Morning Session
THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, have you concluded your interrogation?
GEN. RUDENKO: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the French Prosecution wish to ask any questions?
Dr. Stahmer, do you wish to examine further?
DR. STAHMER: No, Sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness can retire.
[The witness left the stand.]
DR. STAHMER: I call the next witness, Colonel of the Luftwaffe, Bernd von Brauchitsch.
[The witness Von Brauchitsch took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: What is your name?
BERND VON BRAUCHITSCH (Witness): Bernd von Brauchitsch.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat the oath after me. I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.
[The witness repeated the oath in German.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down if you wish.
DR. STAHMER: Witness, what position did you hold on the staff of the Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I was the first military adjutant of the Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe. I held the rank of chief adjutant. I had the job of making the daily arrangements as ordered by the Commander-in-Chief and working out the adjutants’ duty roster. The military position had to be reported daily; military reports and messages only to the extent that they were not communicated by the offices themselves. I had no command function.
DR. STAHMER: In the course of your work did you know that on 25 March 1944 from the prison camp of Sagan, Stalag Luft III, 75 English Air Force officers had escaped?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I knew of this as a special event, as at that time it was reported that a number of air force officers had escaped.
DR. STAHMER: Can you give us some information about the fate of these officers after their escape?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: The fate of these officers is not known to me.
DR. STAHMER: Were you not ever informed that 50 of these officers were shot ostensibly while trying to escape?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I heard only much later that a number of these officers were said to have been shot.
DR. STAHMER: Can you tell us under what circumstances these shootings were carried out?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I do not know anything about that.
DR. STAHMER: Did Reich Marshal Göring order the shooting, or did he have any part in these measures?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I know nothing about the Reich Marshal having taken part or given an order in this matter.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know of the attitude of Hitler with regard to the treatment of so-called terror-fliers who were shot down?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: In the spring of 1944 the number of civilian air-raid casualties by machine-gunning increased suddenly. These attacks were directed against civilians working in the fields; against secondary railroads and stations without any military importance; against pedestrians and cyclists, all within the homeland. This must have been the reason for Hitler giving not only defense orders, but also orders for measures against the fliers themselves. As far as I know, Hitler favored the most drastic measures. Lynching was said to be countenanced.
DR. STAHMER: What was the attitude of the Reich Marshal of the Luftwaffe to this order?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: The Commander-in-Chief and the Chief of the General Staff expressed their opinion that a most serious view must be taken of these attacks, which were directed solely against civilians. Notwithstanding, no special measure should be taken against these airmen. The suggestion that those who bailed out should be lynched and not afforded protection could not be agreed with. In view of Hitler’s instructions, the Luftwaffe was forced to deal with these questions. They endeavored to prevent these ideas of Hitler, of which they disapproved, from being put into practice. The solution was to pretend that measures would be taken which, however, were not actually carried out.
Then I was given the task, which was outside my competence, of conferring with the High Command of the Armed Forces about the definition of the term “terror-fliers.” All those cases which constituted violations of international law and criminal acts were the subject of subsequent discussions and correspondence. These definitions were meant to prevent lynching. The lengthy correspondence also shows the endeavors of the office to put the matter off. At the end of June 1944, the term “terror-fliers” was defined. The Stalag was instructed to report all cases of violation, but not to take any action. Thus we avoided giving an order of the character Hitler had wanted.
DR. STAHMER; In your opinion, therefore, could we say that the measures directed by Hitler were not carried out by the Luftwaffe?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes. It can be said that the measures directed by Hitler were not carried out. As confirmed by the commanders of the air fleets, their men did not receive any orders to shoot enemy airmen or to turn them over to the SD.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know anything about the Luftwaffe having received directives to take hostages or to shoot them?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I do not know of any directive or order dealing with hostages.
DR. STAHMER: Now one more question: Can you give us any information about the treatment of the five enemy airmen who in March 1945 bailed out over the Schorfheide and were captured?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: In March 1945, an American four-engined bomber was shot down after an attack over the Schorfheide. Part of the crew saved themselves by jumping. Some of them were injured and sent to a hospital. The observer, an American captain of the reserve, who in civilian life was a film director in Hollywood, on the following day was interrogated by the Reich Marshal himself about this mission and his bringing down.
DR. STAHMER: I have no more questions for this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defendants’ counsel wish to ask the witness any questions?
DR. LATERNSER: I have only a few questions for this witness.
[Turning to the witness.] What post did you hold when the war started?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: At the outbreak of war I was at the war academy and had just left my squadron.
DR. LATERNSER: Can one say that the outbreak of war caused a happy feeling among the professional soldiers? What was the mood like at that time?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: No, one cannot say that the outbreak of war was greeted with enthusiasm. Rather we faced the fact with great gravity. As young soldiers, we saw our mission in training and educating our men for the defense of our country.
DR. LATERNSER: What posts did you hold during the war? Were you ever on the staff of an air fleet?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I was never on the staff of an air fleet. Except for a short time, when I served as group commander, I was throughout adjutant of the Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe.
DR. LATERNSER: As chief adjutant, as you said before, to the Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, you had a lot of inside information about the Luftwaffe?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Insofar as material was available, yes.
DR. LATERNSER: Now, according to your inside information, did the chiefs of air fleets have any influence on political decisions or the conduct of the war?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: According to my information the chiefs of air fleets had no influence on any political decisions. Their job was the technical execution of the orders received, and orders on the conduct of the air war were given more and more by Hitler himself.
DR. LATERNSER: Did the chiefs of air fleets make any suggestions to use more severe methods in the conduct of the war?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I do not know of any suggestions of that kind made by chiefs of air fleets. They were professional soldiers who acted according to orders.
DR. LATERNSER: I have still one question: Was there any co-ordination between the branches of the Wehrmacht? Was this co-ordination of a purely official nature or did it go farther?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: There was co-ordination between the leading local authorities at the front; at a higher level it was effected by the Führer himself.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other defendant’s counsel wish to ask any questions? Do the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I would ask that the witness be shown Document Number 1156-PS of the United States documents.
[Document 1156-PS was submitted to the witness.]
Do you recognize this document, Witness?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: No, I do not know this document.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I call your attention to the date, the 20th of March 1941, and I call your attention to the fact that it purports to be a report to Reich Marshal Göring at the 19th of March 1941 meeting.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: While in the service I attended military conferences only if they did not take place at the Führer’s Headquarters, or if they were not personal discussions. I have not seen this document and I do not know the facts.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Let me call your attention to Item 2, which refers to you, I take it, and which reads:
“The directive worked out by the Wi regarding destructive measures to be undertaken by the Luftwaffe in Case Barbarossa was agreed to by the Reich Marshal. One copy was handed to Captain Von Brauchitsch for transmission to the General Staff of the Luftwaffe.”
