Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremburg 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 08

by Various

Morning Session

THE PRESIDENT: I desire to announce a slight change in the order of business.

Dr. Stahmer has submitted a motion in writing, stating that he desired a little more time in the preparation of his documents and for other reasons would be grateful if the case of the Defendant Göring did not come on on Thursday, as announced.

The Tribunal realizes that the case of the first defendant to be heard may present some difficulties in getting the documents translated in time. As the Tribunal has announced that they would continue the hearing of the applications for witnesses until they are all completed, they will adhere to this decision. It is anticipated that this will give Dr. Stahmer one day more, but at the conclusion of the hearing of the applications for witnesses the case of the Defendant Göring will come on without further delay.

The Tribunal wishes to make it quite clear that no further applications for delay or postponement on the part of the defendants will be entertained, save in the most exceptional circumstances.

DR. SIEMERS: For the Defendant Raeder, I should like to apply first for a witness who will testify to the defendant’s character.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, if it would be convenient, I might first indicate the views of the Prosecution, and then Dr. Siemers can deal with this point.

The Prosecution has no objection to the following witnesses being called for oral testimony: Number 3, the retired Minister Severing; Number 5, Vice Admiral Schulte-Moenting; Number 6 has already been sought for and not objected to by the Prosecution—a witness for the Defendant Dönitz; Number 10, Admiral Boehm.

Then, with regard to the following witnesses the Prosecution suggest an affidavit as the suitable procedure: Number 2, Vice Admiral Lohmann. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean an affidavit or interrogatories?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, in this case I should prefer an affidavit, because it is only a history of past events that is involved.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Affidavit in which case?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: In the case of Number 2—Lohmann.

Then with regard to Number 4—that is Admiral Albrecht—his evidence covers the same ground as Number 5. It might be that interrogatories would be more convenient, but that would be a matter for my friends to decide.

Then the next, Number 7. That is Dr. Süchting, who is an engineer, and it is desired to have him speak about the Anglo-German Naval Treaty and technical questions. The Prosecution suggest an affidavit there, because apparently it is desired that he speak on technical matters.

Number 8, Field Marshal Von Blomberg, I am told, is still ill. I think that Dr. Siemers has already submitted questions and has received the answers. He ought to be dealt with by interrogatories. That is probably the easiest thing for the Field Marshal and the most suitable.

THE PRESIDENT: Was that not suggested in the case of one of the other defendants?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Von Blomberg, yes. I have a note that the Defense Counsel have submitted questions. I was not quite sure whether this was Dr. Siemers or another Defense counsel. I think it was Dr. Nelte, for Keitel.

THE PRESIDENT: I think so, yes. That is Number 8.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Then the next one, Von Weizsäcker, who was the Secretary of State at the Foreign Office. He is asked for with regard to the Athenia case. At the moment I cannot see the point for which the Defense want this gentleman, but I suggest that if they get an affidavit from Weizsäcker we should know what he can speak about.

Then the other one is Number 14, Colonel Soltmann. It is desired to give the results of the interrogation of certain British prisoners of war at Lillehammer. It would appear that the object was merely to give further evidence which would be cumulative to the statements in the German White Book, and therefore the Prosecution suggest an affidavit.

There are two witnesses that the Prosecution think are in the border line between admissibility and affidavits. They are really, in the submission of the Prosecution, not relevant witnesses, but the Tribunal might like to consider the question. These are Number 1, a naval chaplain who really speaks as to the general moral and religious outlook of the Defendant Raeder. That is, in the submission of the Prosecution, really irrelevant, and at the most it would be a matter for an affidavit. The position of the Prosecution is that it is really irrelevant, but it certainly should not be more than an affidavit, even if a different view was taken.

The other is Number 16, Admiral Schultze. He speaks as to an interview with the late Admiral Darlan, and the Prosecution submit that that is irrelevant; if there are any approaches to relevance—which the Prosecution have been unable to see—why then it could only be a matter for an affidavit.

The Prosecution submit that the following are unnecessary: Number 11. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, dealing with Number 16, would that not be more suitably dealt with by interrogatories? The Tribunal granted interrogatories on 9 February in that case, but I suppose they have not yet been produced.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Which one was that?

THE PRESIDENT: Number 16.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes. Well, if the Tribunal feel that it is a matter that should be explored, I agree that interrogatories would be suitable.

Then, My Lord, the ones that the Prosecution make objection to in toto are:

Number 11, Vice Admiral Bürckner, because he is cumulative to Numbers 5 and 10; Number 12, Commander Schreiber, because on 21 February Dr. Siemers said that he was willing not to call this witness if Number 5, Schulte-Moenting, was allowed; Number 13, Lackorn, who is a Norwegian merchant, who is supposed to speak of the Allied plans, without any means of knowledge being stated. This witness was temporarily given up on 21 February; Number 15, Alf Whist, who was Secretary of Commerce in the Quisling cabinet, as I understand the application. There is no indication why this witness should be competent to speak on the reputation of the Defendant Raeder; and Number 16 has been dealt with; Number 17 is Colonel Goldenberg, who was the interpreter at the meeting between the Defendant Raeder and Darlan. The Defendant Raeder gives evidence and Admiral Schultze answers an interrogatory. It will appear that that interview is well covered.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Siemers?

DR. SIEMERS: I thank Sir David for taking up the individual points, as a consequence of which I can, as I presume, count on the Tribunal’s approval of the points to which Sir David has agreed, without giving specific reasons.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that the best course would be for you to go through the ones upon which Sir David has not agreed as to being called as oral witnesses, and then perhaps it may be necessary to deal with the ones where he has agreed. I would begin in the order in which he took them up—2, 4, 7, 8, 9—if that is convenient for you.

In the case of Number 2 he suggested an affidavit.

