John Knox. If such as fear God have occasion to praise Him because idolatry is maintained, the servants of God are despised, wicked men are placed again in honour and authority, and, finally, because vice and impiety overflow this whole realm without punishment, then have we occasion to rejoice and to praise God. But if those and the like actions are wont to provoke God's vengeance against realms and nations, then, in my judgment, the godly within Scotland ought to lament and mourn; and so to prevent[234] God's judgments, lest He, finding all in a like security, strike in His hot indignation, perchance beginning at such as think they offend not.
Lethington. That is a head wherein ye and I never agreed; for how are ye able to prove that ever God struck or plagued a nation or people for the iniquity of their prince, if they themselves lived godly?
Knox. I looked, my Lord, to have audience, until I had absolved the other two parts; but seeing that it pleases your Lordship to cut me off before the midst, I will answer your question. The Scripture of God teaches me that Jerusalem and Judah were punished for the sin of Manasseh; and if ye will allege that they were punished because they were wicked, and offended with their king, and not because their king was wicked, I answer that, albeit the Spirit of God makes for me, saying in express words, "For the sin of Manasseh," yet will I not be so obstinate as to lay the whole sin, and the plagues that followed, upon the king, and utterly absolve the people. I will grant you that the whole people offended with the king: but how, and in what fashion, I fear that ye and I shall not agree. I doubt not but that the great multitude accompanied him in all the abominations which he did; for idolatry and a false religion have ever been, are, and will be pleasing to the most part of men. To affirm that all Judah committed really the acts of his impiety, is but to affirm that which neither has certainty, nor yet appearance of truth. Who can think it possible that all those of Jerusalem should so shortly turn to external idolatry, considering the notable reformation in the days of Hezekiah, a short time before? But yet, the text says, "Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err." True it is; for the one part willingly followed him in his idolatry, and the other, by reason of his authority, suffered him to defile Jerusalem, and the temple of God, with all abominations. So were they all criminal for his sin; the one by act and deed, the other by suffering and permission. Even so, all Scotland is guilty this day of the Queen's idolatry, and ye, my Lords, especially, above all others.
Lethington. Well, that is the chief head wherein we never agreed; but of that we shall speak hereafter. What will ye say as touching the moving of the people to have a good opinion of the Queen's Majesty, and as concerning obedience to be given to her authority, as also of the form of the prayer which commonly ye use, and so on?
Knox. My Lord, a good conscience will not suffer me to move the people more earnestly, or to pray otherwise than heretofore I have done. He who knows the secrets of hearts knows that, privately and publicly, I have called to God for the Queen's conversion, and have willed the people to do the same, showing them the dangerous estate wherein not only she herself stands, but also the whole realm, by the reason of her indurate blindness.
Lethington. That is exactly wherein we find greatest fault. Your extremity against the Queen's Mass, in particular, passes measure. Ye call her a slave to Satan; ye affirm that God's vengeance hangs over the realm by reason of her impiety; and what is this else but to rouse up the heart of the people against Her Majesty, and against them that serve her?
There was heard an exclamation from the rest of the flatterers that such extremity could not profit. The Master of Maxwell said in plain words, "If I were in the Queen's Majesty's place, I would not suffer such things as I hear."
Knox. If the words of preachers shall always be wrested to the worst construction, then will it be hard to speak of anything so circumspectly (provided that the truth be spoken) that it shall not escape the censure of the calumniator. The most vehement, and, as ye put it, excessive manner of prayer that I use in public is this, "O Lord, if it be Thy pleasure, purge the heart of the Queen's Majesty from the venom of idolatry, and deliver her from the bondage and thraldom of Satan in which she has been brought up, and yet remains, for the lack of true doctrine; and let her see, by the illumination of Thy Holy Spirit, that there is no means to please Thee but by Jesus Christ, Thy only Son, and that Jesus Christ cannot be found but in Thy holy Word, nor yet received but as it prescribes; which is, to renounce our own wisdom and preconceived opinion, and worship Thee as Thou commandest; that in so doing she may avoid that eternal damnation which abides all who are obstinate and impenitent unto the end; and that this poor realm may also escape that plague and vengeance which inevitably follow idolatry, maintained against Thy manifest Word and the open light thereof." This, said he, is the form of my common prayer, as yourselves can witness. Now, I would hear what is worthy of reprehension in it.
Lethington. There are three things that I never liked. The first is that ye pray for the Queen's Majesty with a condition, saying, "Illuminate her heart, if it be Thy good pleasure." It may appear from these words that ye doubt of her conversion. Where have ye the example of such prayer?