And I ask you whether that states the facts.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I cannot remember these facts, neither can I give any information about the contents of the letter mentioned here.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You knew about Case Barbarossa, did you not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I did not hear about Case Barbarossa until the beginning of 1941. I was not present at the conferences.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you did know that certain destructive measures were planned to be undertaken in connection with that by the Luftwaffe, did you not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I know only of the first missions given to the Luftwaffe, and I recollect that attacks on airfields were ordered.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did it not also provide for attacks against cities, particularly St. Petersburg?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: To my recollection and knowledge, at the time this letter was written nothing was said about these targets but only about attacks on airfields, which were the main targets of the Luftwaffe.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I will ask that the witness be shown Document Number 735-PS, in evidence as Exhibit Number GB-151.
[Document 735-PS was submitted to the witness.]
That is in evidence and appears to be a most secret document of which only three copies were made, is that correct?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: May I read this letter first before I answer the question?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I call your attention first to the signature at the end of it and ask you if you recognize it?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: The signature is Warlimont.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was Warlimont?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Warlimont was the Deputy Chief of the Armed Forces Operations Staff.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you knew him well and he knew you well, is that not so?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I knew him by sight and on this occasion I spoke to him for the first time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: On the occasion of this meeting that is recorded in these minutes, is that the occasion when you first met and spoke to Warlimont?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: When I first spoke to him officially, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That was on the 6th of June 1944, when this meeting was held?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: According to this letter, yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, I call your attention to Paragraph Number 1 of the minutes of this meeting, from which it appears that Obergruppenführer Kaltenbrunner opened this meeting with a report that a conference on the question of the fliers had been held shortly before with the Reich Marshal, the Reich Foreign Minister and the Reich Führer SS. That is the opening of it, is it not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I know nothing of the record of this conference or even that it took place.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was the Reich Marshal at that time?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I remember the fact because on the 6th of June the invasion started and during the night of the 5th to the 6th I phoned Reich Marshal Göring himself at 0200 hours and informed him that the invasion had begun. In the morning he left Veldenstein for Klessheim in order to attend in the afternoon a conference there on the situation.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And this meeting is said to have been held in Klessheim on the afternoon of the 6th of June, is it not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I said once before that I do not know anything of the meeting as such and of the subject of the discussion.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Yes, I understand, you were not present. Göring was Reich Marshal; is that right?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Ribbentrop was Foreign Minister at that time, was he not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And who was the Reich Führer SS?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Himmler.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, it was as a result of that meeting at which the Foreign Minister—just follow the next sentence, “. . . the Foreign Minister who wished to include every type of terror attack on the native civilian population. . . .” It was agreed that this conference, which you did attend, was to take place; is that not the sense of the first paragraph?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: In the first place, I was not at this meeting and, secondly, I do not know anything about the subject as shown in evidence here.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, were you not at the meeting with Kaltenbrunner which Kaltenbrunner called?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I was not at the meeting with Kaltenbrunner which is mentioned here.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Despite the signature of Warlimont on these minutes which says you were?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: In spite of the signature. May I first read the whole document before I give a definite answer?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Read the last sentence. Witness, I may be misinterpreting this. It does not say you were present, but it does say that you gave them this information. I ask you to look at the last paragraph and say whether that is not true?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: The last paragraph of this document, above the signature, can only refer to a conference which, if I remember correctly, took place in the late afternoon of 6 June in General Warlimont’s quarters and which I have mentioned in my previous statement.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think I was confused about the two meetings and that these minutes do not show you to have been present. There was such a conference as Warlimont describes but it was not the same conference at which Kaltenbrunner was present, is that correct?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes, that is correct. I know only of this one meeting in the late afternoon of 6 June between Warlimont and myself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And that is the conference to which he refers in the first paragraph?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: No, the conference in the afternoon has nothing to do with the first paragraph which I just read, and has no connection with it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The third paragraph had no connection with the first meeting, you say?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Paragraph Number 3 has no connection with Paragraph Number 1. I had no knowledge of Paragraph Number 1. I mentioned before that I was given the task of conferring with the OKW about the definition of acts which were to be considered as violations of international law, and criminal acts.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Let us ask it once more so we will have no misunderstanding about it. The conference referred to in Paragraph Number 3 of Warlimont’s minutes is a conference between you and him later that afternoon and had nothing to do with the Kaltenbrunner conference which was held earlier in the day.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, what was the situation in the beginning of 1944 with reference to the bombing of German cities?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: The situation was that the air raids had increased in intensity and in the beginning of 1944 they were very heavy.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That was becoming very embarrassing to the Reich Marshal, was it not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Of course it was very unpleasant for the Luftwaffe, because their defensive strength was too weak to stave off these attacks.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And they were being blamed somewhat and the Reich Marshal was being blamed for the air attacks, was he not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Of course, that goes without saying.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the Reich Marshal was in the embarrassing position of having assured the German people back in 1939 that they could be protected against air attacks on the German cities. You understood that fact, did you not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I understand that to be so, but I also know that the conditions in 1939, which led to this statement, were entirely different from those of 1944 when the whole world was against us.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But the fact was that German cities were being bombed and the German people had looked to the Reich Marshal to protect them, is that not a fact?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: It is clear that the German people expected the Luftwaffe to use all available means to ward off these attacks.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, what were the relations between Göring and Hitler at this time?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: May I ask to have the question repeated? I did not understand it clearly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was the relation between Göring and Hitler at this time? Was there any change in the relations as this bombing of German cities progressed?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: The relations between the Reich Marshal and the Führer were no doubt worse than they had been before. Whether that was only due to the conditions caused by the air warfare is not known to me.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were very close to Reich Marshal Göring throughout this period, the entire period of the war, were you not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I do not know what you mean by close in the relations between a commander-in-chief and his adjutant.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you were particularly friendly; he had great confidence in you and you had great regard for him. Is that not a fact?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I can confirm that, but unfortunately only on very rare occasions did the Reich Marshal disclose his real motives.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were with him on the 20th day of April 1945, when he sent the telegram proposing to take over the government of Germany himself, and was arrested and condemned to death?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes, I was present at that time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the SS seized you and the Reich Marshal and several others and searched your houses, seized all your papers, and took you prisoner, did they not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: It is correct that on 23 April at 1900 hours we were surrounded. The Reich Marshal was led to his room and from that moment on he was kept closely guarded; later we were separated and put into solitary confinement. Finally we were separated from him altogether by SS troops stationed at the Berghof.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And this occurred at Berchtesgaden?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: It happened at Berchtesgaden.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I think you have told us that you were all supposed to be shot by the SS at the time of the surrender and were supposed to approve it by your own signature. Is that correct?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: No, that is not quite correct.
