Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremburg, 14 November 1945-1 October 1946, Volume 13

by Various

Morning Session

[The Defendant Funk resumed the stand.]

MR. DODD: Witness, you had a conference with Dr. Sauter last night after we recessed Court, did you not, for about an hour?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. DODD: Now we were talking yesterday, when the Tribunal rose, about the gold deposits in the Reichsbank, and I had asked you when you started to do business with the SS, and as I recall, you said you did not do any business with the SS. And then we went along a little further and you did say that the SS did deposit some materials, some property belonging to people in concentration camps. Do I properly understand your testimony to have been, in substance, as I have stated it?

FUNK: No. I said that Herr Puhl—I do not remember in what year—told me one day that a gold deposit had arrived from the SS and he also told me—and he said it somewhat ironically—it would be better that we should not try to ascertain what this deposit was. As I said yesterday, it was impossible in any case to ascertain what was deposited. When something was deposited, the Reichsbank had no right to look into it to see of what it consisted. Only later, when Herr Puhl made another report to me, did I realize that when he used the word “deposit” it was a wrong term; it was not a deposit but it was a delivery of gold. There is of course a great difference. I personally assumed that it concerned a gold deposit, that this gold consisted of gold coins or other foreign currency or small bars of gold or something similar, which had been brought in from the inmates of the concentration camps—everybody in Germany had to hand these things over—and that it was being handed to the Reichsbank, which would use it. Since you mentioned this matter, I remember another fact of which I was not conscious until now. I was asked about it during my interrogation, and during this interrogation I could not say “yes” to it because at that time I did not remember it. I was asked during my interrogation whether I had the agreement of the Reichsführer that the gold which was delivered to the Reichsbank should be utilized by the Reichsbank. I said I did not remember. However, if Herr Puhl makes such a statement under oath, I will not and cannot dispute it. It is evident that if gold were delivered which should come to the Reichsbank, then the Reichsbank had the right to utilize such gold. I certainly never spoke more than twice or at most three times to Herr Puhl about this matter. What these deposits or these deliveries consisted of and what was done with these deliveries, how they were utilized, I do not know. Herr Puhl never informed me about that either.

MR. DODD: Well now, let us see. You were not ordinarily in the habit, in the Reichsbank, of accepting jewels, monocles, spectacles, watches, cigarette cases, pearls, diamonds, gold dentures, were you? You ordinarily accepted that sort of material for deposit in your bank?

FUNK: No; there could be no question, in my opinion, that the bank had no right to do that, because these things were supposed to be delivered to an entirely different place. If I am correctly informed about the legal position, these things were supposed to be delivered to the Reich Office for Precious Metals and not to the Reichsbank. Diamonds, jewels, and precious stones were not the concern of the Reichsbank because it was not a place of sale for these things. And in my opinion, if the Reichsbank did that, then it was unlawful.

MR. DODD: That is exactly right.

FUNK: If that happened, then the Reichsbank committed an illegal act. The Reichsbank was not authorized to do that.

MR. DODD: And is it your statement that if it was done you did not know anything about it?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: You did not know?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: You were frequently in the vaults of the Reichsbank, were you not? As a matter of fact you liked to take visitors through there. I say, you were frequently in the vaults of the bank yourself?

FUNK: Yes, I was, where the gold bars were kept.

MR. DODD: I will come to the gold bars in a minute. I just want to establish that you were in the vaults frequently, and your answer, as I understand it, is “yes” that you were?

FUNK: It was the usual thing if someone came to visit us, particularly foreign visitors, to show them the rooms where the gold was kept and we always showed them the gold bars and there was always the usual joke as to whether one could lift a gold bar or not. But I never saw anything else there except gold bars.

MR. DODD: How heavy were these gold bars that you had in the vaults?

FUNK: They were the usual gold bars which were used in commerce between banks. I think they varied in weight. I think the gold bars weighed about 20 kilograms. Of course, you can figure it out. If one...

MR. DODD: That is all right. That is satisfactory. When you were in the vaults you never saw any of these materials that I mentioned a few minutes ago—jewels, cigarette cases, watches, and all that business?

FUNK: Never. I was in the vaults at the most four or five times and then only to show this very interesting spectacle to visitors.

MR. DODD: Only four or five times from 1941 to 1945?

FUNK: I assume so. It was not more often. I only went down there with visitors, particularly foreign visitors.

MR. DODD: Are you telling the Tribunal that as head of the Reichsbank you never made an inspection, so to speak, of the vaults, never took a look at the collateral? Did you not ever make an inspection before you made your certifications as to what was on hand? Certainly every responsible banker does that regularly, does he not? What is your answer?

FUNK: No, never. The business of the Reichsbank was not conducted by the President. It was conducted by the Directorate. I never bothered about individual transactions, not even gold transactions, or even about slight variations in the individual gold reserves, et cetera. If large deliveries of gold were expected, the Directorate reported to me. The Directorate conducted the business, and I believe the detailed transactions were probably known only to the director responsible for that particular department.

MR. DODD: Now, did you ever do any business with pawnshops?

FUNK: With what?

MR. DODD: Pawnshops. Do you not know what a pawnshop is? There must be a German word for that.

FUNK: Pfandleihe.

MR. DODD: Whatever it is, you know what they are, do you not?

FUNK: Where you pawn something.

MR. DODD: Yes.

FUNK: No, I never did any...

MR. DODD: All right, we will get to that a little later too. Right now, since you do not seem to recall that you ever had any or saw any such materials as I have described in your vaults, I ask that we have an opportunity to show you a film which was taken of some materials in your vaults when the Allied Forces arrived there.

[Turning to the President.] I would ask, Mr. President, that the defendant be permitted to come down, where he can watch the film, so that his memory will be properly refreshed.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you may have him brought down.

[Moving pictures were then shown.]

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, at some stage, I take it, you will offer evidence as to where that film was made.

MR. DODD: Yes, I will. There will be an affidavit as to the circumstances under which the film was made, who was present, and why; but, for the information of the Tribunal, it was taken in Frankfurt when the Allied Forces captured that city and went into the Reichsbank vaults.

[Turning to the defendant.] Now, Witness, having seen these pictures of materials that were found in your Reichsbank vaults a year ago, or a little earlier than a year ago, you now recall that you did have such material on hand over a period of 4 or 5 years, 3 or 4 years, 3 years—I think actually a little longer than 3 years?

FUNK: I have never seen anything of this sort. I also have the impression that a large part of these things which were shown in the film came from deposits, because people, thousands of them, had locked deposits which they delivered to the Reichsbank, in which they put their jewels and other valuables, as we have just seen. Probably some were hidden valuables, which they should have given up, such as foreign money, foreign exchange, gold coins, et cetera. As far as I know we had thousands of closed deposits into which the Reichsbank could not look. I never saw a single item such as these shown in the film, and I cannot imagine where these things came from, to whom they belonged, and to what use they were put.

MR. DODD: Well, that is an interesting answer. I asked you yesterday, and I ask you again now, did you ever hear of anybody depositing his gold dentures in a bank for safekeeping? [There was no response.]

You saw that film, and you saw the gold bridgework, or mouth-plates, did you not, and the other dental work? Certainly nobody ever deposited that with a bank. Is that not a fact?

FUNK: As far as the teeth are concerned, this is a special case. Where these teeth came from I do not know. It was not reported to me, nor do I know what was done with those teeth. I am convinced that items of this sort, when they were delivered to the Reichsbank, had to be turned over to the Office for Precious Metals, for the Reichsbank was not a place where gold was worked. Neither do I know whether the Reichsbank even had the technical facilities to work this metal. I do not know about that.

MR. DODD: And not only did people not deposit gold teeth, but they never deposited eyeglass rims, did they, such as you saw in the picture?

FUNK: That is right. These things are, of course, no regular deposits. That goes without saying.

MR. DODD: And you saw there were some objects that obviously were in the process of being melted down. Practically the last scene in that film showed something that looked as if it had been in the process of being melted, did it not? You saw it?

Well, will you answer me, please, “yes” or “no”? Did you see it?

FUNK: I cannot say that exactly. I do not know whether they were melting it down. I have no knowledge of these technical matters. To be sure, now I see quite clearly what was not known to me until now, that the Reichsbank did the technical work of melting down gold articles.

MR. DODD: Well, now, let us see what your assistant, Mr. Puhl, says about that, the man who you told us yesterday was a credible gentleman, and whom you asked the Tribunal to call as a witness on your behalf. I am holding in my hand an affidavit executed by him on the 3rd day of May 1946 at Baden-Baden, Germany.

