Afternoon Session
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Seidl.
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, Your Honors, if I understand correctly, Sir David has no objection to the calling of the witnesses Dr. Hans Bühler, Dr. Bilfinger, and Fräulein Kraffczyk.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. SEIDL: The second witness named by me is Dr. Von Burgsdorff, whose last appointment was that of Governor of Kraków. He is at present in the Moosburg Internment Camp, which means that he is close to Nuremberg.
The witness Dr. Von Burgsdorff is the only one of the nine governors whom I have named to the Court as a witness. Considering the importance of the position of the governors in the Government General and in view of the great difficulties which these governors had to overcome, it seems proper to me that the witness Dr. Von Burgsdorff should be heard personally by the Court and not by means of an interrogatory.
Is it necessary for me to read out the evidence material in detail now, or is it enough to refer to the application for evidence?
THE PRESIDENT: We have got it in writing, and we understand that, while Sir David suggests an affidavit, you want to insist upon his coming personally.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, Mr. President, since the Court approved the calling of this witness at an earlier date.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. SEIDL: The next witness is Reich Minister and Chief of the Reich Chancellery Dr. Lammers. This witness has already been approved for the Defendant Keitel, so that no further discussion is necessary.
The fourth witness is State Minister Dr. Meissner. With regard to the fact that this witness is called in connection with evidence for which the witness Dr. Lammers was also named, I should like to ask the Tribunal to allow an interrogatory unless this witness is called for another defendant and can appear in person.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, I did check that point as far as I could from my records, and I could not find that he was being called as a witness for any other defendant. And, as Dr. Seidl very fairly says in his first sentence, Dr. Meissner is named for the same evidence material as the witness Dr. Lammers. That is my point.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. SEIDL: The next witness is Dr. Max Meidinger, former Chief of the Chancellery of the Government General, who, like Dr. Von Burgsdorff, is in Moosburg. My written application shows that this witness held a very important appointment. He received all the correspondence of the administration of the Government General and is acquainted in particular with the substance, with suggestions and complaints addressed by the Defendant Dr. Frank to the central government authorities in Berlin, and in particular with the proposals which the Defendant Dr. Frank repeatedly made to the Führer himself.
The witness was likewise approved previously by the Tribunal, and I think that considering the vast knowledge of this witness—he worked in the Government General for several years—a personal hearing before this Court seems advisable.
THE PRESIDENT: You say he was approved. Was he not approved as one out of a group of which Frank was to choose three? There was a large group of witnesses.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, Mr. President. The witnesses Von Burgsdorff and Dr. Max Meidinger were chosen from this group. Those are the two witnesses who were selected from a group of 13.
THE PRESIDENT: Which was the other one?
DR. SEIDL: The other one was witness Number 2, Dr. Von Burgsdorff. Witness Number 6, whom I have named and whom I should like to have called in person, is the witness Hans Gassner. His last appointment was that of press chief of the Government General, and he is also in the Moosburg Internment Camp. He was named, along with some others, to give evidence that the Defendant Frank did not hear of the existence of the camp of Maidanek and the conditions prevailing there until 1944, and then only because the witness informed him of reports published by the foreign press.
The witness was also present—this is not stated in my application—when Dr. Frank told a press reporter that the forests of Poland would not be large enough to publish the death warrants. The witness will also be able to describe the interview in detail, to say what Frank meant by this remark, how he intended it to be understood, and what his reasons were for making the remark.
I may add that the Court likewise approved this witness at an earlier date. I may say also, generally speaking, that, according to the wishes of the Tribunal, my applications for evidence will only indicate the general lines on which the witnesses are to be questioned and that I have consciously refrained from formulating the separate questions which I intend to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, will you express your view about Number 6?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Your Lordship pleases, it seemed to the Prosecution that the second matter which Herr Gassner was desired to speak about, that the Defendant Frank learned from him only in 1944 about Maidanek, is really a matter about which no witness can be as satisfactory as the defendant himself. All the witness can say is, “I told the Defendant Frank about Maidanek, and it appeared to me that he did not know anything about it.” Well, that is not, in the view of the Prosecution, satisfactory evidence.
