Morning Session
THE PRESIDENT: Had Dr. Kubuschok finished his cross-examination?
DR. KUBUSCHOK: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then would any other of the defendants’ counsel wish to examine or cross-examine?
PROFESSOR DOCTOR HERBERT KRAUS (Counsel for Defendant Schacht): Professor Kraus for Dr. Lüdinghausen on behalf of the Defendant Von Neurath. I ask your permission to put several questions to the witness.
[Turning to the witness.] Witness, at the Munich conferences Hitler, it is alleged, put the following question: “What is to happen if the Czechs are not in agreement with our occupation of the Sudetenland?” Thereupon Daladier answered, “Then we will force them.” Is that correct?
GÖRING: This question was actually broached by the Führer during the discussion. Premier Daladier said, in substance, whether with the same words or not, something which corresponds to the sense of this statement. As far as I can still remember fairly exactly, he emphasized that now a decision in that direction had been reached by the great powers for the purpose of maintaining peace, and this peace must not be threatened anew by Czechoslovakia’s refusal, otherwise neither England nor France would feel themselves in any way in duty bound to help, if Czechoslovakia did not follow this advice.
DR. KRAUS: Witness, how long have you known Herr Von Neurath?
GÖRING: As far as I recall I saw Herr Von Neurath very briefly when he was the German Ambassador to Denmark in 1919, but only for a short time. Later I met him again just before the seizure of power and spoke to him very briefly, I believe; my closer relationship and acquaintance begins from the time after the seizure of power.
DR. KRAUS: Did you have any closer knowledge of his activities as Ambassador in London?
GÖRING: That is correct. I did know about his work before, because even in former times, that is in 1931 and 1932, before Herr Von Neurath became Foreign Minister, in discussions about the possible formation of a cabinet, we also considered the name of Herr Von Neurath as a candidate, even though he did not belong to the Party. As a basic consideration in this connection his very position as Ambassador to England played the main role, since we, that is, Hitler as well as I, were of the opinion that Herr Von Neurath’s relations as Ambassador to the English Government were very good and that Herr Von Neurath could be an important factor in this field—that of good relations with England—which was a basic consideration in the Führer’s foreign policy.
DR. KRAUS: Then I may assume that Herr Von Neurath had pursued a policy of peace and understanding in London?
GÖRING: Yes, you can assume that exactly.
DR. KRAUS: Yes; and can you tell me if, beyond that, Herr Von Neurath made efforts in his capacity as Foreign Minister as well, to continue this policy of peace and understanding?
GÖRING: When Reich President Von Hindenburg made it a condition, which I have already mentioned, that Herr Von Neurath should become Foreign Minister, the Führer was in full agreement with this condition, because he saw that the task of establishing good relations with England and the West was in good hands. Herr Von Neurath always made every effort in this direction.
DR. KRAUS: I should like to deal with another series of questions.
Were you present at the meeting of the Reich Cabinet on 30 January 1937, during which Hitler gave the Golden Party Emblem to those members of the Cabinet who were not members of the Party, among them also Herr Von Neurath?
GÖRING: Yes, I was present.
DR. KRAUS: And do you know that Hitler declared on this occasion that it was purely a distinction such as the conferring of an order, and that the gentlemen concerned did not thereby become Party members and had no obligations toward the Party?
GÖRING: I would not put it just that way. The Führer was speaking spontaneously, since it was the anniversary of the seizure of power, and he said it was his intention in this way to show his confidence in those members of the Reich Cabinet who did not belong to the Party. I believe he used the words, “I should like to ask them to accept this Party Emblem.” He said at the time that in his opinion this was a decoration and that he intended, as he actually did later, to develop additional grades of this decoration. The first grade of this decoration was to be the Golden Party Emblem. Then, on the spur of the moment, he stepped up to the various ministers and handed them this emblem. In doing so he neither emphasized that they were thereby to consider themselves members of the Party, nor did he emphasize that they were not Party members.
When he came to Herr Von Eltz-Rübenach, this gentleman asked whether he was thereby obliged to stand for the partly anti-clerical tendency of certain Party circles, or something to that effect. The Führer hesitated for a minute and said, “Then you do not wish to accept it?” Whereupon Herr Von Eltz said, “I do not wish to say that. I just wish to make a certain reservation.” The Führer was taken aback; immediately he turned around and left the cabinet room.
In this connection it is not correct, as has been maintained, that Herr Von Eltz resigned voluntarily because of this. I followed the Führer immediately and felt, as did all the other gentlemen, that this incident was an insult to the Führer, since membership in the Party had not been mentioned at all. In addition, and this is very important, the Führer was already considering a plan to divide the Ministry of Transport and to re-establish the old Post Ministry and to put the railroad expert Dorpmüller into the Ministry of Transport. The Führer had told me this previously and, as he had left it to me to tell Von Eltz about it gradually, in a diplomatic way, I took this opportunity and went to Herr Von Eltz and said: “Your behavior was impossible, and I think the only thing for you to do is to resign at once.” He said, “I did not mean it like that,” and he was not willing to hand in his resignation right away. I then asked him abruptly to do so by that evening. I also sent State Secretary Meissner to him to say it would be advisable for him to leave the Cabinet and hand in his resignation immediately, especially in view of—and then I gave the explanations concerning the post and railroads as I have just given them.
That was what happened at that conference with regard to the Golden Party Emblem.
DR. KRAUS: Witness, were you present when Hitler, in the evening of 11 March 1938, told Herr Von Neurath in the Reich Chancellery about the entry of the troops into Austria, and informed him of the reasons for this move, and asked him to inform the Foreign Office accordingly, because he himself had to leave?
GÖRING: I have already mentioned in my remarks about Austria that Foreign Minister Von Ribbentrop was not present. Since the Führer had delegated the representation of the Reich to me, I had asked him to ask Herr Von Neurath to put his experience in foreign affairs at my disposal during this time. Thereupon Herr Von Neurath was asked to come to the Reich Chancellery that evening, I believe, and the Führer told him in broad outlines what you have just said. It was to the effect that, if I needed it and requested it, he was to advise me on matters of foreign policy, since the Foreign Minister was not present and I had no experience in answering diplomatic notes, and since it was to be expected that some foreign political action, such as protests and notes, at least, would be taken during the Führer’s absence.
DR. KRAUS: Then one is to conclude that Herr Von Neurath was not the deputy of the Foreign Minister but only in his absence was to serve as sort of an adviser to you?
GÖRING: He was not the deputy of the Foreign Minister; that would not at all have been in keeping with his position and his rank. The deputy of the Foreign Minister was the acting State Secretary.
DR. KRAUS: Von Weizsäcker?
GÖRING: I believe it was Herr Von Mackensen at that time; he also signed the current correspondence in the absence of the Foreign Minister. Herr Von Neurath was only my adviser in such matters of foreign policy as were expected to come up in connection with the Austrian case.
DR. KRAUS: Do you know of the protest which came from the British Ambassador on 11 March 1938, which was addressed, strangely enough, to Herr Von Neurath and in which the British Ambassador protested against the marching in of German troops?
