TESTIMONY OF RALPH PAUL
The testimony of Ralph Paul was taken at 2:25 p.m., on August 24, 1964, at the Federal Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Mr. Ralph Paul.
Mr. Paul, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.
I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mr. Paul, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and so forth.
Now, I believe you are appearing here by virtue of a telephone call asking you to come, is that correct?
Mr. Paul. Today?
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Mr. Paul. Yes; for today—on Friday.
Mr. Hubert. You were called on Friday to appear here today?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You received no letter?
Mr. Paul. Yes; today.
Mr. Hubert. That letter was received today?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. That was a letter from Mr. Rankin, was it?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Well, under the rules adopted by the Commission every witness has the right to a 3-day notice, actually dated from the date of the notice, but in any case, the rules do provide that any witness may waive that 3-day written notice, and I ask you now if you are going to waive the 3-day written notice and proceed to testify now, today?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Would you rise and let me administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Your name is Ralph Paul?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. And your address is what, sir?
Mr. Paul. 1936 East Abrams.
Mr. Hubert. That’s in Arlington?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. I have a number of questions to ask you here and I think they will just simply flow along. Do you recall whether you received any telephone calls from Jack Ruby’s sister, Eva Grant on Saturday, November the 23d, that is to say, the day after the President was shot?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You did not receive any calls?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you receive any calls from Andy Armstrong?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you receive any calls on that day from any of Eva Grant’s friends?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you receive any call from Ruby that day?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when that was?
Mr. Paul. Well, one was—I think—at 6 o’clock.
Mr. Hubert. That’s on Saturday?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Where were you then?
Mr. Paul. At the place of business.
Mr. Hubert. That’s at the Bull Pen?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. He called you?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you where he was calling from?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Now, do you know where he was calling from?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you speak to him?
Mr. Paul. Oh, about 3 minutes—4 minutes.
Mr. Hubert. What was the conversation about, do you recall?
Mr. Paul. Just telling me that he closed the club down for 3 days.
Mr. Hubert. Now, are you speaking of Friday night or Saturday night?
Mr. Paul. Both. He said, did I see the ad in the paper, and I said, “No, I don’t get Saturday’s paper.”
Mr. Hubert. This was on Saturday?
Mr. Paul. Yes; on Saturday.
Mr. Hubert. Had you talked to him on Friday night?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Hadn’t he told you on Friday night that he was going to close down the club?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. But he called you again on Saturday night about 6 o’clock, and did he tell you the same thing?
Mr. Paul. No; he asked me if I saw it in the paper.
Mr. Hubert. And that’s what that call was about?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And there was no other subject of conversation?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Now, on Saturday night, November 23, did you see a man by the name of Bruce Carlin?
Mr. Paul. I didn’t see anybody on Saturday night because I was working.
Mr. Hubert. Well, of course, that wouldn’t necessarily prevent you from seeing him at your place of business, sir? Did you see Mr. Carlin?
Mr. Paul. Carlin—who is Bruce Carlin?
Mr. Hubert. You don’t know a man by the name of Bruce Carlin?
Mr. Paul. The name doesn’t sound familiar to me.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know Karen Bennett, Little Lynn?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Well, perhaps it will refresh your memory if I said to you that Bruce Carlin is her husband?
Mr. Paul. I never knew him by name.
Mr. Hubert. He’s a blonde boy?
Mr. Paul. I know him now when you say it.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see him on Saturday, November 23?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know Tammi True?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. I think that’s her stage name and her real name is Nancy Powell?
Mr. Paul. Yes—Powell.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see her on Saturday night, November 23?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Or at any time on Saturday?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Now, going back a little further to Wednesday night, which would have been the 20th of November, two nights before the President was shot—I would like to ask you if you saw Ruby on that night; Jack Ruby?
Mr. Paul. I really don’t remember. I saw him on Thursday night.
Mr. Hubert. You saw him on Thursday night?
Mr. Paul. I saw him on Thursday night.
Mr. Hubert. There was a telephone call from Ruby to you at 9:32 on Wednesday night?
Mr. Paul. That’s when I worked straight through.
Mr. Hubert. Sir?
Mr. Paul. That’s when I worked straight through at the place.
Mr. Hubert. You worked straight through on that Wednesday night?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did he call you then at 9:32?