The Court will be able to judge from the Defendant Frank himself when he has been cross-examined on that point. If it is desired that that interview should be before the Court, the Prosecution submit that it could be adequately dealt with by an affidavit or an interrogatory. Apart from that, the grounds are entirely general and again could be covered by a written statement.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, the next one Sir David has already expressed his views on.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, Mr. President.
The next witness is Helene Kraffczyk, the defendant’s last secretary. If I understand correctly, there are no objections on the part of the Prosecution.
Witness Number 8 is General Von Epp, the last Reich Governor of Bavaria. He is at present in the internment camp at Oberursel. The statements to be made by this witness will be mainly concerned with the attitude of the Defendant Frank towards the concentration camps in 1933. As the witness is at present in the neighborhood of Frankfurt, I should be satisfied in this case with an interrogatory.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Sir David?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Your Lordship will see that General Ritter von Epp seems to cover the same incident as Dr. Stepp. I said that I would not object to Dr. Stepp, but if Dr. Seidl wishes an interrogatory on some specific points from General Ritter von Epp, I should not make any objections.
DR. SEIDL: The next witness, Number 9, is Dr. Rudolf Bilfinger, late Oberregierungsrat and SS Obersturmbannführer in the Reich Security Main Office. This witness is already here in Nuremberg. The Prosecution apparently has no objection to the hearing of this witness.
The next witness, Number 10. . .
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: [Interposing] My Lord, I would just like to say one word about Dr. Bilfinger. I want the Tribunal to understand what the Prosecution have in mind. The general plan for these witnesses is to show from both ends the relationship between the Defendant Frank and the central agencies. The Prosecution thought that it was right that the defendant should be allowed to call two or three members of his own staff and a member from headquarters, who was in the position of Dr. Bilfinger, to give the other side of the picture. I just wanted the Tribunal to understand the plan on which we were working.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. SEIDL: Number 10 is Dr. Walter Stepp, former chief judge of the highest regional court of appeal in Munich. He is at present in the internment camp at Ludwigsburg. If I understand Sir David correctly, he has no objection to the calling of this witness.
I should be glad if in this case I could submit to the Court an affidavit which is in my possession, and which will prove the veracity of these points. The reading of this affidavit would only take a few minutes, if the Court would permit me to call another witness instead, or if it would withdraw its objection to my calling another witness. . .
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE; I have to ask for some notice as to who the other witness is. I was stating that I had no objection to Dr. Stepp, because he speaks as to the Defendant Frank’s position in relation to other people in Bavaria in earlier years. Of course I cannot speak on behalf of my colleagues and accept just another witness blindly until I know who the witness is and what he is going to say.
DR. SEIDL: The witness is Dr. Max Meidinger.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I want to be as reasonable as possible. The reason that I had objected to Dr. Meidinger was because, as the Tribunal will see under Number 7, it is stated that Fräulein Kraffczyk is called for positive facts for which the witness Dr. Meidinger has already been named. It seemed to me that the private secretary is probably the most useful witness, but I am afraid that I cannot help Dr. Seidl any further. I have put my view, but I shall not say anything further against him. I am afraid that is as far as I can go on that point.
DR. SEIDL: The next witness, Number 11, is Von dem Bach-Zelewski, SS Obergruppenführer and general of the Waffen-SS, who has already been heard by this Tribunal as a witness for the Prosecution. The Court has already at an earlier date granted permission for an interrogatory. In the meantime I have spoken to the witness. He has made an affidavit, which I shall submit instead of calling him in person.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I should have thought that it would be most convenient if the witness Von dem Bach-Zelewski came back, and then Dr. Seidl could put any affidavit to him if he wanted. We might want to re-examine on the point. I do not know what is in the affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Was he cross-examined by Dr. Seidl?
DR. SEIDL: When the witness was heard here I had no opportunity to cross-examine him, and for that reason. . .
THE PRESIDENT: Why did you have no opportunity to cross-examine him?
DR. SEIDL: Because I did not know beforehand that he would be called by the Prosecution as a witness and had no opportunity to speak to the Defendant Frank about the questions which might have been put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will consider whether the witness ought to be recalled for cross-examination or whether you will be allowed to call him yourself. The affidavit which you say he has made, has that been submitted to the Prosecution?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have not seen it, My Lord.
DR. SEIDL: No, Mr. President, my opinion on this point is the following. . .
