The 2d Conference.
Upon the 5th of March 1722. Being at Blarehead baptizing the Shepherd’s Child, I came off at Sunsetting, or, a very little after. Near Will. White’s March the Laird of Coul came up with me on Horseback as formerly, and, after his first Salutation bid me not be afraid, for he would do me no Harm. I told him I was not in the least afraid, in the Name of God, and of Christ my Saviour, that he would do the least Harm to me: for, I knew that He in whom I trusted was stronger than all them put together, and if any of them should attempt even to do the Horse I rode upon, Harm, as you have done to Dr. Menzies’ man,[1] if it be true that is said, and generally believed about Dumfries, I have free access to complain to my Lord and Master, to the Lash of whose Resentment you are as much liable now as before.
C. You need not multiply Words upon that Head, for you are as safe with me, and safer, if safer can be, than when I was alive.
I said, Well then, Coul, Let me have a peaceable and easy Conversation with you for the Time we ride together, and give me some Information about the Affairs of the other World, for no man inclines to lose his Time, in conversing with the Dead, without having a Prospect of hearing and learning something that may be usefull.
C. Well, Sir, I will satisfy you, as far as I think it proper and convenient. Let me know what Information you want from me.
O. May I then ask you, if you be in a State of Happiness or not?
C. There are a great many Things that I can answer, which the Living are entirely ignorant of: there are many more Things, that notwithstanding the additional Knowledge I have acquired, since my Death, that I cannot answer, and there are several Things and Questions that you may start, of which the last is one, that I will not answer.
O. Then I know not how to manage our Conversation, for whatever I shall enquire of you, I see you can easily shift me, so that I might profit more by conversing with myself.
O. Well then, what sort of a Body is it that you appear in, and what sort of a Horse is it that you ride on, that appears so full of mettle?
C. You may depend upon it, ’tis not the same Body that I was witness to your Marriage in, nor in which I died, for that is in the Grave rotting; but it is such a Body as answers me in a Moment, for I can fly as fast as my Soul can do without it, so that I can go to Dumfries and return again, before you ride twice the Length of your Horse; nay if I incline to go to London, or to Jerusalem, or to the Moon, if you please, I can perform all these Journeys equally soon, for it costs me nothing but a Thought or Wish; for this Body you see, is as fleet as your Thought, for in the same Moment of Time that you can carry your Thoughts to Rome, I can go there in Person. And for my Horse, he is, much like myself, for ’tis Andrew Johnstoun who was seven years my Tennant, and he died about 48 Hours before me.
O. So it seems when Andrew Johnstoun inclines to ride, you must serve him for an Horse, as he now does you.
C. You are mistaken.
O. I thought all Distinction between Mistresses and Maids, Lairds & Tennants had been done away at Death.
C. True ’tis so, yet still you don’t take up the matter.
O. Is then, Sir, this one of the Questions you will not answer?
C. You are still mistaken; for that Question I can answer, and after this you may readily understand.
O. Tell me then, Coul, have you never yet appeared before God, nor received any Sentence from him as a Judge.
C. Never yet.
O. I know you was a Scholar, Coul; and ’tis generally believed there is a private Judgment, besides the general at the great Day. The former is immediately after Death. Upon this he interrupted me, crying, No such Thing, no such Thing, no Tryal till the last Day: The Heaven which good Men enjoy immediately after Death, consists only in the Serenity of their Thoughts, the Satisfaction of a good Conscience, and the certain Hope they have of an Eternity of Joy when that Day shall come. The Punishment or Hell of the wicked immediately after Death, consists in the dreadful Things of their awakened Conscience, and the Terror of facing the great Judge, and the sensible Apprehensions of eternal Torments ensuing; and this bears still a due Proportion to the Evils they have done, when they were living. So indeed the State of some good Folks differs but little in Happiness from what they enjoyed upon Earth, save only they are freed from the Body and the Sins and Sorrows that attend it. And, on the other Hand, there are some, who may be said rather not to have been good than that they have been wicked while living: their Condition is not easily distinguished from that of the former, and under that Class comes a great Herd of Souls, a vast Number of your ignorant People, who have not much minded the Concerns of Eternity, but, at the same Time, have lived in much Indolence, Ignorance, and Innocence.
