AN INTERVIEW IN THE ATLANTA CONSTITUTION ON THE "MORMON" FAITH,
With Ben. E. Rich, of
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
(From the Atlanta Constitution, March 26, 1899.)
The Mormon conference held in Atlanta during the past week was fairly well attended, and the elders were assigned to their new fields of labor, and have left the city in pairs. It is the policy of the Mormon church to send their elders out two by two, traveling without purse or scrip; they receive no remuneration, so far as earthly reward is concerned, for the labor performed in the missionary field. They are called from the farm, from the store and other avocations of life to go to the various parts of the earth and proclaim the gospel as they understand it; remaining from two to three years, or until they are honorably released to return to their homes.
Elder Ben. E. Rich is President of the Southern States Mission, and has charge of the elders traveling in the states of Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina and Georgia. He was present at the conference just closed, and gave The Constitution the following interview concerning the doctrines of the Mormon faith. We present the same to our readers, as Mormonism from a Mormon standpoint:
Reporter—"Mr. Rich, I understand you are an Elder in the Mormon Church. Why is it called by that name?"
Elder Ben. E. Rich—"I am an Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. That is its proper title, as recognized by all its members. The word 'Mormon' is taken from the Book of Mormon. It is the name of a prophet of God who lived on the American continent several hundred years ago, and who compiled and abridged the writings of other prophets who preceded him, and left his record, which was buried in a hill and was obtained by the Prophet Joseph Smith in this century and translated by him, through the gift and power of God."
"Oh, that I suppose is the Mormon Bible?"
"No, sir; the 'Mormon' Bible is the same as that which is received throughout Christendom, commonly known as the King James translation. We use no other Bible. The Book of Mormon is a record of the history and revelations of God to the people who formerly inhabited the Western Hemisphere, while the Bible records the history and revelations given upon the Eastern continent. They both run together and harmonize, being inspired with the same spirit, but they are separate and distinct, and the Book of Mormon is not called the Bible by the Latter Day Saints."
"Well, is not the Book of Mormon an addition to the Bible, and is it not in violation of the last chapter in the Bible, which says, 'If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book?'" (Rev. xxii: 18.)
"It is an addition to the Bible in one sense of the term, but not in the sense of the prohibition which you have cited. Man is forbidden to add to the words of the book which John the Beloved wrote by divine command, and is called the Apocalypse, or Book of Revelation. Compilers place that book last in the canon of scripture, but scholars state that the epistles of John were written later than the Revelation. Be that as it may, John himself must proclaim further revelation after writing the book, for he was told while in the vision, 'Thou must prophesy again before many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.' (Rev. x: 11.) There is no contradiction in this, because God, through His servants, or in any way He pleases, may reveal His will, give commandments and manifest light and truth. It is preposterous to think that God sealed up His own lips when He merely forbade man to add to what He reveals. That is a standing commandment, as it was embodied in the Mosaic law. 'Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it.' (Deut. iv: 2.) The common rendering of the words in the Book of Revelation when applied to the law given thousands of years before, would make all the prophets and apostles and Jesus Christ Himself transgressors of the commandment. It simply means that when God reveals anything, man shall not add to or take from that which He communicates."
"But, seeing that we have the word of God, the Bible, and Christian churches teaching what is in the Bible, what need is there of another church and another revelation?"
"The very fact that there are so many conflicting churches, all professing to establish their opposing creeds upon the Bible, is evidence of itself that something more is needed, to set mankind right on the doctrine of Christ and make the word of God plain to the common understanding. No two churches or religious organizations understand the Scriptures alike. Even preachers of the same denomination disagree as to the meaning of certain passages, and Christendom, so-called, is therefore a very Babel of confusion. 'God is not the author of confusion.'" (I. Cor. xiv: 33.)
"But, do you mean to say that the Book of Mormon will set these matters right and clear up all that is obscure in the Bible?"
"No, we do not make any such claim as that. The Book of Mormon merely discloses what was taught on this land centuries ago by divine commandment and revelation, as the Bible relates what was taught ages ago in Palestine, except that the Book of Mormon is very much plainer and couched in much simpler language. But it is valuable as casting light on the Jewish scriptures and in being the record of God's dealings with a large portion of the human family, who could not be reached by the prophets and apostles who ministered on the Eastern Hemisphere. It gives an account of a visit made by Jesus Christ after His resurrection, to the people on this land, and the establishment among them of His church, organized on the same pattern as the church in Palestine, with the same doctrines, ordinances, gifts and blessings. All this being made much more definite than it is in the Jewish scriptures, the Book of Mormon is therefore a great aid to the understanding of Christian truth. But we do not depend upon any book for the gospel which we preach or the order of the church to which we belong."