THE PRESIDENT: When you saw Von dem Bach-Zelewski did you see him with a representative of the Prosecution?
DR. SEIDL: No, Mr. President, the General Secretary himself granted me permission to speak to the witness, and that was after the Court had already approved the use of an interrogatory.
THE PRESIDENT: But when the witness was called by the Prosecution and you had the opportunity of cross-examination, if you were not ready to cross-examine, you ought to have asked to cross-examine him at a later date. I mean if you were not able to cross-examine at that time, because you had not had any communication with the Defendant Frank on the subject, you ought to have asked to cross-examine at a later date.
DR. SEIDL: I could have made this application to the Court if I had thought that there was any reason for questioning the witness. I did not find out until later that the witness possessed any vital information relevant to Frank’s case.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal will consider the matter.
DR. SEIDL: May I perhaps add something to this point? The difficulty of a cross-examination is just this, that we do not learn of the intended calling of a witness by the Prosecution until the witness is led into the courtroom, and we do not know the subject of the evidence until the Prosecution start to examine the witness. It would have been much easier for us to cross-examine, if we had received information about the witnesses and the subjects of evidence as far in advance as the Prosecution—that is, as the Prosecution is informed about the witnesses for the Defense.
The next witness is witness Number 12, Von Palezieux. His last appointment was that of art expert in the Government General. In regard to this witness I should like to suggest that an interrogatory might be granted in this case too.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: If Dr. Seidl asks for an interrogatory, I have no objection. I just want to be clear that that is a written interrogatory. I do not want Dr. Seidl to be under a misapprehension.
THE PRESIDENT: You meant a written interrogatory, did you not, Dr. Seidl?
DR. SEIDL: Yes; I assume that in cases where a written interrogatory is admitted the submission of an affidavit is also admitted by the Court. The purpose is obviously to avoid bringing witnesses here and thus to save time.
The next witness is Number 13, Dr. Böpple. His last appointment was that of State Secretary in the administration of the Government General. He is now in the internment camp at Ludwigsburg near Stuttgart. This witness seems to me to be one of the most important because in the administration of the Government General he answered a number of questions which play an important part in the case against the Defendant Frank. I may refer to the details in my list of evidence and should like to add, above all, that this witness can give detailed information as to whether, during the 5 years of the Government General’s existence, the industrial equipment of the area was exploited or whether in 1943 and 1944, as a result of transfers from the Reich, the Government General did not possess a considerably greater industrial potential than before.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The Prosecution submit that, as is stated in the first sentence, Dr. Böpple is called for a number of facts of evidence for which Dr. Bühler has been already generally mentioned. Part of the evidence stated is the relationship with the Government General agencies, and the remainder, as to the happenings in the Government General, can be dealt with by the witness already agreed to by the Prosecution.
DR. SEIDL: It is correct that some of the things which Dr. Böpple is to confirm are also to be testified to by Bühler. But in my opinion it cannot be denied that the subject of evidence for which I have named this witness is so important that one witness might not be sufficient to convince the Court.
I should like furthermore to point out the following: The witness Bühler was chief of the administration of the Government General. He has already been interrogated many times by the Polish Delegation as well. There is a danger that proceedings may be instituted against this witness as well, on account of the importance of the position he held. It is self-evident that under these circumstances every conscientious Defense Counsel should take into account the fact that the witness may try to shield himself when he answers certain questions; and considering the importance of the evidence, it seems proper that, in these difficult circumstances, the Defendant Frank be granted additional witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, in your suggestion, did you include any of the other witnesses who were cumulative to Bühler?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I suggested an affidavit from Böpple and only Fräulein Kraffczyk on the general work of the Government General. The others, I think, are on the different points of the relationship with the central agencies.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see.