DR. SIEMERS: Number 2 is the Vice Admiral Lohmann. In this connection I refer to the last page of my brief, where I have discussed the documents under “III.” There I have stated that I suggested to the British Delegation that we come to some agreement as to the figures with regard to the Treaty of Versailles and the Naval Treaty. The British Delegation has promised me that such an agreement may be possible and has in the meantime communicated with the British Admiralty in London on this matter. If, as I expect, an understanding is reached, I am agreeable to an affidavit from Vice Admiral Lohmann, for then he is to testify on only a few points. I ask, therefore, that he be approved for the time being, and I undertake not to call him if the agreement mentioned is reached with the Prosecution. If this understanding is not reached, the proof of some important figures would be very difficult, and I could not do without Lohmann who is well informed about the figures; otherwise, I could.

THE PRESIDENT: What do you say about that, Sir David?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have circulated Dr. Siemers’ note and request for agreement to my colleagues, and I have also sent it to the Admiralty, and I hope that we may be able to give the information and probably to agree on these matters, but I am waiting to get that confirmed from the Admiralty in Britain; so I think if we could leave over the question of this witness until I see if I can get an agreement which will satisfy Dr. Siemers on the point. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Then if you cannot make the agreement, probably the witness would have to be called?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Yes. I can let Dr. Siemers know whether there is any controversy on the point, whether I am going to challenge what he puts forward. If I am going to challenge it, obviously I should not object to the witness being called.

DR. SIEMERS: Under these circumstances, I shall be satisfied with the submission of an affidavit. I have written to Vice Admiral Lohmann, asking him to answer the other brief questions; and regarding the main points the principles just stated by Sir David will be adhered to.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. SIEMERS: Witness Number 4, Admiral Albrecht, was one of the closest collaborators of Grand Admiral Raeder. From 1926 to 1928 he was Raeder’s Chief of Staff in Kiel; from 1928 to 1930, chief of the Navy personnel office of the OKM. From then on he was commanding admiral in Kiel, and finally Navy Group Commander East in 1939.

I should like to remark in this connection that in this last year he also joined, upon the suggestion of the Security Group commander, this organization, and from this point of view also he appears important to me. Admiral Albrecht has also, as I know, written directly to the Tribunal for this reason.

Albrecht has known the Defendant Raeder so long that he is well acquainted with his main ideas and thus orientated on the main charges of the Indictment. He has known Raeder’s trend of thought since 1928, that is to say, from the time in which the charges against Raeder have their beginning. I ask that consideration be given to the tremendous charges which are brought against Raeder covering a period of 15 years. I cannot refute all the accusations with one or two witnesses. The differences among the testimonies are so great that in such a case one cannot speak of “cumulative.”

Furthermore I ask that note be taken of the fact that so far I have been unable to talk to Vice Admiral Schulte-Moenting, who has been approved by the Tribunal and the Prosecution.

The Tribunal has also not yet informed me where Schulte-Moenting is. I presume that he is in a prisoner-of-war camp in England, but I do not know whether he will really be at my disposal, and whether I will be able to talk with him in time.

THE PRESIDENT: You are dealing with Admiral Konrad Albrecht, are you not? You are dealing with Number 4?

DR. SIEMERS: No; regarding Admiral Albrecht, we know that he is in Hamburg. I simply pointed out that it would not be cumulative if both Albrecht and Schulte-Moenting are heard by the Court.

THE PRESIDENT: You see, what Sir David was suggesting was an interrogatory in the case of Admiral Albrecht and an affidavit in the case of Admiral Schulte-Moenting.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I will agree to Admiral Schulte-Moenting’s being called orally.

THE PRESIDENT: I beg your pardon. I was mixing the numbers. Yes, that is right, to call the one and have interrogatories from the other. Have you any objection to that?

DR. SIEMERS: Yes, I request that I be allowed to call both witnesses because Schulte-Moenting is to testify about a later period and Albrecht about the earlier period that was immediately subsequent to the Versailles Treaty. The position of both is entirely different. In addition, as I have just pointed out, the Tribunal has not yet informed me whether I can with absolute certainty count on the witness Schulte-Moenting, whether he has been found, whether it is known where he is.

THE PRESIDENT: Our information is that Schulte-Moenting has not been located.

DR. SIEMERS: I have no information as yet.

THE PRESIDENT: One moment. I am not sure that is right. Yes, he has been located in a prisoner-of-war camp in the United Kingdom. At least I think so.

Yes, I have a document before me here which shows that he is in a prisoner-of-war camp in the United Kingdom.

DR. SIEMERS: I thank you very much. I did not know that. Under the circumstances I am prepared, in regard to Admiral Albrecht, to accept an affidavit or an interrogatory, provided Schulte-Moenting really appears.

Number 7, Dr. Süchting. In this connection Sir David suggests an affidavit in order to speed up the Trial. I am satisfied with an affidavit.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Again, however, with the one reservation that the matter of the figures will be clarified between me and the British Prosecution, in accordance with my letter as already discussed in connection with Admiral Lohmann, I believe that Sir David is agreeable to this.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like to know how you suggest that these questions of shipbuilding in connection with the German-English Naval Agreements of 1935 and 1937 are relevant to any charge made here.

DR. SIEMERS: The Defendant Raeder is accused of not having adhered to the Treaty of Versailles and the Naval Agreement. Such a treaty violation is mainly a question of the building of ships. Consequently I must demonstrate what could be built according to the Treaty of Versailles and the Naval Agreement and what actually was built and what thoughts and orders the Navy had in this connection. As I said, however, I shall be satisfied with an affidavit.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Tribunal will consider the arguments on that.

DR. SIEMERS: Number 8, Field Marshal Von Blomberg. The Prosecution have suggested an affidavit or an interrogatory. In consideration of Von Blomberg’s state of health, I am agreeable to this for the sake of simplicity. Since it does not involve any great number of questions, I suggest an affidavit.

