic soda, soda ash, and we had a few accounts—the best account I remember is the Rivera people—the Rivera family. They bought soda ash and caustic soda from us.

Mr. Hubert. Who were they?

Mrs. Grant. Well, Jerry Rivera, his home is in Piedras Negras—they are still there.

Mr. Hubert. In what State—in what country?

Mrs. Grant. Isn’t that right over the border in Mexico?

Mr. Hubert. I don’t know—Piedras Negras—is that it?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. It’s in Mexico?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; but he lived in San Antonio a great deal and in Houston he had an office.

Mr. Hubert. Is he alive?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert. When was the last contact with him?

Mrs. Grant. I think I saw him about 4 years ago—maybe 5.

Mr. Hubert. And what connection, do you recall?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, he came through—he was at one of the motels and he called my brother and I went out and had dinner with him.

Mr. Hubert. He called Jack, you mean?

Mrs. Grant. Yes—now, there are several brothers in the family, and I even met his parents the previous year.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall any connection with that Rivera family or any member of it in the last 4 or 5 years?

Mrs. Grant. No; but I do know I met his mother and father. They came to Chicago in one of the summers—like in the middle fifties when I was up there. They had called our home in Chicago and his parents were staying at the Palmer House.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know of any connection whatsoever between your brother, Jack Ruby, and any member of the Rivera family in the last 4 or 5 years?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t think he had any business with them.

Mr. Hubert. Or any connection otherwise?

Mrs. Grant. He only knew them through me.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know of any connection in any way—business, social, or otherwise, in the last 5 years?

Mrs. Grant. Nothing—nothing. I am here now exactly a little over 4 years and I have not left this city for 4 years, outside of going to Hot Springs once for 3 days.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Paul Roland Jones?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert. Would you tell us what you know about him?

Mrs. Grant. I was going with a fellow by the name of Dr. Weldon Duncan. This fellow was here in town, at least he was 2 weeks ago—now—he is a chiropractor and he knew this Roland Jones and Roland told me—that’s it. He told me he was in the export business, not in the export business exactly, wait a minute—brokerage business—of eggs.

Mr. Hubert. When did you meet Paul Roland Jones first?

Mrs. Grant. When I knew him well was before you see, we didn’t have enough money to open the club. Jack was still in the service and Jack says he will sell his interest in the Earl Products—he was in business with the other brothers, do you have it there?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mrs. Grant. OK—well, Jack says when he gets out of this he will send me some money and that could have been the fall or summer of 1947. That seems to be it.

Mr. Hubert. Tell me how you got to meet him?

Mrs. Grant. Well, Dr. Duncan brought him over.

Mr. Hubert. As a friend or in what way?

Mrs. Grant. They came to the club—I mean—just came to that club.

Mr. Hubert. Which club was that?

Mrs. Grant. It was called the Singapore Supper Club at 1717 South Ervay.

Mr. Hubert. You were running that club?

Mrs. Grant. No; the club was not open—we didn’t have chairs or tables.

Mr. Hubert. All right, they came to this place then that was called the Singapore Club that was not yet open?

Mrs. Grant. And I used the office of the club for my other merchandise business. In fact, the club was full with lamps and all other kinds of things.

Mr. Hubert. And this doctor introduced you to Roland Paul Jones?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever have any further connections with Roland Paul Jones?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us about that, please?

Mrs. Grant. We were buying metals, at least we were trying to buy metals and materials to sell to—in fact, gas companies—one is—I have the files, believe me, and I think it’s at Jonesboro—is it in Arkansas or Oklahoma? Well, we got the specifications and Paul Roland Jones brought me a piece of metal, maybe 6 inches long—it’s a certain type of pipe, rather, he brought me, and this man didn’t want it, so I sent it on to Chicago to my brother.

Mr. Hubert. Which brother?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me I sent it to my older brother, Hyman, and he says he knew somebody that might be able to use the amount of footage we had at this place, and we were going to make what you call a finder’s fee or broker’s fee, but little did we know of Paul Roland Jones’ connection, because I’m going to tell you. This man told me several things—“I’m not fit to be in the night club business, I’m not the caliber of a person.”

Mr. Hubert. Who was that—Jones told you that?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; and he seemed to be a very nice fellow and he used my phone for a long distance call to Ardmore, Okla., and I know he paid me $2 or $3 in change when he did it, and I didn’t know a thing about this.

Mr. Hubert. About what, ma’am?

Mrs. Grant. Well, wait a minute, I pick up the headlines and they got Paul Roland Jones in jail somewhere—in Fort Worth. I no sooner picked this up—this paper, the paper of this city, my brother is calling me from Chicago that the FBI or some organization, one of your organizations went to the Congress Hotel where Jack was staying and they are questioning him about whether—about what he knew about Paul Roland Jones. I don’t think Jack ever heard me mention the name.

Mr. Hubert. How long had you known Paul Roland Jones when this occurred?

Mrs. Grant. Not too many months—if it was 6 months or 8 months—it was the longest.

Mr. Hubert. Had you done any business with him?

Mrs Grant. No—never.

Mr. Hubert. It was simply through meeting at the club?

Mrs. Grant. Well, this doctor brought him in one afternoon. He knew him because he went to him for treatment.

Mr. Hubert. Well, that’s the first meeting, but thereafter, what was the basis of the meeting?

Mrs. Grant. Nothing. I mean, he came in, and I went to dinner with him and the doctor once, and we went for a ride, but I’ll tell you, the doctor and I didn’t know anything about his background.

Mr. Hubert. He was ultimately charged, was he not, with the possession of narcotics?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes; in fact, we read the story that night. We were shocked. We knew he took trips, we knew he was married to a dancer in New York, but this all came out—wait a minute, his wife came from New York that summer.

Mr. Hubert. Now, we’ll get into that later. Did Jack know Paul Roland Jones at that time?

Mrs. Grant. If he did—no; I doubt if he ever even heard of him.

Mr. Hubert. Jack had not come down here yet?

Mrs. Grant. If he was, he didn’t stay long.

Mr. Hubert. But to your recollection he didn’t know Jones at all?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t think he has ever seen him—well, wait a minute, he may have seen the man or heard about him.

Mr. Hubert. I understand that, but at the time of this episode that you are telling us about?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t think he ever saw him as far as I know, but I want to tell you that Roland Jones went to Chicago during the period of those 6 months and he did meet my brother Hyman. I don’t know what conversation my brother had—my brother thought he was a nice guy—we didn’t know anything about his background.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what happened to him?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes; he went to jail for something about narcotics from Turkey or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any other charges later against him? Do you know?

Mrs. Grant. Do you want to know something—I went into a hotel here, and let me think, either the Whitmore or the Southland since he has been out, or when he got out, and this friend of mine said, “Guess who got out of jail?” He said “Paul Roland Jones,” and I said, “That’s nice.”

Mr. Hubert. How long ago was that?

Mrs. Grant. This must be 7 years or 8 years—it seems like a long time ago.

Mr. Hubert. Have you seen him since?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; he was here 2 years ago, I think. He came through and he stopped by the Vegas Club one night. Oh, he says, he got in a cab and he was coming through—he probably was here other times but he didn’t want anybody to know—he said he was coming through changing planes and he says he’s sure going to be picked up and he says to say hello to Jack.

Mr. Hubert. When was that?

Mrs. Grant. Maybe a year and a half or 2 years ago.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him in November 1963?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, no.

Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to him on the phone?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know he was in Dallas?

Mrs Grant. No.

Mr. Hubert. Is there anything you know that would indicate that your brother, Jack, knew he was in Dallas?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. In November 1963?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know. I’ll tell you how I figure this out, if I can go see my contract—you see, my band leader was making a record, you know, a record of music.

Mr. Hubert. But so far as your recollection is concerned, it would be over a year from today?

Mrs. Grant. Easy—easy.

Mr. Hubert. And by “contact with him,” of course, I mean—you know—telephone, letters, messages?

Mrs. Grant. No; he came in—he told me that he knows people at Mercury Records and that if I send in the song he was going to make it, and truthfully, I was glad when he came in, when he left, for more reasons than one. We don’t discuss his background or anything.

Mr. Hubert. Now, that’s over a year ago—certainly.

Mrs. Grant. It has been so long—I say a year and a half—the airlines would know quicker than I know because he said he just flew in and he was just there for the evening and going back out, at least that’s what he told me. I don’t discuss his background or anything like that—at least, that’s what he told me.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Taylor Crossley?

Mrs. Grant. What is the first name?

Mr. Hubert. Taylor [spelling] T-a-y-l-o-r.

Mrs. Grant. I know a lot of Taylors here but that is the last name.

Mr. Hubert. No; Crossley. John Melton, and Morris Melton [spelling] M-e-l-t-o-n?

Mrs. Grant. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, do you know a person by the name of Elsie Johnson?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert. How do you know her?

Mrs. Grant. Well, 8 or 9 years ago she was in the building business with my brother, Sam. Before that—she was a commercial artist.

Mr. Hubert. How did you meet her—when did you meet her?

Mrs. Grant. When I first came here, and honest to God, this is one person I can’t tell you even how I met her.

Mr. Hubert. When you first came here—when do you mean?

Mrs. Grant. I would say 20 years ago.

Mr. Hubert. 1944—probably?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; and let me tell you, she knew a girl, Bobby, whether I met Bobby first—she’s a little girl that worked as a cashier at one of the theatres and was it that she introduced me to Bobby—I knew her very well and her sister and her mother and her brothers, and she became a preacher. She ordained herself.

Mr. Hubert. Is she a friend of yours?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I don’t know if she is an enemy—I just don’t know—it has been years since I have seen her. I spoke to her on the phone. It seemed to me she called me November 24, that afternoon, or her sister did.

Mr. Hubert. Who is her sister?

Mrs. Grant. Mary Sue Brown, and I think she worked at Green’s Department Store.

Mr. Hubert. And you knew Mary Sue Brown also?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes; I knew the family. I used to go out there like maybe once a year—Elsie had a car and she would drive me to her mother’s home, which is Mrs. Barnes.

Mr. Hubert. Do they still live in the Dallas area?

Mrs. Grant. I’m sure they do—I probably have their phone number.

Mr. Hubert. And your thought is that the last time you heard from them was that there was a call from Elsie?

Mrs. Grant. How sorry she was about my brother—it was on November the 24th.

Mr. Hubert. That was the last contact you had with her?

Mrs. Grant. No; I saw Mary, let’s see, I saw Mary Sue—I went to one of the stores—I think it was H. L. Green’s and she was waiting on the people, I mean, she was a saleswoman in the store.

Mr. Hubert. And that’s since?

Mrs. Grant. I haven’t seen Mary Sue for maybe a year and a half previously or Elsie, maybe, I don’t think I have seen Elsie since I am back this time—3 or 4 years—I can’t remember.

Mr. Hubert. Was there any difficulty between you and Elsie concerning some ring?

Mrs. Grant. No; the other sister.

Mr. Hubert. Mary Sue Brown?

Mrs. Grant. Mary Sue Brown.

Mr. Hubert. What about that?

Mrs. Grant. Well, she used to come over and stay overnight and I have this diamond ring yet, and it had a little stone in there my mother had given me. There were many stones—from two marriage rings, and a fellow gave me a little stone and my mother’s little—you know, a little diamond—little diamonds. I went to take a bath and I had my money in this purse and it’s a terrible thing—very terrible—it kills me to this day even thinking about it—she was going to stay another day, and I knew how much money I had on me the day before and I bought a little dress and some things I bought. I took her to dinner and stuff like that. She managed to wiggle out of not staying any more. She was very nervous, and that night I get to the club and I put my ring out and you could see the prongs were bent back—the stone was missing, the center stone, which was about, a third of a carat. I called some friends of mine——

Mr. Hubert. How long ago was that?

Mrs. Grant. I think it’s a year and a half—maybe 2 years.

Mr. Hubert. All right, go on.

Mrs. Grant. I just don’t remember. Anyway, I called—the vice squad came in very often to the club and I was really very friendly with a fellow by the name of Mike, and I don’t remember who he had with him, and they took the ring to the laboratory—they proved that someone had—I can’t explain it—they said——

Mr. Hubert. They said that they had taken the stone out by force?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; something like that. Anyway, the thing is, any other thing I wouldn’t have cared about, but that stone, my mother gave me and she swore she didn’t do anything about it, but I’ll tell you, there was some money missing out of my purse and I never felt right about it, and her nervousness in getting out of the apartment and all.

Mr. Hubert. You made no charges?

Mrs. Grant. No; I just wished the whole thing hadn’t happened, but I told her I wanted the stone back. I didn’t care about the money—I just was sick.

Mr. Hubert. Had you during the war done any kind of trading in sugar stamps?

Mrs. Grant. No; no.

Mr. Hubert. That’s not true?

Mrs. Grant. No; I never had any extra stamps outside of what my family had.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever boast to anyone or say to anyone in any way that you had connections with the Capone gang?

Mrs. Grant. Aw—let me tell you, when I came to Dallas——

Mr. Hubert. Just answer the question.

Mrs. Grant. No, sir. And it just kills me—connections—I had no connections.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know of a Lois, or perhaps it’s Louis Green?

Mrs. Grant. Now, I didn’t know him. He was in this town. The conversation was great about him. He did not know me—he wouldn’t know me if he saw me and I understand he’s dead. There was absolutely—the man never even talked to me. I wouldn’t know him—short, tall, or anything.

Mr. Hubert. You never met him?

Mrs. Grant. No; not to my knowledge—no, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know the circumstances of his death?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t think I was here.

Mr. Hubert. Did he die—how long ago, do you know?

Mrs. Grant. I really don’t know, but I was hurt—you know what I mean—there were certain individuals I read about in the papers. I know he was considered a character.

Mr. Hubert. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he was with the rough element—he never worked.

Mr. Hubert. In Dallas, you mean?

Mrs. Grant. In Dallas—he was a Dallas man, as much as—-you know, when you are in the night club business, you see a lot of undesirable people, but you are not sure.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us how you got into the night club business yourself.

Mrs. Grant. Well, when I was on the west coast I ran a restaurant in back of a bar and it seemed to be quite a lucrative business. That was Frankie Nolan’s place on Sunset Boulevard. Now, whether that was the second place or the first place—I don’t know, but then I once went with a fellow, Harvey Brooker, and his mother had a restaurant and I learned to manage that.

Mr. Hubert. That was in San Francisco?

Mrs. Grant. No; it was in Los Angeles—both these places were in Los Angeles.

Mr. Hubert. I was thinking particularly about the Dallas area.

Mrs. Grant. Then, when I came here and I worked for Harvey Phillips, the Southwest Tool & Die Co., some real estate man who he was acquainted with, Fred Shinskey, said, “You know, I know a good spot where the landlord wants to build a restaurant and night club,” and Jack got money from the Earl Products—and sent me $1,100 and I think that was the amount, to put the money down on the lease—the first and the last months of a 10-year lease. Mr. Waddlington, who owned the ground, had built the inside of the building—no; the outside of the building, and part of the inside to my specifications and the idea was that Jack—Jack was in the service but he was very unhappy in being in business with my two brothers, and they sent me some money. I think they sent me—one brother sent me $1,500 and my older brother—with the things he bought and paid for ran about $2,500—like dishes and intercom system and a grand piano—ran to about $2,500—and this is Hyman——

Mr. Hubert. And so——

Mrs. Grant. Wait a minute, and I went into business then.