DR. SEIDL: The next witness is Number 14, President Struve, whose last appointment was that of chief of the main labor department of the Government General. In other words, he was Minister for Labor in the Government General. Since both the United States Prosecution and the Russian Prosecution have made grave charges against the Defendant Dr. Frank on this very point of the alleged compulsory transfer of workers, it seems to me proper that one witness at least—the competent official—should be examined on the facts presented by the Prosecution so that he can say what orders he received on the subject from the Government General. Information as to the location of this witness has also been obtained. He is in an internment camp near Paderborn.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I should suggest, My Lord, with great deference, that if Dr. Seidl would run through the other witnesses and show those to which he attaches special importance, it would be convenient for the Tribunal; and if Dr. Seidl would be good enough to say quite bluntly whether he attaches importance to any of the others or if he does not, then it might be possible for the Prosecution to reconsider the elimination of all these witnesses; but the position at the moment is that there are requests for all sections, all departments of the Government General, and the Prosecution failed to see how these are necessary. If Dr. Seidl would indicate any special purpose that he attaches to any of them, then one might come back and consider President Struve again; but the position at the moment is that the Prosecution do not see how it really helps the case of the Defendant Frank that each one of the departmental chiefs should be called.
DR. SEIDL: It is not the case that all the officers or rather holders of office, were named as witnesses. A good many others could have been named. For instance, I have already said that out of nine governors, each of whom was in charge of 3 to 3½ million people, I have named only one: the witness Von Burgsdorff.
I have also foregone witnesses whom I had previously named—for instance, the various military commanders. If, however, the Prosecution wishes to know which witnesses I consider of special importance, I shall give the numbers of these witnesses.
They are, besides State Secretary Dr. Bühler, witness Number 2, Von Burgsdorff; Lammers has already been approved; further, the witness Dr. Max Meidinger; the witness Gassner, Number 6; the witness Number 7, Helene Kraffczyk; the witness Number 9, Bilfinger—he was not a member of the administration of the Government General; members of the Government General; Numbers 13, 14, 15, and 19. That does not mean, however, that I am willing to forego the witnesses which I have not mentioned. Witness Number 15, President Dr. Naumann, is an important witness because he was the chief of the main department for food and agriculture and can give us detailed information about the Defendant Dr. Frank’s policy with regard to the feeding of the Polish and Ukrainian peoples and how he tried in particular, through the highest authorities of the Reich, to have the demands of the Reich reduced. The witness’ address was not known until now, but I understand that the chief Polish public prosecutor, Dr. Sawicki, is supposed to know where he is at present. The next witness is Number 16, President Ohlenbusch, who is called mainly to testify to the cultural policy pursued by the Defendant Frank in the Government General. He is not, however, one of our most important witnesses; and I imagine that in his case an interrogatory would suffice.
The same applies to witness Number 17. Witness Number 18 is Dr. Eisfeldt whose last appointment was head of the main department of forestry, and who will testify to the forestry policy of the defendant and especially—this seems to me an essential point—to the fact that there was so much trouble with the partisans in the Government General that it was in the interest of the Polish and Ukrainian people themselves to take strong measures against them. Witness Number 19 is President Lesacker, lately head of the main department of internal administration, whose last known place of residence was Bad Tölz. His present address may now have become known. Witness Number 20 is Professor Dr. Teitge, who, as my application shows, is to testify to the efforts made by the Defendant Dr. Frank in the field of public health.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, I have now had the advantage of hearing everything that Dr. Seidl has to say, and it seems to me that, so far as the witnesses from the Government General itself are concerned, the position is that Dr. Böpple, Number 13, does not add greatly to the general position which would be explained by Dr. Bühler and Dr. Von Burgsdorff and Fräulein Kraffczyk; that the witness Number 5, Dr. Meidinger, seems to deal with very much the same problems as President Struve, witness Number 14, and the witness Naumann, Number 15, and that, on reconsideration, I think the Prosecution would be prepared to agree that one of these witnesses, either Dr. Meidinger, or Dr. Struve, or Dr. Naumann, might well be called.
With regard to all the others, Dr. Ohlenbusch, Dr. Senkowsky, and Dr. Eisfeldt seem to speak about points that are really removed from the issues in this case, and Dr. Lesacker speaks on the general attitude of the defendant towards Poles and Ukrainians, which is covered by Dr. Bühler and Von Burgsdorff, and Meidinger, if he is granted; and the last witness, Teitge, seems again to speak on a really departmental point which is not a serious issue in the case. And, therefore, in trying to apply our own principle of recommending any witness where there is a real relevancy, the Prosecution would be prepared to go as far as I said in their recommendation, that, in addition to the witnesses that I have mentioned, they would suggest that either Dr. Meidinger or one of the witnesses Struve or Naumann should be called.