I know that an order existed that the Reich Marshal with his family and his entourage should be shot in Berlin at the time of capitulation.
The second thing you mentioned refers to something else, namely, that we were to be compelled to report voluntarily to the SS. I must say, in order to be just, that this SS leader would far rather not have had us there at that time so as not to have to carry out this order. At that time we were already separated from the Commander-in-Chief.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was the state of your knowledge about the activities of the SS? What was the SS and what was its relation to the Wehrmacht at this time? What was its relation to the Luftwaffe? Tell us about the SS.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I can only say this much, that SS was a comprehensive term, that the SD, Gestapo, and Waffen-SS were quite separate subdivisions, and that the Gestapo was an instrument of repression which restricted much personal freedom.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the Waffen-SS likewise, is that not a fact?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: The Waffen-SS was a military force. I myself had neither trouble nor any friction with them.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But what about the SS proper? Witness, you know this situation about the SS, I am sure, and you impress me as wanting to tell us candidly what you know about this situation, and I wish you would tell us a little, what the influence of the SS was on these situations.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I pointed out once before that as a purely military adjutant I am able to give you information only about the Luftwaffe, but I am not in a position to say anything about general things of which I have no expert knowledge but merely personal opinions.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, was not the SS the subject of a good deal of discussion among you officers, and was not everybody aware that the SS was an organization like the Gestapo which was repressive and cruel?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: In the Luftwaffe we had so many troubles of our own because of the growing air power of the enemy that we had no time to worry about anything else.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: But you knew, did you not, about the campaign against the Jews of Germany and the Jews of occupied countries?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I did not know about the campaign against the Jews as it has been presented here and in the press.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, I do not want to interrogate you on what is in the press, but do you want the Tribunal to understand that you had no knowledge of a campaign against the Jews in Germany?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I only knew that some of the Jews were taken to ghettos. I had, however, no knowledge of the cruelties against Jews as now published in the press.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Your father was Field Marshal, was he not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: At what period was he Field Marshal?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Field Marshal is a military rank which he held from 1940 until now.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He has never been deprived of his rank, is that a fact?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: He was never deprived of his rank.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: There came a time when your father, as you know, disagreed with Hitler as to military programs?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I know that my father had great difficulties with Hitler concerning political and military questions, and that this led to his retirement in December 1941.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you not say to the interrogator who examined you for the United States that he retired from active command in 1941?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And what did you understand to be the reason for his retirement?
You gave the reasons as follows, that neither in the military nor in the political considerations did he see eye to eye with Hitler, and could not come to any accord and, since he could not make his own opinions prevail, he desired to manifest his dissent by resigning, and that specifically also referred to religious questions.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is true, is it not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: That is correct, and I still maintain it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I hope you are proud of it.
You were also asked this:
“And from 1941 to the end of the war, do you know what he was doing?”
And you answered:
“Well, he had, through his second marriage, a little house in a small town in Silesia, Bockenheim, and he occupied himself with studies of family history and also with forestry, economics, and hunting, but did not take part . . .”
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Only with questions of military history and agriculture.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Beg pardon. I did not get that.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: He was interested only in economic questions and hunting, but not in military questions.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Not in military, yes.
“. . . but did not take part in any sort of bloody political endeavors.”
You said that, did you not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: May I ask to hear the question once more.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: This is your answer in full. You interrupted me. This is your answer to the interrogator:
“Well, he had, through his second marriage, a little house in a small town in Silesia, Bockenheim, and he occupied himself with studies of family history and also with forestry, economics and hunting, but did not take part in any sort of bloody political endeavors.”
And, with, the exception of economics, you still stand by that answer, do you not?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I have never said that he ever took part in bloody things. It must be an error. I never saw this record again. I did not sign it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I have not made myself clear. You said he did not take part in any bloody political endeavors. That is what this says you said.
VON BRAUCHITSCH: He did not take part; but I did not say anything of a bloody movement.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You did not use these terms in the examination?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: No, I cannot remember having said that. I did not sign the protocol and I did not see it again after the interrogation.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you say that you did not use these words on the 26th of February 1946 to Captain Horace Hahn, interrogator?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I say I did not use the words “take part in any bloody endeavors,” et cetera, because that expression is foreign to me. Neither do I know in what connection it is supposed to have occurred.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, you do not know of any that he did partake in, do you?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: No. My father retired.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Absolutely from this whole Nazi outfit. He disassociated himself from them and retired to a little village rather than go on with the program he did not agree with, did he not? Is that not a fact?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: Yes.
HERR HORST PELCKMANN (Counsel for SS): I believe that I have no longer any formal right to question this witness after Justice Jackson has cross-examined him, but I should be grateful if I might be permitted to do so since Justice Jackson questioned the witness also about the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness’ statement about the SS was that he knew nothing about it. What ground does it give for a cross-examination by you?
HERR PELCKMANN: He was asked whether he was guarded by the SS on Obersalzberg who also had the order to shoot him and Göring too. I should like to have it made clear whether that was SS or SD.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
HERR PELCKMANN: I therefore ask the witness: Do you know whether these people whom you have just mentioned were members of the SS or SD? Do you know the difference, Witness?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I have a general idea of the difference. I believe that the troops which had the task of guarding us were SS, but that the Sicherheitsdienst (SD) had been given the special order.
HERR PELCKMANN: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other counsel for the Prosecution wish to cross-examine?
Dr. Stahmer, do you wish to re-examine?
DR. STAHMER: I have only two short questions.
Colonel Von Brauchitsch, can you tell us something about the relations between the Reich Marshal and Himmler?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: As far as I know and am able to give information, in their outward relations Himmler and Göring exercised the utmost circumspection, but there was no real personal contact between the two.
DR. STAHMER: Can you tell us whether the German people, until the last moment, still had confidence in Reich Marshal Göring, and showed it on special occasions? Can you mention any particular instances?
VON BRAUCHITSCH: I can mention two cases.