GÖRING: That is not at all so strange, for on the evening of the marching in of the troops I personally, as I have explained, spoke to the British Ambassador for 2 hours and told him that the Führer was going to Austria the next day; that I would administer the Reich and had for this purpose requested Herr Von Neurath as my foreign political adviser, as Sir Nevile Henderson had already hinted that this would not be tolerated without protests. Thus the British Ambassador had already received this information from me the evening before. This explains the fact that he turned to Herr Von Neurath, because I had said to him, “If you come around with your old notes of protest, I personally cannot do very much about them.”
DR. KRAUS: Did Herr Von Neurath, after the Foreign Minister had formulated the answer to the protest, notify you by telephone of that answer, and did he ask you whether you would sign it as Hitler’s deputy?
GÖRING: Yes, of course; I was deputy head of State. He had to inform me of the reply and it was also a matter of course that I should say to him, “You sign,” for as deputy head of State I could not sign diplomatic notes.
DR. KRAUS: Thank you.
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, how far were the political leaders informed beforehand of the Führer’s foreign political intentions?
GÖRING: “Political leaders” is a very comprehensive term. It includes everyone from the Reichsleiter to the Blockleiter or Zellenleiter. Instruction of the entire body of political leaders with regard to matters of foreign policy quite naturally and understandably never took place, and could not take place unless the Führer publicly made known his general foreign political intentions to the entire nation either in the Reichstag or over the radio. The higher officers of the political leaders, for instance, the Reichsleiter or the Gauleiter, were likewise never called together as a group in order to be informed of political intentions which the Führer did not want to announce publicly.
He may personally have mentioned his intentions to one or other of the political leaders, who at the same time held another state office, or who was for some other reason in his confidence—I should first have to think where that might have been the case. He certainly did not do it to any unit or sub-unit. In his speeches to Gauleiter after the events had taken place, he merely referred to these things each time in retrospect and explained and unfolded his political intentions, which he had, however, already realized by then.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.
DR. MARTIN HORN (Counsel for Defendant Von Ribbentrop): Witness, do you know to what extent Von Ribbentrop was informed about military plans and intentions in his capacity as Foreign Minister?
GÖRING: I do not know the exact details. In general the same principle applies here too, that only such authorities as were competent, as far as these intentions were concerned, were kept informed, particularly so in the case of military intentions. Just how much the Führer told Herr Von Ribbentrop now and again in conversations about his military plans, I did not know.
DR. HORN: Is it correct that Hitler set down the guiding principles for all policies, including foreign policy?
GÖRING: That is a matter of course. Foreign policy above all was the Führer’s very own realm. By that I mean to say that foreign policy on the one hand and the leadership of the Armed Forces on the other hand enlisted the Führer’s greatest interest and were his main activity.
DR. HORN: Should I conclude from that that he was interested in the details of foreign policy as well?
GÖRING: He busied himself exceptionally with these details, as I have just stated, and with particularly great interest in both of these fields.
DR. HORN: Did Hitler expressly instruct you to keep secret the memorandum on Poland of 30 August 1939?
GÖRING: He did not expressly instruct me. I do not know whether he knew that I had it in my pocket. But in general he had given such instructions since he had instructed the one who would have had to hand it over, namely, Herr Von Ribbentrop, not to hand it over, so that I actually handed over this memorandum against the express order of the Führer, which constitutes a risk that probably only I—please do not misunderstand me—indeed I alone could take and afford.
DR. HORN: You mentioned a few days ago the diversified influence which the various personages had on Hitler. Do you know any facts from which we might conclude that Ribbentrop had not enough influence on Hitler to induce him to change decisions once he had made them?
GÖRING: As far as influence on Hitler, on the Führer, is concerned, that is a problematical subject. I should like first to confine myself to the question of Herr Von Ribbentrop’s influence. Herr Von Ribbentrop definitely had no influence in the sense that he could have steered Hitler in any one direction. To what extent arguments of an objective nature may perhaps have definitely influenced the Führer sometimes to do this or that in respect to foreign political affairs, or to refrain from doing it, or to change it, would have depended entirely on the strength of the arguments and the facts. To what extent that may sometimes have played a role I cannot say, for I was not present at 99 percent of the Führer’s conferences with Herr Von Ribbentrop. But Herr Von Ribbentrop had at no time such influence that he could have said, “Do this” or “Do not do it; I consider it a mistake,” when the Führer was convinced of the correctness of any matter.
DR. HORN: Do you know facts or observations which might point to the existence of a conspiracy in the highest circles of the government?
GÖRING: Conspiracy may be variously interpreted. Conspiracies naturally never took place in the sense that men secretly came together and discussed extensive plans in darkness and seclusion. As to conspiracy in the sense that the Führer had comprehensive conferences and as a result of these conferences decided upon joint undertakings, one can only talk of conspiracy here to the extent—and I beg of you again not to misunderstand me—that this took place between the Führer and me until, say, 1941. There was no one who could even approach working as closely with the Führer, who was as essentially familiar with his thoughts and who had the same influence as I. Therefore at best only the Führer and I could have conspired. There is definitely no question of the others.
DR. HORN: American war propaganda consistently spoke of Germany’s aggressive intentions toward the Western Hemisphere. What do you know about this?
GÖRING: The Western Hemisphere? Do you mean America?
DR. HORN: Yes.
GÖRING: Even if Germany had completely dominated the nations of Europe, between Germany and the American continent there are, as far as I still recall from my geographic knowledge, about 6,000 kilometers of water, I believe. In view of the smallness of the German fleet and the regrettable lack of bombers to cover this distance, which I have already mentioned, there was never any question of a threat against the American continent; on the contrary, we were always afraid of that danger in reverse, and we would have been very glad if it had not been necessary to consider this at all.
As far as South America is concerned, I know that we were always accused, by propaganda at least, of economic penetration and attempted domination there. If one considers the financial and commercial possibilities which Germany had before and during the war, and if one compares them with those of Great Britain or America, one can see the untenability of such a statement. With the very little foreign exchange and the tremendous export difficulties which we had, we could never constitute a real danger or be in competition. If that had been the case, the attitude of the South American countries would presumably have been a different one. Not the mark, but only the dollar ruled there.
DR. HORN: Thank you.
DR. SIEMERS: The Prosecution have submitted the diary of General Jodl under Document Number 1809-PS. In this diary there are two entries from the first half of 1940, in regard to which I should like to have your opinion. These two entries concern Russia at a time when Germany and Russia were on friendly terms.
I should like to say in advance that the substance of the intentions which are contained in these entries sounds rather fantastic, and that is why I would like to have your opinion as Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force.
I quote the first entry dated 13 February 1940:
“Have learned from Admiral Canaris that the Rewel Squadron is to be employed in full force going from Bulgaria toward the Caucasus. The Air Force must explain with whom this false idea originated.”
The second entry of May 1940 reads as follows, and I quote verbatim:
“Führer rejects request of the Air Force to set up a listening post in the Caucasus.”
