Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremburg, 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 13

by Various

Afternoon Session

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I am turning now to the theme of the so-called conspiracy. The Prosecution is accusing you of participating from 1932, on the basis of your close connections with the Party, in a conspiracy to promote aggressive wars and commit war crimes. Where were you during the weeks of the seizure of power by the National Socialists in the early part of 1933?

DÖNITZ: Immediately after 30 January 1933, I believe it was on 1 February, I went on leave to the Dutch East Indies and Ceylon, a trip which lasted well into the summer of 1933. This leave journey had been granted me, at Grossadmiral Raeder’s recommendation, by President Hindenburg.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: After that, you became commander of a cruiser at a foreign station?

DÖNITZ: In the autumn of 1934 I went as captain of the cruiser Emden through the Atlantic, around Africa into the Indian Ocean, and back.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Before this sojourn abroad or after your return in 1935 and until you were appointed Commander-in-Chief of the Navy in the year 1943 were you politically active in any way?

DÖNITZ: I was not active politically until 1 May 1945, when I became head of the State, not before then.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The Prosecution has submitted a document, namely, an affidavit by Ambassador Messersmith. It bears the number USA-57 (Document Number 1760-PS) and I have the pertinent extracts in my document book, Volume II, Page 100. In this affidavit, Ambassador Messersmith says that from 1930 until the spring of 1934 he acted as Consul General for the United States in Berlin. Then, until July 1937, he was in Vienna and from there he went to Washington. He gives an opinion about you with the remark, “Among the people whom I saw frequently and to whom my statements refer were the following....” Then your name is mentioned. From this one must get the impression that during this period of time you were active in political circles in Berlin or Vienna. Is that correct?

DÖNITZ: No. At that time I was Lieutenant Commander and from the end of 1934 on I was Commander.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: With the permission of the Tribunal I sent an interrogatory to Ambassador Messersmith in order to determine upon what facts he was basing his opinion. This interrogatory was answered and I am submitting it as Exhibit Dönitz-45. The answers will be found on Page 102 of the document book, and I quote:

“During my residence in Berlin and during my later frequent visits there as stated in my previous affidavits, I saw Admiral Karl Dönitz and spoke to him on several occasions. However, I kept no diary and I am unable to state with accuracy when and where the meetings occurred, the capacity in which Admiral Dönitz appeared there, or the topic or topics of our conversation. My judgment on Dönitz expressed in my previous affidavit is based on personal knowledge and on the general knowledge which I obtained from the various sources described in my previous affidavits.”

Did you, Admiral, see and speak with Ambassador Messersmith anywhere and at any time?

DÖNITZ: I never saw him, and I hear his name here for the first time. Also, at the time in question, I was not in Berlin. I was in Wilhelmshaven on the North Sea coast or in the Indian Ocean. If he alleges to have spoken to me it would have had to be in Wilhelmshaven or in the Indian Ocean. Since neither is the case, I believe that he is mistaken and that he must have confused me with somebody else.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Were you a member of the NSDAP?

DÖNITZ: On 30 January 1944 I received from the Führer, as a decoration, the Golden Party Badge; and I assume that I thereby became an honorary member of the Party.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: When did you become acquainted with Adolf Hitler and how often did you see him before you were appointed Commander-in-Chief of the Navy?

DÖNITZ: I saw Adolf Hitler for the first time when, in the presence of Grossadmiral Raeder in the autumn of 1934, I informed him of my departure for foreign parts as captain of the cruiser Emden. I saw him again on the day following my return with the Emden. From the autumn of 1934 until the outbreak of war in 1939, in 5 years, I saw him four times in all, including the two occasions when I reported to him as already mentioned.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: And what were the other two occasions? Were they military or political occasions?

DÖNITZ: One was a military matter when he was watching a review of the fleet in the Baltic Sea and I stood next to him on the bridge of the flagship in order to give the necessary explanations while two U-boats showed attack maneuvers.

The other occasion was an invitation to all high-ranking army and navy officers when the new Reich Chancellery in the Voss Strasse was completed. That was in 1938 or 1939. I saw him there but I did not speak with him.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: How many times during the war, until your appointment as Commander-in-Chief, did you see the Führer?

DÖNITZ: In the years between 1939 and 1943 I saw the Führer four times, each time when short military reports about U-boat warfare were being made and always in the presence of large groups.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Until that time had you had any discussion which went beyond the purely military?

DÖNITZ: No, none at all.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: When were you appointed Commander-in-Chief of the Navy as successor to Grossadmiral Raeder?

DÖNITZ: On 30 January 1943.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Was the war which Germany was waging at that time at an offensive or defensive stage?

DÖNITZ: At a decidedly defensive stage.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: In your eyes was the position of Commander-in-Chief, which was offered to you, a political or a military position?

DÖNITZ: It was self-evidently a purely military position, namely, that of the first soldier at the head of the Navy. My appointment to this position also came about because of purely military reasons which motivated Grossadmiral Raeder to propose my name for this position. Purely military considerations were the decisive ones in respect to this appointment.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You know, Admiral, that the Prosecution draws very far-reaching conclusions from your acceptance of this appointment as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, especially with reference to the conspiracy. The Prosecution contends that through your acceptance of this position you ratified the previous happenings, all the endeavors of the Party since 1920 or 1922, and the entire German policy, domestic and foreign, at least since 1933. Were you aware of the significance of this foreign policy? Did you take this into consideration at all?

DÖNITZ: The idea never entered my head. Nor do I believe that there is a soldier who, when he receives a military command, would entertain such thoughts or be conscious of such considerations. My appointment as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy represented for me an order which I of course had to obey, just as I had to obey every other military order, unless for reasons of health I was not able to do so. Since I was in good health and believed that I could be of use to the Navy, I naturally also accepted this command with inner conviction. Anything else would have been desertion or disobedience.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Then as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy you came into very close contact with Adolf Hitler. You also know just what conclusions the Prosecution draws from this relationship. Please tell me just what this relationship was and on what it was based?

DÖNITZ: In order to be brief, I might perhaps explain the matter as follows:

This relationship was based on three ties. First of all, I accepted and agreed to the national and social ideas of National Socialism: the national ideas which found expression in the honor and dignity of the nation, its freedom, and its equality among nations and its security; and the social tenets which had perhaps as their basis: no class struggle, but human and social respect of each person regardless of his class, profession, or economic position, and on the other hand, subordination of each and every one to the interests of the common weal. Naturally I regarded Adolf Hitler’s high authority with admiration and joyfully acknowledged it, when in times of peace he succeeded so quickly and without bloodshed in realizing his national and social objectives.

My second tie was my oath. Adolf Hitler had, in a legal and lawful way, become the Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht, to whom the Wehrmacht had sworn its oath of allegiance. That this oath was sacred to me is self-evident and I believe that decency in this world will everywhere be on the side of him who keeps his oath.

The third tie was my personal relationship: Before I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, I believe Hitler had no definite conception of me and my person. He had seen me too few times and always in large circles. How my relationship to him would shape itself was therefore a completely open question when I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. My start in this connection was very unfavorable. It was made difficult, first, by the imminent and then the actual collapse of U-boat warfare and, secondly, by my refusal, just as Grossadmiral Raeder had already refused, to scrap the large ships, which in Hitler’s opinion had no fighting value in view of the oppressive superiority of the foe. I, like Grossadmiral Raeder, had opposed the scrapping of these ships, and only after a quarrel did he finally agree. But, despite that, I noticed very soon that in Navy matters he had confidence in me and in other respects as well treated me with decided respect.

Adolf Hitler always saw in me only the first soldier of the Navy. He never asked for my advice in military matters which did not concern the Navy, either in regard to the Army or the Air Force; nor did I ever express my opinion about matters concerning the Army or the Air Force, because basically I did not have sufficient knowledge of these matters. Of course, he never consulted me on political matters of a domestic or foreign nature.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You said, Admiral, that he never asked you for advice on political matters. But those matters might have come up in connection with Navy questions. Did you not participate then either?