“Emil Puhl, being duly sworn, deposes and says:

“1. My name is Emil Puhl. I was born on 28 August 1889 in Berlin, Germany. I was appointed a member of the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank in 1935 and Vice President of the Reichsbank in 1939, and served in these positions continuously until the surrender of Germany.

“2. In the summer of 1942 Walter Funk, President of the Reichsbank and Reich Minister of Economics, had a conversation with me and later with Mr. Friedrich Wilhelm, who was a member of the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank. Funk told me that he had arranged with Reichsführer Himmler to have the Reichsbank receive in safe custody gold and jewels for the SS. Funk directed that I should work out the arrangements with Pohl, who, as head of the economic section of the SS, administered the economic side of the concentration camps.

“3. I asked Funk what the source was of the gold, jewels, bank notes, and other articles to be delivered by the SS. Funk replied that it was confiscated property from the Eastern Occupied Territories, and that I should ask no further questions. I protested against the Reichsbank handling this material. Funk stated that we were to go ahead with the arrangements for handling the material, and that we were to keep the matter absolutely secret.

“4. I then made the necessary arrangements with one of the responsible officials in charge of the cash and safes departments for receiving the material, and reported the matter to the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank at its next meeting. On the same day Pohl, of the economic section of the SS, telephoned me and asked if I had been advised of the matter. I said I would not discuss it by telephone. He then came to see me and reported that the SS had some jewelry for delivery to the Reichsbank for safekeeping. I arranged with him for delivery and from then on deliveries were made from time to time, from August 1942 throughout the following years.

“5. The material deposited by the SS included jewelry, watches, eyeglass frames, dental gold, and other gold articles in great abundance, taken by the SS from Jews, concentration camp victims, and other persons. This was brought to our knowledge by SS personnel who attempted to convert this material into cash and who were helped in this by the Reichsbank personnel with Funk’s approval and knowledge. In addition to jewels and gold and other such items, the SS also delivered bank notes, foreign currency, and securities to the Reichsbank to be handled by the usual legal procedure established for such items. As far as the jewelry and gold were concerned, Funk told me that Himmler and Von Krosigk, the Reich Minister of Finance, had reached an agreement according to which the gold and similar articles were on deposit for the account of the State and that the proceeds resulting from the sale thereof would be credited to the Reich Treasury.

“6. From time to time, in the course of my duties, I visited the vaults of the Reichsbank and observed what was in storage. Funk also visited the vaults from time to time.

“7. The Golddiskontobank, at the direction of Funk, also established a revolving fund which finally reached 10 to 12 million Reichsmark for the use of the economic section of the SS to finance production of materials by concentration camp labor in factories run by the SS.

“I am conversant with the English language and declare that the statements made herein are true to the best of my knowledge and belief.”

Document Number 3944-PS; it is signed by Emil Puhl and duly witnessed.

Mr. President, I would like to offer this affidavit as Exhibit USA-846 and the film as Exhibit USA-845.

[Turning to the defendant.] Now, Witness, having heard this affidavit from your close associate and your brother director of the Board of Directors of the Reichsbank, and the man who, you admitted yesterday was a credible and truthful man, what do you now say to this Tribunal about your knowledge of what was going on between your bank and the SS?

FUNK: I declare that this affidavit by Herr Puhl is not true. I spoke to Herr Puhl about the entire matter of these gold deposits, as I have repeatedly stated, three times at most, but I believe it was only twice. I never exchanged a word with Herr Puhl regarding precious stones and jewelry. It is incredible to me that a man who most certainly also carried out certain functions in his agreements with the SS—that is, with Herr Pohl—now tries to put the blame on me. On no account will I take this responsibility and I request that Herr Puhl be called here, and that in my presence he may declare in all detail when, where, and how he has spoken to me about these different items, and to what extent I told him what to do.

I repeat my statement that I knew nothing about jewelry and other deliveries from concentration camps, and that I have never spoken to Herr Puhl about these things. I can only say again what I said at the beginning, that Herr Puhl once told me that a gold deposit had arrived from the SS. I remember it now, it had escaped me as I did not pay too much attention to the entire matter. I remember that, urged by him, I spoke to the Reichsführer about whether the Reichsbank could utilize these items. The Reichsführer said, “Yes.” But at no time did I speak to the Reichsführer about jewelry and precious stones and watches and such things. I spoke only of gold.

Concerning what Puhl states about a financing scheme—I believe that goes back a number of years—I know Herr Puhl came to me one day and said that he was asked to give a credit for certain factories of the SS and somebody was negotiating with him about the matter. I asked him, “Is this credit secure? Do we get interest?” He said, “Yes, up till now they have had a credit from the Dresdner Bank and it must now be repaid.” I said, “Very well, do that.” After that I never heard anything more about this matter. It is news to me that this credit was so large, that it was made by the Golddiskontobank. I do not remember it, but it is entirely possible. However, I never heard any more about this credit, which Herr Puhl had given to certain factories. He always spoke about factories, about businesses; it was a bank credit which had previously been given by a private bank. I remember I asked him once, “Has this credit been repaid?” That was some considerable time later. He said, “No, it has not been repaid yet.” That is all I know about these matters.

MR. DODD: All right. Now, what do you know about this—one part of the affidavit you have not covered—what do you know about the last part that says you established a revolving fund for the SS for the building of factories near the concentration camps? Do you remember that? I read it to you. Puhl says, “The Reichsbank, at the direction of Funk, established a revolving fund which finally reached 10 to 12 million Reichsmark for the use of the economic section of the SS to finance production of materials by concentration camp labor in factories run by the SS.” Do you admit that you did that?

FUNK: Yes, that is what I just mentioned; that Herr Puhl told me one day, I believe in 1939 or 1940, that some gentlemen from the economic section of the SS had spoken to him regarding a credit, which until that time had been granted by the Dresdner Bank and which they would now like to have from the Reichsbank. I asked Herr Puhl, “Will we get interest; is the credit secure?” He said, “Yes.” So I said, “Give them this credit,” and later on I said just what I mentioned above. That is all I know about the matter. I know nothing more.

MR. DODD: Now, you also got a fee for handling these materials that you saw in the film, did you not, from the SS? The bank was paid for carrying on its part of this program?

FUNK: I did not understand that.

MR. DODD: I say, is it not a fact that you received payment from the SS over this period of more than 3 years for handling these materials which they turned over to you?

FUNK: I do not know about that.

MR. DODD: Well, you would know, would you not, as President of the bank, if you did receive payment? How could you help knowing?

FUNK: These were probably such small payments that no one ever reported them to me. I do not know anything about any payment from the SS.

MR. DODD: What would you say if I tell you that Herr Puhl said that the bank did receive payment during these years, and that there were altogether some 77 shipments of materials such as you saw here this morning? Do you say that is untrue, or do you agree with it?

FUNK: That might be quite true, but I was never informed about these things. I know nothing about it.

MR. DODD: Is it conceivable that you, as President of the Reichsbank, could not know about 77 such shipments and about a transaction that you were being paid to handle? Do you think that is a likely story?

FUNK: If the Board of Directors did not report to me about these things, I cannot have known about them, and I declare again quite definitely that I was not informed about these details. On one occasion I was told about a gold deposit of the SS which was brought to us. Later on it transpired that it was a delivery from the SS. And then I knew about this credit transaction. That is all I know about these matters.

MR. DODD: Now, let me tell you something that may help you a little bit. As a matter of fact, your bank sent memoranda to people concerning this material from time to time, and I think you know about it, do you not? You made up memoranda stating what you had on hand and whom you were transferring it to. Are you familiar with any such memoranda?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: Well, then you had better take a look at Document Number 3948-PS, Exhibit USA-847, and see if it refreshes your memory. That is 3948-PS.

[The document was handed to the defendant.]

Now, this document is a memorandum apparently addressed to the Municipal Pawn Brokerage in Berlin, and it is dated 15 September 1942. Now, I am not going to read all of it, although it is a very interesting document, but as you can see, the memorandum says, “We submit to you the following valuables with the request for the best possible utilization.” Then you list 247 platinum and silver rings, 154 gold watches, 207 earrings, 1,601 gold earrings, 13 brooches with stones—I am just skipping through; I am not reading all of them—324 silver wrist watches, 12 silver candle sticks, goblets, spoons, forks, and knives, and then, if you follow down here quite a way, diverse pieces of jewelry and watch casings, 187 pearls, four stones said to be diamonds. And that is signed “Deutsche Reichsbank, Hauptkasse” and the signature is illegible. Perhaps, if you look at the original, you might tell us who signed it.