I would like you to tell me what the thoughts were which guided you in these plans as Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force, and what facts were the basis of those thoughts.
GÖRING: If these entries were made on the basis of a report by Admiral Canaris, who was the chief of foreign intelligence, and if they were entered by Jodl in connection with the special long reconnaissance Rewel Squadron, it is because of the former’s connection with this squadron—to which he himself frequently assigned intelligence or espionage tasks—that he had heard of my intention to use it—which was something which I wanted to have kept especially secret. He apparently informed the High Command of the Armed Forces, where this action, or the intended action, met with complete misapprehension and could not be understood.
My intention in this connection—and I had personally ordered it—was entirely clear. The statement that it was to do reconnaissance work in or in the direction of the Caucasus is not quite correct. It would have been more correct to say in the direction of the Caucasus, Syria, and Turkey. But this mistake may have occurred in the report transmitted by Canaris.
I had received more and more intelligence reports to the effect that from Asia Minor actions were to be undertaken against the Russian oilfields of the Caucasus—Baku—and likewise actions for the purpose of gravely disrupting the oil supply from Romania to Germany.
As Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force I was the one chiefly interested in obtaining Romanian oil as well as Caucasian oil, more precisely petroleum and gasoline, on the basis of a trade agreement with Russia, because at that time the refineries were not completed and not working to capacity. A disturbance in either one of these supplying regions would have affected my Air Force very badly. Therefore I had to watch this closely. I anticipated disruption of the oil regions in the Caucasus.
I had the agents’ report checked by very reliable people and found that in Syria an army was actually formed under General Weygand which had the name of “Orient Army.” I was more interested, however, in the concentration of squadrons of aircraft in the Syrian area, not only of French but also English squadrons. As far as I remember I received these reports about the intentions of the French-British air squadrons through agents in Turkey, that is to say, from Turks, because there had been negotiations with Turkey regarding permission to fly over her territory in order to carry out the intention of the English-French air squadrons of suddenly bombing the Baku area and thereby severely damaging the Russian oil fields and eliminating deliveries to Germany.
I therefore had to, or rather I was obliged to find out constantly, through long-range reconnaissance flights, the extent to which the airfields in Syria were becoming more active than before. There could be no other reason for massing aircraft there exactly at this time, for it was not a theater of war nor was any threat there on the part of Germany at that moment. On the contrary, it would have been understandable if all British and French aircraft had been needed in England and France themselves.
If, therefore, my long-range reconnaissance flights established the fact that the airdromes in Syria were being used more than ever, and further confirmed that possibly the airfields in the east of Turkey were being increased, this would have been, and actually was, a confirmation of the alleged intentions. In this case, as soon as I was fully convinced of this, I should have to point out to the Führer that Germany should draw Russia’s attention to the danger threatening her.
The establishing of listening posts, not in the Caucasus but before the Caucasus, naturally served the same purpose, namely that of setting up secret radio stations along the general line of flight, Syria-Caucasus, Syria-Baku, East Turkey-Baku, one, two or three, in order to find out whether preparatory flights by the French and English Air Forces were taking place; that is to say, reconnaissance on the oilfields, et cetera, in order to get more information that way also.
Since at the time I did not yet have conclusive and final proof in my hands, I kept these things to myself and dealt with them only in the offices responsible to my sector of the Air Force until I could obtain a clear picture. Only later, after the termination of the French campaign, absolute confirmation of these intentions was obtained by the discovery of the secret reports of the French General Staff and of the meetings of the combined Supreme Military Council of England and France, which proved that my information was entirely correct and that a plan for a surprise bombing attack on all the Russian oilfields had been prepared. In the meantime the confirmation of the plan to eliminate the Romanian oilfields, already known to us, was communicated to the Romanian Government and this attack on neutral Romania was then prevented.
DR. SIEMERS: I understood you correctly, did I not, that these plans were made by both England and France?
GÖRING: Yes.
DR. SIEMERS: And that the intelligence you received was to the effect that the attacks on the oilfields were directly aimed at the then neutral Russia and also indirectly at Germany by the cutting off of her oil supply?
GÖRING: Of course.
DR. SIEMERS: Thank you.
HERR BOEHM: Witness, is it true, as the Prosecution maintains, that you were Reichsführer of the SA?
GÖRING: I was not Reichsführer of the SA, there never was such a title. In 1923, on 9 November, I was a commander of the SA, which at that time existed only in Bavaria and to a small extent in Württemberg.
HERR BOEHM: According to that, how long were you commander of the SA?
GÖRING: I have just told you, until November 1923.
HERR BOEHM: From 1921 on?
GÖRING: From the beginning of 1923.
HERR BOEHM: What was your influence before and after 1923 respectively in regard to the leadership of the SA, the indoctrination of the people, and the giving of orders?
GÖRING: Please repeat the question.
HERR BOEHM: What was your influence before and after 1923 as far as the leadership of the SA, the indoctrination of the SA men, and the issuing of orders were concerned?
GÖRING: From the beginning of 1923 until 9 November 1923 my influence was complete and absolute, that is, I commanded the SA directly. After 1923 I was no longer entitled to have anything to do with the SA itself, nor did I.
HERR BOEHM: How was it before 1923, the relationship before 1923 as well as after 1923?
GÖRING: I beg your pardon?
HERR BOEHM: Was your relationship to the SA the same before 1923 as afterwards?
GÖRING: I have explained this very precisely. Until November 1923 I was commander of the SA with full power and authority to give orders. After 1923 I had nothing more to do with the SA as far as giving orders was concerned, but I was only—I do not know what year it was, perhaps 1936 or so—connected with the SA in an honorary capacity, but without exercising any authority. Besides, I had no occasion to do so.
HERR BOEHM: In the course of your testimony during the last week in connection with the SA people, you said that they were always ready to make great sacrifices. Now I would like you to tell me what kind of sacrifices these were.
GÖRING: The sacrifices of the SA men were these: they gave nearly all their leisure time to the movement without being reimbursed; they did without family life or recreation, so that in difficult times of our struggle for power they were always at the disposal of the Party, for election campaigns, continuous parades, protection of meetings, et cetera. In my eyes this is a considerable sacrifice, if one considers that most members of the SA were workers and minor employees who needed the few hours of their leisure more for rest, but who were always ready to be fully at the disposal of the Party and to work for their political ideals according to their political beliefs.
HERR BOEHM: Were these people promised material advantages?
GÖRING: None at all.
HERR BOEHM: Is it correct that particularly after the seizure of power a great number of communist agitators crept into the SA?
GÖRING: Please repeat the question.
HERR BOEHM: Is it correct that especially after the seizure of power, a great number of communist agitators were able to creep into the SA?
GÖRING: That was a very noticeable and vital matter. As after the seizure of power action was taken against the Communist Party, which was something they had logically expected, a number of members of the Red Front battle organization joined the SA, especially in large cities where this was easier. This was all the easier because the then head of the SA, Röhm, indiscriminately admitted SA men, or rather men into the SA, who did not need to be members of the Party, as was formerly required. Anyone could therefore become an SA man without belonging to the Party.