"Do you not, then, take your doctrines, authority and church discipline from either the Book of Mormon, or the Bible or both?"
"No, sir. Everything in our church organization, its principles, ordinances, authority and administrations, has been revealed directly from Heaven in the nineteenth century. We refer to the Bible and the Book of Mormon to show that our church and all pertaining to it are exactly similar to what Christ set up and organized when He was on earth in both hemispheres and that He is 'the same yesterday, today and forever.'"
"How is your church organized, and wherein does it differ from other Christian churches?"
"It is actually and really the Church of Jesus Christ, because it is organized under Christ's direct supervision and commandment, He having revealed Himself to Joseph Smith, the Prophet, and having continued to communicate the will of the Father by revelation down to the present time. The church is composed of persons who, having come to the years of accountability, have been led to believe in God the Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit, have repented of their sins and have been baptized or buried in water by immersion for the remission of sins, and have received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands of persons divinely authorized to administer in the name of Jesus Christ. They are entitled through faith and obedience to these ordinances to the enjoyment of all the gifts, manifestations, revelations, signs, healings and other blessings which belonged to the primitive Christian church, the members of which were called Saints. Those disciples of the Savior were called 'Christians' in derision by their enemies, just as the Latter Day Saints are nicknamed 'Mormons' in these times."
"But, do they really have these gifts, and were they not all done away with after the days of the apostles?"
"They do enjoy all those gifts and manifestations according to their faith and fidelity, the Lord, through His spirit dividing to every one severally as He wills." (See I Cor. xii.)
"If those gifts were done away after the days of the apostles it was because living faith had departed and a dead form had taken its place. In support of the 'done away' idea the words of Paul in I Corinthians xiii: 8, are quoted: 'Charity never faileth, but whether there be prophecies they shall fail, whether there be tongues they shall cease, whether there be knowledge it shall vanish away,' but they neglect to add verses 9 and 10, which are part of the Apostle's statement. He says: 'For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect is come then that which is in part shall be done away.' So then it is not until that which is perfect is come that these gifts are to be done away. To emphasize this the Apostle adds (xiii: 12): 'Now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known.' He follows this up by saying: 'Follow after charity and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that we may prophesy.' And again he says: 'Wherefore brethren covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues' (xiv: 1-39). That which is perfect is not yet come, unless it be perfect confusion, and instead of advancing toward the perfection of which the Apostle spoke, modern Christianity has lost the gifts which he exhorted them to desire and strive for. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints seeks after the gifts and enjoys them, and in that respect differs from orthodoxy, so-called Christianity."
"Is there any other difference between your church and others?"
"Yes, there is this essential difference—for one thing, the authority to preach and administer the ordinances of the gospel held by the early apostles and others has been restored and is now held by the apostles and elders and other ministers in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and that church has in it apostles, and prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, bishops, elders, deacons, and all the officers which we read about in the New Testament. (See I Corinthians xii: 28; Ephesians iv: 11-12; I Timothy iii: 1-8; Titus i: 5.)
"But did not Jesus give authority to all His ministers when He said, 'Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature?'"
"If you will read the chapter from which you quote, you will see that this authority given by the Savior was only to the eleven apostles—one of the twelve having betrayed Him—whom he had called and ordained for the work of the ministry and whom he afterwards endowed with power from on high. They had authority when so directed by the Holy Ghost to ordain others to assist them in the work of the ministry, but, as commanded in Hebrews v: 5, 'No man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God as was Aaron.' It is only by revelation and commandment of God that men are authorized to minister in His name. Modern ministers repudiate the doctrine of immediate revelation, and declare that there has been no divine communication by revelation since John received his vision on the island, Patmos. They, therefore, cut themselves off from divine authority and proclaim themselves man-made ministers, teaching by their own learning and destitute of that divine inspiration which is essential to an authorized minister of Christ. In this you will see a wide difference between the organization and authority of the 'Mormon' church and the churches of discordant Christendom."