DÖNITZ: If by “political” you mean, for instance, consultations of the commanders with the so-called “National Socialist Leadership Officers,” then, of course, I participated, because this came within the sphere of the Navy, or rather was to become a Navy concern. That was naturally the case.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Beyond those questions, did Hitler ever consider you a general adviser, as the Prosecution claims and as they concluded from the long list of meetings which you have had with Hitler since 1943 at his headquarters?

DÖNITZ: First of all, as a matter of principle, there can be no question of a general consultation with the Führer; as I have already said, the Führer asked for and received advice from me only in matters concerning the Navy and the conduct of naval warfare—matters exclusively and absolutely restricted to my sphere of activity.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: According to the table submitted, between 1943 and 1945 you were called sometimes once and sometimes twice a month to the Führer’s headquarters. Please describe to the Tribunal just what happened, as far as you were concerned, on a day like that at the Führer’s headquarters—what you had to do there.

DÖNITZ: Until 2 or 3 months before the collapse, when the Führer was in Berlin, I flew to his headquarters about every 2 or 3 weeks, but only if I had some concrete Navy matter for which I needed his decision. On those occasions I participated in the noontime discussion of the general military situation, that is, the report which the Führer’s staff made to him about what had taken place on the fighting fronts within the last 24 hours. At these military discussions the Army and Air Force situation was of primary importance, and I spoke only when my Naval expert was reporting the naval situation and he needed me to supplement his report. Then at a given moment, which was fixed by the Adjutant’s Office, I gave my military report which was the purpose of my journey. When rendering this report only those were present whom these matters concerned, that is, when it was a question of reinforcements, et cetera, Field Marshal Keitel or Generaloberst Jodl were generally present.

When I came to his headquarters every 2 or 3 weeks—later in 1944 there was sometimes an interval of 6 weeks—the Führer invited me to lunch. These invitations ceased completely after 20 July 1944, the day of the attempted assassination.

I never received from the Führer an order which in any way violated the ethics of war. Neither I nor anyone in the Navy—and this is my conviction—knew anything about the mass extermination of people, which I learned about here from the Indictment, or, as far as the concentration camps are concerned, after the capitulation in May 1945.

In Hitler I saw a powerful personality who had extraordinary intelligence and energy and a practically universal knowledge, from whom power seemed to emanate and who was possessed of a remarkable power of suggestion. On the other hand, I purposely very seldom went to his headquarters, for I had the feeling that I would best preserve my power of initiative that way and, secondly, because after several days, say 2 or 3 days at his headquarters, I had the feeling that I had to disengage myself from his power of suggestion. I am telling you this because in this connection I was doubtless more fortunate than his staff who were constantly exposed to his powerful personality with its power of suggestion.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You said just now, Admiral, that you never received an order which was in violation of military ethics. You know the Commando Order of the autumn of 1942. Did you not receive this order?

DÖNITZ: I was informed of this order after it was issued while I was still Commander of the U-boats. For the soldiers at the front this order was unequivocal. I had the feeling that it was a very grave matter; but under Point 1 of this order it was clearly and unequivocally expressed that members of the enemy forces, because of their behavior, because of the killing of prisoners, had placed themselves outside the Geneva Convention and that therefore the Führer had ordered reprisals and that those reprisal measures, in addition, had been published in the Wehrmacht report.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Therefore, the soldier who received this order had no right, no possibility, and no authority to demand a justification or an investigation; does this mean such an order was justified? As Commander of the U-boats did you have anything to do with the execution of this order?

DÖNITZ: No, not in the slightest.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: As far as you remember, did you as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy have anything to do with the carrying out of this order?

DÖNITZ: As far as I remember I was never concerned with this order as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. One should not forget, first, that this decree excludes expressly those taken prisoner in battles at sea and, second, that the Navy had no territorial authority on land, and for this latter reason found itself less often in a position of having to carry out any point of this order.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You know the document submitted by the Prosecution, which describes how in the summer of 1943 a Commando unit was shot in Norway. I mean the Prosecution’s Exhibit GB-208. The incident is described there as showing that the crew of a Norwegian motor torpedo boat were taken prisoner on a Norwegian island. This motor torpedo boat was charged with belligerent missions at sea. The document does not say who took the crew prisoner, but it does say that the members of the crew were wearing their uniforms when they were taken prisoner, that they were interrogated by a naval officer, and that on the order of Admiral Von Schrader they were turned over to the SD. The SD later shot them. Did you know about this incident or was it reported to you as Commander-in-Chief?

DÖNITZ: I learned about this incident from the trial brief of the Prosecution.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Can you explain the fact that an incident of this nature was not brought to your attention? Would this not have had to be reported to you?

DÖNITZ: If the Navy was concerned in this matter, that is, if this crew had been captured by the Navy, Admiral Von Schrader, who was the commander there, would absolutely have had to report this matter to the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. I am also convinced that he would have done so, for the regulations regarding this were unequivocal. I am also convinced that the naval expert at the Navy High Command, who was concerned with such matters, would have reported this to me as Commander-in-Chief.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: What is your opinion about this case now that you have learned about it through the document of the Prosecution?

DÖNITZ: If it is correct that it concerns the crew of a motor torpedo boat which had belligerent missions at sea, then this measure, the shooting which took place, was entirely wrong in any case, for it was in direct opposition even to this Commando Order. But I consider it completely out of the question, for I do not believe that Admiral Von Schrader, whom I know personally to be an especially chivalrous sailor, would have had a hand in anything of this sort. From the circumstances of this incident, the fact that it was not reported to the High Command, that this incident, as has now been ascertained by perusal of the German newspapers of that time, was never mentioned in the Wehrmacht communiqué, as would have been the case if it had been a matter concerning the Wehrmacht, from all these circumstances I assume that the incident was as follows:

That the police arrested these people on the island; that they were taken from this island by vessel to Bergen; that there one or two, if I remember correctly, naval officers interrogated them, since the Navy, of course, was interested in this interrogation; and that then these people were handed over to the SD, since they had already been taken prisoner by the SD. I cannot explain it otherwise.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: You wish to say, then, that in your opinion these men had never been prisoners of the Navy?

DÖNITZ: No. If they had been, a report to the High Command would have been made.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Quite apart from these questions I should like to ask you, did you not in your position as Commander-in-Chief, and during your visits to the Führer’s headquarters, have experiences which made you consider disassociating yourself from Adolf Hitler?

DÖNITZ: I have already stated that as far as my activity was concerned, even at headquarters, I was strictly limited to my own department, since it was a peculiarity of the Führer’s to listen to a person only about matters which were that person’s express concern. It was also self-evident that at the discussions of the military situation only purely military matters were discussed, that is, no problems of domestic policy, of the SD, or the SS, unless it was a question of SS divisions in military service under one of the army commanders. Therefore I had no knowledge of all these things. As I have already said, I never received an order from the Führer which in any way violated military ethics. Thus I firmly believe that in every respect I kept the Navy unsullied down to the last man until the end. In naval warfare my attention was focused on the sea; and the Navy, small as it was, tried to fulfill its duty according to its tasks. Therefore I had no reason at all to break with the Führer.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Such a reason would not necessarily refer to a crime; it could also have been, for political considerations, having nothing to do with crimes. You have heard the question broached repeatedly as to whether there should have been a Putsch. Did you enter into contact with such a movement or did you yourself consider or attempt a Putsch?

DÖNITZ: No. The word “Putsch” has been used frequently in this courtroom by a wide variety of people. It is easy to say so, but I believe that one would have had to realize the tremendous significance of such an activity.