At the same time Hugenberg’s German National Party also started a political battle organization which he called the “Green Shirts.” These were also to be taken into the SA now, just as the Stahlhelm, as by themselves they seemed purposeless.
I personally remember one day when 400 to 500 of these people assembled at the Wilhelmstrasse to be enrolled in the SA. I saw these people from my window and definitely noticed that elements were involved which did not belong there. I immediately summoned the police and had a check made. Ninety-eight percent of these men had their communist Red Front membership cards in their pockets.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, the Tribunal considers that this is all cumulative to what the defendant has already said in his examination in chief. He has given us a long account of the SA in his examination in chief. He has added nothing in the course of what he is now saying.
HERR BOEHM: According to the Prosecution, it is asserted that the SA was composed of terror-gangsters. I feel in duty bound to correct or clarify this statement in this respect by asking . . .
THE PRESIDENT: That has nothing to do with what I said. It may be that the Prosecution have said that. Probably they have. What I was pointing out to you was that the Defendant Göring has been all over this ground in the evidence he has already given. The Tribunal does not wish to hear the same evidence twice.
HERR BOEHM: Yes, that may apply to my first three questions in a way.
[Turning to the witness.] I should like to ask further in what way you influenced the SA in connection with the Versailles Treaty? Did you tell the people that the Versailles Treaty should be annulled by diplomatic means or by war?
GÖRING: This question is extremely difficult to answer. If I made a speech to my SA men in 1923 I could not very well say much about diplomacy. They would not have understood that. Rather the question was quite simply to be rid of Versailles. The ordinary SA man was not at all concerned with the “how” or the “what.” That is the task of the leadership. I did not say, “I promise that you will never have war”; or that we were only a purely pacific organization and that we should try by protests only to rid the world of Versailles. But neither did I say to them, “In the next few years we will march out and make war.” In reality I did not tell them anything. I said that they would have to be obedient and have confidence in the leadership, and leave what was to be done to the leadership—that that was proper, and a basic attitude—every SA man knew that from our speeches and from the Party program. Among all the people the wish was—of every decent German, I hope—to be rid of Versailles.
HERR BOEHM: According to your knowledge, and apart from the period of 1923, from 1921 to 1945, was the SA and also the organ of the SA, that is, the leadership of the SA as well as the individual member, informed that the NSDAP intended after the seizure of power to dominate other states and to make war with that purpose in mind, even in disregard of the rules of war and the laws of humanity if need be?
GÖRING: I do not quite know just what one imagines the SA leadership and the entire SA to be. It is quite impossible that anyone should stand up and say, Listen, we wish: (1) to overthrow and subjugate and dominate all other states; (2) to wage war continuously; (3) to destroy everything and act as inhumanly as possible; and (4) to pay thereby no attention to any law of war.
I cannot imagine that anyone but an insane person would have made such statements before the SA or anyone else. The SA was never instructed politically in any way. It was told: “You will march tomorrow, and the day after leaflets will be distributed and then . . .” as I have already explained.
HERR BOEHM: During the time of the seizure of power there were various excesses on the part of the SA. Was this a matter of measures undertaken by individual members, or were these measures in accordance with instructions of the SA leadership?
GÖRING: In no case, I believe, in accordance with instructions from the middle or even the higher SA leadership offices. In an organization of a million young people there will always be a certain percentage of rowdies, especially in the large cities. As I have already mentioned, there was a considerable number of agitators in the organization; that thereby individual excesses on the part of individuals or groups of like-minded persons will occur, is entirely inevitable.
HERR BOEHM: Did the SA leadership in principle ever sanction individual actions on the part of its members?
GÖRING: I have already stated that I had very little to do with the leadership of the SA, but I do not think so.
HERR BOEHM: Is it correct that the police were forbidden to take steps against excesses on the part of individual members of the SA?
GÖRING: In the beginning that was not the case at all. By that I mean that, on the contrary, the police had orders to take most decisive action in such cases, and particularly the Police Commissioner of Berlin, who was not of the Party, Admiral Von Levetzow, retired, acted very vigorously here. That may even have been the reason for his being removed by the Führer, 2 years later, I believe, owing to continued complaints by the Berlin Gauleiter Goebbels.
HERR BOEHM: How was it later on? If I understood you correctly, you said that in the beginning that was not the case; later the police must have been forbidden to intervene in the case of excesses by members of the SA?
GÖRING: No, it is not to be understood that way. At all times the police intervened against excesses by individual SA men, as far as I remember. A number of SA men were even convicted.
HERR BOEHM: In the Prussian police system, and in the police system of the other states, were only SA members used, or was it rather that all Germans who at that time volunteered to enter the police service were examined and according to the results of this examination were then used or not used?
GÖRING: There was a purging of the police according to our ideas, that is, an investigation was made to see which elements were so strongly bound to the party of the opponents, that is, to hostile parties, that their use no longer seemed possible. These people were eliminated. But that was a very small percentage in comparison with the actual total number of police. They were replaced, and municipal police in particular, who wore uniforms, were increased. Voluntary applications for this came from all sides. Of course, members of our own organizations were in part favored; but a number of people were also taken who were not in these organizations, and those who came from the organizations had to take tests of aptitude for the police services. Many of them did not pass the test and were not taken. That is how things were as long as I was concerned with the police. What happened later I cannot tell you exactly.
HERR BOEHM: Is it correct that the SA after 1934, besides training for sports, was used mainly for emergencies, to line the route on the occasion of marches, to shovel snow, to clean up bomb damage, and so forth?
GÖRING: After 1934 the importance of the SA declined tremendously. This is understandable, for their chief task no longer existed after the seizure of power. They were used to the fullest extent for the purposes just mentioned by you. Then during the war they had pre-military duties; and after the war they were to have formed a pool for the former military clubs, so that they could be joined to the SA as veterans associations. That was the intention, in order to give the SA a further sphere of activities.
HERR BOEHM: Do you know that the Stahlhelm, by virtue of an agreement between the Führer and Seldte, were taken into the SA reserves in a body?
GÖRING: Yes.
HERR BOEHM: Is it correct that after 1933, like the Stahlhelm, the riding clubs of that time were also taken into the SA through the so-called conformity measures?
GÖRING: I believe that is correct.
HERR BOEHM: Was the SA leadership and its members before or after 1933 at any time informed of the results of cabinet consultations, or of the decisions taken by the Cabinet?
GÖRING: I have already said in my general remarks just how the leadership of the SA should be regarded. No, of course not.
HERR BOEHM: The Indictment states in connection with the presentation of the charge of aggressive war and the participation of the SA in such a war, that the SA took part in its preparation in that before the war it annually trained about 25,000 officers in special schools. You must surely have known something about that?