Number 9, Ambassador Baron Von Weizsäcker. I submitted the application on 6 February and do not know thus far the position of the Tribunal. At the time of the Athenia case Weizsäcker was State Secretary in the Reich Ministry for Foreign Affairs. At that time, in September 1939, Weizsäcker spoke with the American Ambassador on the subject of the Athenia. Weizsäcker spoke with Hitler and with Raeder. He knows the details and must be heard on these details. I do not believe that an affidavit will suffice. First let me remark that I do not know where Weizsäcker is. But aside from that, the charge which has been made against the Defendant Raeder in the case of the Athenia is morally so grave that, although otherwise it might not be such an important point, I have to put particular stress on this point.

The British Delegation has given particular emphasis to the case of the Athenia and has made insulting attacks on the defendant in connection with this case. In the interest of the absolutely irreproachable life of my client I feel obliged to clarify this case completely. That can only be done by Weizsäcker.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Siemers, as far as the application goes, there is nothing to show, beyond the position of the suggested witness, that he knew anything about it at all. Under these circumstances would not interrogatories be the most appropriate course? You did not show whether he knew anything about it at all. All you say in your application is that he was State Secretary in the Reich Ministry for Foreign Affairs.

DR. SIEMERS: I may point out that I stated in my application that the witness is informed regarding the events connected with the Athenia case.

THE PRESIDENT: You say that he must know on the basis of his position as State Secretary.

DR. SIEMERS: The American Ambassador approached Weizsäcker immediately after the Athenia case in order to clarify the case. Thereupon Weizsäcker spoke with Raeder; however, only after he had already told the American Ambassador that no German submarine was involved. The question as to whether a German submarine was involved in the Athenia case was settled only after the return of the German submarine. Prior to that the Defendant Raeder had not known of it either. The German submarine returned on 27 September; the sinking was on 3 September.

THE PRESIDENT: Did you state these facts about conversations between the American Ambassador and State Secretary Weizsäcker in one of your previous applications?

DR. SIEMERS: Yes, on 6 February I did submit the application, and also mentioned in general terms the Athenia case. I may add that Weizsäcker knows also the subsequent occurrences. Weizsäcker knows exactly that the Navy, and particularly the Defendant Raeder, had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the article which the Propaganda Ministry published in the newspapers. Weizsäcker was just as outraged about this article as was the Defendant Raeder. But it is precisely this that the Prosecution charges against Raeder.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal will consider what you say.

DR. SIEMERS: Let me add that I have made a mistake. I just heard that Weizsäcker is still at the Vatican in Rome; in other words, it is known where he is.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: Number 14, Colonel Soltmann. As far as I know, Colonel Soltmann will be requested as a witness also by the Defendant Jodl, and an affidavit or an interrogatory has already been sent to him. I therefore concur with Sir David that an affidavit from Soltmann will suffice, subject to the consent, or the applications of the Defense Counsel for General Jodl.

THE PRESIDENT: He does not appear to have been located yet.

DR. SIEMERS: Yes—the witness Soltmann? I have given his address in my application.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you?

DR. SIEMERS: It is Falkenberg near Moosach in Upper Bavaria.

Number 16, Admiral Schultze is in Hamburg, and it is an easy matter to have him testify personally here in Nuremberg. The Prosecution have accused the Defendant Raeder of participating in the National Socialist policy of conquest. This accusation is unfounded. Raeder, both in Norway and in France, constantly directed his efforts towards bringing about peace; in other words, not towards the effecting of any final conquest of the countries. In this Raeder found himself in a strong opposition to Hitler, and only after much urging did Raeder succeed in enabling himself to negotiate with Darlan in Paris concerning the possible conclusion of a peace. I believe that such a positive intervention for a quick termination of the war with France is important enough, in a trial like this, to have the witness testify personally. I cannot understand how Sir David, in view of his accusation, can say that this point is irrelevant. The Prosecution has constantly declared that the Defendant Raeder was agitating for war.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not believe that Sir David did say it was irrelevant. He suggested interrogatories.

DR. SIEMERS: I made a note that Sir David said the witness was irrelevant, but that he would, as a concession, agree to an affidavit.

THE PRESIDENT: Then I was wrong.

DR. SIEMERS: I simply wanted to make my position clear on the question as to whether or not this witness is irrelevant. I believe I have shown that he is relevant.

THE PRESIDENT: You want the witness? You would not agree to an affidavit or an interrogatory? Is that right?

DR. SIEMERS: I ask the Tribunal to hear Schultze as a witness here in Nuremberg, because, in my opinion in view of the principles of the Indictment, it is a vital point that Raeder’s attitude toward the entire problem is shown by facts prevailing at that time, and not by present assertions and statements.

I come now to the witness to whom Sir David has objected, witness Number 11, Admiral Bürckner. I asked for him on 31 January. So far I have received no answer. I asked to be allowed to speak to the witness Bürckner in order to acquaint myself with the details. The interview is denied me so long as he has not been approved as a witness. In order to speak with him therefore I am dependent on his being approved first as a witness. Should it then prove that this evidence is cumulative, I am willing to forego the witness. I presume that Sir David is agreeable to this.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, the Tribunal does not quite understand why the counsel should not have seen this officer who is in prison in Nuremberg, subject of course to security.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We have no objection to the counsel’s seeing Admiral Bürckner. I think up to now the Prosecution have always taken the view that what Dr. Siemers wanted to see him about was not relevant. I do not think the Tribunal has ruled on that.

THE PRESIDENT: The view of the Tribunal is that Counsel for the Defense ought to be in touch with the witnesses before, in order to see whether they are able to give relevant evidence or not. They cannot give the evidence or the relevancy of it unless they know what the witness is going to say.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No objection will be made, and Dr. Siemers can make arrangement, as far as the Prosecution are concerned, to see Admiral Bürckner at the earliest date he likes.

DR. SIEMERS: I am grateful to the Tribunal for clarifying this point. This point has made the work of the Defense Counsel extremely difficult. I have been waiting for more than a month to speak to Bürckner. For four weeks I have not been able to speak to Admiral Wagner for the same reason. I should like to speak to others also who are in the courthouse prison. They were all denied me because the Tribunal had not yet approved them as witnesses. I believe that the point is now clarified.