The first one was at the end of 1944 or the beginning of 1945—I cannot say the exact date—in a public air raid shelter. The Reich Marshal had no guards or escort and chatted with the people, and they greeted him with the old cry, “Hermann, halt’ die Ohren steif! (Hermann, keep your chin up).”
Another example was on the trip from Berlin to Berchtesgaden during the night of the 20th to 21st April. In the morning or towards noon of the 21st the Reich Marshal arrived at a town in Sudetengau, where he made a short stop for breakfast at an inn. After a short while the market place became so crowded with people asking for his autograph, that we could not get his car through the crowd. Here too, he was greeted by the old cry, “Hermann.”
DR. STAHMER: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. STAHMER: As next witness, I call State Secretary Paul Körner.
[The witness Körner took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Is your name Paul Körner?
PAUL KÖRNER (Witness): Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.
[The witness repeated the oath in German.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down if you wish.
DR. STAHMER: Witness, what official post did you hold before the capitulation?
KÖRNER: I was State Secretary in the Prussian State Ministry.
DR. STAHMER: In this capacity were you one of the Reich Marshal’s close collaborators?
KÖRNER: Yes.
DR. STAHMER: When did you first meet the Reich Marshal?
KÖRNER: In 1926.
DR. STAHMER: When were you selected by him to collaborate?
KÖRNER: At the end of 1931.
DR. STAHMER: In what capacity?
KÖRNER: I became his secretary.
DR. STAHMER: When were you taken over by the Civil Service?
KÖRNER: In April 1933. Pardon; the previous date was 1931.
THE PRESIDENT: The translator said the previous date was 1931; which date was 1931?
DR. STAHMER: In 1931 he first came into contact with Göring and became his private secretary. In 1933 he entered the Civil Service.
DR. STAHMER: What post was given to you?
KÖRNER: I became State Secretary in the Prussian State Ministry.
DR. STAHMER: What do you know about the institution of the Secret State Police, the Gestapo?
KÖRNER: In the first months after the seizure of power the Secret State Police evolved from the Political Police Department Ia. Basically the Political Police Department remained; it was only reorganized under the name of Secret State Police.
DR. STAHMER: What was its range of activities?
KÖRNER: Its main task was to watch the enemies of the State.
DR. STAHMER: Have you any information about the establishment of concentration camps?
KÖRNER: I know that at that time concentration camps were established.
DR. STAHMER: What purposes did they serve?
KÖRNER: They were supposed to receive enemies of the State.
DR. STAHMER: What do you mean by “receive”?
KÖRNER: Elements hostile to the State, mainly Communists, were to be concentrated in these camps.
DR. STAHMER: And what was to be done with them there?
KÖRNER: They were to be taken into protective custody, and, as far as I remember, they were also to be re-educated so that later on they could be incorporated into the community of the people.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know anything of the treatment meted out to the inmates?
KÖRNER: As far as I know, the treatment was always good.
DR. STAHMER: Did you ever hear anything about unauthorized concentration camps?
KÖRNER: Yes, in 1933, in various places unauthorized concentration camps were established.
DR. STAHMER: By whom?
KÖRNER: I remember that one was established in Breslau by SA Gruppenführer Heines; and one in Stettin. Whether there were any others, I do not know.
DR. STAHMER: In Stettin?
KÖRNER: I think it was Karpfenstein, but I cannot say for certain.
DR. STAHMER: And what became of these camps?
KÖRNER: When the Reich Marshal heard about them he had them instantly disbanded because they were established without his permission.
DR. STAHMER: What was the Reich Marshal’s attitude when he heard of complaints?
KÖRNER: He always followed them up immediately.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know of any case where he took specially strong measures?
KÖRNER: Yes, I can remember the case of Thälmann.
DR. STAHMER: What happened in that case?
KÖRNER: It had come to the Reich Marshal’s knowledge that Thälmann had not been treated in the way the Reich Marshal wished. He immediately followed the matter up and had Thälmann brought to him.
DR. STAHMER: Who was Thälmann?
KÖRNER: Thälmann was one of the leaders of the Communist Party and a communist member of the Reichstag.
DR. STAHMER: And how did the Reich Marshal speak to Thälmann?
KÖRNER: He had him brought into his office and asked him to tell him exactly why he had made a complaint.
DR. STAHMER: And then?
KÖRNER: Thälmann was very reticent at first, because he feared a trap. When the Reich Marshal spoke to him in a humane manner, he realized that he could speak freely. He told the Reich Marshal that on several occasions he had not been treated properly. The Reich Marshal promised him immediate redress and gave the necessary instructions. He also asked Thälmann to notify him immediately if it happened again. In addition he ordered that any complaints made by Thälmann should be passed on to him.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know how long the Reich Marshal was in charge of the Gestapo in the concentration camps?
KÖRNER: Until the spring of 1934; I believe it was March or April.
DR. STAHMER: Under whom did they come then?
KÖRNER: By order of the Führer, they came under the competence of Reichsführer Himmler.
DR. STAHMER: What do you know about the events in connection with the Röhm revolt on 30 June 1934?
KÖRNER: That a Röhm revolt was planned I heard when I was with the Reich Marshal in Essen, where we were attending the wedding of Gauleiter Terboven. During the wedding festivities Himmler arrived and made a report to the Führer. Later the Führer drew the Reich Marshal aside and told him in confidence of Röhm’s designs.
DR. STAHMER: Do you also know what he told him?
KÖRNER: I can only say that what Himmler told the Führer was also brought to Göring’s knowledge.
DR. STAHMER: Do you not know any further details?
KÖRNER: No, I do not know any further details, but I think that is sufficient.
DR. STAHMER: What instructions did Göring receive?
KÖRNER: The Führer instructed Göring to return to Berlin immediately after the wedding festivities, and the Führer went to southern Germany to investigate the reports personally.
DR. STAHMER: When was this wedding?
KÖRNER: As far as I remember, it was 2 days before the Röhm Putsch.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know whether, on the day after the Röhm Putsch, the Reich Marshal was with Hitler?
KÖRNER: No. The Reich Marshal was in Berlin. We returned to Berlin the same evening.
DR. STAHMER: And on the day after the Röhm Putsch on 30 June, that is on 1 July?
KÖRNER: The Reich Marshal was in Berlin.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know whether there was a conversation between him and Hitler?
KÖRNER: Yes. I remember that the Reich Marshal drove to the Reich Chancellery to report several things to the Führer. In particular the Reich Marshal had heard that on this occasion innocent people also might have or rather had fallen victim. Therefore, he wanted to ask the Führer to stop the whole action immediately.