The German nation was involved in a struggle of life and death. It was surrounded by enemies almost like a fortress. And it is clear, to keep to the simile of the fortress, that every disturbance from within would without doubt perforce have affected our military might and fighting power. Anyone, therefore, who violates his loyalty and his oath to plan and try to bring about an overthrow during such a struggle for survival must be most deeply convinced that the nation needs such an overthrow at all costs and must be aware of his responsibility.

Despite this, every nation will judge such a man to be a traitor, and history will not vindicate him unless the success of the overthrow actually contributes to the welfare and prosperity of his people. This, however, would not have been the case in Germany.

If, for instance, the Putsch of 20 July had been successful, then a dissolution, if only a gradual one, would have resulted inside Germany—a fight against the bearers of weapons, here the SS, there another group, complete chaos inside Germany—for the firm structure of the State would gradually have been destroyed and disintegration and a reduction of our fighting power at the front would have inevitably resulted.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that the defendant is making a long and political speech. It really hasn’t very much to do with the questions with which we have to deal.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Mr. President, I was of the opinion that the question of whether a Commander-in-Chief is obliged to bring about a Putsch was regarded as a main point by the Prosecution, a point having a bearing on the question of whether he declared himself in agreement or not with the system which is being characterized as criminal. If the Tribunal considers this question irrelevant I do not want to press it further.

THE PRESIDENT: I don’t think the Prosecution has put forward the view that anybody had to create a Putsch.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: It seemed to me a self-evident view of the Prosecution.

Admiral, the Prosecution has submitted two documents, dating from the winter of 1943 and May 1945, containing speeches made by you to the troops. You are accused by the Prosecution of preaching National Socialist ideas to the troops. Please define your position on this point.

DÖNITZ: When in February 1943 I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, I was responsible for the fighting power of the entire Navy. A main source of strength in this war was the unity of our people. And those who had most to gain from this unity were the Armed Forces, for any rupture inside Germany would perforce have had an effect on the troops and would have reduced that fighting spirit which was their mission. The Navy, in particular, in the first World War, had had bitter experiences in this direction in 1917-18.

Therefore in all of my speeches I tried to preserve this unity and the feeling that we were the guarantors of this unity. This was necessary and right, and particularly necessary for me as a leader of troops. I could not preach disunity or dissolution, and it had its effect. Fighting power and discipline in the Navy were of a high standard until the end. And I believe that in every nation such an achievement is considered a proper and good achievement for a leader of troops. These are my reasons for talking the way I did.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: On 30 April 1945 you became head of the State as Adolf Hitler’s successor; and the Prosecution concludes from this that prior to that time also you must have been a close confidant of Hitler’s, since only a confidant of his would have been chosen to be Hitler’s successor where matters of state were concerned. Will you tell me how you came to be his successor and whether Hitler before that time ever spoke to you about this possibility?

DÖNITZ: From 20 July 1944 on I did not see Hitler alone, but only at the large discussions of the military situation. He never spoke to me about the question of a successor, not even by way of hinting. This was entirely natural and clear since, according to law, the Reich Marshal was his successor; and the regrettable misunderstanding between the Führer and the Reich Marshal did not occur until the end of April 1945, at a time when I was no longer in Berlin.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Where were you?

DÖNITZ: I was in Holstein. Therefore, I did not have the slightest inkling, nor did the Führer, that I was to become his successor.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Just how, through what measures or orders, did that actually come about?

DÖNITZ: On 30 April 1945, in the evening, I received a radio message from headquarters to the effect that the Führer was designating me his successor and that I was authorized to take at once all measures which I considered necessary.

The next morning, that is on 1 May, I received another radio message, a more detailed directive, which said that I was to be Reich President; Minister Goebbels, Reich Chancellor; Bormann, Party Minister; and Seyss-Inquart, Foreign Minister.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Did you adhere to this directive?

DÖNITZ: This radio message first of all contradicted the earlier radio message which clearly stated: “You can at once do everything you consider to be right.” I did not and as a matter of principle never would adhere to this second radio message, for if I am to take responsibility, then no conditions must be imposed on me. Thirdly, under no circumstances would I have agreed to working with the people mentioned, with the exception of Seyss-Inquart.

In the early morning of 1 May I had already had a discussion with the Minister of Finance, Count Schwerin von Krosigk, and had asked him to take over the business of government, insofar as we could still talk about that. I had done this because in a chance discussion, which had taken place several days before, I had seen that we held much the same view, the view that the German people belonged to the Christian West, that the basis of future conditions of life is the absolute legal security of the individual and of private property.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: Admiral, you know the so-called “Political Testament” of Adolf Hitler, in which you are charged with continuing the war. Did you receive an order of this sort at that time?

DÖNITZ: No. I saw this Testament for the first time a few weeks ago here, when it was made public in the press. As I have said, I would not have accepted any order, any restriction of my activity at the time when Germany’s position was hopeless and I was given the responsibility.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: The Prosecution has submitted a document in which you exhorted the war leaders in the spring of 1945 to carry on tenaciously to the end. It is Exhibit GB-212. You are accused in this connection of being a fanatical Nazi who was ready to carry on a hopeless war at the expense of the women and children of your people. Please define your position in respect to this particularly grave accusation.

DÖNITZ: In this connection I can say the following: In the spring of 1945 I was not head of the State; I was a soldier. To continue the fight or not to continue the fight was a political decision. The head of the State wanted to continue the fight. I as a soldier had to obey. It is an impossibility that in a state one soldier should declare, “I shall continue to fight,” while another declares, “I shall not continue the fight.” I could not have given any other advice, the way I saw things; and for the following reasons:

First: In the East the collapse of our front at one point meant the extermination of the people living behind that front. We knew that because of practical experiences and because of all the reports which we had about this. It was the belief of all the people that the soldier in the East had to do his military duty in these hard months of the war, these last hard months of the war. This was especially important because otherwise German women and children would have perished.

The Navy was involved to a considerable extent in the East. It had about 100,000 men on land, and the entire surface craft were concentrated in the Baltic for the transport of troops, weapons, wounded, and above all, refugees. Therefore the very existence of the German people in this last hard period depended above all on the soldiers carrying on tenaciously to the end.

Secondly: If we had capitulated in the first few months of the spring or in the winter of 1945, then from everything we knew about the enemy’s intentions the country would, according to the Yalta Agreement, have been ruinously torn asunder and partitioned and the German land occupied in the same way as it is today.

Thirdly: Capitulation means that the army, the soldiers, stay where they are and become prisoners. That means that if we had capitulated in January or February 1945, 2 million soldiers in the East, for example, would have fallen into the hands of the Russians. That these millions could not possibly have been cared for during the cold winter is obvious; and we would have lost men on a very large scale, for even at the time of the capitulation in May 1945—that is, in the late spring—it was not possible in the West to take care of the large masses of prisoners according to the Geneva Convention. Then, as I have already said, since the Yalta Agreement would have been put into effect, we would have lost in the East a much larger number of people who had not yet fled from there.

When on 1 May I became head of the State, circumstances were different. By that time the fronts, the Eastern and Western fronts, had come so close to each other that in a few days people, troops, soldiers, armies, and the great masses of refugees could be transported, from the East to the West. When I became head of the State on 1 May, I therefore strove to make peace as quickly as possible and to capitulate, thus saving German blood and bringing German people from the East to the West; and I acted accordingly, already on 2 May, by making overtures to General Montgomery to capitulate for the territory facing his army, and for Holland and Denmark which we still held firmly; and immediately following that I opened negotiations with General Eisenhower.

The same basic principle—to save and preserve the German population—motivated me in the winter to face bitter necessity and keep on fighting. It was very painful that our cities were still being bombed to pieces and that through these bombing attacks and the continued fight more lives were lost. The number of these people is about 300,000 to 400,000, the majority of whom perished in the bombing attack of Dresden, which cannot be understood from a military point of view and which could not have been predicted. Nevertheless, this figure is relatively small compared with the millions of German people, soldiers and civilian population, we would have lost in the East if we had capitulated in the winter.