Mr. Paul. I guess. He called me all the time. He called me every night.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the nature of that call?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. He called you every night, you say?
Mr. Paul. Mostly every night—if I didn’t come around, he called.
Mr. Hubert. What did he call you for?
Mr. Paul. Just to tell me how business is or if I didn’t come around, he just wanted some questions answered about what he should do.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall a telephone call from him on Thursday night, November 21, at about 6:40 p.m.?
Mr. Paul. Maybe he did, but I told him I was going to be in.
Mr. Hubert. You told him you were coming in to Dallas?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you go in?
Mr. Paul. What?
Mr. Hubert. Did you go in to Dallas?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see him then?
Mr. Paul. Yes sir.
Mr. Hubert. What was the occasion of your seeing him, what did you do?
Mr. Paul. I always came in to Dallas when I went to the club.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember anything special about that night?
Mr. Paul. Nothing special—I think we went to eat.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you go?
Mr. Paul. I’m not sure whether it was the Egyptian Lounge or Delmonico’s.
Mr. Hubert. But you did have supper that night with Jack?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. And then you went back to the club?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Laurence Meyers?
Mr. Paul (no response).
Mr. Hubert. What was your answer, sir?
Mr. Paul. No, sir; I don’t think I do.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember seeing a man with Ruby or being introduced by Ruby to a man called Laurence Meyers from outside of Dallas? He was not from Texas at all. On that night he was with a young lady?
Mr. Paul. Jack introduced me to so many people I don’t know who, what, or when.
Mr. Hubert. The name Laurence Meyers means nothing to you?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember seeing a man with a rather younger girl as a companion on that night?
Mr. Paul. I don’t know the man—I can’t think I’ve seen him if I don’t know the man.
Mr. Hubert. Well, I know that you might not know his name but you might remember seeing a man in the company of a much younger girl?
Mr. Paul. I don’t recall it.
Mr. Hubert. Now, on Thursday night, the 21st, when you had dinner with Jack, did he discuss the President’s visit the next day?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Not at all?
Mr. Paul. Not at all.
Mr. Hubert. There was no conversation between you at all about the forthcoming visit, is that right?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know Hyman Ruby?
Mr. Paul. Who?
Mr. Hubert. Hyman Ruby or Rubenstein. I think his name is actually Rubenstein—Jack’s brother?
Mr. Paul. The one in Chicago?
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Mr. Paul. I met him one time.
Mr. Hubert. When was that?
Mr. Paul. He came over to the place of business.
Mr. Hubert. It was before the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. Paul. No; it was after the assassination.
Mr. Hubert. When?
Mr. Paul. It was after the assassination.
Mr. Hubert. Is that the first time you had ever met him?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. It would be wrong to say therefore that you might have met him on the Friday before the assassination of the President, that is to say, 1 week before—in Dallas?
Mr. Paul. One week before?
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Mr. Paul. Not that I know of.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Earl Norman?
Mr. Paul. Who?
Mr. Hubert. Earl Norman.
Mr. Paul. Earl Norman—yes.
Mr. Hubert. Was there a fight with Earl Norman that night, the week before the assassination?
Mr. Paul. He had a fight but I don’t know when—not a fight—he told him to leave the club.
Mr. Hubert. Who—Jack did?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. They didn’t pass any blows between them?
Mr. Paul. I don’t think so.
Mr. Hubert. You witnessed the thing?
Mr. Paul. I was there.
Mr. Hubert. And Hyman was not there?
Mr. Paul. Not that I know of.
Mr. Hubert. You’ve met Hyman only once in your life?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And that was after the assassination?
Mr. Paul. At the place of business. I know of that for sure because I never saw him before in my life.
Mr. Hubert. What was your general night off—usually?
Mr. Paul. The night off was Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday.
Mr. Hubert. Was it your night off on November 21 when you had dinner with Ruby?
Mr. Paul. Yes; it was my night off—Thursday.
Mr. Hubert. Were you at the Carousel on Tuesday, the 19th of November 1963?
Mr. Paul. I might have been. I can’t recall whether I was or not.
Mr. Hubert. Does it refresh your memory to ask you if you remember whether that was the occasion that Tammi True quit the Carousel there after some argument with Jack?
Mr. Paul. I know it was one of those days, but I can’t recall exactly what date.
Mr. Hubert. What happened, do you know?