FUNK: No, I do not know who signed it.

MR. DODD: You have the original?

FUNK: I do not know.

MR. DODD: Well, look at the signature there and see if you recognize it as the signature of one of your workers.

FUNK: It says—somebody from our cashier’s office signed it. I do not know the signature.

MR. DODD: Somebody from your bank, was it not?

FUNK: Yes, from the cashier’s department. I do not know the signature.

MR. DODD: Do you want this Tribunal to believe that employees and people in your bank were sending lists out to municipal pawn brokers without it ever coming to your attention?

FUNK: I know nothing at all about these events. They can only be explained in that things were apparently delivered to the Reichsbank which it was not supposed to keep. That is obvious.

MR. DODD: Well, I would also like you to look at Document Number 3949-PS, which is dated 4 days later, 19 September 1942, Exhibit USA-848. Now, you will see this is a memorandum concerning the conversion of notes, gold, silver, and jewelry in favor of the Reich Minister of Finance, and it also says that it is “a partial statement of valuables received by our precious metals department.” Again I think it is unnecessary to read it all. You can look at it and read it, but the last two paragraphs, after telling what the shipments contained as they arrived on 26 August 1942, say:

“Before we remit the total proceeds, to date 1,184,345.59 Reichsmark to the Reichshauptkasse for the account of the Reich Minister of Finance, we beg to be informed under what reference number this amount and subsequent proceeds should be transferred.

“It might further be of advantage to call the attention of the responsible office of the Reich Minister of Finance in good time to the amounts to be transferred from the Deutsche Reichsbank.”

And again that is signed, “Deutsche Reichsbank, Hauptkasse,” and there is a stamp on there that says, “Paid by check, Berlin, 27 October 1942, Hauptkasse.”

FUNK: For this document, that is, this note to the Reich Minister of Finance, I believe I am able to give an explanation, and that is on the basis of testimony given here by witnesses who came from concentration camps. The witness Ohlendorf, if I remember correctly, and another one, have testified that the valuables which had been taken from the inmates of concentration camps had to be turned over and were delivered to the Reich Minister of Finance. Now, I assume that the technical procedure was that these things were first brought to the Reichsbank by mistake. The Reichsbank, however—and I keep repeating it—could do nothing with the pearls, jewelry, and similar items which are mentioned here, and therefore turned over these items to the Reich Minister of Finance or they were used for the account of the Reich Minister of Finance. That is apparent from this document. In other words, this merely is a statement of account sent by the Reichsbank for the Reich Minister of Finance. That is, I believe, the meaning of this document.

MR. DODD: Well, indeed, you did hear Ohlendorf say that these unfortunate people who were exterminated in these camps had their possessions turned over to the Reich Minister of Finance. I believe he testified to that effect here. Now, you also...

FUNK: That is what I heard here. These things were news to me. However, I did not know that the Reichsbank...

MR. DODD: You have told us that twice already.

FUNK: ...that the Reichsbank dealt with these matters in such detail.

MR. DODD: Are you telling us that you did not know they dealt with them in such detail, or that you did not know they dealt with them at all? I think that is important. What is your answer, that you did not know they went into them in such detail or that you did not know anything about it?

FUNK: I personally had nothing to do with it at all.

MR. DODD: Did you know about it?

FUNK: No.

MR. DODD: You never heard of it?

FUNK: I did not know at all that any jewelry, watches, cigarette cases, and so forth were delivered to the Reichsbank; that is news to me.

MR. DODD: Did you know that anything came from concentration camps to the Reichsbank? Anything at all?

FUNK: Yes, the gold, of course. I already said that.

MR. DODD: Gold teeth?

FUNK: I have said that—no.

MR. DODD: What gold from the concentration camps?

FUNK: The gold about which Herr Puhl had reported to me, and I assumed that these were coins and other gold which had to be deposited at the Reichsbank anyway, and which the Reichsbank could utilize according to the legal regulations. Otherwise, I know nothing about it.

MR. DODD: Just what did Himmler say to you and what did you say to Himmler when you had this conversation, as you tell us, about this gold from the concentration camp victims? I think the Tribunal might be interested in that conversation. What did he say, and what did you say, and where was the conversation held?

FUNK: I do not remember any more where the conversation was held. I saw Himmler very rarely, perhaps once or twice. I assume that it was on the occasion of a visit in the field quarters of Lammers, where Himmler’s field quarters were also located. It must have been there. On that occasion we spoke very, very briefly about that.

MR. DODD: Wait just a minute. Will you also tell us when it was?

FUNK: Possibly during the year 1943; it might have been 1944, I do not remember.

MR. DODD: All right.

FUNK: I attached no importance whatsoever to this matter. In the course of the conversation I put the question, “There is a gold deposit from you, from the SS, which we have at the Reichsbank. The members of the board of directors have asked me whether the Reichsbank can utilize that.” And he said, “Yes.” I did not say a word about jewelry or things of that kind or gold teeth or anything of that sort. The entire conversation referred only very briefly to this thing.

MR. DODD: Do you mean to tell us that an arrangement was made with your bank independently of you and Himmler, but by somebody in the SS and somebody in your bank—that you were not the original person who arranged the matter?

FUNK: That is right. It was not I.

MR. DODD: Who in your bank made that arrangement?

FUNK: Possibly it was Herr Puhl or maybe somebody else from the Reichsbank Directorate who made the arrangement with one of the gentlemen of the economic section in the SS. And I was only informed of it by Herr Puhl very briefly.

MR. DODD: Did you know Herr Pohl, P-o-h-l, of the SS?

FUNK: I imagine it was he. Herr Pohl never spoke to me about it.

MR. DODD: You do not know the man?

FUNK: I must certainly have seen him at some time, but Herr Pohl never spoke to me about these matters. I never spoke to him.

MR. DODD: Where did you see him, in the bank?

FUNK: Yes, I saw him once in the bank when he spoke to Puhl and other gentlemen of the Reichsbank Directorate during a luncheon. I walked through the room and I saw him sitting there but I personally never spoke with Herr Pohl about these questions. This is all news to me, this entire matter.

MR. DODD: Well, do you recall the testimony of the witness Hoess in this courtroom not so long ago? You remember the man? He sat where you are sitting now. He said that he exterminated between 2½ and 3 million Jews and other people at Auschwitz. Now, before I ask you the next question I want you to recall that testimony and I will point something out for you about it that may help you. You recall that he said that Himmler sent for him in June 1941, and that Himmler told him that the final solution of the Jewish problem was at hand, and that he was to conduct these exterminations. Do you recall that he went back and looked over the facilities in one camp in Poland and found it was not big enough to kill the number of people involved and he had to construct gas chambers that would hold 2,000 people at a time, and so his extermination program could not have got under way until pretty late in 1941, and you observe that your assistant and credible friend Puhl says it was in 1942 that these shipments began to arrive from the SS?

FUNK: No, I know nothing about the date. I do not know when these things happened. I had nothing to do with them. It is all news to me that the Reichsbank was concerned with these things to this extent.

MR. DODD: Then I take it you want to stand on an absolute denial that at any time you had any knowledge of any kind about these transactions with the SS or their relationship to the victims of the concentration camps. After seeing this film, after hearing Puhl’s affidavit, you absolutely deny any knowledge at all?

FUNK: Only as far as I have mentioned it here.

MR. DODD: I understand that; there was some deposit of gold made once, but no more than that. That is your statement. Let me ask you something, Mr. Funk...

FUNK: Yes; that these things happened consistently is all news to me.

MR. DODD: All right. You know you did on one occasion at least, and possibly two, break down and weep when you were being interrogated, you recall, and you did say you were a guilty man; and you gave an explanation of that yesterday. You remember those tears. I am just asking you now; I am sure you do. I am just trying to establish the basis here for another question. You remember that happened?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. DODD: And you said, “I am a guilty man.” You told us yesterday it was because you were upset a little bit in the general situation. I am suggesting to you that is it not a fact that this matter that we have been talking about since yesterday has been on your conscience all the time and that was really what is on your mind, and it has been a shadow on you ever since you have been in custody? And is it not about time that you told the whole story?

