Do you not consider one of these mis-applications to be the injudicious use of the labour of horses, instead of that of men, women and children?—I do consider that to be a great mis-application of the labour of horses. I am afraid that gentlemen may understand, from what I said, that frauds are committed to the amount of one-eighth, but I meant no such thing; I meant the loss arising from mis-application generally. I have in general found a great deal more materials put upon the road than are necessary, and I am of opinion that is one of the chief causes of the waste of the public money.
Do you think the loss arises, in most instances, from mistake, or from any abuse in regard to the power and patronage which the situation confers?—I think it proceeds from mistakes and ignorance mostly.
Please to explain to the Committee in what way you think the labour of men, women and children, may be substituted for that of horses?—I have generally found that a much greater quantity of materials have been carted to the roads than are necessary, and therefore the increase of horse-labour has been beyond any useful purpose, and that generally the roads of the kingdom contain a supply of materials sufficient for their use for several years, if they were properly lifted and applied; this is to be entirely done by men, women, and children, men lifting the roads, and women and boys, and men past labour, breaking the stones which were lifted up.
By lifting the road, you mean turning it up with the pickaxe?—Yes; that I consider as man’s work; taking up the materials and breaking stones, I consider the work of women and children, and which indeed ought to have been done before those materials had been laid down.
How deep do you go in lifting the roads?—That depends upon circumstances, but I have generally gone four inches deep; I take the materials up four inches deep, and having broken the larger pieces, I put them back again.
Please to explain to the Committee the mode of breaking the stones so as to admit of the labour of men, women and children?—When the stones of an old road have been taken up, they are generally found of the size that women and boys can break them with small hammers, and therefore I would propose to employ these people to break those stones always before they are laid back in the roads.
Is it your plan for those people to break those stones standing, or in a sitting posture?—Always in a sitting posture: because I have found that persons sitting will break more stones than persons standing, and with a lighter hammer.
Does that apply to all materials?—To all materials universally.
Does the plan which you have mentioned of breaking up the roads, apply to gravel roads, or only to those roads composed of hard stones?—In gravel roads and in some other roads it would be impossible to break them up to any advantage; and in several places which I will explain, I should think it unprofitable to lift a road at all. There is a discretion of the surveyor, or the person who has the execution of the work, which must be exercised. I did not order the road in the neighbourhood of Reading to be lifted, but I directed wherever a large piece of flint was seen, it should be taken up, broken, and put down again; and I directed the road to be made perfectly clean—I am speaking of a gravel road now—and I directed that additional gravel should be prepared in the pits by screening the dirt very clean from it, breaking all the large pieces and bringing that upon the road in very light coats not exceeding two inches at a time; and when those coats were settled, to bring others of very clean materials upon the road, until it settled into a solid smooth hard surface, and which the coachmen in their mode of expression, say “runs true.” The wheel runs hard upon it; it runs upon the nail.
Uninfluenced by the state of the weather?—Perfectly so.