Mr. Hubert. That became known as what?

Mrs. Grant. That became known as the Singapore Supper Club for a little over a year, and it was a very sad—it was too nice a club for that part of town there.

Mr. Hubert. Now, did Jack join you in that venture?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes; he was a partner in it.

Mr. Hubert. And he actually helped operate it?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; listen, I want to tell you, he did all the operating, and the truth of the matter is, had he not known how bad that neighborhood was—you see, I didn’t know, because I didn’t mingle with anybody and I didn’t understand about certain—what they call the tenderloin district, I never heard the word. He was mad that I got involved in that with so much money and then all this work—this struggle for 2 years—It took 2 and 2½ years or 3 years until they built the building.

Mr. Hubert. He came in what year—Jack did?

Mrs. Grant. He came right after he got out of service and it seems to me it was in 1948.

Mr. Hubert. And he stayed with you running this club for some time?

Mrs. Grant. I left shortly. I went on the road—I went on the west coast and I was selling fishing tackle for Harvey Phillips, and then I got another line—of radios.

Mr. Hubert. Well, is it fair to say then that when Jack came, you left—just about?

Mrs. Grant. Well, shortly after that.

Mr. Hubert. You sold out to him?

Mrs. Grant. No; I just gave him power of attorney. It’s my brother.

Mr. Hubert. And he invested $1,100?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, he invested a lot more—he got more money out of what he sold out of his business in Chicago and I don’t know how much his end of the Earl Products came to.

Mr. Hubert. He sold or closed the Singapore Supper Club?

Mrs. Grant. He changed the name to the Silver Spur because that name would fit better in that area.

Mr. Hubert. And did you have an interest in the Silver Spur?

Mrs. Grant. He sent me some money when I was broke or sick or I didn’t work or the weather was too hot.

Mr. Hubert. But you didn’t have any financial interest in the Singapore Club?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, I put in money because I made money in the brokerage business. Every time I made money, I would throw it back in—I put it back in.

Mr. Hubert. Well, what was the arrangement between you and Jack as to the ownership of the Silver Spur?

Mrs. Grant. We were partners.

Mr. Hubert. Half and half?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; but there was never any half and half. I can’t explain it. He was there and things were so bad, we were lucky we were eating. That’s one of the reasons I left and went out to the west coast on the road with the fishing tackle.

Mr. Hubert. And you stayed away from Dallas as I understand it, until approximately 1959, wasn’t it?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, no; I was here lots of times.

Mr. Hubert. Well, I understand that, but I mean—you didn’t come back here to live on a permanent basis?

Mrs. Grant. I was here—I was here the next year—the year after that, and I stayed 2 years and he got involved with another club that a fellow was wanting to sell it and it was called Hernando’s Hideaway and I think that was in 1952 or 1953, and by then—Jack always had his hands in two or three places—whether they are making money or not, and I ran this other club, if I remember, and then I ran the Vegas Club for a while.

Mr. Hubert. But you came back to Dallas, so that it was on a permanent basis, in what year?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know how long I was here then.

Mr. Hubert. But I think you mentioned a little while ago that you haven’t been out of town—out of this town for 4 or 5 years?

Mrs. Grant. Now, I am here 4 years constantly.

Mr. Hubert. That’s what I am talking about.

Mrs. Grant. But this time I was gone about a year and a half or 2, but I have been back here, but I didn’t come to stay.

Mr. Hubert. That’s what I understand, so that during the period from 1948 to roughly 1958, a period of 10 years, you were in and out of Dallas, of course?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert. But, you didn’t have any connection with any of Jack’s operations here?

Mrs. Grant. Well, in the early fifties when I came, I worked at the Vegas Club and as I said, I ran this Hernando’s Hideaway.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know the circumstances of Jack’s acquisition of the Vegas Club?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Could you tell us briefly how that came about?

Mrs. Grant. I know this, that he sold the other club—I may be wrong—for $4,500. I don’t know the exact amount—but I have an idea it was around $4,500 and he bought this club with a couple other fellows.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know them?

Mrs. Grant. I never met them—I know I heard the name Joe Bonds—I never saw him in my life. Maybe if I saw him I didn’t know it was him. When I came he was in jail.

Mr. Hubert. What about Martin Gimpel or Marty Gimpel?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, Marty, may he rest in peace, is a real nice guy.

Mr. Hubert. He’s dead now, isn’t he?

Mrs. Grant. Yes—he worked for the Post Office.

Mr. Hubert. He has been dead some time?

Mrs. Grant. Not over 2½ years.

Mr. Hubert. Was he in the Vegas Club?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me he may have been in with Jack and maybe even—you see, there was a time he may have even taken over—Jack let him take over the Silver Spur and Jack went into a business called—the club—does it say Bob Wills’ Ranch House there, something like that, anything about Bob Wills’ Ranch House?

Mr. Hubert. No, ma’am. Did he have some interest in that?

Mrs. Grant. Yes, and it’s here in town—it’s not that name any more. Jack, I think, leased or sold the Silver Spur to Marty and it was Marty that was running the club and Jack was running the Bob Wills’ Ranch House with somebody else—oh, yes, I know the guy—Hyman Fader, or something like that.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that for the last 2 or 3 years you have operated the Vegas Club for Jack?

Mrs. Grant. Yes, three and a half years.

Mr. Hubert. And you have been I take it, on a salaried basis?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. You have no ownership in the club, though, I take it?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Hubert. But did you have complete management and control?

Mrs. Grant. Well, let me put it this way—every week I would give him—like if I would have $800 and he said he needed $600 to pay bills or $400, he would take it. I make the payroll, I pay the bills and I didn’t go to the Federal to pay the taxes.

Mr. Hubert. Well, let me put it this way—you used your gross receipts, I suppose, to pay the running expenses?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right, and when he would take any money, he would take a lump; you know what I mean, 400 or 500, not if he made 2¼, did he take 2¼.

Mr. Hubert. Did you keep any books on the transactions?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes—what is his name—Abe Kleinman—of course, I don’t have them—I have some of the things, but Abe Kleinman was the accountant.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t own the land or the building of the Vegas Club?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, no—no.

Mr. Hubert. How much rent was paid; do you know?

Mrs. Grant. 500—since I’m there.

Mr. Hubert. $500 a month?

Mrs. Grant. $500 a month, but I think the first year that I was there, I think it was only 400 and something.

Mr. Hubert. All of the help, I take it, was paid in cash?

Mrs. Grant. Yes, but everyone who signed checks. You know—I would make out a check—I would take out their withholding and social security and put it right on it.

Mr. Hubert. You used a bank then for the operation of the Vegas Club?

Mrs. Grant. We had a bank account.

Mr. Hubert. But did you pay salaries and other expenses?

Mrs. Grant. I paid the band and I paid the bartender and I paid a floorman.

Mr. Hubert. What bank was that with?

Mrs. Grant. The Merchants’ State Bank.

Mr. Hubert. You had a checking account there?

Mrs. Grant. No, I didn’t. He did. But what I mean is, the checks didn’t go through the bank. We just let them sign a check like a receipt, but everything was on it—their names, their withholding and their social security.

Mr. Hubert. That’s what I was trying to get at—the Vegas Club or Jack Ruby or you, yourself, for the operation of the Vegas Club, did not have an active checking account in which money received was deposited and expenses paid out?

Mrs. Grant. He deposited the money every week, but it was like a round figure, like 200. I paid for the gas, I paid the telephone and lights and water bill on checks. I bought all the merchandise on cash and we have receipts. He paid the rent.

Mr. Hubert. And you paid the employees by cash, too?

Mrs. Grant. The bartender, and the band and the floorman. The waitresses worked on tips.

Mr. Hubert. All the employees were paid by cash?

Mrs. Grant. Yes, but they signed receipts for it.

Mr. Hubert. I understand. Who was Pauline Hall in that operation, what did she have to do?

Mrs. Grant. Well, sometimes she helped on the floor as a hostess and, of course, while I was ill, she took over the management for 2 weeks in 1963 in November. She has been a waitress in our club on and off. She has known us about 8 years. She has been a bartender when we needed one—she is a very nice person.

Mr. Hubert. I understand you had some trouble with your band at the Vegas in the fall—did they quit or something of that sort?

Mrs. Grant. Well, we had the same band leader—yes—almost 8 years.

Mr. Hubert. Who was he?

Mrs. Grant. Joe Johnson.

Mr Hubert. And what happened?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he was unhappy because someone offered him more money. We weren’t getting along, he and I, and there was always a dissension. First of all, he wouldn’t stay on the bandstand—I had to humor him.

Mr. Hubert. Well, did he quit or did you fire him?

Mrs. Grant. No, we didn’t fire him. He made arrangements with another night club.

Mr. Hubert. And that was when?

Mrs. Grant. He made arrangements unbeknownst to us, but he gave us notice and he left, I think, the first week of November, 1963.

Mr. Hubert. What about Raymond Jones, do you know him?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert. He worked at the Vegas, didn’t he?

Mrs Grant. He worked on and off—he was a porter.

Mr. Hubert. He was a handyman?

Mrs. Grant. I beg your pardon?

Mr. Hubert. He was a handyman or a porter?

Mrs. Grant. He was a porter.

Mr. Hubert. He quit the Vegas, didn’t he?

Mrs. Grant. No; he has always had another job and he worked for me and he came back—he wasn’t a very good porter. Truthfully, where he worked the last job for 19 years, he didn’t do actually any porter work—he was like the foreman over porters.

Mr. Hubert. Well, did he stop working for the Vegas at any particular date so that you didn’t see him thereafter?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he came back a couple of times—Jack knew him from the Dallas Athletic Club. That’s how I got him in the first place.

Mr. Hubert. Well, did he quit working for you back last fall sometime?

Mrs. Grant. Well, call it quits—he quit a few times, I called him and he came; he is not the most intellectual man; he can’t read or write; he can’t sign his own name.

Mr. Hubert. But, in any case, he stopped working for you?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I fired him a couple of times and he came back. I don’t know how you would—it isn’t any quitting—he never showed up. In fact, he worked for me right around New Year’s again.

Mr. Hubert. You had nothing to do, as I understand, with the operation of the Sovereign Club or the Carousel, but perhaps you can tell us something about how those two clubs came into existence and what you know about them?

Mrs. Grant. Well, first, I wasn’t in town to begin with, and when I did arrive here, that club was in existence.

Mr. Hubert. Which one was that?

Mrs. Grant. That was the Sovereign Club.

Mr. Hubert. That’s on Commerce Street, isn’t it?

Mrs. Grant. 1312½ Commerce.

Mr. Hubert. It’s an upstairs location?

Mrs. Grant. And I understand Jack has taken money from Earl and probably from my sister Mary and God knows who else in the family—there was none of his money in there—if he had a thousand dollars of his money, it was a lot of money.

Mr. Hubert. Was that a corporation, to your knowledge?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Who are the owners of the stock?

Mrs. Grant. Well, from what I knew—Ralph Paul put in some money and that was another thing. He is quite a well-to-do man and I think he wanted Jack to be a success, whether he loaned or gave him money—I don’t know, but I know he was connected with the club, and Leo Torti, I think Jack owed him a little. Jack promised or owed him some money, made him part of the corporation and the first that started out it was with Earl being in it, but the State doesn’t allow an outsider to be in a corporation of that type when you carry a liquor license and I think they rehashed it later on and it went over a few times—it started out with the people I didn’t know, but ones I got to know later on was Joe Slayton and another fellow who I still don’t know who he is. There was three partners—Jack represented Earl, Earl gave him the money. Jack encouraged Earl to give him the money to go into this thing and to this day, and this is truthfully, I think he owes Earl $8,500 on that deal alone, and I’m making it low. I don’t know all the money Earl had given him from time to time.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know of the existence of a corporation called Sovereign, Incorporated?

Mrs. Grant. No; it’s called S & R Corp. or R & S. Yes; I know it now and I knew it when I came to town. He told me about it.

Mr. Hubert. But did you ever hear of a corporation called Sovereign Club, Incorporated, or Inc.?

Mrs. Grant. It could be the same club if it is. Now, since then Ralph was so disgusted when Jack got in all this trouble, he gave me the stock—his stock.

Mr. Hubert. Did he own that stock that you’ve got—do you know?

Mrs. Grant. I guess so.

Mr. Hubert. He gave you the certificates, you mean?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; there’s no name on them—I have it at home—I think it says 500 shares.

Mr. Hubert. The name was just in blank?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So, he didn’t have to endorse it over to you?

Mrs. Grant. I told him we were going to sell it and he said, “You endorse it over to the other person.”

Mr. Hubert. But he did not endorse it over, he just gave you the certificates?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he had a letter with the attorney—they went up to an attorney called Graham Koch [spelling] K-o-c-h. Anyway, he would know more about it than I do.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether Ralph Paul was holding that stock as owner or as security for money owed?

Mrs. Grant. Who knows?

Mr. Hubert. But do you know that?

Mrs. Grant. I know Ralph must have given Jack a lot of money that he never got back; believe me, let me tell you.

Mr. Hubert. Had Jack talked to you at all about any nightclubs that he proposed to open?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When did he first talk to you about that?

Mrs. Grant. Listen, now, he didn’t say he was going to open it, he says, “This would be a good private club,” and I think he took me then on a street here to Maple or Cedar Springs, and I guess he was going to ask Ralph Paul for money, to be honest, they were very close.

Mr. Hubert. Were you to be a part of it?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he didn’t tell me.

Mr. Hubert. How far had those plans gone, do you know?

Mrs. Grant. I looked at the outside of the building with him late at night—3 o’clock in the morning. Now, wait a minute, he had seen it—he had been in it—whatever this building is, and to this day I’d like to find it because someone else told me that.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know when that was that he showed that building to you?

Mrs. Grant. It seemed to me that it was in the summer and once early in the fall, or it could have been in October.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say what he was going to do with the Vegas and the Carousel?

Mrs. Grant. He didn’t say anything about the Vegas or the Carousel, but I’ll tell you, the Carousel in my estimation wasn’t making any money and it made him sick, and one of the reasons was he said that all the other clubs that sell liquor over the bar—you see, this State has very peculiar liquor laws and he said with a downtown club he could get a lot of members to go into this private club, but he did look at this building a few times because he talked about it and he is the biggest planner you’ve ever seen about something that don’t develop in his mind.

Mr. Hubert. Now, does the name Gene Schriver [spelling] S-c-h-r-i-v-e-r, mean anything to you?

Mrs. Grant. Is that a girl or a fellow; do you know?

Mr. Hubert. I don’t know.

Mrs. Grant. Well, we knew a Jean that worked for him as a waitress.

Mr. Hubert. Is the last name Schriver?

Mrs. Grant. Not that I know of. I knew a lot of girls that worked for them but I didn’t know their last names.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of work did she do?

Mrs. Grant. She was a waitress up there—a couple of years ago.

Mr. Hubert. How long did she stay?

Mrs. Grant. Well, she was there two or three times. She got mad at Jack and went over and worked for the Colony Club, if it’s the same little girl.

Mr. Hubert. Was she working with Jack at the time of the death of the President?

