Witness had seen two children, neighbours, lying dead.
By Mr. Justice James Parke.—Saw no difference in the appearance of the woman's countenance before or after the coffee. Witness did not use the privy when he went into the cellar, and thinks he told the magistrate so. Thinks he has given a different account of this occurrence before. Thinks he told the magistrate that the woman was alive on Saturday morning. He said so because he did not like to tell the truth.
Mr. Henry Reynolds.—Is a surgeon living in Prescott-street. Has heard the account given by the preceding witness of the manner in which the old woman was treated. Such treatment was sufficient to cause death by suffocation. The motion of the eyes might be produced by suffocation. It is generally the last motion of life.
Cross-examined by Mr. Churchill.—It is not a matter of course that there would be a change of countenance after suffocation: that is a circumstance modified by age. Generally speaking, a change takes place.
A plan of the room and cellar was handed to a surveyor, who swore that they were correctly drawn. The room was eleven feet eleven inches from the fire to the window, and lengthways thirteen feet. The bedstead in the room was six feet long and four feet two inches broad. The light thrown into the cellar by the window was obstructed by the stairs.
On cross-examination, the surveyor stated, that the place under the stairs was darker than in other places; but after being in the cellar, the eye became accustomed to the place, and could distinguish any thing lying under the stairs.
Edward Cook was recalled, and, in answer to a question, stated that he did not suspect what his mother was doing when she placed her hand on the old woman. Did not see his mother take any clothes off the old woman. Heard his mother say something about some hospital; but does not know what. Said before the magistrate, that his mother told him herself, on Sunday morning, that she took the body to the London Hospital. Witness still declared that his mother did tell him so on Sunday morning.
Elizabeth Jones.—Is the wife of George Jones. In August last kept a house in Goodman's-yard, in which the prisoner lodged. The privy, in the cellar, was not much frequented, on account of the great number of rats. There was another privy, not in the cellar, which was used by the inmates. The window of the cellar was generally opened about seven o'clock. Remembers an old woman coming to the house, at ten o'clock, on the 19th of August. She was a tall person; but witness did not see her face. She had on a dark stuff gown, a light blue shawl, and a black willow bonnet: her feet were through her stockings, and she wore shoes. Witness, on her first examination, described the shawl to be an old dark one; but upon recollection, knows that the colour was light blue. Witness took particular notice of the woman, on account of her looking poor. Supposed that she had come to lodge in the house, in consequence of her carrying a bundle. Everything behind the woman appeared tidy, but witness did not see her face. Afterwards saw Mrs. Butin—thinks the next morning; Mrs. Butin came to inquire after her grandmother.
Cross-examined by Mr. Barry.—Witness slept at home on Saturday, the 20th of August.
Ann Butin.—Is a married woman. Her husband travels in the country. In August last had a grandmother of the name of Caroline Walsh. She was sixty-four years of age, and very tall. She was a robust and hearty woman. Witness had only known her to be ill one week during the last six years. She lodged with witness in July last, and got her living by selling tapes and laces, which she carried in a basket. She was very cleanly in her appearance. She last saw her on the 19th of August. She then wore a dark gown and light blue shawl, with part of the colour washed out; also a black willow bonnet, broken in the crown, and pinned with two pins. Her petticoat was made of figured stuff. It had the pattern of a leaf. She had an old shift, very much pieced, but of a good colour, also a pair of grey worsted knit stockings. Witness knitted those stockings, which were quite different from what are sold in shops. They were very much broken at the heel, and had been mended. She had on a small pair of men's shoes, which were too large for her, and by slipping wore out the stockings at the heel. Shortly before the 19th of August witness had obtained a lodging-for her grandmother at Mrs. Shaw's. Witness made a pocket for her, which she wore on the 19th of August. Witness saw her grandmother on the 19th of August, about twelve o'clock in the day. Saw her again at five o'clock, in the street, and then found out that she was going to Cook's. On that day witness had called at Cook's at twelve o'clock. Saw a bundle tied up in the room, and found it to contain her grandmother's nightgown and night-cap, small mattress, a rug and sheet. Knows it was the 19th of August, because that was the day on which her sister's child went to nurse. Saw the boy Cook there. He was in the daily habit of seeing her grandmother. Left a message with the boy for her grandmother. At five o'clock met her grandmother in Cutler-street, and was angry with her for going to Cook's. Had tried to persuade her not to go there. Appointed with her