I replied as follows: If the gentleman is correct in asserting that the text is to be understood literally, the following are FACTS, concerning the Hereafter: 1. Hell is a place, not a state or condition, but a place; has a local habitation as well as a name; has length, width, depth and highth; in fact, is the penitentiary of the universe. Hell is called in the passage, “this place of torment.” 2. Hell is a fiery furnace. The rich man says, “I am tormented in these flames,” and begs for a drop of water to cool his tongue. 3. “This place of torment,” this region of fire, is within speaking distance of heaven. Abraham and the rich man had a talk on some interesting topics. Heaven and hell, then, are neighbors. They are located side by side; the division fence being a gulf. 4. If the fate of those two men is to be the fate of all mankind, the world is to be divided. Parents and children, husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, friends and neighbors, are to be eternally separated—part to be in heaven, and part in hell.
Now, I want to know if there could be any happiness in such a heaven. Could parents be happy seeing their children in hell, as Abraham saw the “rich man?” Could children be happy, beholding the mother who bore them, and the father who loved them, writhing in the liquid flames, the cursed of God, and the sport of devils? Could the wife behold the beloved partner of her life, suffering immortal agony in the fiery furnace, and rejoice and sing praise? I read a few days since a Presbyterian Sabbath School report, and the writer states, that “heaven will be made up of remnants of ruined families.” Nearly every family will be ruined—a remnant only will escape the dreadful wreck. To expect happiness in such a heaven, would be like expecting oranges to grow on icebergs. But if the gentleman is right in his interpretation of the passage before us, there is just such a heaven, and just such a hell; and about every family will be irredeemably ruined, and eternally divided. The nearest approach to such a shocking scene, is a band of naked and painted savages, laughing and dancing around the blazing stake, at which their victims are burning. There is your heaven, and your hell, on a small scale.
But to prevent the denizens of heaven becoming insane at such a frightful spectacle, it is said, their memory will be destroyed; they will not remember they ever had dear friends on earth. Yes, and they will have to have their eyes put out, for Abraham could see the rich man. They will also have to be as deaf as adders, else the cries, groans and lamentations of hell will ever be sounding in their ears. But it must be evident to every reflecting mind, that the text is not to be understood literally, but figuratively. It is doubtless a parable, a fable, and its moral is one of the most interesting and instructive lessons in the New Testament.
I have not room here for the interpretation I gave the passage; but the preacher, at the close, admitted that the view presented seemed reasonable, and was, perhaps, correct. A rum-seller here told me, that he had been through religion, and was satisfied it was all humbug. I told him that he would, perhaps, be improved if religion should go through him.
I also lectured several times in Chillicothe. My subjects were, “Sin”—“Death”—“Hell”—“Salvation.” One man remarked to me, after hearing the discourse on Sin,
“Jesus says, ‘If you die in your sins, where God and Christ are, ye cannot come.’”
“My friend, there is no such passage in the Bible.”
“Ah, but there is,” said he; “I have read it many a time.”
“But you are mistaken. The passage you quoted at, reads thus: ‘Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and ye shall die in your sins; whither I go ye cannot come.’ John viii. 21. You perceive the true reading is very different from your version. These words were addressed to the Jews. A short time afterwards he had occasion to address his disciples; and mark what he said to them. ‘Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me; and as I said to the Jews, Whither I go ye cannot come, so say I unto you.’ John xiii. 33. Now, if Jesus when he told the Jews that they could not go to him, meant they should not inherit immortal blessedness, he must have meant the same when he addressed the disciples, for you perceive, he said precisely the same to them. But nothing of the kind was intended when he addressed friend or foe. He only meant in both cases, that they could not much longer follow him from place to place, as they had been in the habit of doing. He was about to depart from this world, and they would have to remain on earth.
“Many of the Jews did die in their sins, but it does not thence follow that they are condemned to sin forever. Because a man sins this year it does not follow he will sin all his life-time. God is not so in love with sin that he will compel a soul to sin eternally because this life was mis-spent. What would be thought of a farmer who compelled a man to cut down every tree in his orchard because he had cut down one tree? And will the God of wisdom and goodness, compel all to sin eternally who die sinners? If yea, then nearly all mankind will be forever lost, for nearly all die sinners in some degree. The law is, ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and strength, and thy neighbor as thyself.’ Now, who obeys that law? But few indeed, I fear. Nearly all mankind, then, will be forever lost if there is no redemption for those who die sinners.