FUNK: I cannot tell more to the Tribunal than I have already said, that is the truth. Let Herr Puhl be responsible before God for what he put in the affidavit; I am responsible for what I state here. It is absolutely clear that Herr Puhl is now trying to put the blame on me and to exculpate himself. If he has done these things for years with the SS, it is his guilt and his responsibility. I have only spoken to him two or three times about these things, that is, about the things I have mentioned here.

MR. DODD: You are trying to put the blame on Puhl, are you not?

FUNK: No. He is blaming me and I repudiate that.

MR. DODD: The trouble is, there was blood on this gold, was there not, and you knew this since 1942?

FUNK: I did not understand.

MR. DODD: Well, I would like to ask you one or two questions about two short documents. It will take but a short time. You told the Tribunal yesterday that you had nothing to do with any looting of these occupied countries. Do you know what the Roges corporation was?

FUNK: Yes. I do not know in detail what they did. I know only that it was an organization which made official purchases for various Reich departments.

MR. DODD: This Roges corporation purchased on the black market in France with the surpluses from the occupation cost fund, did it not?

FUNK: I was against this type of purchases in the black market.

MR. DODD: I am not asking you whether you were for it or against it. I was simply asking you if it is not a fact that they did it.

FUNK: I do not know.

MR. DODD: All right. You had better take a look at Document Number 2263-PS, which is written by one of your associates, Dr. Landfried, whom you also asked for as a witness here and from whom you have an interrogatory. This is a letter dated 6 June 1942, addressed to the Chief of the OKW Administrative Office:

“In answer to my letter of 25 April 1942”—and so on—“100 million Reichsmark were put at my disposal from the Occupation Cost Fund by the OKW. This amount has already been disposed of except for 10 million Reichsmark, since the demands of the Roges (Raw Material Trading Company), Berlin, for the acquisition of merchandise on the black market in France, were very heavy. In order not to permit a stoppage in the flow of purchases which are made in the interest of the prosecution of the war, further amounts from the occupation cost fund must be made available. According to information from Roges and from the economic department of the Military Commander in France, at least 30 million Reichsmark in French francs are needed every 10 days for such purchases.

“As, according to information received from Roges, an increase of purchases is to be expected, it will not be sufficient to make available the remaining 100 million Reichsmark in accordance with my letter of 25 April 1942, but over and above this, an additional amount of 100 million Reichsmark will be necessary.”

It is very clear from that letter written by your associate Landfried that the Roges corporation, which was set up by your Ministry, was engaged in black market operations in France with money extorted from the French through excessive occupation costs, is it not?

FUNK: That the Roges made such purchases is true. These things have already been dealt with here in connection with the orders and directives which the Four Year Plan gave for these purchases on the black market. However, these are purchases which were arranged and approved by the state organization. What we especially fought against were the purchases without limits in the black market. I already mentioned yesterday that I finally succeeded in getting a directive from the Reich Marshal that all purchases in the black market were to be stopped because through these purchases naturally merchandise was withdrawn from the legal markets.

MR. DODD: You told us that yesterday. That was 1943. There was not much left in France on the black market or white market or any other kind of market by that time, was there? That country was pretty well stripped by that time, as is shown in the letters.

FUNK: In 1943 I believe a great deal was still coming from France. There was continuous production going on in France and it was considerable. The official French statistics show that even in 1943 large quantities of the total production were being diverted to Germany. These quantities were not a great deal less than in 1941 and ’42.

MR. DODD: Well, in any event I also want you to talk a little bit about Russia, because I understood you to say yesterday you did not have much to do with that. Schlotterer was your man who was assigned to work with Rosenberg, was he not?

FUNK: From the beginning I assigned Ministerial Director Dr. Schlotterer to Rosenberg, so that only one economic department, the competent department for the Minister for the Eastern Occupied Territories, would work in Russia, and not two.

DR. DODD: That is all I want to know. He was assigned. And he participated in the program of stripping Russia of machines, materials, and goods, which went on for some considerable period of time; you knew about it.

FUNK: No, that is not true. This man did not have this task. These transactions were handled by the Economic Department East which, I think, came under the Four Year Plan. As far as I know these transactions were not handled by Minister Rosenberg and certainly not by the Ministry of Economics.

MR. DODD: It is a different story on different occasions. I think the best way is to read your interrogation. On 19 October 1945 you were interrogated here in Nuremberg. You were asked this question:

“And part of the plan was to take machines, materials and goods out of Russia and bring them into Germany, was it not?”

And you answered:

“Yes, most certainly, but I did not participate in that. But in any case it was done.”

The next question:

“Question: Yes, and you yourself participated in the discussions concerning these plans, and also your representative, Dr. Schlotterer?

“Answer: I myself did not participate.

“Question: But you gave the power to act for you in that connection to Dr. Schlotterer?

“Answer: Yes; Schlotterer represented me in economic questions in the Rosenberg Ministry.”

FUNK: No, that is not true. This testimony is completely confused, because Schlotterer joined the Rosenberg Ministry. He became head of the economic department there. Also, this testimony is not true to this extent, since we certainly sent more machines into Russia than we took out of Russia. When our troops came to Russia everything had been destroyed, and in order to put the economy there in order, we had to send large quantities of machinery and other goods to Russia.

MR. DODD: Do you mean to say that you did not make these answers that I have just read to you when you were interrogated?

FUNK: Those answers are not correct.

MR. DODD: You know, it is very interesting that you told us yesterday that the answers to the questions put to you by Major Gans were incorrect. I posed another interrogation to you yesterday and you said that was incorrect. Now a third man has interrogated you, and you say that one is incorrect.

FUNK: No, I say what I said is wrong.

MR. DODD: Well, of course, that is what I am talking about.

FUNK: That is wrong.

MR. DODD: I will submit that interrogation in evidence; it is not in form to be submitted, but I would like to submit it a little later, with the Tribunal’s permission.

THE PRESIDENT: You will inform us, when you do, as to the number and so on?

MR. DODD: Yes, I will. I have no further questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other prosecutors wish to cross-examine?

STATE COUNSELLOR OF JUSTICE M. Y. RAGINSKY (Assistant Prosecutor for the U.S.S.R.): After Mr. Dodd’s cross-examination I have a few supplementary questions to ask.

Defendant Funk, you testified yesterday that your Ministry at the time of the attack on the Soviet Union had very limited functions, and that you yourself were not a minister in the true sense of the word. In this connection I want to ask you a few questions regarding the structure of the Ministry of Economics. Tell me, are you familiar with the book by Hans Quecke, entitled, The Reich Ministry of Economics? Do you know about this book?

FUNK: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You do not know? Are you familiar with the name of Hans Quecke?

FUNK: Hans Quecke?

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes. Hans Quecke. He was a counsellor in the Ministry of Economics.

FUNK: Quecke was a ministerial director in the Ministry of Economics.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: And he, of course, knew about the structure of the Ministry of Economics and about its functions. Am I right?

FUNK: Certainly. He must have known about that.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I present this book in evidence to the Tribunal as Exhibit USSR-451, and you, Witness, will receive a photostat copy of the section of this book in order that you can follow me. Please open it at Page 65, last paragraph. Have you found the passage in question?

FUNK: I have not found it yet. I can only see...

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Page 65, last paragraph of the page.

FUNK: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You have found it, yes?

FUNK: The structure of the Reich Ministry of Economics?

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: It gives the structure of the Ministry of Economics as on 1 July 1941. Your permanent deputy was a certain Dr. Landfried. Is that the same Landfried whose testimony was presented by the Defense Counsel?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I must ask you to follow the text:

“Landfried had under him a special department which was in charge of fundamental questions of supply of raw materials for the military economy.”

Defendant Funk, I am asking you...

FUNK: Just a moment. Where is that?

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: It is in Section 2, Part II. Have you found it?

FUNK: No, there is nothing here about war economy. I do not see anything about war economy. Auslands-Organisation...

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Part II, Subparagraph 2.

FUNK: It says nothing about war economy here.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I shall read the entire paragraph into the record. We shall get down to the Auslands-Organisation in good time.

FUNK: This is a special section.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, a special section.

FUNK: Directly subordinate to the State Secretary here is Section S, Special Section, basic questions of the supply of raw materials, basic questions of war economy, basic questions of...

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: It is precisely about this war economy that I wish to speak. He was also in charge of the fundamental market policy and of economic questions in the border territories. The ministry consisted of five main departments. Am I right?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: The third main department was headed by Schmeer? Am I right?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You had a special department entitled, “Elimination of the Jews from Economic Life.” That was in 1941? Am I right?