COL. POKROVSKY: I ask for permission to add a few words to that which has been said by my esteemed colleague, Sir David.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
COL. POKROVSKY: After listening very carefully to Dr. Seidl, I have come to the conclusion that we must ask you to take notice of our negative attitude towards a further summoning of the witness Von dem Bach-Zelewski. The Soviet Delegation fears that should the Tribunal deem it possible to grant Dr. Seidl’s application—which, to my mind, appears completely unfounded—then a very dangerous precedent would be created for the factual annulment of the basic decision already accepted by the Tribunal in this respect.
As far as I understand, the Tribunal are of opinion that every witness can and must be called once only for purpose of cross-interrogation. In reply to your question Dr. Seidl confirms that he was present here during the cross-examination by my colleague, Colonel Taylor, and myself. He saw and heard how the cross-examination was progressing. His reference to the fact that he did not have time enough to prepare for participation in this cross-examination appears to me unworthy of the slightest attention. He was in the same position as the rest of us. The Tribunal will remember that a number of the Defense Counsel participated in the cross-examination of the witness Von dem Bach-Zelewski. I see no reason why a different attitude should be adopted for Dr. Seidl’s sake and I do not see why, to gratify a wish of Dr. Seidl, which, to me, is completely incomprehensible, the basic decision of the Tribunal should be changed concerning the repeated calling of witnesses for cross-examination.
This is what I wanted to add to the words of my respected colleague, Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe.
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I do not believe that the desire to hear an important witness is incomprehensible in itself, if the cross-examination is rendered difficult for reasons over which we have no control. In the first place, I have only asked the Court for permission to submit an affidavit from this witness to the Tribunal. If now the affidavit is such. . .
THE PRESIDENT: Are you dealing with Number 20?
DR. SEIDL: No, Sir. I am speaking about the witness Von dem Bach-Zelewski.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider what you said about it.
DR. SEIDL: May I now begin with the list of documents?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, with regard to the documents, Dr. Seidl asks for the correspondence between the Governor General and the Reich Chancellery. I have just verified that we do not have the other part of the correspondence. Of course, if any of it comes into our possession, we will be only too pleased to give it to Dr. Seidl. We do not have it, and we also do not have the personal files of the Defendant Frank in the Reich Security Main Office. The same applies to that—that if we do get possession we will let Dr. Seidl know at once.
THE PRESIDENT: Have the Prosecution any objection to the other documents which are asked for?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I think that is all. The others are the diary. Dr. Seidl can comment on and call evidence as he desires as to the diary.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, very well. Now counsel for the Defendant Frick.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Your Honors, the first witness I have named is Dr. Lammers, who has, however, already been approved for the Defendant Keitel. I believe, therefore, that I need make no statement on this point.
As my second witness I have named the former State Secretary of the Ministry of the Interior, Dr. Stuckart. He is one of the State Secretaries of the Ministry of the Interior, and he is in custody in Nuremberg. He was chief of the central office.
THE PRESIDENT: Is Dr. Stuckart being asked for by the Defendant Keitel?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I think the explanation is that it was certainly thought that on the 9th of February this witness was to be so called by the Defendant Keitel, and on that basis he was approved in connection with the Defendant Frick. That is not directly my request to write it on the Defendant Keitel’s final list.
THE PRESIDENT: You have no objection to him?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have no objection to him, Your Lordship.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Mr. President, as witness Number 3 I have named General Daluege, who was formerly general of the Regular Police, and who is now in custody here in Nuremberg. He is informed especially about the attitude of the Defendant Frick to the anti-Jewish demonstration on 9 November 1938, and he also knows the relations between Frick and Himmler.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have no objection.
DR. PANNENBECKER: As witness Number 4 I have named Dr. Diels, who is now in an internment camp in the Hanover district. The witness was chief of the Gestapo in Prussia in 1933-1934. He is acquainted with the measures which the Defendant Frick, as Reich Minister of the Interior, decreed for the supervision of the provinces by the Reich, as well as about the concentration camps, and also, in particular, about measures taken in individual cases and about conditions in the camps.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I submit that this witness’ evidence should be taken in writing. With regard to the earlier part, the Tribunal will have the advantage of the Defendant Göring who was concerned especially with the practices of the police in Prussia in 1933 and 1934, and with regard to the other points, as to the measures of the Defendant Frick, these are either laws or orders or administrative measures, which could be included, in the submission of the Prosecution, as being dealt with by written testimony supplemented by testimony of the Defendant Frick himself.