THE PRESIDENT: Go on, Dr. Siemers.

DR. SIEMERS: It is quite possible that, after speaking with the witness, I may not call him to the stand, particularly since I hear today that Schulte-Moenting can be called, and provided that Boehm is approved.

THE PRESIDENT: That who is approved?

DR. SIEMERS: Boehm, Number 10.

THE PRESIDENT: Oh, yes. That was Sir David’s only objection to Number 11, was it not, that it was cumulative to 5 and 10?

DR. SIEMERS: Number 12, Captain Schreiber. Sir David has rightly pointed out that I have already stated the possibility that I may give up this witness. This still stands. If the witness Schulte-Moenting and the witness Boehm actually appear, the witness Schreiber is not necessary.

Number 13, the witness Lackorn, in Leipzig. Before the occupation of Norway Lackorn was on business in Oslo. He had nothing to do with the military. It was purely by accident that he learned, in the Hotel Bristol in Oslo, that the landing of English troops was imminent. This point is important because one can only judge the defendant’s attitude toward the Norwegian undertaking if one considers the general situation of Norway. The general situation of Norway means, however, the relations of Norway with Germany, England, Sweden, and all the other countries adjacent to Norway. It is not proper, in such a decisive question, to state that only a small part is relevant. I am agreed, however, that the witness is not to be heard here. I have, therefore, while I was waiting for the decision of the Prosecution, written to the witness in order to obtain an affidavit. It is therefore agreeable to me if an affidavit only is submitted here. He need not be approved as a witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, you did not deal with that aspect of the matter, with an affidavit.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, My Lord, I am afraid the view of the Prosecution is that the story, which apparently started in the bar of a hotel in Oslo, is not evidence which is really admissible, relevant, or of any weight in a matter of this kind. That is the view we have taken throughout.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Siemers, it appears from the application which is before us that you originally made a request for this witness on 19 January 1946, which appears to have been in perfectly general terms, and that the Tribunal ordered, on 14 February, that you should furnish supplementary details of the evidence which you wanted to obtain by calling this witness. Thereupon, on 21 February, you withdrew your application.

You now submit the application again without giving any details at all, simply saying that the witness had been in Oslo on business and received information there of the imminent landing of Allied forces in Norway. Well, that is a perfectly general statement, just as general as the original statement. It does not seem to comply with the orders of the Tribunal at all.

DR. SIEMERS: On 21 February I withdrew my application because of the basic point of view which I have also presented to the Court.

I have pointed out that, in my opinion, the Defense cannot be expected to give every single detail, when we have not for three months after we were consulted had the slightest word, not one word, about a single witness of the Prosecution. When we of the Defense have not had the opportunity even of taking a stand on the relevancy of their witnesses. . .

THE PRESIDENT: I have already pointed out on several occasions that the reason why the defendants’ counsel have to submit applications for their witnesses is because they are unable to get their witnesses themselves and because they are applying to the Tribunal to get their witnesses for them and their documents for them. It is a work of very considerable magnitude to find and to bring witnesses to Nuremberg.

I understand from you that with reference to this witness you are trying now to get an affidavit from him.

DR. SIEMERS: Yes. At any rate I have been making the effort. Whether I shall receive the answer in time from Leipzig, which is in the Russian Zone, remains to be seen. In the meantime, in order to facilitate matters and to avoid delay, I have written to the witness Lackorn.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

DR. SIEMERS: I hope that an affidavit will be available in time.

For this reason I am willing to waive having him testify here.

THE PRESIDENT: If you get the affidavit, you will be able to give the Tribunal particulars of the evidence which the witness would give, and also to show it to the Prosecution, who will then be able to say whether they wish to have the witness brought here for cross-examination.

DR. SIEMERS: Certainly.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal will consider this application.

DR. SIEMERS: Witness Number 15 is a Norwegian, Alf Whist, former Secretary of Commerce. By decision of the Court on 14 February he was rejected as irrelevant.

Whist can testify that the reputation of the German Navy in Norway was very good throughout the occupation, and that in Norway the complaints were directed exclusively against the civil administration and not against the German Navy. Whist knows definitely, as does every other Norwegian, that the Navy was not involved in a single illegal or criminal measure in Norway during the occupation.

If this is considered irrelevant, I presume that Sir David means that the Navy, during the occupation of Norway, behaved correctly. Of course this is a question that must be sharply distinguished from the question which I shall discuss later, that is, the question of the occupation and the attack on Norway. I am speaking now only of the time after the occupation had been carried out.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: The point of the Prosecution is this: That whatever the facts were, assuming for the moment that the facts were that the German Navy had behaved with meticulous correctness on every point, the view of Mr. Alf Whist, who was Secretary of Commerce in the Quisling cabinet in Norway, as to how the German Navy behaved would not have the slightest interest or relevance or weight with anyone. That is the view of the Prosecution.

DR. SIEMERS: I hoped that Sir David would make his position clear as to whether charges in this connection will be made against the Navy. Sir David speaks of the Germans in general. I draw attention to the fact that the entire administration in Norway was a civil administration, and that, in the Terboven jurisdiction, the Navy had nothing to do with this administration; if I have named a single witness where I might have named hundreds, I did this only to give the Tribunal a picture of how Admiral Boehm, the Navy, and Raeder conducted themselves.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider it, Dr. Siemers.

DR. SIEMERS: Thank you.

THE PRESIDENT: Then you have still Number 17, the interpreter.

DR. SIEMERS: Regarding Lieutenant Colonel Goldenberg, it is Sir David’s point of view that he is unnecessary; if Admiral Schultze is approved as witness, an affidavit from Goldenberg will suffice for me. A short affidavit appears to me to be important, because Goldenberg was present as an impartial interpreter at every conference which took place between Darlan and Raeder. An affidavit will suffice in this case.