"You say that the authority of the apostleship and ministry has been restored. That implies that it had been lost or taken away?"
"Certainly. The early apostles predicted an apostacy and departure from the true faith and the introduction of heresies by false teachers, and their prophecies were literally fulfilled. (See Acts xx: 29-30; Galatians i: 6-9; II. Thessalonians ii: 1-12; I. Timothy iv: 1-3; II. Timothy iii: 1-7; II. Peter ii: 1-3; Revelation xii: 1-6; Revelation xiv: 8.) After the apostles were slain and other men holding authority departed from the earth, darkness came in upon the churches, persecution had its influence in driving many persons into the beggarly elements of the world, paganism began to be mingled with the remnant of true Christianity, the Roman state, which had fought the church, became amalgamated with what was left of it, and priestly power foreign to the spirit of Christ was exalted, clothed with purple and fine linen, the ordinances were changed, the pure spirit of the gospel departed, human authority took the place of the divine, the apostacy became general and finally universal. Papal power held sway everywhere until the Reformation, when schisms and new theories divided Christendom, and sects have multiplied from that time until the present, none of the leaders of these movements claiming to have received revelations from God, but all giving their own interpretations to the dead letter of former divine communications, and thus while there have been hosts of good people and many learned and pious preachers, the authority of the apostleship and priesthood of the primitive Christian church has not been had among men, and so 'confusion worse confounded' has come upon the world, and heathen and professing Christian are alike, without divine authority."
"In what way do you claim this authority has been restored?"
"In the first place, the angel whom John saw in the vision, as recorded in Revelation xiv: 6-7, came to Joseph Smith and revealed 'the everlasting gospel to be preached to every nation, kindred, tongue and people.' The first principles of the Gospel are, faith in God, and in Jesus Christ His Son, repentance of all sin, baptism by immersion in water for the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Baptism and the laying on of hands, to be effectual, must be administered by divine authority. This having been withdrawn from the earth centuries ago, it could only be restored by divine communication. Therefore, in the next place, John the Baptist, who was beheaded after acting as the forerunner of Christ, was sent from heaven as the forerunner of Christ's second advent, and ordained Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (May 15, 1829), to the authority and priesthood which He held when on earth. They were thus commissioned to baptize each other. They could also preach repentance and baptize all who received their word, but they could not confirm them by the laying on of hands. Subsequently, however, they were visited by the apostles Peter, James and John, who were pillars of the early Christian church, holding the keys of the kingdom, and they ordained Joseph and Oliver to the Holy apostleship—the higher or Melchisedek priesthood, with power to confer the Holy Ghost upon baptized believers, and to usher in the last dispensation, 'the dispensation of the fullness of time,' spoken of in Ephesians i: 10.
"Under this authority the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was organized in the state of New York, April 6, 1830, six members conforming to the laws of the state in signing papers for its incorporation. The gospel was preached, repentant believers were baptized, the Holy Ghost was poured out upon them, the sick were healed, the heavens were opened, visions and dreams and divine manifestations, with the gift of tongues, interpretations, prophecy, wisdom, knowledge, discerning of spirits and numerous revelations, were the consequence, and the union thus promoted became a marvel to unbelievers. As the work progressed elders were ordained under the same authority who went out without purse and scrip, as did the servants of God of old, meeting with the same kind of success and the same sort of persecution. Thus the church was built up, and under divine direction was set in order on the same pattern as the church which Christ and His apostles organized in person."
"Will you explain the order of that organization as it now exists in your church?"
"Yes, sir. The apostleship is the highest office in the church. It holds the keys of the priesthood after the order of Melchisedek and includes all the lesser offices in the church. Three apostles stand at the head and are called the first presidency, that is to say one man is the president of the whole church, having the power and the right to receive revelations from God for its guidance and to regulate its affairs in all the world. He has two counselors, and this trinity is the highest presiding authority in the church on earth. Next are the twelve apostles, or special witnesses of Jesus Christ, holding authority to open the door of the gospel to all nations, and under the direction of the first presidency, to regulate its affairs in all nations. They have the same authority, power and spirit as the apostles of old and act in a similar capacity in the latter days. Next to them are the seventies, seventy elders ordained and appointed for the purpose are organized into a quorum or council, seven of their number being their presidents. There are a large number of these quorums of seventy in the church, each quorum having seven presidents of its own, but all being under the supervision of the first seven presidents of the seventies. They form an appendage to the apostleship and act under the direction of the twelve apostles, as missionaries in all the world. They are expected to be minute men and to go when called and preach the gospel, without salary or any earthly reward. The high priests are a body of church officers to minister in the organized branches of the church, as presiding officers or standing ministers among the saints, the elders who are not of the seventies are also standing ministers, appendages to the high priesthood and are organized into quorums, each numbering ninety-six and presided over by three of their number, a president and two counselors. All these orders which I have named are included in the higher or Melchisedek priesthood.