Mrs. Grant. Gee, I don’t know; I don’t remember who was working there. I know one cute little girl and I couldn’t think of her name unless it came up.

Mr. Hubert. What about Frank Goldstein?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he used to work with him selling subscriptions in San Francisco and when Jack was having trouble with the union—he hasn’t spoken to that fellow in 26 years and I believe it, because I’ve been on the west coast off and on, and Frank often asks, “Why don’t you write to me or call?” Last fall, in fact, in November—as late as November, I think Jack made the first call to Frank Goldstein because things were getting very bad.

Mr. Hubert. In your opinion, that phone call made to Goldstein was the first connection between Jack and Goldstein——

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Wait a minute, let me finish my question—in some considerable number of years?

Mrs. Grant. I know that for a fact because I used to go to the west coast and see Frank every 5 years—5 or 7 years and we talked about him and I don’t remember Jack or him ever saying they talked or wrote and Frank, I don’t think, could write.

Mr. Hubert. But as far as you know, he had no connection with him; is that right?

Mrs. Grant. No; but I do know he is a gambler and it is very well emphasized in San Francisco that he is a gambler.

Mr. Hubert. What about Benny Barrish?

Mrs. Grant. Benny—I heard he is a liquor salesman. I knew him when we were on the west coast. He’s a Chicagoan. He came out there in 1935 and as far as I know he’s a liquor salesman.

Mr. Hubert. When was the last connection you had with him?

Mrs. Grant. I saw him about 8 or 9 or 10 years ago when I went to San Francisco.

Mr. Hubert. You haven’t seen him or corresponded with him in any way by telephone?

Mrs. Grant. No, no.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know if Jack ever knew him?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, sure. We knew him from Chicago as kids, but I’m sure Jack hasn’t—now, I won’t say positive I know Jack hasn’t for any reason, unless during this month—this particular month where he was having trouble early in the fall of 1963 with regard to amateur auditions at his club. He had contacted people all over the country trying to find out who knew the bigwigs in the union where the AGVA, you know, the big shots—who they were that run the union.

Mr. Hubert. Would Benny Barrish be the sort of person who might know something or be able to do something about that?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he gets around—he knew and knows people in the liquor business that have entertainments in San Francisco—it might be.

Mr. Hubert. As far as you know, Jack has made no connections out there in anyway for some time?

Mrs. Grant. In over 12 years—I would swear to this that he has had no connection out there since before the war and he has never been west of 100 miles of this area in that time. I have many, many times heard where people said he went to Las Vegas. He hasn’t been there only once with me and I think that was when we went to—from Los Angeles back and, of course, that must have been in 1937 or 1938, and he has not been back.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Jack Ruby, your brother, or communicate with him every day, would you say, for a period of 60 to 90 days prior to November 24?

Mrs. Grant. Every day? I don’t say I saw him every day, but I would say I heard him on the phone three to five times.

Mr. Hubert. Would you be willing to say then that to the best of your knowledge he was not out of the city of Dallas during that period, that is to say——

Mrs. Grant. Well, wait a minute, didn’t he go to New York in August?

Mr. Hubert. Well, I was going to except August at that point—that’s why I put it at 90 days.

Mrs. Grant. Didn’t he go to see a fellow, Joe Glazer, who was the head of a certain union?

Mr. Hubert. We have evidence that he did go to New York in August, but after that trip—let’s put it this way, from September 25 until November 25 just a period of 2 months, can you state to us now that to the best of your knowledge, Jack was not out of the Dallas area?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t remember him going out.

Mr. Hubert. Specifically, do you have any indication whatsoever of any kind that he might have gone to Las Vegas during this period?

Mrs. Grant. That—I swear.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you certainly would have known it if he had been gone, say 3 or 4 days, wouldn’t you?

Mrs. Grant. Well, for one more reason, he would advise me to keep it quiet and to collect the money to see that Andy does this or that.

Mr. Hubert. And there is nothing to indicate to you whatsoever that he was in Las Vegas during September or October or November of 1963?

Mrs. Grant. But I know he has made many calls to the same fellow, McWillie. I would say he made at least 10 calls in those 3 months.

Mr. Hubert. And what would be the reason for those calls?

Mrs. Grant. The same thing—Willie might know somebody in Las Vegas, since there is that type of entertainment, with these amateurs.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack tell you he was calling these various people because of this trouble with the union?

Mrs. Grant. It seemed to me—well, he was so bitter against Barney—I shouldn’t say this because—it’s just sickening—because they didn’t mean to hurt him—Barney and Abe Weinstein and he felt—the union sent him a telegram to quit these amateur auditions and they sent it to Abe and Barney, but they wouldn’t quit, but Jack figured they had an “in” with the big guys, you know, and Jack couldn’t get to this fellow, and he told me that he called McWillie. In fact, he may have called him even 3 days before that—he was just sick about this.

Mr. Hubert. Now, was McWillie, and I think you mentioned another person earlier, Lenny Patrick he called?

Mrs. Grant. Well, Lenny Patrick he called in Chicago—one time, and he was not there, and until he got his number—he called 15 different people from what I understand.

Mr. Hubert. What I was getting at is this—your explanation that if he called Goldstein and Barrish and McWillie and so forth, your explanation that those calls were made in connection with this difficulty about the amateur night thing—was that information obtained by you from Ruby, or are you just giving us your opinion of what those calls were about?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he has discussed this with me many times and I didn’t go to the downtown club too often, but when I did go there, it so happened either September or October on a particular Sunday night, whichever Sunday night it was—there are five Sundays and whichever Sunday it would be, and the Vegas Club would be closed on Sunday, he told me he had just gotten through talking to somebody and I’ll be honest about it, it just went in one ear and out the other, because I figured that——

Mr. Hubert. Well, you see what I am trying to get at and that is whether or not your statements that those calls were made in connection with this AGVA business derives from him directly or whether it is merely your opinion that those calls were about that?

Mrs. Grant. It is not only my opinion, we talked about it. We had discussed it and he had told me.

Mr. Hubert. So that that does come—that information, then does come directly from Jack?

Mrs. Grant. Well, and one other thing, when I called home, I spoke to my older brother and he knows Jack Yanover. My brother Jack did not know Jack Yanover like my older brother.

Mr. Hubert. That’s who?

Mrs. Grant. Hyman; he’s a friend of his and my older brother in this conversation said to me, “I told him to call Jack Yanover. Maybe he knows somebody because Yanover has some kind of saloon in Chicago,” that’s in my estimation because of the way it looks, and this all went on and Jack used to rehash it with me until it—well, I know that’s what that call was for.

Mr. Hubert. And that was all during the period then of September and October?

Mrs. Grant. In the summer—last summer and he also told me, you know, he told me during one of those months he said, “I tried to call Lenny Patrick,” and he said, “I got his number,” he got it from somebody and I don’t know who, what and I didn’t give a darn.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack tell you all of this prior to November 24?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, sure. To tell you the truth, the way I see Jack through this little glass, he has very little to say.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Robert McKeown [spelling] M-c-K-e-o-w-n, or have you ever heard of him?

Mrs. Grant. Is it a Dallas man?

Mr. Hubert. I believe not.

Mrs. Grant. Would it be my friend or Jack’s friend?

Mr. Hubert. Well, it would probably be Jack’s friend. Did Jack ever tell you of contacting him by telephone and going to see him in the Galveston area concerning the selling of jeeps to Castro?

Mrs. Grant. Now, I know Jack was in Cuba 6 or 7 years ago or one of those years.

Mr. Hubert. Oh, yes; you told us about that—that was when he went to join McWillie for a little while?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; and I also know that I did hear the story about jeeps.

Mr. Hubert. When did you hear that?

Mrs. Grant. Well, let me say this—I don’t know whether I heard it last year or the year before, but I do remember something in a conversation—some guy told him he knew where there were 400 or 800 jeeps or 80 jeeps and whether Jack went down—Jack went to Houston first of all—he did go to Houston last year to see a man from a night club. They were going to exchange acts or work in a deal, but I don’t remember who the man was, and this all came about, but Jack, I’ll tell you, he isn’t that kind of a promoter.

Mr. Hubert. What did Jack tell you about the jeeps?

Mrs. Grant. This was the deal with McWillie at the time and we were on friendly terms, as much as I remember about it, and I think he shoved it off.

Mr. Hubert. Was it the jeep proposition that had something to do with Jack’s visit to McWillie in Havana in 1959?

Mrs. Grant. Jack was very depressed, he was having a lot of trouble, that McWillie sent him as much as I know, a ticket to come to Havana to have a week or 10 days vacation. That’s as much as I know of the whole darn thing and deal outside of the talking about jeeps at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Did that visit have anything to do with the jeeps in addition to the rest and vacation that you know of? Now, don’t guess about it.

Mrs. Grant. Yes; but I heard “Jeeps” but I didn’t pay too much attention to it.

Mr. Hubert. Well, then, the real fact is you don’t know much about it?

Mrs. Grant. I really don’t.

Mr. Hubert. You heard something about jeeps about that time, but you are not in a position really to say that you know yea or nay—yes or no—whether Jack’s visit to Havana with McWillie had to do with jeeps or not; isn’t that right?

Mrs. Grant. Do you know that I didn’t know at the time he was in Havana. I knew this a few years later.

Mr. Hubert. What I mean is—the real fact is you don’t have any knowledge of it—of the real facts?

Mrs. Grant. I have no specific knowledge of it, but I do know that my sister told me he was down in Havana. He called Chicago from there and he said he’s in Havana and I think he spoke to Marion Carroll—that sister.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know a man by the name of Lawrence Meyers?

Mrs. Grant. I knew a Meyers but I can’t think of his first name.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him or meet him during the first 3 weeks of November 1963?

Mrs. Grant. Not that I know—I can’t think of it—no; this fellow I knew years ago, but I can’t think of his first name—gee, that isn’t his first name. He used to live here in town on Lemmon Avenue.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know a man by the name of Alex Gruber?

Mrs. Grant. You mean Al Gruber on the West Coast?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you known him?

Mrs. Grant. I heard his name around the house 30 years—Jack knew him when they were young.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know that Jack had called him on the night of the President’s death?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; I do.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us how you knew it?

Mrs. Grant. Either late that evening or the next day he talked to Al and there was something in the conversation—Al was here early in the fall and in fact coming through—I was in the hospital and he promised Al a dog and it seems to me I called him—I must have called him later on; anyway, when I did call him a week or so later or whenever I did, I don’t know, but it was after this incident, Al said, “You know, Jack was crying when he called me on the day of the assassination?”

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack himself tell you he had called?

Mrs. Grant. No; Al told me. I had called Al myself. I had called Al within 10 days of the President’s assassination, something regarding to the dog.

Mr. Hubert. Yes, ma’am; I understand that—you mean before the President’s assassination?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Hubert. After?

Mrs. Grant. But Jack has talked to him before too—some weeks.

Mr. Hubert. But did Jack tell you that or did Gruber tell you that?

Mrs. Grant. No; Al told me this.

Mr. Hubert. You did not know that Jack had called Gruber on the night of the President’s assassination until Gruber himself told you?

Mrs. Grant. No; it seems to me that Jack even may have mentioned it, but still I made a call myself to Al in regards to the dog. Jack said he promised him a certain dog.

Mr. Hubert. And you say Gruber had been through Dallas?

Mrs. Grant. While I was in the hospital in November—in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see him then?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; I did. He visited me at the Gaston Hospital.

Mr. Hubert. You were hospitalized for how long?

Mrs. Grant. For about a week.

Mr. Hubert. What was the nature of your illness; do you recall?

Mrs. Grant. Tumor and hysterectomy.

Mr. Hubert. And you were in there about a week?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What was your relationship with Jack from the standpoint of, say, personal relationship as brother and sister and, of course, as comanager—were you on a friendly basis?

Mrs. Grant. Most of the time.

Mr. Hubert. Any difficulties between you sometimes?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; lots of times. We got along a lot of times like a disagreeable man and wife. If my band leader complained it was no good. If I complained it was no good.

Mr. Hubert. What was Jack’s attitude generally toward politics; do you know?

Mrs. Grant. He didn’t have any.

Mr. Hubert. To your knowledge did he belong to any kind of organizations whatsoever?

Mrs. Grant. Not one that I could put my—outside of the YW—YMCA or something to that effect or the union connected with the musicians’ union or AGVA, and maybe three or four private clubs around—entertainment clubs.

Mr. Hubert. Did he have any sort of attitudes toward conservatism or liberalism or any kind of “ism”?

Mrs. Grant. All I know—he’s a good American and he is far better than a lot of people are.

Mr. Hubert. But, did you ever notice any interest that he had in pro-Cuban affairs or anti-Cuban affairs or pro-Castro or anti-Castro or anything of that sort?

Mrs. Grant. This is the exact words when they spit on Stevenson last fall—Jack and I were going to dinner or coming to dinner and someway or somehow we were sitting in the car—his car—and he looked at me and he says, “Isn’t that awful?” He says, “They ought to knock their heads together.” Now, we were told two young fellows out of college or in college did that and he says, “To think—a man devotes his time” and he went on for a couple of minutes, and that was it, and I remember the incident of—I’ll tell you—he respects high people and he admires highly educated, cultured people—good family men.

Mr. Hubert. Well the answer to my question, I gather, from what you have said, then, is that Jack did not have any ideas that were pro-Cuba or anti-Cuba or pro-Castro or anti-Castro?

Mrs. Grant. He was against communism from the beginning of when it even entered his mind. I don’t know what year—maybe 35 years ago.

Mr. Hubert. How did he express himself on that?

Mrs. Grant. He didn’t have to—from the things he done—was too American—too much American.

Mr. Hubert. But my point is—I gather from that that he never discussed with you his feelings about communism or anything—it’s just that you observed that?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I’m not an intellectual on those subjects, to be honest about it.

Mr. Hubert. Was he the type of man that would be interested in these subjects himself?

Mrs. Grant. No; not to express it openly or fight with it—in this manner, if you said anything against anybody or anything big of our country that is Americanism—you might as well—he would knock the hell out of you.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, what you are saying to me is that if he has any kind of “ism” at all, it would be Americanism?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right—he has that—he does have that—that’s his greatest.

Mr. Hubert. Jack never married, did he?

Mrs. Grant. No; he was engaged to a young lady here.

Mr. Hubert. What generally was his attitude toward women; do you know?

Mrs. Grant. Well, in his late life I think he was sort of a playboy myself, but in his early life he wanted to get married. There were several individuals he had a great love for and the trouble is, he picked on women who were of means and he couldn’t give them what they wanted. He could tell from the way they were reared or their attitude, and how they expressed themselves when they get married—what they wanted, and I think it sort of cooled him toward making it. He liked women. He was a real man.

Mr. Hubert. I understood he took good care of himself physically?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. In the sense that he took physical exercise regularly?

Mrs. Grant. And the truth is, he has a great sympathy for women who are left with hardships and maybe it started with me or my mother—if they have to work and do a lot of things—it was in the back of his mind.

Mr. Hubert. Jack didn’t drink very much, did he?

Mrs. Grant. He didn’t drink a fifth of liquor a year. When we went out, we ordered two drinks, I would drink mine and have to drink two-thirds of his. Then, we were ashamed to sit there and he would order it again—not that I’m such a big drinker, but that’s what he did.

