Lord Ellenborough.—What words did he use?—He only told me that Mr. Church had behaved in a very indecent manner to him.
Witness had never any intimation that there were thieves in the house; did not go to search for thieves in the house. When Foreman told him that Mr. Church had behaved in a very indecent manner to him, witness went to see if there was any other person in the place. Foreman did not tell witness he believed there were thieves in the house. Witness is quite sure Foreman did not explain in what way Church behaved to him. He did not say any thing like—That he came to his bed-side and laid his hand on his private parts. This was on the night of the 25th of September; witness afterwards went before the magistrate, at the same time with Foreman, the apprentice. To Union Hall. Foreman did not, in the course of the morning, when staying with witness, and after he had been to the house, tell witness what Church had done to him, and that he had laid has hand upon his private parts; never told him so, from first to last. Witness cannot say at what time it was that he went before the Magistrate with Foreman; cannot say the day of the month; it was some time afterwards; believes it was six or seven weeks after; the lad then went with his father; the lad generally slept at home at his father’s; his father’s is about a quarter of a mile from his master’s; he slept at his father’s the next night but one; it was not till about six or seven weeks after that, they went to the justice; witness did not communicate with Mr. Patrick upon the subject before he went to the justice.
MR. PATRICK sworn.
Examined by Mr. Bolland.—Is a potter at Vauxhall. The boy, Foreman, has been with him ever since he has been in the pottery business, between five and six years. He only slept in witness’s house occasionally; that is, whenever he (witness) leaves town; and then he has the key of the pottery, there being no other male in the house. Witness was absent from home on the 25th of September last. The boy on that occasion was to steep in his (witness’s) house. The bed that had been put up for him was a chair-bed in the front parlour; a temporary bed for a nurse occasionally. Witness knows the Defendant, John Church. He is a Baptist preacher. Witness first became acquainted with him when he came to Vauxhall. Witness attends his chapel, and so became acquainted with him. His residence is adjoining the chapel. In the month of September he came to sleep at witness’s house. Witness put a bed up for him. He had complained of ill health occasionally; and thinking that he was ill, witness asked him out of friendship to take a bed at his (witness’s) house, supposing that the air would be of service to him. Does not live very close the river. Witness was out from home on the 25th of September. Did not return till the evening of the 26th. The boy, Foreman, made a communication to him the next morning when he saw him. Witness returned on the evening of the 26th.
By Lord Ellenborough.—Then it was the day but one after, namely, the morning of the 27th that the boy made the communication to you?—Yes; my Lord.
Did not see Foreman on the night of witness’s return—not to speak with him. On the morning of the 27th he made the communication to witness respecting this transaction. Witness told Foreman he was extremely sorry for what had happened. Witness had had many applications from the congregation, to whom he made it known. It was in consequence of the information they had received from general report, that they applied to witness for authentic information. Several of the congregation made those applications. There was a meeting upon the subject. In consequence of applications made to witness from the congregation, he went to the Defendant, Church. Thinks it was on the 9th of October. There had not before that been a meeting of the congregation, at which witness was present. Did not take any steps between the 27th of September to see Church, and the 9th of October, upon the subject. That was the first communication witness had with Church upon the subject. Church said to him, he took it extremely kind of witness in calling upon him. Witness told him he might take it as he pleased; that he did not come willingly, but that some of his congregation thought that witness ought to see him on the business. Patrick cannot say Church, appeared to be apprized of the subject before witness began; but believes he was apprized from what afterwards occurred. Witness told him he (witness) waited upon him, having seen a letter wherein he denied three particular points of the boy’s statement; and witness wished to know what those points were. He said that he denied having hold of the boy, or the boy having told of him; or he, Church, saying that he was the boy’s mistress. He admitted he was in the room, but denied laying hold of the boy’s private parts; did not state any reason for being in the room at all. He said that he denied three particular points, two of which witness had already named. The other was something that did not occur to witness to be important, and which he did not take any notice of, consequently does not remember it. Witness told him that, of these two points mentioned, the boy was positive, and witness had no reason to doubt any thing that the boy had said, as he had never known him to tell a lie. He said that he was sorry for it, because that confirmed antient reports; witness told him it did so; and, of course, that now he should believe all that he had heard heretofore. Witness then wished him a good morning. Did not see him at any time afterwards to speak to him; has seen him, but not spoken to him since. The letter that witness had seen, which he spoke to Church about, was a letter dated the 6th of October, addressed to a Mrs. Hunter. Witness took an exact copy of it. Mr. Harmer has it. Is that the copy? (A paper put into the witness’ hand.) Yes; it is an exact copy. Witness did not read that copy of the letter to Church; he had. not the copy at that time; only told him he wished to know what the three things were which he could deny, as asserted by the boy; does not recollect the third point; it is not material. He admitted being in the room, but denied the laying hold,—he said, “I was in the room; but I did not lay hold of the boy.” Did not say why he was in the room. Witness returned the letter of the 6th of October to Mrs. Hunter. He got it from Mrs. Hunter, and to Mrs. Hunter he returned it.
Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney.—Meant to say that Church said distinctly to witness that he was in the room. Did not mention to any person, after he had see Mr. Church, that he was not implicated in the affair at all. Never said any such thing. Did not give any person an account of the conversation you had with him, and accompany that account with this observation, “He is not at all implicated.” Mr. Thomas went to the door of Mr. Church with witness. Thomas is no friend of witness’s; witness had only seen him at the door. It was his wife and witness’s that wished witness to make the application to Mr. Church. Mr. Thomas went with him as far as the door, but did not go in with him. Witness told him briefly what had transpired; it was very short what did transpire. He told Mr. Thomas what had transpired at the interview with Mr. Church, when he came out. Think he told Mr. Thomas that Mr. Church admitted having been in the room, but is not positive as to that point; knows he told him that Mr. Church said he did not lay hold of the boy. Did not answer, on Mr. Thomas asking, “Well, is there any thing against Mr. Church, or not.”—“No; he is not at all implicated.” Never told him, directly or indirectly, that there was nothing to implicate Mr. Church. Witness did say he would prosecute Mr. Church because he had said disgraceful things of witness’s wife, but not for this crime, but for defamation of his wife’s character. Don’t know that he ever told Mr. Thomas so, but believes he said that, or words to that effect, to other persons. Did not mention that, amongst other things, on that very morning that he had the interview with Mr. Church; some other time he might.
MRS. HUNTER sworn.
Examined by Mr. Marryatt.
Is an attendant amongst the congregation, and a hearer of Mr. Church. Received a letter in the beginning of the month of October, but there was no name to it. There was no place of abode given, nor any thing except the day of the month; could not tell from whom it came; gave it to Mr. Patrick’s daughter, who gave it to her father; it was returned to witness again, who took no further notice of it. Witness had a subpœna duces tecum so produce it, but was impossible to produce it. After the letter was returned witness took no further notice of it, but put it into a drawer; knows no more than his Lordship what is become of it; looked for it on the Thursday morning before she came, but could find no scraps of it; was not able to find it; was wholly unable to find it; witness searched diligently to find it; is convinced there was no name to it. Has seen Mr. Church’s hand-writing, and has seen it written in a different hand, not always alike, but sometimes very different; not to say exactly two different hands, but such a difference in the same hand-writing that she would hardly think it the same; has seen it so different, at times, that she should not at all times, think, it was the same; thinks it was Church’s hand-writing, but could not be positive, as there was no name to it; cannot say whether it was or was not; it is not in witness’s power. Witness believed, at that time, that it was his hand-writing, and believes it still. When she opened it she was very much struck with the similarity, for it had very much the appearance of his hand-writing; but, as their was not a signature, could not be certain. It had the appearance of his handwriting. Witness’s belief now, whether it was or was not his hand-writing, is exactly this same now as it was then. Cannot say. She firmly believes it was his hand-writing, because it was not signed. Did not communicate it to any body but Mr. Patrick. Communicated to Mr. Patrick that she had received a letter from Mr. Church.
Cross-examined by the Common Serjeant. The search which witness made for this letter was not until last Thursday. Witness has no reason to believe that it is in her house, for she did not leave a draw or place unsearched.