DR. STAHMER: Was that done?
KÖRNER: Yes, that was done.
DR. STAHMER: In what way?
KÖRNER: After the report of the Reich Marshal, the Führer himself issued an order that no further unauthorized action should take place, that the action was over, and if any guilty people were still found they should be brought before the ordinary courts which would decide whether or not proceedings should be brought against these people.
DR. STAHMER: Do you know whether the Reich Marshal had anything to do with the action against the Jews during the night of 9 November 1938?
KÖRNER: No, the Reich Marshal had definitely nothing to do with it and had no inkling of it.
DR. STAHMER: How do you know?
KÖRNER: Because I was with the Reich Marshal on 9 November in Munich—he was always there on that day. The same evening we went to Berlin. Had the Reich Marshal known anything about it, he would certainly have told me or those who were with him. He had no inkling.
DR. STAHMER: When did he find out about it?
KÖRNER: Shortly before he arrived in Berlin, or at the Anhalter Station in Berlin.
DR. STAHMER: Through whom?
KÖRNER: Through his adjutant.
DR. STAHMER: And how did he take the news?
KÖRNER: He was furious when he received the report, because he was strongly opposed to the whole action.
DR. STAHMER: And what did he do about it?
KÖRNER: He got in touch with the Führer immediately to ask for the action to be stopped at once.
DR. STAHMER: What were your tasks within the framework of the Four Year Plan?
KÖRNER: I was Chief of the Office of the Four Year Plan.
DR. STAHMER: What were your tasks?
KÖRNER: The management and supervision of that office.
DR. STAHMER: How did the Four Year Plan come about? When and how did it start?
KÖRNER: The official Four Year Plan was announced in October 1936, but its origin goes back to the food crisis of 1935. In the autumn of 1935 the Reich Marshal received the order from the Führer . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, try not to go quite so fast. It is very difficult to get the translation.
KÖRNER: Yes, Sir.
In the autumn of 1935 the Reich Marshal received the order from the Führer to make the food for the German people secure, as the food situation was serious because of the bad harvests of 1934 and 1935. At the time we were short of at least 2 million tons of bread-grain and several hundred thousand tons of fat, which had to be procured by some means or other.
The Reich Marshal solved this problem satisfactorily, and this led the Führer to ask him for suggestions as to how the entire German economy could be made proof against crises. These suggestions were worked out in the first half of 1936 and by midsummer were submitted to the Führer.
These suggestions gave the Führer the idea of a Four Year Plan, which he announced on Party Day 1936. On 18 October 1936 the Führer issued a decree appointing the Reich Marshal Delegate of the Four Year Plan.
DR. STAHMER: What were the aims of the Four Year Plan?
KÖRNER: As I said before, to make [the] German economy proof against crises. The main tasks were to increase German exports to the utmost, and to cover any deficits as far as possible by increased production, particularly in the agricultural sphere.
DR. STAHMER: Did the Four Year Plan also serve rearmament?
KÖRNER: Of course it also served the rebuilding of the German Wehrmacht indirectly.
DR. STAHMER: Did the Four Year Plan also provide for the allocation of labor?
KÖRNER: Yes. The Four Year Plan provided for the appointment of a General Plenipotentiary for the Allocation of Labor. The former president of the Reich Labor Office, President Syrup, was appointed Plenipotentiary General.
DR. STAHMER: When was he appointed?
KÖRNER: That was at the beginning of the Four Year Plan, in the autumn of 1936.
DR. STAHMER: What were his particular tasks?
KÖRNER: He had to regulate the allocation of labor and thus put an end to the great muddle on the labor market.
DR. STAHMER: How long did Syrup remain in office?
KÖRNER: Syrup left in the spring of 1942 for reasons of health.
DR. STAHMER: Who became his successor?
KÖRNER: His successor was Gauleiter Sauckel.
DR. STAHMER: Who appointed Sauckel?
KÖRNER: Sauckel was appointed by the Führer.
DR. STAHMER: And what was his task?
KÖRNER: His main task as Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor was to regulate labor.
DR. STAHMER: Under whom did he work?
KÖRNER: He was formally under the Delegate of the Four Year Plan, but he received his instructions straight from the Führer.
DR. STAHMER: What was your part in it?
KÖRNER: In the spring of 1942 I ceased to have any influence over the allocation of labor, since Sauckel received his directions straight from the Führer and carried them out accordingly.
DR. STAHMER: Did you not have any more dealings with Sauckel?
KÖRNER: No; there were no more dealings as far as I remember, because he received his directions from the Führer.
DR. STAHMER: Who allocated the manpower?
KÖRNER: The labor exchanges allocated the manpower and were under Sauckel.
DR. STAHMER: What were the relations between the Reich Marshal and Himmler?
KÖRNER: They were not very cordial. There was frequent tension and mutual confidence was completely lacking.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other defendants’ counsel wish to ask any questions?
[There was no response.]
Do the Prosecution wish to ask any questions?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In your testimony you made some references to a conversation between Göring and Thälmann.
KÖRNER: Yes, I did.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Will you tell us when that occurred?
KÖRNER: That must have been in the summer of 1933.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In the summer of 1933? Was that before or after the Reichstag fire?
KÖRNER: That was after the Reichstag fire.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Thälmann was accused in the Reichstag fire trial and acquitted by the court, was he not?
KÖRNER: I cannot remember that very well.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you remember it at all? Do you remember that he was accused?
KÖRNER: I can no longer remember whether he was accused. It may be.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know where he died?
KÖRNER: No, I do not know.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know that he was interned in Buchenwald after the Reichstag fire and remained there until he died in 1944? Did you know that?
KÖRNER: Yes, I remember it was said he was a victim of an air attack.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And where was he when he was caught in this air attack?
KÖRNER: Where was Thälmann? I did not quite understand the question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Where was he when he became a victim of an air attack?
KÖRNER: As far as I heard, he was said to be in the Buchenwald concentration camp.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And how long had he been there?
KÖRNER: That I do not know; I have no knowledge of that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you present at the conversation between Thälmann and Göring?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What did he complain about then in the concentration camp?
KÖRNER: About treatment during interrogations.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That was the only complaint he made?
KÖRNER: Yes, as far as I can remember. The Reich Marshal asked him whether he had good food and whether he was properly treated. All these things were discussed.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Thälmann found no fault with the concentration camp except treatment during interrogation?
