Afternoon Session
THE PRESIDENT: General, the Tribunal will not admit this document at the present time, but it would wish that you should present the original document and at the same time the answers to the interrogatories which the Tribunal has ordered; and the Tribunal will call upon the Secretary General for a report upon the whole matter.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Mr. President, during the recess I had a chance to talk this over with Dr. Sauter. He will give me the interrogatory and measures will be taken to get the necessary replies from the witness in the shortest possible time. Besides this the request of the Tribunal to get the original of the document will be complied with as soon as possible.
May I continue now with my interrogation?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, please.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I stopped at the testimony of Gert Bruno Knittel. Here is what he relates about his service in the German Army:
“Not less than twice a week we were sent to comb the forests, to round up guerrillas and to look for discontent against the German regime, so that these people could be arrested and shot immediately. Our 3d Company, Field Depot Battalion 375, caught and shot five persons in the woods. Most possibly these persons were not even partisans or guerrillas, but merely citizens who went into the woods for personal matters. But we had orders to shoot all who crossed our path in the woods. I did this together with the other soldiers of my company.
“One day in June 1943, in a roundup in the village of Lishaysk, we surrounded the whole place with three to four companies so that no one could leave or enter the village. Outside each house that had to be searched...”
THE PRESIDENT: You are cross-examining the Defendant Von Schirach who was in Vienna. What has this document got to do with him?
GEN. ALEXANDROV: This is the testimony of one of the members of the Hitler Jugend regarding his participation in atrocities during his service in the German Army in the occupied territory. This document is translated into German. I need not read it. However, I would like the witness Von Schirach to familiarize himself with this document. Did you read this document? I am asking you this now, Witness, have you read that document?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I have read the document. This man Knittel who is testifying here was not a member of the Hitler Youth, but belonged either to the Labor Service or to a unit of the Army. Earlier in his life, just like all the other young Germans, he had been a member of the Hitler Youth. He states that; but in this case he was acting as a member of some unit of the Armed Forces, not as a member of the Hitler Youth. The entire testimony seems to be of little credibility. For example, he mentions a Hitler Youth Party...
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read all the testimony that is given there?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: Have you read all this testimony?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: In connection with this, do you admit that participation of German youth in similar atrocities was the effect of the special education and preparation of the Hitler Youth?
VON SCHIRACH: No, I do not admit that.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have two more questions, and that will be all. Up to what time did you hold the post of Reichsstatthalter of Vienna and Reichsleiter of Youth Education?
VON SCHIRACH: I was head of Youth Education from 1931 and Reich Governor of the city of Vienna since 1940.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I am interested in knowing to what date, to what moment?
VON SCHIRACH: I held both of these offices until the collapse.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: You were telling here in detail about your break with Hitler in 1943. You stated that from that time on you were politically dead. However, you continued to hold your posts to the very end. Therefore your break with Hitler was only theoretical, and in effect entailed no consequences for you. Is that correct?
VON SCHIRACH: That is wrong. I described the consequences which it had for me in my statement either on Thursday or Friday, and I also mentioned at that time that up to the very last moment I kept my oath which I had given to Hitler as Youth Leader, as an official, and as an officer.
GEN. ALEXANDROV: I have no more questions, Mr. President.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, in order to expedite the proceedings, I should like to put two brief questions to Defendant Von Schirach.
The first question, Witness: in the course of the cross-examination you were asked whether you gave the order to hold Vienna until the very last moment and to defend the city to the last man. As far as I remember, you answered that question in the negative. Now, I am interested in knowing in this connection what orders you gave to your subordinates during the last days in Vienna—I mean to the Deputy Gauleiter Scharizer and the then Mayor Blaschke?
VON SCHIRACH: The order for the defense of Vienna originated with Hitler. The defense of Vienna was a matter for the military authorities, that is, the commandant of the city of Vienna, the military commander who was in charge of the 6th SS Panzer Division....
DR. SAUTER: What was his name?
VON SCHIRACH: Sepp Dietrich, and the officer commanding the Army Group South, Generaloberst Rendulic.
DR. SAUTER: Did they give the orders?
VON SCHIRACH: In carrying out the order which Hitler had given them regarding the defense of Vienna, they defended Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: What orders did you, Witness, give your subordinates in this connection?
VON SCHIRACH: For the defense of Vienna I gave only such orders as related to the Volkssturm, or those dealing with the food supply of the city and similar matters with which I was charged. I personally had nothing to do with the actual defense of the city. For even the work of destruction which was necessary in the course of the military defense of the city is to be traced back to orders which originated from the Führer’s headquarters and had been transmitted to the officer commanding the Army group, and to the city commandant.
DR. SAUTER: My second question, Witness: In your cross-examination you were questioned about Document 3763-PS. This is a document which deals with the songs of youth, into which the Prosecution seems to read a different attitude from the one you set forth. Do you wish to supplement your testimony on this point?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, I must supplement it briefly.
DR. SAUTER: Please do.
VON SCHIRACH: The Prosecution accuses me concerning a certain song, a song which begins, “We are the black swarms of Geyer, hey, ho”; the chorus of which goes, “Spear them, spike them, put the red cock on the cloister roof,” and one verse runs, “We will cry to Him on high that we want to kill the priest.”
This is a Christian song.
DR. SAUTER: How is that?
VON SCHIRACH: This can be seen in the fourth and fifth verses. It is the song of the Protestant peasants under the leadership of Florian Geyer.
The fourth verse goes: “No castle, abbey, and monastery matters. Nothing but the Holy Scripture is of value to us.” The next verse goes: “We want the same law from prince down to peasant.”
Protestantism, too, was once a revolution. The rebel peasants sang this song; and it may serve as an example, this song of the 16th century, like some of the songs of the French revolution. This song may be used as an example to show how, in the beginning, revolutions are radical rather than tolerant.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, with this point I should like to conclude my direct examination of the Defendant Von Schirach. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Who were your principal assistants in your office at Vienna?
VON SCHIRACH: First of all, the chief of my Central Office, Hoepken; secondly, the Regierungspräsident Dr. Dellbrügge; thirdly, the Mayor, Blaschke; and fourthly, the Deputy Gauleiter, Scharizer. They were my chief collaborators.
THE PRESIDENT: That makes four, does it?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And did they occupy the whole of their time working for you in your office?
VON SCHIRACH: Not all of them. The Deputy Gauleiter had already been functioning under my predecessor, Bürckel. Mayor Blaschke, as far as I recall, first became mayor in 1943. His predecessor as mayor was a Herr Jung. The District President, Dr. Dellbrügge, assumed his office in 1940, after my arrival in Vienna. He was sent to me from the Reich.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, from the time that you took over the office in Vienna these four men were working for you, is that right?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. I should like to mention also that the head of the Central Office, Hoepken, was first of all active under me as adjutant and assumed his position as chief only when the former chief of this office, Obergebietsführer Müller, lost his life in an air raid.
THE PRESIDENT: Which of the four was it who initialed those weekly reports which were received in your office?
VON SCHIRACH: That was the District President, Dr. Dellbrügge.
THE PRESIDENT: Dellbrügge?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And at the time that he received them he was working in your office as one of your principal assistants?
VON SCHIRACH: He was my deputy in the State Administration.
THE PRESIDENT: That was your office?