Therefore, in my opinion, it was necessary to act as I did: First while I was still a soldier, to call on my troops to keep up the fight, and afterwards, when I became head of the State in May, to capitulate at once. Thereby no German lives were lost; rather they were saved.

FLOTTENRICHTER KRANZBÜHLER: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.

[A recess was taken.]

THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the Defendants’ Counsel wish to ask questions?

DR. WALTER SIEMERS (Counsel for Defendant Raeder): Admiral Dönitz, you have already explained that Grossadmiral Raeder and the Navy in the summer of 1939 did not believe, despite certain ominous signs, that war was about to break out. Since you saw Grossadmiral Raeder in the summer of 1939, I should like you briefly to supplement this point. First of all, on what occasion did you have a detailed conversation with Grossadmiral Raeder?

DÖNITZ: Grossadmiral Raeder embarked in the middle of July 1939 for submarine maneuvers of my fleet in the Baltic Sea. Following the maneuvers...

DR. SIEMERS: May I first ask you something? What sort of maneuvers were they? How large were they and where did they take place?

DÖNITZ: All submarines which had completed their tests I had assembled in the Baltic. I cannot remember the exact figure, but I think there were about 30. In the maneuvers I then showed Grossadmiral Raeder what these submarines could accomplish.

DR. SIEMERS: Were all those submarines capable of navigating in the Atlantic?

DÖNITZ: Yes, they were, and in addition there were the smaller submarines of lower tonnage, which could operate only as far as the North Sea.

DR. SIEMERS: That means, therefore, that at that time you had no more than two dozen submarines capable of navigating in the Atlantic; is that right?

DÖNITZ: That figure is too high. At that time we had not even 15 submarines capable of navigating in the Atlantic. At the outbreak of war, as far as I remember, we went to sea with fifteen submarines capable of navigating in the Atlantic.

DR. SIEMERS: During those few days when you were with Raeder at the maneuvers did you talk to him privately?

DÖNITZ: Yes. Grossadmiral Raeder told me—and he repeated this to the entire officers’ corps during his final speech in Swinemünde—that the Führer had informed him that under no circumstances must a war in the West develop, for that would be Finis Germaniae. I asked for leave and immediately after the maneuvers I went on leave on 24 July for a 6-weeks’ rest at Bad Gastein. I am merely stating that because it shows how we regarded the situation at that time.

DR. SIEMERS: But then the war came rather quickly, did it not, and you had to break off the leave which you had planned?

DÖNITZ: I was called back by telephone in the middle of August.

DR. SIEMERS: These words, that there would be no war with England, and the words, Finis Germaniae, did Raeder speak them during a private conversation or only in this speech at Swinemünde?

DÖNITZ: As far as the sense is concerned, yes. As far as the exact words are concerned, I cannot remember now what was said in the main speech and what was said before. At any rate he certainly said it during the main speech.

DR. SIEMERS: Thank you very much.

DR. LATERNSER: Admiral, on 30 January 1943 you became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy and thereby a member of the group which is indicted here, the General Staff and the OKW?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

DR. LATERNSER: I wanted to ask you whether, after you were appointed, you had discussions with any of the members of these groups regarding plans or aims as outlined in the Indictment?

DÖNITZ: No, with none of them.

DR. LATERNSER: After you came to office, you dismissed all the senior commanders in the Navy. What were the reasons for this?

DÖNITZ: Since I was between 7 and 10 years younger than the other commanders in the Navy, for instance, Admiral Carls, Admiral Boehm, and others, it was naturally difficult for both parties. They were released for those reasons and, I believe, in spite of mutual respect and esteem.

DR. LATERNSER: How many commanders in the Navy were involved in this case?

DÖNITZ: I think three or four.

DR. LATERNSER: Was there close personal and official contact between the Navy on the one hand, and the Army and Air Force on the other?

DÖNITZ: No, not at all.

DR. LATERNSER: Did you know most of the members of the indicted group?

DÖNITZ: No. Before my time as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, I knew only those with whom I happened to find myself in the same area. For instance, when I was in France I knew Field Marshal Von Rundstedt. After I became Commander-in-Chief I knew only those whom I met by chance when I was at headquarters where they had to submit some army report at the large military situation conference.

DR. LATERNSER: Then you did not know most of the members of these groups?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. LATERNSER: Did those commanders who were known to you have a common political aim?

DÖNITZ: As far as the Army and the Air Force are concerned, I cannot say. As far as the Navy is concerned, the answer is “no.” We were soldiers, and I was interested in what the soldier could accomplish, what his personality was; and I did not concern myself in the main about a political line of thought, unless it affected his performance as a soldier.

I want to mention, as an example, the fact that my closest colleague who from 1934 until the very end in 1945 always accompanied me as my adjutant and later as Chief of Staff, was extremely critical of National Socialism—to put it mildly—without our official collaboration or my personal attitude toward him being affected thereby, as this long period of working together shows.

DR. LATERNSER: May I inquire the name of this Chief of Staff to whom you have just referred?

DÖNITZ: Admiral Godt.

DR. LATERNSER: Admiral Godt. Do you know of any remarks made by Hitler regarding the attitude of the generals of the Army? The question refers only to those who belong to the indicted group.

DÖNITZ: At the discussions of the military situation, I naturally heard a hasty remark now and then about some army commander, but I cannot say today why it was made or to whom it referred.

DR. LATERNSER: You were quite often present during the situation conferences at the Führer’s headquarters. Did you notice on such occasions that commanders-in-chief put forward in Hitler’s presence views strikingly different from his?

DÖNITZ: Yes, that certainly happened.

DR. LATERNSER: Can you remember any particular instance?

DÖNITZ: I remember that when the question of falling back in the northern sector in the East was discussed, the army commander of this sector of the front was not of the same opinion as the Führer, and that this led to an argument.

DR. LATERNSER: Was that commander successful with his objections?

DÖNITZ: I think so, partly; but I should like you to ask an army officer about that because naturally I do not know these details so clearly and authentically.

DR. LATERNSER: Did the high military leaders of the Navy have anything to do with the Einsatzgruppen of the SD?

DÖNITZ: The Navy, no. As far as the Army is concerned, I do not believe so and I assume they did not. But please do not ask me about anything but the Navy.

DR. LATERNSER: Yes. This question referred only to the Navy. And now, some questions about regional Navy commanders. Did the commanders of the regional Navy Group Commands—Marine-Gruppenkommando—have extensive territorial authority?

DÖNITZ: No. According to the famous KG-40, that is War Organization 1940, the Navy had no territorial powers ashore. Its task ashore was to defend the coast under the command of the Army and according to sectors, that is, under the command of the divisions stationed in that particular sector. Apart from that they took part in battle in coastal waters.

DR. LATERNSER: So that regional commanders in the Navy were therefore simply troop commanders?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

DR. LATERNSER: Did the commanders of these regional Navy Group Commands have any influence on the formulation of orders regarding submarine warfare?

DÖNITZ: No, none whatever.

DR. LATERNSER: Did they influence decisions regarding what ships were to be sunk?

DÖNITZ: No, not at all.

DR. LATERNSER: And did they influence orders regarding the treatment of shipwrecked personnel?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. LATERNSER: Now the holder of the office Chief of Naval Operations Staff also belongs to this group. What were the tasks of a Chief of Naval Operations Staff?

DÖNITZ: That was a high command, the office which worked out the purely military, tactical, and operational matters of the Navy.

DR. LATERNSER: Did the Chief of Naval Operations Staff have powers to issue orders?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. LATERNSER: Then his position was similar to that of Chief of General Staff of the Air Force or of the Army?