THE PRESIDENT: I think you can pass now to your documents. I ought to call your attention to an observation at the end of your application, which is that you intend to summon one or more witnesses. Who are they?

DR. SIEMERS: The Tribunal has declared that the details about a witness have to be submitted a long time in advance only because the Tribunal must procure the witness. When it is a question of a witness who comes to Nuremberg on his own initiative, I should be obliged for a decision on the point in connection with my defense, as to whether or not the Tribunal will admit such a witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Siemers, I have stated one of the principal reasons why Defense Counsel have to make applications, and another principal reason is a necessity for expedition in this Trial—expedition and security. The question of security is important, and therefore we must insist on being told who the witnesses are that you wish to call, Dr. Siemers. Otherwise, you will not be able to call them.

DR. SIEMERS: Am I obliged to do this even when the witness is already in the building?

THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, because, as I have told you, there are 20 or 21 defendants in the dock; and we have to try and make this Trial expeditious and we therefore cannot allow them to call as many witnesses as they choose to call. But if it is a question of your not having the names of the witnesses in your mind at the moment, you can certainly specify them after a short delay, or tomorrow.

DR. SIEMERS: I shall submit information on this matter shortly. I do not want to name the witness before I have talked it over with him.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Siemers, the Tribunal has no objection to your applying in respect of other witnesses, provided that you do so by tomorrow.

DR. SIEMERS: Very well, I know that, at the moment, the witness in question is not in Nuremberg, so that I cannot talk to him at the moment. I ask the Tribunal to pardon me for being so cautious. The Tribunal will be cognizant of the fact that witnesses have been taken into custody. I cannot take the responsibility for somebody’s being taken into custody because I named him as a witness. That is the reason. I shall, however, notify the Tribunal as soon as the witness is in Nuremberg and I have had a chance to speak to him. I shall do so within 24 hours. It is here a question of a testimony which would take 10 minutes at the most of the Court’s time. Therefore, I do not believe that this will burden the Tribunal too much.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. SIEMERS: Then I should like to add that I can give the address of the witness Severing, retired Reich Minister. I received it yesterday by telegraph. Witness Severing is Number 3 and the Prosecution is agreeable to his being heard. I shall submit the address in writing to the General Secretary. He is in Bielefeld and can be reached without trouble.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. If you give it to the General Secretary, that is all that is required. And now would probably be a convenient time to break off for 10 minutes.

MR. DODD: Your Honor. There is the matter of Admiral Bürckner. So far as we know, Dr. Siemers made one request about Admiral Bürckner some time ago, and at that time he was told, as I understand it, that Admiral Bürckner was to be called or that the Prosecution intended to call him as a witness, and that therefore we did not think it proper for him to talk to Admiral Bürckner until after we had called him as a witness.

Up to a very late date in this presentation of our case, we still had in mind calling Admiral Bürckner. I think some reference was made to him, as a matter of fact, before the Tribunal, with reference to the witness Lahousen. And it was for that reason that we told Dr. Siemers that we did not think he should talk to the witness until after he had testified or a decision had been made with reference to his testimony. But we have at all times tried to co-operate with the Defense and make available these people who are here in custody so that they may talk with them.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now for 10 minutes.

[A recess was taken.]

DR. SIEMERS: May I add something regarding the witnesses? Concerning witness Number 1, Marinedekan Ronneberger, I agree to use an affidavit as suggested by Sir David. Concerning the witness Bürckner, I would like to mention that Mr. Dodd’s statement is based on an error. I am not permitted to speak to the witness, because he has not yet been approved by the Tribunal as my witness. No other reason was given.

THE PRESIDENT: We do not think any further discussion is necessary about this witness. I have already stated what the members of the Tribunal will act upon.

DR. SIEMERS: I did not understand whether Mr. Dodd agreed to my speaking with the witness Bürckner now.

THE PRESIDENT: I think he said so. He said the Prosecution have closed their case, and they now have no longer any objection to your seeing the witness.

DR. SIEMERS: Then one last remark. The Tribunal will have noticed that I have not requested any witness concerning naval warfare and submarine warfare. The reason is that I have agreed with Dr. Kranzbühler that Dr. Kranzbühler will deal with the entire complex of naval warfare and submarine warfare, although, in this respect, it not only affects Grossadmiral Dönitz, but also in a considerable degree Grossadmiral Raeder in his capacity as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. Therefore, insofar as the interests of Grossadmiral Raeder are concerned in this matter, Dr. Kranzbühler will also represent him.

I should like to point out only that Dr. Kranzbühler’s very important application regarding the questions to Admiral Nimitz not only affects Grossadmiral Dönitz but, in particular, Grossadmiral Raeder, and beyond that, the organization of the General Staff, insofar as the Navy is concerned.

May I pass to the documents now?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: With regard to Document Number 1, The War Diaries of the Seekriegsleitung and the B.d.U., Dr. Kranzbühler’s assistant Dr. Meckel, has gone to London to work on these at the Admiralty.

With regard to Number 2, Weyer’s Navy Diary, and Nautikus’ Navy Year Book, there is no objection to Dr. Siemers having these. He will indicate in the ordinary way the passages he intends to use.

With regard to General Marshall’s report of 10 October 1945, I cannot see the relevancy of it at the moment, but if Dr. Siemers will indicate which part he intends to use, it can be discussed when he actually presents it to the Tribunal.

Now Number 4, the British Admiralty documents, May 1939 to April 1940, which are wanted as to the preparations of landing in Scandinavia and Finland. Although, strictly, what is relevant is what was known to the Defendant Raeder, I shall make inquiries about these documents, and if the Tribunal will give me a short time, I hope to be able to report to the Tribunal upon them.

I want to make it clear that I cannot, of course, undertake to give details on Allied documents; but I hope to be able to produce some documents which may be helpful to the Tribunal, and deal with them authoritatively. I would rather not be pressed for details at the moment.