Mr. Paul. Well, to tell the truth, I really don’t know. She said something and he said something and I wasn’t there at the time when it all happened.
Mr. Hubert. You came there later?
Mr. Paul. What?
Mr. Hubert. Did you come there later?
Mr. Paul. I came later—I think I did—I’m not sure. I wouldn’t be sure.
Mr. Hubert. Well, you saw Tammi True the night she had this trouble with Jack and quit or was fired or whatever it was?
Mr. Paul. Well, not actually—I didn’t actually see Tammi True because I wasn’t talking with her at that time.
Mr. Hubert. You mean there had been some difference between you?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And you were not on speaking terms?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How long did that last?
Mr. Paul. Well, it lasted about 3 or 4 weeks, and the first time she called me was when she saw it on TV that Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you had not spoken to Tammi True for about 3 or 4 weeks prior to November 24?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Was Friday your night off, at that time?
Mr. Paul. No; they never had a night off.
Mr. Hubert. What?
Mr. Paul. They worked 7 days.
Mr. Hubert. I’m not talking about them, I mean yourself?
Mr. Paul. What Friday?
Mr. Hubert. Friday the 21st, was that a night off? Was Friday normally a night off?
Mr. Paul. Friday wasn’t the 21st.
Mr. Hubert. The 22nd—was Friday normally your night off at that time?
Mr. Paul. No, sir; Friday was not my night off.
Mr. Hubert. It was not your night off?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. It was not at that time?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Well, on the night of the day that the President was shot, that’s Friday, November the 22nd, were you working?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. At the Bull Pen?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Until what time?
Mr. Paul. Until 12 o’clock. I got out of there about 12:30.
Mr. Hubert. You got out of there, you say, about 12:30?
Mr. Paul. About 12:30—yes.
Mr. Hubert. And went home?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, the records indicate that there was a call to you by Jack Ruby about 1:15 p.m. on Friday, November 22. Do you remember anything about that?
Mr. Paul. At 1 p.m. in the afternoon?
Mr. Hubert. Yes—1:15.
Mr. Paul. Yes; that’s when he told me about the President being shot.
Mr. Hubert. You didn’t know it prior to that time?
Mr. Paul. Well, I listened on the radio because everybody in the place was just standing there and I just put the radio on—they called me and told me that the President was shot, and just a little later, he called me too. He says—oh—I told you that before. It was a terrible thing.
Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you that he had gone to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did he mention to you that he had been at the Dallas Morning News that day, the day the President was shot?
Mr. Paul. I don’t really recall that he told me that.
Mr. Hubert. I think he called you again, according to the records, about 2:43 on Friday afternoon?
Mr. Paul. At home.
Mr. Hubert. You had left?
Mr. Paul. I had left the place—yes.
Mr. Hubert. The Bull Pen?
Mr. Paul. Yes; and I told him I was watching television.
Mr. Hubert. You told him that?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did he mention to you about closing the club then?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. Did he ask whether he should do it—did he ask you whether he should do it or did he tell you he was going to?
Mr. Paul. No; he didn’t tell me. He said, “I’m going to close down for 3 days, what are you going to do?” I said, “I’ve got to keep open, I’ve got a restaurant.” I told you that before.
Mr. Hubert. Did he mention calling Gruber—Marty Gruber?
Mr. Paul. He’s dead.
Mr. Hubert. Did he mention having called him at that time—he was dead at that time?
Mr. Paul. Yes—Marty Goble or Grable or something like that. He died in Chicago the night of the fight of the first—this and the champion fight—Marty Grable.
Mr. Hubert. Well, this is Gimble or Gruble?
Mr. Paul. Oh—Marty Gruble—I don’t know.
Mr. Hubert. Well, did he mention Marty Gruble or any person named Gruble?
Mr. Paul. No; I wouldn’t know who he is if he did.
Mr. Hubert. Well, that may be so, but what I want to know is whether he mentioned that name to you?
Mr. Paul. No; I don’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby mention to you on that Friday night or on that Friday afternoon in any of those calls that he was going to the synagogue that night?
Mr. Paul. I don’t recall whether it was that evening or late at night that he told me that he went to the synagogue.
Mr. Hubert. He didn’t invite you to go with him?
Mr. Paul. I don’t go to the synagogue.
Mr. Hubert. I know, but did he invite you to go with him?
Mr. Paul. No; he knows I’ll be working.