DÖNITZ: I beg your pardon, I must first get the idea clear.

I assume that by “Chief of Naval Operations Staff” you mean the Chief of Staff of Naval Operations Staff? In Grossadmiral Raeder’s time the name “Chief of Naval Operations Staff” was the same as “Commander-in-Chief of the Navy.” The position about which you are asking was called “Chief of Staff of Naval Operations Staff” while I was Commander-in-Chief of the Navy; the name “Chief of Staff of Naval Operations Staff” was changed to “Chief of Naval Operations Staff,” but it was the same person and he was under the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy.

DR. LATERNSER: Was there in the Navy a staff of Admirals corresponding to the Army General Staff?

DÖNITZ: No, that did not exist. Such an institution did not exist. The necessary consultants, “Führungsgehilfen,” as we called them, came from the front, served on the staff and then returned to the front.

DR. LATERNSER: Now I shall ask one last question. The witness Gisevius has stated in this courtroom that the highest military leaders had drifted into corruption by accepting gifts. Did you yourself receive a gift of any kind?

DÖNITZ: Apart from the salary to which I was entitled, I did not receive a penny; I received no gifts. And the same applies to all the officers of the Navy.

DR. LATERNSER: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

DR. NELTE: Witness, you were present when the witness Gisevius was being examined here. That witness, without giving concrete facts, passed judgment in the following manner: “Keitel had one of the most influential positions in the Third Reich.” And at another point he said, “I received very exact information regarding the tremendous influence, which Keitel had on everything relating to the Army and accordingly also on those who represented the Army to the German people.”

Will you, who can judge these matters, tell me whether that judgment of Defendant Keitel’s position, his function, is correct?

DÖNITZ: I consider it very much exaggerated. I think that Field Marshal Keitel’s position has been described here so unequivocally that it ought to be clear by now that what is contained in these words is not at all correct.

DR. NELTE: Am I to gather from this that you confirm as correct the description of the position and functions as given by Reich Marshal Göring and Field Marshal Keitel himself?

DÖNITZ: Yes, it is perfectly correct.

DR. NELTE: The witness Gisevius judged these matters, not on the basis of his own knowledge, but on the basis of information received from Admiral Canaris. Did you know Admiral Canaris?

DÖNITZ: I know Admiral Canaris from the time when he was still a member of the Navy.

DR. NELTE: Later on, when he was Chief of the Intelligence Service for foreign countries in the OKW, did you not have discussions with him? Did he not come to see you in his capacity as Chief of the Intelligence Service?

DÖNITZ: After I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, he visited me and he made a report about information matters which he thought he could place at the disposal of the Navy, my sphere of interest. But that was his last report to me. After that, of course, I received from him or his department written information reports which concerned the Navy.

DR. NELTE: Is it right for me to say that the position of Admiral Canaris as Chief of Intelligence, that is, espionage, counterespionage, sabotage, and intelligence, was of great importance for the entire conduct of the war?

DÖNITZ: His office or his department?

DR. NELTE: He was the chief of the whole department, was he not?

DÖNITZ: Of course, he worked for the entire Armed Forces, all three branches of the Armed Forces; and I must say in that connection, if you ask me about the importance, that I was of the opinion that the information which we received from him and which interested the Navy was very meager indeed.

DR. NELTE: Did Canaris ever complain to you that Field Marshal Keitel at the OKW in any way obstructed and hampered him in carrying out his activity and that he could not pass on his intelligence and his reports?

DÖNITZ: He never did that and, of course, he could have done so only during the first report. No, he never did that.

DR. NELTE: With reference to Canaris I should like to know whether you can tell me anything about his character and consequently about his credibility as a source of information; whether you consider him reliable?

DÖNITZ: Admiral Canaris, while he was in the Navy, was an officer in whom not much confidence was shown. He was a man quite different from us—we used to say he had seven souls in his breast.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Nelte, we don’t want to know about Admiral Canaris when he was in the Navy. I don’t think there is any use telling us that Admiral Canaris was in the Navy. The only possible relevance would be his character afterwards when he was head of the intelligence.

DR. NELTE: Mr. President, do you not think that, if someone is unreliable and not credible as a commodore, he might also be so as an Admiral in the OKW? Do you think that that could have changed during these years?

[Turning to the defendant.] But, nevertheless, I thank you for the answer to this question and I now ask you to answer the following question. Is it true that Hitler forbade all branches of the Armed Forces to make reports on any political matters and that he demanded that they confine themselves to their own sphere of work?

DÖNITZ: Yes, that is true.

DR. NELTE: Witness Gisevius has stated that Field Marshal Keitel threatened the officers under his command that he would hand them over to the Gestapo if they concerned themselves with political matters, and I ask you: Is it true that, according to the regulations applying to the Armed Forces, the Police—including the Gestapo, the SD, and the Criminal Police—had no jurisdiction at all over members of the Armed Forces, no matter what their rank was?

DÖNITZ: That is correct.

DR. NELTE: And is it also correct that the branches of the Armed Forces and also the OKW were at great pains to preserve this prerogative as far as the Police were concerned?

DÖNITZ: Yes, that is true.

DR. NELTE: So that any alleged threat, as mentioned by Gisevius, namely, the handing over of these people to the Gestapo, could not have been carried out?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. NELTE: And it is correct for me to say that all officers of the OKW to whom such a statement might have been made naturally knew that, too?

DÖNITZ: Naturally. A soldier was subject to military jurisdiction, and nobody could interfere with the Armed Forces.

DR. NELTE: Moreover, did Field Marshal Keitel, as Chief of the OKW, have any right to deal with officers serving in the OKW without the knowledge and consent of the Commander-in-Chief of the branch of the Armed Forces to which the officer belonged? Could he promote such an officer, dismiss him, or anything like that?

DÖNITZ: An officer in a branch of the Armed Forces—for instance the Navy—was detailed to the OKW for a definite office and thus was sent by the Navy to the OKW. If this officer was to be given a different office in the OKW, then the branch of the Armed Forces to which he belonged would of course have to be consulted.

DR. NELTE: Is it not correct to say that these officers were still on the roster of their own branch of the Armed Forces, since the OKW was not a branch of the Armed Forces and was not a formation; in other words, if there was a promotion, for instance, it would be ordered by the Navy? If Canaris was to have been promoted, you, as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, would have had to order this promotion, assuming, of course, that you were in agreement with this proposal? It was merely a question of the actual command and of personnel?

DÖNITZ: These officers were detailed to the OKW. As far as I can recollect, they were still on the Navy roster under the heading, “Detailed from the Navy to the OKW.”

DR. NELTE: But they did not leave the Navy as a branch of the Armed Forces, did they?

DÖNITZ: Promotion of such officers, I think, was decided by the Personnel Office of the Navy in agreement with the OKW, and I think also that no one could be detailed—I consider this self-evident—without agreement of the branch of the Armed Forces concerned.

DR. NELTE: Witness Gisevius has stated that certain men, among them Field Marshal Keitel for military matters, had formed a close ring of silence around Hitler so that nobody they did not want to let through could approach him. I ask you, was it possible for Field Marshal Keitel to keep you, as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, away from Hitler, if you wanted to make a report to him?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. NELTE: In the same way, was it possible for Field Marshal Keitel to keep the Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force away, if the latter wanted to report to the Führer?

DÖNITZ: No.

DR. NELTE: And how was it with the Commander-in-Chief of the Army?

DÖNITZ: I know nothing about that. When I was Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, there was no such position.

DR. NELTE: Then how was it with the Chief of General Staff of the Army? Could he at any time report to the Führer without going by way of Field Marshal Keitel?

DÖNITZ: It was not possible for Field Marshal Keitel to keep anyone away, and he would never have done so anyway.