FUNK: Yes; that was the time we dealt with these matters; in that department the regulations for carrying out these orders were dealt with. We discussed them at length yesterday.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Defendant Funk, I ask you to follow the text: “The fourth main department was headed by Ministerialdirektor Dr. Klucki, and this department was in charge of banks, currency, credit and insurance matters.” Is that a fact?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I presume that you must know the structure of your own ministry and we need not waste time in further discussions. You must know that the fifth main department was headed by State Secretary Von Jagwitz. This department was in charge of special economic problems in different countries. The fifth section of this department attended to questions of military economy connected with foreign economy. Am I right?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: The same department dealt with special foreign payments as well as with the blocked deposits...

FUNK: I do not understand. This is the Foreign Trade Department. They merely dealt with the technical carrying-out of the foreign exports.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Take the section dealing with foreign currencies. Have you found the passage?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You have found that it deals with blocked deposits. Were you at all connected with the collaboration existing between your ministry and the Office of Foreign Affairs of the NSDAP? Is my question clear to you?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: And your ministry had a special section dealing with these matters?

FUNK: Only this office. That can be explained in this manner. The Under State Secretary, Von Jagwitz, who was the head of this main department, was also active in the Auslands-Organisation. He had created a liaison office for himself in the ministry to deal with economic questions which came to the ministry—to this department, which was the Export Department, the Foreign Department—via the Auslands-Organisation. This concerned Von Jagwitz only, who at the same time was active in the Auslands-Organisation and maintained a liaison office.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Then we are to understand that the Foreign Political Department had special economic functions abroad, and that it co-operated with your ministry in this sense? Is that correct?

FUNK: No, that is not correct.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Then why did this department exist?

FUNK: It was not a department, but the Under State Secretary, Von Jagwitz, was at the same time active in the Auslands-Organisation. I do not know in what position. He was active in the Auslands-Organisation before he was taken into the ministry by the Reich Marshal. Then he himself created a kind of liaison office between his department and the Auslands-Organisation. That is, frequently economists from abroad belonging to the Auslands-Organisation of the NSDAP came to Berlin, and these people came to Under State Secretary Von Jagwitz and discussed their business with him and they reported to him about their experience and knowledge of foreign countries. I do not know any more about it.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You wish to convince us that this was the personal initiative of Von Jagwitz, and that you as minister knew nothing at all about it?

FUNK: Certainly, I knew about it. He did it with my knowledge, with my knowledge and approval...

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Please follow the text and you had better listen to what I want to say. I read the last paragraph which states:

“To the Main Department V is attached the office of the Auslands-Organisation with the Reich Ministry of Economics. This office secures the co-operation between the ministry and the Auslands-Organisation of the Nazi Party.”

This means that no mention is made of any private initiative of Von Jagwitz, as you tried to persuade us, but this department really was a part of your ministry. Have you found the passage?

FUNK: Yes. Herr Von Jagwitz had this liaison office and essentially it was limited to his person. It was a liaison office for collaboration with the Auslands-Organisation, which was a perfectly natural procedure in many cases. I do not see why this should be unusual or criminal.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: We shall come back to the question at a later stage. Mr. President, I should like to pass over to another part. Would it be convenient to have a short recess now? I have a few more questions to ask.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well; the Tribunal will recess.

[A recess was taken.]

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You mentioned yesterday that you were the Plenipotentiary for Economy, but not a plenipotentiary in the full sense of the word. Schacht was the true plenipotentiary and you were merely a secondary one. Do you remember your article entitled “Economic and Financial Mobilization”? Do you remember what you wrote at that time?

FUNK: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, we are not going to waste any time on that question. I shall remind you of it. I submit to the Tribunal in evidence Exhibit USSR-452 (Document Number USSR-452), an article by Funk, published in the monthly journal of the NSDAP and of the German Labor Front, entitled “Der Schulungsbrief,” in 1939.

[Turning to the defendant.] You wrote at that time:

“As the Plenipotentiary for Economy appointed by the Führer, I must see to it that during the war all the forces of the nation should be secured also from the economic point of view.”

Have you found this passage?

FUNK: Yes, I have found it.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Further on you wrote:

“The contribution of economy to the great political aims of the Führer demands not only a strong and unified direction of all the economic and political measures, but also above all careful co-ordination.... Industry; food, agriculture, forestry, timber industry, foreign trade, transport, manpower, the regulation of wages and prices, finance, credits must be coordinated, so that the entire economic potential should serve in the defense of the Reich. In order to fulfill this task, the authorities of the Reich in charge of these spheres are included in my authority in my capacity as Plenipotentiary for Economy.”

Do you confirm that this is precisely what you wrote in 1939?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Is that question not quite clear to you?

THE PRESIDENT: He said, “Yes.”

FUNK: I said, “Yes”; I certainly wrote that.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You confirm it. You know about the issue in June 1941 of the so-called “Green File” of Göring? It was read into the record here. These are directives for the control of economy or, rather, directives for the spoliation of the occupied territories of the U.S.S.R. How did you personally participate in the planning of these directives?

FUNK: I do not know that. I do not know any more whether or not I participated at all.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You do not remember? How is it possible that these documents were planned without you, Reich Minister of Economics, the President of the Reichsbank, and Plenipotentiary for Economy and the armament industry?

FUNK: First, at that time I was no longer Plenipotentiary for Economy. I was never plenipotentiary for the armament industry. The powers of the Plenipotentiary for Economy, shortly after the beginning of the war, were turned over to the Delegate for the Four Year Plan. That has been repeatedly confirmed and emphasized and what I did personally at that time concerning economy in the Occupied Eastern Territories can only have been very, very little. I do not remember it because the administration of economy in the Occupied Eastern Territories was in charge of the Economic Staff East and the Delegate of the Four Year Plan, and that office, of course, co-operated with the Rosenberg Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories. Personally I remember only that, as I mentioned yesterday, in the course of time the Ministry of Economics sent individual businessmen, merchants, from Hamburg and from Cologne, et cetera, to the East in order to secure private economic activities in the Eastern Occupied Territories.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, we have already heard what “activities” you dealt with. Your name for spoliation is “private economic activities.” Do you remember the Prague Conference of December 1941—the meeting of the economic organization—or must I remind you of it?

FUNK: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Not necessary?

FUNK: During the interrogations my attention was called by General Alexandrov to this speech, and I told him at that time already that there was a wrong newspaper report about me which I had rectified later or after a short time.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Just a minute, Defendant Funk. You are slightly anticipating events. You do not yet know what I am going to ask you. First listen to me and then reply. You have informed the Tribunal that you never attended any meeting of Hitler’s at which the political and economic aims of the attack on the Soviet Union were discussed, that you did not know of any purpose and of any declared plans of Hitler for the territorial dismemberment of the Soviet Union, and yet you yourself declared in your statement that “the East will be the future colony of Germany,” Germany’s colonial territory. Did you say that the East would be the future colonial territory of Germany?

FUNK: No; I denied that in my interrogation. I immediately said, after this was presented to me, that I was speaking of the old German colonial territories. General Alexandrov can confirm that. He questioned me at that time.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I have no intention of calling General Alexandrov as a witness. I am only asking you if you did say so; was it written as stated?

FUNK: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You stated that you did not have to be reminded, but that is precisely what was mentioned in your speech, and I am going to quote verbatim from this speech:

“The vast territories of the eastern European region, containing raw materials which have not yet been opened up to Europe, will become the promising colonial territory of Europe.”

And exactly what Europe were you discussing in December 1941 and what former German territories did you wish to mention to the Tribunal? I am asking you.

FUNK: I have not said that. I said that I did not speak about colonial territories, but of the old colonization areas of Germany.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, but we are not speaking here of old territories; we are speaking here of new territories which you wished to conquer.

FUNK: The area had been conquered already. We did not have to conquer that. That had been conquered by German troops.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: No. It was not known that they were conquered, since you were already retreating from them.

You said that you were the President of the Continental Oil Company. This company was organized for the exploitation of the oil fields of the Occupied Eastern Territories, especially in the districts of Grozny and Baku. Please answer me “yes” or “no.”