VON SCHIRACH: That was one of my offices.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, one department in your office?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes. May I add, by way of explanation, that there were various branches: The State Administration, the Municipal Administration, the Party Management and the Reich Defense Commissariat. The Reich Defense Commissariat and the State Administration were combined as far as their representation was concerned. Everything was co-ordinated in the Central Office.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, in which department was this principal assistant who initialed these documents? Which department was he head of?
VON SCHIRACH: He held a key position in the office of the Reichsstatthalter as Chief of the State Administration.
THE PRESIDENT: Civil administration?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes, Civil State Administration.
THE PRESIDENT: Was he the Deputy Reich Defense Commissioner?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And you were the Reich Defense Commissioner for the Military District Number XVII, were you not?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And he was your deputy in that military district?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: He received and initialed those reports in that office, did he not?
VON SCHIRACH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant can return to the dock.
[The Defendant Von Schirach left the stand.]
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, with your permission I should like to call to the witness box the witness Lauterbacher.
[The witness Lauterbacher took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?
HARTMANN LAUTERBACHER (Witness): Hartmann Lauterbacher.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that your full name?
LAUTERBACHER: Lauterbacher.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.
[The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you sit down.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, I have already discussed this matter with you in the prison; is that right?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Please pause after each question before you answer so that the interpreters may keep up.
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: When were you born?
LAUTERBACHER: On 24 May 1909.
DR. SAUTER: 1909?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, 1909.
DR. SAUTER: Are you married?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: You have three children?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: What is your profession?
LAUTERBACHER: Druggist.
DR. SAUTER: Retail druggist?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: You are in an American prison?
LAUTERBACHER: In an English prison.
DR. SAUTER: Since when?
LAUTERBACHER: Since 29 May 1945.
DR. SAUTER: Have you been interrogated by the Prosecution on this matter?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SAUTER: When did you become an official, that is to say, a paid employee of the Hitler Youth?
LAUTERBACHER: I became a paid employee of the Hitler Youth when appointed District Leader (Gebietsführer) of the Westphalia-Lower Rhine area.
DR. SAUTER: And when was that?
LAUTERBACHER: In April 1932:
DR. SAUTER: April 1932. That was at the age of 23?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, at the age of 23.
DR. SAUTER: Before then had you been a member of the HJ?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. I was...
DR. SAUTER: Slowly, please, and always wait until the question has been completed before you answer.
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: I was asking you if you were already a member of the Hitler Youth when you took up your paid appointment in the year 1932.
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. When I was 13 years old, in the year 1922, I joined what was then known as the National Socialist Youth Organization. Then, when I was 18 years old, in the year 1927, I accepted the duties of an Unterführer in my home province of the Tyrol...
DR. SAUTER: And officially you were...
LAUTERBACHER: ...then I worked in an honorary capacity in Brunswick from 1929 until 1932; and later on I had a paid appointment.
DR. SAUTER: That is to say from 1932?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: What was your status in the year 1932? What position did you get then?
LAUTERBACHER: In the year 1932 I was entrusted with the leadership of the area then known as Westphalia-Lower Rhine.
DR. SAUTER: When were you assigned to the Defendant Von Schirach?
LAUTERBACHER: On 22 May 1934.
DR. SAUTER: What was your position under him?
LAUTERBACHER: Stabsführer.
DR. SAUTER: How long did you remain a Stabsführer?
LAUTERBACHER: Until August 1940.
DR. SAUTER: I suppose until the time he resigned his office as Reich Youth Leader?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: When you took up your paid appointment with the HJ, had you already served with the Army?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SAUTER: Then you had not been an officer?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SAUTER: You told us, I believe, that since 1934 you had been Stabsführer of the Reich Youth Leadership. What tasks did the Stabsführer of the Reich Youth Leadership have? Please tell us briefly, so we may have an idea of what your jurisdiction was.
LAUTERBACHER: As the title of Stabsführer indicates, I was in the first place the chief of the staff of the Reich Youth Leadership. As such, I had the task of dealing with the general directives of the Reich Youth Leader, particularly those concerning the Hitler Youth offices and regions insofar as the Youth Leader did not do that himself. I had to co-ordinate the various departments of the Reich Youth Leadership and in particular to deal with matters of an organizational and personal nature.
Furthermore, in the years 1935 to 1939 I made a number of journeys abroad at Von Schirach’s request.
DR. SAUTER: Who was the deputy of the Reich Youth Leader when he could not act personally?
LAUTERBACHER: I was his deputy on occasions when he was prevented from acting personally.
DR. SAUTER: Then apparently you were the first man in the Reich Youth Leadership after Schirach?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Were your relations with Von Schirach purely official, or were you friends as well?
LAUTERBACHER: Our association was not limited only to official matters; we were also personal friends, and so our personal relationship was not interrupted by Schirach’s appointment in Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: Do you believe, Herr Lauterbacher—regarding this friendly relationship that you had with Von Schirach—that he concealed certain things from you; or are you of the conviction that so far as official matters were concerned he had no secrets from you?
LAUTERBACHER: I always have been, and still am today, convinced of the fact that Von Schirach made all his intentions and educational measures known to me.
DR. SAUTER: So he kept nothing from you?
LAUTERBACHER: No, he kept nothing from me. If Schirach had discussions with Adolf Hitler during the earlier years he always informed me immediately afterwards.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, in the year 1939 the second World War broke out. Did the Defendant Von Schirach, in the last few years prior to the outbreak of the World War, have any discussions with you in which he expressed the view that youth should be educated for war—in other words—that in educating youth the necessities and requirements of future war must be taken into account? What transpired on this point between you and Von Schirach before the war?
LAUTERBACHER: The possibility of war was never discussed. Occasionally I attended Party rallies in the company of Von Schirach; and on these occasions, when Adolf Hitler delivered a speech, I only—on the occasion of these rallies I had the definite and unalterable impression that Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist Reich were determined to maintain peace and to allow matters to follow a peaceful course. That is why it never occurred to me that youth should be trained specifically for war.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, in your capacity as Stabsführer of the Reich Youth Leadership, did you have any knowledge about the mail as a whole which either came to Schirach or was dispatched by him?
LAUTERBACHER: I always saw all the official mail.
DR. SAUTER: In the mail which reached Schirach in his office, did you see anything about directives for the Reich Youth Leadership received from Hitler, from the Party leadership, from the OKW, or from any other agency, either State or Party, regarding the preparations for war?
LAUTERBACHER: No, neither open nor camouflaged.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, we have already heard about the main functions of youth education in the course of the last few days. I do not believe, Mr. President, that I need go into these subjects in detail. The witness is the person best qualified to give us information, but I think I may take the subject of youth education as clarified.
THE PRESIDENT: I think so. I think the facts about it have been sufficiently stated.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you. Then I can pass on to another subject immediately.
[Turning to the witness.] You said that you had not been a soldier. Did not Schirach attach importance to the inclusion among his collaborators of a certain number of officers, or at least of men who had served their term of military service and who might be enrolled as instructors? Please be brief.
LAUTERBACHER: No, at first, that is, during the early years of the period of development, Von Schirach rejected officers as youth leaders on ideological and educational grounds. The aim and mission of the Hitler Youth were those of a socialist community and of a socialist state; and the old type of officer of the period, the representative of a reactionary epoch, would have been absolutely incompatible.
DR. SAUTER: Absolutely incompatible? Do you mean with the...
LAUTERBACHER: With the principles of education which Schirach had laid down for the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, have you any idea whether Schirach always rejected the proposal, or to put it the other way round, do you know whether he agreed when any military authorities tried to influence the character of the Youth Leadership? Perhaps you could also answer this point briefly.