DR. NELTE: In reply to a question of the Prosecution, witness Gisevius stated in this courtroom that his group forwarded reports to Field Marshal Keitel, by way of Admiral Canaris, which dealt with the crimes against humanity which have been adduced here by the Prosecution. These reports had been camouflaged as “foreign reports.”

I ask you, was a camouflaged “foreign report” of this sort ever submitted to you or sent to you by Canaris?

DÖNITZ: No, never.

DR. NELTE: From your knowledge of Keitel’s personality, do you consider it possible that he would have withheld from the Führer an important report which was submitted to him?

DÖNITZ: I consider that absolutely out of the question.

THE PRESIDENT: I don’t think that is a proper question for you to put.

DR. NELTE: With this question I wanted to end my inquiries on this point; but I still have one other question, which can be quickly dealt with.

Mr. President, in your communication of 26 March 1946, you gave me permission to submit an affidavit from Admiral Dönitz concerning the function and the position of the Chief of the OKW. I received this affidavit and handed it over to the Prosecution on 13 April for examination, and I understand that there are no objections to this affidavit. I have, however, not yet got back the original, which was handed over on 13 April, and I do not know whether it has in the meantime been submitted to the Tribunal by the Prosecution or not.

THE PRESIDENT: I don’t know anything about the affidavit that you are dealing with.

DR. NELTE: I shall therefore be forced to put questions to Admiral Dönitz, which in large part are the same questions which I have already put to Field Marshal Keitel himself.

THE PRESIDENT: Do the Prosecution object to the affidavit at all?

DR. NELTE: No, they did not raise any objections. Therefore, if it had been returned I would have submitted it as an exhibit, without reading it.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. NELTE: Thank you.

DR. DIX: Witness, you have stated that the SD and the Gestapo, in fact, the whole Police had no jurisdiction over members of the Armed Forces—for instance, they could not arrest members of the Armed Forces. Did I understand you correctly?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

DR. DIX: Do you know, Witness, that all the officers, or in any case most of them, who were suspected of being involved in the affair of 20 July, were arrested by members of the SD and sent for questioning by the SD and the SD office, where they were arrested, to prisons under the SD and there held under SD guard and not under any military guard?

DÖNITZ: No, I don’t know that, because after 20 July, as far as I can remember, an order was issued specifically stating that the SD were to give to branches of the Armed Forces the names of those soldiers who had participated in the Putsch and that these soldiers were then to be dismissed from the branches of the Armed Forces, particularly to keep the principle of noninterference in the branches of the Armed Forces from being violated, and that then the SD would have the right to take action.

DR. DIX: That order did come out, but perhaps we can come to an explanation of this order if you answer further questions which I want to put to you.

Do you know, Witness, that the examination, the interrogation of those officers arrested in connection with 20 July, was carried out exclusively by officials of the SD or the Gestapo and not by officers, that is, members of military courts?

DÖNITZ: I can only judge as to the two cases which I had in the Navy. I received information that these two officers had participated. I had questions put to them, and they confirmed it. Thereupon these officers were dismissed from the Navy. After that the interrogation was, of course, not carried out by the Navy; but I know that my Navy court judges still concerned themselves about the officers and the interrogation.

DR. DIX: Who dismissed these men?

DÖNITZ: The Navy.

DR. DIX: That is you.

DÖNITZ: Yes.

DR. DIX: Do you know, Witness, that following upon the investigation regarding 20 July a committee of generals was formed under the chairmanship of Field Marshal Von Rundstedt?

DÖNITZ: Yes, I heard about that.

DR. DIX: And that this committee, on the basis of the records of the SD, decided whether the officer in question was to be dismissed from the Army or would have to leave the Army, so that he could be turned over to the civil court, namely, the People’s Court?

DÖNITZ: That is not known to me.

DR. DIX: May I put it to you that I am of the opinion that the order which you have described correctly...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Dix, you are bound by his answer. He said he didn’t know anything about it. You can’t then put to him what you say happened. If he says he doesn’t know anything about it, you must accept his answer.

DR. DIX: I just wanted to put to him that the order to which I referred earlier, which actually exists and which deals with the decision of whether a person is to be dismissed from the Army and surrendered to the civil authorities, has to do with this committee presided over by Field Marshal Von Rundstedt, which had to decide whether the officer in question was to be dismissed and thereby turned over, not to a military court, but to the People’s Court.

THE PRESIDENT: I understood the witness to say he didn’t know anything about it. I think you are bound by that answer.

DR. DIX: May I add something?

THE PRESIDENT: Who are you offering these questions for? You are counsel for the Defendant Schacht.

DR. DIX: My colleague’s questions concerning Keitel were put to challenge the credibility of the witness Gisevius. Schacht’s defense is naturally interested in the credibility of the witness Gisevius. The Defense has put three questions in connection with Gisevius’ credibility, therefore, concerning the case for Schacht. May I add something?

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.

DR. DIX: I ask the questions to which your Lordship is objecting only because I think it possible that the answer of the witness may have been based on a mistake, namely, that he confused the general regulation stating that the soldier concerned must be dismissed before the SD could lay hands on him with the order stating that Von Rundstedt’s committee would have to decide whether the officer in question was to be dismissed from the Army so that he could be handed over to the People’s Court, not to the SD. The SD merely carried out the investigation, the preliminary interrogation.

THE PRESIDENT: What is it you want to ask him now?

DR. DIX: Admiral, I think you have understood my question, or do you want me to repeat it?

DÖNITZ: I cannot tell you any more than I have already done.

DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, as Commander of Submarines, you did once have some official contact with Sauckel?

DÖNITZ: No, not official but private.

DR. SERVATIUS: What was the occasion?

DÖNITZ: A submarine, which was to go into the Atlantic for 8 weeks, had reported to me that it had been discovered after leaving port that Gauleiter Sauckel had crept aboard. I immediately sent a radio message ordering the submarine to turn back and put him on the nearest outpost steamer.

DR. SERVATIUS: What was Sauckel’s motive?

DÖNITZ: No doubt a belligerent one. He wanted to go to sea again.

DR. SERVATIUS: But he was a Gauleiter. Did he not have particular reasons in order to show that he too was ready to fight in the war and did not want to remain behind?

DÖNITZ: It surprised me that he, as a Gauleiter, should want to go to sea; but, at any rate, I considered that here was a man who had his heart in the right place.

DR. SERVATIUS: You believe that his motives were idealistic?

DÖNITZ: Certainly. Nothing much can be got out of a submarine trip.

DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.

DR. STEINBAUER: Admiral, do you remember that in your capacity as head of the State on 1 May 1945 you ordered the Reich Commissioner for the Occupied Netherlands to come to Flensburg to report to you?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

DR. STEINBAUER: Do you also remember that on this occasion my client asked you to cancel the order originally sent to the Commander-in-Chief in the Netherlands to the effect that all locks and dykes should be blown up in the event of an attack, and to give the order that the mined blasting points be rendered harmless?

DÖNITZ: Yes, he did do that. It was in accordance with my own principles, for when I became head of the State I gave the order that all destruction in occupied territories, including for instance Czechoslovakia, should cease forthwith.

DR. STEINBAUER: At the end of his report, did he ask you for permission to return to his station in the Netherlands instead of remaining in Germany?

DÖNITZ: Yes, he did so repeatedly. He tried to get back—the weather situation was difficult—to the Netherlands by a motor torpedo boat.

DR. STEINBAUER: Thank you very much.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Defendant, I want you first of all to answer some questions on your record after becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Navy on 30 January 1943. As Commander-in-Chief of the Navy you had the equivalent rank of a Minister of the Reich; is that not so?

DÖNITZ: Yes, that is correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You had also the right to participate in meetings of the Reich Cabinet; had any such meetings taken place?