to call at Cook's next morning, and told her not to go out till witness came. Her grandmother agreed not to go out. Mrs. Cook had frequently said that she wished witness's grandmother to come and lodge with her. She was very inquisitive. The prisoner knew her to be the granddaughter of Mrs. Walsh. Has never seen her grandmother since the time she parted from her in Cutler-street. Has a sister named Lydia Basy. At nine o'clock went to Mrs. Cook's. Saw the female prisoner in the room. Witness asked her where the old lady was; the prisoner told her that she had just gone. Witness said that she was very much surprised, as her grandmother expected her. Prisoner replied that the old lady had told her so; that she had gone out soon to be soon home, and that they all had a jolly good supper. Witness observed, that she was very glad they had enjoyed themselves, and should take the liberty of asking what they had. The prisoner answered, that they had potatoes and meat, and Cook went out to get something short, to make the old lady comfortable; that Cook seemed very partial to the old lady, and that she slept on the bedstead last night. Witness said that she was very much surprised, as her grandmother had her own bed to sleep on, and had never been in the habit of sleeping with any other person. Witness observed the bundle in the room lying in the same state in which she had left it. The prisoner said that Cook had doubled up that piece of sacking to put the old woman in last night. There was a coarse piece of sacking in the room. Witness expressed her surprise, and asked what she meant. The prisoner replied, that Cook doubled it up, and put it underneath the old woman. The prisoner also said that the old woman had got no shift on; but if witness brought one, she would wash it for the old woman. Witness said that she did not think her grandmother wanted a shift; but if she did, witness offered to give her one. A week before, witness had given her a clean shift and clean cap. Witness asked the prisoner how she came to know that her grandmother had no shift? and said, 'You must have examined her person very close to know that.' The prisoner afterwards said, that witness had a coffee-pot, a frying-pan, and a tub, to give to the old woman. Witness said she would give them to her grandmother when she saw her. Witness and the prisoner then went to Bishop's, a gin-shop, at the corner of Goodman's-yard. They drank some gin and beer. Witness began again to talk of her grandmother. The prisoner observed, 'From what you say, you seem to think that we have murdered the old woman.' Witness said, 'I hope not.' The prisoner repeated, 'From what you say, you think we destroyed her at our place.' Witness said, 'Mrs. Cook, you put the words in my mouth; what I suspect I don't say now, but you shall know of it hereafter.' Prisoner wanted witness to go to her house to have something to eat. Witness refused: but prisoner asked so often, that witness gave her threepence-halfpenny to fetch a loaf and cheese, and promised to take some of it in the public-house. The prisoner went away, and never came back. Witness waited two hours in the public-house, and then went searching for her grandmother for about three quarters of an hour. Witness afterwards pledged a gown, in the name of Welsh, at a pawnbroker's, named Austin. Witness returned to Cook's lodgings about five or six o'clock; both prisoners were present. Witness asked whether the old woman had come home yet. The female prisoner gave no answer to the question; but put up her hand, and told her not to speak. The male prisoner had gone to the window, and this sign was made behind his back. The female prisoner then said softly, 'You must not tell Cook that I was in your company to-day.' The male prisoner in a few minutes after went down stairs. The female prisoner then told witness, that Cook had beaten her most unmercifully.—(She had marks of having been beaten.) The prisoner said that Cook had beaten her for having gone out with her; that Cook had said she had no business to go out looking for the old lady. Witness went several times to Cook's, to inquire for her grandmother; also went to the hospitals and poor-houses, and found nothing of her. Mrs. Cook went with her to one of the poor-houses. On the Monday night saw the man Cook at his house, between six and seven o'clock. The female prisoner was present at the time. Witness told them what she had been doing; and the man said that she had better wait till the month was up, and it was very likely that she might hear of her grandmother, dead or alive, then. The female prisoner asked witness several times to stay all night. The husband could hear what the woman said. The female prisoner said that she (witness) must be tired, and that she might sleep on her grandmother's bed; and perhaps, while she stopped there, her grandmother might come home. Witness replied, that she had her sister's house to go to, and did not wish to stop at Cook's. Witness made some complaint to the police-office; but it was not till October that Lea, the officer, took up the matter. When the prisoners were at Lambeth-street police-office, witness heard the female prisoner say something about 'hot and cold.' What the prisoner said was heard by the magistrate.