O. I always thought that their rejecting the Terms of Salvation offered, was sufficient Ground for God to punish them with his eternal Displeasure. And as to their Ignorance, that could never excuse them, since they lived in a Place of the World, where the Knowledge of these Things might easily have been attained.
C. They never properly rejected the Terms of Salvation, they never, strictly speaking, rejected Christ, poor Souls! they had as great Liking both to Him, and to Heaven, as their gross understandings were capable of; and as to their Ignorance, impartial Reason must make many allowances, such as, the Stupidity of their Parents, their want of Education, their Distance from People of good Sense and Knowledge, the uninterrupted Application they were obliged to give to their secular affairs, for their daily Bread, the impious Treachery of their Pastor, whom they heard perhaps but once a month, or so, and thro’ his unfaithfulness are perswaded, that if they be of such or such a Party all is well; and many other Considerations of the like Nature, which God who is pure and perfect Reason itself will not overlook. These are not so much under the Load of the Divine Displeasure, as they are out of His Graces and Favours, for you know it is one Thing to be discourted, and quite anoyr Thing to be persecuted with all the Power and Rage of an incensed earthly King. So I assure you, men’s Faces in this World are not more various and different, than their Conditions are after Death.
O. I am loath to believe all that you have said at this Time, Coul; but I will not dispute these matters with you, besides, some Things you have advanced, seem to contradict the Scriptures, which I shall ever look upon as the infallible Truths of God; for I find by the Parable of Dives and Lazarus, that one was immediately carried up by the Angels to Abraham’s Bosom, and the other thrust down to a Place of Torment.
C. Excuse me, Sir, that does not contradict one word that I have said; but you seem not to understand the Parable, whose only End is to illustrate the Truth, that a Man may be very happy and flourishing in this World, and most wretched in the next; and that a man may be most miserable and wretched in this World, and most glorious and happy in the next.
O. Be it so, Coul, I yield that Point, and shall pass to another, which has afforded me much Speculation since our last encounter, and that is, how you came to know that I talked after the manner I did concerning Mr. Paton and you on the jst Sabbath of February. Was you present with us but invisible.
He answered somewhat haughtily, No, Sir, I was not present myself.
O. I would not have you to be angry, Coul; I proposed this Question for my own satisfaction, but, if you judge it improper to answer it, Let it pass.
After he had paused, with his Eyes fixed, as I thought, on the Ground for about 3 or 4 Seconds at most; with some Haste and seeming Cheerfulness, he says: Well, Sir, I will satisfy you in that Point. You must know, that from Time to Time, there are sent from Heaven Angels to guard and Comfort, and to do oyr special Services to good People, and even the Spirits of good men departed are employed on that very Errand.
O. And do you think every Man has a Guardian Angel?
C. No, but a great many particular Men have, and there are but few Houses, of Distinction especially, but what have one attending them. And from what you have already heard of these Spirits, ’tis no difficult Matter to understand, how he may be serviceable to each particular Member of it, tho’ in different Places, at a great Distance. Many are the good offices that the Angels do to Men that fear God, tho’ many Times they are not sensible of it, and I know assuredly, that one powerful Angel, or even an active clever Spirit departed, may be sufficient for some villages: But for your great Cities, such as London, Edinburgh, or the like, there is one great Angel that has the Superintendency of the whole; and there are inferior ones, or Spirits departed, to whose particular Charge, such a particular man of Weight and Bussiness is committed. Now, Sir, the Kingdom of Sathan does ape the Kingdom of Christ as much in matters of Politicks as can be: well knowing that the Court of Wisdom is above; so that, hence are sent out Missionaries too in the same order. But because, the Kingdom of Sathan is much better replenished than the other, instead of one Devil, in many Instances, there are 2 or 3 commissioned to attend a particular Family, if it be a Family of great Influence, Power, or Distinction.
O. I read that there are 10-000d Times 10-000d Angels that wait on God, and sing his Praise, and do his Will; and I cannot understand how the good Angels should be inferior in Number to the Evil.
C. Did I not say that whatever the Number be, yet the Spirits departed were employed in the same Bussiness? So, as to the Number of original Devils, whereof Sathan is the chief, I cannot determine. But you need not doubt that there are more Spirits departed in that Place you in a loose general Sense call Hell, by almost an Infinity, by what are gone to that Place, which in the like Sense, you call Heaven, which likewise are employed to the same Purpose. And I can assure you, by the Bye, that there are as great Differences between Angels, both good and bad, as there are amongst Men, with Respect to their Sense, Knowledge, Cleverness, and Cunning or Action. Nay, which is more, the departed Spirits on both Sides, out doe Severals, from their jst Departure, of the Original Angels; This you’l think a Paradox, yet ’tis true.