DÖNITZ: I was authorized to participate if such a meeting, or my participation in such a meeting, was ordered by the Führer. That is the wording of the order. But I must say that no meeting of the Reich Cabinet took place at the time I was Commander-in-Chief from 1943 on.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: From the time that you became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, the government of the Reich was in a sense carried on from Hitler’s headquarters; isn’t that so?

DÖNITZ: That is correct.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: It was a military dictatorship in which the dictator saw those people he wanted at his military headquarters; that is right, is it not?

DÖNITZ: One cannot say “military dictatorship.” It was not a dictatorship at all. There was a military sector and a civilian sector, and both components were united in the hands of the Führer.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I see. I will take the last part of your answer, and we will not argue about the first.

Now, you saw him on 119 days in just over 2 years; do you agree to that?

DÖNITZ: Yes. But in that connection it must be stated that from 30 January 1943, when I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, until the end of January 1945—that is, approximately 2 years—the number was, I think, 57 times. The larger figure arises from the fact that in the last months of the war I took part in the noontime conferences on the situation which took place daily in the Voss Strasse in Berlin.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I want to ask you about certain of these. At a number of these meetings the Defendant Speer was present, was he not?

DÖNITZ: I cannot remember that he was present in person at the discussions of the military situation. Actually Minister Speer as a civilian had nothing to do with a discussion of the military situation. But it is possible that he was there on some occasions, for instance, when tank production and other matters were discussed which were directly connected with the Führer’s military considerations.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was exactly what I was going to put to you, that the occasions when the Defendant Speer were present were when you were going into matters of supply; that is, supply for the various services, including supply for the Navy.

DÖNITZ: Supply questions of the Navy were never discussed at the large conferences on the military situation. I discussed these matters with the Führer alone, as I have already said, usually in the presence of Jodl and Keitel. I submitted these matters to the Führer after I had come to an understanding with Minister Speer, to whom I had delegated all matters of naval armament when I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. That, in general, was the situation.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: But, like the head of every service, you would have had to learn about priorities and materials and labor. You would want to know how labor was going to be allocated during the next period, would you not?

DÖNITZ: I tried to bring it about that by a decision of the Führer Minister Speer would be given the order to build the largest possible number of new U-boats which I had to have at the time. But there were limitations as to the quantities to be allotted to each branch of the Armed Forces by Speer’s Ministry.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And, therefore, you would be very interested in discovering the figure of manpower for labor for naval supplies and for the other supplies, to see that you were getting your fair share, would you not?

DÖNITZ: I am very sorry, but I cannot give you an answer to that. I never knew, and I do not know today, how many workers Speer was using for the armament supply for the Navy. I do not even know whether Speer can give you the answer, because construction of submarines, for instance, was taking place all over the German Reich in many industrial plants. Parts were then assembled in the shipyards. Therefore I have no idea what the labor capacity allotted to the Navy was.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you remember describing Speer as the man who holds the production of Europe in his hand? That was on 17 December 1943. I shall put the document to you in a little time. But do you remember describing him as that?

DÖNITZ: Yes; I know that quite well.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And don’t you know quite well also that Speer was getting his labor from foreign labor brought into the Reich?

DÖNITZ: I knew, of course, that there were foreign workers in Germany. It is just as self-evident that as Commander-in-Chief of the Navy I was not concerned as to how these workers were recruited. That was none of my business.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did not Gauleiter Sauckel tell you on the occasion of this trip that he had got 5 million foreign workers into the Reich, of whom only 200,000 had come voluntarily?

DÖNITZ: I did not have a single conversation with Gauleiter Sauckel. I have never had a discussion with anyone about questions referring to workers.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, Defendant, you were head of a service department in the fifth and sixth years of the war. Wasn’t Germany, like every other country, searching around to scrape the bottom of the barrel for labor for all its requirements? Weren’t you in urgent need of labor, like every other country in the war?

DÖNITZ: I, too, think that we needed workers.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Are you telling the Tribunal that you did not know after these conferences with Hitler and with Speer that you were getting this labor by forcing foreign labor to come into the Reich and be used?

DÖNITZ: During my conferences with Hitler and Speer, the system of obtaining these workers was never mentioned at all. The methods did not interest me at all. During these conferences the labor question was not discussed at all. I was interested merely in how many submarines I received, that is, how large my allotment was in terms of ships built.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You tell the Tribunal you discussed that with Speer and he never told you where he was getting his labor? Is that your answer on this point?

DÖNITZ: Yes, that is my answer, and it is true.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Do you remember, just before we passed from the industrial side of it, that at certain meetings the representatives for coal and transport, and Gauleiter Kaufmann, the Reich Commissioner for Shipping, were present at meetings which you had with the Führer?

DÖNITZ: No.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You may take it from me that they are listed as being present at these meetings. Were you dealing with general problems of shipping and transport?

DÖNITZ: Never. As far as sea transport is concerned—that is true. I was thinking of things on land. I thought you meant on land. I have already stated that at the end of the war I was keenly interested in the tonnage of merchant vessels because this tonnage, which I needed in order to carry out military transports from Norway, from and to the East, and for refugee transports, was not under my jurisdiction but under that of Gauleiter Kaufmann, the Reich Commissioner for shipping. So at meetings and discussions which dealt with the sea transport situation I was, of course, present.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let us take another subject of these 119 days. On 39 of these days the Defendant Keitel was also present at the headquarters and at about the same number, the Defendant Jodl.

DÖNITZ: I am sorry; I did not understand the date.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I will put it again. At 39 of these meetings between January 1943 and April 1945 the Defendant Keitel was present and at about the same number, the Defendant Jodl. Now, is it right that you discussed or listened to the discussion, in their presence, of the general strategical position?

DÖNITZ: I might say that the word “meeting” does not quite describe the matter. It was rather, as I...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, you choose the word; you give us the word.

DÖNITZ: It was, as I described it, a large-scale discussion of the military situation; and at this discussion I heard also, of course, reports about the army situation. That I explained before.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I just want to get it quite clear that over these 2 years you had every opportunity of understanding and appreciating the military strategical position; that is so, isn’t it?

DÖNITZ: Yes.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well now, on 20 of these occasions the Defendant Göring was present. The Defendant Göring has put himself forward in two capacities; as Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe and as a politician. What was he doing on these 20 occasions?

DÖNITZ: Reich Marshal Göring was there as Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force when the military situation was discussed.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: And so from the Defendant Göring you would have a full knowledge and appreciation of the air situation and the position of the Luftwaffe during this period?

DÖNITZ: Insofar as my occasional presence at these discussions, in which only segments were dealt with—an over-all picture was never given at such a discussion—insofar as I could form an opinion from these segments, which naturally was always fragmentary. That was the reason why I have never made statements about military matters outside the Navy.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Let me ask you just one further question on this point. Following up what Dr. Laternser asked, on 29 June 1944, apart from Keitel and Jodl and Göring, these defendants, Marshal Von Rundstedt and Marshal Rommel were also present; and may I remind you that that was 3 weeks after the Allies had invaded in the West. You were being given the opportunity, were you not, of getting the appreciation of the strategical position after the Allied invasion of Normandy, isn’t that so?

DÖNITZ: Yes, from that I gained an impression of the situation in Normandy after the enemy had set foot there. I was in a position to report to the Führer which of my new small striking devices I could put to use in that sector.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, let us change to another aspect of the government in general.

On a number of occasions the Reichsführer-SS Himmler was present at these conferences—shall I call them—isn’t that so?

DÖNITZ: Yes. If the Reichsführer-SS Himmler was there, and as far as I remember that happened once or twice, it was because of his Waffen-SS.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: You may take it from me that he is shown as being there on at least seven occasions, and that Fegelein, who was his representative at the Führer’s headquarters, is shown as being present on five occasions. What did Himmler discuss about the Waffen-SS—the doings of the Totenkopf division?