"Next in order come the priests after the order of Aaron, having authority to baptize, administer the Lord's supper, preach, teach, expound, exhort and invite all to come unto Christ; also to visit the members of the church and instruct them in church duties. Forty-eight of these priests form a quorum, presided over by three of their number. As appendages to their office, there are the teachers and the deacons. Twenty-four of the teachers form a quorum, presided over by three of the number. They are to watch over the church, see that there is no iniquity in it and assist the priests in their duties, but they cannot administer ordinances. Twelve deacons form a quorum, presided over by three of their number. Their duty is to attend to the smaller temporalities of the branches of the church where they reside. The offices of priest, teacher and deacon are in the lesser or Aaronic priesthood, the chief officer of which is the bishop. A bishop should be a lineal descendant of Aaron, but in the absence of such a descendant a high priest in the Melchisedek order may be set apart and appointed to act in that capacity.
"The church in Zion, that is, the place where saints are gathered, is organized in this way. Each settlement of the saints form a bishop's ward, over which a bishop and two counselors, who are also high priests set apart for that position, are appointed to take charge. They take care of the temporal affairs of the church in their ward, look after the poor, give advice to all that seek for it, and as high priest preside over public meetings and have the oversight of church affairs in their locality generally. They also form a spiritual court to hear charges against accused members and decide upon them after hearing evidence on both sides. In cases of dispute between church members which cannot be settled by the parties or with the aid of the visiting teachers, the bishopric try the case and render a decision which must be according to justice and equity. If either of the parties is dissatisfied an appeal can be taken to the high council of the stake of which the ward forms a part. Usually all the wards in a county are organized into what is called a stake of Zion. This is presided over by a high priest with two counselors appointed and set apart for the purpose. The high council which is also organized in each stake of Zion is composed of twelve high priests set apart to that office and with the stake presidency, forming a court of appeal, to which cases from the bishops' courts may be taken and where justice may be secured. They are also original tribunals for decisions in doctrines and discipline. The decisions of the high council are final, unless on revision by the first presidency error is discovered when the case may be remanded for a new trial. The benefits of these church tribunals are had without cost to any of the parties, all these church officers serving without remuneration.
"All the stakes of Zion are under the direction of the presidency of the church and are visited by them or by the apostles, and quarterly conferences are held in each of them for general instruction and for making such changes as many be necessary to their proper management. The officers named are also presented before the people in conference assembled for their votes, every member, male and female, having a voice in church affairs, and they vote upon the acceptance or rejection of those officers. At the general conferences, held semiannually, the first presidency, apostles and all leading officials of the church are also presented for the approval or disapproval of the body of the church.
"Outside of Zion each mission has a president who takes charge of all its affairs, and each branch of the mission has a branch president, amenable to a conference president, and he to the president of the mission, who also directs the labors of the traveling elders, missionaries sent to labor in the field. Thus the whole church is so organized that each officer has his defined place and sphere of authority and the whole system inspired by one spirit moves like a well regulated living body, the president or head of the whole church, who is a prophet, a seer and a revelator, directing it under divine authority and inspiration."
"What is the attitude of your church in regard to other Christian denominations?"
"It recognizes truth wherever it is found. It regards all human effort for the development and promulgation of truth as good and blessed of Deity. It recognizes the benefits which have come to mankind through the labors of good men and women everywhere, no matter what sect they belong to or what language they speak. But it has no affiliation with error. Truth and error will not combine. There can be but one Church of Jesus Christ, no matter how many branches it may have nor how many members. It is unreasonable and also unscriptural to say that the one living and true God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent, would establish a number of discordant contending religions. The good intentions, sincerity of motives and pious acts of men and women are no proof of themselves that they are divinely authorized. They are to be admired and respected for what they are, but this should not deceive any one as to what they are not. Heathendom as well as Christendom furnishes striking illustrations of purity of conduct and sincerity, but in neither instance does this prove correctness of principle or divinity in organization. Christ when on earth established but one church. All others were outside of its pale. It is the same today. There is only one true Church of Christ, and it is that which He Himself has established and which He recognizes and directs. All others are the institutions of men, to be valued for what they are worth, but not to be viewed as divinely established. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has no quarrel with any of them; it does not attempt to deprive them of any light they may have, but only endeavors to correct their errors and bring them into greater light, that they may receive greater blessings, with full and complete salvation in the kingdom of God."