Mr. Hubert. What about smoking—he didn’t smoke either, did he?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t remember but once he had a cigar in his mouth, a couple of years ago at a party and maybe he had three or four cigarettes in his life, that I know of.

Mr. Hubert. Did you and he have any difficulties about the girl that he was going out with one time and I think Rabbi Silverman had to kind of intervene?

Mrs. Grant. That he was going with? That wasn’t it—it wasn’t about a girl.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you did have a disagreement?

Mrs. Grant. A very big disagreement—early this summer of 1963—it was in the early part of the summer. It was over money. He had $800 or $900 and he wanted to pay bills and somebody encountered him who needed their car fixed or something and I think he paid for the car and he didn’t pay the electric bills, and when he went to jail in November—3 months of the Carousel’s bill on the electric company wasn’t paid and it ran almost $800 or $900 for 3 months.

Mr. Hubert. What was the particular argument about then—that he had loaned some money to someone?

Mrs. Grant. No; it was not the first occasion only—this one—that’s the time that I blew my top and I had been sick—I have been in very bad physical condition and he wanted me to get out of the club, and Leo Torti who worked for us on weekends told him that I was having a difficult time and I should be in the hospital and he said, “I gave you money to go to the hospital,” and he gave me a push and I had just got some new high heeled shoes and I went back about 8 feet and I hurt my arm and my shoulder and he wanted me out of the Vegas Club.

Mr. Hubert. Whose car did he have repaired with the money you thought he should have used for the lights?

Mrs. Grant. Some family man—he does that—I haven’t the least idea and I don’t think he did either.

Mr. Hubert. How did you find out it was used to repair someone’s car?

Mrs. Grant. Some man come in my club weeks later and says, “Your brother was in,” and I didn’t even know this man’s business, and he said he works there as a car mechanic and he says, “He got someone’s car out of hock,” so I figured maybe it was his car—I didn’t think of it.

Mr. Hubert. Who was that man, do you know?

Mrs. Grant. Some customer at the Vegas Club—if I saw him, I would know him.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t remember his name?

Mrs. Grant. No; but I knew his appearances. He was one like the regulars who come about every month one time.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what kind of car he drove?

Mrs. Grant. No; I was in the club—I wouldn’t know what the patrons were driving, but he did repair someone’s car and it was a family man that was supposed to go on the road or some darn thing and if I’m not mistaken, as far as I know, my brother never got the money back. It wasn’t $800 worth of repairs, but these are the things that he did.

Mr. Hubert. What was the twistboard deal, can you tell us about that?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; he met a man—I think this man lives in Fort Worth and I think his name is out there somewhere and it says a plastic company on that thing—I’m almost sure it is the same man, and this man was manufacturing them and Jack had a deal with him to cover Texas, and if it went good, Jack would get the whole United States. In fact, I think somewhere in my apartment there might be a twistboard. I don’t know if I ever saw the man or not, but I believe he is in either Arlington or Fort Worth, lived there, and there is a twistboard that Jack—he sold quite a number—he sent some out to different people.

Mr. Hubert. Was Earl interested in that?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know. Earl’s partner, I think, is a friend that he knows—we call him George—in a laundry in Detroit. Whether he was or has been—I don’t think Earl wanted—in Earl’s business with this man, I think the contract reads he cannot go into another business. I may be wrong, but I’m almost sure that’s what I remember Earl saying at one time.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether Earl had any interest in the twistboard operations at all?

Mrs. Grant. I doubt it, unless he advanced Jack some money, but I don’t think there was that much money put into it. The man let Jack have, say, a hundred twistboards and he paid for them and I don’t know too much about it, but I did have them in the club and we gave them away as prizes and I know Jack contacted weight salons where women go to reduce about them.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember having any contact whatsoever with Ralph Paul?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert. During the period from November 22 through November 24, up until the time Oswald was shot?

Mrs. Grant. Me?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mrs. Grant. I don’t think I even talked to him during those days.

Mr. Hubert. That’s what I mean.

Mrs. Grant. You know, I assume him and Jack were very good friends.

Mr. Hubert. I’m not suggesting to the contrary.

Mrs. Grant. He never did call me and I never called him—I don’t remember calling him. I have called him many times since then.

Mr. Hubert. Yes; I know, but I’m talking about during this particular period of 3 days.

Mrs. Grant. I don’t think he has ever called me—I have called him.

Mr. Hubert. No; I mean—let’s restrict ourselves for the moment to the three days of November 22, 23, and 24.

Mrs. Grant. He may have called me on the 24th of November.

Mr. Hubert. After Oswald was shot?

Mrs. Grant. Well, there was at least 20 calls when I did not pick up the phone—people in my home did.

Mr. Hubert. No, ma’am; that’s not what I’m talking about but let me get at it this way—was there any contact between you and Ralph Paul from the time the President was shot until the time Oswald was shot?

Mrs. Grant. No; definitely not. Can I go back with something?

Mr. Hubert. Yes, ma’am.

Mrs. Grant. Let me explain about this Raymond Jones. He worked for 19 years at the Dallas Athletic Club and when Jack got in trouble, the very next week he had made a remark to his boss, whoever he is, “I’m going to see my friend,” they said, “Where are you going?” And he said, “I’m going to see my friend,” and they said, “Who is your friend?” And he said, “Jack Ruby.” They told him that if he went to see Jack that he didn’t have a job. He says, “Well,”—he came back and he went to see Jack and he couldn’t get in and he came to see me at the Club and he says he just quit. I said, “After 19 years?”

Mr. Hubert. The Vegas was closed too, was it not?

Mrs. Grant. It was closed on and off a few times after that.

Mr. Hubert. No; I mean, the Vegas was closed on November 22, November 23, and November 24?

Mrs. Grant. Well, 2 days after that—it was closed for 5 days.

Mr. Hubert. And then ultimately it was sold?

Mrs. Grant. Then, I opened it again and I closed it and I opened it for New Year’s and I closed it permanently January 4.

Mr. Hubert. Until when?

Mrs. Grant. Until someone else bought it—it wasn’t in operation until this woman got her license, which was about the 1st of March.

Mr. Hubert. And of course the Carousel closed too because of the license lapsing—the liquor license?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; they closed February the 12th, from what I understand— their liquor license was revoked.

Mr. Hubert. Well, let’s take a break for a few minutes.

Mrs. Grant. You mentioned a man’s name McKeown or something like that; may I ask you what he does?

Mr. Burleson. Let’s take a break now, Eva.

(The deposition proceedings were recessed as heretofore stated and continued as hereinafter shown.)

Mr. Hubert. Let the record show that the deposition is continuing after the recess at 9:10 p.m. and that Mr. Burleson will ask some questions with respect to the block of questions and the areas covered by those questions before I go on.

Mr. Burleson. Mrs. Grant, you were saying out at the Vegas Club that the employees were paid in cash, and you mentioned something about giving them some type of check with their name on it. Would the transaction be such that you would give them a check and then cash the check for them in effect?

Mrs. Grant. That’s exactly it, but the check never went through the bank procedure. It was like a voucher that they had received that money on.

Mr. Burleson. Was it on a regular bank draft that it was made out on?

Mrs. Grant. Most of the time.

Mr. Burleson. And the net effect would be that you would give them a check and then cash it for them and take the check back and give them cash?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I put the check in an envelope and I would have—like your salary is $65, withholding and social security, and write on the back of the envelope that, and a lot of them kept their envelopes and a lot of them threw it out and they had signed the check and returned it and the balance of what money they should receive was in there.

Mr. Burleson. Now, you were in the hospital the first part of November 1963?

Mrs. Grant. I was sick for a solid week.

Mr. Burleson. Now, you had been having some trouble for quite some time?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. And as a matter of fact, Jack had been trying to get you to go into the hospital because the doctors had advised him and you that you needed this operation immediately? And you had been prepared on at least one, or maybe more than one occasion, to go to the hospital and everything had been arranged for the operation and you backed out at the last moment?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. And Jack knew that you were having this trouble and knew that the doctors recommended that, and you talked with your doctors about this?

Mrs. Grant. All through the whole week.

Mr. Burleson. And finally he was able to get you in the hospital there the first part of November 1963; is that correct?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And you then had what—a partial or complete hysterectomy, or do you know?

Mrs. Grant. I know they took out a tremendous tumor and a lot of things—I didn’t ask because I don’t know what parts it was.

Mr. Burleson. Who was the doctor?

Mrs. Grant. Bill Aranov.

Mr. Burleson. Then you got out of the hospital 7 days after the 6th, which would have been about the 13th?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. And that was in the middle of a week—about a Wednesday, wasn’t it?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; Wednesday—that’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, were you given some medication after you left the hospital?

Mrs. Grant. Well, not for a few days, I would say, but about the third or fourth day I got pretty bad.

Mr. Burleson. You started what—hurting and being in pain?

Mrs. Grant. Tremendous pain.

Mr. Burleson. And did this doctor that had operated on you prescribe some pills?

Mrs. Grant. His coworker or assistant—I think his name is Dr. Bookatz.

Mr. Burleson. But, at any rate, a doctor did prescribe some pills. What type of pills were they, do you know?

Mrs. Grant. I believe that they have codeine in it.

Mr. Burleson. What would be the effect on you that these pills would have?

Mrs. Grant. Well, they put me into a trance and made my body stiff and I didn’t have any more pain but I wasn’t as alert as I usually was.

Mr. Burleson. Did it affect your thinking?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Did Jack visit you in the hospital?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes; two or three times a day—mostly two times anyway.

Mr. Burleson. And called on the phone sometimes?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes; and sent me three bouquets of flowers and everything.

Mr. Burleson. And how long did you take this medicine after you started taking it—2 or 3 days after you got out of the hospital?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I really didn’t start to take it until the weekend after I was home.

Mr. Burleson. That would have been the weekend about the 16th?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. And how long did you take it?

Mrs. Grant. Well, there was 1 or 2 days I cut down and then I—about the 21st, which was a Thursday, I had an unusual severe pain and I started all over again.

Mr. Burleson. Taking heavy doses of it?

Mrs. Grant. Well, they are tablets and I called his nurse and she suggested to take them but not as often as I did when I complained it threw me into a trance but it still did, because I am not a pill taker and I guess pills work a little better on me.

Mr. Burleson. Were you taking pills on the day of the 22d of November?

Mrs. Grant. I already had two pills by the time the President was assassinated—these pills are prescribed one every 4 hours.

Mr. Burleson. Do you subscribe to the Dallas Morning News or did you back on November 22?

Mrs. Grant. No, no; but my manager was very sympathetic.

Mr. Burleson. Your manager?

Mrs. Grant. My manager brought it up every day she came to the apartment.

Mr. Burleson. That’s your manager at the apartment house?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And she brought it up—the paper?

Mrs. Grant. Every day.

Mr. Burleson. About what time of the morning on November 22 did she bring it up?

Mrs. Grant. It may have been around 11 o’clock.

Mr. Burleson. Had you heard from Jack before that concerning the ad?

Mrs. Grant. No; shortly—it seemed within the next 20 minutes I would think that he may have called.

Mr. Burleson. Had you seen the ads by Bernard Weissman by the time Jack called?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I had seen it, but I’ll be honest—I didn’t——

Mr. Burleson. Did you see it after you got the paper on the morning of the 22d before Jack called on the 22d?

Mrs. Grant. Yes, I did.

Mr. Burleson. And Jack was talking about it at that time?

Mrs. Grant. He was.

Mr. Burleson. And would you relate at this time some of the things you recall he said at that time about the Bernard Weissman ad.

Mrs. Grant. Well, the first thing he asked was if Pauline is going to take over—she was the manager, and do this and do that and get the napkins and all of this stuff connected with the club and then he said, “Did you see the ad?”

Mr. Burleson. This was before the President was shot?

Mrs. Grant. Yes. It so happened that that whole page was like on the back of a section—it seemed to me anyway that it was that way and it was open right on my bed—that section, anyway, was opened at that time for some reason or other.

Mr. Burleson. What did Jack say when he called you about the ad?

Mrs. Grant. At that time he said, “Did you see the ad?” And I said, “What ad?” He said, “About the President?” And I said, “Yes.” It said, “Welcome, Mr. Kennedy,” and he didn’t say too much then. He said some words in regard—like what do you think of it, so I said, “Oh”——He said, “Did you read it?” And I says, “Yes, yes.” You know, I wanted to get away.

Mr. Burleson. Had you really read it?

Mrs. Grant. Even if I did, I’ll be honest about it, it didn’t appear to me to be bad or good because I didn’t read all the way down and think about it and I didn’t study it like maybe I did later.

Mr. Burleson. Anyway, go back to what he said then.

Mrs. Grant. Well, he said, “Read it.” He says, “I’ll call you later.” And he was in the Dallas Morning News, I think, at that time.

Mr. Burleson. He said something to lead you to believe that?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; well, he said—it seems to me, “I’m in the News, and I’m going to Toni Zoppi’s office,” which was somewhere in the building, and “I’ve got to pick up a pamphlet.”

Mr. Burleson. Toni Zoppi being the entertainment editor or amusement editor of the Dallas Morning News?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right; and Jack had given him an ad a week before on a certain entertainer and that’s the fellow that made the remark, but that was Del Mar—Bill DelMar or DeMar or something like that, and Jack wanted it because, I guess, the entertainer wanted all this stuff back—that’s what we call writeups.

Mr. Burleson. When was the next time, then, that you heard from Jack; was that after the assassination?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And at that time what was Jack’s state as you recall it?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I was hysterical myself. He must have been crying, from his voice.

Mr. Burleson. At the time that he called, did you know that President Kennedy had been assassinated?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes; because Pauline had called me and on my clock it was about 25 to 1.

Mr. Burleson. What was Jack doing—saying—or was he crying?

Mrs. Grant. Well, when Jack called it was after 1 again.

Mr. Burleson. How was he—was he upset or normal?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, he was upset.

Mr. Burleson. What did he say?

Mrs. Grant. He says, “I’m in the Dallas Morning News,” and I could hear—it wasn’t distinct, but he says, “The people are all around here, the phones are ringing like hell and everyone is canceling their subscriptions and their ads—big ads from all over the State,” and he said, “Did you read it?” And so I read it again.

Mr. Burleson. While he was waiting?

Mrs. Grant. No; but I mean since then—I looked at it—I’ll be honest about it, I didn’t comprehend it.

Mr. Burleson. Okay.

Mrs. Grant. You see, I didn’t comprehend it.

Mr. Burleson. Tell us what else he said.

Mrs. Grant. Well, Jack said something about John Newman, the fellow that takes the ads there and he says, “You know, Jack, I have to take orders from my superiors,” and Jack, whether he told me that night or later on in the afternoon— he said, “What are you—so money hungry? That you have to take $1,500 for an ad?” Jack knew a full page cost approximately that—I mean, he is well aware of that.

Mr. Burleson. Let me bring you forward a little bit on these occasions that you told the FBI about in these statements where Jack spent this time with you at your house—would you watch television during this period of time or some of the time?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he didn’t. I had watched it a great deal that afternoon on a Friday, and he came over—it seems to me when he left the News he came over and came back later on with a lot of groceries and by that time either I saw Curry or somebody else on the television and he was saying, “We got the right man.”

