Memoirs of the Courts and Cabinets of George the Third / From the Original Family Documents, Volume 1

by Duke of Richard Plantagenet Temple Nugent Brydges Chandos Grenville Buckingham and Chandos

After this there was a long conversation rather than debate.

Eden said that he did not mean to oppose the motion; but that when he proposed the repeal last year, he had given his opinion that it would be and ought to be satisfactory. In the first opinion he was confirmed by the following paragraph in the Addresses: "Gratified in this, we const:" &c., &c.; that he thought the other was equally evident from the transaction itself, &c.; but that from the moment he found that the contrary idea was taken up by Mr. Walsh's precision, by Mr. Flood's prodigious ability, and by the Recorder's integrity, he knew it would prevail. He then said that there were still matters which required adjustment; and instanced several acts made Irish by Yelverton's Bill, which would expire in this country in the case of peace, and the re-enacting of which would not prevent their dropping in Ireland; but I own I doubt this on the construction of Yelverton's Bill.

Fitzpatrick said he did not mean to oppose this Bill; but at the same time he was exceedingly sorry that the motion went beyond the mere case of judicature which called for the interference of Parliament; that it professed to remove jealousies and discontents; that this was impossible; that there would always be found men to start grounds of jealousies, &c.—men whose consequence arose only from ferment; that the body of the country was satisfied; spoke a good deal at different times about the Duke of Portland's friends and their honourable support.

Lord Beauchamp said, that as far as he understood the intentions of Government, he approved of them—understanding them to go to a complete derilection of the right in terms so as not to be undone again. He entered at large into the arguments against simple repeal; and, in answer to Fitzpatrick, who had dwelt much on the resolution of the Houses of Parliament as speaking the sense of the nation, in contradiction to the Volunteer resolutions, said that he wondered to hear such an argument from him, who took the sense of the people of England in taverns and at clubs, &c., &c.

Fitzpatrick replied to him: went over much the same ground; defended the simple repeal; then retorted upon Lord Beauchamp; and took his pamphlet out of his pocket, and reading his last sentence, that his lips should be closed for ever upon the subject, observed that he, in his turn, was a little surprised, after this, to hear the noble Lord's lips opened to run a race with Government, &c., &c.

I then desired to explain, that so far from saying that the Bill was to be grounded on the insufficiency of the repeal, I had said the direct contrary, and had stated a few days ago in the House, my full opinion that the faith of Great Britain had thereby been pledged to Ireland upon the avowed principle of putting an end to every idea of legislation and jurisdiction over that kingdom, and that nothing was implied by the present motion which went to impeach that.

Fox then spoke. He went over the ground of simple repeal; defended Grattan and his friends very warmly; and seemed to imply pretty strongly, though he did not quite express it, that you was to abandon—to desert those men of high integrity and honour, whose great abilities were the smallest part of their merit, &c. It is impossible to go over the whole of what he said; but it chiefly turned upon these heads: he said that no Bill would do if there was not confidence; that such a system should be adopted as to ensure this confidence, not to humiliate the Parliament of Great Britain by bringing propositions founded on supposed discontents, &c.; that the judicature was given up, as far as related to appeals, by the repeal of the Declaratory Act; that writs of error were prohibited by the Irish Act; however, a Bill might be necessary to prevent here the exercise of a nugatory jurisdiction; but that if the preamble of that Bill was, as had been stated by Fitzpatrick and Lord Beauchamp, as a case to be approved of, to declare the intention, he did not conceive how it would alter the question at all, for if the repeal was ineffectual, it would not make it less so, &c.

I again got up to desire that it might be understood that I had not said anything which could in any way be construed into an idea of abandoning, of deserting, &c., &c., men of whom I entertained the highest opinion—men in whose integrity I knew Government might confide with safety, and whose abilities were, as he had said, great as they were, the least part of their merit.

Mr. Percival said something about a law to try persons for crimes committed in Ireland in England, and desired we would attend to that, and give it up. I mean to do so. MacDonald asked if it was meant that all idea of legislation and jurisdiction should be given up. Townshend said, undoubtedly.

Pitt then closed the business with great ability. He said that he was happy to find that, although much conversation rather than debate had taken place, much of which he thought superfluous, still, as to the motion and the main object of it, the avowing in direct terms, &c., &c., that had been unanimously agreed to on all sides of the House. He added, in answer to Fox, that he trusted it would be found that the Government was placed, both in England and in Ireland, in the hands of persons who would not less merit the confidence, would adopt measures not less calculated to promote the peace, happiness and prosperity of Ireland, at the same time, with an attention not less scrupulous to the dignity of the English Parliament, than any other man or set of men whatever.