FUNK: Not only of the Occupied Territories—this company was concerned with oil industries all over Europe. It had its beginnings in the Romanian oil interests and whenever German troops occupied territories where there were oil deposits, that company, which was a part of the Four Year Plan, was given the task by the various economic offices, later by the armament industry, of producing oil in these territories and of restoring the destroyed oil-producing districts. The company had a tremendous reconstruction program. I personally was the president of the supervisory board and I mainly had to do the financing of that company only.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: That I have already heard. But you have not answered my question.

I asked you if this company had as object the exploitation of the Grozny and Baku oil wells. Did the oil wells of the Caucasus form the basic capital of the Continental Oil Company?

FUNK: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: No? I am satisfied with your reply.

FUNK: That is not right. We had not conquered the Caucasus and therefore the Continental Oil Company could not be active in the Caucasus.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: All right. But Rosenberg at that time had already made a report on the conquest and exploitation of the Caucasus. Do you remember that here, before the Tribunal, a transcript of the minutes of a meeting held at Göring’s office on 6 August 1942 with the Reich Commissioners of the Occupied Territories was read into the record? Do you remember that meeting?

FUNK: Yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Did you participate in this meeting?

FUNK: That I do not know. Did they speak about the oil territories of the Caucasus in that meeting? That I do not know.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: No, I do not wish to say anything as yet. I shall ask you a question and you will answer. I ask you: Did you participate in that meeting?

FUNK: I cannot remember. It may very well be.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You do not remember?

FUNK: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: In that case you will be shown a document. It has already been submitted to the Tribunal, and was here read into the record. It is Exhibit Number USSR-170; it has already been presented. As stated at that meeting, the most effective measures for the economic spoliation of the Occupied Territories of the U.S.S.R., Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, and other countries were discussed. At this meeting Defendant Göring addressed himself to you. Do you remember whether you were present at that meeting or not?

FUNK: Yes, indeed. I remember that. But what Göring told me then refers to the fact that, a long time after the Russian territories had been occupied, we sent businessmen there to bring into those territories any goods that might interest the population. For instance it says here: “Businessmen must be sent there.... We must send them to Venice to buy up these things in order to re-sell them in the occupied Russian territories.” That is what Göring told me on that occasion. At least, that is what can be read here.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I did not ask you about that, Defendant Funk. Were you present at that meeting or not? Could you answer that question?

FUNK: Of course. Since Göring talked to me, I must have been there. It was on 7 August 1942.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Defendant Funk, you have replied here to certain questions asked by Mr. Dodd regarding the increase of the gold reserve of the Reichsbank; I should like to ask you the following question: You have stated that the gold reserves of the Reichsbank were increased only by the gold reserves of the Belgian Bank; but did you not know that 23,000 kilograms of gold were stolen from the National Bank of Czechoslovakia and transferred to the Reichsbank?

FUNK: I did not know that it had been stolen.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Then what do you know?

FUNK: I stated explicitly here yesterday that the gold deposits had been increased mostly by the taking over of the gold of the Czech National Bank and the Belgian Bank. I spoke especially of the Czech National Bank yesterday.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes, but I am not asking you about the Belgian Bank, but about the Bank of Czechoslovakia.

FUNK: Yes, I mentioned it yesterday. I said so yesterday...

THE PRESIDENT: He said that just now. He said that he had spoken about the Czechoslovakian gold deposits.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Mr. President, he did not mention Czechoslovakia yesterday and I am asking him this question today. But if he replies to this question in the affirmative, I shall not interrogate him any further on the matter, since he will have confirmed it.

[Turning to the defendant.] I now pass on to the next question, to the question of Yugoslavia. On 14 April 1941, that is, prior to the complete occupation of Yugoslavia, the Commander-in-Chief of the German Army issued a directive for the occupied Yugoslav territories. This is Exhibit USSR-140; it has already been submitted to the Tribunal. Subparagraph 9 of this directive determines the compulsory rate of Yugoslav exchange—20 Yugoslav dinars to the German mark. And the same compulsory rate of exchange, which had been applied to the Yugoslav dinar, was also applied to the Reich credit notes issued by the Reich Foreign Currency Institute.

These currency operations permitted the German invaders to export from Yugoslavia at a very cheap rate various merchandise as well as other valuables. Similar operations were carried out in all the Occupied Eastern Territories, and I ask you: Do you admit that such operations were one of the means for the economic spoliation of the Occupied Eastern Territories?

FUNK: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Very well.

FUNK: That depends on the relation of the exchange rate. In some cases, in particular in the case of France, I protested against the underevaluation...

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Excuse me just one minute, Defendant Funk. You have already spoken about France and I do not want to take up the time of the Tribunal unnecessarily. I think you ought to answer my question.

FUNK: At the moment I do not know what the exchange rate between the dinar and the mark was at that time. In general, insofar as I had anything to do with it—I did not make the directive; that came from the Minister of Finance and from the Armed Forces—insofar as I had anything to do with it I always urged that the rate should not differ too greatly from the rate which existed and which was based on the purchasing power. At the moment I cannot say what the exchange rate for dinars was at that time. Of course, Reich credit notes had to be introduced with the troops because otherwise we would have had to issue special requisition vouchers, and that would have been much worse than introducing an official means of payment, as is now being done here in Germany by the Allies, because working with requisition vouchers is much more disadvantageous and harmful for the population and the entire country than working with a recognized means of payment. We invented the Reich credit notes ourselves.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: In other words, you wish to state that you had nothing to do with it and that the entire matter rested with the Ministry of Finance. Then tell me please, are you aware of the testimony given by your assistant, Landfried, whose affidavit was submitted by your defense counsel? You will remember that Landfried stated and affirmed something totally different. He said that in the determination of exchange rates in the occupied territories yours was the final and determining voice. Do you not agree with this statement?

FUNK: When these rates were determined, I, as President of the Reichsbank, was of course consulted and, as can be confirmed by every document, I always advocated that the new rates should be as close as possible to the old rates established on the basis of the purchasing power, that is to say, no underevaluation.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Consequently, the compulsory rate of exchange in the occupied countries was introduced with your knowledge and according to your instructions?

FUNK: Not on the basis of my directives. I was only asked for advice.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Your advice?

FUNK: I had to give my approval. That is, the Reichsbank Directorate formally gave the approval, but...

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I am satisfied with your reply. I now go on to the next question. On 29 May 1941 the Commander-in-Chief in Serbia issued an order regarding the Serbian National Bank, which order has already been submitted as Exhibit USSR-135. This order liquidated the National Bank of Yugoslavia and divided the entire property of the bank between Germany and her satellites. Instead of the National Bank of Yugoslavia a fictitious so-called Serbian Bank was created, whose directors were appointed by the German Plenipotentiary for National Economy in Serbia. Tell me, do you know who was the Plenipotentiary for National Economy in Serbia?

FUNK: It was probably the Consul General Franz Neuhausen, the representative of the Four Year Plan.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Yes. It was Franz Neuhausen. Was he a collaborator in the Ministry of Economics?

FUNK: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: He never worked in the Ministry of Economics?

FUNK: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: He never worked there?

FUNK: Neuhausen? No, he never worked in the Ministry of Economics.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Was he a collaborator of Göring’s?

FUNK: Yes, that is correct.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: Well, he was a collaborator of Göring’s. Do you admit that such specific currency operations, as a result of which the Yugoslavian Government and its citizens were robbed of several million dinars, could not have been carried out without your participation and without the co-operation of the departments within your jurisdiction?

FUNK: I do not know in detail the directives according to which the liquidation was carried out and by which the new Serbian National Bank was founded, but it goes without saying that the Reichsbank participated in such a transaction.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I want to ask you two more questions. Together with the unconcealed spoliation, consisting in the confiscations and requisitions which the German invaders carried out in the Occupied Territories of Eastern Europe, they also exploited these countries to the limit of their economic resources by applying various exchange and economic measures, such as depreciation of currency, seizure of the banks, artificial decrease of prices and wages, thus continuing the economic spoliation of the occupied territories. Do you admit that this was precisely the policy of Germany in the Occupied Territories of Eastern Europe?

FUNK: No.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: You do not admit this?

FUNK: In no way whatsoever.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I now submit to the Tribunal Document USSR-453. This is a new document, consisting of notes on a conference held by the Reich Commissioner for the determination of prices on 22 April 1943. Price experts from all the occupied territories attended this conference. I shall now read into the record some excerpts from this document. It says on Page 2:

“The 5½ million foreign workers are composed of: 1½ million prisoners of war, 4 million civilian workers.”

The document further says:

“1,200,000 from the East, 1,000,000 from the former Polish territories... 200,000 citizens of the Protectorate... 65,000 Croatians, 50,000 remainder of Yugoslavia (Serbia)”—and so on.