DR. SIEMERS: I agree with Sir David, I hope that I will receive the books which belong to Number 2 and Number 3 soon, because otherwise a delay may be caused. The report of General Marshall of 10 October 1945 is, as far as I can judge from the excerpts, important for the reason that General Marshall adopts, on various points, an entirely different attitude from Justice Jackson’s. I believe that a comparison of two such outstanding opinions is of sufficient importance to have the report of General Marshall also heard here. Concerning Number 4, I am waiting for the final decision of the Prosecution.

I have only one more request, and I ask to be excused, since, by error, I have not listed this Number 5. It is the following: The Prosecution has repeatedly presented quotations from the book Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler and inferred from it that each one of the defendants who held a leading position as early as 1933 should have known from this book, even before 1933, that Hitler was contemplating the launching of aggressive wars. I noticed that the quotations in the document book which was presented in November are all taken from an edition which was published only in 1933. The edition of 1933, however, differs in many points from the original edition. Unfortunately, I am personally only in possession of an edition which was published after 1933. In order to check these questions, that is to say, in order to see what anybody could have read in this book in 1928, and not 1933, I ask the Prosecution to try to submit a copy of the first edition. As far as I know, the first edition was published in 1925, and the second in 1927, by the publishing firm of Franz Eher.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We shall try to get an earlier edition, so that Dr. Siemers can compare the passages.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you going to deal with Page 2 of your document? Sir David, you have not dealt with this, have you?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No. I assume, Your Lordship, that Dr. Siemers would, in due course, indicate what excerpts he was going to use. We could discuss when he presents them, whether the Prosecution have any objection.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. You intended, Dr. Siemers, I suppose, to indicate the passages upon which you rely in your document book?

DR. SIEMERS: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: We have already discussed the point on Page 3, that is the question of tonnages built, and so on—I said I am making inquiries with regard to that.

THE PRESIDENT: My attention is drawn, Sir David, to Paragraph 4 B on Page 2. Are you suggesting that the Tribunal supply him with documents on German policy without any further reservation?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am very sorry. It was an oversight. I took it that that was included in the words at the top of the page:

“In addition, I shall submit documents and affidavits, some of which are already in my possession, and some of which I shall procure myself without having the assistance of the Prosecution.”

I took it that Dr. Siemers had certain documents on German policy, and will indicate what passages he is going to use. I am very sorry I did not refer to that.

THE PRESIDENT: Does this part of the application mean that, with reference to all these documents, Dr. Siemers has them and does not wish any further action to be taken with reference to them?

DR. SIEMERS: Yes, Sir.

THE PRESIDENT: I call on counsel for the Defendant Von Schirach.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Dr. Sauter suggests it would be convenient if I indicate the view of the Prosecution.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: May I ask the Tribunal to note that Dr. Sauter is asking for witnesses 1 to 8, except witness 5, as oral witnesses; that is, he is asking for seven oral witnesses, and Numbers 5 and 9 to 13 by way of affidavit.

The Prosecution suggest that, as far as oral witnesses are concerned, the defendant might have Number 1 or Number 2. that is, Wieshofer or Hoepken, because these witnesses appear to cover the same ground; that he might have Number 3, the witness Lauterbacher, who was Chief of Staff of the Reich Youth Leadership (Reichsjugendführung); and, also, that he might have Number 8, that is Professor Heinrich Hoffmann, who, I think, is Schirach’s father-in-law—since the description of his evidence takes up nine pages of the application, he is obviously a very important witness.

Then the Prosecution suggest that there might be affidavits from Number 5, Scharizer, who was the deputy Gauleiter of Vienna; Number 11, who is Madame Vasso; Number 12, Herr Schneeberger; and Number 13, Field Marshal Von Blomberg.

The witnesses that the Prosecution find difficulty in perceiving the necessity for are: First of all, Number 4, Frau Hoepken—there are no details given in this application, except that she was secretary to Von Schirach; Number 6, the witness Heinz Schmidt, who apparently repeats part of the evidence of the witness Lauterbacher word for word; Number 7, Dr. Schlünder, who also repeats the witness Lauterbacher word for word; and Number 9, Dr. Klingspor, who passes a personal view on the defendant, which, in the submission of the Prosecution, is not really helpful evidence; and finally, Dr. Roesen, Number 10, who speaks as to an isolated incident of kindness on the part of the defendant to the family of the musician Richard Strauss.

This is the position which the Prosecution take with regard to the witnesses.

DR. SAUTER: Your Honors, I have, in the case of Baldur von Schirach also, limited my evidence as much as possible. For a personal hearing, here before the Tribunal, I have proposed as witnesses, Numbers 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, and 8, and I must earnestly request you, Your Honors, to grant me these witnesses.

The difficulty, in the case of Schirach, as regards the presentation of evidence, is that evidence must be produced and offered for two entirely separate complexes. One is the activity of the Defendant Von Schirach in his capacity as Reich Youth Leader; and the second is his activity in Vienna, during the period from 1940 to 1945, in which he still exercised certain functions in Youth Leadership in addition to his main duties. Therefore, I need witnesses for both these activities of the Defendant Von Schirach.

In addition to this difficulty there is still another one. The Defendant Von Schirach was Reich Youth Leader, and that implied that practically without exception all his collaborators were relatively young people who during the second World War served a long time in the Army. Therefore it is quite possible that for a few years during the World War one witness might know nothing at all, because he did not work on the staff of the Defendant Von Schirach during this time; and that therefore, for this time, another collaborator of Schirach will have to be called upon, in order to give information on his activity.

Your Honors, in earlier written applications I had requested more witnesses, but I have omitted these additional witnesses right from the beginning in the application now submitted to you, in order to contribute thus, as far as I can, to expediting the procedure. But, Your Honors, these six witnesses that I have requested to have brought before the Tribunal I really must have granted me for, if a clear picture of Schirach’s activities is to be gained, I cannot forego any one of them. I may also point out that all these six witnesses that I have listed under the numbers given, for the purpose of calling them, have already been approved by the Tribunal, so that the new approval will consist only of a repetition of your own earlier decision.