O. I don’t doubt of it, but what is that to my Question, concerning which I am sollicitous?
C. Take a little Patience, Sir; from what I have said, you might have understood me, if you had your Thoughts about you, but, I shall explain my self to you. Both the good and bad Angels have their stated Times of Rendezvous, and the particular Angel that has the charge either of Towns, Cities or Kingdoms, not to mention inferiour Villages and Families, and Persons; all that are transacted in these several Parts of the Country, are then made open, and at their Encounters, on each Side, every Thing is told, as in your Paroch, at Milns, Kilns and Smiddies, only with this Difference, that many Things false are told at the living Encounters, but nothing but what is exact Truth is told amongst the Dead. Only, I must observe to you, that as I am credibly informed, several of the inferiour bad Angels, or Spirits of wicked departed, have told mighty Things which they have done; and when a more intelligent Spirit has been sent out upon Enquiry, and, the Report of the former, seeming doubtful, he brings in a contrary Report, and making it appear Truth, the former fares very ill.
O. Does ever the like happen among good Angels?
C. I believe never, for their Regard to Truth prevents it; for while they observe Truth, they do their Bussiness, and keep their Station, and God is Truth.
O. So much Truth being among the good Angels, I shall be apt to think, that Lyes and Falshood will be as much in Vogue amongst the bad.
C. A gross mistake, and ’tis not the alone mistake, that the living Folks labour under anent another World: for the Case is plainly this; as an ill man will not stick at any Falshood, that may promote his Design, so as little will an evil Spirit departed stand at any Thing which may make him successfull; but in making Reports, he must tell the Truth, and nothing but the Truth, or, Wo be to him; But besides their stated monthly, Quarterly, and yearly meetings, or whatever they happen to be, the departed Spirits acquainted can make a Trip to sea, and converse with one another, yearly, daily and weekly, or oftener if they please. Thus I answer the Question you are so much concerned about; for, my Information was from no less than three, viz. Andrew Aikman, who attends Thurston’s Family, and James Corbet who waits upon Mr Paton’s for the Time, and was then looking after Mrs Sarah Paton, when shee was at your House, and an original Emissary appointed to wait on your’s.
O. At this I was much surprized, and after a little thinking, I asked him; and is there really, Coul, an Emissary from Hell, in whatever Sense you take it, who attends my Family?
C. Yes, you may depend upon it.
O. And what do you think is his Bussiness?
C. To divert you from your Duty, and to cause you under hand do as many ill Things as he can, for much depends on having the Minister on their Side.
O. Upon this I was struck with a Sort of Terrour, that I cannot account for, nor express. In the mean Time, he said several Things that I did not notice, but after a little, I coming to my former Presence of mind, said. But Coul, tell me in earnest, if there be a Devil that attends my Family, tho’ invisible to us all?
C. Just as sure as you are breathing; but be not too much dejected upon this Information; for, I tell you likewise, there is a good Angel that attends you, who is stronger than the other.
O. Are you sure of that, Coul?
C. Yes, there is one just now riding at your Right-hand, who might as well have been else where, for I meant you no Harm.
O. And how long has he been with me?
C. Only since we past Brunsley, but now he is gone.
O. Coul, we are just now upon Elmscleugh, and I desire to part with you, tho’ I have gained more from our Conversation together, than what perhaps I would have done otherwise in a twelve month, I chuse rather to see you at another Time, when you are at Leisure, and I wish it may be at as great a Distance from Innerwick as you can.
C. Be it so, but I hope you will be as obliging to me, next Encounter, as I have been to you this.
O. I promise you, I will, as far as it consists with my Duty to my Lord and Master Christ Jesus; and since you oblige me so much by Information, you may depend upon it, I will answer all the Questions you can propose, so far as it consists with my Knowledge; but I believe you want no Information from me.
C. I came not to be instructed by you, but I want your Help of anoyr Kind. but more of this at next meeting, so, says he, I bid you Farewell and went off peaceably at the Head of the Paith[2] opposite to Elmscleugh.