GÖRING: The training of officers of the Armed Forces was carried out solely in the Armed Forces’ own military schools, and I could never understand how the SA could be in a position from the purely technical point of view, and as regards organization, to train officers for the Armed Forces. In addition, it seems to me that the training of 25,000 officers a year is far in excess of the number of officers needed for the Armed Forces. It would have been very nice if we had had so many, but this number, at all events for several years, is just as incorrect as the statement that the SA had to train officers. The training of officers was done by the Armed Forces entirely and exclusively.
HERR BOEHM: But men do seem to have been trained. Do you know where these men were trained and for what purpose? Do you know anything about Führer Schools?
GÖRING: Yes, there were Führer Schools for every organization. Every organization had its schools where it taught and trained those who in its own cadres were to have some sort of leading position. I can only imagine that the Prosecution confused things perhaps, or perhaps wanted to say that some of the SA leaders had received a certain preliminary pre-military training, in the reading of maps or something similar. That, however, is beyond the scope of my knowledge.
HERR BOEHM: May I ask you to explain the relation of the Feldherrnhalle to the SA or the Armed Forces? Was there a formation, or a regiment by the name of Feldherrnhalle? What was particular about this?
GÖRING: After the SS had been allowed several companies by the Führer as armed units—and these actually represented military formations, as, for instance, the Leibstandarte, Grossdeutschland and others−the SA leadership requested that it be granted at least one unit which it might arm with rifles and small arms, as a parade unit, I might say, and this unit was called Feldherrnhalle. Lutze, the then SA leader, suggested to the Führer that I should be made the head of this unit. It is a position of honor to be the head of a regiment or a unit. When I saw this unit for the first time—I believe in a body at a Party rally at Nuremberg—it pleased me immensely because it was composed of only outstanding, especially selected young men.
Really I thanked the SA rather badly for this special honor, for after seeing this excellent unit I dissolved it a few weeks later and took it over in a body into the Air Force and made of it my first paratroop regiment. So, after a brief existence, this unit became simply an Armed Forces formation, a regiment of the Air Force. Because of this procedure, which was unpleasant for the SA, it was quite some time, I believe, before the SA leader Lutze decided to form a similar unit with the name of Feldherrnhalle and he kept this unit very much smaller; it did sentry duty for the supreme SA leadership, and he did not make me the head of this unit a second time.
HERR BOEHM: According to my information, as well as information I personally received from SA-Gruppenführer and Obergruppenführer, and other information which I obtained myself through reading, the Feldherrnhalle was not armed until it passed into the Air Force. Is that correct?
GÖRING: No, that is not correct. I think, but I cannot say so under oath with certainty, that they received rifles shortly before, but only rifles. But as I said before, I do not know exactly.
In this connection, as the Prosecution has referred to this point, I should like to emphasize that this regiment was already provided for as a paratroop regiment in Case Green. After Case Green had been peacefully settled, that is, after the Sudetenland question had been solved peacefully, and long after the occupation of the Sudetenland, I made this regiment bail out and land there, as originally intended, but purely for purposes of practice and maneuvers. This was the landing at Freudenthal which the Prosecution has mentioned. By this time they were already in blue uniforms when they landed and were therefore already a regiment of the Air Force. Merely as a matter of courtesy I had invited the SA leader Lutze to watch this demonstration.
HERR BOEHM: In this war did the SA ever play a strategic or tactical role in connection with the deployment of forces?
GÖRING: No, the SA as such was never used in combat within the Armed Forces as the SA or as an SA unit, either tactically or otherwise. It may be that toward the end there were certain SA units in the Volkssturm.
HERR BOEHM: Is it correct that the SA as a body co-operated with the Armed Forces in the occupation of Austria, the Sudetenland, and the Czech State?
GÖRING: In the case of Austria, the Austrian SA, which was there on the spot, did not take part in the occupation for it had been called up there in a few places as auxiliary police. Actually the so-called Austrian Legion, which was in the Reich, was at my express command and at the express wish of Seyss-Inquart, held back for a long time and was not allowed to go home until after the absolute consolidation of the Austrian situation. It did come from Austria originally. How far units of the SA marched into the Sudetenland after the zone was given over to Germany, I do not know. I heard that there were also Sudeten Germans involved here who had had to flee prior to that time and who were now returning. In connection with the occupation of the rest of Czechoslovakia, I cannot possibly imagine that SA formations played any part in the entry of our troops.
HERR BOEHM: Could the members of the SA have known that possibly, according to the intention of the SA leadership, they would or could be used for the carrying out of punishable acts?
GÖRING: I did not quite get the substance of that question.
HERR BOEHM: Could the members of the SA have known that according to the intention of the SA leadership they might possibly be used to commit crimes?
GÖRING: Crimes, never.
HERR BOEHM: Now, I have a last question, but I believe that in a certain sense you have already answered it. Did the members of the SA know, or could they know, or ought they to have known, the aims and purposes of the SA at any time, so that they could recognize the intention of the SA leadership, or of the staff leadership, to commit crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity as stated in the Indictment?
GÖRING: I have already answered this.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn for 10 minutes.
[A recess was taken.]
HERR BOEHM: Mr. President, I should like to ask you to permit me to put one more basic question, namely, the question of honorary leadership.
[Turning to the witness.] There were honorary leaders in the SA, for instance, the Obergruppenführer, Gruppenführer, Brigadeführer, Standartenführer, and Sturmführer. Witness, I should like you to explain to me what the significance of the honorary leader in the organization of the SA was as far as the training of the SA and the issuing of orders to the SA was concerned—what kind of influence he might have had.
GÖRING: The honorary leaders of the SA were appointed for all sorts of reasons and motives. They had an exclusively representative function, that is to say, they took part in party ceremonies wearing the SA uniform. They were by no means active members of the SA, and were not informed of any internal activities of the SA, or of operations and other tasks. Their function was purely decorative.
DR. RUDOLF MERKEL (Counsel for Gestapo): Witness, can one say that the Gestapo in the year 1933, when it was created by you, was a National Socialist combat unit, or was it rather a state organization such as, for example, the criminal police or other state and Reich authorities?
GÖRING: I have already emphasized that this was a purely state organization built around the already existing political police force, which was merely being reorganized and brought into line with the new state principles. At this time it had not even the slightest connection with the Party. The Party had no influence, or authority to give orders or directives of any sort; it was exclusively a state institution. The members who were in it already, or who came into it, were at this time officials with all the rights and duties of such.
DR. MERKEL: To your knowledge, did the position change in any way between the time the State Police was taken over by Himmler and 1945?
GÖRING: Until 1934 it was exactly as I described it. Then with the further expansion, the SS element did certainly become stronger and perhaps more people from this sector were brought in, but even these—at that time they all had to pass an examination—became and remained officials. I heard later that nothing changed as far as this official character was concerned, but gradually in the course of years all officials, whether they wanted to or not, had, I believe, to take on some rank in the SS, so that a Gestapo official, who perhaps until the year 1939 or 1940 had had nothing to do with the SS, and whose employment dated from the old days—that is, he had been a police official of the Weimar Republic—was automatically given some rank or other in the SS. But he remained an official, that is, the Gestapo was an apparatus for officials in the German police force.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know whether it is true that after the seizure of power Himmler, in his capacity as Police Commissioner of Munich, was at the same time the head of the political police and the criminal police in Bavaria?