DÖNITZ: That cannot be right. Fegelein was always present during the discussions of the military situation; he never missed, because he was a permanent representative. If the Reichsführer was present during these discussions, he reported only on the Waffen-SS, those divisions of the Waffen-SS which were being used somewhere under the Army. I do not know the name of these individual divisions. I do not think they included the Totenkopf; I never heard they did; there was a Viking or...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: That was because they were being largely occupied in concentration camps, and you say that Himmler never mentioned that?

DÖNITZ: That Totenkopf divisions were used in concentration camps I learned here in Nuremberg. It wasn’t mentioned there. I have already said that during the military discussions only military matters were discussed.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now, the Defendant Kaltenbrunner is only reported as being present once, on 26 February 1945, when there was quite a considerable gathering of SS notabilities. What were you discussing with him then?

DÖNITZ: It is not correct that Kaltenbrunner was there only once. As far as I remember, he was there two, three, or four times; at any rate, during the last months of the war I saw him two, three, or four times. Kaltenbrunner never said a word there; as far as I remember, he just listened and stood about.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What I want you to tell the Tribunal is: What was the subject of conversation when you had, not only the Defendant Kaltenbrunner there, but you had SS Obergruppenführer Steiner, your own captain in attendance, and Lieutenant General Winter? What were these gentlemen there for, and what were you hearing from them?

DÖNITZ: Who is the captain and who is Lieutenant General Günther?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Captain Von Assmann; I took it he was the captain in attendance on you, though I may have been wrong—Kapitän zur See Von Assmann. Then there was Lieutenant General Winter, SS Obergruppenführer Steiner, and SS Obergruppenführer Kaltenbrunner. What were you discussing on the 26th of February 1945?

DÖNITZ: I must mention one fact in this connection: Captain Von Assmann was present at every discussion of the general situation.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Just a moment. You can tell us something afterwards, but first of all listen to my question. What were you discussing with these people from the SS on 26 February 1945?

DÖNITZ: I cannot remember that now. I do remember, however, that Steiner received an order in regard to the army groups in Pomerania which were to make the push from the north to the south in order to relieve Berlin. I think that when Steiner was present perhaps this question, which did not concern me, was discussed.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Now I just want you to think, before I leave this point. You have agreed with me that at a number of meetings, a large number, there were present Keitel and Jodl, at not quite so many Göring, who would give you the army and air situation in Germany; there was present the Defendant Speer, who would give you the production position; there was present Himmler, or his representative Fegelein, who would give you the security position; and you yourself were present, who would give the naval position. At all meetings there was present the Führer who would make the decisions.

I put to you, Defendant, that you were taking as full a part in the government of Germany during these years as anyone, apart from Adolf Hitler himself.

DÖNITZ: In my opinion that description is not correct. At these discussions of the general situation neither Speer nor anybody else supplied a complete survey of the work being done. On the contrary, only acute questions of the day were discussed. As I have said, the happenings of the last 24 hours were discussed, and what should be done. That there was a staff there which in its reports gave an over-all picture—that was quite out of the question; it was not at all like that. The only one who had a complete picture of the situation was the Führer. At these discussions of the military situation the developments of the last 24 hours and the measures to be taken were discussed. These are the facts.

Therefore, one cannot say that any one of the participants had an over-all picture. Rather every one had a clear view of his own department for which he was responsible. An over-all picture in the mind of any of the participants is out of the question. Only the Führer had that.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Well, I won’t argue with you; but I suppose, Defendant, that you say—as we have heard from so many other defendants—that you knew nothing about the slave-labor program, you knew nothing about the extermination of the Jews, and you knew nothing about any of the bad conditions in concentration camps. I suppose you are going to tell us you knew nothing about them at all, are you?

DÖNITZ: That is self-evident, since we have heard here how all these things were kept secret; and if one bears in mind the fact that everyone in this war was pursuing his own tasks with the maximum of energy, then it is no wonder at all. To give an example, I learned of the conditions in concentration camps...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I just want your answer for the moment, and you have given it to me. I want you to come to a point which was well within your own knowledge, and that is the order for the shooting of Commandos, which was issued by the Führer on 18 October 1942. You have told us that you got it when you were Flag Officer of U-boats. Now, do you remember the document by which the Naval Operations Staff distributed it? Do you remember that it said this:

“This order must not be distributed in writing by flotilla leaders, section commanders, or officers of this rank.

“After verbal notification to subordinate sections the above officers must hand this order over to the next higher section, which is responsible for its withdrawal and destruction.”

Do you remember that?

DÖNITZ: Yes, I read that again when I saw the order here. But on the other side it says also that this measure had already been announced in the Wehrmacht order.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What I want to know from you is: Why was there this tremendous secrecy about this order in the naval distribution?

DÖNITZ: I did not understand that question. I do not know whether tremendous secrecy was being observed at all. I am of the opinion that in 1942 all naval officers had been informed about it.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: This is on 28 October, 10 days after the order was issued. I am not going to quarrel with you about adjectives, Defendant. Let me put it this way: Why did the naval distribution require that degree of secrecy?

DÖNITZ: I do not know. I did not make up the distribution chart. As an officer at the front I received this order at that time. I do not know.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Within 3 months you were Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. Did you never make any inquiries then?

DÖNITZ: I beg your pardon.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you never make any inquiries?

DÖNITZ: No, I did not. I have told you that I saw this order as Commander of U-boats and that as far as my field of activities was concerned this order did not concern me in the least and, secondly, that men captured during naval engagements were expressly excepted; so, as far as that goes, this order at that time had no actual, no real significance. In view of the enormous number of things that I had to deal with when I became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, it was quite natural that it did not occur to me to take up the question of this new order. I did not think of the order at all.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I am going to put to you when the time comes a memorandum from the Naval Staff showing that it was put before you. Don’t you remember that?

DÖNITZ: If you are referring to the memorandum which is in my trial brief, then I can only say that this memorandum was not submitted to me, as can be clearly seen from this note.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: What I want to ask you before the Tribunal adjourns is: Did you approve of this order or did you not?

DÖNITZ: I have already told you, as I...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No, you haven’t. I want you to tell the Tribunal now, and you can answer it either “I approved” or “I did not approve.” Did you or did you not approve this order to your commanders?

DÖNITZ: Today I do not approve of that order since I have learned here that the basis was not so sound...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: Did you agree with it when you were Commander-in-Chief of the German Navy at the beginning of 1943? Did you approve of it then?

DÖNITZ: As Commander-in-Chief of the Navy I was not concerned with this order. While I was Commander of U-boats, as I have already explained to you, I considered it simply a reprisal order. It was not up to me to start an investigation or to take it up with the office which had issued the order to find out whether the basis was correct or not. It was not up to me to start an investigation on the basis of international law. And it was quite clear in Point 1 of the order that here the enemy, the opponent, had placed himself outside the bounds of the Geneva Convention, because they were murdering prisoners, and that therefore we had to do certain things as reprisals. Whether these reprisal measures were necessary or whether they were fully justified by the conditions in Point 1, that is something I did not and could not know.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: This is the last question. I want you to try and answer it with a straight answer if you can. At the beginning of 1943 did you or did you not approve of this order?

DÖNITZ: I cannot give you an answer, because at the beginning of 1943 I did not think of the order and was not concerned with it. Therefore I cannot say how that order affected me at that particular time. I can tell you only how it affected me when I read it as Commander of U-boats; and I can also tell you that today I reject this order, now that I have learned that the basis on which it was issued was not so sound. And thirdly, I can tell you that I personally rejected any kind of reprisals in naval warfare—every kind, in every case, and whatever the proposal.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: I will ask some more questions about it tomorrow, as the time has come to break off.

[The Tribunal adjourned until 10 May 1946 at 1000 hours.]

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ONE HUNDRED
AND TWENTY-SIXTH DAY
Friday, 10 May 1946