DR. PANNENBECKER: I should like to say something to that. I believe that it would be more practical to hear the witness here before the Court. We can then have a talk with him beforehand and find out the points on which he has detailed information, whereas in an interrogatory these things could not be discussed in detail.
THE PRESIDENT: We will consider that.
DR. PANNENBECKER: As witness Number 5 I have named the former police commissioner, Gillhuber. Gillhuber accompanied the Defendant Frick on all his official trips as his police guard. He therefore knows what trips Frick made and can therefore testify that Frick never went to the Dachau Concentration Camp, which contradicts the testimony given here by the witness Dr. Blaha.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have no objection, of course, to the Defendant Frick’s dealing with that point. The only difficulty as to a witness of this sort is, I will say, the unfamiliarity with all of his travels, because if he is or was a bodyguard, he is almost certain to have periods of leave, and periods of interruption would occur. I should have thought that this could have been dealt with by affidavits, or an interrogatory, if necessary. When they are seen the matter could be reconsidered. But I would suggest at first stage the interrogatories, indicating in the witness’ own account how often he was with the Defendant Frick and what interruptions would be most frequent in that period; therefore, it is for the Court to decide.
DR. PANNENBECKER: I agree with that, Mr. President.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now dealing with the next point, I have a suggestion to make in regard to the witness—the next witness, Denson. The point, as I understand it there, is that the Witness Blaha said before the Tribunal that Frick had visited Dachau, that it was, however, his evidence at the Dachau trial that Frick did not come to Dachau. I should say the most satisfactory way in dealing with that is to get the shorthand notes of the Witness Blaha’s evidence at the Dachau trial and put in a certified copy.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Agreed. I believe also that these notes. . .
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Actually we have a certified copy of the shorthand notes of Blaha’s evidence here, and I also say in fairness to the witness that it does show he did say that at Dachau Frick visited the concentration camp, and I will show it to Dr. Pannenbecker whenever he likes.
DR. PANNENBECKER: As witness Number 7 I have named Dr. Messersmith. An affidavit from him has been read here by the Prosecution. An interrogatory has already been approved for this witness. We have not as yet received an answer. I should like for the time being to withhold the question as to whether a hearing of this witness in person seems necessary.
As an additional application I have also named the witness Dr. Gisevius.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I should submit that Dr. Gisevius’ evidence might also be reasonably dealt with directly in an affidavit in answer to interrogatories. He was consultant of the Reich Minister of the Interior under the Defendant Frick and supposedly went to Switzerland after 20 July 1944; he has exact knowledge of the responsibility and actual authority of the Defendant Frick to issue orders in police matters. I should think that such matters might be conveniently dealt with in an affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: What do you say, Dr. Pannenbecker?
DR. PANNENBECKER: I should like to say that the Witness Dr. Gisevius is also required as a witness by the Defendant Schacht, as far as I know, about the events of 20 July 1944. I believe that this witness will have to appear in person for the Defendant Schacht. It would also be better if the witness could be heard here in person for the Defendant Frick. In case of necessity an affidavit would suffice.
THE PRESIDENT: There is one other point about it. You asked earlier for the return of Colonel Ratke. I think that you were told you could have him or Stuckart. Will you now leave him out of your application because you have Stuckart?
DR. PANNENBECKER: No, it was like this. I had named three witnesses for Dr. Blaha—Gillhuber, Ratke, and a third. We dropped Ratke when I got Gillhuber.
May I speak about the document book here?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. PANNENBECKER: In order to give a general description of the Defendant Frick’s character, I asked permission to refer to two books. One of them is a small book, We Build the Third Reich, which contains speeches made by Frick. I intend merely to quote short excerpts from these speeches in the course of my presentation of evidence. As regards the other book, Inside Europe, by John Gunther, I want to read here, too, only a short excerpt, one sentence about Frick.