Mr. Hubert. He called you about 8:40 that evening, didn’t he?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You were working then?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You had just gone back to work?
Mr. Paul. No—yes, I came back to work. I come back to work at 5 o’clock.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what the nature of that call was, that’s on Friday night?
Mr. Paul. That’s when he told me he was going to close it down for 3 days.
Mr. Hubert. Well, I thought he had mentioned that to you in the call during the afternoon?
Mr. Paul. No; in the afternoon he didn’t mention about closing it down, but that night—early in the evening, I think, is when he told me he was going to close it down. I think it was when he called me at 6 o’clock that evening, when I first came back to the place.
Mr. Hubert. Well, apparently there were three calls on Friday, is that correct? There was one right after the President was shot and one at about 2:45 or a quarter to 3, and then another one later?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember there were three calls?
Mr. Paul. I remember five calls.
Mr. Hubert. On Saturday?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. When were the other two?
Mr. Paul. He called me at home.
Mr. Hubert. What time were the other two?
Mr. Paul. About a quarter to 11 and I told him I wasn’t feeling well, and——
Mr. Hubert. What did he want you to do?
Mr. Paul. Nothing—he just told me that he was over at his sister’s house and he went to the synagogue.
Mr. Hubert. And you were at home at that time?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And he called you once more?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. And what time was that?
Mr. Paul. Oh, about 11:30 or about—about 12 o’clock, maybe a quarter of 12, and I was in bed and I told him he woke me up, and he was telling me that nobody downtown did any business on account of that, and I said to him, “Jack, I’m sick. Please don’t call me no more.”
Mr. Hubert. Was he rather sore at you because you kept your place open?
Mr. Paul. Not especially. I don’t think so. I didn’t see him after that.
Mr. Hubert. Did he mention to you that he had gone to the Pago Club, in any of those calls at all?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. He never mentioned that to you whatsoever?
Mr. Paul. No; he never mentioned it to me. If I’m not with him, he don’t tell me where he goes.
Mr. Hubert. Did he ever tell you that he had been to the police department on Friday night and had been up in the showup room and so forth?
Mr. Paul. No; but he told me that he brought some coffee over, I think, Saturday night, to the KLIF diskjockeys in the conversation.
Mr. Hubert. Did he ever talk to you about the Bernard Weissman advertisement that he was so upset about?
Mr. Paul. Yes; he mentioned that in the paper and he said he was going to ride up on the expressway and see it.
Mr. Hubert. When did he say that to you?
Mr. Paul. I don’t recall whether it was Friday night or Saturday night.
Mr. Hubert. But it was nighttime?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall his saying to you that his sister, Eva, was crying?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. When did he say that?
Mr. Paul. Saturday night.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see Tammi True during that weekend of November 22, 23, and 24?
Mr. Paul. No, sir; the first time I saw Tammi was the 24th and it was Sunday.
Mr. Hubert. You saw Tammi, Sunday?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. But you did not speak to her or see her prior to that time for 4 weeks?
Mr. Paul. No; the 24th was Sunday.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you see her and under what circumstances?
Mr. Paul. On Sunday?
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Mr. Paul. She came over to the place.
Mr. Hubert. That’s the Bull Pen?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. That was after Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mr. Paul. Yes. She was the first one to call me and tell me.
Mr. Hubert. You were at the Bull Pen all day Friday except when you went home?
Mr. Paul. When I went home in the afternoon.
Mr. Hubert. And on Saturday too?
Mr. Paul. When I went home in the afternoon and came back at 5 and stayed until 10.
Mr. Hubert. That was on Saturday?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I want to get into the calls from Ruby on Saturday night—there were quite a number of them, as I recall it. Do you remember when the first one was and where did you get it?
Mr. Paul. The first call was at the Bull Pen.
Mr. Hubert. And he called you?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. And where was he, did he say?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Could you gather from the nature of the conversation, from what he said, as to where he might have been?
Mr. Paul. No—I think he said—the only thing I think he said was that he went to synagogue, and whether he said it then or he said it later, I don’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. Did he say anything to you about doing something to Oswald and getting a gun or anything like that?
Mr. Paul. No, sir; no sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did he mention anything about a gun at all to you on any of those phone calls?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know a person by the name of Wanda Helmick or Elwick?
Mr. Paul. Maybe I do, but I can’t recall the name.
