Letters on the Moral and Religious State of South America / Written during a residence of nearly seven years in Buenos Aires, Chile, Peru and Colombia

by D.D. James Thomson

I differ from you, I replied, regarding the meaning and application of the passages you have quoted from the Scriptures. But as you will have the church to explain them, and as the church does actually explain them as you have stated, we cannot therefore meet each other here, on open ground. Let us then pass on to the other fundamental principle which you hold, namely, the fulfilling of this promise in the way you have explained it. How then do you prove to me, that the church has never varied in her doctrines?—I prove, said he, the constancy and stability of the church by the uniform voice of ecclesiastical writers, from the days of the Apostles until now. No sooner did any pastor or bishop broach any new doctrine, than his own flock, and the whole body of Christians, every where raised the cry against him. Errors now and then arose, continued he, and errors too of great consequence, but in this manner they were publicly reprobated, and the individuals who had erred were thereby brought to repentance, or else expelled the church.—As I wished to drive this subject to its proper issue, and to fix upon the very point upon which we differed, and which point it was necessary to settle before we could proceed farther with any advantage, I put this question to him: Do you maintain that the writers upon ecclesiastical affairs, from the days of the Apostles downward, have all held the same opinions regarding the interpretation of Scripture? Not exactly so, said he, for there have been differences among them regarding the interpretation of several passages of Scripture; and he here instanced several opinions of St. Augustine, St. Cyprian, &c. But so far, continued he, as respects what are strictly and properly called the doctrines of the church, I maintain that there is no difference among them, although in points of discipline they are not all agreed. You hold then, said I, do you, that so far as the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church are concerned, the writers we speak of do not vary? I expected he would here give an answer at once in the affirmative, but he withdrew a little farther, and said that he would not affirm to the question I had put, as to all that these writers had said; but so far only, as they had given their testimony to the doctrines in question as existing among them, he wished to speak, and not as to their own opinions of these doctrines. He here stated some opinions of the fathers, and said, that so far as they acted as witnesses to what existed among them, and in the ages previous to their time, thus far and no further were their writings to be considered respecting the argument in hand. I here reminded him by the way, of what I had before urged, but which he did not concede, namely, that there were a great variety of opinions among the Catholics as well as among the Protestants. I stated, at the same time, that I did not urge this particularly as an objection to their system, but merely as a counterpart to his objection to the Protestants, arising from their differences. I then put the question: Do you maintain then, that so far as ecclesiastical writers have given testimony to the doctrines of the church, they do not vary, nor can vary?—Yes, said he, I do maintain that position.—I then replied, I am glad we have come at length to this one definite point, and I am glad, also, that you have excluded the opinions of the writers on these subjects, and that you rest solely on them as witnesses. I now see the point you maintain, and here we will come to issue. My answer, for the present, shall be short. This position which you maintain, is a position which I believe to be insupportable, and which, in consequence, I deny. Here, then, let the subject for the present rest; we have got a great length in seeing the very line which divides us, and we have now the matter free of mystery. It is reduced to a mere historical question. We shall, therefore, decide it as such on some future occasion, when I shall take in hand to prove that the church has varied.

We have now seen, said I, the very point in which we differ, let us also see where we agree. I believe, said I, that all mankind are sinners, and stand in need of a Saviour. I believe that God pitied our race, and sent his only begotten Son to seek and to save the lost. I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the true Mediator and Saviour of mankind, and that there is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. I do sincerely believe, I continued, in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Lord and my Redeemer; and, I trust, also that I desire to know all his precepts and instructions, and to conform my thoughts, and words, and actions thereunto.—I then said to him, is not this exactly what you believe?—He said it was so. Well then, I replied, may not we look upon each other as fellow disciples, and may not we each expect, if we hold on, that the Lord will give unto us both that crown of righteousness which he hath promised to them that love him? He here seemed to hesitate, and did not give a direct reply. You see that I was here touching upon the point of there being no salvation out of their church.—He said that what I had stated regarding my faith was well, but that there was something farther necessary, and upon saying so, he seemed to digress a little, or, at least, not to speak directly to the point in hand. My dear Sir, said I, pray let us settle this point. Have the goodness to speak your mind freely; speak out, what do I still want, what more must I believe, than what I have stated, in order to obtain eternal life. Did not the Lord Jesus himself concede eternal life to those who believed what I have told you in my belief? And did not the Apostles, according to the power invested in them, remit the sins of those who believed and acted in the manner I have stated? He then said something about the necessity of believing the church, in order to salvation.—Can I not look for salvation without this? said I.—Take care that you do not put obstacles in the way to heaven, which the God of our salvation has not put. Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, pray then, do not with stumbling blocks fill up this narrow way. Let the Lord Jesus and his Apostles guide us in this, and in all matters that concern the kingdom of God.

Upon arriving here we found our time was gone, and that we had been upwards of two hours in a very close conversation. As my friend could stop no longer, we broke up our conversation at this point, he still stating it as necessary to salvation, that I should believe the church. When we thus dropped our disputation, he arose, and as I accompanied him out, he threw his arms around me, and said, “We shall yet, I trust, be united together, and companions in our Lord Jesus Christ.”

I have lengthened my account of this interview, perhaps unnecessarily, and it may be till I have tired you. By way of excuse, I would say that I felt real interest in the conversation, and my endeavour has been to make you participate with me, as I believe what interests and pleases one of us is not unpleasing, nor without interest, to the other. It often happens, however, that what interests us in a conversation or narrative loses its effect upon others by the imperfect way in which we repeat it. In the present instance, this is very likely the case, but I leave you to judge.