"Is it necessary for preachers and members of other churches to be baptized anew in order to enter your church and be saved?"
"The voice of God is to all people, without exception, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and shall know that you have received the truth and that God and Jesus Christ His Son have manifested themselves in this age of the world, and can be approached as of old, and that the blessings and gifts enjoyed in former days may be had in their fulness in these days. This is the only way of salvation and in this church is the only divine authority to administer the ordinances of salvation. They who receive this gospel and endure unto the end will be saved; they who wilfully reject it will be condemned."
"Is it necessary that baptism should be administered by total immersion? Will not sprinkling or pouring water upon the candidate be sufficient?"
"Baptism means immersion. It is a burial in water and afterwards the coming forth into a new life. It is symbolical of death and the resurrection. Paul said: 'Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection' (Roman vi: 4-5). The believer becomes dead to sin by repentance; he is buried from the old life by baptism. Coming from the womb of water into the air, he is born of water. Through remission of sins given in baptism, but proceeding from the atonement, he is born of the water and is thus prepared as a new creature in Christ Jesus to receive the Holy Ghost and thus be born of the spirit. Jesus said when on earth, 'Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' (John iii: 5.) He set the example. He was baptized by John, His forerunner, in the river Jordan. When 'He came up straightway out of the water the heavens were opened and the spirit of God descended like a dove and lighted upon Him.' Thus He was born of the water and of the spirit and left us an example that we should follow in His steps. All other forms of baptism are inventions of men, and are not recognized of God; nor is this form, accepted of heaven unless administered by one who has the divine right to do so, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. The Lord accepts only such ordinances as are performed by His authority and according to His commandment."
"Would you baptize infants by immersion?"
"We would not baptize infants at all. That would be a mockery in the sight of God. Faith and repentance must precede baptism. Infants cannot believe and they have nothing to repent of. Jesus did not baptize little children, but laid His hands on them and blessed them, saying, 'Of such is the kingdom of heaven' (Matthew xix: 13-15). We give names to infants and bless them after this pattern, but do not baptize children until they come to years of accountability, are able to understand right from wrong, to believe in Christ and repent of their sins. We baptize no children less than eight years of age."
"If the world has been without divine authority, and the ordinances you speak of are necessary for salvation, do you mean to say that all the millions of good people who have died since the days of the early apostles and elders are lost?"
"No, we do not believe any such monstrous thing. I might ask you what has become of all the millions of good people in heathen lands, and other places where the name of Jesus Christ was never preached. We are told in Scripture that there is 'no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved' (Acts iv: 12). But I will answer you directly. God has revealed that the gospel of Jesus Christ will be preached to every creature. Those who do not hear it in this life, will hear it in the life to come. The idea that God's mercies extend only to the narrow sphere of this mortal life, is unworthy of Him whose 'tender mercies are over all His works,' and whose justice and mercy endure forever. When Jesus was put to death in the flesh, he was quickened by the spirit, and as the Scriptures tell us, 'He went and preached to the spirits in prison, which sometimes were disobedient when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the Ark was preparing' (I Peter iii: 18-20). This shows that spirits after they leave the body can be preached to and instructed. The purpose of this is shown by Peter in the fourth chapter, sixth verse. He says: 'For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.' Thus all mankind will have the opportunity of hearing the one true and everlasting gospel, either in the body or out of the body. It is the intelligent immortal entity in the body which receives or rejects light and truth and is the responsible being. It is no less a thinking, sentient, responsible person when out of the body than when clothed with mortality. The spirit can believe or disbelieve, repent or remain unregenerate, bow to the divine command or persist in rebellion. But the earthly ordinances belong to this material world, and therefore cannot be performed in spirit spheres. Yet Jesus declared, 'except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' Baptism, the laying on of hands and similar ceremonies must therefore be attended to by some one on earth for and in behalf of the dead. This is what the Apostle Paul referred to when teaching the Corinthians the doctrine of the resurrection. He asked: 'Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead' (I. Cor. xv: 29). It is clear from this that the Corinthian saints understood baptism for the dead better than the resurrection of the dead. We do not, however, depend on that Scripture or any other ancient writing for this doctrine. It has been revealed from heaven in these latter days, and everything pertaining to that sacred ordinance has been made known; and the temples which have been erected by the saints in Zion, at immense cost, have been reared with a special view to the solemnization of ordinances in behalf of the dead."