Mr. Hubert. Have you ever told anybody that Ruby told you that he was going to get a gun and shoot Oswald?
Mr. Paul. How could I tell anybody if he didn’t tell me?
Mr. Hubert. I’m not asking you that—I’m asking you if he did tell you?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. And you never repeated that to anybody?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You never said that to anyone?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby at anytime indicate that he was going to take some action or that some action should be taken by someone with regard to Oswald?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall talking to Ruby about a gun?
Mr. Paul. I never even talked to Ruby about Oswald.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t know who Wanda Helmick is?
Mr. Paul. Maybe I do, but I don’t recall who she is.
Mr. Hubert. But the name doesn’t mean anything to you?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever have any conversation with Ruby where you told him, “I don’t do such a crazy thing”?
Mr. Paul. Do I remember the conversation?
Mr. Hubert. Yes?
Mr. Paul. I never told him that.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall on Sunday morning having made any statement to anybody concerning a conversation which you had had with Ruby in which Ruby had made some threats about Oswald and talked about a gun and you had told him not to be crazy and not to do such a thing, and so forth?
Mr. Paul. Now, the man never asked me about it—how could I have told him about it?
Mr. Hubert. Well, as I understand your answer, you never did make such a statement?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. And as I further understand your answer, he never mentioned to you any such thing at all?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. The records show that you spoke to him again at 11:18 p.m., that’s at night?
Mr. Paul. That’s the time—that’s what I told you. That’s the last time I talked to him.
Mr. Hubert. That shows that there were two phone calls?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. One at 10:44?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. That one lasted about 9 minutes?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. And the second one at 11:18, or about a half hour afterwards, roughly?
Mr. Paul. Yeah.
Mr. Hubert. And that one lasted 1 minute?
Mr. Paul. That’s right. I told him I was sick and I was going to bed and not to call me.
Mr. Hubert. And he called you at your house a little later, didn’t he?
Mr. Paul. Both times at the house. That’s the last two calls.
Mr. Hubert. Well, he called you twice at the Bull Pen?
Mr. Paul. Yeah; the second time he called, they told him I went home.
Mr. Hubert. And then he called you at your house?
Mr. Paul. Yeah.
Mr. Hubert. And he spoke to you 3 minutes, and that’s when you told him you were sick?
Mr. Paul. The last time—when you said the minute—that’s when I told him I was sick.
Mr. Hubert. At 11:36?
Mr. Paul. I guess so—I guess that was the last time—I didn’t watch the clock.
Mr. Hubert. Did he call you after that?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. How many calls did you get at home from him?
Mr. Paul. Two.
Mr. Hubert. Now, the records seem to indicate three—one at 11:19 which lasted 3 minutes, and another one 15 minutes later, at 11:30, which was for 2 minutes. The records also show that at 11:18 he called you for 1 minute. He called you for 1 minute at the Bull Pen and that’s when they probably told him you had gone home, so he immediately placed a call 1 minute later, you see, and spoke to you at your home for 3 minutes, and then 15 minutes later he called you again, and you spoke to him for 2 minutes, and then at 11:47 he called again and spoke to you for 1 minute. Do you remember the third call?
Mr. Paul. If he called, I must have been asleep, because I don’t know that he called the third time.
Mr. Hubert. Did anybody answer the phone and say you were not there or were asleep?
Mr. Paul. No, sir; I was asleep. I really remember two calls. If he made three calls, I don’t recall it.
Mr. Hubert. In any of the calls he made to you on Saturday night, did he mention the name Breck Wall to you?
Mr. Paul. No, but I know Breck Wall, but he never mentioned Breck Wall.
Mr. Hubert. Did he mention that he had called Breck Wall that same night and as a matter of fact, within minutes of having called you?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. He did not mention anything about Breck Wall at all?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you that he had called Breck Wall up at Galveston and spoken to him on long distance?
Mr. Paul. I don’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall what the conversations were about?
Mr. Paul. With who?
Mr. Hubert. Ruby.
Mr. Paul. With who?
Mr. Hubert. What were your conversations about with Ruby?
Mr. Paul. He told me that he was riding all over town and nobody was doing any business and the Colony Club and Theatre Lounge wasn’t doing any business, and he told me probably then that he went to the synagogue and his sister was crying while he was there. That’s the time he was at his sister’s house.