Further this document also says in connection with the equalization of prices:

“Price equalization should be operated to the debit of the producer countries, that is, through the Central Clearing Office, which for the most part is to the advantage of the occupied countries.”

On Page 14 it is stated:

“These price deliberations were of no importance for the occupied territories, since the main interest did not lie in the welfare of the population but in the utilization of all the economic forces of the country.”

On Page 16 we find the following, excerpt:

“Concerning the Occupied Eastern Territories, Ministerial Counselor Roemer has stated that prices there are far below German prices, and so far the Reich has already reaped large import profits.”

Mention is made, on Page 19, of Germany’s clearing debt, which amounted to 9,300,000 marks. At the same time the clearing balance for Czechoslovakia showed a deficit of 2,000,000; for the Ukraine of 82,500,000; for Serbia of 219,000,000; for Croatia of 85,000,000; and for Slovakia of 301,000,000 marks.

And finally, on Page 22 of the document, it says:

“The prices in the Occupied Eastern Territories are kept at the lowest possible level. We have already realized import profits which are being used to cover Reich debts. Wages are generally only one-fifth of what they are in Germany.”

You must admit that the planned robbery perpetrated by the German invaders on so gigantic a scale could never have been carried out without your active participation as Minister of Economics, President of the Reichsbank, and Plenipotentiary for Economy?

FUNK: I must again stress that during the war I was no longer Plenipotentiary for Economy. But may I state my position to this document? First, there is the figure of the number of the workers which were brought from the occupied territories and other foreign countries into Germany. I have emphasized, myself, and it has been confirmed by other statements, that I was basically against bringing in foreign manpower from occupied territories to such an extent as to impair the economic order in those territories. I am not even speaking about recruitment of forced labor. I also opposed that. When an expert whom I do not know says that the deliberations about price policy were of no importance for the occupied territories, because the main interest did not lie with the welfare of the population but in the exploitation of economic forces, I must contradict that point of view. In any case, it is not my point of view. I do not know who the man was who said that, but it is a matter of course that a territory cannot produce well unless the economy is kept on a good footing and prices are fixed at a level which enables the people to exist and to maintain social order. So I have to oppose this point of view also. As far as the clearing debt is concerned, I explained yesterday in detail that the clearing system was in common usage for Germany, and that I have always recognized and confirmed that these clearing debts were genuine debts which, after the war, had to be repaid in the currency in which they were incurred, based on the purchasing power at that time. I do not see any spoliation here.

Moreover, I must again stress the fact that I was not competent for the economy in the occupied territories, that I had no power to give a directive there and that I participated only insofar as I detailed officials to individual offices, just as all other departments did, and that, of course, there was co-operation between these offices and the department at home. But I cannot assume responsibility for the economy in the occupied territories. The Reich Marshal definitely admitted that as far as economic questions are concerned, it was his responsibility.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I understand. You collaborated, and now you do not wish to bear the responsibility. You say that the expert has made the statement. But do you remember your testimony which you gave on 22 October 1945?

FUNK: I do not know what interrogation...

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: When you were asked about the compulsory mobilization of foreign workers you were also asked if you knew about it and if you had ever protested against it. Is that correct? You replied, “No, why should I be the one to protest against it?”

FUNK: That is not correct. I protested against the compulsory recruitment of workers and against so many workers having been taken out of occupied territory that the local economy could no longer produce. That is not correct.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I have one last question to ask you. Do you remember an article published in the newspaper Das Reich, dated 18 August 1940, in connection with your 50th birthday? This article is entitled, “Walter Funk, Pioneer of National Socialist Economic Thought.” I shall read into the record a few excerpts from this article:

“From 1931 on, Walter Funk, as personal economic adviser and Plenipotentiary of the Führer for Economics, and therefore the untiring middleman between the Party and German economy, was the man who paved the way to the new spiritual outlook of the German industrialists.

“If in the outbreak of 1933 the differences which had existed for more than a decade in the public life of Germany between politics and economy, and especially between politics and the industrialists, disappeared overnight, if from the outset, the guiding rule of all labor has been an ever-increasing contribution towards a common end, this is due to the pioneering work of Funk, who since 1939 has directed his speeches and his writings to that end.”

And in the last paragraph of this article:

“Walter Funk remained true to himself because he was, and is, and will remain a National Socialist, a fighter who dedicates all his work to the idealistic aims of the Führer.”

The whole world knows what the ideals of the Führer were.

Do you admit that this article gives a correct appreciation of your personality and your activities?

FUNK: Generally, yes.

MR. COUNSELLOR RAGINSKY: I have no more questions to ask.

[Dr. Dix approached the lectern.]

THE PRESIDENT: What is it you wish to say, Dr. Dix?

DR. DIX: I have only one question for the witness, which was brought up by the cross-examination of Mr. Dodd. I could not put this question any sooner, since I am asking it only because of what Mr. Dodd said.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, go on.

DR. DIX: Witness, Mr. Dodd has put to you a record of your interrogation, according to which Schacht, after leaving the Reichsbank, still had a room there. You have heard the testimony of Schacht here. He testified clearly that he did not have a room at the Reichsbank but that the Reich Government put a room in his apartment at his disposal and contributed to the rent, and that the Reich Government paid a secretary whom he took with him from the Reichsbank, but who was now paid by the Reich Government and not by the Reichsbank. That was the testimony of Schacht. By your answer given to Mr. Dodd it was not quite clear whether you have any doubt about the correctness of that statement by Schacht. I ask for your opinion.

FUNK: I do not know anything about the apartment of Dr. Schacht. I was told at the time that he still came frequently to the Reichsbank and that a room was reserved for him. If that information was not correct, then it is not my fault. I do not doubt that what Dr. Schacht said is correct. He must know the arrangements concerning his apartment better than I do.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, do you wish to re-examine?

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, we have found this final questioning of the Defendant Dr. Funk harder to follow than the other cases, because the translation caused serious difficulties. I have to admit, frankly, that I have been able to understand only part of what has been said here. The defendant may probably have had the same difficulty and therefore I should like to reserve the right Mr. President, after I receive the stenographic record, to make one or two corrections, if the transcript should show this to be necessary. It has also been made more difficult for us, Mr. President, because in the course of cross-examination a large number of extensive documents was submitted to the Defendant Dr. Funk. We are gradually becoming used to those surprises. Moreover, the Defendant Funk was supposed to give answers to questions concerning documents which he had not issued which had nothing to do with his activities, which he...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal saw no sign at all of the Defendant Funk not being able to understand thoroughly every question put to him. And I think that therefore there is no reason for any protest on your behalf and you should go on to put any question you wish to put in re-examination—let us say, questions which arise out of the cross-examination.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, on our earphones, at least on this side, we could not understand quite a number of questions. Whether it applied to these particular earphones or to the entire apparatus I do not know.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, if the Defendant Funk did not understand any questions put to him, he could have said so. He did not say so. He answered all the questions from a logical point of view, perfectly accurately. You can ask him if you like, if he did not understand any of the questions put to him.

DR. SAUTER: Now, Herr Funk, the Prosecution among other things has put to you that you participated in the exploitation, the spoliation of France. In this connection is it correct that the merchandise, the consumer goods which came from France, were in many cases manufactured from raw materials which had come from Germany?

FUNK: Certainly. We continuously delivered coal, coke, iron, and other raw materials in France, so that they could produce goods—we delivered especially those raw materials which the French did not have in the country themselves. There was a very active exchange of production and a very close productive co-operation between the German and French economy. Even the same organizational methods were used.

DR. SAUTER: Dr. Funk, excerpts from an article which appeared on the occasion of your birthday have been read before. Do you know the author of that article?

FUNK: Yes, from the earlier years.

DR. SAUTER: Did he receive any factual material from you for that article?

FUNK: No.

DR. SAUTER: Did he not ask for it?

FUNK: No, I did not know anything about that article beforehand. I did not order a birthday article for myself.

DR. SAUTER: Precisely. So you did not know anything about that article and therefore, if I understand you correctly, there is no guarantee that what is said in this article is completely true.

FUNK: No. But I find that the tendency of the article is generally very good. The tendency...