"But what will become of people who reject what you call the one only plan of salvation? Will they be doomed to eternal woe? Do you believe in everlasting punishment?"
"Everlasting punishment is God's punishment. That is to say, as God is eternal and His law is eternal, there is punishment eternally ready for the transgressor. But the justice and mercy of God are also eternal. Therefore as every man is to be judged according to his works (Rev. xx: 12), those who are worthy of many stripes will receive their measure of that eternal punishment, and those who are worthy only of a few stripes will receive but their portion. Some will be forgiven in this world through repentance and obedience, others in the next world, and some will have to pay the uttermost farthing. (Luke xii: 47-48; Matt, v: 26; I. Tim. v: 24; Matt, xii: 32; I. John v: 16.) They who sin against the Holy Ghost by denying it after having received it, who wilfully sin against light and truth and become fully possessed of the evil one so that they cannot repent, are 'sons of perdition' for whom there is no redemption. They are doomed with the devil and his angels forever. All the rest will be brought forth in the due time of the Lord in the ages to come and placed in some degree of happiness and glory."
"Do you believe then that there will be different degrees of glory in heaven?"
"I certainly do. Will not justice so determine? Is not every man to be judged according to his works? Would it be right for the good, the true, the just and the pure to reap no fruit from their tree of righteousness? Is not every soul better for the doing of that which is right, and the worse for the doing of that which is wrong, and will God be less fair and equitable than man? Have you not read what Paul says: 'There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars. For one star differeth from another star in glory; so also is the resurrection of the dead?' (I. Cor. xv: 41-42.) The glory of the sun, which is the celestial glory, is for those who receive the gospel, are baptized into Christ, remain faithful to the end, overcome all things, and therefore inherit all things, come forth in the first resurrection and are made kings and priests unto God and His Christ forever (Rev. xx: 4-6). They become like the Father and the Son, dwell in their presence and partake of their glory."
"What do you mean by that? How can man be like God? Is He not a spirit without form, immaterial and incomprehensible?"
"That is a dogma of spurious Christianity, mingled with vain philosophy. Jesus Christ was the express image of the Father. Man also is made in the image of the Father and the Son. Jesus Christ, after His resurrection, when he ascended to the Father, was in the same form and shape and appearance as when in mortality. Those who are in Christ are to be like him in every respect. (Heb. i: 3; I. John iii: 1-2; Phil, iii: 21.) God is a spirit; so also is man. (Job xxxii: 8.) But the Father is a person, just as the Son is, one being like the other in all respects. Jesus is a spirit, dwelling in a spiritual body; the Father is the same, but the Holy Spirit which proceeds from the Father and the Son permeates space and by it God is omnipresent. Our Father, the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is our Elder Brother, made us all after His own image and likeness (Gen. i: 27). It is strange that professing Christians who regard Jesus Christ as God and admit His personality, form and tangible shape, are horror-stricken when the Latter Day Saints declare that God the Father is a similar being, that statement being borne out by the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, though one in purpose, design and act, are separate and distinct personalities. The Son came from the Father, prayed to the Father, obeyed the Father, went back to the Father and sat at His right hand, and sent the Holy Spirit after He left the earth to be a Comforter to His disciples. Jesus prayed that all who believed on Him should become one, as He and the Father are one (John xvii: 20-21). This shows that the unity of the Godhead is not identity of person, as many believe, and it is clear to those who understand, that Our Heavenly Father is an individual, just as Christ is, and we shall all be when brought into their presence. We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, and expect to fully comprehend them all in the future and perfect state. This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent' (John xvii: 3)."
"You have spoken of the atonement of Christ for the sins of mankind, and yet you insist upon baptism for the remission of sins. How do you reconcile these two doctrines?"