Mr. Hubert. That was just after you had gotten home from the Bull Pen?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Then he called you 15 minutes later. What was that about? He spoke to you about 2 minutes?
Mr. Paul. I don’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. Isn’t that the time you told him to leave you alone, that you were sick?
Mr. Paul. The last time I told him that. When he called me the last time I told him that. I think I told him to leave me alone, that I was sick. I told him I took some hot tea and lemon and went to bed.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t recall a third call?
Mr. Paul. I don’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. And you don’t recall his mentioning Breck Wall whatsoever?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I think that on Sunday after Ruby shot Oswald, you called Tom Howard, is that correct?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you make that call from?
Mr. Paul. The Bull Pen.
Mr. Hubert. Did you make an appointment to see him?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know who answered the phone on the Jackson call on Sunday?
Mr. Paul. The Jackson call?
Mr. Hubert. Yes; do you know a man named Jackson?
Mr. Paul. He works for me.
Mr. Hubert. Did he call you on Sunday?
Mr. Paul. Who?
Mr. Hubert. Jackson?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Was there a girl who answered the phone?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is she?
Mr. Paul. She was a waitress at the place.
Mr. Hubert. What is her name and address?
Mr. Paul. She isn’t there any more, but let me think of her name—Bonnie.
Mr. Hubert. Bonnie—and her last name?
Mr. Paul. I can’t recall it—I can’t think of her last name right offhand.
Mr. Hubert. Her nickname was Bonnie?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Would you have any payroll records that would show what her full name was?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Are they still available?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Lee Berry?
Mr. Paul. Lee Barrett?
Mr. Hubert. Berry [spelling] B-e-r-r-y?
Mr. Paul. Lee Berry—that’s my sister.
Mr. Hubert. Oh, it’s a lady?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. And did you call her Sunday morning just before 12 o’clock.
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir; I call her every other Sunday.
Mr. Hubert. Was that before you knew about Ruby shooting Oswald or afterwards?
Mr. Paul. I think it was before. I’m not too sure, though. The difference in time, you see, I can’t recall when I called her.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember speaking to Ruby on Sunday morning at all?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you call his apartment?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Whom did you speak to?
Mr. Paul. Nobody.
Mr. Hubert. There was no answer?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. What time was it?
Mr. Paul. Right after the assassination of Oswald. I was telling Tammi I couldn’t believe it. I said, “I’ll call the house and I’ll call you back.”
Mr. Hubert. In other words, she called you and told you it was Ruby and then you called Ruby and you got no answer?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. I think you told us before in a prior deposition that you had gone to see Tom Howard?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. On Sunday morning or rather Sunday afternoon right after the shooting?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. I think Tammi True took you there?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, isn’t it a fact that you thought that the Dallas police and the people investigating the whole thing might want to talk to you?
Mr. Paul. I didn’t have an inkling at that time whether they would or not. What I was thinking about was the press.
Mr. Hubert. How do you mean?
Mr. Paul. Well, I came back to the place and the girl said, “Somebody from the press was looking for you.”
Mr. Hubert. Well, didn’t it occur to you that the police might also want to interview you if the press did?
Mr. Paul. That day? Then and there that day?
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Mr. Paul. Well, I wasn’t thinking about it at all.
Mr. Hubert. Well, are you saying then that the reason why you went to the theater and so forth and weren’t available was on account of the press?
Mr. Paul. Yes; for the press.
Mr. Hubert. And it was not on account of the police?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. But weren’t you told at one time that the police and the FBI were looking for you?
Mr. Paul. I was told the FBI was looking for me.
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Mr. Paul. And the reason I didn’t want to appear right away was because of what they did to—what’s his name—that lived with Jack.
Mr. Hubert. George Senator?
Mr. Paul. George Senator—they put him in jail.
Mr. Hubert. When did you find that out?
Mr. Paul. When I got to town, the same day.
Mr. Hubert. So, really what you were doing in addition to avoiding the press, you wanted to avoid being arrested and you thought you might be?
Mr. Paul. Well, I thought that after what they did to George Senator, that they might do the same thing to me.