Mr. Burleson. Did Jack see that?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know—I really don’t know. I tell you—usually under those pills, I thought I heard it plenty that day, and we got sick when we were talking about that.

Mr. Burleson. Did you and Jack talk about Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Grant. He had made very few remarks— he says, “He’s a creep.” You see, “a creep” is a real low life to Jack and “what a creep he is,” he says, and he was sick—he went in the bathroom.

Mr. Burleson. Did he actually vomit?

Mrs. Grant. He did not—he was sick to his stomach and he cried, he looked terrible—he just wasn’t himself, and truthfully, so help me, I remember even my mother’s funeral—it just killed him. He said this, “Someone tore my heart out,” and he says, “I didn’t even feel so bad when pops died because pappa was an old man. He was close to 90.”

Mr. Burleson. What did Jack have to say about President Kennedy?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, all I know is that it just killed him. I’ll tell you the truth—he sat there like it wasn’t worth life—like he thought they were out to get the world, the whole world, and this was part of it.

Mr. Burleson. All right. He was very respectful of President Kennedy as a man and as a President?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, he admired him—he thought this man was a great man of courage. If I said anything like I said there—something about his brother and integration, he said, “This man is greater, than Lincoln”—the same night.

Mr. Burleson. Did Jack ever have an occasion to say anything to you about a letter that was in the newspaper that was written by some man, purportedly to President Kennedy’s daughter, Caroline?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know about that, but the week—the same week of the assassination—I think it was Monday or Tuesday—it was that week, there was a picture of the President sitting behind the desk just like you are and John-John was sitting at the front and you could see him playing around, I think it was his father’s feet, and he called it his house—I think, let me put it this way: My brother says, “This kid don’t know his father is the President and the father don’t act like a President.” He meant that he was just like a good guy—like acting ordinarily, like he wasn’t of wealth or power—he was just like the average young man and Jack looked at him as even being much younger than he was.

Mr. Burleson. But you don’t know anything about such a letter being in the paper that Jack saw?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know—if he did, I don’t know it. I’ll tell you, I don’t know about that picture—it was the first week that I was home.

Mr. Burleson. On Saturday, the times that Jack was in your house, do you recall if he watched any television?

Mrs. Grant. No—very little. Saturday he came in with three pictures, and at the left hand corner, they were postal card pictures and he told me what he did. He went home and he couldn’t sleep—he got Larry out of bed and George Senator, and I thought he was nuts, I’ll be honest with you about it, so help me.

Mr. Hubert. Who?

Mrs. Grant. I thought my brother Jack was plain nuts.

Mr. Burleson. Is that when he went out in the middle of the morning and took the pictures?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right; and he didn’t know exactly where he saw it—that was the worst part of it and Larry told me that later on when they found him, he came back to it and they drove around and waited for daylight and he showed Larry how to take the pictures.

Mr. Burleson. You are talking about the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right—all of this got in Jack’s mind that some Communist—no, no—he didn’t use the word “Communist”. I think he said “Some outfit or some lousy guy,” or something was putting up signs like that.

Mr. Burleson. Did Jack tell you what he was going to do with this picture?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. What?

Mrs. Grant. First, he showed it to me—three little pictures.

Mr. Burleson. You actually saw the pictures?

Mrs. Grant. Yes—I saw them—they are postal cards—laying out on my white table. They were this big (indicating).

Mr. Burleson. These are pictures of “Impeach Earl Warren” signs?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; and they looked like the American flag.

Mr. Burleson. And it was on this Polaroid film?

Mrs. Grant. The camera is still at my house, so that’s the same camera, I’m sure.

Mr. Burleson. All right.

Mrs. Grant. It was like a postal card picture. It seems to me in the left hand corner was that, and at the bottom it said, “Belmont—Impeach Earl Warren,” and a box number and it said, “Belmont, Massachusetts.”

Mr. Burleson. What did Jack tell you as he showed you those pictures?

Mrs. Grant. He called Stanley because he had a lot of faith in him.

Mr. Burleson. Stanley who?

Mrs. Grant. Stanley Kaufman; an attorney. This is another wonderful American, and he said, “Stanley,” and he told him about the pictures and then he talked to me, he says, “You know what, I went down to the post office and the newspaper box—the post office box——”

Mr. Burleson. The newspaper box of Bernard Weissman’s ad?

Mrs. Grant. Yes—“It’s so stuffed with mail,” he said to the clerk, and you can find out now which clerk this is, and on the 23d he was there at 6 or 7 o’clock in the morning and Larry and Senator should know the time—I really don’t know that—but it seems to me that’s what he said.

First of all, he figured that a gentile is using that name to blame all this on a Jew—about that ad, and then he analyzed the ad on Saturday and he saw the black border.

Mr. Burleson. Will you tell me what Jack said he was going to do with these pictures?

Mrs. Grant. He talked to Stanley and he was going to take them to the FBI—Monday, the first thing.

Mr. Burleson. Was he also going to take them to Mr. Gordon McLendon who was the operator of KLIF?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; he said he was going up there that night. Whether he did or was there or not, I don’t know.

Mr. Burleson. Did he mention at that time—did he mention Mr. McLendon’s name, that Mr. McLendon does these editorials on radio station KLIF?

Mrs. Grant. Yes—he was very close to Gordon.

Mr. Burleson. All right.

Mrs. Grant. In fact, I think he called Gordon from my house. He was there—and on Saturday he spent a long time with me and he called many people.

Mr. Burleson. And he was quite upset over these pictures and signs?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Now, let’s come forward to where we were talking about this Al Gruber.

Mrs. Grant. Yes—Al.

Mr. Burleson. Or it’s possibly Alex Gruber.

Mrs. Grant. Yes; it’s Al Gruber—his nickname is Musty.

Mr. Burleson. And there was something about a dog?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Now, is this the dog that Jack was having someone build a crate for?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right; or buy a crate or something.

Mr. Burleson. And that he could ship this dog to Al Gruber in a crate?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me when Al was here when I was in the hospital, Jack had promised him a certain dog, I don’t know which one it is, and not a dog, but a certain dog, because Jack had a lot of dogs. His dogs just had puppies, I think, in the last month and Al had talked to—Jack had talked to Andy Armstrong—Andrew—and said something about getting a crate and Al wanted this dog.

Mr. Burleson. Now bringing you forward a little bit to this episode that you and Jack had the trouble over that ended up in going to Rabbi Silverman and that you touched upon?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he went to Rabbi Silverman because we weren’t talking for about 2 weeks. This was previous to the operation.

Mr. Burleson. All right; and did Rabbi Silverman talk to you?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Had Jack complained to him that he couldn’t get along with you or something?

Mrs. Grant. Well. I don’t know exactly what Jack said—the rabbi, you see, didn’t tell me, but I told the rabbi about this money deal. Of course, I didn’t tell him that I didn’t go to the hospital on all these times that I had made arrangements with the doctors and backed out.

Mr. Burleson. Now, you were asked some questions concerning Jack’s political beliefs or political leanings or political philosophies or political—anything that had to do with politics, did you ever hear Jack saying anything about being a Democrat or a Republican or being a right wing or left wing—he didn’t get involved in politics?

Mrs. Grant. Now, this is it—my older brother knew a lot of Democrats and it seemed that we followed in their footsteps, because this is what I heard as a child—that the Democrats are for the poor people, so we as poor people went along with them, but we were never the kind that I was to go out and get votes or boast about a fellow—me and Jack—never.

Mr. Burleson. You don’t know if Jack worked in any type of political movement?

Mrs. Grant. Not to my knowledge. My older brother did—he was a Democrat and he worked for Governor Horner.

Mr. Hubert. Who is the older brother?

Mrs. Grant. Hyman.

Mr. Burleson. Now, I think you also told me that Earl Ruby’s wife had a great admiration for President Kennedy also?

Mrs. Grant. Truthfully, Earl couldn’t get out of her sight unless she OK’d it, but she was such a great admirer, and you know how much time he spent down here and money and Earl said she never said a word—she just loved him.

Mr. Burleson. You mean loved the President?

Mrs. Grant. The President—the late President. They’ve got pictures—little pictures before the assassination—they had all of those.

Mr. Burleson. That’s enough on that. Now, one last area—

Since, and limit this to strictly since the conviction, you have visited Jack nearly daily in the jail?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I would say at least six times out of the week.

Mr. Burleson. What is, in your opinion, Jack’s present condition?

Mrs. Grant. I believe he is mentally deranged, inasmuch as I’m not a doctor, but from what he says to me.

Mr. Burleson. You have now, as of this moment, been informed by a newspaper and also by me about what Jack attempted to do today?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; I have.

Mr. Burleson. And you were informed and knew of what Jack had attempted to do about a month ago when he rammed his head up against the wall, were you not?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. What has Jack told you as to what you should do with and to yourself?

Mrs. Grant. He wants me to do away with myself.

Mr. Burleson. Does he give you a reason why?

Mrs. Grant. He thinks they are going to kill out all the Jews and he has made remarks that 25 million Jews have been slaughtered.

Mr. Burleson. Already?

Mrs. Grant. On the floor below.

Mr. Burleson. And they are being slaughtered where?

Mrs. Grant. In the jail and sometimes it’s planes going over and they are dropping bombs on the Jews.

Mr. Burleson. Has he told you about hearing or seeing Jews boiled in oil?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Burleson. And has he told you about seeing or hearing his brother, Earl, being dismembered?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; and his children.

Mr. Burleson. And Earl’s children, and by dismembered, he has seen them cut off?

Mrs. Grant. Arms and legs—they are cut off.

Mr. Burleson. Does he, nearly every time you talk to him, ask you to check on them, when is the last time?

Mrs. Grant. I have to sort of tell real lies, that I just got through talking with Sam and Earl and with Eileen and with Sam and everything is OK.

Mr. Burleson. Because he says that they have been doing this to them?

Mrs. Grant. He says many times he has seen Sam on the second floor and the rabbi was going—yesterday, they took the rabbi, sometimes they take Stanley.

Mr. Burleson. That’s Stanley Kaufman you are talking about?

Mrs. Grant. Stanley Kaufman.

Mr. Burleson. In other words. Jack just doesn’t make sense when you talk to him?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, no; then sometimes he will say one thing that will be all right and then he goes off into this stuff.

Mr. Burleson. Has Jack told you that he was actually tried for the killing of President Kennedy?

Mrs. Grant. No; but he thinks that they think that he killed the President.

Mr. Burleson. Did he tell you that what he went through with was not really a trial, but a farce?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And part of a play?

Mrs. Grant. In fact; his verdict is on the 14th and the next day he says to me in front of Eileen, “When will the trial be?”

Mr. Burleson. Did he say it wasn’t really Judge Brown that was up there but somebody else?

Mrs. Grant. That’s exactly what he said.

Mr. Burleson. Did he tell you anything about their introducing evidence in his absence?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And that evidence that they were supposed to have introduced is the fact that he killed President Kennedy?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he just thinks they are blaming him for it and they think he did it and they are going to take it out on all the Jews.

Mr. Burleson. Does he tell you many times that you will never see him again because he will be killed?

Mrs. Grant. Every time he kisses me goodby that day, he says, “You will never see me again. Do away with yourself.”

Mr. Burleson. To save yourself this punishment?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. What is your opinion as to his present condition mentally?

Mrs. Grant. I have seen him just 24 hours ago and he was in a very bad state of mind.

Mr. Burleson. He was in a very bad state of mind?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. How about physically?

Mrs. Grant. He has lost between 35 and 40 pounds to my knowledge. He looks like he has been in a concentration camp.

Mr. Burleson. What is his greatest desire as you know it right now?

Mrs. Grant. He wants to tell the Warren Commission the truth—he wants truth serum and a lie detector test.

Mr. Burleson. The truth being not going into the psychomotor variant epilepsy.

Mrs. Grant. He don’t know much about that—he doesn’t even know what they are talking about.

Mr. Burleson. He just wants to tell how he felt and how these things affected him?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. I believe that’s all on those.

Mrs. Grant. All right.

Mr. Hubert. When he tells you these various things, do you try to straighten him out and say to him that it is not so?

Mrs. Grant. When it first started—I didn’t realize this—I hadn’t said things—I said, “Don’t be crazy,” just words like that—“what are you talking crazy,” and then when we got to—this Dr. Beavers into the case and I talked to him and he read something of his report and, of course, my sister was here at that time. Every day he would say to her, “You’ll never see me again. Kiss me goodby through the glass.” You know, if it wasn’t so serious it would be funny in a way, because it don’t seem like him. It seems that if I agree with him it’s no good and I have tried—I realize Dr. Beavers said if you’d try agreeing with him then he says, “You don’t believe me, do you?” He says, “They are playing a game with you, don’t believe Phil, don’t believe him.” And I said, “What about the rabbi?” And he says, “The rabbi don’t listen to me.” And truthfully, every time the rabbi went up there he came down sick and disgusted with himself—he’s trying to knock some sense into Jack and it don’t work—it doesn’t register with the rabbi, you see.

Mr. Hubert. What I wanted to get at—you all are trying to discourage him from having these views?

Mrs. Grant. Well, after talking to the psychiatrist, I said I don’t know what to do. If I tell you, you will agree with him it is no good, and if I don’t—I stay there and listen through this glass.

Mr. Burleson. I might be able to help with that—help clarify that—when he says that they have just killed Earl or Sam or their children, you say, “No, that’s not true because I just talked to them?”

Mrs. Grant. I say, “I just talked to them,” and then we’ll get onto something and I will try to talk about a friend who wrote a letter or someone came to see him and he goes right back, he says, “There’s no more Earl. They have dismantled him.” That’s the words he uses.

Mr. Burleson. And do you come back and say, “Well, it’s not true because I just talked to him 30 minutes ago or 2 hours ago?”

Mrs. Grant. Or, he makes me promise, “Will you call them tonight to be sure it’s not so—to be sure it wasn’t him,” and I’ll be sure that it is somebody else on the phone. They can check with the calls last Saturday—he made seven calls to Chicago.

Mr. Hubert. Who did?

Mrs. Grant. Jack; he don’t know that he made them, he don’t know that he made that many. I got the letter that he made them from Eileen at home.

Mr. Hubert. He is allowed to make phone calls though?

Mrs. Grant. Well, sometimes—I think he annoys them a little bit—those who sympathize with him and they figure he’s pretty screwy, you know he is really gone—he makes these collect calls to Chicago and they let him and there are one or two guards that aren’t as nice—I think they are not as tolerant.

Mr. Burleson. Let’s go off the record just a second, so that I can give Mr. Hubert some information.

(Discussion between counsel and the witness off the record.)

Mr. Burleson. They have a pay phone out there in the jail, do they not?

Let’s go off the record just a second to give Mr. Hubert some information.

(Discussion between counsel off the record.)

Mr. Hubert. I have to explain what went on while we were off the record.

Let the record show that while we were off the record Mr. Burleson was explaining to me the circumstances used in the jail for allowing prisoners, especially those who are under a death sentence to use the pay phone in the jail, and that was the substance of the conversation off the record.

Now, do you have any more questions, Mr. Burleson? Are you through?

Mr. Burleson. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I wanted to get into the matter of the financing of the defense of your brother, Jack—I suppose we should start with the selection of the attorneys originally in this case. Now, we know that Mr. Tom Howard apparently took the first affirmative action on behalf of Jack Ruby in the afternoon of November 24.