GÖRING: As far as I know, and as I have already explained, Himmler was first of all Police Commissioner of Munich. Very shortly afterwards, it may perhaps have been one or two weeks, he called himself Police Commander of Bavaria. Then in the course of one and one half months—it all took place very quickly—he became—what he called himself I do not know exactly—in fact the supreme police chief of all German provinces and free cities, with the exception of Prussia.
DR. MERKEL: You said before that the officials of the Gestapo were taken into the SS. Did this happen voluntarily, or was there some coercion on the part of the administrative authorities to make these officials part of the SS?
GÖRING: I believe—I heard this only from individual officials whom I had known before—that they had to do this. They were not taken into the SS, but they received an official rank in the SS. It was probably Himmler’s idea that the SS and the police, both of which were under his leadership, should be amalgamated. How he contemplated that and how it worked out in detail I cannot say. Therefore, I may perhaps have stated some things incorrectly here, but I did it to the best of my knowledge.
DR. MERKEL: You said before that the 1933 officials of the political police existing at that time were taken into the state police. Was this done on the basis of a voluntary application by these officials, or were they commanded or transferred in individual cases without their concurrence?
GÖRING: You are not correct when you say that the officials of the former political police were simply incorporated into the Gestapo; on the contrary, in this sector the weeding out was very drastic, because it was a political police force, and up to then had contained representatives of those parties which were hostile and opposed to us. They had to be removed. Consequently new people came in, especially as its strength was considerably increased. These new officials were taken from the other police departments, from the criminal police and elsewhere, and, as I have already stated, were in some cases brought in from outside as new recruits, and our people were naturally given special consideration. To what extent normal transfers took place—whether Herr Müller was transferred from the criminal police to the Secret State Police, and whether he was asked about this, I really do not know. I believe not. I left that to the head of the Secret State Police. After I had set up the general directives, I could not be bothered with every single official in the criminal police.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know Obergruppenführer Müller, the Chief of Division IV in the Reich Main Security Office?
GÖRING: I knew him.
DR. MERKEL: Did you know that he and his immediate associates came from the Bavarian Political Police, as it existed before 1933?
GÖRING: I did not know that; I knew only that he came from Bavaria.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know that the Secret State Police did not take part in the disturbances on 9 November 1938?
GÖRING: It has always been my conviction that they did not take part in them. I saw a document here which instructed them not to intervene. I do not believe that they took part.
DR. MERKEL: If I understood you correctly, you said recently that on this 9th of November, after your return to Berlin, you at once called up the chief of the Gestapo. Did you make this call only because you wanted more precise information, or did you make it because you thought the Gestapo had taken an active part in these disturbances, had organized them and carried them out?
GÖRING: If I had been convinced that the Gestapo had instigated the disturbances I would certainly not have asked them for information. I gave the order to my collaborators through the police, and in this case through the Gestapo, because they had the necessary connections, or to the criminal police—it was all the same to me. I could address myself only to the Chief of Police, who was Heydrich, and say that I wanted a report quickly on what had happened; a report which merely stated the facts.
DR. MERKEL: It is correct that when you gave up your position as Chief of the Police to Himmler you made the statement that it was unworthy of a German official to ill-treat prisoners, and that you would not fail to deal most severely with any officials who were guilty of such acts?
GÖRING: The speech I made on this occasion is known and it contains such passages.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know that there was an order from the Reich Security Main Office—that is, issued after your resignation—which forbade any official or employee of the state police, under threat of the most severe punishment, to beat prisoners or ill-treat them?
GÖRING: It is possible. I no longer know what orders were issued after my resignation.
DR. MERKEL: Putting this question in the negative, is it known to you that there never was an order to manhandle prisoners or torture them, either at the time when you were chief of the Secret State Police or later?
GÖRING: I can only say with absolute certainty that I did not issue or permit any such order. I no longer know what was or was not issued in this connection at a later date or in provinces other than Prussia.
DR. MERKEL: Do you know anything to the effect that, contrary to these orders, such acts regularly took place in the Gestapo; or rather, if such an act did take place, did it have to do only with individual cases or individual excesses?
GÖRING: At the time when I was still directly connected with the Gestapo such excesses did, as I have openly stated, take place. In order to punish them, one naturally had to find out about them. Punishments were administered. The officials knew that if they did such things they ran the risk of being punished. A large number of them were punished. I cannot say what the practice was later.
DR. MERKEL: I have no more questions.
HERR LUDWIG BABEL (Counsel for SS): Witness, did the same conditions apply for the appointment of honorary leaders in the SS as in the SA?
GÖRING: Yes, I believe so.
HERR BABEL: Are you familiar with the directives or other regulations regarding the appointment of honorary leaders?
GÖRING: No.
HERR BABEL: Was it possible to refuse the appointment?
GÖRING: Yes, I believe so.
HERR BABEL: Do you know what the reasons were for the expansion of the Waffen-SS into the large permanent organization existing after 1939?
GÖRING: The first divisions of the Waffen-SS, which consisted of the best specially selected human material, fought with outstanding bravery in combat. Consequently the Führer gladly agreed to Himmler’s suggestion that still more divisions be set up. The Army and also the Air Force did make some protest, and quite rightly, because this creaming off of the best voluntary material meant that men of that type, who would have made equally good officers, were partly lost to the Army and the Air Force, and therefore they opposed this expansion. Also, in the beginning, the Führer was not very keen to have armed formations of any appreciable size outside the ranks of the Armed Forces, but he gave way more and more. When replacement difficulties became even more acute as the war went on, Himmler more or less deceived the Führer with the statement that he was in a position to provide a large number of SS divisions, that this would create a greater attraction for recruiting, and so on. This, of course, was welcome news to the Führer since he needed troops badly. But in point of fact already at that time Himmler was using altogether different methods which had not much in common with purely voluntary recruiting, and he created first of all on paper a number of new SS divisions and cadres. At that time he had not the men for this. He then told the Führer, “I have transferred my best Unterführer from the other SS divisions to these new ones.” For this and other reasons replacements in men did not flow in and the Army and the Air Force, especially the Air Force, were those who bore the brunt of this. I now had to help fill these SS divisions with men from the ground staffs and from the anti-aircraft batteries. This aroused much dissatisfaction among the men in the Air Force, because none of them wanted to volunteer for these formations. But in the end the Führer ordered that men be taken from the reserve units of the Army and, as far as I remember, from naval reserves also. I can speak only for that contingent which was taken from the Air Force by coercion and by command. I should estimate, without reference to official records, that there were at least about 50,000 men and officers. Then, because this aroused such strong feeling, I arranged that all men from the Air Force who were to be used for land fighting in the future should no longer go to the SS, but to the new parachute divisions which were to be formed. The Führer agreed, because in the last phase of the war the parachute divisions proved to be the most trusty and the most distinguished in the whole Armed Forces, and superior to the SS in fighting spirit and power of resistance. From then on no further contingents of the Air Force were incorporated into the SS, and, as far as I know, no more SS divisions were created.