DR. SAUTER: Witness, the American prosecutor confronted you yesterday with the matter of your negotiations with Rosenberg in the spring of 1941 and the fact that at that time, a few months before the march into Russia, you had these negotiations with Rosenberg. He apparently wanted to conclude that you had admitted, or wanted to admit, that you had known about the intention of Hitler to wage an aggressive war against Russia. You did not have a chance to say anything on this yesterday. Therefore I should like to give you another opportunity now to state very clearly what your belief was at that time concerning the intentions of Hitler in the spring of 1941, when you negotiated with Rosenberg, and what you knew about any possible causes for war before that time.

FUNK: As to the question of the American prosecutor, I did not understand it to mean that I knew anything about an aggressive war against Russia. The prosecutor spoke explicitly about preparations for war with Russia. I myself had already made it quite clear that I was completely surprised when the task was assigned to Rosenberg, and I was informed by Dr. Lammers as well as by Herr Rosenberg, that the reason for the assignment was that the Führer was expecting a war against Russia, because Russia was deploying large numbers of troops along the entire eastern border, because Russia had entered Bessarabia and Bukovina and because his negotiations with Molotov brought proof that Russia maintained an aggressive policy in the Balkans and the Baltic area, whereby Germany felt herself threatened. Therefore preparations had to be made on the part of Germany for a possible conflict with Russia. Also, concerning the meeting which the American prosecutor has mentioned, I said explicitly that the measures concerning currency which were discussed there were approved by me, because we created thereby stable currency conditions in the Occupied Eastern Territory. I was therefore opposed to the idea that the German Reichsmark, which the Russian population would not have accepted because they could not even read it, should be introduced there.

DR. SAUTER: Witness, the Soviet Russian prosecutor has pointed out again and again that you were not only Reichsbank President and Reichsminister of Economics, but also Plenipotentiary for Economy. You have corrected that already and pointed out that from the very beginning when you were appointed, your authority as Plenipotentiary for Economy was practically taken over by Göring, and that, I believe, in December of 1939, your authority as Plenipotentiary for Economy was also formally turned over to Göring.

MR. DODD: I wish to enter an objection not only to the form this examination is taking, but as to its substance. Counsel is in effect testifying himself, and he is testifying about matters that the witness testified to on direct examination, and it seems clear to us that this cannot be helpful at all to the Tribunal as a matter of re-direct examination.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, is it really proper for you to get the witness to go over again the evidence which he has already given? The only object of re-examination is to elucidate any questions which have not been properly answered in cross-examination. The witness has already dealt with the topics with which you are now dealing, in the same sense which you are now putting into it.

DR. SAUTER: I have repeated the statements only because I want to put a question to the witness now concerning a document which was submitted only yesterday, which had not been submitted until then, and to which I could therefore not take any position; and because the Soviet Russian prosecutor has again made the assertion here that the defendant also during the war was Plenipotentiary for Economy, although that is not correct. Mr. President...

THE PRESIDENT: I have heard myself the witness say over and over again that he was not the Plenipotentiary General for Economy during the war. He has repeatedly said that.

DR. SAUTER: But it has been repeated from this side. Mr. President, yesterday a document was submitted which bears the Document Number EC-488.

THE PRESIDENT: What is the document you want to deal with?

DR. SAUTER: Number EC-488. It was presented yesterday, and is a letter dated 28 January 1939. On the front page it is marked in large letters “Secret.” Here in the original is the heading, which is in capital letters, and it reads, “The Plenipotentiary for War Economy.” So much for the heading of the letter paper. Then the word “War” is crossed out, so that you can read only, “The Plenipotentiary for Economy.”

Therefore, before 28 January 1939 the title of Plenipotentiary for War Economy must have been changed to a new title, “Plenipotentiary for Economy.” I now ask that the defendant...

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I see. The copy that we have before us has not got the word “War” in it at all.

DR. SAUTER: It can be seen on the photostat.

THE PRESIDENT: I see it. But what is the question you want to put?

DR. SAUTER: At the time when this letter was written, the Plenipotentiary was the Defendant Funk. I should like to ask to be permitted to put the question to him, how it can be explained that the title of his office—that is, Plenipotentiary for War Economy—was changed. The question would be how it could be explained that the title of his office, “Plenipotentiary for War Economy” had been changed to the new title, “Plenipotentiary for Economy.”

FUNK: The reason is...

DR. SAUTER: One moment, Dr. Funk, please.

THE PRESIDENT: I did not ask you to stop putting your question. You can put your question. Go on. What is the question?

DR. SAUTER: Go on, Dr. Funk.

FUNK: The reason was that according to the old Reich Defense Law, Schacht had been appointed Plenipotentiary for War Economy, and on the basis of this second Reich Defense Law, which appointed me, I was appointed Plenipotentiary for Economy, because at that time it was quite clear that the special tasks concerning war economy—that is to say, armament industry, war economy proper—could no longer remain with the Plenipotentiary for Economy, but that he had essentially to co-ordinate the civilian economic departments.

DR. SAUTER: In connection with that, Mr. President, may I call your attention to another document which was submitted yesterday. That is Number 3562-PS. Here the heading already has the correct new title, “Plenipotentiary for Economy.” That is no more “Plenipotentiary for War Economy,” and that is also a new document which was submitted only yesterday. Mr. President...

MR. DODD: Just to keep the record straight, Mr. President, that Document 3562-PS is in evidence, and it was submitted by Lieutenant Meltzer at the time he presented the case against the individual Defendant Funk.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, am I not right in thinking that the Defendant Funk stated from the outset in his examination in chief that he was appointed Plenipotentiary General for Economy?

MR. DODD: Yes, indeed, Sir. That is as I thoroughly understand it.

THE PRESIDENT: And you have not challenged that?

MR. DODD: We have not challenged the fact that he said so. But we do challenge the fact that he, in fact, was only for economy. We do maintain that he, in fact, had much to do with the war effort as the Plenipotentiary.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. But he was not to be named that?

MR. DODD: No. And that Document EC-488 was not offered, anyway, for that purpose, but rather to show that the defendant was engaged in talking about what prisoners of war would do after an attack.

DR. SAUTER: Yesterday a document was produced about the interrogation of a certain Hans Posse. It is Document 3894-PS. The witness Hans Posse was formerly State Secretary in the Ministry of Economics and as such Deputy Plenipotentiary for Economy. That record has been submitted by the Prosecution in order to show that allegedly there was a struggle for power, as it says here, between Funk and Göring.

However, I should like to quote to the witness a few other points from that record so that several other points can also be used as evidence:

Witness, State Secretary Hans Posse says, for instance—and I should like to ask whether this is still your opinion today—that is Document 3894-PS, Page 2 of the German translation, at the bottom of the page—he was asked, “How often did you report to Funk in connection with your duties as Deputy to the Plenipotentiary?”

The witness answered then, “The Plenipotentiary for Economy never really went into action.”

FUNK: I must repeat what I said again and again, and what has been confirmed by everybody who has been heard on that question. That was a post which was merely on paper.

DR. SAUTER: Then the witness was asked to what final end you, Dr. Funk, had worked.

It says, “Dr. Posse, is it correct that the office of Plenipotentiary for Economy was established to the final end of uniting all economic functions with a view to the preparation for war?”

Then the witness answered, “The purpose was what I have just said—to co-ordinate the various conflicting economic interests. But there was no talk about the preparation for war.”

And on the same page, on Page 4, at the bottom, the witness says, I quote:

“It is correct that the aim was to co-ordinate all economic questions, but the purpose was not to prepare for war. Of course, if war preparation should become necessary, it was the task of the Plenipotentiary for Economy to concern himself with these questions and to act as a co-ordinator.”

FUNK: Herr Posse was an old, sick man, whom I had put in this post. He was formerly State Secretary under Schacht, and when I took over the ministry, I received a new State Secretary through Göring who, unfortunately, later became insane. And then State Secretary Dr. Landfried came to me, and Posse, who formally was still in the Ministry of Economics as State Secretary, was without a job. Therefore I made him an executive officer attached to the Plenipotentiary for Economy.

Here, of course, he had constant difficulties from the very beginning. The High Command of the Armed Forces or the War Economy Staff wanted to reduce the authority of the Plenipotentiary, as can be seen from the letter which was presented yesterday. And the civilian economy department did not want to follow his directives because they already had been subordinated to and had to follow the directives of the Delegate for the Four Year Plan. Therefore, as a matter of fact, that unhappy Plenipotentiary for Economy held a post which to all intents and purposes existed only on paper.

THE PRESIDENT: Would this not be a convenient time to break off now?

[The Tribunal recessed until 1400 hours.]

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