I have only to remark, before I conclude, that the point in dispute between us is now reduced to narrow limits; and it was my main endeavour to bring it to this bearing, nor was he averse to it. He is, as I said at the outset, a man of good talents, and reasons clearly. I do not promise to you that we shall be able to set the subject at rest in our next conference, notwithstanding all the accuracy and honesty of my good friend. You know there are many things which prevent such an anticipation. I shall, however, endeavour to prove to him, in the first place, that the church at Rome, and other churches in the days of the Apostles, held the doctrines and followed the practices which are contained in the New Testament. With these doctrines I shall then compare the doctrines of the church of Rome in the present day; and if I can show a disparity between them, I think impartiality should give the judgment in my favour, even without entering upon ecclesiastical history; as I shall thus have proved that the church has varied, and hence that those passages he referred to, must be misinterpreted by Romish writers, and that they do not apply to their church, whose infallibility must, of course, fall to the ground, agreeably to the principles stated in the preceding conversation. Should, however, justice not speak out in my favour, I shall pass on to show, from ecclesiastical writers, that the doctrines of the Church of Rome differ in the present day from what they were in the first and second centuries, and even later. By this means I hope to arrive at the same conclusion, as in the way before mentioned, and thus to disprove my friend’s position of the church never having varied, by the very means by which he maintains it. This I conceive, is the only way of managing the controversy between the Catholic and the Protestant. Until you settle this point about the authority of the church, you can do nothing effectually. If you cite, for instance, a passage of Scripture to disprove any one of the doctrines of the Catholic church, you are met immediately with the interpretation which the church puts upon that passage, and there is an end of it. If you should allege that the passage plainly and evidently means something very different from each interpretation, then you are reminded that our judgement is weak and erring, and that the judgment of the church is infallible. So that to whatever hand you turn, you never can get out of this circle. It is therefore necessary to demolish this outwork entirely. What I have said of course applies chiefly to the mode of reasoning with those who are thorough-paced in their theological arguments; but with regard to others, you can attack them in any particular part, and carry your argument forward on the principles of common sense, and by the doctrines of Scripture taken in their plain and obvious meaning.

Lima, 1st June, 1824.

In the conclusion of my letter of the 1st of March, I noticed that this city had been taken possession of by the Spanish army. It is still in their possession, and there does not appear, at present, any immediate prospect of a change in this respect. You will not expect from me political news under present circumstances, and I pass on to note what little affairs have come under my observation during these two or three months past, respecting that kingdom which cannot be moved by the strifes of men, nor the clangour of war.

My letter to Mr. H. of 25th March would inform you of the protection which the Spanish General granted to our schools. In consequence of that encouragement, I resolved to remain her some time longer, in order to put our establishment upon as sure a footing as possible. Nothing material occurred in our school upon the arrival of the Spaniards, except the losing of some of our scholars. The cause of this was the dread their parents were in, lest their children should be seized on their way to and from the school by the recruiting parties, who not infrequently take some of the bigger boys as they find them in the street, in order to make drummers of them. Our number, in consequence of this, is less than it was about three months ago. In these times, when party spirit runs high, we endeavour in our school to maintain a strict neutrality in words and actions. We found some difficulty during the first days, after our change of rulers, to establish this neutrality among the children themselves. They would, from time to time, be forming themselves into sides, and calling each other respectively Patriots and Goths. We have in the school, children whose parents have taken opposite sides in this contest, and as might naturally be expected, the children on the one hand and on the other have imbibed the sentiments of their parents. We succeeded at length in putting an end to these strifes among the children, and we now all live in peace and unity. The government holds out to us no immediate encouragement, and on the other hand, it never in any shape interferes with our operations. On the whole, this school is going on very well. The children are making progress in their learning, and advancing in moral dignity; and some are lisping out, and some are reading with readiness, the gracious words which proceeded out of the mouth of our blessed Saviour, as they were taken down by the Holy Spirit. I may add, that we are not losing the estimation of our friends here, but on the contrary, if I mistake not, we are gaining more friends in both parties, and making advances in public confidence.

About three weeks ago I was on the eve of leaving this place, and had, as on a former occasion, every thing packed up with that intention. I had indeed resolved to sail for Guayaquil with the first ship, and was inquiring for a passage. My reasons for doing so were quite solid. My salary, as I suppose you know, is paid by the government. Under present circumstances, the payment of the troops is the first thing attended to, and to procure funds sufficient for this purpose, requires great exertions in the present exhausted state of this place. To obtain this supply, all the ordinary sources of revenue are laid hold of, and pretty heavy contributions also are laid on the inhabitants to make up deficiencies. This being the case, there was no prospect of my obtaining any supplies, more especially as persons in the immediate employ of the government, and who have salaries assigned them, could obtain nothing. To make certain, however, I made application, and found it impossible to obtain any thing, on account of the circumstances mentioned. As you know I have no supplies but what my own hands provide me with, it became an imperative duty to remove when my usual resources were dried up. These were my reasons for going, and I suppose you will consider them sufficient, especially if you take into consideration the high price of all kinds of provisions in this city. Sugar for instance, which grows and is manufactured within a few miles of the city, is now selling at twenty-pence and two shillings the pound.