LAUTERBACHER: Even in 1933 attempts were made to introduce officers into the Hitler Youth as leaders. As far as my information goes, two officers had been given appointments in the Hitler Youth before my period of office as Stabsführer, under more or less direct orders from Hitler. They were entirely unable to cope with youth as such; and I think I am justified in saying that their appearance was a complete failure.
DR. SAUTER: What happened to them?
LAUTERBACHER: Schirach went to Adolf Hitler and succeeded in having these gentlemen dismissed; also through him, a directive was drawn up by Hitler which said that officers were not to hold positions in the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: Were no further attempts of the kind made to force officers from somewhere or other upon him?
LAUTERBACHER: Oh, yes. In 1936 and 1937, and then again in 1938, attempts were made to influence the education of the Hitler Youth through so-called liaison officers. But these attempts also failed; and up to the very end there were no officers working with the Hitler Youth who were responsible to any other authority except Schirach, apart from former Hitler Youth leaders who had served in the Army and received officers’ commissions.
DR. SAUTER: If I understand you correctly, Witness, you wish to say—and please confirm whether I have understood you correctly—that Schirach rejected these attempts. Is that correct?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, why did the Hitler Youth wear uniform—the girls as well?
LAUTERBACHER: Uniform is perhaps not quite the correct term for the clothing worn by the members of the Hitler Youth. It was more in the nature of a national costume which was worn by members of youth organizations before the existence of the Hitler Youth, not only in Germany but in other countries as well. Moreover, Schirach was anxious that all boys and girls should, as he expressed himself, wear the dress of the socialist community.
DR. SAUTER: Of the socialist community. Does that mean a community of all—of all the boys and girls of every class of German society without any distinction?
LAUTERBACHER: Without any distinction as to descent or creed or anything else.
DR. SAUTER: Or rich or poor?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Were the Hitler Youth in possession of weapons and were they trained in the use of military weapons? You must know that.
LAUTERBACHER: No, they were not trained in the use of military weapons during the period in which Schirach and I held office.
DR. SAUTER: Did the Hitler Youth have, in particular, tanks, armored cars, and so forth, since reference was made to the training of the young men in the so-called “motorized Hitler Youth” in connection with the question of the special unit (Sonderformation)—tanks, armored cars?
LAUTERBACHER: No, to my knowledge the Hitler Youth never received any training in armored cars, tanks, or anything of the kind, even after Schirach’s term of office. At any rate...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the facts stated by the defendant as to the weapons of the Hitler Youth and their formations were not cross-examined. You need not go into that. Mr. Dodd did not suggest that they had tanks.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you, Mr. President. Then I can perhaps be more brief.
I now come, Herr Lauterbacher, to the Defendant Von Schirach’s attitude toward the Jewish question. Was the Hitler Youth involved in any way in the Jewish pogroms of November 1938?
LAUTERBACHER: I think I can answer your question with a definite “no.”
DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, you told me something about a speech made by the Defendant Von Schirach a few days after 9 November 1938, on the subject of these Jewish pogroms. Tell me when and to whom he delivered this speech and what the contents of the speech were.
LAUTERBACHER: Von Schirach was in Munich on 10 November 1938 and I was in Berlin. Schirach instructed me by telephone to tell the district leaders of the Hitler Youth that their organizations were in no circumstances to take part in these anti-Jewish demonstrations, and to call a meeting of all these leaders to hear a specific declaration on this point. This meeting took place about 15 November 1938.
DR. SAUTER: Where?
LAUTERBACHER: In Berlin. Schirach asked these district leaders to report to him and expressed his satisfaction at having in the meantime received reports to the effect that the Hitler Youth had not been involved in these excesses. He then described the said excesses in his speech. I still remember this speech extraordinarily well, for it was particularly impressive. He described these pogroms as a disgrace to our culture and as amounting to self-defamation. He said that such things might be expected of an uncivilized people but not of the German people. He went on to say that we had antagonized not only the world in general but also all decent people in Germany itself by these demonstrations. He was afraid that serious political difficulties would arise at home, as well as difficulties within the Party itself. As we know, the Party was not at all unanimous in its judgment of these happenings. A very large section of the Party members and of the Party leadership condemned these excesses.
DR. SAUTER: Please tell us more of what Schirach said at that time. I should be more interested in that.
LAUTERBACHER: Von Schirach then gave the Youth Leadership special instructions to keep out of demonstrations of this or a similar kind in the future, no matter what the circumstances might be, and condemned every use of violence on educational grounds alone. He concluded the proceedings by prohibiting the reading of the newspaper Der Stürmer by the Hitler Youth at club evenings or on any other occasions.
DR. SAUTER: On this occasion, Herr Lauterbacher, did he say anything about the needless destruction of so many cultural treasures, art treasures, property belonging to the people, et cetera, and did he not give certain instances of this?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. As an especially glaring instance, he quoted the case of the attempt, which was at least partially carried through, to loot the Jewish firm of Bernheimer, art dealers in Munich.
DR. SAUTER: Munich?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. He quoted this example to the Youth Leadership to illustrate the dangerous and irreparable inroads made on the reservoir of our culture and our cultural treasures by these demonstrations.
DR. SAUTER: Is it true that immediately after this Berlin speech about which you have just told us, the Defendant Von Schirach caused definite directives to be issued by telephone from Berlin, through your agency, to the individual Hitler Youth offices?
LAUTERBACHER: This took place as early as 10 November, the day after the Munich meeting. It had nothing to do with the district leaders’ meeting, which only took place about 15 November.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, I assume that, as time went on, you were present at a good many speeches made by the Defendant Von Schirach to his subleaders, or to the Hitler Youth, and that you listened to many of these speeches yourself. Did the Defendant Von Schirach engage in Jew-baiting on these or other occasions? Did he suggest that violence be used against the Jews? What was his attitude?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes; I must have listened to all the important speeches delivered by Von Schirach before the Leadership Corps of the Hitler Youth, and on the occasion of these speeches I never heard him urge the use of violence, which would in any case have been completely foreign to his nature. At any rate, I cannot recall that Von Schirach ever called upon the Youth Leadership, either directly or indirectly, to take part in acts of violence of any kind against anyone.
DR. SAUTER: What did Schirach usually talk about in delivering one of his many speeches addressed to youth? Just the main topic, briefly.
LAUTERBACHER: One must certainly differentiate between the long speeches which he delivered at public demonstrations and the speeches which he made before the leaders of the Hitler Youth.
In the speeches he addressed to the leaders he always discussed the main political and ideological tasks and the tasks of social policy, cultural policy, and professional training which he had assigned to the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: Now, we shall turn to a different topic, Herr Lauterbacher. Did Schirach cause you to leave the Church?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SAUTER: Did you leave the Church?
LAUTERBACHER: I do not believe that Herr Von Schirach even knew to what religious denomination I belonged or whether I left the Church or not. I left the Church in 1937 or 1938, without being influenced or forced to do so by anyone.
DR. SAUTER: Did Von Schirach urge his other collaborators to leave the Church, as far as you know?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SAUTER: Did Schirach abuse Christianity or incite others to attack it on the occasion of the numerous speeches made by him, to which you have just told us that you listened?
