61. To him we answer: How then comes it that it may be where the rock is not, but only sand; seeing that the Church is on the rock, and not on sand?
Chap. xxxii.—62. Another Victor of Assura[585] said: "It is written, that 'there is one God and one Christ, one Church and one baptism.'[586] How then can any one baptize in a place where there is not either God, or Christ, or the Church?"
63. How can any one baptize either in that sand, where the Church is not, seeing that it is on the rock; nor God and Christ, seeing that there is not there the temple of God and Christ?
Chap. xxxiii.—64. Donatulus of Capsa[587] said: "I also have always entertained this opinion, that heretics, who have gained nothing outside the Church, should be baptized when they are converted to the Church."
65. To this the answer is: They have, indeed, gained nothing outside the Church, but that is nothing towards salvation, not nothing towards the sacrament. For salvation is peculiar to the good; but the sacraments are common to the good and bad alike.
Chap. xxxiv.—66. Verulus of Rusiccada[588] said: "A man that is a heretic cannot give that which he has not; much more is this the case with a schismatic, who has lost what he had."
67. We have already shown that they still have it, because they do not lose it when they separate themselves. For they do not receive it again when they return: wherefore, if it was thought that they could not give it because they were supposed not to have it, let it now be understood that they can give it, because it is understood that they also have it.