HERR BABEL: I have no further questions.
DR. HANS LATERNSER: Witness, what was the attitude of the General Staff of the Army towards the possibility of being involved in a war with other powers?
GÖRING: Their attitude was, if I may say so, purely professional, that is to say, the General Staff had to study theoretically and practically all the possibilities and contingencies of a war. Its attitude toward its own tasks and conceptions was—I must say this openly—a very reticent and timid one for a general staff. This is probably to be attributed to the fact that most of the General Staff officers had come from the Reichswehr. The whole attitude of mind in this small Reichswehr during the last decade and a half was such that they could hardly imagine that a military clash might come, and consequently a much more pacific attitude than is normally the case with soldiers was to be found among the General Staff of the Army.
DR. LATERNSER: Do you know generals or admirals who urged and incited war?
GÖRING: No.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do the Chief Prosecutors wish to cross-examine?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You are perhaps aware that you are the only living man who can expound to us the true purposes of the Nazi Party and the inner workings of its leadership?
GÖRING: I am perfectly aware of that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You, from the very beginning, together with those who were associated with you, intended to overthrow, and later did overthrow, the Weimar Republic?
GÖRING: That was, as far as I am concerned, my firm intention.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And, upon coming to power, you immediately abolished parliamentary government in Germany?
GÖRING: We found it to be no longer necessary. Also I should like to emphasize the fact that we were moreover the strongest parliamentary party, and had the majority. But you are correct, when you say that parliamentary procedure was done away with, because the various parties were disbanded and forbidden.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You established the Leadership Principle, which you have described as a system under which authority existed only at the top, and is passed downwards and is imposed on the people below; is that correct?
GÖRING: In order to avoid any misunderstanding, I should like once more to explain the idea briefly, as I understand it. In German parliamentary procedure in the past responsibility rested with the highest officials, who were responsible for carrying out the anonymous wishes of the majorities, and it was they who exercised the authority. In the Leadership Principle we sought to reverse the direction, that is, the authority existed at the top and passed downwards, while the responsibility began at the bottom and passed upwards.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In other words, you did not believe in and did not permit government, as we call it, by consent of the governed, in which the people, through their representatives, were the source of power and authority?
GÖRING: That is not entirely correct. We repeatedly called on the people to express unequivocally and clearly what they thought of our system, only it was in a different way from that previously adopted and from the system in practice in other countries. We chose the way of a so-called plebiscite. We also took the point of view that even a government founded on the Leadership Principle could maintain itself only if it was based in some way on the confidence of the people. If it no longer had such confidence, then it would have to rule with bayonets, and the Führer was always of the opinion that that was impossible in the long run—to rule against the will of the people.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you did not permit the election of those who should act with authority by the people, but they were designated from the top downward continuously, were they not?
GÖRING: Quite right. The people were merely to acknowledge the authority of the Führer, or, let us say, to declare themselves in agreement with the Führer. If they gave the Führer their confidence, then it was their concern to exercise the other functions. Thus, not the individual persons were to be selected according to the will of the people, but solely the leadership itself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, was this Leadership Principle supported and adopted by you in Germany because you believed that no people are capable of self-government, or because you believed that some may be, not the German people; or that no matter whether some of us are capable of using our own system, it should not be allowed in Germany?
GÖRING: I beg your pardon, I did not quite understand the question, but I could perhaps answer it as follows:
I consider the Leadership Principle necessary because the system which previously existed, and which we called parliamentary or democratic, had brought Germany to the verge of ruin. I might perhaps in this connection remind you that your own President Roosevelt, as far as I can recall—I do not want to quote it word for word—declared, “Certain peoples in Europe have forsaken democracy, not because they did not wish for democracy as such, but because democracy had brought forth men who were too weak to give their people work and bread, and to satisfy them. For this reason the peoples have abandoned this system and the men belonging to it.” There is much truth in that statement. This system had brought ruin by mismanagement and according to my own opinion, only an organization made up of a strong, clearly defined leadership hierarchy could restore order again. But, let it be understood, not against the will of the people, but only when the people, having in the course of time, and by means of a series of elections, grown stronger and stronger, had expressed their wish to entrust their destiny to the National Socialist leadership.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The principles of the authoritarian government which you set up required, as I understand you, that there be tolerated no opposition by political parties which might defeat or obstruct the policy of the Nazi Party?
GÖRING: You have understood this quite correctly. By that time we had lived long enough with opposition and we had had enough of it. Through opposition we had been completely ruined. It was now time to have done with it and to start building up.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: After you came to power, you regarded it necessary, in order to maintain power, to suppress all opposition parties?
GÖRING: We found it necessary not to permit any more opposition, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you also held it necessary that you should suppress all individual opposition lest it should develop into a party of opposition?
GÖRING: Insofar as opposition seriously hampered our work of building up, this opposition of individual persons was, of course, not tolerated. Insofar as it was simply a matter of harmless talk, it was considered to be of no consequence.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, in order to make sure that you suppressed the parties, and individuals also, you found it necessary to have a secret political police to detect opposition?
GÖRING: I have already stated that I considered that necessary, just as previously the political police had existed, but on a firmer basis and larger scale.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And upon coming to power you also considered it immediately necessary to establish concentration camps to take care of your incorrigible opponents?
GÖRING: I have already stated that the reason for the concentration camps was not because it could be said, “Here are a number of people who are opposed to us and they must be taken into protective custody.” Rather they were set up as a lightning measure against the functionaries of the Communist Party who were attacking us in the thousands, and who, since they were taken into protective custody, were not put in prison. But it was necessary, as I said, to erect a camp for them—one, two, or three camps.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you are explaining, as the high authority of this system, to men who do not understand it very well, and I want to know what was necessary to run the kind of system that you set up in Germany. The concentration camp was one of the things you found immediately necessary upon coming into power, was it not? And you set them up as a matter of necessity, as you saw it?
GÖRING: That was faultily translated—it went too fast. But I believe I have understood the sense of your remarks. You asked me if I considered it necessary to establish concentration camps immediately in order to eliminate opposition. Is that correct?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Your answer is “yes,” I take it?
GÖRING: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Was it also necessary, in operating this system, that you must not have persons entitled to public trials in independent courts? And you immediately issued an order that your political police would not be subject to court review or to court orders, did you not?
GÖRING: You must differentiate between the two categories; those who had committed some act of treason against the new state, or those who might be proved to have committed such an act, were naturally turned over to the courts. The others, however, of whom one might expect such acts, but who had not yet committed them, were taken into protective custody, and these were the people who were taken to concentration camps. I am now speaking of what happened at the beginning. Later things changed a great deal. Likewise, if for political reasons—to answer your question—someone was taken into protective custody, that is, purely for reasons of state, this could not be reviewed or stopped by any court. Later, when some people were also taken into protective custody for nonpolitical reasons, people who had opposed the system in some other way, I once, as Prussian Prime Minister and Reich Minister of the Interior, I remember . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Let’s omit that. I have not asked for that. If you will just answer my question, we shall save a great deal of time. Your counsel will be permitted to bring out any explanations you want to make.