LAUTERBACHER: On those occasions Schirach always told the youth to respect religious convictions, and characterized atheism as an evil, not only once but many times. In his speeches, Von Schirach vigorously criticized, for instance, the athletic clubs existing both before and after 1933 in connection with the various churches and demanded the unity of youth; but on these occasions he did not attack Christianity or the religious convictions of others either in public or in private.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Lauterbacher, during the time the Defendant Von Schirach was Reich Youth Leader, negotiations were pending with the Roman Catholic Church with a view to concluding a concordat, so that relations between the State and the Church would be regulated by an agreement. Do you know whether Von Schirach took part in these concordat negotiations and whether he took much trouble to effect an understanding with the Church on a basis satisfactory to both sides?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. In 1933 and 1934 Schirach had numerous discussions with representatives of the Church, Reich Bishop Müller of the Protestant Church and the representative of the Fulda Conference of Bishops, Bishop Berning of Osnabrück. I remember that Schirach strove to draw a dividing line between their respective powers and jurisdiction on some such basis as: “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s and unto God the things which are God’s.”
DR. SAUTER: I have another question, Witness: Do you know whether Von Schirach actually tried to bring about an understanding between the Hitler Youth, of which he was the leader, and the youth of other countries, and can you tell us, for instance, what he did and what steps he took to that end?
LAUTERBACHER: The establishment of a cordial understanding between German youth and world youth generally was undoubtedly one of those tasks the importance of which Schirach constantly emphasized to his youth leaders, and I always had the impression that this task was, as I might almost say, his particular passion. I myself, on his orders—and perhaps I am a cardinal witness on precisely this point—visited the various European countries, from 1935 onwards, at least once a year and sometimes even two or three times a year, so that I could get in touch with existing youth organizations and with organizations of combatants of the first World War, in order to establish contact with them.
DR. SAUTER: Which countries?
LAUTERBACHER: It can truthfully be said that the Hitler Youth sought contacts with all the countries of Europe; and I myself, at the direct order of Von Schirach, visited England several times. There I met the leader of the British Boy Scouts and his colleague, but also...
THE PRESIDENT: I do not think those facts are in dispute. It is merely the inference that is to be drawn from the facts that the Prosecution will rely upon. Therefore it is not necessary for you to go into the facts again, as to the connection of the Hitler Youth with the foreign youth.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, Mr. President.
Witness, you have just heard that these facts are not in dispute. We can therefore turn to another topic. You were the Stabsführer of the Hitler Youth in the Reich Youth Leadership. Do you know whether the Leadership of the Hitler Youth maintained spies or agents abroad, or whether it trained people for the so-called Fifth Column—and I take it you know what that is—in other countries, or whether it brought young people over to be trained as parachutists in Germany and then sent them back to their own countries. During your whole period of office as Stabsführer, did you ever learn of anything like that?
LAUTERBACHER: The Hitler Youth did not have spies, agents, or parachutists to operate in any country in Europe. I would have been bound to learn of such a fact or such an arrangement in any circumstances.
DR. SAUTER: Even if Schirach had made such an arrangement behind your back, do you believe that you would have been bound to learn of it in any case through the channels of reports from district leaders and similar channels?
LAUTERBACHER: I would inevitably have learned of this or have observed it in these districts on some of my many official trips.
DR. SAUTER: Then, Witness, I should like to turn to another topic. The other day you told me about a certain discussion. After the Polish campaign—that would be, presumably, at the end of September or beginning of October 1939—and before the actual campaign in France you had a meeting with the Defendant Von Schirach in your residence in Berlin-Dahlem, on which occasion the Defendant Von Schirach voiced his attitude to the war. Will you describe this conversation briefly to the Court?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. Von Schirach came to see me at the end of September or beginning of October 1939. He visited me in the house which I occupied at the time in Berlin. The conversation very quickly turned to war, and Schirach said that, in his opinion, this war should have been prevented. He held the Foreign Minister of that time responsible for having given Hitler inadequate or false information. He regretted the fact that Hitler and the leading men of the State and the Party knew nothing about Europe and the world generally and had steered Germany into this war without having any idea of the consequences.
At that time he was of the opinion that if the war could not be brought to an end in the shortest possible time, we should lose it. In this connection he referred to the enormous war potential of the United States and England. He said—and I remember the expression very well—that this war was an unholy one and that if the German people were not to be plunged into disaster as a result of it, the Führer must be informed of the danger which would arise for Germany if America were to intervene, either through deliveries of goods or through actual entry into the war.
We considered at the time who could inform Hitler, who, in fact, could even obtain access to him. Schirach suggested trying in some way to introduce Colin Ross into Adolf Hitler’s presence. Colin Ross was to call Hitler’s attention to the threatening catastrophe and to inform Hitler of the facts. This was to be done outside the competency of the Foreign Minister and without the Foreign Minister being present. At that time Colin Ross was not yet in Germany. I remember that when he returned he was introduced into Hitler’s presence by way of Schirach.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, will you tell us more about the discussion which you mentioned as having taken place in 1939. I should like you to answer this question: How did he come to choose Dr. Colin Ross in particular? How did you happen to think of him?
LAUTERBACHER: I have already mentioned that the leaders of the National Socialist State and of the Party were almost totally lacking in knowledge of the world and foreign countries generally, and had consequently hit upon this man, who had seen so much of the world. Colin Ross had occasionally attended meetings of the Hitler Youth Leaders before 1939 and had addressed them...
DR. SAUTER: What about?
LAUTERBACHER: ...and thus he was known to Schirach and the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: What were the topics he discussed before the Hitler Youth?
LAUTERBACHER: Colin Ross spoke of his experiences in every continent.
DR. SAUTER: How did Colin Ross become known to the Hitler Youth? On this occasion did you also speak of whether an attempt should be made to find a solution of the Jewish problem, so that it would be easier to reach an understanding with other countries, and if so, on what basis?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. In the course of this conversation Schirach referred to the excesses of 9 November 1938 and to the speech he made immediately afterwards, and said that in the circumstances it would naturally be extremely difficult to start discussions with America; that we might have to try beforehand—if circumstances permitted—and he wished to suggest this to Hitler during an interview...
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal does not think it is really sufficiently important to go into Schirach’s private discussions with this witness. If he can say anything as to what Schirach did, it may be different, but now the witness is simply reciting the discussions which he had with Schirach, nothing more than private discussion.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, what steps did Schirach actually take towards peace, or to shorten the war, as a result of these discussions with you? Did he take any steps; and what were these steps?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, as he told me at a later discussion, Schirach made use of every opportunity at the beginning of the war to convince Hitler of the need for discussions with America, and with this purpose in view, he actually brought Colin Ross to Hitler, as he told me later. Colin Ross was with Hitler for several hours. When Colin Ross visited me at Hanover he told me about this discussion and on this occasion he said that Hitler was very thoughtful. He did say also, however, that a second discussion which had been planned with Hitler had not materialized, for, according to his version, the Foreign Office had protested against this kind of information.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
[A recess was taken.]
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the Tribunal thinks that this witness is dealing in great detail with matters which are of very little importance and the Tribunal wishes you to bring his attention to something which is of real importance.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have in any case only one more question.
One last question, Witness. You have not been with Schirach since 1940. I believe you became a Gauleiter.
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Schirach went to Vienna. But in 1943 you again had a long talk with him, mainly about why Schirach did not resign from his post. My reason for putting this question to you is that one member of the Prosecution has already discussed the question today. Will you tell us briefly what reasons Schirach gave at the time for retaining his office or why he did not resign, and what his views on the war were in 1943—at that time, I mean?