KÖRNER: Yes; as far as I remember that was his chief complaint.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were the Communists regarded by the Nazis as enemies of the country?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And concentration camps, then, were built to receive Communists among others, were they not?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Jews?
KÖRNER: Yes, as far as they were known to be enemies of the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were Jews also regarded as enemies of the State?
KÖRNER: Generally not; only when they had been recognized as such.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Recognized as such—what, as Jews?
KÖRNER: No, if a Jew was recognized as an enemy of the State, he was treated as an enemy of the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was the test as to whether he was an enemy of the State?
KÖRNER: Well, his attitude, his active participation in actions hostile to the State.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Such as what? What actions?
KÖRNER: I cannot give any details. I was not Chief of the Gestapo, and therefore I do not know any details.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you not with Göring as his secretary during the time he was Chief of the Gestapo?
KÖRNER: In April 1933 I became State Secretary in the Prussian State Ministry.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you not have to do with concentration camps under the secret police as such?
KÖRNER: No, I had nothing to do with that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who handled that for Göring?
KÖRNER: The then Ministerialdirektor Diels.
MR; JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you know that, in setting up the Secret State Police, Göring used SS men to man the Gestapo?
KÖRNER: I cannot remember that any more.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were a member of the SS, were you not?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was your office in the SS?
KÖRNER: I never held any office in the SS, neither was I in charge of an SS formation. I was just a member of the SS.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Were you not Obergruppenführer?
KÖRNER: Yes, I was an SS-Obergruppenführer.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, as to these unauthorized concentration camps, you were asked who set them up, and I do not think you answered. Will you tell us about who set up these concentration camps?
KÖRNER: I remember two camps. In the case of one, I know for certain it was Gruppenführer Heines, in Breslau.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Gruppenführer of what?
KÖRNER: SA-Gruppenführer Heines, in Breslau.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was the other?
KÖRNER: I cannot say exactly. I believe it was Karpfenstein, but I am not sure of it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was he?
KÖRNER: Karpfenstein was Gauleiter in Stettin.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the Gauleiter was a Party official?
KÖRNER: Yes, he was a Party official.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the concentration camps were designed to take care of not only enemies of the State but enemies of the Party, were they not?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: The Prime Minister of Prussia was the Chief of the Secret State Police?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And in his absence the State Secretary of the State Ministry was to act as Chief of the Secret State Police?
KÖRNER: No, that was Diels.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Was that not the law, whatever was done about it? Did you not know that that was the law under which the Secret State Police was set up, Section 1, Paragraph 2?
KÖRNER: I cannot remember that law any more. I no longer know the details.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know the law of 30 November 1933? You do not know the law under which you were operating?
KÖRNER: I do not remember that law now. I would have to see it again.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, what was wrong with these concentration camps that they had to be closed down?
KÖRNER: These unauthorized concentration camps had been established without permission of the then Prussian Prime Minister and for that reason he prohibited them immediately.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is the only reason, that they were set up without this authority?
KÖRNER: I believe so; yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And he had them stopped immediately?
KÖRNER: Stopped; yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Göring did not tolerate concentration camps that were not under his control and the Führer backed him up in it, is that right?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, from time to time complaints came to you about the treatment of people in concentration camps, during all the time you were with Göring, did they not?
KÖRNER: Yes, there were frequent complaints.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What did they complain of?
KÖRNER: Various things.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Tell the Tribunal what the complaints were with which you had to deal.
KÖRNER: Well, mostly from relatives of the people taken to concentration camps whose release was applied for; or complaints that these people had been taken to a concentration camp without reason.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is, that they were innocent people, innocent of any offense?
KÖRNER: The relatives asserted this.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you do anything to get them released from concentration camps?
KÖRNER: The Reich Marshal had ordered that all complaints were to be replied to. Every case was followed up at once.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did you find that many of these people were innocent, or did you find that they were guilty?
KÖRNER: If anybody was found to have been wrongly taken to a concentration camp he was released immediately.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And to whom was the communication given, that he had been found innocent and was to be released from the concentration camp?
KÖRNER: It was given to the Secret State Police.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: To whom at the Secret State Police? Who was the man you communicated with?
KÖRNER: I cannot name the individual who dealt with these matters. The chief, as far as I remember, was first Heydrich and then Kaltenbrunner or Müller.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Göring was on good terms with all of those, was he not?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well acquainted with all of those men?
KÖRNER: Of course.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, when you say that Göring obtained the release of people from concentration camps, are you talking about just one or two cases or did he obtain the release of a good many people?
KÖRNER: In the course of the years, there were naturally several cases.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What do you mean by “several”?
KÖRNER: Well, I cannot give the number now, but there were quite a lot of releases.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you find any where the people were guilty when you investigated?
KÖRNER: If they could not be released, then they were guilty somehow.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who decided that?
KÖRNER: That, as far as I know, was decided by the chief men of the Secret State Police.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, then, what did you do in requesting their release? Did you advise the Secret State Police that you disagreed with their conclusion that the man was guilty, or did Göring simply order the man to be released or request his release?
KÖRNER: No, they were told the exact reason why the man should be released.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know of any instance in which Göring requested the release of a person from a concentration camp, where it was not granted?
KÖRNER: I cannot say that now. I have to think it over.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You cannot recall any today, can you, in which Göring’s word requesting a release was not honored?
KÖRNER: At the moment I cannot remember any particular case.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How many people were put in concentration camps as a result of the Röhm revolt?
KÖRNER: That I cannot say either.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How many people were killed as a result of it?
KÖRNER: I cannot say from memory. As far as I know, the figures were published at the time.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, would it be a couple of hundred people that were killed for it?
KÖRNER: I should not like to tie myself to a figure, because I may be wrong.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, it was a very large number of people was it not?
KÖRNER: No, I am sure it was not a very large number.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Give a figure.
KÖRNER: The number was published at the time. This could still be checked.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Well, why did the Reich Marshal want Hitler to stop punishing the people who had been a party to the Röhm revolt?
KÖRNER: I did not quite understand the question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I understood your testimony to be that the Reich Marshal went to Hitler at some time and wanted this campaign against people who were in the Röhm revolt to be stopped. And I want to know why he wanted it stopped?
KÖRNER: In order to prevent innocent people being involved. Only the really guilty were to be caught and punished accordingly. It was clear that someone or other might seize this opportunity to take personal revenge and do away with his enemy, and in order to prevent this the action should be stopped immediately and only ordinary courts should deal with the matter.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was in charge of the selection of the people who were shot or otherwise killed as a result of the Röhm revolt?