You did prohibit all court review and considered it necessary to prohibit court review of the causes for taking people into what you called protective custody?
GÖRING: That I answered very clearly, but I should like to make an explanation in connection with my answer.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Your counsel will see to that. Now, the concentration camps and the protective custody . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Justice Jackson, the Tribunal thinks the witness ought to be allowed to make what explanation he thinks right in answer to this question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The Tribunal thinks that you should be permitted to explain your answer now, and it will listen to your answers.
THE PRESIDENT: I did not mean that to apply generally to his answers. I meant it to apply to this particular answer.
GÖRING: In connection with your question that these cases could not be reviewed by the court, I want to say that a decree was issued through me and Frick jointly to the effect that those who were turned over to concentration camps were to be informed after 24 hours of the reason for their being turned over, and that after 48 hours, or some short period of time, they should have the right to an attorney. But this by no means rescinded my order that a review was not permitted by the courts of a politically necessary measure of protective custody. These people were simply to be given an opportunity of making a protest.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Protective custody meant that you were taking people into custody who had not committed any crimes but who, you thought, might possibly commit a crime?
GÖRING: Yes. People were arrested and taken into protective custody who had not yet committed any crime, but who could be expected to do so if they remained free, just as extensive protective measures are being taken in Germany today on a tremendous scale.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, it is also a necessity, in the kind of state that you had, that you have some kind of organization to carry propaganda down to the people and to get their reaction and inform the leadership of it, is it not?
GÖRING: The last part of that question has not been intelligibly translated.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you had to have organizations to carry out orders and to carry your propaganda in that kind of state, didn’t you?
GÖRING: Of course, we carried on propaganda, and for this we had a propaganda organization.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you carried that on through the Leadership Corps of the Nazi Party, did you not?
GÖRING: The Leadership Corps was there, of course, partly to spread our ideas among the people. Secondly, its purpose was to lead and organize the people who made up the Party.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Through your system of Gauleiter and Kreisleiter down to Blockleiter, commands and information went down from the authority, and information as to the people’s reactions came back to the leadership, didn’t it?
GÖRING: That is correct. The orders and commands that were to be given for propaganda or other purposes were passed down the grades as far as necessary. On the other hand, it was a matter of course that the reactions of the broad masses of the people were again transmitted upwards, through the various offices, in order to keep us informed of the mood of the people.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you also had to have certain organizations to carry out orders—executive organizations, organizations to fight for you if necessary, did you not?
GÖRING: Yes, administrative organizations were, of course, necessary. I do not quite understand—organizations to fight what?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, if you wanted certain people killed you had to have some organization that would kill them, didn’t you? Röhm and the rest of them were not killed by Hitler’s own hands nor by yours, were they?
GÖRING: Röhm—the Röhm affair I explained here clearly—that was a matter of State necessity . . .
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I did not ask you . . .
GÖRING: . . . and was carried out by the police.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But when it was State necessity to kill somebody, you had to have somebody to do it, didn’t you?
GÖRING: Yes, just as in other countries, whether it is called secret service or something else, I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the SA, the SS, and the SD, organizations of that kind, were the organizations that carried out the orders and dealt with people on a physical level, were they not?
GÖRING: The SA never received an order to kill anybody, neither did the SS, not in my time. Anyhow, I had no influence on it. I know that orders were given for executions, namely in the Röhm Putsch, and these were carried out by the police, that is, by a State organ.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What police?
GÖRING: As far as I recall, through the Gestapo. At any rate, that was the organization that received the order. You see, it was a fight against enemies of the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the SS was for the same purpose, was it not?
GÖRING: Not in north Germany at that time; to what extent that was the case in south Germany, where the Gestapo and the SS were still separated, and who carried out the action in south Germany, I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, the SS carried out arrests and carried out the transportation of people to concentration camps, didn’t they? You were arrested by the SS, weren’t you?
GÖRING: Yes, I say, yes; but later.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: At what time did the SS perform this function of acting as the executor of the Nazi Party?
GÖRING: After the seizure of power, when the police came to be more and more in the hands of Himmler. It is difficult for me to explain to an outsider where the SS or where the Gestapo was active. I have already said that the two of them worked very closely together. It is known that the SS guarded the camps and later carried out police functions.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And carried out other functions in the camps?
GÖRING: To what functions do you refer?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: They carried out all of the functions of the camps, didn’t they?
GÖRING: If an SS unit was guarding a camp and an SS leader happened to be the camp commander, then this unit carried out all the functions.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, this system was not a secret system. This entire system was openly avowed, its merits were publicly advocated by yourself and others, and every person entering into the Nazi Party was enabled to know the kind of system of government you were going to set up, wasn’t he?
GÖRING: Every person who entered the Party knew that we embraced the Leadership Principle and knew the fundamental measures we wanted to carry out, so far as they were stated in the program. But not everyone who joined the Party knew down to the last detail what was going to happen later.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But this system was set up openly and was well known, was it not, in every one of its details? As to organization, everybody knew what the Gestapo was, did they not?
GÖRING: Yes, everyone knew what the Gestapo was.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And what its program was in general, not in detail?
GÖRING: I explained that program clearly. At the very beginning I described that publicly, and I also spoke publicly of the tasks of the Gestapo, and I even wrote about it for foreign countries.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And there was nothing secret about the establishment of a Gestapo as a political police, about the fact, that people were taken into protective custody, about the fact that these were concentration camps? Nothing secret about those things, was there?
GÖRING: There was at first nothing secret about it at all.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: As a matter of fact, part of the effectiveness of a secret police and part of the effectiveness of concentration camp penalties is that the people do know that there are such agencies, isn’t it?
GÖRING: It is true that everyone knows that if he acts against the state he will end up in a concentration camp or will be accused, of high treason before a court, according to the degree of his crime. But the original reason for creating the concentration camps was to keep there such people whom we rightfully considered enemies of the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, that is the type of government—the government which we have just been describing—the only type of government which you think is necessary to govern Germany?
GÖRING: I should not like to say that the basic characteristic of this government and its most essential feature was the immediate setting up of the Gestapo and the concentration camps in order to take care of our opponents, but that over and above that we had set down as our government program a great many far more important things, and that those other things were not the basic principles of our government.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But all of these things were necessary things, as I understood you, for purposes of protection?
GÖRING: Yes, these things were necessary because of the opponents that existed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And I assume that that is the only kind of government that you think can function in Germany under present conditions?
GÖRING: Under the conditions existing at that time, it was, in my opinion, the only possible form, and it also demonstrated that Germany could be raised in a short time from the depths of misery, poverty, and unemployment to relative prosperity.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, all of this authority of the State was concentrated—perhaps I am taking up another subject. Is it the intent to recess at this time?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
[The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]