LAUTERBACHER: In March 1943, when I made an unofficial visit to Vienna, a very long conversation took place between Von Schirach and myself. At that time, Von Schirach talked very pessimistically about the prospects of the war and told me that we should soon be fighting outside Vienna, in the Alps and along the Rhine. On that occasion he said that he had not been able to see Adolf Hitler for a very long time; that he had had no further opportunity of reporting to him, as had formerly been the case; and that the Chief of the Party Chancellery, Bormann, had consistently prevented him from seeing the Führer and talking to him alone; and that he therefore no longer had any opportunity whatsoever of discussing Viennese questions or general questions with Hitler. In this connection he also stated that Bormann came to him with objections and complaints every day, cancelling orders and directives he had issued in his capacity of Gauleiter in Vienna, and that in view of all this, it was no longer possible for him to remain in office and to shoulder the responsibility.
At a later stage of that conversation, in the course of which we considered all kinds of possibilities, he said that, as he had sworn an oath of allegiance to Hitler, he felt bound to remain in office whatever happened and that, above all, he could not take the responsibility in the present military situation for abandoning the population over which he had been appointed Gauleiter.
He saw the catastrophe coming but said that even his resignation or any action that he might take would not have any influence on the leaders of the State or on Hitler himself and that he would, therefore, remain true to his oath, as a soldier would, and retain his appointment.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, that concludes my examination of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other defense counsel want to ask him any questions?
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, were you Gauleiter in Hanover from 1940?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, from December 1940.
DR. SERVATIUS: You were also Plenipotentiary for Labor in that capacity?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
DR. SERVATIUS: Were there many foreign laborers in your Gau?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, there were a great many foreign laborers in my district. This was mainly due to the Hermann Göring Works, which had been established near Brunswick.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you have to look after them?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, my assignments as Plenipotentiary for Labor were confined to looking after foreign civilian workers.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you receive instructions from Sauckel on that point?
LAUTERBACHER: I, like all other Gauleiter of the NSDAP, constantly received instructions from Sauckel with regard to the recruitment of labor; that is to say, regarding the welfare of these civilian workers.
DR. SERVATIUS: What type of instructions were they?
LAUTERBACHER: The instructions which I received as Gauleiter consisted almost exclusively of repeated demands to do everything to satisfy the foreign workers in matters of accommodation, food, clothing, and cultural welfare.
DR. SERVATIUS: Was that carried out in practice?
LAUTERBACHER: It was naturally carried out within the limits of existing possibilities.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you inspect camps or factories where these workers were employed?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, I myself inspected such camps and especially such factories on my official trips. Apart from that I had, as my Gau supervisor of the German Labor Front, a man who assisted me in this task on such occasions.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you or your Gau supervisor discover the existence of shocking conditions?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes. After the air raids from which Hanover and Brunswick suffered particularly badly from 1943 onwards, I found conditions in foreign civilian labor camps—just as I did in the living quarters of German people—to be what I would call, perhaps not shocking, but certainly very serious; and after that I tried as far as possible to have these destroyed dwellings repaired, for instance, or to have new ones built.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you see any abuses for which these industrial enterprises of the supervisory agencies were directly responsible?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, I do remember two such cases.
Several firms in Hanover had formed a kind of industrial association—a kind of union—and had established a camp for their foreign civilian workers. The trustees of these firms were responsible for this camp. One day the Gau supervisor of the German Labor Front reported to me that living conditions did not comply with instructions received and asked my permission to intervene, that is to say, to be allowed to assume responsibility through the German Labor Front for that collective camp. I gave him this assignment; and sometime afterwards he reported that these difficulties had been overcome.
The Hermann Göring Works constitute another example of this kind. Since I am speaking under oath here, I must mention the fact that that firm disregarded Sauckel’s instructions in many respects. On one occasion they recruited workers independently, outside the jurisdiction of the labor administration through their branches in the Ukraine and other countries. These laborers came to Watenstedt, in the area supervised by the Executive Board of the Party, outside the quota fixed by the Plenipotentiary for Labor, and consequently outside of his jurisdiction.
I myself had very considerable difficulty in obtaining entry to the works and the camp. For although Gauleiter and Plenipotentiary, I was not by any means in a position simply to...
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. What has this got to do with the Defendant Sauckel?
DR. SERVATIUS: I asked him about any abuses which he had found, for as plenipotentiary for the recruitment of foreign workers it was his duty to ascertain where such bad conditions existed and to report them so that they would finally be brought to Sauckel’s notice. He has digressed rather widely and has just been describing the Hermann Göring Works.
THE PRESIDENT: You should stop him, Dr. Servatius. You know the question you were asking.
DR. SERVATIUS: Witness, did you discover the existence of abuses in the camp?
LAUTERBACHER: I was unable to enter the camp, because entry was forbidden.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did Sauckel himself address the workers in your Gau?
LAUTERBACHER: No, not during my period of office. But he frequently sent representatives.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have now got some questions to put on behalf of the political leaders whom I represent.
Did you receive special instructions from the Führer on your appointment as Gauleiter?
LAUTERBACHER: No. When I was appointed Gauleiter I was merely introduced by Herr Hess as Gauleiter, during an assembly of Gauleiter. But I received no special instructions on the occasion of that meeting, and during my...
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, the answer was “no” and you did not need to add to it at all.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did you talk to the Führer later on? Did you receive special or secret instructions?
LAUTERBACHER: I only saw the Führer now and again at Gauleiter meetings and I never had any official discussions with him.
DR. SERVATIUS: Do you know anything about the activities of block leaders? In particular, I want to ask you: Were they used as spies?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SERVATIUS: But there seems to be a widespread belief that in fact block leaders did act as spies and informers and that has been brought up by the Prosecution. Perhaps the SD used block leaders for that purpose?
LAUTERBACHER: The SD had its own agents who were not known to the Party. At any rate, the block leaders had no instructions to work for the SD.
DR. SERVATIUS: Was no card index kept of Party opponents?
LAUTERBACHER: Not in the Party organizations. As far as I know this card index was kept by the Secret Police, as was made known in connection with the plot of 20 July 1944.
DR. SERVATIUS: Did the Party use agents for spying who may not have been block leaders but who worked for you in your capacity of Gauleiter?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.
MR. DODD: When did you join the SS, Witness?
LAUTERBACHER: I was made an SS Brigadier General on 2 August 1940, on the occasion of my appointment as Deputy Gauleiter.
MR. DODD: I did not hear your answer as to when you first joined the SS. Would you repeat it, please?
LAUTERBACHER: On 2 August 1940.
MR. DODD: You had not belonged before that date to the organization at all?
LAUTERBACHER: I was not a member of the SS before that date; but I served in the Waffen-SS as a soldier, from 26 May 1940 to September 1940.
MR. DODD: And then you later became an SS Obergruppenführer, did you not?
LAUTERBACHER: On 20 April 1944.
MR. DODD: And when did you join the staff of Himmler?
LAUTERBACHER: I was never a member of Himmler’s staff.
MR. DODD: Did you not join it in January of 1944, or what would you say that you did join in the Reichsführer SS Organization? Perhaps I have used the wrong term “staff.” There is some other name for it. Were you not affiliated in some way with Himmler?
LAUTERBACHER: No, I never had any SS assignments.
MR. DODD: Did you have any connection with the Reichsführer SS from January 1944 on?