Mrs. Grant. On the 24th.

Mr. Hubert. And I want to ask you if you know by whose authority he took this action?

Mrs. Grant. Ralph Paul, who knows nothing about lawyers—only knew Howard and they called them thinking they could get back on bond. Now, I didn’t know Oswald died until later in the afternoon. I was hysterical over this shooting and being sick and the President’s assassination—in fact, my television was on but it was turned down.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, it was Ralph Paul that called Mr. Howard for the initial step?

When it came to the charge of the matter which ultimately followed, did you have anything to do with the selection of the attorneys who would defend your brother Jack?

Mrs. Grant. Let me put it this way—there was Daugherty and Sullivan and Jim Martin, and one guy was threatened and one fellow’s wife didn’t want him in. Tom Howard pushed Jim Martin out of the case. I was panicky here. I had asked Tom to call Fred Brunner, Charles Tessmer—what is the name of this Erisman?

Mr. Burleson. Fred Erisman.

Mrs. Grant. Erisman or something like that and also Percy Foreman to get another lawyer—you know, a super lawyer that I felt—I didn’t know too much about Tom, but talking to Chicago and people telling me here and everything, anyway, Tom remained in the case and I understand he didn’t contact these people as quickly as he should and Earl was panicky up in Detroit.

Mr. Hubert. Didn’t Earl come down here as a result of that?

Mrs. Grant. Not that day.

Mr. Hubert. Not that day?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know how many days later he did come, but we were on the phone constantly. He went to the west coast and he went to see one of the names there, Mike Shore who knows Frank Sinatra there and we figured that they would know somebody and that’s how Belli came into the picture. Now, that is that part of the picture. Now, we didn’t have any money.

Mr. Hubert. What about Tonahill, how did he get in?

Mrs. Grant. Oh: he was a friend of Belli’s—Belli invited him in—as much as I know.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, Tonahill came in after Belli did; is that correct?

Mrs. Grant. Or maybe together—they were together I think on insurance cases previously—I assume this.

Mr. Hubert. So, Belli chose a local lawyer, as it were, to go along with him; is that the idea?

Mrs. Grant. Well, Tom was still in the case. Tom called him right away.

Mr. Hubert. Called who?

Mrs. Grant. You know more about that—Tom got us an investigator, Bob Dennison.

Mr. Burleson. You made the statement that Tom called you?

Mrs. Grant. Tom called you.

Mr. Hubert. You mean Phil Burleson?

Mrs. Grant. Phil Burleson.

Mr. Hubert. And ultimately, in any case, Mr. Belli was retained to handle the defense?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Was a fee arrangement made with him?

Mrs. Grant. Let me explain that part—this is what I know. I was not in San Francisco or Los Angeles. Earl told me this—he says, “You’re looking at Belli—$75,000,” and Earl thought you might as well have said $75 million, but he says, “I will want about $25,000 to pay my expenses and I think I could write a book and make $50,000.”

Mr. Hubert. Earl was telling you that?

Mrs. Grant. Earl told me words that——

Mr. Hubert. That Belli had told him?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; and this is what took place in their conversation.

Mr. Hubert. When you were quoting some sentences there a moment ago, I understood you to mean, and see if I am correct, that Earl was telling you what Belli had told him?

Mrs. Grant. Yes, and I don’t know if there was a contract—I assumed it was agreeable with Earl. Earl already had talked to a fellow by the name of Billy Woodfield, the writer. Billy Woodfield, and don’t ask me how they got connected—I know little about these things—he’s going to write a short story for Europe, and he probably could help us raise this initial $25,000 cash. Well, no; he didn’t say that—that was for his expenses—he didn’t get any money down that day as far as I know.

Mr. Hubert. Then, the fee was $75,000, of which he thought——

Mrs. Grant. He could write a book and retain $50,000 out of the book, but he would like $25,000.

Mr. Hubert. As soon as possible?

Mrs. Grant. That I don’t know—he says for expenses on the case.

Mr. Hubert. How much was actually paid to him; do you know?

Mrs. Grant. Let me tell you this—the short stories were sold in Europe and some in America through newspapers. Each paper paid separately—$400, $300, $600, and the story said, “My story—Jack Ruby.” I gave most of the story, Jack gave some of it, but I knew this story—what would you call it—little incidents that happened in his life, some of it, and some part of the story was right on Friday and Saturday the 22d. I gave the whole story, you know, I have newspaper stories of it, and I gave it to Belli, and all these little stories, we were supposed to get $50,000 from all the different agencies that bought this to put it in their papers—that’s how it’s done, but we received, I would say to my knowledge, $23,000.

Mr. Hubert. How was it handled?

Mrs. Grant. Earl.

Mr. Hubert. Earl controlled the funds at that time?

Mrs. Grant. At that time, yes. It came to the writer and the agent, Larry Schiller and Billy Woodfield. Larry sells the story, Billy wrote the story. You know, you need a writer even though you write.

Mr. Hubert. I’m talking about the money that came to you?

Mrs. Grant. Well, they received some money on the west coast but they deposited it in a bank with an escrow deal.

Mr. Hubert. In what bank and under what name was it?

Mrs. Grant. Earl will tell you—Earl has papers from the bank.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know that?

Mrs. Grant. I know it’s in Hollywood and I know Earl says he received about $23,000.

Mr. Hubert. It was not handled in Dallas.

Mrs. Grant. Not to my knowledge—1 cent of that.

Mr. Hubert. But you say that Earl is the one who is handling the money?

Mrs. Grant. At that time, Earl had power of attorney.

Mr. Hubert. He had a power of attorney from Jack?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, this contract was made for the benefit of Jack, as it were, and the money that came in was put into some escrow agreement and then Earl was able to withdraw from that and sign checks against it by virtue of the power of attorney; is that right?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right, that’s right; these people received, I would say, 35 percent.

Mr. Hubert. Is that correct—the way I put it?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; but we received ourselves, I think, $23,000—there may have been $30,000.

Mr. Hubert. What happened to the money you did receive?

Mrs. Grant. Earl has checks that were made out directly to Belli, which I think he himself cashed about $13,200.

Mr. Hubert. Who is “he”?

Mrs. Grant. Mr. Melvin Belli. I do know that the doctors were paid and that may have run to $3,500, and we do know that Bob Dennison received $4,000. I cannot give you step by step because I do not have it, but Earl has an accounting of all the money received through the efforts of that story; however, Earl has spent—I don’t know how many thousands. In the first place, I think Earl put in $7,000 right away for things, but he took it out later.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know how much has been received all told—you say about $23,000 as a result of the story?

Mrs. Grant. That’s as much as I know. This is what I know. There may have been some money—we were supposed to get money in later, but I don’t know if we got it.

Mr. Hubert. Were there any other people or organizations that contributed any money?

Mrs. Grant. No; well——

Mr. Hubert. Or, do you know?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; I know. But I’m trying to think how to tell it to you. Recently we received $100 from Walter Winchell in the last 10 days. We received $250 a month ago from friends back in Chicago. Then there is a lot of 5’s and 10’s—I guess I, myself, could not go into that account, by the way. In the city of Dallas, I received $245 that I had given to Eileen to reimburse Earl. We put that in a Jack’s defense fund. I received that amount, then that was December and January—those months, and then in March or April, I think I also took $110—let me tell you, the money comes into the county building, you know, the checks, and when I say I received it, it doesn’t come directly to me.

I typed up all the money on a list and I sent it on to Eileen with a check for deposit of $110. That’s the money that I know, but if we will stop for a minute, I know the hundred, the 250, the 245 and the hundred—those were plus that $23,000. Now, if there is any other money—did I tell you any other money? I told you everything there was.

Mr. Hubert. There are no substantial amounts?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, no; listen, don’t listen to those reports.

Mr. Hubert. Except from the result of the selling?

Mrs. Grant. The big fee was $250 and the story was sold, and we received—I would say Larry Schiller and Billy Woodfield took 35 percent of the money—the writer and the agent that sells it of the story. I know there was $23,000 came in and there may have been more since then.

Mr. Hubert. In any case, Earl would have more accurate figures?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert. As far as you know, in the handling of the money, it is less than a thousand dollars that came through you?

Mrs. Grant. I think there is a thousand in all of this money and a few hopes. The New York Times was very sympathetic and they put an ad in their paper. Most papers will not take an ad for what you call “Jack Ruby’s Defense Fund.” The ad cost $150—I think they took it less than the ad.

Mr. Hubert. You paid $150?

Mrs. Grant. I didn’t—someone in Chicago or Earl must have paid it, but I do know that, that ad went in. Now, if any other little moneys come in, I don’t have any accounting of it. I know it came in here—this is the money that I know.

Mr. Hubert. And to your knowledge, then, what has come through your hands is less than a thousand dollars?

Mrs. Grant. Well, let’s see—$245, $110, $250, and $100—I think that’s about it, unless I have forgotten some, but that’s all I know myself.

Mr. Hubert. All the rest has been handled by Earl?

Mrs. Grant. That was for the sale of the short story.

Mr. Hubert. Now, at the present time who are the attorneys for Jack Ruby? That he still has? Mr. Tonahill is apparently still in the case?

Mrs. Grant. Well, we retained Mr. Tonahill and Burleson from the very first minute and they are still in. Shall I tell him about Belli?

Mr. Burleson. Go ahead.

Mrs. Grant. The day of the verdict I got a telephone call that if Belli don’t get out of town they are going to kill him.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know who the phone call was from?

Mrs. Grant. No; but on the other hand, I think——

Mr. Hubert. Did you convey that information to Mr. Belli?

Mrs. Grant. No; but unfortunately, I didn’t hear from him Saturday. He had a heart attack while he was here, I think, during the trial—he was deathly sick.

Mr. Hubert. Belli was?

Mrs. Grant. There were a few days he went to get a cardiograph and all that. One of the days, 1 of the 2 days—well, it wasn’t 1 day, it was 3 days, really, but he went to court anyway, and I remember on the Saturday he went to some clinic here and got all kinds of tests, but the day before he was almost a goner.

After I heard the news of the verdict and what came over radio or television, I thought he would die. He couldn’t talk on the phone—he mumbled Saturday to some member of my family who called him. I didn’t hear anything until later on—late Sunday afternoon, and Monday I went to visit him at his suite.

Mr. Hubert. That was here in Dallas?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right; at the Statler-Hilton. He answered the phone and, of course, I heard mumbling and there were newspapermen and Life magazine men—I don’t remember everyone that was there, but there were 10 or 12, maybe about 10 people, my sister and myself. His wife was leaving one direction and he was leaving the other. She was white as a ghost and he was white as a ghost and I just didn’t say anything because they were packed up to leave and I didn’t want it to get out because he said he was going to San Antonio, but I don’t think he went there at all. I think he went another direction because he just wanted to sort of fool who was after him, but it was a very bad day for him and myself and my sister. I didn’t even tell her that. You see, they were downtown and I was home in my apartment the day of the verdict. I was glad when he left. That, and adding up a few other things—people said, “You are lucky to get him out because you didn’t know the things.” They said, “They were trying Melvin Belli and they weren’t trying Jack Ruby.”

Of course, between that telephone call and everything——

Mr. Hubert. Was that a local call?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, no.

Mr. Hubert. Or, was it a long distance call?

Mrs. Grant. No; it was a local call.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a man or a woman?

Mrs. Grant. A man, and another thing, I know my phone was tapped and I know—it’s a terrible thing to say, but I have all reasons to believe that the district attorney has been on it and is still on it. The only time they got off is when I went to the FBI and complained about it; that I thought my brother wasn’t protected in the city jail, and somebody knows every move I was making. It seems my phone was clearer after that, and truthfully, if the district attorney has any tapes on me, it should be in on the tape of the day of the verdict, and I was so sick over the verdict and having this.

Mr. Hubert. You did not recognize the voice that made the threat against Belli?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Hubert. Were you asked to convey that information to Belli?

Mrs. Grant. No; no.

Mr. Hubert. How long did that conversation last; do you know?

Mrs. Grant. Not over 3 or 4 minutes. It was the other party speaking. This happened the afternoon—the day my brother got his horrible verdict.

Mr. Hubert. That was Saturday afternoon, March 14?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right; March 14.

Mr. Hubert. About what time of the afternoon was it?

Mrs. Grant. I would say after 2:30—sometime between 2:30 and 4, it seems.

Mr. Hubert. It was a one-sided conversation, I take it?

Mrs. Grant. Practically.

Mr. Hubert. And the essence and the gist of the conversation was that if Mr. Belli did not leave town he would be injured?

Mrs. Grant. The voice said something like this, “Mrs. Grant?” I says, “Yes.” He said, “If Melvin Belli knows what’s good for him, he had better leave town. They are going to kill him.” Now, I don’t know—this man didn’t sound like a child and he didn’t sound like an imbecile.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ask him who he meant by “they”?

Mrs. Grant. I’ll tell you the truth, I was so shocked at the verdict, and before I knew it he was off—I was hanging on the phone there by myself.

Mr. Hubert. Did he indicate to you in any way who “they” were?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Hubert. Or who was going to kill him?

Mrs. Grant. No. Oh, now I want to tell you about—going back to Monday, which would be the 16th, there was conversation and, of course, I think I heard this Sunday too.

Mr. Hubert. That’s March 16?

Mrs. Grant. I think March 16 was on a Monday.

Mr. Hubert. That’s correct.

Mrs. Grant. But I may have heard this Sunday, that the sheriff—and there has been threats against Belli—and this is another thing I know, whether someone is on my phone and leaked it out—it wasn’t me, that the sheriff is going to give Belli a guard out of town, that he has been threatened, but I already knew that. Then, I got to thinking about all of this and I says, “I hope he leaves, I don’t want to have this on my mind,” but, I knew when I was in his suite of rooms—somebody called there Monday afternoon sometime and he went to the phone for a minute; as a rule someone else was answering the phone, and then he went in the bedroom there and he answered the phone. He had quite a suite of rooms—three rooms, I think, and the remark among the people there—they said the sheriff is going to give him a guard, you know, escort him out of town.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you heard that that afternoon.

Mrs. Grant. Too, but it wasn’t—I already had known that from the conversation Saturday afternoon, it didn’t look good.

Mr. Hubert. Did he comment upon this telephone call that he answered himself?

Mrs. Grant. No; he hardly did any talking that afternoon.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you mentioned the telephone call, I wonder why you did so, that is to say, what import you had put on it?

Mrs. Grant. You want to know the truth?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; I want to know the truth.

Mrs. Grant. I was not thinking anything about it but he is coming back for a trial and I told Phil recently, I thought he was going to get his trial transferred from the Texas Bar Association and I guess he can’t. I wasn’t going to say anything about it—I figured—he’s never coming back, but now I am a little scared. I wouldn’t like anything—look, you don’t want a lawyer in a case?

Mr. Hubert. Let me finish about this phone call—is there any other significance to that phone call that you heard him answer? You mentioned it in connection with this.

Mrs. Grant. It didn’t look right when he left—left the phone.

Mr. Hubert. That’s just an impression, though, he didn’t say anything to indicate the nature of it?

Mrs. Grant. No; no.