KÖRNER: The Führer himself.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And the Reich Marshal had sufficient influence to stop that immediately when he complained?
KÖRNER: At that time, yes, the Reich Marshal definitely had sufficient influence.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: In connection with this Four Year Plan you said that it was its function to regulate the confusion in the labor market?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you represented the Reich Marshal at many meetings, did you not?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And was not one of your functions to get prisoners of war to work in the armament industry and other industries that needed labor?
KÖRNER: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You never had anything to do with that?
KÖRNER: No. The Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor of course applied for prisoners of war for labor.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You attended many meetings when that was discussed, did you not?
KÖRNER: I cannot recall that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did you report to the Reich Marshal what happened at those meetings?
KÖRNER: When questions of a general nature were discussed, a report was made and submitted to the Reich Marshal.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were a member of the Central Planning Board, were you not?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you were representing the Reich Marshal on that Board?
KÖRNER: No. I did not represent the Reich Marshal there. It was a board of three men—Minister Speer, Field Marshal Milch and myself. The Central Planning Board was set up in the spring of 1942.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who appointed you?
KÖRNER: The three of us were appointed to the Central Planning Board.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who appointed you?
KÖRNER: As far as I remember, Göring.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you reported to him, did you not, what occurred from time to time?
KÖRNER: The Central Planning Board was merely an office for the distribution of raw materials. We usually met every 3 months in order to fix the quotas for the following quarter. Previously the office of the Four Year Plan, in co-operation with the Minister of Economics, handled the distribution and, from the spring of 1942 on, the Central Planning Board handled it in the interests of armament.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, do you want us to understand that the Central Planning Board only met every 3 months?
KÖRNER: Yes, approximately. In very rare cases another meeting was called, especially if there were urgent problems to be solved. I remember, for instance, the case when it was said that agriculture was not getting enough nitrogen and that if the nitrogen quota were too small, agricultural production would suffer. In view of this State Secretary Backe asked for a meeting to be called and this took place at the Central Planning Board office.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Would you testify that Sauckel did not report to the Central Planning Board, at a meeting at which you were present, that out of all the labor that came to Germany only 200,000 came voluntarily—out of the millions who came only 200,000 came voluntarily?
KÖRNER: I cannot remember that.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you say that the Central Planning Board never discussed labor questions?
KÖRNER: At the Central Planning Board only demands for labor were submitted, and the quota holders to whom raw materials were allocated also demanded the necessary labor. Only very rough figures were given and then passed on to the Plenipotentiary General for the Allocation of Labor.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What about prisoners of war?
KÖRNER: With these the Central Planning Board was not at all concerned, as it was given only rough figures. For instance, if some branch of industry needed so many thousand workers, they were asked for.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What about concentration camp labor?
KÖRNER: The distribution of labor was dealt with by the labor exchanges. The Central Planning Board had nothing to do with it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Are you familiar with a letter dated 9 March 1944, reciting that 36,000 concentration camp prisoners were now being used and wanting an increase to 90,000?
KÖRNER: I do not know about these demands.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know about the use of Russian prisoners of war in manning anti-aircraft guns?
KÖRNER: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: After Göring closed the unauthorized concentration camps, did you know that the number of concentration camps increased very greatly in Germany?
KÖRNER: This I do not know. What happened after they were turned over to Himmler is beyond my knowledge. It may be that a large number of concentration camps was then set up.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: How do you come to know about Göring’s relations with Himmler? Did he tell you?
KÖRNER: Göring once spoke about it, and I concluded that the relations were not at all good.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know about the appointment of Kaltenbrunner as head of the Austrian State Police after the Anschluss?
KÖRNER: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you know who obtained that appointment for Kaltenbrunner?
KÖRNER: No, I have no idea.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, you say that Göring and you were in Munich on the night or nights of the anti-Jewish riots in Germany?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Was Goebbels also there?
KÖRNER: No.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Go ahead; do you want to say something else?
KÖRNER: On 9 November we traveled from Munich to Berlin, so Goebbels could not be there then.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Why could he not be there?
KÖRNER: Because the Reich Marshal, with his entourage, traveled in his train to Berlin.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I mean, did you know that Goebbels was in Munich before these uprisings?
KÖRNER: Yes, that I heard afterwards—that Goebbels was in Munich. All National Socialist leaders were in Munich because 9 November was a day when all of them met.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Goebbels spoke in Munich on the Jewish question that night, did he not?
KÖRNER: That I do not know. I do not remember the speech.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Göring was there to attend the meeting of the National Socialist leaders, was he not?
KÖRNER: Yes, on 9 November the entire leadership of the National Socialist Party met in Munich. It was an anniversary meeting.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Göring attended regularly?
KÖRNER: Of course he did.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you did?
KÖRNER: I did also.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Now, Hess attended?
KÖRNER: As I said, all National Socialist leaders always attended if they possibly could. Nobody ever failed to attend unless he were ill, or prevented by official duties.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Which of the defendants in the dock attended those meetings? Ribbentrop, of course?
KÖRNER: Ribbentrop, certainly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Keitel?
KÖRNER: I assume so.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Kaltenbrunner?
KÖRNER: I never saw Kaltenbrunner, because Kaltenbrunner held a public post only during the latter years, and during these years the meetings were not as regular as before.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Rosenberg, of course, was there?
KÖRNER: Of course, as I said before.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Frank and Frick?
KÖRNER: Certainly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And Streicher?
KÖRNER: Not during the latter years, I do not think so; but previously he attended.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: When was that, during the latter years?
KÖRNER: As far as I know, Streicher did not attend during the latter years, but I do not know for certain.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He attended in November 1938 when the anti-Jewish uprisings took place, did he not?
KÖRNER: I believe so, because at that time Streicher was still in Nuremberg.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He was very active, was he not?
KÖRNER: I did not understand the question quite correctly.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: He was very active in the anti-Jewish matters, was he not?
KÖRNER: Yes; this is generally known.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And did he see Funk at those meetings?
KÖRNER: I believe that Funk frequently attended these meetings.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was the subject considered at this meeting of 9 November, the night of the anti-Jewish uprising?
KÖRNER: I do not know of any discussions as there was always a fixed program on that day, and I did not know about anything else, nor can the Reich Marshal have known.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Who was the adjutant who informed him on his arrival the next morning that something had happened during the night?