"There is nothing in them at variance with each other. The atonement of Christ was for two purposes. First, for original sin, that is, the sin committed by our first parents in the garden of Eden; and second, for actual sins, that is, those committed by mankind individually. Atonement for the first is unconditional, for the second it is conditional. The posterity of Adam had nothing to do with the atonement for that sin. Its consequence was death, not only to Adam, but to all his descendants. The atonement will bring life to every creature of Adam's race. 'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.' (I. Cor. xv: 22.) 'The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (verse 45). Jesus said, 'Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth. They that have done good unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation' (John v: 28-29). This shows that although every one who died through Adam's fall will be raised from the dead through Christ's atonement, 'some will be raised to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt' (Daniel xii: 2). This is because the atonement for actual sins committed by mankind was made conditionally, that is, conditioned on their reception of Jesus Christ as their Savior, manifested by obedience to His Gospel. The righteous and the wicked will all be raised from the dead, but they will then all be judged according to their works. 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned' (Mark xvi: 16). Remission of sin comes through the atonement. 'Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin' Heb. ix: 22). But this remission is given in baptism preceded by repentance and faith. The first condition is faith in Christ, the second is repentance, the third is baptism. That baptism is for the remission of sins. (See Mark i: 4; Acts ii: 37-38; I. Pet. iii: 21.) That is why baptism is essential and why Jesus told Nicodemus: 'Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God' (John iii: 5). The baptized, repentant believer receives remission of sins, is a new creature and ready for the reception of the Holy Ghost or birth of the spirit. This, as I have explained to you, is conferred by the laying on of hands by men having divine authority. Thus you see remission of sins is through the atonement, but is given in baptism. And thus there is no discrepancy between the two doctrines."
"But how do you understand this scripture, and others to the same purport, 'God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life?' (John iii: 16.) Does not that show that belief in Christ is alone sufficient for salvation?"
"No, it does not, for verse 5 of the same chapter from which you quote makes birth of water and of the spirit essential. The key to this whole question is in the meaning of belief in Christ. Jesus said: 'He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also' (John xiv: 12). He also said: 'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.' Also he said: 'Every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man which built his house upon the sand' (Matthew vii: 21-27). 'Faith without works is dead, and it is only by works that faith is made manifest' (James ii: 17-26). Belief in Christ comprehends belief in His doctrine, manifested by obedience to His gospel. Any other kind of faith is spurious, dead and of no effect. Peter proclaimed Christ's gospel, being full of the Holy Ghost, and he taught the people first to believe in Christ, and when they showed faith and asked what they should do, he answered: 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost' (Acts ii: 37-38). If Peter had been a modern minister, he would have said in answer to the question, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do?'—as may be heard from almost every pulpit nowadays, 'Poor sinners, you can do nothing; Christ has done it all. Only believe and you shall be saved and heaven is yours forever.' But Peter taught Christ's gospel, which is a gospel of good works, proceeding from living faith. When Christ sent him and the other apostles to proclaim that gospel he said: 'Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you' (Matt, xxviii: 19-20).
"Paul is supposed to be the author of the doctrine of salvation by faith alone without works. But by reading his epistle to the Romans, which is quoted chiefly in that direction, it will be seen that it was the works of the law of Moses that Paul showed were insufficient, and that the first essential to salvation was faith in Christ, but not a dead faith; it was one that led to obedience, as Christ taught: 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God' (Matthew iv: 4). And that Paul believed in the efficacy of good works, Romans ii: 3-10, of which I shall quote but two verses: 'Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile. But glory, honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile.' There is nothing, in my opinion, so conducive to sin as the absurd and anti-Christian doctrine that mere belief in the atonement of Christ will absolve people of the grossest sins and crimes and fit them for the presence of Him who is pure and holy. It is a soul-destroying heresy, the invention of men and contrary to ancient as well as modern revelation."
"It is generally supposed that the Mormons have lax ideas of morality and peculiar marriage customs. What is the truth of these charges?''