Mr. Hubert. Well, I can understand your thinking, but is it fair then to state that what you were doing was making yourself unavailable to the police as well as unavailable to the press?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. That is, your motivations for not being available were twofold: You didn’t want to see the press, you wanted to avoid the press, and you also wanted to avoid the police because you were worried that they might put you in jail?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. And it’s for that reason that you went to the theater, is that right?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And finally, of course, I believe it was one of your friends then that insisted that you should allow yourself to be interviewed by the FBI, and that finally that occurred about 9 o’clock at night?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How did you learn that Senator had been arrested?
Mr. Paul. I was over at his office—Tom Howard’s office.
Mr. Hubert. And he told you so?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And you thought that your connection with Ruby was close enough that you might be arrested too?
Mr. Paul. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby mention the AGVA to you at anytime during these conversations?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. You know what that is?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did he mention the Weinsteins and the trouble he was having with them?
Mr. Paul. That was all the time before.
Mr. Hubert. Which time before?
Mr. Paul. Many weeks before—he was having trouble with Weinstein.
Mr. Hubert. But I mean, did he speak to you about it during any of these conversations on Friday or Saturday?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. He did not?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did he talk about Oswald at all?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. He never mentioned his name?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Once again, did you ever tell Ruby some such words as, “You’re crazy,” when he spoke to you on Saturday about doing something?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I don’t mean that you used that exact phrase, “You’re crazy,” but some such phrase to indicate to him your disapproval of what he was suggesting?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you know of course, Karen Bennett. You have just identified her. Did you know Kathy Kay?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you know Harry Olsen?
Mr. Paul. The one that married her?
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. He was a member of the police department?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see any of those people between November 22 and November 24?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you talk to them during that time?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I understand you called Kathy Kay on the 25th?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What was the purpose of that?
Mr. Paul. I asked her if she wanted to come to work at the club.
Mr. Hubert. You decided to reopen the club?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is Pappy Dolson?
Mr. Paul. A booking agency.
Mr. Hubert. What was your contract with him for him to do?
Mr. Paul. To get the acts.
Mr. Hubert. To do what?
Mr. Paul. To get me entertainers.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know of a man by the name of A. L. Davis, that had something to do with the Playboy Club?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You never heard that name?
Mr. Paul. Not that I recall.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember speaking to Ruby or referring Ruby to anybody in connection with the Playboy Club?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know whether Ruby was interested in opening an operation similar to the Playboy Club operation?
Mr. Paul. He didn’t tell me nothing about it.
Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you about any new plans he had for a nightclub or a new nightclub?
Mr. Paul. Oh, that was a couple of months before when he took me to show me a place that was empty, and he says, “I’ve got an idea,” and I said to him, “You and your ideas!”
Mr. Hubert. Did you have any business dealings with your sister, Lee Berry?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Of what nature?
Mr. Paul. I loaned her some money.
Mr. Hubert. For a business?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And what sort of business?
Mr. Paul. She’s got a loan office in New Jersey.
Mr. Hubert. That’s where she lives?
Mr. Paul. No; she lives in New York.
Mr. Hubert. And she works in that loan office?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What is it called, do you know?
Mr. Paul. It’s a loan office in Lodi and it’s the Pleasant—I had her card—Pleasant Finance Co.
Mr. Hubert. Where is it located?
Mr. Paul. Lodi, N.J.—[spelling] L-o-d-i.
Mr. Hubert. What is the street address?
Mr. Paul. 25 Main Street.
Mr. Hubert. I think you’ve testified before concerning the loan of $15,000 to Ruby in connection with helping him with his income tax trouble?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Was that loan made as one loan?
Mr. Paul. No—a lot of loans.
Mr. Hubert. It was a buildup, as I remember?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Was that from the time of Joe Bonds and the Sky Club?
Mr. Paul. No; Joe Bonds had nothing to do with this thing.
Mr. Hubert. What was your connection with Joe Bonds?
Mr. Paul. He brought me down to Texas and went partners in this nightclub.
Mr. Hubert. And I think you’ve already testified about that?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. The loan to Ruby which eventually got up to $15,000 was not all in connection with income tax troubles, was it?
Mr. Paul. No; of course not.
Mr. Hubert. As I remember, we went through that before?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Mr. Paul, have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Have you ever been a member of the John Birch Society?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know how Ruby got hold of some literature that was found in his car relative to H. L. Hunt, who wrote it? Do you remember that?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did he ever mention anything to you about that?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Was he active in politics in any way?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did he ever campaign?
Mr. Paul. No—no campaigning.