Then I have offered further evidence material on the question of whether Frick intervened by means of restrictive decrees against arbitrary measures in imposing protective custody and have based my observations mainly on documents originally submitted by the Prosecution but not read in court. These documents I have listed simply under Number 2a-c.
I have further asked for permission to refer to the files of the police department of the Ministry of the Interior, where restrictive decrees issued by the Defendant Frick in regard to protective custody are also to be found.
With reference to his intervention in individual cases, I request permission to read a letter written to me by the former Reichstag Deputy Wulle. I have listed it under Number 3. The Prosecution has submitted an affidavit by Seger, in which the latter declares that Frick, as chairman of the Committee for Foreign Affairs of the Reichstag, had made statements on putting political opponents into concentration camps as early as December 1932. In Number 4 I have asked for the stenographic records of the Foreign Affairs Committee to prove that such a statement was never recorded and never made.
Number 5 concerns the records of the Dachau trial in regard to the Blaha incident already discussed.
Number 6 concerns an affidavit by the Witness Dr. Stuckart, which he made for the American Prosecution on 21 September 1945. I could just as well ask this witness about these questions when he is heard in person; but it would shorten the hearing if I could read this affidavit, which was made for the Prosecution.
With regard to Frick’s position as Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia, I should like to submit the Prosecution’s Document Number 1368-PS, which contains details of the limitations imposed on the Defendant Frick’s powers as Reich Protector at the time of his appointment.
I have also made a supplementary application for Gisevius’ book, To the Bitter End. I learned of this book through an extract published in the Süddeutsche Zeitung on 26 February 1946 which gave interesting details of the Röhm Putsch of 30 June 1934. This extract states that for the events of 30 June 1934, police power was assumed by Hitler and transferred to Göring and Himmler. The book will give further details in precisely this field, since Gisevius was at that time expert for police matters in the Reich Ministry of the Interior. I request the Tribunal, therefore, to refer to this book, which is not yet in my hands, or to assist me to procure a copy.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I might say I do not think that there is much disagreement between Dr. Pannenbecker and the Prosecution. I might run through the documents asked for. In the book, We Build the Third Reich, if Dr. Pannenbecker will indicate the excerpts he is going to use, the Prosecution will have no objection to his quoting from them, and the same with regard to the quotations from Mr. Gunther’s book, Inside Europe. To Paragraph 2 of the Document 779-PS and the excerpt from a newspaper, the Document 775-PS—to these there are no objections. The files of the police division are not in the hands of the Prosecution. If we do get any of them, then we shall let Dr. Pannenbecker know. As far as the letter from the former representative Wulle is concerned, there is no objection to that. I have not seen any letter yet, but there is no objection to it in principle.
With regard to Number 4, I think there is some misunderstanding there. That is Document L-83. The affidavit of Seger is before the Tribunal as Exhibit Number USA-234, and the statement referred to by Seger was that the Defendant Frick said to him, “Don’t worry, when we are in power, we shall put all of you guys into concentration camps.” This was alleged in the affidavit as said by Frick to Seger during the course of a conversation. It is not alleged to have been said in the Foreign Affairs Committee.
Then Number 5—I say I have the shorthand notes, and it will be shown to Dr. Pannenbecker. As to Number 6, I understand that Dr. Stuckart is going to be called. Of course, the affidavit can be put to him and he can verify its truth. The Document 1336-PS will be put at the disposal of the Defense and they can make such use of it as they can. That covers the documents. As to Dr. Gisevius’ book, I understand that Dr. Pannenbecker has not a copy of that. Perhaps the Tribunal will see that a copy can be obtained for him. I do not know whether we have a copy. We will see what we can do and see that a copy is available.
DR. PANNENBECKER: As to Number 4, Dr. Seger, I still have a brief comment to make on Document 83. Perhaps an interrogatory could show whether or not Frick made the statement in question in his capacity as chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee—in other words whether or not that statement is in the stenographic minutes.
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I understood that it was not in the minutes.
It would not be in the minutes because Dr. Seger alleges that it was made during the course of a conversation, and not in that committee.
DR. PANNENBECKER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will continue tomorrow morning at 10 o’clock, if possible, with the further applications for witnesses and documents, which the Tribunal understand have been lodged on Friday evening.
[The Tribunal adjourned until 5 March 1946 at 1000 hours.]