When William IV. Was King

by John Ashton

"The Hon. C. Berkeley said that he now brought this question, for the second time, under the consideration of the House, because he was perfectly convinced that his motion would have been carried last session, if many friends of the measure had not happened to have been in the House at the time. (Laughter.) The Committee, who had agreed to the report which had just been read, had been fairly chosen, and they had considered how the object could be attained at the least possible expense; and, for his own part, he could not see why ladies should not be admitted, when they were placed in such a situation that they could not interfere in the debate. (Great laughter.) It had been said that the presence of ladies during the debates would distract the attention of honourable members, although he must confess that if the ladies were in the House it would make no difference in his thoughts. (Loud and continued laughter.) Perhaps some gentlemen, at least, who were made of so much more inflammable materials (shouts of laughter) might be so affected. The ladies were once admitted to that gallery, and the debates were not prolonged then, though it was now the fashion to say that the debates would be prolonged if they were admitted, and that many persons who were not now in the habit of speaking would be generally getting up to address the House when the ladies were present; but, on the other hand, he believed there were many who spoke much more for the papers than the ears of their audience (great laughter), who would not speak if the ladies were there to hear them. He would not detain the House, but would conclude by moving that, 'It is the opinion of this House that the Resolution of the Select Committee appointed in 1835 to consider the means of admitting ladies to a portion of the Strangers' Gallery, together with the plan of Sir R. Smirke, should be adopted, and that means should be taken to carry it into effect, with as little delay as possible.'

"Mr. Potter, amidst the loudest laughter, begged leave to second the motion. He could not possibly conceive any good reason which could be assigned against it. The plan had been tried in the old House, in the Ventilator. (A laugh.) Surely the female sex were as much interested in the proceedings of that House as the other, and if any portion of them were disposed to hear the debates, they ought not to refuse them. It was well known that the ladies exercised an important influence in the State, and why should it not be properly exercised? Why should the beneficial influence of a virtuous and enlightened mother (a laugh) not be exerted over her son who had a seat in Parliament? And if the wife of any hon. member wished to hear the debates, why should she not have the opportunity? They were admitted into the French Chamber at Paris, and it was well known that the ladies had seats assigned to them. He had seen them there pay as much attention to the debates as any one else, and he had never witnessed the slightest appearance of levity. (Loud laughter.) The ladies were also admitted to hear the debates of Congress at Washington, and surely we ought not to act in this exclusive and Oriental manner.

"Mr. Kearsley said that he did hope that every hon. member, who was blessed with a bride or daughters, would give his negative to this idle, this ridiculous proposition. (Loud laughter.)

"Mr. O'Connell remarked that in the Irish Parliament ladies were admitted to hear the debates, and he was afraid the detail of the cause of their being admitted would throw something like a censure upon the members of the Irish Senate. However, he would state that at that time hospitalities of a particular kind prevailed in Ireland, and the consequence of these hospitalities was that many members came drunk to the House. (Laughter.) The remedy proposed was that ladies should be admitted. This was tried, and from that moment not a single person was seen drunk. He did not say there existed the same reasons for admitting the ladies into this House (laughter), but at all events he thought there existed no good reason why they should be excluded.

"Mr. Villiers said that he was neither blessed with daughters nor a bride-elect (laughter), but still he thought no sufficient grounds had been shown to justify this motion. He was, however, glad to find that every class of persons in the community was represented in this House. There were the friends of the people, the friends of the Church, the farmers' friends, and, now, the friends of the ladies. (Laughter.) He thought, however, the hon. and gallant member for Cheltenham, by his motion, proposed an organic change. (Renewed laughter.) But it seemed to him that no excitement existed outside of the House on the subject; he was not aware that any petitions had been presented with reference to it. The hon. and gallant member had said that he did not see any harm in the measure; but would the matter end here? Might not hon. Members have some ulterior views? (Loud laughter.) The hon. and gallant member proposed to admit the ladies into the gallery, but were there not places under the gallery? Were there not the lobby and the library, and might not some hon. member push the measure further and give them admission there, much to the inconvenience of the House? (Hear, hear.) But even if admitted to the gallery only, in what way, he begged to inquire, were hon. members to exercise their privilege? They could not admit as many ladies as gentlemen—nay, even they could not accommodate as many ladies as there were Irish members. Was the power of granting admissions to be vested in the Minister for the Home Department; and, if so, might not he be charged with undue influence in admitting ladies of a certain description? (Loud laughter.) Might not the champion of some old lady charge him with corrupt motives in excluding her? In short, the more the subject was considered the more difficult it seemed. (Renewed laughter.) He hoped, if the hon. and gallant member for Cheltenham would, if he meant to introduce a bill upon the subject, have it circulated in all the populous towns of the country, so that during the autumn its effects might be ascertained. (Great laughter.) At present hon. members were unacquainted with the complicated details of the measure; they did not know all the bearings of the proposition, though it had been brought forward for two sessions running; and, therefore, he hoped that the hon. and gallant member would consent to postpone it. (General laughter.)

"The House divided. For the motion, 139; against, 40."

The Times of May 9th, quoting the Glasgow Chronicle, has a paragraph headed

"Royal Charley back again.

"We have received the following account of the departure from Greenock of Charles Edward Stuart and his brother, John Sobieski Stuart. They are said to be grandsons of Charles Edward Stuart, the Pretender. Of course they must be illegitimate, as the present King of Sardinia is heir to that prince:—

"'On Friday Charles Edward Stuart and his brother John, grandsons to the Pretender, embarked on board the Foyle for Londonderry. The scions of the house of Stuart belong to Italy, and have been on a tour to the north of Scotland, visiting the places named in the romantic adventures of their ancestor, the young Ascarvius. They are good-looking young men, and bear a strong resemblance to the portraits of "Royal Charley." They speak the Italian, French, English, Gaelic, and Irish languages, and are always attired in the Highland costume of the house of Stuart, and accompanied by a piper of the clan. They have never worn any other dress than the kilt and its Highland appendages, and their seal is a crown. At the time they embarked the piper played some of the principal Jacobite airs, composed as laments at the misfortunes of the Pretender. A number of Highlanders of the higher and middle classes went on board to have a peep at the strangers, and although they to a man were all of the High Tory caste, yet they looked with veneration on the Stuarts. The visitors and passengers assembled in the cabin seemed determined to honour the memory of "Royal Charley" by quaffing bumpers of the best "Glenlivet." One of the company was deputed to ask permission (sic) of Charles Edward, who respectfully declined the honour intended, and said it was not proper under present circumstances. The brothers expressed their high gratification at the enthusiasm of the Greenock Celtic Tories, and seemed much affected.'"