Mr. Hubert. Did he distribute literature or engage in ward politics or precinct politics?
Mr. Paul. Jack had none.
Mr. Hubert. The answer is “No”?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. What was his attitude toward his religion, do you know?
Mr. Paul. He was very conscientious about it. You know, like I told you the first time that when his father died he went a year to the synagogue every week to pray.
Mr. Hubert. Did he read any books about Jewish people and the history of the Jewish people and so forth?
Mr. Paul. He might have, but I never recall seeing him.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see any books in his apartment or literature of that sort?
Mr. Paul. I don’t think Ruby had any books. I don’t think that Ruby read anything—well, he read papers. He read every newspaper that was in Dallas all the time.
Mr. Hubert. I want to show you two pictures that have been identified as Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin and ask you if you recognize the man who is represented in those two pictures.
Mr. Paul (examining instruments referred to). I don’t remember any of them—both of them—I don’t remember them at all. The face don’t even phase me.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you don’t recognize the face at all?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit, the one that was shot by Oswald?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. If I tell you now that these are pictures of J. D. Tippit, that still doesn’t refresh your memory as having seen them at all?
Mr. Paul. I might have seen them in the paper and didn’t even look close. [Examining instruments mentioned.]
Mr. Hubert. To your knowledge, you’ve never seen him?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you two other pictures that have been identified as follows: Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4. These are in the Deposition of Bruce Carlin of August 24, 1964, and ask you if you can identify the person whose picture appears in those exhibits?
Mr. Paul (examining instruments mentioned). No.
Mr. Hubert. Have you ever seen any man that looks like that?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I tell you now that these are pictures of Bernard Weissman—have you ever seen or met this man?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. The answer is “No”?
Mr. Paul. I don’t know a Bernard Weissman.
Mr. Hubert. What was that?
Mr. Paul. I don’t know anybody by the name of Bernard Weissman.
Mr. Hubert. And you have never seen this man?
Mr. Paul. Not that I can recall. When you’re at the club and you’re standing around or walking around and somebody comes in and introduces himself, and as he says his name it just flies out the window, but I’ll tell you, Jack had a good memory for names.
Mr. Hubert. But your answer to me is that so far as your memory serves you, you don’t recognize him as ever seeing this man, Bernard Weissman, who is in Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, right after you opened the club there and after Oswald was shot, did you have a man there who was sort of a cashier for you?
Mr. Paul. Yes; Leo Torti.
Mr. Hubert. What was his name?
Mr. Paul. Leo Torti—[spelling] T-o-r-t-i.
Mr. Hubert. Is he in Dallas?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know where he is?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. He’s a resident of Dallas, he lives there?
Mr. Paul. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. In your opinion, he’s still in Dallas?
Mr. Paul. I guess so.
Mr. Hubert. What business was he in, do you know?
Mr. Paul. Well, he was a salesman. I know, the last time I saw him was before Jack’s trial, and he was out of work.
Mr. Hubert. Did you pay for any part of Ruby’s defense of hiring lawyers and so forth?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You haven’t put up any money at all?
Mr. Paul (shaking his head for negative reply).
Mr. Hubert. The answer is “No”?
Mr. Paul. No.
Mr. Hubert. This Leo Torti, does he resemble in any way this man, Bernard Weissman, whose pictures appear in Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin?
Mr. Paul. No—not at all.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember talking to Ruby at all about the President’s visit?
Mr. Paul. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you tell anyone on Sunday about the number of calls that you had received from Jack Ruby on Saturday?
Mr. Paul. Yes; I told it to the people working at the place.
Mr. Hubert. That would be who?
Mr. Paul. Well, the Jacksons; the other girls that worked there.
Mr. Hubert. What was the occasion of your telling them that, why did you tell them that?
Mr. Paul. No occasion—I just said, “I spoke to him just last night a couple of times”—after the thing happened.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you spoke to them and told them that you had talked to Jack, but that was after you knew Jack had shot Oswald?
Mr. Paul. No—I told them that he called me on Saturday night a few times.
Mr. Hubert. But did you tell them that before you knew that Jack had shot Oswald or after?
Mr. Paul. After.
Mr. Hubert. All right, Mr. Paul. I don’t believe we have talked about anything today that has not been made a part of the record, is that correct, sir?
Mr. Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I certainly thank you for coming again, Mr. Paul.
Mr. Paul. Okay—my pleasure.