Mr. Hubert. You indicated that perhaps, I say—you indicated—the way you brought it up—it could be inferred perhaps that it was also a threatening phone call?

Mrs. Grant. No, no; I didn’t mean that at all.

Mr. Hubert. But, do you know that to be a fact?

Mrs. Grant. No, no; this was merely that the sheriff said he was going to escort him out of town.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think it was the sheriff on the phone?

Mrs. Grant. It could be—that’s what I felt, and shortly after this there was another phone call came in and he went in and he took the call.

Mr. Hubert. When you said the rumor or talk was that the sheriff was going to escort him out of town, I assumed you meant he was going to give him protection, is that what you meant?

Mrs. Grant. That’s what I mean, so he doesn’t get hurt. Maybe the sheriff knows something about this, although he does know—I don’t know. I only know I was too sick after the verdict to even think about anything, but now that I know he’s coming back, I asked Phil, I said, “Do you think he’s coming back?” And he says, “Yes; he’s coming back.”

Mr. Hubert. Mrs. Grant or Mr. Burleson, do you have any other matter I have touched upon that you would like to bring up at this time?

Mr. Burleson. I would like to go into some of these things you have just questioned her about.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Burleson. Right at first, Mr. Tom Howard did go down and talk to Jack on Sunday the 24th?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Burleson. And did get a writ of habeas corpus, I believe?

Mrs. Grant. I know nothing of the court procedures of that date.

Mr. Burleson. You don’t know that Judge Brown did set a bond on assault with intent to commit murder upon Lee Harvey Oswald before this hearing?

Mrs. Grant. I understand it was filed in Richardson. I may be wrong. Someone told me that, that they did file a murder charge against Oswald.

Mr. Burleson. Before Oswald was pronounced dead, did you know anything about Judge Joe B. Brown setting bond and granting a writ to let Jack out on assault with intent to commit murder?

Mrs. Grant. I honestly——

Mr. Burleson. Do you or not?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t.

Mr. Burleson. Then, subsequently, Mr. Howard had myself go up and talk to Jack—you learned that, did you not?

Mrs. Grant. I learned there were about three or four or five attorneys that went up and talked to Jack.

Mr. Burleson. Then, Mr. Belli came in town and at the time, did you hear from Mr. Tonahill?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. He called you in the middle of the night, I believe?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. And did he tell you that he and Mr. Belli were together?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Burleson. Did he just mention himself?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. What did he say?

Mrs. Grant. He asked me if I had hired an attorney and I said, “I think Earl got somebody.” And they were discussing it with Percy Foreman, but I was wrong. They never got to Percy Foreman because Tom Howard never called him.

Mr. Burleson. Then Melvin Belli did come in town and met with Mr. Tom Howard and Mr. Tonahill?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And stayed out at the Cabana Hotel, I believe, the motel out on Stemmons Freeway?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I was never at that hotel to visit them—I can’t remember.

Mr. Burleson. Earl was in town at the same time Mr. Belli was in town?

Mrs. Grant. I think you are right there—that they were all over there—Earl was there for a couple of days but I didn’t go there.

Mr. Burleson. Then Mr. Belli went down and talked with Jack prior to the time and he said that he would accept the case, do you remember that?

Mrs. Grant. I’m sure he did.

Mr. Burleson. And after talking to Jack, do you remember he said he would accept the case at that time?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Burleson, may I make this suggestion—of course, this is not a court hearing, on the other hand, for the sake of the value of the testimony, I think if you wouldn’t lead her so much that the testimony might have more weight.

Mrs. Grant. Well, I’ll tell you, my mind—I’m just about out of my mind.

Mr. Burleson. Yes. Do you know if that is when I became active in the case—at that time?

Mrs. Grant. I think you came in about—it seems to me—about a week after this incident—it seems to me that’s when I first met you.

Mr. Burleson. And do you know if Mr. Belli brought any attorneys with him from California?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Do you know who that was?

Mrs. Grant. I know he brought Samuel Brody.

Mr. Burleson. Now, after this, there was a bond hearing, I believe; is that correct?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And who sat at the counsel table with Mr. Ruby, your brother?

Mrs. Grant. I know you were there and I know Mr. Brody and Tonahill, Mr. Belli—I think Tom Howard was there right along then.

Mr. Burleson. And then, that actually was on one occasion or on two occasions that that bond hearing was held; or do you recall?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me a couple of times—maybe more than that.

Mr. Burleson. Then bond was denied?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. Then, at the time of the change of venue, do you know who the attorneys were at that time?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me the same group were still there.

Mr. Burleson. Do you recall about that time if anything occurred in connection with Tom Howard and his connection with the case?

Mrs. Grant. About the picture?

Mr. Burleson. No; just about whether or not he continued in the case or did he?

Mrs. Grant. It seems to me at that time—he was leaking information to the district attorney’s office, he was in the way of Mr. Belli and Mr. Tonahill—at least they felt that or they told me that. We had found a mistrust in him, which is close to that time as I can remember, where information has come to us that Tom Howard is trying to sell a picture of the late President Kennedy being shot and half of his skull is in the air, to Life magazine, and I think Billy Woodfield had told that to Earl and Earl told me to get ahold of the Secret Service, they came out to see me and Elmer Moore, and another gentleman—I cannot think of the other gentleman’s name—he probably could recall—and we went in the alley because I don’t know if my place is bugged or not, and the Secret Service stepped in to either squash the sale of this particular picture or got ahold of it—the films and everything, and, of course, when Belli found out, he was sick because he said it don’t look right for an attorney representing a person to do something like this.

Mr. Burleson. All right. Anyway—somewhere around there——

Mr. Hubert. May I examine her just a little on that point?

Mr. Burleson. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever find out whether it was true that Mr. Howard was doing this?

Mrs. Grant. Well, since then I heard it was true, but doubly true there’s some girl that works for one of your departments who heard and who told another person that there is evidence there is a picture of that kind in existence.

Mr. Hubert. You have never seen the picture?

Mrs. Grant. No; I haven’t. I also heard several days before the assassination there was a pamphlet put in all the drugstores where you sell magazines and was distributed all through the city of Dallas with the late President’s picture, and the top of its says, “Wanted” and the bottom had a number like a jailman, you know, a convict, and the day of the assassination, early that afternoon these distributors had a devil of a time trying to remember all the places they placed that particular pamphlet, that was for sale for 10 cents or 15 cents.

Mr. Burleson. Come back up to his question.

Mr. Hubert. I just wanted to explore whether or not it had come to your knowledge whether the story was the truth or not?

Mrs. Grant. This all came to me—call me back on the word “communism” that I said later on, if you want?

Mr. Burleson. Do you know anything else about this alleged sale of the picture?

Mrs. Grant. Nothing, but Earl told me to get ahold of the men here and I did and I called the office and Elmer Moore came out and I told him.

Mr. Burleson. All right. Coming back—along about this time—did you, Earl, and Stanley Kaufman and so forth enter into some kind of a contract with Mr. Howard where he would withdraw from the case?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Did you pay him some money?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; the first week he was in, I had a little money and I think it was when I sold the Vegas Club and I think I had $1,600 and I had bills to pay but I didn’t pay them and I gave him $200.

Mr. Burleson. At the time that you terminated his services in the case, did you pay him some money then?

Mrs. Grant. We gave him a check for $2,000—we gave him $2,700 altogether, but I gave him $2,000 when he signed the contract to step out of the case.

Mr. Burleson. Now, when the change of venue hearing started——

Mrs. Grant. By the way, when I say “I gave him”—that money came also out of the $23,000.

Mr. Burleson. Now, when the change of venue started and the picking of the jury followed, who were the attorneys then that were sitting there at the counsel table?

Mrs. Grant. Well, Belli, Tonahill and yourself—I don’t remember—I think Sam Brody was sick and went home. However, Mr. Belli brought in a young gentleman who came and sat for a while.

Mr. Burleson. Could that have been Mr. Bill Choulous?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And that was out of Mr. Belli’s office?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. Then, when it got into the actual trial of the case after the change of venue lasted about a week, who were the attorneys then during the picking of the jury?

Mrs. Grant. Well, Mr. Burleson, Mr. Joe Tonahill, and Mr. Belli did all the work from picking the jury and through the trial.

Mr. Burleson. The three of them?

Mrs. Grant. The three of them.

Mr. Burleson. And they continued on through the trial?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And they were the only ones sitting with Jack Ruby at the time of the verdict?

Mrs. Grant. You know, I was not in the courtroom all during the trial. They kept me out in the lobby, but I do know—that is what I heard or saw.

Mr. Burleson. Now, within a week after the verdict came in, did you write a letter to Mr. Belli dismissing him from the case or asking him to withdraw, one or the other?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. You told him in the letter—what?

Mrs. Grant. Well, I couldn’t reach him by telephone and since he’s traveling around, and I’m——

Mr. Burleson. What did you tell him in the letter?

Mrs. Grant. Say it again?

Mr. Burleson. Did you tell him in effect if he didn’t resign you would fire him?

Mrs. Grant. Well, yes; words to that effect.

Mr. Burleson. In other words, he did resign?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I think that letter was published in the press, was it not?

Mrs. Grant. No—I never gave it to them. If it was, it shouldn’t be, because we only made three copies, the original went to him and one to Mr. Burleson and one to Tonahill. I didn’t want any more copies around—I didn’t want that—that was one of the things that bothered me.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t know, ma’am, I had the impression that I had seen that letter through seeing a copy of it in the press.

Mrs. Grant. If you did—I didn’t see it here, or we didn’t, and we would have known it.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t know—I may be mistaken.

Mrs. Grant. That is one thing—that’s the whole thing—the whole case was tried in the papers.

Mr. Burleson. Now, after that you were feeling pretty low and sick at that time, weren’t you?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Did your family—Earl and Sam and sisters go down to Houston and talk to Mr. Percy Foreman?

Mrs. Grant. They did.

Mr. Burleson. Was a contract drawn up at that time?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; there was.

Mr. Burleson. Did Mr. Foreman know you had Jack Ruby’s power of attorney?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t know what they told him but it was well indicated that I was now controlling. I took over Earl Ruby’s power.

Mr. Burleson. What did Mr. Foreman do as to whether or not he made any announcements as to whether he was the attorney?

Mrs. Grant. Well, he immediately called in the press. He immediately stated what he wanted, he took pictures of my family and he said he wanted $5,000 within 10 days and another $5,000 30 days following the 10 days.

Mr. Burleson. Did he come to Dallas shortly thereafter?

Mrs. Grant. The following week, I think, he came to Dallas—it wasn’t that weekend, it was the following weekend—am I right—or was it that week?

Mr. Burleson. That week—I think they went down there, if I might help you a little bit, about Monday.

Mrs. Grant. He came down on a Saturday—I did not see him, but I spoke with him over the phone. I thought he asked too much money. He wanted power of attorney and I wasn’t happy about the contract, because these contracts have a——

Mr. Burleson. You had not signed a contract?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Burleson. Anyway, he went and visited Jack?

Mrs. Grant. And he wanted Jack to come downstairs to take pictures with him and our civil attorney, Stanley Marcus——

Mr. Burleson. Do you mean Stanley Kaufman?

Mrs. Grant. Stanley Kaufman, pardon me, wouldn’t permit it. He said “This is one of the reasons Mrs. Grant and her family didn’t want Belli in the picture. There has been too much newspaper publicity, radio, and television. He couldn’t be hurt any worse and there is no sense of you getting into this widespread publicity,” and Mr. Foreman and Mr. Kaufman got into some squabble there and Mr. Kaufman left heated, I understand, and Mr. Percy Foreman called me later that afternoon that he was coming out to see me in the evening. He heard I had a doctor and I was sick. He didn’t show up.

Mr. Burleson. Did he make arrangements to meet you the next morning?

Mrs. Grant. He did.

Mr. Burleson. Monday morning?

Mrs. Grant. At 9:30.

Mr. Burleson. Where?

Mrs. Grant. In the lobby of his hotel—the Statler.

Mr. Burleson. Did you come down?

Mrs. Grant. I came down.

Mr. Burleson. With whom?

Mrs. Grant. With my sister Eileen.

Mr. Burleson. Did you meet him?

Mrs. Grant. I met Mr. Burleson and Mr. Tonahill and we waited, and we went upstairs and waited—we ordered some coffee and a roll and we waited there about an hour and 40 minutes. The telephone rang and a news commentator was on the phone and Mr. Burleson answered it and Mr. Burleson was shocked from what he heard on the phone, that Mr. Percy Foreman, instead of coming down to his own room to see us, he went to the newspaper office somewhere or television or radio—I have no idea, and made a public display of himself, that he is withdrawing from the case. He indicated that he didn’t get along with the family and he didn’t like our attorney—our civil attorney.

Mr. Burleson. Did you at any time see him personally?

Mrs. Grant. I never met him personally.

Mr. Burleson. He then got out of the case and hasn’t had anything to do with it since?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Burleson. Then, shortly thereafter, did you have an opportunity to have a conference with Dr. Hubert Winston Smith?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; I did.

Mr. Burleson. And did you, Jack, and everybody sign a contract with Dr. Hubert Smith?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. Employing him as chief counsel?

Mrs. Grant. Yes—as chief counsel.

Mr. Burleson. And keeping Mr. Tonahill and myself on?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes.

Mr. Burleson. Subsequent to that time, did your brother up in Chicago talk to a Mr. Charles Bellows?

Mrs. Grant. Well, Mr. Bellows knew about this case right along because members of the family have known him for 20 or 30 years. I have never known him—I have heard of him—they went to him, and it’s got so sick and sickening here that Earl decided, as a friend, he could help us and he is in the background.

Mr. Burleson. Would you say he is in more an advisory capacity?

Mrs. Grant. Just as a good family friend, and he is, I understand, a very fine great criminal lawyer and he wants to help.

Mr. Hubert. And you are speaking of the present as well as the past?

Mrs. Grant. In the past he didn’t intercede because he figured Belli would be capable. Not that—now, wait a minute—I don’t mean to say that they are not—it’s just after there is so much to it and he has heard how the case was handled, and since Earl went to him.

Mr. Burleson. And Mr. Bellows did make one trip down to Dallas?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; he did.

Mr. Burleson. And stayed a matter of hours and then flew on back?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Burleson. So that to get back to what we wanted to answer the question he asked you earlier—who are the present attorneys now?

Mrs. Grant. Phil Burleson, who is doing most of the work, Mr. Joe Tonahill, Mr. Hubert Winston Smith, and Mr. Charles Bellows.

Mr. Burleson. And Bellows is in an advisory capacity to help any way he can?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right. I’m sorry I forgot about some of them.

Mr. Burleson. Now, going to this money situation—as far as you know, recognizing that you are under oath—as far as you know, there were no contributions of any large sum other than the one $250 that you have talked about.

Mrs. Grant. That was the largest and the one and only of that kind.

Mr. Burleson. Have you heard rumors that the Ruby defense fund received large sums?

Mrs. Grant. I have heard they got—I think they’ve got close to a thousand dollars—I may be wrong.

Mr. Burleson. I mean, have you heard rumors for instance, not too long ago I heard a rumor that Stanley Marcus gave $25,000; have you heard rumors similar to that?

Mrs. Grant. I have heard many of those kind by different people but we haven’t received it.

Mr. Burleson. You know nothing about any such large sum?