The witness Wieshofer, Your Honors, who is listed under Number 1, was from 1940 to 1945 adjutant of the Defendant Von Schirach; that is to say, during the period that covers the activity of the Defendant Von Schirach as Gauleiter of Vienna and Reichsstatthalter.

This collaborator, who was with the Defendant Schirach daily and who knew him very well, has been named by me particularly for the purpose of testifying—although, of course, he will also testify on other things—that Schirach, in his capacity as Gauleiter of Vienna, pursued an entirely different policy to that of his predecessor, the former Gauleiter Bürckel; that he, contrary to Bürckel, endeavored to establish correct relations with the Catholic Church, and that, with this aim in mind, he successfully influenced and instructed also his collaborators and subordinates. I say successfully, because these efforts by the Defendant Von Schirach to bring about satisfactory relations with the Catholic Church have also been repeatedly acknowledged on the part of the Church, as well as by the Catholic population of Vienna.

Besides, the witness Wieshofer will also corroborate that the Defendant Von Schirach had nothing at all to do with the deportation of Jews from Vienna; that this matter of the Jews was. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Do not Numbers 1 and 2, Wieshofer and Hoepken, really deal substantially with the same subject? Would it not be sufficient if one were called as a witness and if the other one gave evidence by interrogatory?

DR. SAUTER: I do not quite think so, Mr. President, because the witness Hoepken, who is listed under Number 2, was a collaborator of the Defendant Von Schirach as early as 1938, in the Reich Youth Leadership, and because he is supposed to give information especially about the activity of the Defendant Von Schirach as Reich Youth Leader and in particular also about his efforts to bring about understanding and friendship with the youth of other nations, such as, for instance, England and France. I believe, Your Honors, that with regard to the specific importance of these particular questions, the attitude of the Defendant Von Schirach in the naming of witnesses should be given recognition here, and that not one witness only, but both should be granted. I have submitted the addresses of both witnesses to the Tribunal. They are in a camp, and I believe, Your Honors, it is imperative to summon both witnesses to establish the facts.

THE PRESIDENT: I still do not follow what the essential difference is between the two.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have just pointed out that the witness Number 2, Hoepken, had a leading position in the Reich Youth Leadership, and that therefore the witness Number 2, Hoepken, is in a position to give information especially about the activity of the Defendant Von Schirach as Reich Youth Leader.

THE PRESIDENT: But Dr. Sauter, you stated that Wieshofer, Number 1, was adjutant to Schirach in his capacity as Reichsleiter of Education of Youth, so that he was in just as close contact with the defendant on the question of the education of youth as Hoepken.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, but youth education was Hoepken’s main official task while the activity of the witness Wieshofer was limited mainly to the job of adjutant to the Defendant Von Schirach, primarily in his capacity as Gauleiter in Vienna. That is the main difference, and the witnesses who could provide information about his activity in Vienna are mainly the witness Wieshofer and, to a small extent, also Hoepken. But I need Hoepken, by all means, as I said, for the clarification of the activity of Schirach in the Reich Youth Leadership.

Mr. President, may I also point out that much is at stake for the Defendant Von Schirach, and that, from the point of view of the Court, it should really not make much difference, in a matter so important to Schirach, whether one witness or two witnesses are called.

Your Honors, I could have suggested perhaps four witnesses in the hope that two would then be granted. If now, in the name of the Defendant Von Schirach, I am proposing to call only two witnesses, I would not think it very just if one of these two witnesses should be denied.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider what you have said.

DR. SAUTER: Furthermore, Your Honors, in the third place, I have to request Hartmann Lauterbacher. If I have understood correctly, the Prosecution agree to this; therefore, I can be brief.

The witness Lauterbacher, who was Chief of Staff of the Reich Youth Leadership, is in a position to supply information especially about the fact that the Defendant Schirach in no way prepared the youth psychologically and pedagogically for the war, and by no means for an aggressive war. Furthermore, he can testify that the allegations of a Polish report—presented by the Russian Prosecution in one of the sessions during February, I believe on 9 February 1946—are definitely false. According to this report, the Hitler Youth had used spies and parachute agents in Poland. And this is false and the witness Lauterbacher will refute it. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, Sir David said he would not object to Number 3 being called as a witness, but what he did object to was 6 and 7, whom you are also asking for, as oral witnesses, because he said that they repeated what Lauterbacher said—Numbers 6 and 7, that is Schmidt and Schlünder.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, there again is the difficulty which I pointed out before. From the Polish Government report which was read by the Soviet Prosecution on 9 February 1946, it cannot be seen in what period these activities concerning the Hitler Youth agents and spies are to have taken place.

Now it may happen here that, if I have only one witness, it will be alleged that it was at some other time, perhaps at a time when this witness was in the Army; and that is why, in the interest of a complete clarification of these facts, I have asked to have witness Number 6 heard also. That is the witness Schmidt.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, if you say that, does it not appear that, with reference to Schlünder, his collaboration with the defendant extended from 1933 to 1945 and therefore if he were called or were to give an affidavit or an interrogatory, and Lauterbacher, who extends only from 1933 to 1940, you would cover the whole period and you could exclude Schmidt?

DR. SAUTER: If I understand you correctly, Mr. President, you are referring to an interrogatory in the case of Lauterbacher.

THE PRESIDENT: No, Sir David was prepared to have Lauterbacher called as a witness.

DR. SAUTER: Lauterbacher is to be called as a witness and Schmidt is to receive an interrogatory?

THE PRESIDENT: He said that Schmidt and Schlünder were cumulative. Then you said they did not relate to the same period, as I understood you, and that might raise a difficulty. So I pointed out to you that Number 7 related to the whole period, that is to say from 1933, beyond the period dealt with by Lauterbacher, and goes to 1945, and therefore, if he were called, that would cover the whole period, and if you called Lauterbacher and Schlünder and left out Schmidt. . .