KÖRNER: This I cannot say exactly as the adjutants were always changing. I only know that an adjutant came and reported.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What did he say that happened?
KÖRNER: He reported that during the night anti-Jewish riots had taken place and were still going on; that shop windows had been smashed, goods thrown into the streets. Göring was infuriated about this.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: What was he infuriated about?
KÖRNER: About the riots.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You mean that he was taking the part of the Jews?
KÖRNER: About the entire action.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You mean that he was taking the part of the Jews?
KÖRNER: Göring always showed a different attitude to the Jewish question.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You just tell us what it was. You may go into all details. Tell us what his attitude was.
KÖRNER: He always showed a moderate attitude towards the Jews.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Such as fining them a billion Reichsmark right after the fire, right after these outrages? You know that he did that, do you not?
KÖRNER: Yes. The Führer demanded it.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You know that the Führer is dead, do you not? Do you know that for a fact?
KÖRNER: Yes, I know he is dead.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: That is generally understood, is it not, among all of you, that the Führer is dead?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So the Führer ordered the Reich Marshal to levy a fine of a billion Reichsmark? Who ordered the confiscation of the insurance of the Jews a few days after this assault?
KÖRNER: That I do not know. I can no longer remember the details.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Do you not remember that that was Göring’s order?
KÖRNER: I cannot recall it now.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Why did Göring go to Hitler to get this stopped? Why did he not go to the head of the police, which is supposed to prevent crime?
KÖRNER: Naturally he went to the highest chief so that an authoritative order could be given for these riots to cease immediately.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did he have any idea who had started them?
KÖRNER: It had gone round that Goebbels had instigated these riots.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did he know that the Gestapo and SS also participated?
KÖRNER: I do not know. As far as I know the SS did not participate.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Did the Gestapo?
KÖRNER: No, I do not know that either.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So he went to Hitler to complain about Goebbels instigating these riots, is that the fact?
KÖRNER: Yes, that is correct.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: So that he knew the next morning that these riots against the Jews had been instigated by members of the Government?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: You were interrogated at Obersalzberg, the interrogation center, on the 4th of October of last year by Dr. Kempner of our staff, were you not?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And you stated in the beginning of your interrogation that you would not give any testimony against your former superior, Reich Marshal Göring, and that you regarded Göring as the last big man of the Renaissance; the last great example of a man from the Renaissance period; that he had given you the biggest job of your life and it would be unfaithful and disloyal to give any testimony against him; is that what you said?
KÖRNER: Yes, that is more or less what I said.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And that is still your answer?
KÖRNER: Yes.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other members of the Prosecution wish to examine this witness?
GEN. RUDENKO: Perhaps you can remember, Witness, the conference of the heads of the German authorities in the occupied territories which took place on 6 August 1942 under the chairmanship of Defendant Göring.
KÖRNER: I cannot remember straight off what conference that could have been.
GEN. RUDENKO: Perhaps you can recall that after this conference of 6 August you circulated the minutes to all the ministers. The appendix to these minutes showed how much foodstuff and other raw materials should be supplied to Germany by the occupied territories?
KÖRNER: I cannot remember offhand.
GEN. RUDENKO: I shall put before you a document signed by you yourself which gives proof of this meeting.
KÖRNER: Yes, I have read it.
GEN. RUDENKO: You remember that you circulated this document, do you not?
KÖRNER: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: The document shows that certain figures were fixed as to how much foodstuff should be sent to Germany: 1,200,000 tons from France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Norway. From Russia, 3,000,000 tons of grain were to be sent to Germany, et cetera. Do you not consider such deliveries to be a spoliation of the occupied territories?
KÖRNER: It was a matter of course that the occupied territories had to make every effort in contributing to the food supply. Quotas were imposed on the occupied territories which they could meet or, if they were not in a position to do so, they could subsequently ask for modifications.
GEN. RUDENKO: You said something about “squeezing out,” I think?
KÖRNER: No, I never talked of squeezing out. I said it was a matter of course that the occupied territories had to contribute to the food supply with all the means at their disposal.
GEN. RUDENKO: That the occupied territories had to contribute?
KÖRNER: Yes.
GEN. RUDENKO: Had these occupied territories asked Germany to come and rule over them?
KÖRNER: I did not quite understand that question.
GEN. RUDENKO: I do not suppose you did. I now want to ask you another question in connection with this. You did not see that this was plunder, but do you not recall that Göring himself . . .
KÖRNER: No, this could not have been plunder.
GEN. RUDENKO: Göring himself at the same meeting said in his address that he intended to plunder the occupied territories systematically; you do not remember his expression “systematically plunder”?
KÖRNER: No, I do not know this expression.
GEN. RUDENKO: No, you do not remember. Perhaps you can recall that at the same meeting, when addressing the leaders of the occupied territories, he said to them, “You are sent there not to work for the welfare of the people you are in charge of, but you are sent there in order to squeeze out of that country everything possible.” Do you remember these words of the Defendant Göring?
KÖRNER: No, I cannot remember these words.
GEN. RUDENKO: You cannot remember?
KÖRNER: No.
GEN. RUDENKO: And you do not recall a lengthy correspondence between Göring and Rosenberg in which Rosenberg insisted that all functions relative to the economic exploitation of the occupied territories of the Soviet Union should be taken away from the military economic offices and transferred to the ministry headed by Rosenberg?
KÖRNER: No, I do not recall this letter.
GEN. RUDENKO: You do not know. And in connection with this you do not remember that this correspondence did not lead to a final settlement of the question?
KÖRNER: I do not know anything about this correspondence.
GEN. RUDENKO: You do not know anything, do you? In 1944 do you not recall that . . .
DR. STAHMER: I should like to point out that the interpretation is very incomplete and hard to understand. We ourselves do not fully understand the questions either.
GEN. RUDENKO: I suggest it is not my fault if the witness does not get all my questions.
[Turning to the witness.] Do you not recall that in 1944, after the Red Army had driven the German troops from the Ukraine, Göring, wishing to shelve the question of the economic exploitation of the Ukraine, wrote to Rosenberg that it should be postponed until a more opportune time, and Göring mentioned a second seizure of the Ukraine and other Soviet territories?
KÖRNER: Is this supposed to have happened in 1944?
GEN. RUDENKO: In 1944.
KÖRNER: No, I cannot remember it.
GEN. RUDENKO: I shall not argue about it.
[Turning to the President.] Evidently, Mr. President, you wish to adjourn now. I have a few more questions, but I assume it will be convenient to resume after the adjournment.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
[The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]