Mrs. Grant. (Shaking head so as to indicate a negative reply.)

Mr. Hubert. She is shaking her head—the answer is “no”.

Mrs. Grant. Oh. I’m sorry; no.

Mr. Burleson. Mainly, the only things you know about personally or have heard about from other members of the family are the sale to the magazine of the story, which you have told us about, and the small amount you have told us about?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And you know of no organization that has given any sum?

Mrs. Grant. Not that I know—they may be now—Earl is trying to talk to some organizations that he belongs to like B’nai B’rith, that he used to belong to—I don’t know. This is what I know—what I told you.

Mr. Burleson. All right, but you don’t know of any—say—labor unions or civic clubs or anything like that that have given any money?

Mrs. Grant. I’m sure—I’m sure they haven’t. In fact, wait a minute—Michael Levin, another good friend of the family—we know him only for 45 years and he’s my older brother’s friend since they were 14 years old and he has compiled a letter and is asking certain individuals that he knows—doctors, lawyers, big business people—to contribute, and when I talked to Eileen last, which was Saturday, she said, “We didn’t receive one—” some of them don’t even answer the letters and some say they haven’t got it or something else.

Mr. Burleson. Now, there were some reports in the newspapers concerning the fact that Dr. Hubert Winston Smith was going to raise a lot of money.

Mrs. Grant. Well, we hope he’s going to raise a lot of money—we hope he can raise sufficient money to cover legal fees. He’s interested in an academy institute of law and science.

Mr. Burleson. Have you received any money from Dr. Winston Smith?

Mrs. Grant. No; and I don’t think he’s gotten anything or even worked on it yet.

Mr. Burleson. Now, to clarify my position in the thing—you have paid me, the family has paid me a total for everything, somewhere in the neighborhood of $700 or $800 or $900?

Mrs. Grant. At the most—that’s right.

Mr. Burleson. You are trying to get more together, though, aren’t you?

Mrs. Grant. Well, now, wait a minute—Belli was supposed to pay out of that $13,000—$2,000—I asked him what he was going to pay you. He didn’t pay you?

Mr. Burleson. Right.

Mrs. Grant. As he told me.

Mr. Burleson. Right.

Mrs. Grant. And I know he didn’t pay you—that was up until the time he didn’t pay you at that time.

Mr. Burleson. But I have entered into a verbal contract with you and the other members of the family for you to compensate me on the appeal and things of that nature—right?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. I’m through, as far as I am concerned, on that point. Now, is there anything other than what we have talked about here that you want to clarify further——

Mrs. Grant. Yes; I want to clarify——

Mr. Burleson. Wait, let me finish—or do you think that we haven’t talked about anything that you feel like is important that you would like to state at this time?

Mrs. Grant. We have never received money from any unethical organization, labor work, gratis, friends, or relatives such as gangsters or unions or Jack has gotten one dime out of anybody of that kind, or racketeer money, bookies or any type of, you know, discriminating businesses of any kind. I know his finances, I know where he has gotten 99 percent of his money and that is from members of the family. In fact, they can ask Marian and Earl a good deal about that.

I also know the night of November 22 when Jack was with me the evening before—7:15—during that short time he was with me and they were talking about Oswald, I had made the statement and this is what I said. “Don’t worry,” and I told it to the FBI and I didn’t see it in the report.

Mr. Burleson. “Don’t worry”—what?

Mrs. Grant. “That lousy Communist”—I’m referring to, and I mean, I assumed this myself.

Mr. Burleson. And you said it in Jack’s presence?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right. “Don’t worry, that some lousy Communist will get him before anybody else does.”

Mr. Burleson. The Communist will get him before anybody else?

Mrs. Grant. That’s just what I said and I did not see it in this report—I don’t think I saw it. I did say it because I already talked to four or five people on the phone and I’m going to tell you why I said that—everyone on television and it seems it was Curry, which is our chief of police—says he’s someone that’s come out with three draft cards, he has been in Cuba and he defected to Russia and I think my mind is like 40 million other grownups, decided that he was a Communist sent here for this kind of a thing and the people that I knew that I speak to on the phone at that time or had been friends with all felt the same way or talked about it in that way. He couldn’t help but think that. It’s because what television has presented to the public, and then this thing in the paper and this was only Friday evening, and I have made that remark—I made it not only to him, to Pauline Hall, and to Madeline Blainey and to Emma and to Leo and whoever called I kept talking about that and made that remark, and I made it not only to him but to these others, and I kept talking about it because I was imbedded with that in my mind from television. They kept talking about it—they indicated he had three draft cards, he went to Russia and they threw him out and they planted him here and he went to Cuba and he had money and he was going to hire a plane.

Mr. Burleson. Okay—anything else you want to go into this to clarify this?

Mrs. Grant. Jack has always been a fighter for the Jews. Any—in the Army, if they look back, he didn’t mind—if you fought and if you cussed and they said words like sheeny or kike or Jew—he belted it out to them. I know my brother Jack. He told me of different incidents. One of the things that he loved about this President—he didn’t care what you were, you were a human being and Jack felt that this was one time in history that Jews are getting the break. He put in great Jewish men in office, they were fit to hold the office, and, of course, we are not Catholics and we never discuss religion in that effect, but my brother had such a great admiration for this man. It’s unbelievable.

Mr. Hubert. Did Jack ever tell you why he shot Oswald?

Mrs. Grant. The truth is this—here recently with his head out—he said he did it for Jackie and the kids, but I think he’s just looking for a reason.

Mr. Hubert. No; I’m talking about the first few days?

Mrs. Grant. He didn’t talk—for 10 days he never mentioned it and I never mentioned it, but in this white overall he had a little picture and on one side is the late President’s picture in color. It is the most beautiful picture of him that I have seen. On the other side is a prayer of the Catholics. I have never seen my brother carry anything like that. He is definitely a good Jew no matter what people think. He had kissed the President’s picture in front of me—right in front of me like a baby, and he held that card prayer and his lawyers have seen him, and I don’t know what denomination they all are—we don’t go that way. He just held that card there, there’s a little pocket in there—all he knows—let me put it this way—it maybe was in back of his mind something that I don’t know or nobody knows, but he loved the President, but he had no idea of doing this. In the first place——

Mr. Hubert. It wouldn’t do any good, I don’t believe, for you to give your opinions.

Mrs. Grant. All right.

Mr. Hubert. If you know from what he told you, that’s another matter, but you say he has not told you that?

Mrs. Grant. This was a shock out of my wits.

Mr. Burleson. Let me ask you this—he didn’t tell you that, then?

Mrs. Grant. No.

Mr. Burleson. Now, something we haven’t gone into and might be relevant to this—Jack had a great acquaintance with the police, didn’t he?

Mrs. Grant. Far greater than the average citizen of this city, unless they were a wife of a man.

Mr. Burleson. Could you tell us what Jack’s attitude was toward the police?

Mrs. Grant. They were very friendly, he admired them, he thought they were good people. On many occasions some policeman would have a night off and he would want to take his wife out on his anniversary and it’s in between paydays, Jack would let him have $10 and he would say, “I’ll write a check” and so Jack didn’t want to take the check and sometimes he would hold it 6 years and this check was still in there which they can see among his possessions. He admired the police department. He was very close. In fact, he entertained them in the club on their nights off and I’m positive some have been out to his apartment.

Mr. Burleson. Do you know whether or not Jack knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mrs. Grant. He said he knew a Tippit but it’s like me—there was a Tipton, a Tippit, and a Tipin (spelling) p-i-n, and a Tipton, and as far as I was concerned, even when Payton was talking to me, they were all the same man, until much later I found out there are three Tippits, there is a Tipton and a Tipin.

Mr. Burleson. Did Jack, during the period November 22 through the last time you talked to him on the 23d or the 24th of November, say anything to you about the fact that Officer Tippit was killed?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; on Saturday evening, during this 4-hour period I was very sick and I, of course—I was physically sick besides mentally sick now over the assassination of the President, and we talked about the Governor being shot and different things and he says, “You think you will be all right to go to the funeral,” but I was so sick.

Mr. Burleson. Did he say what funeral?

Mrs. Grant. Oh, yes; he meant the policeman’s funeral—Tippit’s. Of course, a lot of people don’t know—he went to all of the policemen’s funerals and, of course, there has been a few funerals—if it was a member of their families and if he knew the fellows he would go. He was that kind. He tried to pay his respects to people.

Mr. Burleson. But he did have a conversation about Tippit?

Mrs. Grant. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. What did he say about Tippit being killed?

Mrs. Grant. He said, “You think you will be all right”—and this was Saturday, and I said, “Yes,” and he said, “Well, do you think you will be all right?” And I hollered back like—I said, “Yes—yes,” and not to bother me. I was too sick—I didn’t even want to think of it, but I’ll be honest, all the time he’s talking to me I had it in my mind—“I’m not going, I’m too sick and I know I ain’t going to feel good Monday,” see.

Mr. Burleson. In other words, he told you he had planned to go to Tippit’s funeral on Monday?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right—no; he didn’t say “Monday”, he did not say Monday—he didn’t say the date.

Mr. Burleson. Whenever it was?

Mrs. Grant. He said to the funeral.

Mr. Burleson. Tippit’s funeral?

Mrs. Grant. Yes; but he says—he saw I was sick and he figured maybe I don’t want to get out and he says, “Do you think you can go to dinner tomorrow?” And he does take me to dinner.

Mr. Burleson. But anyway, he had made arrangements or was telling you that he and you were going to the funeral of Tippit, is that right?

Mrs. Grant. That’s correct—that’s what he thought.

Mr. Burleson. But you didn’t feel up to it physically?

Mrs. Grant. That Saturday I couldn’t see myself going, I’ll tell you, I just wanted to quiet him down.

Mr. Burleson. And as far as you know. Jack did not know Tippit?

Mrs. Grant. I don’t—I don’t know, all I could tell you is that Jack lived in Oak Cliff for a couple of years or maybe a year and a half and Tippit, being of that area, he could have run into him and known of him slightly. He didn’t know him as well as other policemen that I know he knows. I know of policemen much closer than him, but since this all happened, one of my coworkers, Leo Torti, showed me a magazine and Tippit was in our club sometime—a month previous to this—previous to his killing.

Mr. Hubert. Was it a picture of Tippit?

Mrs. Grant. It was a picture of Tippit, and he said, “Do you remember he talked to you up at the front, he was in in September or October or November sometime.”

Mr. Burleson. Was that the Carousel or the Vegas?

Mrs. Grant. The Vegas, and while I looked at him then I remembered that he looked familiar, but truthfully, you know, after the President’s assassination and this incident of my brother I didn’t see any newspaper. I didn’t look for anything to read. I had no television or radio on—I couldn’t take it.

Mr. Burleson. Mr. Hubert, I think that is all I have along that line.

Mr. Hubert. Mrs. Grant, earlier today, as a matter of fact, at the very beginning or prior to the beginning of the deposition, I showed you a list of names and telephone numbers and addresses on a document consisting of 37 pages, marked with a large “E”, and asked you to go through that list and make a check mark as to every name and number that had any significance to you at all.

Now, you have done so and I am going to ask, if I may, with the consent of your attorney, that I now read off that list of names as to those names that you have checked off, and I am going to request the reporter to make a special list of those that you have checked off and hand it to you so that you may make comments of your own, and then after consultation with your attorney, draft up an affidavit as to what comments you have to make with respect to each one of these people. In other words, you have indicated that the names that have been checked off have a significance to you.

Mrs. Grant. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. I would like you to prepare notes and with the assistance of your attorney, draft an affidavit as to what significance each one of these names has. I understand that it will be perhaps a matter of 2 weeks or so before you can get that because there are quite a number of names.

Now, I will read those names so that the record will show which of the names you have marked off. I understand that as to those you have not marked off, those names have no significance to you; is that correct?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right—I can’t relate them to anything.

Mr. Burleson. May I make a suggestion—it may be a little time consuming, but if she could look back through that now that she has had an opportunity to testify and recall many, many things that she probably hasn’t thought of in some time—she could very quickly look at the ones she didn’t check?

Mrs. Grant. Is it possible that some of those are license plate numbers—could you tell?

Mr. Hubert. They seem to be mostly telephone numbers.

Mr. Burleson. Yes; ma’am—that’s right.

Mrs. Grant. May I explain something to you?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; please.

Mrs. Grant. All right. Jack would be driving along in his car and there would be a young lady drive up to the right of him. If she didn’t have a marriage ring and she looked cute and he thought she might like to see a little night life he would let her pass—he would look at her license number and copy the number and find out in the city hall where to send her—her name and address and the telephone—a complimentary card to come to the Vegas Club—he as a host.

Now, I told this to Payton and the other people and he would send these people cards because girls would come to the club and ask me, “Where is Mr. Ruby?” And I would say, “He’s not here.” And they said, “Well, he sent me this complimentary card.” Once I said something to him about it and he said “Oh, I sent this to a girl,” and I never thought anything about it. Finally, when he was arrested and I knew they found a lot of numbers, I said to him, “What are these numbers for?” And he said, “You know they are license plate numbers.”

Mr. Hubert. I see your point—it might be better if we gave her the whole list.

Mrs. Grant. I’m not going to steal it.

Mr. Hubert. I can’t give you this list but I can get these names run off.

Mr. Burleson. Suppose we do it that way and it may be that in time she can reflect better.

Mr. Hubert. Suppose we do it that way, then, and instead of doing it the way we have agreed, I will supply you with a list of all of these names and ask that you look at all of them and possibly you will see some that you have overlooked?

Mrs. Grant. That’s right—there may be one or two that I have overlooked.

Mr. Hubert. And I will ask you, then, to give us an affidavit as to the significance of any of these.

Mrs. Grant. I will be happy to.

Mr. Hubert. I would ask that you give us the affidavit only upon your own knowledge.

Mr. Burleson. Not as to what she has heard?

Mr. Hubert. Well, if she indicates it is what she knows from her own knowledge as apart from what she has heard.

Mrs. Grant. These are mostly strippers and waitresses that I know or have known, or comedians. Listen, what happened to the two boxes of names and addresses that they took out?

Mr. Hubert. I don’t know, ma’am. It may well be that these are they.

Mrs. Grant. That isn’t enough.

Mr. Hubert. Off the record.

(Discussion between counsel and the witness as to the names shown on the list heretofore referred to.)

Mr. Burleson. May I ask you—do you want this in one single affidavit, paragraph by paragraph?

Mr. Hubert. I don’t think so. I think that the affidavit could be in the usual form.

Mr. Burleson. What I am asking is, do you want a single affidavit as to each one of the names here?

Mr. Hubert. I think not, I think the usual affidavit form—one that says that—having been handed a list and so forth, that she has the following comment to make on each and then in numerical sequence, and as to the rest of them there is no significance.

Mr. Burleson. And one notary signature will be sufficient?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Burleson. And then there will be just one instrument?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mrs. Grant. I do want to say this: Do you know Jack in his early teens and in the early thirties—he and these bad boys he later on disassociated himself with, they were people in the neighborhood—broke up Bund meetings in Chicago—do you know Chicago at all?

Mr. Hubert. No.

Mr. Burleson. For the record, I have no other questions to ask.

Mr. Hubert. I haven’t either. Thank you very much.

Mrs. Grant. All right.

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