DR. SAUTER: You mean that an interrogatory is to be obtained from Schmidt? I am agreeable to that.

THE PRESIDENT: The statements which you make with reference to Schmidt and to Schlünder are practically identical.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, only they refer to different periods, as each of them was in the Army. If one of them comes, he cannot say anything, of course, about the time during which he served in the Army. He cannot give any information as to whether, during his military service, agents were used.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not know about that. You have stated that they were collaborators with the defendant from 1938 to 1945 in the one case, and from 1933 to 1945 in the other case, and therefore, if that is correct, they cannot have been in the Army; they cannot have taken an active part in the Army.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I should be quite prepared to agree to the suggestion that Your Lordship put forward; that would then cover the whole period. If both Lauterbacher and Schlünder were called, it would dispense with the necessity for Schmidt.

DR. SAUTER: May I point out, Mr. President, that in any case I need Schlünder, who, by the way, was arrested a few weeks ago, because he was a specialist for physical training with the Reich Youth Leadership, and because, therefore, I want to prove, especially through Dr. Schlünder, that the education of the youth, as administered by the Defendant Von Schirach, was absolutely neither extraordinary nor militaristic. The Defendant Von Schirach has thus far, during the entire procedure in his interrogations. . .

THE PRESIDENT: I think, really, there is a substantial agreement between you and Sir David that Number 1 and Number 3 certainly should be called and that Number 7 might be called; but I do not know whether Sir David agrees that an affidavit or an interrogatory might be given by Number 6.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I have no objection to that, My Lord.

THE PRESIDENT: That is substantially what you want, Dr. Sauter?

DR. SAUTER: Yes, Sir.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well; let us get on then.

DR. SAUTER: Your Honors, I have then, in addition, under Number 4, listed an affidavit by a witness, Maria Hoepken. I shall submit this affidavit, which is already in my possession, to the Tribunal and to the Prosecution, along with my document book, sufficiently in advance.

Then I have also affidavits in my possession, if I may mention that now, from two witnesses: Number 9, Dr. Klingspor, and Number 10, Dr. Roesen. The same thing applies here. The Tribunal and the Prosecution will receive these two affidavits in time, together with my document book.

Concerning Number 8, the witness Hoffmann, the Prosecution agree to having him called as a witness since this witness is here in Nuremberg. Therefore I believe that I do not have to make any detailed statements concerning this witness.

The same applies to Number 12 and Number 13. These are two witnesses: One a Gauobmann Schneeberger from Vienna, who, primarily, is to inform us on the attitude of the defendant on the question of foreign workers during the time of his activity as Gauleiter in Vienna; and Number 13, Field Marshal Von Blomberg, who is to inform us on the attitude of the Defendant Von Schirach on the question of the premilitary education of the youth, on the question of physical training, and on the question of patriotic education of youth. The Prosecution agree to interrogatories from these two witnesses—which I have already suggested myself.

And now, Your Honors, I come to the one figure on my list which is closest to the heart of my client and myself. It is Number 11; that is the application to examine a French woman by the name of Ida Vasso. Of this witness, Ida Vasso, we have heard in court for the first time when the Soviet Prosecution submitted a commission “Report on the Atrocities of the Fascist-German Invaders in the Lvov Area,” as the title reads—Document Number USSR-6.

This document contains a sentence to the effect that a French woman, Ida Vasso, who was working in a children’s home in Lvov, had reported that the Hitler Youth had committed special atrocities in Lvov. It was alleged that from the ghetto small children were sold; however, it was not revealed by whom and to whom these children were to have been sold; and yet, as a matter of course, it is the Hitler Youth who are said to have used these children as targets.

Your Honors, we are fully aware that such happenings would represent a quite extraordinary atrocity, and I can tell you that none of all the presentations of the Prosecution during the last three months has so distressed the Defendant Schirach, as has this statement. The Defendant Schirach has always, even in his earlier interrogations, maintained that he assumes full responsibility for the education and training of the German Youth, as directed by him; and that he is ready and willing, even as a defendant here, to explain to the Tribunal what principles guided him, what aims he had, and what successes he achieved. He has, for instance, never denied that this youth training was based on patriotism. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, you are only applying for witnesses now, are you not? You see, you agree in your application to an affidavit. . .

DR. SAUTER: I did not understand, Mr. President?

THE PRESIDENT: What I was pointing out to you was that this is only an application with reference to witnesses, and in your application you say, “However, in consideration of the far distance of the witness from Nuremberg, I agree that at first an affidavit should be drawn up.”

DR. SAUTER: Yes.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David agreed that an affidavit should be drawn up. So you are in agreement, and I do not understand why we should be troubled with further application.

DR. SAUTER: However, Mr. President, I have added something to my application. I have written that a personal appearance of this witness before the Tribunal would be useful so that she can be questioned, because her testimony is important for the judging of the Hitler Youth as a whole. I have also added. . .

THE PRESIDENT: Your application states that you reserve that right. Well, you can prepare the affidavit and then send it out to the witness, and then you can see whether you want the witness for cross-examination. And Sir David agrees to that course.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, my client attaches so much importance to this particular case for the following reasons: The HJ, that is the Hitler Youth, which he led, comprised about 8 million members. It was therefore larger than. . .

THE PRESIDENT: But Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal quite understands why the defendant is interested in the matter. But it seems to them it would be perfectly satisfactory if an affidavit were drawn up and sent to the witness; and then you can see whether you want the witness, whose present location is unknown, brought here personally.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, my client noticed one thing in particular, that is, that among 8 million members only one single case of atrocities occurred, of which he never heard anything at all in the Reich Youth Leadership. However, I agree to the obtaining of an affidavit for reasons of expediency; but for just this case I must reserve the right to have the witness called, if the affidavit should be insufficient.

THE PRESIDENT: That deals with the witnesses, and we had better adjourn now.

[The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]