"There are no people in the world who have stricter ideas and rules concerning morality than the Latter Day Saints have. Sexual relations outside of marriage are considered a deadly sin. Violations of chastity are viewed as next to murder in enormity. Chastity is enjoined upon both male and female. A young man should be as pure as a young woman. One has no more license than the other as to morals under Mormon teachings. We believe that the union of the sexes in marriage is essential to perfection. 'Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord' (I. Cor. xi: 11). The celestial kingdom where God and Christ dwell is a state of perfection. Those who enter into that glory will be perfect. Therefore we believe in celestial marriage, which is eternal marriage—the marriage that was solemnized between Adam and Eve by the Almighty in the Garden of Eden. They were immortal beings. Death had not entered into the world. There was no sin, therefore there was no death. The immortal pair were made one flesh. No man could put them asunder. That was an eternal union. If they were separated by death, which was the wages of sin, they were reunited through the atonement of the Savior, and thus restored to their former condition. So, in the resurrection they will not be married or given in marriage, for they were united in celestial marriage before they became mortal. The Lord has revealed in this age of the world that order of celestial or eternal marriage, so that what is sealed by it on earth is sealed in heaven, and remains in and after the resurrection. The husband will be restored to the wife and the wife to the husband, and together as one they will enter, if worthy, into the fulness of the glory of the Lord. If a man thus married should temporarily lose his wife by death, and should marry another by the same law, they would both be his in the world to come. Previous to the enactment of laws forbidding polygamy and punishing it as a crime, the church taught the doctrine of plural marriage, and to a small extent comparatively it was practiced under the most sacred covenants and obligations of chastity and purity. But since those laws, after much litigation and much suffering on the part of many persons, were declared constitutional by the supreme court of the United States the practice of marrying more than one wife, in violation of our laws, has ceased; the President of our church issued a Manifesto to this effect. No matter what may be preached or published to the contrary, what I say to you is the truth, which you can depend upon. Polygamous or plural marriages are forbidden by the constitution of the state of Utah and a penalty of $500 fine and five years imprisonment is imposed upon those who violate this provision. One of our doctrines is that we must obey the constitutional laws of the land. We, therefore, submit and leave the result with the Lord. But what God hath joined together, no man can put asunder. Therefore, marriages solemnized by His authority and commandment will continue, if the parties are faithful, in this world and in the world to come. But the parties are under solemn obligations to preserve themselves for each other only, and sexual crimes and immoralities are viewed by the Latter Day Saints with the utmost abhorrence."
"What about heaven and hell? Do you believe when people die they go either to heaven or to hell, or do you deny hell and disbelieve in a devil?"
"We believe in a personal Satan, as we believe in a personal Deity. The being who deceived Eve and tempted Jesus is a fallen spirit, the embodiment of the principle of evil as God is the embodiment of all that is good. A principle in the abstract is of no force or effect. There must be some being through which it is manifest. We do not believe in the mythological evil one with horns and hoofs, nor in a literal bottomless pit of fire and brimstone. But we believe that there are many evil spirits who, under that being called the devil and Satan, tempt human beings and lead them astray if possible, and who are enemies to Christ and to the truth. They will eventually be banished from this earth when Christ's work of salvation is made complete. Hell is a place and condition of torment, in which the suspense and remorse and anguish of soul of the wicked, waiting for judgment and not knowing what their fate will be, is as 'the worm that dieth not and the fire that is not quenched.' This they will endure as long as justice demands, and until they repent and turn to God and are perfectly willing to obey Him. When they are released, in future ages, their destiny will be as they have fixed it themselves by their own acts and according to the eternal principles of justice and mercy extended by the all-wise Judge, the eternal Father. We believe in heaven as a place and a condition. This earth, when it is redeemed and restored to its paradisaic state, will be a heaven. Sin, darkness, sorrow, pain and death will be banished from it. The righteous in their glorified, resurrected state will dwell upon it in everlasting peace and joy. After it has been purified with fire and made a new earth, righteousness will dwell in it. The thorn and the brier having departed, the fig tree and the myrtle tree will bloom and bear fruit in the place thereof. The enmity between man and brute will be no more. There will be nothing to hurt or destroy. The flowers of Eden will blossom, the tree of life will bear its glorious fruits, the river of life will flow forth from the throne of God; the globe itself will be as a sea of glass mingled with fire. Christ will dwell upon it as King; the Father will visit it and grace it with His presence. Everything that is upon it, above it, around it and beneath it will be sanctified, beautiful and glorified, and praise to God and the Lamb will ascend from every part and from every creature, Satan and his hosts will be vanquished, and Adam and his posterity will be redeemed from the curse and everything that hath breath will glorify the great Creator; every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father, and He will be all in all."