LAUTERBACHER: In October 1944 the Reichsführer SS had gone in his special train to Bad Pyrmont, on the occasion of a meeting of West German Gauleiter and Higher SS and Police Leaders. I had orders to be present at that function; and in the course of the meeting I had a talk with him.
MR. DODD: That is not what I asked; but I will pass it. Did you become an SA Obergruppenführer in 1944, as well as SS Obergruppenführer?
LAUTERBACHER: I became an SA Obergruppenführer, I think, in 1944 or 1943.
MR. DODD: You were also a member of the Reichstag in 1936, were you not?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
MR. DODD: And a member of the Party, I guess you said, since 1927; is that right?
LAUTERBACHER: Since 1927.
MR. DODD: And a member of the Hitler Youth, or NSDAP, since 1923?
LAUTERBACHER: I joined the Hitler Youth in 1927. The Hitler Youth was not established until 1927.
MR. DODD: Well, whenever it was, the youth organization of the Party, that is what I mean. How many people did you have hanged publicly while you were the Gauleiter up in Hanover?
LAUTERBACHER: I did not understand the question.
MR. DODD: I said: How many people did you have hanged publicly while you were the Gauleiter up in Hanover?
LAUTERBACHER: I never hanged anyone publicly.
MR. DODD: Are you sure about that?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
MR. DODD: How many people did you send to concentration camps?
LAUTERBACHER: I might have handed over 5 or 10 persons to ordinary courts for violating war economy regulations. And in one case which I remember particularly well, there were two people who refused...
MR. DODD: Well, I do not care about the details. Just tell me how many you sent.
LAUTERBACHER: There were two. I do not know if they were sent to concentration camps, because I myself could not intern them. The internment was decided in Berlin.
MR. DODD: Do you know a man by the name of Huck, H-u-c-k, Heinrich Huck?
LAUTERBACHER: Huck—no. At the moment I cannot remember that name.
MR. DODD: The police commissar under your Gau, or in your Gau?
LAUTERBACHER: No, I do not know him.
MR. DODD: I want to ask: Did you not have a foreign worker from one of the eastern countries hanged, publicly hanged in the market square, and to remain there a whole day, at one time, while you were the Gauleiter up there?
LAUTERBACHER: No. Where is that supposed to have happened?
MR. DODD: It is supposed to have happened in Hildesheim.
LAUTERBACHER: No.
MR. DODD: In March of 1945, just before the war ended.
LAUTERBACHER: No. That is unknown to me. I never gave any such instructions.
MR. DODD: Did you order 400 or 500 prisoners poisoned or shot just before the city was taken by an Allied army?
LAUTERBACHER: No, that was put to me in London, and I think I cleared up the matter.
MR. DODD: You know what I am talking about, then?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, the penitentiary at Hameln.
MR. DODD: You know that your Kreisleiter says that you ordered them poisoned with either prussic acid or strychnine, or else they were to be shot?
You know about that, do you not?
LAUTERBACHER: I was told about that in London.
MR. DODD: And not only does your Kreisleiter say that but Richard Rother, who was an inspector at the prison at Hameln, confirms that the order was passed on, that either they were to be poisoned or shot; do you know about that as well?
LAUTERBACHER: I never gave any such order.
MR. DODD: I am asking you if you know that these people associated with you have sworn under oath that you did. You have seen these affidavits, have you not?
LAUTERBACHER: I was told of it in London; but I was also told that the inmates of that penitentiary were neither poisoned nor shot, but sent back.
MR. DODD: Yes, they were, but not because of you, but because your people refused to carry out your orders, is not that so?
LAUTERBACHER: I know nothing about that, because I was no longer in Hameln and no longer a Gauleiter.
MR. DODD: You have seen these affidavits, so I do not think there is any need to hand them to you, but I am going to offer them in evidence.
LAUTERBACHER: I received the statement of the commissioned Kreisleiter, Dr. Krämer, in London, and I replied to it.
MR. DODD: Very well. You know what he says, then?
I offer this D-861 as Exhibit USA-874, Mr. President. It is a document consisting of 7 affidavits from persons associated with this witness when he was the Gauleiter, and having to do with his conduct while he was Gauleiter there.
THE PRESIDENT: How do you suggest that that evidence is relevant?
MR. DODD: I offer them in relation to this man’s credibility, or rather lack of it. I do not think that they have anything to do directly with the case, other than they show the kind of individual he is, as we claim, and that the Tribunal should have this information before it when it considers the weight it will give to his testimony.
I have also just been reminded by my friend, Mr. Elwyn Jones, that of course it would have a bearing on the issue of the Leadership Corps of the Nazi Party, of which he is a member. That had not occurred to me, however. However, I do wish to claim it as a ground, also, for this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Where are the people who made these affidavits?
MR. DODD: Mr. President, I will have to inquire. I do not know. They are in custody, some of them at least, in the British zone here in Germany.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, you have just inquired where these people are who made these affidavits. Perhaps I can assist you in clarifying these questions. This Josef Krämer, whom the Prosecution have just quoted as the leading witness against the witness Lauterbacher, was sentenced to 7 years’ imprisonment by an English court some 8 or 10 days ago, and this for the very reason which the prosecutor has just mentioned. Herr Lauterbacher knows nothing about this matter, but quite accidentally I read a report of this trial in a German newspaper and I have the report here. In that article, dated 2 May of this year, it is stated that the former Kreisleiter of Hameln, Dr. Josef Krämer, was sentenced by the court of the 5th British Division to 7 years’ imprisonment. I quote from that article:
“Upon the approach of the Allied troops Krämer had given the order to liquidate the inmates of the penitentiary at Hameln. ‘No dangerous prisoner and no foreigner is to be allowed to fall into the hands of the enemy,’ was his order. ‘They must all be poisoned with prussic acid, or, if that is not possible, they will have to be shot.’ ”
That was the wording of the order given by ex-Kreisleiter Josef Krämer; and he is now being used as a witness against my witness here. The report goes on to say that officials at the penitentiary, who appeared as witnesses, stated that in spite of this order from Dr. Krämer they had refused to liquidate the prisoners. The rest is of no interest but I thought that perhaps it might be important for the Tribunal, when dealing with this question, to see from a document how this former Kreisleiter behaved in reality. If you are interested, Mr. President, the newspaper clipping, although it is in German, can be admitted to you at once.
MR. DODD: May I say, Mr. President, that perfectly substantiates the document; that is, Krämer says in here that is what he did, that he passed orders on but that he got them from this man. If anything, it supports us. It does not hurt us one whit insofar as the value of this document is concerned.
In looking them over, I think it is perhaps best if I only offer the first one and the last one. There are some others in this group that are not particularly helpful, I expect, for the Court. I shall withdraw all but the first and last and offer only the affidavit of Krämer and the affidavit of Huck.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, the Tribunal does not think that these documents ought to be admitted. In the first place, so far as the credit of the particular witness is concerned, they do not think that his answers on questions of credit ought to be challenged by other evidence. So far as the Leadership Corps is concerned, they think that these documents are only evidence of one individual crime.
MR. DODD: Very well, Mr. President.
Witness, I understood you to say that you never heard the Defendant Von Schirach say anything really derogatory of the Jewish people, and, on the contrary, you heard him speak out quite openly after the events of 9 November 1938. Did I understand you correctly?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, he criticized the atrocities in no uncertain terms at the meeting of Gauleiters. He had no doubt that...
MR. DODD: Do not go all through it again. I just wanted to be sure that I understood you correctly.
I suppose you read the Hitler Youth yearbook for the year 1938, as the Deputy to the Reich Leader.
LAUTERBACHER: At the moment I do not remember this book. If I could have a look at it?
MR. DODD: Of course I do not expect you to. I merely wanted to ascertain that you did read it. I suppose you always read your yearbook?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
MR. DODD: What, you did not read it?
LAUTERBACHER: I cannot remember, no.
MR. DODD: Well, would it not be customary for you to read the yearbook? Let us put it that way.
LAUTERBACHER: The yearbook was compiled by the Press Department and I had no influence on the details of the journalistic make-up of our newspapers, periodicals or yearbooks. I do not remember this book, at least as far as it concerns demands for anti-Semitic atrocities, or a policy of force.
MR. DODD: Well, I will show it to you in any event and call your attention to an article in the yearbook concerning the Jewish people. Do you know what I refer to? Where they were charged with having spilled the blood of millions of dead in history. That was put out, I assume, after the brave statements by the defendant in November of 1938, since it is for the whole year of 1938. You will find the article that I refer to on Page 192.
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
MR. DODD: Have you seen that article before?
LAUTERBACHER: No. That yearbook had no official character; it was a private enterprise on the part of the publishers.
MR. DODD: Now, just a minute. What do you mean, “it had no official character”? It was the yearbook of the Hitler Youth, was it not?
LAUTERBACHER: This yearbook was not officially edited by the Hitler Youth or by the Party. I never saw it until after it was published.
MR. DODD: It was published by the Central Publishing House of the NSDAP, was it not?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes, that is correct; I see that.
MR. DODD: It was called The Yearbook of the Hitler Youth, and you put it out for a good many years consecutively, did you not? I do not mean you personally, but I mean the Party and the Hitler Youth.
LAUTERBACHER: No. This yearbook was compiled and published every year by the gentleman mentioned there, or by others, as the case might be.
MR. DODD: I know that. I am simply trying to establish this, that this was the yearbook of the Hitler Youth and the only one that was put out, and it was put out each year. Now is that not so?
LAUTERBACHER: This book appeared every year, but I repeat again that it had no official character, nor do I believe that...
MR. DODD: Well, what would you say would give it an official character?
LAUTERBACHER: If it said here, “Published by the Reich Youth Leader’s Office,” it would have an official character.
MR. DODD: And the fact that it said, “Published by the Central Publishing House of the NSDAP” would not give it one, is that it?
LAUTERBACHER: Certainly not.
MR. DODD: You did not put out any other publications in the nature of a yearbook, did you, except this one?
LAUTERBACHER: A calendar was published every year.
MR. DODD: Well, I am certainly not talking about a calendar; I am talking about a report or a book.
LAUTERBACHER: No.
MR. DODD: And you are still telling this Tribunal that this was not the yearbook of the Hitler Youth and the only one that was published in Germany?
LAUTERBACHER: I repeat that this yearbook did not have any official character.
MR. DODD: Well, after having read that quotation, do you still think that Schirach, as leader of the Reich Youth, was not actively speaking about the Jews in a derogatory sort of way, or that talk of this kind was not going on under his leadership?
LAUTERBACHER: Von Schirach never left any doubt regarding his anti-Semitic attitude as long as he was Reich Youth Leader.
MR. DODD: Do you know the speech he made in 1942 when he took credit for deporting the Jews from Vienna? Are you familiar with that speech?
LAUTERBACHER: No, I do not know that speech. During that time I was in Hanover, and Schirach was in Vienna.
MR. DODD: Yes. He was a fellow Gauleiter at that time.
Did you ever get any SS reports on what was happening to the Jews in the East?
LAUTERBACHER: Never. I never had access to SS reports, SS circulars, or orders.
MR. DODD: Did you deport any Jews from your Gau?
LAUTERBACHER: When I came to the Gau in December 1940, the Jews had already emigrated.
MR. DODD: They were already out by the time you got there?
LAUTERBACHER: Yes.
MR. DODD: Did you ever hear of Gauleiters getting reports from Heydrich or from Himmler about what was happening to the Jews in the East? Did any of your fellow Gauleiter ever tell you that they got reports regularly, say by the month or by the week?
LAUTERBACHER: No. Himmler’s reports were no more accessible to the Gauleiter than they were to the honorary leaders of the SS. As Obergruppenführer of the SS I never received a report or an instruction from Himmler.
MR. DODD: Those Himmler reports were handled pretty carefully, were they not?
I am now asking you—as an SS Obergruppenführer I suppose you know something about it—were those reports handled very carefully, those Himmler and Heydrich reports?
LAUTERBACHER: As an SS Obergruppenführer I never received any of Himmler’s reports, and I know that Himmler sent all reports dealing with confidential or internal SS matters only to SS and Police, that is, SS leaders in the service of the SS, but never to the honorary leaders.
MR. DODD: Now, what I really asked you was whether or not the reports, when they were sent out, were very carefully handled. Do you know the answer to that?
LAUTERBACHER: I do not know. I do not know how these reports were handled.
MR. DODD: What was Heydrich’s reputation, so far as you were concerned, in 1942? Did you think very well of him or did you think very poorly of him before he was killed?
LAUTERBACHER: I only knew Heydrich from meeting him a few times in the Reich Youth Leader’s Office, and I had a good impression of him personally. I am forced to have a different opinion of him now; but only because I now know of his measures.
MR. DODD: What was he doing in the Reich Youth Leader’s Office the few times that you met him? What business did he have there?
LAUTERBACHER: He had intervened on his own initiative and through his own agencies in cases of homosexuality. Schirach forbade that and told him that these matters too were first of all subject to his own jurisdiction.
MR. DODD: You sat in on all of these conferences with Heydrich, no matter how many there were, did you not?
LAUTERBACHER: I participated in one conference on the question of homosexuality in the Hitler Youth.
MR. DODD: Tell us this: Did it appear to you, from what you saw and heard there, that Heydrich and Schirach were very friendly, or on a very friendly basis?
LAUTERBACHER: That conference did not take place with Von Schirach, but with one of the officials from the Reich Youth Leader’s Office who, as Chief of the Hitler Youth Legal Administration, conducted the discussion with Heydrich.
MR. DODD: Were you ever present when Heydrich talked to Von Schirach? Were you ever present?
LAUTERBACHER: No.
MR. DODD: Did Heydrich ever talk to you, or rather, did Von Schirach ever talk to you about Heydrich?
LAUTERBACHER: No, I cannot remember that.
MR. DODD: We have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter?
DR. SAUTER: Thank you, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. SAUTER: With the permission of the President, I shall now call my next witness, Gustav Hoepken.
[The witness Hoepken took the stand.]
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name, please?
GUSTAV DIETRICH HOEPKEN (Witness): Gustav Dietrich Hoepken.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God—the Almighty and Omniscient—that I will speak the pure truth—and will withhold and add nothing.
[The witness repeated the oath.]
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DR. SAUTER: Herr Hoepken, I have already examined you on the case of Schirach when you were in prison?
HOEPKEN: Yes, you have already examined me.
DR. SAUTER: How old are you?
HOEPKEN: I am 36.
DR. SAUTER: What is your father’s occupation?
HOEPKEN: My father is a dock laborer.
DR. SAUTER: And yourself?
HOEPKEN: I was a newspaper boy, a dock laborer, a spare-time student, and sports instructor.
DR. SAUTER: Sports instructor. You are now in American hands, are you not?
HOEPKEN: Yes, I am a prisoner in American hands.
DR. SAUTER: Since when?
HOEPKEN: Since 19 May 1945.
DR. SAUTER: Has the Prosecution interrogated you on this matter?
HOEPKEN: Up to now the Prosecution has not interrogated me.
DR. SAUTER: When did you join the Hitler Youth?
HOEPKEN: I joined the Hitler Youth in 1933.
DR. SAUTER: You joined the Hitler Youth in 1933? How old were you at that time?
HOEPKEN: I was 23.
DR. SAUTER: And in what capacity did you join?
HOEPKEN: First as an ordinary member. In September 1933 I became an Unterbannführer in the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: Unterbannführer in 1933?
HOEPKEN: Yes, in September 1933.
DR. SAUTER: Was that a salaried position or an honorary appointment?
HOEPKEN: From 1933 to 1935 I worked as a sports instructor in the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: And in 1935?
HOEPKEN: In 1935 I joined the government offices at Potsdam as an expert on PT in schools.
DR. SAUTER: But that had nothing to do with the Hitler Youth, had it?
HOEPKEN: At Potsdam I also commanded the Potsdam unit and local headquarters of the Hitler Youth.
DR. SAUTER: So you were a civil servant—or rather, an employee of the State and apart from that an honorary leader of the Hitler Youth?
HOEPKEN: From 1935 until 1939 I was a civil servant in the government offices at Potsdam and I also commanded the Hitler Youth unit and local headquarters at Potsdam in an honorary capacity.
DR. SAUTER: Therefore in the summer of 1939 you joined the Reich Youth Leadership, did you?
HOEPKEN: In June 1939 I joined the Reich Youth Leadership and became adjutant to Baldur von Schirach who was Reich Youth Leader at the time.
DR. SAUTER: And how long did you hold that office?
HOEPKEN: Until August 1939, and then I became a soldier.
DR. SAUTER: Before you joined Schirach’s staff, had you not served in the Armed Forces?
HOEPKEN: Up to joining Schirach in 1939 I had done 8 weeks’ obligatory training in the Air Force.
DR. SAUTER: Apart from that, you had no training?
HOEPKEN: Apart from that I had no military training.
DR. SAUTER: Were you an officer?
HOEPKEN: I had not been an officer up to that time.
DR. SAUTER: So far as his other collaborators were concerned, did Schirach attach importance to their being officers or trained soldiers?
HOEPKEN: So far as I know, Von Schirach did not care whether his collaborators were soldiers or officers, on the contrary, it was his view, as he told me repeatedly, that soldiers and officers, as far as he could see, were less suitable as youth leaders.
DR. SAUTER: I do not want to go into the general question of the training of the Hitler Youth, but I wish to ask you one single question on this point, especially because you are a sports instructor by profession. It is a question about the training of the Hitler Youth in shooting. Were they trained with military weapons, or how were they trained in firing?
HOEPKEN: The Hitler Youth were trained in shooting with air guns or small arms. They did not shoot with military weapons.
DR. SAUTER: In that case I will not put any further questions to you on the subject of uniform as these questions have already been clarified. But there is one other thing in which I am interested and that is the relationship to the Church: Do you know, Witness, whether the Defendant Von Schirach in 1937, that is in the issue of the Berlin paper, the Berliner Tageblatt of 14 January 1937, published an article written by his press adviser Günther Kaufmann, headed “Can the Gap be Bridged”? That article, a copy of which I have before me, deals with a problem in which I am interested, and that is why I want to ask you: Do you know what Schirach made his press adviser write in that article on the question of whether the Hitler Youth leaders should consider the young people’s need for church services or not?
HOEPKEN: I know the article.
DR. SAUTER: You know it?
HOEPKEN: I also know the order issued by the Reich Youth Leader of that time stating that on Sundays there should be no Hitler Youth duty for all those boys and girls who wanted to attend church. Every boy and girl in the Hitler Youth at that time was supposed to be able to attend religious services of his or her own free will; and it was made part of the duty of the Hitler Youth leaders at the time to refrain from entering into any arguments or controversies about the Hitler Youth and the Church. He prohibited that.
DR. SAUTER: Witness, that is the main point of that article of 14 January 1937. But you know that the Defendant Schirach had certain difficulties with Hitler because of this article. Will you tell us briefly what you know about it?
HOEPKEN: As soon as the agreement between the Church and the Hitler Youth was made, the article mentioned appeared in the Berliner Tageblatt. On the day that article appeared, Schirach was at a meeting in Rosenberg’s office. Hitler called Schirach to the telephone at that time. Hitler took Schirach sternly to task, firstly, for making an agreement between the Church and the Hitler Youth and, secondly, for publishing this article. His intention was to cancel the agreement and to ban any further issue of the newspapers. Neither of these things happened.
DR. SAUTER: Did Schirach refuse to withdraw the article?
HOEPKEN: So far as I know he did.
DR. SAUTER: In 1940 you went to Vienna with Schirach?
HOEPKEN: No, I did not.
DR. SAUTER: When did you go?
HOEPKEN: I went to Vienna for the first time in September 1941.
DR. SAUTER: Where had you been in the meantime?
HOEPKEN: I have already told you that I joined the Luftwaffe in August 1939 and served during that time as a service flying instructor in a Luftwaffe training school.
DR. SAUTER: And you did not rejoin Schirach until 1941, and then in Vienna?
HOEPKEN: Yes; I joined Schirach in Vienna in September 1941.
DR. SAUTER: The highest dignitary of the Catholic Church in Vienna is Cardinal Innitzer, right?
HOEPKEN: Yes.
DR. SAUTER: Do you know what Von Schirach’s attitude to Cardinal Innitzer was? I will tell you at once why I am asking you this question; I want to know if it is true that Schirach objected to Cardinal Innitzer’s being molested by the Hitler Youth, and what steps he took, et cetera.
HOEPKEN: Schirach told me repeatedly that he would like to have a talk with Cardinal Innitzer, but that he was not allowed to do so, firstly, because of a decree issued by the former head of the Party Chancellery, Martin Bormann, prohibiting the Gauleiter from contacting Church dignitaries and, secondly, because Schirach knew that he himself was under surveillance.
DR. SAUTER: Who, Schirach?
HOEPKEN: That Schirach was under surveillance and thought that if he forced such a discussion, Bormann would be certain to know of it on the next day, which would have had most unpleasant consequences both for Schirach and Cardinal Innitzer. On the other hand, it was Schirach’s view that Cardinal Innitzer also would certainly have liked to have a talk with Schirach and Schirach thought that certainly would not have been the case if Cardinal Innitzer had not known of his tolerant attitude toward the Church and the Christian religion. It is furthermore known to me—and I think this happened in the winter of 1944 to 1945—that Cardinal Innitzer was molested by youthful civilians while returning from mass. Cardinal Innitzer had the police find out the names of these youngsters, and they turned out to be Hitler Youth leaders. Schirach ordered the competent district leader of the Hitler Youth to him the same day, took him severely to task, and demanded that the youth leaders in question be relieved of their duties at once. As far as I know, this was actually done. I believe I also remember that Schirach had a letter of apology sent to Cardinal Innitzer, either personally or through one of his officials.
THE PRESIDENT: I think we had better break off now.